Some new protections no fees for correcting name spelling errors digital boarding pass without mandatory app or account guaranteed adjacent seat for children below 14 without extra cost air...
Some new protections
no fees for correcting name spelling errors
digital boarding pass without mandatory app or account
guaranteed adjacent seat for children below 14 without extra cost
air passengers will be able to take the return flight of a two-way ticket even if they did not use the first flight, without incurring an additional fee
Timeline for implementation:
[this has] to be confirmed by Council by the beginning of August 2026. The updated rules would enter into force 20 days after publication in the Official Journal of the EU. From that moment the EU countries and companies will have one year to prepare for their implementation.
This is something I push back on at work occasionally: people like to dig in their heels about First Name and Last Name fields in systems being "good enough", but I always suggest Given Name and...
This is something I push back on at work occasionally: people like to dig in their heels about First Name and Last Name fields in systems being "good enough", but I always suggest Given Name and Family Name. (Global company that does plenty of business with partners in Japan and China.) It doesn't cover more esoteric naming conventions, but to a massive percentage of the world, the name given first is a family name, and it makes obvious sense to apply semantics rather than arbitrary order to their storage...
People’s names are written in ASCII.
I've actually been on the opposite side receiving end of this. Ordering things from Japan, I've had to use katakana substitutions for my name in the past. (This is mostly expected in a lot of scenarios, including on government documents. There's the notion of how a name is preferred to be styled and a legal name in pronounceable kana.)
People also believe that all currencies are decimalized with major and minor units. JPY, quite obviously, has only one unit.
When I was in Japan I tried to get in line online to eat at Hama Sushi… but that requires an account… which required like 5 tries of me attempting to figure out what values were acceptable in its...
When I was in Japan I tried to get in line online to eat at Hama Sushi… but that requires an account… which required like 5 tries of me attempting to figure out what values were acceptable in its name/address fields lmao.
(Now they won’t stop emailing me and their emails seemingly don’t have an unsubscribe link, but that’s a whole different issue)
These seem reasonable but I'm a bit confused by the last one. An example situation is like say I had a LHR->CDG round trip ticket and an unrelated issue on the train to the airport causes me to...
These seem reasonable but I'm a bit confused by the last one. An example situation is like say I had a LHR->CDG round trip ticket and an unrelated issue on the train to the airport causes me to miss my flight and I have to book a different flight for LHR->CDG. Is it just saying that I'm still entitled to my CDG->LHR return flight for no fee? I haven't experienced such a disruption before but seems fairly reasonable.
Yes. Airlines often cancel because you didn't use the first leg. They will also often cancel if you skip the second leg of a flight (sometimes it's cheaper to book a multi-city ticket X-Z via Y...
Yes. Airlines often cancel because you didn't use the first leg. They will also often cancel if you skip the second leg of a flight (sometimes it's cheaper to book a multi-city ticket X-Z via Y and then Y-X instead of just a roundtrip X-Y ticket).
Ah yeah I'd heard about the latter, think under the term "skip lagging". Making it easier to keep your itinerary if you miss the first leg of a journey makes sense to me. There have been many...
Ah yeah I'd heard about the latter, think under the term "skip lagging". Making it easier to keep your itinerary if you miss the first leg of a journey makes sense to me. There have been many times where I've seen frantic person or family show up to the gate just as the doors close and they now have to rush to rebook or do something else. Skiplagging is in a gray area to me and I don't want to start an argument in here so I'll just leave it at that lol.
Are they specifically targeting Ryanair at this point? That's all well and good, but I'll happily install the app if it means cheap tickets. Please please please don't regulate me out of cheap...
MEPs also secured passengers the right to obtain boarding passes digitally upon check-in, without any further request or obligation to have a user account or a specific application
Are they specifically targeting Ryanair at this point? That's all well and good, but I'll happily install the app if it means cheap tickets. Please please please don't regulate me out of cheap flights...
There's an awfully thin line between "we'll give you a discount if you use the app" and "we'll fine you if you don't." Most corporate apps aren't there to benefit you, so this legislation is a...
but I'll happily install the app if it means cheap tickets.
There's an awfully thin line between "we'll give you a discount if you use the app" and "we'll fine you if you don't." Most corporate apps aren't there to benefit you, so this legislation is a clear win as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a discount, it's that they started requiring an app for digital boarding passes some time ago. By cheap tickets I meant that they're in general one of the cheapest airlines in Europe. I...
It's not a discount, it's that they started requiring an app for digital boarding passes some time ago. By cheap tickets I meant that they're in general one of the cheapest airlines in Europe.
Most corporate apps aren't there to benefit you
I mean I don't really care, they provide me with cheap flights and I'm happy to support that initiative with something as mundane as installing an app. Seriously, do you really care if you open Ryanair app, Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat to pull up your boarding pass?
Yes, because it used to be that I would receive the digital boarding pass by email after booking, and I could display it using open source software on my open source mobile operating system,...
Yes, because it used to be that I would receive the digital boarding pass by email after booking, and I could display it using open source software on my open source mobile operating system, without Google Play entering into the equation. Or without having to fetch an app for every damned aspect of my life.
This is a greatly appreciated change and Ryanair can suck my balls.
This is something that 99.9% of people do not care about and is a strange basis for government regulation. If you're a frequent flyer, it's probably just convenient to have it. If you're not a...
