As the article states, there are ways to get around this requirement to install Windows 11. But it is a little worrying to think about a Windows Update potentially breaking the operating system if...
As the article states, there are ways to get around this requirement to install Windows 11.
But it is a little worrying to think about a Windows Update potentially breaking the operating system if you don't have TPM.
Businesses will definitely not want to modify the installer or take this risk, so Windows 11 is going to result in tons of e-waste.
Oversized CPUs with fewer lanes of PCIe 3, which means reduced GPU performance with newer video cards. TPM 2.0 has been standard for a while, so affected devices will probably only have limited...
Oversized CPUs with fewer lanes of PCIe 3, which means reduced GPU performance with newer video cards. TPM 2.0 has been standard for a while, so affected devices will probably only have limited utility for consumers and enthusiasts. They won't be great for running recent games, for instance.
I'm skeptical that the availability of older, cheaper workstations is much of a bright side in this instance.
TPM 2.0 (Trusted Platform Module 2.0) is a dedicated processor on modern computers that provides hardware-based security functions and serves as a trusted hardware component for storing sensitive data, including encryption keys and other security credentials.
Having worked with this kind of stuff at Android - in practice it's mostly used for DRM keys. Some software uses attestation keys (not sure if Windows is attempting to support that) to detect...
Having worked with this kind of stuff at Android - in practice it's mostly used for DRM keys. Some software uses attestation keys (not sure if Windows is attempting to support that) to detect tampering with the OS.
Riot Games uses TPM as a non-fungible form of hardware ID for their anti-cheat software. At present, they can't actually trust Windows 11's TPM requirement due to the existence of workarounds, so...
Exemplary
Riot Games uses TPM as a non-fungible form of hardware ID for their anti-cheat software. At present, they can't actually trust Windows 11's TPM requirement due to the existence of workarounds, so they instead load early in the boot sequence in order to roll their own chain of trust.
TPMs are also used to encrypt your saved passwords in your browser (and other programs that use the right OS APIs) so that they can only be decrypted if you've logged in to the OS with your...
TPMs are also used to encrypt your saved passwords in your browser (and other programs that use the right OS APIs) so that they can only be decrypted if you've logged in to the OS with your password or PIN, and to set limits on password/PIN attempts so that you can use a short password/PIN locally and still benefit from encryption. This helps protect your data if your computer is physically stolen. Without a TPM, there's no way you could have a short 4-digit PIN that safely encrypts your saved passwords because they'd be too easy to brute-force.
I still don't comprehend how 4-digit pin is safer than using (strong, long) password. Given that this 4-digit pin (that offers 10000 combinations, actually less because you also have to rule out...
I still don't comprehend how 4-digit pin is safer than using (strong, long) password.
Given that this 4-digit pin (that offers 10000 combinations, actually less because you also have to rule out many repeating ones like 1111 or 1122 etc. that are not allowed) is all that keeps my TPM saved passwords secured, I'm not feeling secure at all.
Well, I don't use Windows in the first place, so this discussion is quite academic...
I'm wondering if that's true about the e-waste. Perhaps most businesses have already done an upgrade cycle, so their computers are fine? TPM 2.0 was released 10 years ago. When did laptops start...
I'm wondering if that's true about the e-waste. Perhaps most businesses have already done an upgrade cycle, so their computers are fine?
TPM 2.0 was released 10 years ago. When did laptops start including it routinely? How many are still in use? It would be good to see some statistics.
I don't entirely understand how TPM works, but my situation was as follows: Built a new gaming PC in 2020, like right before lockdown. ASRock X570 mobo with a R5 3600X CPU. Did not have a TPM....
I don't entirely understand how TPM works, but my situation was as follows:
Built a new gaming PC in 2020, like right before lockdown. ASRock X570 mobo with a R5 3600X CPU. Did not have a TPM. Found out because I was interested in upgrading to Win11.
About 2yrs, upgraded the CPU to an R7 5800X3D and now apparently I do have a TPM. Even though I thought TPMs were a mobo component, not a CPU component (was initially told I'd have to buy a TPM chip). So now I can upgrade to Win 11.
Either way, the fact that a MOBO and/or CPU in 2020 didn't have TPM was surprising. But you're right that most businesses that are on a "standard" replacement cycle should have computers that do have them by now. I think if one wants to use BitLocker, the computer has to have a TPM. And BitLocker is pretty widely used in business.
You do have a TPM, just not a hardware TPM. It just needs to be enabled in your BIOS menu (likely labeled fTPM or something similar, meaning firmware TPM). Motherboard manufacturers did not start...
Built a new gaming PC in 2020, like right before lockdown. ASRock X570 mobo with a R5 3600X CPU. Did not have a TPM.