I could display it using open source software on my open source mobile operating system, without Google Play entering into the equation
This is something that 99.9% of people do not care about and is a strange basis for government regulation.
Or without having to fetch an app for every damned aspect of my life.
If you're a frequent flyer, it's probably just convenient to have it. If you're not a frequent flyer, taking 2 minutes to install and subsequently delete an airline app is the least of the inconveniences that air travel brings.
Ryanair can suck my balls
And what exactly was stopping you from flying with another airline?
It doesn’t matter. Keeping things open is what matters. What everyone’s use case is or isn’t will be debated to death and it isn’t what’s important. Besides “you’re free to choose another...
It doesn’t matter. Keeping things open is what matters. What everyone’s use case is or isn’t will be debated to death and it isn’t what’s important.
Besides “you’re free to choose another airline”’is disingenuous because if nothing prevents them all from doing the same it’s just a race to the bottom and you don’t really have a choice.
Same as people saying “you’re free to work elsewhere” in response to how appalling working conditions are at company X. No you’re not, rent won’t pay itself and switching jobs isn’t something you do snapping your fingers. No regulation also leads to a race to the bottom here.
Not regardless of the cost, which is demonstrably more important to 99% of consumers. We are talking about a specific legislation in EU, where we can look at reality and notice that this is not at...
Keeping things open is what matters.
Not regardless of the cost, which is demonstrably more important to 99% of consumers.
Besides “you’re free to choose another airline”’is disingenuous because if nothing prevents them all from doing the same it’s just a race to the bottom and you don’t really have a choice.
We are talking about a specific legislation in EU, where we can look at reality and notice that this is not at all, and not even close to reality.
Same as people saying “you’re free to work elsewhere” in response to how appalling working conditions are at company X. No you’re not, rent won’t pay itself and switching jobs isn’t something you do snapping your fingers. No regulation also leads to a race to the bottom here.
What does this have to do with working conditions? You being upset at working conditions at company X doesn't mean every single piece of corporate regulation is good because the alternative is a race to the bottom.
How is it not? Would you say flying has become more dignified and pleasant since easy jet and Ryanair came about? Every other airline (including national carriers) have taken notice and have been...
We are talking about a specific legislation in EU, where we can look at reality and notice that this is not at all, and not even close to reality.
How is it not? Would you say flying has become more dignified and pleasant since easy jet and Ryanair came about? Every other airline (including national carriers) have taken notice and have been nickel and diming flyers since. “Oh you can charge people for taking luggage? And for the food? And for sitting next to one another?? Well let’s!” And now every airline (low-cost or not) is doing it.
Setting the floor of what is acceptable by law is a net win.
I could probably pay less rent by accepting to sleep in shifts with 4 other people in a one bedroom appartment. I’d be free not to if I didn’t like it, and I’d save a bunch of money (probably) by doing it. Yet that’s illegal and for good reason. I’d argue this is similar: you’re also setting a limit on what is acceptable for saving money, and sleeping in 4, 6h shifts isn’t acceptable (as far as human decency goes) no matter how much less it’d make the rent.
I never bring luggage, I bring my own sandwiches/fruit/snacks and paying more money for those things to be packaged into my 1.5-4 hour flight is just a waste of my money. Every single airline that...
How is it not? Would you say flying has become more dignified and pleasant since easy jet and Ryanair came about? Every other airline (including national carriers) have taken notice and have been nickel and diming flyers since. “Oh you can charge people for taking luggage? And for the food? And for sitting next to one another?? Well let’s!” And now every airline (low-cost or not) is doing it.
Setting the floor of what is acceptable by law is a net win.
I never bring luggage, I bring my own sandwiches/fruit/snacks and paying more money for those things to be packaged into my 1.5-4 hour flight is just a waste of my money. Every single airline that I've looked at in the past 5 years offers packages that include those things at a higher price if you wish to have them. Lufthansa gave us snacks last time I flew with it, so did LOT. So what you're saying is just not true, there are plenty of airlines that include things into your ticket, but I highly prefer flying for under 50 euros round trip without useless (for me) stuff baked into the price.
And it's not because to my knowledge only Ryanair at the moment requires an app to get the digital boarding pass. Which by the way you can just screenshot anyway.
I could probably pay less rent by accepting to sleep in shifts with 4 other people in a one bedroom appartment. I’d be free not to if I didn’t like it, and I’d save a bunch of money (probably) by doing it. Yet that’s illegal and for good reason. I’d argue this is similar: you’re also setting a limit on what is acceptable for saving money, and sleeping in 4, 6h shifts isn’t acceptable (as far as human decency goes) no matter how much less it’d make the rent.
Installing an app is a mundane action everybody does regularly, takes 2 minutes and you can delete it afterwards. This has nothing to do with committing to some sort of living arrangement.
But there is marginally zero cost to this. It's software. It's the easiest thing on the planet to send a boarding pass via email in six different formats. I could shit this out in my sleep with...
But there is marginally zero cost to this. It's software. It's the easiest thing on the planet to send a boarding pass via email in six different formats. I could shit this out in my sleep with one hand tied behind my back. It is significantly harder to maintain a complete application and keep in on multiple mobile app stores. It's not a cost thing. It's a control thing.
It's a customer retention thing, which makes more money for the company, which means they get to keep ticket prices lower for longer, which makes me extremely happy as I get to travel Europe for...
It's a control thing.