You do have a TPM, just not a hardware TPM. It just needs to be enabled in your BIOS menu (likely labeled fTPM or something similar, meaning firmware TPM). Motherboard manufacturers did not start enabling it by default until Windows 11 released.
Windows 11 does not require a hardware TPM, a firmware TPM is fine. The only downside is that updating or resetting your BIOS will clear the firmware TPM, so make sure you back up your bitlocker key if you end up using bitlocker. I would also make sure your BIOS is up to date before enabling it for the first time just because AMD's implementation was still a little finnicky back in 2020.
The key there is that you built your own computer. TPM are one of the only situations where prebuilt computers have been better than custom builds for a long time. The most visible benefit of a...
The key there is that you built your own computer. TPM are one of the only situations where prebuilt computers have been better than custom builds for a long time. The most visible benefit of a TPM is to enable Bitlocker, which allows all the files on your hard drive to be encrypted. You can enable bitlocker without a TPM, but you need to type in a password before your computer can boot, so almost nobody does that. Businesses wanted TPM to enable bitlocker to protect company data. Microsoft also enables bitlocker and requires a TPM for windows 10 systems, but only for OEM systems. So if you went to a store and bought a Dell, Lenovo, Asus, or some other computer, even back in the windows 10 days, you would have a TPM and have bitlocker enabled by default. However that was not required for retail versions of Windows 10, which is what you installed on your custom desktop. (I am not sure how long Microsoft has required TPM for windows 10, but I know it was for much of its life; unless you bought a new W10 machine right when W10 was new, it probably has a TPM)
A TPM is a chip that has to communicate with the CPU. So it needs to either be installed directly on the motherboard or installed on a daughterboard (the chip upgrade you mention). Newer CPUs include the chip directly on the CPU package (or emulate it, but the effect is the same), so they don’t need a module on the motherboard. Before that addition, consumer and business computers had a TPM anyway because of the Windows 10 OEM requirement. Motherboards for custom builds usually did not have a TPM because people who build computers didn’t want to pay extra to have it included. Now that they are included directly on the CPU, they don’t have to pay extra.
In short, any business that upgrades their computers with some sort of regularity will already have TPM on all their deployed devices. Any business who custom builds computers may have issues, but I am not convinced businesses like that exist. Any consumer who buys off the shelf computers probably already has a TPM. The only real issue is custom built consumer desktops since it took so long for TPM to make it to that platform. And since a high end desktop build has the potential to outlast a cheap dell while being a useful consumer computer.
This user building their own computer is not the problem, AM4 has had firmware TPM 2.0 since the platform was launched. However, an AM4 board bought in 2020 would have had this feature disabled by...
This user building their own computer is not the problem, AM4 has had firmware TPM 2.0 since the platform was launched. However, an AM4 board bought in 2020 would have had this feature disabled by default. Simply enabling fTPM will allow Windows 11 to install, though I would recommend updating the BIOS to the latest version provided by the manufacturer. This will enable it as it is the new default setting, and clear up some buggy behavior that used to exist with AMD's fTPM on Windows 11.
I've got my computer encrypted with LUKS with a FIDO2 key as the decryption and a ridiculous passphrase as a fallback. That way, /I/ trust my encryption unlock, someone else doesn't trust it on my...
I've got my computer encrypted with LUKS with a FIDO2 key as the decryption and a ridiculous passphrase as a fallback.
That way, /I/ trust my encryption unlock, someone else doesn't trust it on my behalf.
Like the R7 5800X3D, the R5 3600X supports fTPM too... so you should have been able to enable it and 'Secure Boot' in the BIOS then could have upgraded to Win 11. p.s. For proof, just Ctrl-f for...
Like the R7 5800X3D, the R5 3600X supports fTPM too... so you should have been able to enable it and 'Secure Boot' in the BIOS then could have upgraded to Win 11.
Huh, I'm fairly tech savvy, working in tech and all but I honestly didn't know my CPU was supported. Then again, I've avoided W11 like the plague for a while now so there's a chance that's the...
Huh, I'm fairly tech savvy, working in tech and all but I honestly didn't know my CPU was supported. Then again, I've avoided W11 like the plague for a while now so there's a chance that's the reason... or at least partially.
Yeah, I'm avoiding W11 like the plague too. I'm really really not looking forward to the October 2025 W10 support cutoff date, especially given all my friends' horrible experiences with W11 so...
Yeah, I'm avoiding W11 like the plague too. I'm really really not looking forward to the October 2025 W10 support cutoff date, especially given all my friends' horrible experiences with W11 so far. It might finally be time to switch over the Linux for me. But, TBH, I'm not looking forward to that either since I play a decent amount of AAA and online multiplayer games which still have lackluster (or even nonexistent) Linux support and compatibility, even through Proton. :(
I'm going to give a qualified "it's not that bad" for Windows 11, since I was in the same boat until recently, having heard lots of horror stories. I built my new system, enabled local login while...
I'm going to give a qualified "it's not that bad" for Windows 11, since I was in the same boat until recently, having heard lots of horror stories.
I built my new system, enabled local login while installing Windows 11, disabled all the optional stuff that it prompts you with like telemetry and location data, added my Microsoft account post install and account setup, configured Windows help, and... it's fine. Pretty much like Windows 10.
That being said, I think some of the things that annoy people are mitigated by the following:
I use the pro version, which let's me avoid some of the annoying features.
I use adguard DNS and network layer controls to limit access to ad networks, so maybe I'm not seeing things other people do.
I use OneDrive and office through a Microsoft family subscription, so I don't get nagged to enable those things.
I run two windows 11 boxes, two Arch boxes, and a zillion Ubuntu VM's and containers. And Windows 11 is fine for workloads and use cases that leverage the Microsoft ecosystem and tool chain just the same way MacOS is fine for use cases that lean into the Apple ecosystem. I didn't feel like I had to hack apart the os or use the registry to configure things how I wanted. Disabling the stuff I disliked in the pro version seems fine, and if there is something outside of that my overarching DNS and network filters take care of it.
That said, if your goal is to de-microsoft your digital life, then Linux is going to be your friend. But if that isn't your goal, it's not hard to have an ad and nag free experience on Windows 11 if you are leaning into the ecosystem vs swimming against the current.
I appreciate the advice, but TBH, I'm not worried about those kind of issues. I've worked in IT most of my life, and have been firmly entrenched in the Windows ecosystems for decades (since the...
I appreciate the advice, but TBH, I'm not worried about those kind of issues. I've worked in IT most of my life, and have been firmly entrenched in the Windows ecosystems for decades (since the MS-DOS days), so I can deal with the most common issues just fine on my own. But the issues a bunch of my friends have been encountering on Win 11 that concern me most are other, more obscure and harder to diagnose/fix problems.
E.g. My buddy, who I very recently helped build a new PC for, was having bizarre networking issues. Most sites would load just fine, but YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch were failing to load properly on every single browser... but only when he was using his Ethernet card. They would all work just fine on his Wifi. We were worried that his mobo might be defective, but rather than RMA I had him try a bunch of things first like connecting directly to his modem, buying a new CAT6e cable, uninstalling and reinstalling all his network drivers, and even buying a new PCIe LAN card to see if everything worked using it. But the PCIe card had the exact same issues, so we knew at that point that it wasn't a defective mobo. And it took us ages of additional troubleshooting (and a lucky reddit post discovery) to figure out the cause was Win 11's TCP/UDP/IPv4/IPv6 Checksum Offloading and Large Send Offload features, which once disabled fixed everything.
And those kind of issues are only solved on a platform with time; Time that Win 11 hasn't yet had enough of for everyone to work out all the kinks.
That is kind of my complaint with Windows direction in recent years, and is part of what made me switch towards Linux. I get that every operating system suggests a specific workflow, but Microsoft...
if you are leaning into the ecosystem vs swimming against the current
That is kind of my complaint with Windows direction in recent years, and is part of what made me switch towards Linux. I get that every operating system suggests a specific workflow, but Microsoft feels pushier about that than others. Especially as my workflow started to not align with Microsoft's workflow, I felt Windows was getting more frustrating to use. I understand that Linux also has their preferred workflows they want you to use, but on Linux it feels more open to the idea of modifying the OS to fit to your workflow than Microsoft
That's fair, Microsoft has very opinionated software implementations. Everything from the OS to azure has a lot of Microsoft opinions baked in. I found it especially noticeable in cloud offerings...
That's fair, Microsoft has very opinionated software implementations. Everything from the OS to azure has a lot of Microsoft opinions baked in. I found it especially noticeable in cloud offerings between azure and AWS, where Microsoft wants you to adopt a while platform workflow to get in and do something, whereas AWS let's to do whatever with minimal overhead.
And I feel like their opinionated software implementations are becoming more prevalent. Things like OneDrive pestering or the situation a few years ago when Microsoft Teams was not straightforward...
And I feel like their opinionated software implementations are becoming more prevalent. Things like OneDrive pestering or the situation a few years ago when Microsoft Teams was not straightforward to uninstall. I think I am more critical of Microsoft on this since they are the most common OS, that I feel they should be the most generic/unopinionated implementation but they are not.