It's a customer retention thing, which makes more money for the company, which means they get to keep ticket prices lower for longer, which makes me extremely happy as I get to travel Europe for not very much money at all.
Let me get this straight. Ryan Air's customers who are incredibly price sensitive, will suddenly stop flying with Ryan Air if they aren't forced to use the app to receive their boarding pass,...
Let me get this straight. Ryan Air's customers who are incredibly price sensitive, will suddenly stop flying with Ryan Air if they aren't forced to use the app to receive their boarding pass, which is achievable at near zero marginal cost to Ryan Air (i.e. won't affect their prices). Ryan Air isn't retaining anyone for any other reason than it will transport them to where they want to go cheaper than anywhere else.
No? Customers that occasionally fly with Ryanair may choose them more frequently if they have their app on their phone because it's easier to check their flights there.
No? Customers that occasionally fly with Ryanair may choose them more frequently if they have their app on their phone because it's easier to check their flights there.
My 5 cents: I just think there shouldn't be any cheap flights like Ryanair. With or without app. It should be banned. It just destroys our planet and lives of people living in poor countries.
My 5 cents: I just think there shouldn't be any cheap flights like Ryanair. With or without app. It should be banned. It just destroys our planet and lives of people living in poor countries.
Strangely, governments do not exist purely to legislate on or regulate exactly and only what the general populace cares about, but instead to foster an environment which is more beneficial to...
This is something that 99.9% of people do not care about and is a strange basis for government regulation.
Strangely, governments do not exist purely to legislate on or regulate exactly and only what the general populace cares about, but instead to foster an environment which is more beneficial to them.
It happens that preventing harmful business practices falls within that goal- and the ways in which many of today's corporations handle and process our data, as well as restrict the ways in which we can do business, or otherwise interact, with them, are genuinely predatory, manipulative, and hostile.
From your comments across this entire thread, your attitude can seemingly be summed up as:
I don't care if other people are negatively affected by how a business conducts itself, as long as I get a discount because of it.
And don't pretend that Ryanair are the only company that employs these practices- or that other companies aren't also jumping on board. And you don't regulate against things only once every actor is doing them.
It's more beneficial to have higher availability of airplane travel within the EU than to prevent Ryanair promoting their app and have 99% of people use Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat instead....
Strangely, governments do not exist purely to legislate on or regulate exactly and only what the general populace cares about, but instead to foster an environment which is more beneficial to them.
It's more beneficial to have higher availability of airplane travel within the EU than to prevent Ryanair promoting their app and have 99% of people use Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat instead.
And don't pretend that Ryanair are the only company that employs these practices- or that other companies aren't also jumping on board.
Which EU airlines are forcing you to use their apps and which are jumping on board?
It happens that preventing harmful business practices falls within that goal- and the ways in which many of today's corporations handle and process our data, as well as restrict the ways in which we can do business, or otherwise interact, with them, are genuinely predatory, manipulative, and hostile.
Sure, but you saying it's predatory, manipulative or hostile doesn't actually make it so. It's a cheaper airline where you need to make some sacrifices compared to "regular" ones. I and many many others are completely okay with it. They're upfront with their conditions. Some people choose not to fly with them and that's completely okay. Nothing about this is unethical.
It's much better not to leak our society's data to data brokers via shady apps, so enabling consumers not to have to use the app is a net positive for a whole society. It's much more important...
It's much better not to leak our society's data to data brokers via shady apps, so enabling consumers not to have to use the app is a net positive for a whole society. It's much more important than comfort of an individual and I'm happy politicians see it.
I don't live in Europe, but if an airline forced me to download their shitty app to use their services, yeah, I'm not using that airline. That goes for pretty much any service - forcing me to use...
I don't live in Europe, but if an airline forced me to download their shitty app to use their services, yeah, I'm not using that airline. That goes for pretty much any service - forcing me to use their app feels like an excuse for them to harvest more of my data. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to just use their website and my email to do everything that needs to be done!
First of all, the app is quite convenient. Secondly, you are free to fly with another airline already. They already know where you're flying from and to, your passport details, the people you fly...
First of all, the app is quite convenient. Secondly, you are free to fly with another airline already.
forcing me to use their app feels like an excuse for them to harvest more of my data
They already know where you're flying from and to, your passport details, the people you fly with. What sensitive data are you protecting that Android permissions aren't capable of handling and their website is incapable of harvesting?
Genuinely curious what part of these responses is something based in reality and what is just a principled stance based on "company wants me to use an app = bad".
I can’t understand why you’re so eager to force people using apps? There is already a standard to display boarding pass without extra apps. Why is it such a big deal to force airlines (since they...
I can’t understand why you’re so eager to force people using apps? There is already a standard to display boarding pass without extra apps. Why is it such a big deal to force airlines (since they won’t do it themselves) to use it?
Prefer their app? Great you can still use it. Don’t want to? Well awesome there is also that option.
I really don’t get how more options and less vendor lockin is such a bad thing to revolt against.
Ryanair is able to offer cheap prices because they do things like force people to use their app, which leads to higher conversion rates in some higher margin product later. The removal of this...
Ryanair is able to offer cheap prices because they do things like force people to use their app, which leads to higher conversion rates in some higher margin product later. The removal of this means less conversion there, which ultimately leads to higher prices for the average ticket on Ryanair in the long run. Sometimes, it's good to allow companies to offer these kinds of experiences even if they're shitty because it results in more consumer choice in airline experiences (trade shitty experience for cheap ticket) overall, even if it results in fewer consumer choices in airline experiences for you specifically because you don't want to install their app.