I work for a large engineering firm. We utilize a large PC vendor for our desktops / laptops (it's HP). We started the "upgrade" cycle a couple months ago in order to be ready for Win 10 EOL next...
I work for a large engineering firm. We utilize a large PC vendor for our desktops / laptops (it's HP). We started the "upgrade" cycle a couple months ago in order to be ready for Win 10 EOL next year.
In some cases laptops only 2 years old are being tossed because they aren't compliant. The other killer is that equipment being replaced can't be repurposed (as a department loaner, or a spare machine for long-running tasks, etc.)
IT has estimated something like 3/4 of current deployed machines (for our US locations, not sure about the international numbers) need to be replaced due to Win 11 compliance, which equates to about 4,000 devices. So at my workplace at least, yes, this is wasteful.
I'd certainly like if that happened, but I'm not sure anyone along the line is putting in that effort. I know that when they are sent back the storage is removed and destroyed, so at the least...
I'd certainly like if that happened, but I'm not sure anyone along the line is putting in that effort. I know that when they are sent back the storage is removed and destroyed, so at the least they'd need new disks / SSDs to operate again.
My computer was built in 2020 and my CPU doesn't support TPM. A CPU is a very expensive purchase for me. I'm not buying another just to use Windows 11 that's for sure!
My computer was built in 2020 and my CPU doesn't support TPM. A CPU is a very expensive purchase for me. I'm not buying another just to use Windows 11 that's for sure!
I have at least two machines, possibly a third that are used daily, currently on Win 10 that don't have TPM. I'm debating if I should get around the requirements or just go ahead and install Linux...
I have at least two machines, possibly a third that are used daily, currently on Win 10 that don't have TPM. I'm debating if I should get around the requirements or just go ahead and install Linux when the time comes.
I've been using Linux on my Deck now for 2+ years and have a passing familiarity with it on other machines in my house and with as good as Proton has been, I figure it shouldn't be an issue. The two of my machines that definitely don't have it are used for gaming every day by my kids, which won't be a problem for Steam, but I know Bedrock Minecraft doesn't have a native Linux version yet, so that may be the end of Minecraft for my kids.
If they're desktops it's worth checking to see if there's a tpm slot as I was able to buy a ~£15 tpm chip and fulfil the requirements. Probably cheaper than buying java Minecraft to play via proton.
If they're desktops it's worth checking to see if there's a tpm slot as I was able to buy a ~£15 tpm chip and fulfil the requirements. Probably cheaper than buying java Minecraft to play via proton.
Two of them are and it's definitely something I've considered. The last could run my bedrock version via the Android version, as I've used Linux to play that particular one. Just obnoxious to have...
Two of them are and it's definitely something I've considered. The last could run my bedrock version via the Android version, as I've used Linux to play that particular one.
Just obnoxious to have Microsoft essentially phase out and attempt to create eWaste out of a perfectly good laptop just because they want to push everyone onto 11 for their data harvesting and ads. I'd rather switch to Linux in the long term, just annoying that a handful of the games my kids play won't be available if I do so.
Microsoft is weird about naming conventions, but I believe if you have “Minecraft: Bedrock Edition for PC” then you can get Java edition for free. A few years ago they decided to bundle the two...
Microsoft is weird about naming conventions, but I believe if you have “Minecraft: Bedrock Edition for PC” then you can get Java edition for free. A few years ago they decided to bundle the two editions together, so for new purchases you get both, and if you already own one from before they made this change, then you can get the other for free.
From Minecraft’s own help site:
Step 1) go to Microsoft Store listing for “Minecraft: Java & Bedrock for PC”
Step 2) sign in to the Microsoft store with your Microsoft account (that already owns one of them)
Step 3) once you’re signed in, the “Buy” button should be replaced with “Get”
I do have Java. The issue is that my kids play with controllers and Java doesn't support controllers outside of mods. The interface of Bedrock is built (partially) at least, with a controller in...
I do have Java. The issue is that my kids play with controllers and Java doesn't support controllers outside of mods. The interface of Bedrock is built (partially) at least, with a controller in mind, making it easier for my kids to figure out and navigate.
I don't know how you feel about mods, but there is a forge mod that enabled pretty solid controller support in Java. Installing forge and dropping a mod in the right folder is a maybe 5 minute job...
I don't know how you feel about mods, but there is a forge mod that enabled pretty solid controller support in Java. Installing forge and dropping a mod in the right folder is a maybe 5 minute job so it's something to consider if that's the only thing holding you back.
I play Java with controller mods on steam deck from time to time and it's not great. The problem isn't the controller so much as the rest of the game not being controller friendly, such as...