Honestly the "higher margin" sounds like them charging people 60€ for not having the app installed. Like some folks can navigate predatory loan situations without drowning in them, but lots of...
Honestly the "higher margin" sounds like them charging people 60€ for not having the app installed. Like some folks can navigate predatory loan situations without drowning in them, but lots of people can't. Regulating larger harm makes sense. Especially when it's an exhorbitant cost compared to the tickets themselves.
It seems reasonable for a government to set a baseline regulatory expectation, such as you don't need to have a proprietary app to fly. You can have it, but you aren't required. That's in line with many other government regs.
Ryanair certainly isn't fighting this hard for its consumers, it's odd to see people fighting for it.
Yeah, given Ryanair's history of dark patterns, this is what I suspect as well. Ryanair's basically subsidizing the cost of tickets for some customers by banking on other customers making honest...
Honestly the "higher margin" sounds like them charging people 60€ for not having the app installed.
Yeah, given Ryanair's history of dark patterns, this is what I suspect as well. Ryanair's basically subsidizing the cost of tickets for some customers by banking on other customers making honest mistakes, which is a pretty shitty way to treat the people you're supposed to be serving.
I'm honestly surprised the regulation wasn't targeted at high cost fees - like payday loans the idea that a fee would be higher than the cost of a ticket (idk Ryanair's current pricing but based...
I'm honestly surprised the regulation wasn't targeted at high cost fees - like payday loans the idea that a fee would be higher than the cost of a ticket (idk Ryanair's current pricing but based on their historical pricing I'm assuming) or a very large percentage of it seems obviously predatory.
This boils down to "the company has more money, therefore they'll offer better service," which is a massive assumption that I've seen entirely too many times over the years. The most likely...
This boils down to "the company has more money, therefore they'll offer better service," which is a massive assumption that I've seen entirely too many times over the years.
The most likely outcome for a successful company making more money is that they'll start trying to make even more than that, not that they'll suddenly start offering better prices. That only happens in an environment of healthy competition... which means that "healthy competition" is seen as a barrier to further success. This is how monopolies develop. Amazon is obscenely successful — do you think they've utilized that success for the public good?
Ryanair does not force an app because it lets them offer cheaper tickets. They force an app because it makes them money.1 The cheaper tickets are there for the same reason, and they'd absolutely increase the price if they felt they could. They should not be treated like a charity.
1. Well, probably. There are a few other reasons I can come up with – "everyone else is doing it!" for one – but none of them are exactly good. The point stands, regardless.
Well I’m of the opinion that it’s better to trade ultra low prices for fairer business practices. Ryanair will still be a shitty airline to fly (miserable process throughout, everything is paid,...
Well I’m of the opinion that it’s better to trade ultra low prices for fairer business practices. Ryanair will still be a shitty airline to fly (miserable process throughout, everything is paid, faraway airports with transfer costs) but there will be a little more decency involved in their business practices.
And I also think that setting a floor for how low and demeaning businesses can go profits everyone because other airlines won’t be tempted to drop to that level.
Best case, the list of your installed applications, all accelerometer movements of your phone, every time you unlock and lock your phone, google advertisement profile id, and a lot of other stuff...
What sensitive data are you protecting that Android permissions aren't capable of handling and their website is incapable of harvesting?
Best case, the list of your installed applications, all accelerometer movements of your phone, every time you unlock and lock your phone, google advertisement profile id, and a lot of other stuff useful for fingerprinting and advertising.
Not saying the Ryanair app does all of that, just answering your specific question. And I've personally seen random marketplace apps notify me (not because Android enforces that, but probably just because they were careful about privacy regulations) after an update that they will now gather the list of all my installed apps to "protect me from viruses".
The app for me is inconvenient, because I primarily do things on a browser on a PC, not my phone. I don't download proprietary programs on my computer for no reason, because I don't know what...
The app for me is inconvenient, because I primarily do things on a browser on a PC, not my phone. I don't download proprietary programs on my computer for no reason, because I don't know what they're doing and they don't need to be on there. I feel the same way about my phone. The internet alone has worked to do airline transactions for decades, and I really don't think Ryanair created an app just for my "convenience" or "user experience". Why do you think Reddit tries to force everyone to download their shitty app? To be nice to their users?
It's extra effort to specifically build an app compared to making a website - why put in that extra effort unless the companies are gaining something extra from it? My stance is part principle and part experience of living in a "money first" capitalist hellhole. I don't want companies to have any of my data, and even though they get a lot of it, I'm not going to invite the obvious vampire onto my device.
I don't think you are presenting your boarding pass at the airport on a PC. Which is the only thing we're talking about, everything else can be done on a PC. This is off topic, but as someone from...
The app for me is inconvenient, because I primarily do things on a browser on a PC, not my phone.
I don't think you are presenting your boarding pass at the airport on a PC. Which is the only thing we're talking about, everything else can be done on a PC.
My stance is part principle and part experience of living in a "money first" capitalist hellhole.
This is off topic, but as someone from a post soviet republic, being born in a "capitalist hellhole" is why you get to complain about something like having to install an app for 2 minutes on your smartphone in order to take a flight.
This is actually super interesting - I don't know what your experience has been living in a post-Soviet republic, but it seems like my experience growing up elsewhere (with immigrant grandparents)...
This is actually super interesting - I don't know what your experience has been living in a post-Soviet republic, but it seems like my experience growing up elsewhere (with immigrant grandparents) was quite different from yours, and this has shaped our respective values and what we perceive to be a minor annoyance vs. a deeply foreboding or problematic trend. I never would have guessed something as mundane as airline tickets could be so divisive! So that's pretty neat. Thanks for sharing.
For the record, I either print my passes when I check in (and use them as bookmarks) or print from home. I'm actually looking to get rid of my smartphone and go back to a flip phone, but I have so many 2FA needs through work that I literally could not do my job without it. I hate it and I try not to use my phone for mindless dicking around, but focus primarily for communication (and occasionally taking photos and checking sports scores). I don't have mobile data and I like it that way - it helps minimize being addicted to having a computer in my pocket, but it is frustrating when services assume you absolutely must have a smartphone (like parking meters). Is it appropriate for me to be a Luddite when so much of the world is constantly online? I don't know, but there are plenty of older folks and rural folks here who do not have Internet access or use smartphones, and I'd like to think there's still room for them/me in society generally.
Yes, I understood. I wrote my point the way I did to try and make it more brief, but if a rewording helps: The app doesn't actually make anything cheaper for you. Even if it does save/make the...
It's not a discount, it's that they started requiring an app for digital boarding passes some time ago. By cheap tickets I meant that they're in general one of the cheapest airlines in Europe.
Yes, I understood. I wrote my point the way I did to try and make it more brief, but if a rewording helps: The app doesn't actually make anything cheaper for you.
Even if it does save/make the company money, there is no promise whatsoever that those savings will be passed on to you at all, much less for any extended length of time. This goes double in an environment where the shitty app is the expected default that everyone is used to having to deal with whether they like it or not, because if everyone's shit, then being shitty becomes free. The customer has no choice, and thus the company no longer needs to care about providing anything extra in exchange.
You get forced to download an app because inconveniencing and spying on you is beneficial for the company. It is an active detriment to you, whether you know it or not.
Seriously, do you really care if you open Ryanair app, Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat to pull up your boarding pass?
Yes. I don't want to be forced to use apps that I do not trust.
The app has nothing to do with this. I have a sneaking suspicion many of them either are already or would very much like to remove this choice entirely. Your accepting attitude of their decision...
It's not a promise, it's a fact that their flights are generally the cheapest ones around.
The app has nothing to do with this.
Great, you have that option: flying with another airline!
I have a sneaking suspicion many of them either are already or would very much like to remove this choice entirely. Your accepting attitude of their decision to make things more difficult for you makes it all the easier for that decision to become the norm, and for switching airlines to solve absolutely nothing. And preventing exactly that is a prime reason why this legislation now exists.
I'm concerned that explanation will fall on deaf ears however. It has already been pointed out to you how a race-to-the-bottom works, and you didn't listen to it purely under the assumption that the status quo would somehow continue forever. This feels thoroughly like you're responding just for the sake of arguing, so accordingly, this will be my last comment here.
You know, if you and @Lobachevsky go back and forth and neither of you budge, you both can equally be accused of having deaf ears. You're not guaranteed to be correct. @Lobachevsky thinks the...
You know, if you and @Lobachevsky go back and forth and neither of you budge, you both can equally be accused of having deaf ears. You're not guaranteed to be correct. @Lobachevsky thinks the tradeoff for lower prices is worth it. You don't think the profit generated by forcing an app on customers is passed on as savings. Some users think that regardless of savings or not, it's a step too far to require an app. No one is necessarily wrong.
Although I took a quick look at Ryanair and Lufthansa financials and the profit margins are roughly the same, which implies to me that Ryanair's weird pricing structure does pass on savings to customers, assuming that Ryanair has cheaper flights on average.
That would work better as an argument if my interlocutor had a different attitude with regards to other people, but there's a pattern here. Besides, the mean is not necessarily golden. That said,...
you both can equally be accused of having deaf ears.
That would work better as an argument if my interlocutor had a different attitude with regards to other people, but there's a pattern here. Besides, the mean is not necessarily golden.
That said, I appreciate that you took the time to understand my position.
[...] which implies to me that Ryanair's weird pricing structure does pass on savings to customers, assuming that Ryanair has cheaper flights on average.
That's possible, sure. I think that it's hard to be certain of that from indirect analysis that's likely missing many (possibly unobtainable) variables, but I was willing to accept that as a possibility anyways.
Thing is, to me, it doesn't really matter, because I still view it as the aforementioned race to the bottom. If Ryanair or any other for-profit airline secured enough of an advantage in the market, they'd stop offering the low prices, with no good reason to believe the app would go away or become better for it.
It's always been a race to the bottom since the beginning. But we reach an equilibrium state where if the airlines get too bad, another one will step in. See American Airlines flailing now, United...
It's always been a race to the bottom since the beginning. But we reach an equilibrium state where if the airlines get too bad, another one will step in. See American Airlines flailing now, United rising (even if United isn't the best), Spirit Airlines dying, Delta doing relatively well. But the weird games and price segmentation on the macro level has driven the cost of air travel down so far from where it has been before. Effectively, one set of flyers subsidize another set of flyers, given the cost of transporting each person is relatively similar.