I play Java with controller mods on steam deck from time to time and it's not great. The problem isn't the controller so much as the rest of the game not being controller friendly, such as crafting.
It works in a pinch.
Tried the android app launchers on Linux but that has a whole other set of hacky jank.
I dearly wish for a proper bedrock Linux build. Or even that it could run with Proton
I haven't had too many issues with the android app thing once it's all setup. It's better than Java Edition on the deck... I would also prefer a better option though. I would buy Bedrock AGAIN if...
I haven't had too many issues with the android app thing once it's all setup. It's better than Java Edition on the deck...
I would also prefer a better option though. I would buy Bedrock AGAIN if they just sold it through Steam. Actually I'd probably buy at least 2 licenses for the family.
Personally my worry here is what a situation of universally available(or enough that those without could be safely ignored) tpm on the desktop platform under de facto control of one company, or...
Personally my worry here is what a situation of universally available(or enough that those without could be safely ignored) tpm on the desktop platform under de facto control of one company, or several companies could lead to.
It is far too easy to imagine remote attestation to simply kill adblockers for just an example if the user wants to use any of the mainstream web. Or just any software that is deemed unwanted.
Why is Microsoft still putting so much time and effort into Windows? Their real money makers are M365 and Azure. They should be giving away Windows for free, like they used to back in the day when...
Why is Microsoft still putting so much time and effort into Windows? Their real money makers are M365 and Azure. They should be giving away Windows for free, like they used to back in the day when they looked the other way when everyone was pirating MS-DOS and they wanted market share.
Because Windows is not purely supported through consumer licenses, far from it. The primary revenue is through enterprise and OEM volume licensing. On top of that, Windows is the primary means of...
Why is Microsoft still putting so much time and effort into Windows?
Because Windows is not purely supported through consumer licenses, far from it. The primary revenue is through enterprise and OEM volume licensing. On top of that, Windows is the primary means of onboarding consumers into online services.
They should be giving away Windows for free
Not unless they want to devalue the product in the enterprise and OEM realm as well. Nvidia's product strategy is similar, they have to maintain a perceived value in the eyes of the public in order to justify their enterprise product cost.
It’s still entirely possible to pirate full versions of Windows 11 — Microsoft hasn’t closed the loopholes that have existed for decades, so I think this is still on the table. It just requires a...
back in the day when they looked the other way when everyone was pirating MS-DOS
It’s still entirely possible to pirate full versions of Windows 11 — Microsoft hasn’t closed the loopholes that have existed for decades, so I think this is still on the table. It just requires a little more digging to find it than the internet of yesterdecade
As the article states, there are ways to get around this requirement to install Windows 11.
But it is a little worrying to think about a Windows Update potentially breaking the operating system if you don't have TPM.
Businesses will definitely not want to modify the installer or take this risk, so Windows 11 is going to result in tons of e-waste.
And tons of discounts on work center PCs with oversized CPUs!
Oversized CPUs with fewer lanes of PCIe 3, which means reduced GPU performance with newer video cards. TPM 2.0 has been standard for a while, so affected devices will probably only have limited utility for consumers and enthusiasts. They won't be great for running recent games, for instance.
I'm skeptical that the availability of older, cheaper workstations is much of a bright side in this instance.
What is a TPM?
From the article:
Having worked with this kind of stuff at Android - in practice it's mostly used for DRM keys. Some software uses attestation keys (not sure if Windows is attempting to support that) to detect tampering with the OS.
Riot Games uses TPM as a non-fungible form of hardware ID for their anti-cheat software. At present, they can't actually trust Windows 11's TPM requirement due to the existence of workarounds, so they instead load early in the boot sequence in order to roll their own chain of trust.
In Windows it's mostly used for encryption keys for Bitlocker, not DRM.
Although that can of course change, that's just how it is today.
TPMs are also used to encrypt your saved passwords in your browser (and other programs that use the right OS APIs) so that they can only be decrypted if you've logged in to the OS with your password or PIN, and to set limits on password/PIN attempts so that you can use a short password/PIN locally and still benefit from encryption. This helps protect your data if your computer is physically stolen. Without a TPM, there's no way you could have a short 4-digit PIN that safely encrypts your saved passwords because they'd be too easy to brute-force.
I still don't comprehend how 4-digit pin is safer than using (strong, long) password.
Given that this 4-digit pin (that offers 10000 combinations, actually less because you also have to rule out many repeating ones like 1111 or 1122 etc. that are not allowed) is all that keeps my TPM saved passwords secured, I'm not feeling secure at all.
Well, I don't use Windows in the first place, so this discussion is quite academic...