Until they don't. I mentioned to you before that when competition becomes the biggest obstacle to further profit, competition becomes the biggest thing a corporation – now established and highly...
But we reach an equilibrium state where if the airlines get too bad, another one will step in.
Until they don't.
I mentioned to you before that when competition becomes the biggest obstacle to further profit, competition becomes the biggest thing a corporation – now established and highly successful – seeks to eliminate. Which is why anti-trust laws exist, but then that becomes the target, and you get lobbying, etc. You can't trust a market to inherently foster innovation; on its own, there is no equilibrium.
You don't actually need the app. You can get a boarding pass for free if you say that your phone died. They will probably even let you through with a printout, though I haven't tested that.
You don't actually need the app. You can get a boarding pass for free if you say that your phone died. They will probably even let you through with a printout, though I haven't tested that.
More about standards I’d say. A paper boarding pass is paper and portable. Gatekeeping it behind an app suddenly requires a functioning phone and app or you pay a fine
More about standards I’d say. A paper boarding pass is paper and portable. Gatekeeping it behind an app suddenly requires a functioning phone and app or you pay a fine
Not European, but Alaska Airlines requires an app. Last time I ran into this, someone didn't even have an account and Alaska couldn't print tickets. (Someone else had booked the flight.) They had...
Not European, but Alaska Airlines requires an app. Last time I ran into this, someone didn't even have an account and Alaska couldn't print tickets. (Someone else had booked the flight.) They had to download the app, create an account, then figure out how to link this account with whatever identifier they had, all before they could even get to security.
Saves money and lets them spy on you, so I'm sure it's the wave of the future.
Some new protections
Timeline for implementation:
They all seem very reasonable, and hopefully hard to loophole out of
You just know the folks who have had this happen have it happen all the time.
Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names
This is something I push back on at work occasionally: people like to dig in their heels about First Name and Last Name fields in systems being "good enough", but I always suggest Given Name and Family Name. (Global company that does plenty of business with partners in Japan and China.) It doesn't cover more esoteric naming conventions, but to a massive percentage of the world, the name given first is a family name, and it makes obvious sense to apply semantics rather than arbitrary order to their storage...
I've actually been on the opposite side receiving end of this. Ordering things from Japan, I've had to use katakana substitutions for my name in the past. (This is mostly expected in a lot of scenarios, including on government documents. There's the notion of how a name is preferred to be styled and a legal name in pronounceable kana.)
People also believe that all currencies are decimalized with major and minor units. JPY, quite obviously, has only one unit.
When I was in Japan I tried to get in line online to eat at Hama Sushi… but that requires an account… which required like 5 tries of me attempting to figure out what values were acceptable in its name/address fields lmao.
(Now they won’t stop emailing me and their emails seemingly don’t have an unsubscribe link, but that’s a whole different issue)
These seem reasonable but I'm a bit confused by the last one. An example situation is like say I had a LHR->CDG round trip ticket and an unrelated issue on the train to the airport causes me to miss my flight and I have to book a different flight for LHR->CDG. Is it just saying that I'm still entitled to my CDG->LHR return flight for no fee? I haven't experienced such a disruption before but seems fairly reasonable.
Yes. Airlines often cancel because you didn't use the first leg. They will also often cancel if you skip the second leg of a flight (sometimes it's cheaper to book a multi-city ticket X-Z via Y and then Y-X instead of just a roundtrip X-Y ticket).
Ah yeah I'd heard about the latter, think under the term "skip lagging". Making it easier to keep your itinerary if you miss the first leg of a journey makes sense to me. There have been many times where I've seen frantic person or family show up to the gate just as the doors close and they now have to rush to rebook or do something else. Skiplagging is in a gray area to me and I don't want to start an argument in here so I'll just leave it at that lol.
Are they specifically targeting Ryanair at this point? That's all well and good, but I'll happily install the app if it means cheap tickets. Please please please don't regulate me out of cheap flights...
There's an awfully thin line between "we'll give you a discount if you use the app" and "we'll fine you if you don't." Most corporate apps aren't there to benefit you, so this legislation is a clear win as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a discount, it's that they started requiring an app for digital boarding passes some time ago. By cheap tickets I meant that they're in general one of the cheapest airlines in Europe.
I mean I don't really care, they provide me with cheap flights and I'm happy to support that initiative with something as mundane as installing an app. Seriously, do you really care if you open Ryanair app, Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat to pull up your boarding pass?
Yes, because it used to be that I would receive the digital boarding pass by email after booking, and I could display it using open source software on my open source mobile operating system, without Google Play entering into the equation. Or without having to fetch an app for every damned aspect of my life.
This is a greatly appreciated change and Ryanair can suck my balls.
This is something that 99.9% of people do not care about and is a strange basis for government regulation.
If you're a frequent flyer, it's probably just convenient to have it. If you're not a frequent flyer, taking 2 minutes to install and subsequently delete an airline app is the least of the inconveniences that air travel brings.
And what exactly was stopping you from flying with another airline?
It doesn’t matter. Keeping things open is what matters. What everyone’s use case is or isn’t will be debated to death and it isn’t what’s important.
Besides “you’re free to choose another airline”’is disingenuous because if nothing prevents them all from doing the same it’s just a race to the bottom and you don’t really have a choice.
Same as people saying “you’re free to work elsewhere” in response to how appalling working conditions are at company X. No you’re not, rent won’t pay itself and switching jobs isn’t something you do snapping your fingers. No regulation also leads to a race to the bottom here.