The TPM is able to enforce policies like time delays between attempts, and erasing keys after N failed attempts.
Now that makes sense. Thanks for the insight.
It's a part of the computer that other people can control and you can't ( the "trust" means they can trust it, not you - its doublespeak)
I'm wondering if that's true about the e-waste. Perhaps most businesses have already done an upgrade cycle, so their computers are fine?
TPM 2.0 was released 10 years ago. When did laptops start including it routinely? How many are still in use? It would be good to see some statistics.
I don't entirely understand how TPM works, but my situation was as follows:
Built a new gaming PC in 2020, like right before lockdown. ASRock X570 mobo with a R5 3600X CPU. Did not have a TPM. Found out because I was interested in upgrading to Win11.
About 2yrs, upgraded the CPU to an R7 5800X3D and now apparently I do have a TPM. Even though I thought TPMs were a mobo component, not a CPU component (was initially told I'd have to buy a TPM chip). So now I can upgrade to Win 11.
Either way, the fact that a MOBO and/or CPU in 2020 didn't have TPM was surprising. But you're right that most businesses that are on a "standard" replacement cycle should have computers that do have them by now. I think if one wants to use BitLocker, the computer has to have a TPM. And BitLocker is pretty widely used in business.
You do have a TPM, just not a hardware TPM. It just needs to be enabled in your BIOS menu (likely labeled fTPM or something similar, meaning firmware TPM). Motherboard manufacturers did not start enabling it by default until Windows 11 released.
Windows 11 does not require a hardware TPM, a firmware TPM is fine. The only downside is that updating or resetting your BIOS will clear the firmware TPM, so make sure you back up your bitlocker key if you end up using bitlocker. I would also make sure your BIOS is up to date before enabling it for the first time just because AMD's implementation was still a little finnicky back in 2020.
The key there is that you built your own computer. TPM are one of the only situations where prebuilt computers have been better than custom builds for a long time. The most visible benefit of a TPM is to enable Bitlocker, which allows all the files on your hard drive to be encrypted. You can enable bitlocker without a TPM, but you need to type in a password before your computer can boot, so almost nobody does that. Businesses wanted TPM to enable bitlocker to protect company data. Microsoft also enables bitlocker and requires a TPM for windows 10 systems, but only for OEM systems. So if you went to a store and bought a Dell, Lenovo, Asus, or some other computer, even back in the windows 10 days, you would have a TPM and have bitlocker enabled by default. However that was not required for retail versions of Windows 10, which is what you installed on your custom desktop. (I am not sure how long Microsoft has required TPM for windows 10, but I know it was for much of its life; unless you bought a new W10 machine right when W10 was new, it probably has a TPM)
A TPM is a chip that has to communicate with the CPU. So it needs to either be installed directly on the motherboard or installed on a daughterboard (the chip upgrade you mention). Newer CPUs include the chip directly on the CPU package (or emulate it, but the effect is the same), so they don’t need a module on the motherboard. Before that addition, consumer and business computers had a TPM anyway because of the Windows 10 OEM requirement. Motherboards for custom builds usually did not have a TPM because people who build computers didn’t want to pay extra to have it included. Now that they are included directly on the CPU, they don’t have to pay extra.
In short, any business that upgrades their computers with some sort of regularity will already have TPM on all their deployed devices. Any business who custom builds computers may have issues, but I am not convinced businesses like that exist. Any consumer who buys off the shelf computers probably already has a TPM. The only real issue is custom built consumer desktops since it took so long for TPM to make it to that platform. And since a high end desktop build has the potential to outlast a cheap dell while being a useful consumer computer.
This user building their own computer is not the problem, AM4 has had firmware TPM 2.0 since the platform was launched. However, an AM4 board bought in 2020 would have had this feature disabled by default. Simply enabling fTPM will allow Windows 11 to install, though I would recommend updating the BIOS to the latest version provided by the manufacturer. This will enable it as it is the new default setting, and clear up some buggy behavior that used to exist with AMD's fTPM on Windows 11.
A lot of people do this because the most common reason to FDE is in case someone yoinks your whole PC.
I've got my computer encrypted with LUKS with a FIDO2 key as the decryption and a ridiculous passphrase as a fallback.
That way, /I/ trust my encryption unlock, someone else doesn't trust it on my behalf.
Like the R7 5800X3D, the R5 3600X supports fTPM too... so you should have been able to enable it and 'Secure Boot' in the BIOS then could have upgraded to Win 11.
p.s. For proof, just Ctrl-f for "3600X":
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors
Huh, I'm fairly tech savvy, working in tech and all but I honestly didn't know my CPU was supported. Then again, I've avoided W11 like the plague for a while now so there's a chance that's the reason... or at least partially.