Not regardless of the cost, which is demonstrably more important to 99% of consumers.
We are talking about a specific legislation in EU, where we can look at reality and notice that this is not at all, and not even close to reality.
What does this have to do with working conditions? You being upset at working conditions at company X doesn't mean every single piece of corporate regulation is good because the alternative is a race to the bottom.
How is it not? Would you say flying has become more dignified and pleasant since easy jet and Ryanair came about? Every other airline (including national carriers) have taken notice and have been nickel and diming flyers since. “Oh you can charge people for taking luggage? And for the food? And for sitting next to one another?? Well let’s!” And now every airline (low-cost or not) is doing it.
Setting the floor of what is acceptable by law is a net win.
I could probably pay less rent by accepting to sleep in shifts with 4 other people in a one bedroom appartment. I’d be free not to if I didn’t like it, and I’d save a bunch of money (probably) by doing it. Yet that’s illegal and for good reason. I’d argue this is similar: you’re also setting a limit on what is acceptable for saving money, and sleeping in 4, 6h shifts isn’t acceptable (as far as human decency goes) no matter how much less it’d make the rent.
I never bring luggage, I bring my own sandwiches/fruit/snacks and paying more money for those things to be packaged into my 1.5-4 hour flight is just a waste of my money. Every single airline that I've looked at in the past 5 years offers packages that include those things at a higher price if you wish to have them. Lufthansa gave us snacks last time I flew with it, so did LOT. So what you're saying is just not true, there are plenty of airlines that include things into your ticket, but I highly prefer flying for under 50 euros round trip without useless (for me) stuff baked into the price.
And it's not because to my knowledge only Ryanair at the moment requires an app to get the digital boarding pass. Which by the way you can just screenshot anyway.
Installing an app is a mundane action everybody does regularly, takes 2 minutes and you can delete it afterwards. This has nothing to do with committing to some sort of living arrangement.
But there is marginally zero cost to this. It's software. It's the easiest thing on the planet to send a boarding pass via email in six different formats. I could shit this out in my sleep with one hand tied behind my back. It is significantly harder to maintain a complete application and keep in on multiple mobile app stores. It's not a cost thing. It's a control thing.
It's a customer retention thing, which makes more money for the company, which means they get to keep ticket prices lower for longer, which makes me extremely happy as I get to travel Europe for not very much money at all.
Let me get this straight. Ryan Air's customers who are incredibly price sensitive, will suddenly stop flying with Ryan Air if they aren't forced to use the app to receive their boarding pass, which is achievable at near zero marginal cost to Ryan Air (i.e. won't affect their prices). Ryan Air isn't retaining anyone for any other reason than it will transport them to where they want to go cheaper than anywhere else.
No? Customers that occasionally fly with Ryanair may choose them more frequently if they have their app on their phone because it's easier to check their flights there.
My 5 cents: I just think there shouldn't be any cheap flights like Ryanair. With or without app. It should be banned. It just destroys our planet and lives of people living in poor countries.
Strangely, governments do not exist purely to legislate on or regulate exactly and only what the general populace cares about, but instead to foster an environment which is more beneficial to them.
It happens that preventing harmful business practices falls within that goal- and the ways in which many of today's corporations handle and process our data, as well as restrict the ways in which we can do business, or otherwise interact, with them, are genuinely predatory, manipulative, and hostile.
From your comments across this entire thread, your attitude can seemingly be summed up as:
And don't pretend that Ryanair are the only company that employs these practices- or that other companies aren't also jumping on board. And you don't regulate against things only once every actor is doing them.
Edit: Spelling.
It's more beneficial to have higher availability of airplane travel within the EU than to prevent Ryanair promoting their app and have 99% of people use Google Wallet or Adobe Acrobat instead.
Which EU airlines are forcing you to use their apps and which are jumping on board?
Sure, but you saying it's predatory, manipulative or hostile doesn't actually make it so. It's a cheaper airline where you need to make some sacrifices compared to "regular" ones. I and many many others are completely okay with it. They're upfront with their conditions. Some people choose not to fly with them and that's completely okay. Nothing about this is unethical.
It's much better not to leak our society's data to data brokers via shady apps, so enabling consumers not to have to use the app is a net positive for a whole society. It's much more important than comfort of an individual and I'm happy politicians see it.
I don't live in Europe, but if an airline forced me to download their shitty app to use their services, yeah, I'm not using that airline. That goes for pretty much any service - forcing me to use their app feels like an excuse for them to harvest more of my data. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to just use their website and my email to do everything that needs to be done!
First of all, the app is quite convenient. Secondly, you are free to fly with another airline already.
They already know where you're flying from and to, your passport details, the people you fly with. What sensitive data are you protecting that Android permissions aren't capable of handling and their website is incapable of harvesting?
Genuinely curious what part of these responses is something based in reality and what is just a principled stance based on "company wants me to use an app = bad".
I can’t understand why you’re so eager to force people using apps? There is already a standard to display boarding pass without extra apps. Why is it such a big deal to force airlines (since they won’t do it themselves) to use it?
Prefer their app? Great you can still use it. Don’t want to? Well awesome there is also that option.
I really don’t get how more options and less vendor lockin is such a bad thing to revolt against.