Yeah, I'm avoiding W11 like the plague too. I'm really really not looking forward to the October 2025 W10 support cutoff date, especially given all my friends' horrible experiences with W11 so far. It might finally be time to switch over the Linux for me. But, TBH, I'm not looking forward to that either since I play a decent amount of AAA and online multiplayer games which still have lackluster (or even nonexistent) Linux support and compatibility, even through Proton. :(
I'm going to give a qualified "it's not that bad" for Windows 11, since I was in the same boat until recently, having heard lots of horror stories.
I built my new system, enabled local login while installing Windows 11, disabled all the optional stuff that it prompts you with like telemetry and location data, added my Microsoft account post install and account setup, configured Windows help, and... it's fine. Pretty much like Windows 10.
That being said, I think some of the things that annoy people are mitigated by the following:
I use the pro version, which let's me avoid some of the annoying features.
I use adguard DNS and network layer controls to limit access to ad networks, so maybe I'm not seeing things other people do.
I use OneDrive and office through a Microsoft family subscription, so I don't get nagged to enable those things.
I run two windows 11 boxes, two Arch boxes, and a zillion Ubuntu VM's and containers. And Windows 11 is fine for workloads and use cases that leverage the Microsoft ecosystem and tool chain just the same way MacOS is fine for use cases that lean into the Apple ecosystem. I didn't feel like I had to hack apart the os or use the registry to configure things how I wanted. Disabling the stuff I disliked in the pro version seems fine, and if there is something outside of that my overarching DNS and network filters take care of it.
That said, if your goal is to de-microsoft your digital life, then Linux is going to be your friend. But if that isn't your goal, it's not hard to have an ad and nag free experience on Windows 11 if you are leaning into the ecosystem vs swimming against the current.
Hope that helps!
I appreciate the advice, but TBH, I'm not worried about those kind of issues. I've worked in IT most of my life, and have been firmly entrenched in the Windows ecosystems for decades (since the MS-DOS days), so I can deal with the most common issues just fine on my own. But the issues a bunch of my friends have been encountering on Win 11 that concern me most are other, more obscure and harder to diagnose/fix problems.
E.g. My buddy, who I very recently helped build a new PC for, was having bizarre networking issues. Most sites would load just fine, but YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch were failing to load properly on every single browser... but only when he was using his Ethernet card. They would all work just fine on his Wifi. We were worried that his mobo might be defective, but rather than RMA I had him try a bunch of things first like connecting directly to his modem, buying a new CAT6e cable, uninstalling and reinstalling all his network drivers, and even buying a new PCIe LAN card to see if everything worked using it. But the PCIe card had the exact same issues, so we knew at that point that it wasn't a defective mobo. And it took us ages of additional troubleshooting (and a lucky reddit post discovery) to figure out the cause was Win 11's TCP/UDP/IPv4/IPv6 Checksum Offloading and Large Send Offload features, which once disabled fixed everything.
And those kind of issues are only solved on a platform with time; Time that Win 11 hasn't yet had enough of for everyone to work out all the kinks.
That is kind of my complaint with Windows direction in recent years, and is part of what made me switch towards Linux. I get that every operating system suggests a specific workflow, but Microsoft feels pushier about that than others. Especially as my workflow started to not align with Microsoft's workflow, I felt Windows was getting more frustrating to use. I understand that Linux also has their preferred workflows they want you to use, but on Linux it feels more open to the idea of modifying the OS to fit to your workflow than Microsoft
That's fair, Microsoft has very opinionated software implementations. Everything from the OS to azure has a lot of Microsoft opinions baked in. I found it especially noticeable in cloud offerings between azure and AWS, where Microsoft wants you to adopt a while platform workflow to get in and do something, whereas AWS let's to do whatever with minimal overhead.
And I feel like their opinionated software implementations are becoming more prevalent. Things like OneDrive pestering or the situation a few years ago when Microsoft Teams was not straightforward to uninstall. I think I am more critical of Microsoft on this since they are the most common OS, that I feel they should be the most generic/unopinionated implementation but they are not.
I work for a large engineering firm. We utilize a large PC vendor for our desktops / laptops (it's HP). We started the "upgrade" cycle a couple months ago in order to be ready for Win 10 EOL next year.
In some cases laptops only 2 years old are being tossed because they aren't compliant. The other killer is that equipment being replaced can't be repurposed (as a department loaner, or a spare machine for long-running tasks, etc.)
IT has estimated something like 3/4 of current deployed machines (for our US locations, not sure about the international numbers) need to be replaced due to Win 11 compliance, which equates to about 4,000 devices. So at my workplace at least, yes, this is wasteful.
It seems odd that they couldn’t be turned into Chromebooks or Linux laptops. Maybe there are recyclers that could find a home for them?
I'd certainly like if that happened, but I'm not sure anyone along the line is putting in that effort. I know that when they are sent back the storage is removed and destroyed, so at the least they'd need new disks / SSDs to operate again.
My computer was built in 2020 and my CPU doesn't support TPM. A CPU is a very expensive purchase for me. I'm not buying another just to use Windows 11 that's for sure!
I have at least two machines, possibly a third that are used daily, currently on Win 10 that don't have TPM. I'm debating if I should get around the requirements or just go ahead and install Linux when the time comes.
I've been using Linux on my Deck now for 2+ years and have a passing familiarity with it on other machines in my house and with as good as Proton has been, I figure it shouldn't be an issue. The two of my machines that definitely don't have it are used for gaming every day by my kids, which won't be a problem for Steam, but I know Bedrock Minecraft doesn't have a native Linux version yet, so that may be the end of Minecraft for my kids.
If they're desktops it's worth checking to see if there's a tpm slot as I was able to buy a ~£15 tpm chip and fulfil the requirements. Probably cheaper than buying java Minecraft to play via proton.
Good news, it's native. As native as Java, anyway. Plenty of more-native launchers for it, too.
/noise
Two of them are and it's definitely something I've considered. The last could run my bedrock version via the Android version, as I've used Linux to play that particular one.
Just obnoxious to have Microsoft essentially phase out and attempt to create eWaste out of a perfectly good laptop just because they want to push everyone onto 11 for their data harvesting and ads. I'd rather switch to Linux in the long term, just annoying that a handful of the games my kids play won't be available if I do so.
Microsoft is weird about naming conventions, but I believe if you have “Minecraft: Bedrock Edition for PC” then you can get Java edition for free. A few years ago they decided to bundle the two editions together, so for new purchases you get both, and if you already own one from before they made this change, then you can get the other for free.
From Minecraft’s own help site:
Step 1) go to Microsoft Store listing for “Minecraft: Java & Bedrock for PC”
Step 2) sign in to the Microsoft store with your Microsoft account (that already owns one of them)
Step 3) once you’re signed in, the “Buy” button should be replaced with “Get”
I do have Java. The issue is that my kids play with controllers and Java doesn't support controllers outside of mods. The interface of Bedrock is built (partially) at least, with a controller in mind, making it easier for my kids to figure out and navigate.
Oh, interesting! Yeah that makes sense, I’ve never thought about controllers and Java. But I’m surprised that hasn’t been added yet
I don't know how you feel about mods, but there is a forge mod that enabled pretty solid controller support in Java. Installing forge and dropping a mod in the right folder is a maybe 5 minute job so it's something to consider if that's the only thing holding you back.
I play Java with controller mods on steam deck from time to time and it's not great. The problem isn't the controller so much as the rest of the game not being controller friendly, such as crafting.
It works in a pinch.
Tried the android app launchers on Linux but that has a whole other set of hacky jank.
I dearly wish for a proper bedrock Linux build. Or even that it could run with Proton
I haven't had too many issues with the android app thing once it's all setup. It's better than Java Edition on the deck...
I would also prefer a better option though. I would buy Bedrock AGAIN if they just sold it through Steam. Actually I'd probably buy at least 2 licenses for the family.
I'll have to give it a go if it comes to it. Mods don't bother me at all, I've been a PC gamer since the 90's :P
Personally my worry here is what a situation of universally available(or enough that those without could be safely ignored) tpm on the desktop platform under de facto control of one company, or several companies could lead to.
It is far too easy to imagine remote attestation to simply kill adblockers for just an example if the user wants to use any of the mainstream web. Or just any software that is deemed unwanted.
Why is Microsoft still putting so much time and effort into Windows? Their real money makers are M365 and Azure. They should be giving away Windows for free, like they used to back in the day when they looked the other way when everyone was pirating MS-DOS and they wanted market share.
Because Windows is not purely supported through consumer licenses, far from it. The primary revenue is through enterprise and OEM volume licensing. On top of that, Windows is the primary means of onboarding consumers into online services.
Not unless they want to devalue the product in the enterprise and OEM realm as well. Nvidia's product strategy is similar, they have to maintain a perceived value in the eyes of the public in order to justify their enterprise product cost.
It’s still entirely possible to pirate full versions of Windows 11 — Microsoft hasn’t closed the loopholes that have existed for decades, so I think this is still on the table. It just requires a little more digging to find it than the internet of yesterdecade
Not when it has over 100k stars on Github haha