Ryanair is able to offer cheap prices because they do things like force people to use their app, which leads to higher conversion rates in some higher margin product later. The removal of this means less conversion there, which ultimately leads to higher prices for the average ticket on Ryanair in the long run. Sometimes, it's good to allow companies to offer these kinds of experiences even if they're shitty because it results in more consumer choice in airline experiences (trade shitty experience for cheap ticket) overall, even if it results in fewer consumer choices in airline experiences for you specifically because you don't want to install their app.
Honestly the "higher margin" sounds like them charging people 60€ for not having the app installed. Like some folks can navigate predatory loan situations without drowning in them, but lots of people can't. Regulating larger harm makes sense. Especially when it's an exhorbitant cost compared to the tickets themselves.
It seems reasonable for a government to set a baseline regulatory expectation, such as you don't need to have a proprietary app to fly. You can have it, but you aren't required. That's in line with many other government regs.
Ryanair certainly isn't fighting this hard for its consumers, it's odd to see people fighting for it.
Yeah, given Ryanair's history of dark patterns, this is what I suspect as well. Ryanair's basically subsidizing the cost of tickets for some customers by banking on other customers making honest mistakes, which is a pretty shitty way to treat the people you're supposed to be serving.
I'm honestly surprised the regulation wasn't targeted at high cost fees - like payday loans the idea that a fee would be higher than the cost of a ticket (idk Ryanair's current pricing but based on their historical pricing I'm assuming) or a very large percentage of it seems obviously predatory.
This boils down to "the company has more money, therefore they'll offer better service," which is a massive assumption that I've seen entirely too many times over the years.
The most likely outcome for a successful company making more money is that they'll start trying to make even more than that, not that they'll suddenly start offering better prices. That only happens in an environment of healthy competition... which means that "healthy competition" is seen as a barrier to further success. This is how monopolies develop. Amazon is obscenely successful — do you think they've utilized that success for the public good?
Ryanair does not force an app because it lets them offer cheaper tickets. They force an app because it makes them money.1 The cheaper tickets are there for the same reason, and they'd absolutely increase the price if they felt they could. They should not be treated like a charity.
1. Well, probably. There are a few other reasons I can come up with – "everyone else is doing it!" for one – but none of them are exactly good. The point stands, regardless.
Well I’m of the opinion that it’s better to trade ultra low prices for fairer business practices. Ryanair will still be a shitty airline to fly (miserable process throughout, everything is paid, faraway airports with transfer costs) but there will be a little more decency involved in their business practices.
And I also think that setting a floor for how low and demeaning businesses can go profits everyone because other airlines won’t be tempted to drop to that level.
Best case, the list of your installed applications, all accelerometer movements of your phone, every time you unlock and lock your phone, google advertisement profile id, and a lot of other stuff useful for fingerprinting and advertising.
Worst case, something like this:
https://localmess.github.io/
Not saying the Ryanair app does all of that, just answering your specific question. And I've personally seen random marketplace apps notify me (not because Android enforces that, but probably just because they were careful about privacy regulations) after an update that they will now gather the list of all my installed apps to "protect me from viruses".
Thank you, I'm an ecologist by trade and I don't know all the nefarious things that my phone is doing, but I know some of them and it grosses me out.
The app for me is inconvenient, because I primarily do things on a browser on a PC, not my phone. I don't download proprietary programs on my computer for no reason, because I don't know what they're doing and they don't need to be on there. I feel the same way about my phone. The internet alone has worked to do airline transactions for decades, and I really don't think Ryanair created an app just for my "convenience" or "user experience". Why do you think Reddit tries to force everyone to download their shitty app? To be nice to their users?
It's extra effort to specifically build an app compared to making a website - why put in that extra effort unless the companies are gaining something extra from it? My stance is part principle and part experience of living in a "money first" capitalist hellhole. I don't want companies to have any of my data, and even though they get a lot of it, I'm not going to invite the obvious vampire onto my device.
I don't think you are presenting your boarding pass at the airport on a PC. Which is the only thing we're talking about, everything else can be done on a PC.
This is off topic, but as someone from a post soviet republic, being born in a "capitalist hellhole" is why you get to complain about something like having to install an app for 2 minutes on your smartphone in order to take a flight.
This is actually super interesting - I don't know what your experience has been living in a post-Soviet republic, but it seems like my experience growing up elsewhere (with immigrant grandparents) was quite different from yours, and this has shaped our respective values and what we perceive to be a minor annoyance vs. a deeply foreboding or problematic trend. I never would have guessed something as mundane as airline tickets could be so divisive! So that's pretty neat. Thanks for sharing.
For the record, I either print my passes when I check in (and use them as bookmarks) or print from home. I'm actually looking to get rid of my smartphone and go back to a flip phone, but I have so many 2FA needs through work that I literally could not do my job without it. I hate it and I try not to use my phone for mindless dicking around, but focus primarily for communication (and occasionally taking photos and checking sports scores). I don't have mobile data and I like it that way - it helps minimize being addicted to having a computer in my pocket, but it is frustrating when services assume you absolutely must have a smartphone (like parking meters). Is it appropriate for me to be a Luddite when so much of the world is constantly online? I don't know, but there are plenty of older folks and rural folks here who do not have Internet access or use smartphones, and I'd like to think there's still room for them/me in society generally.
Yes, I understood. I wrote my point the way I did to try and make it more brief, but if a rewording helps: The app doesn't actually make anything cheaper for you.
Even if it does save/make the company money, there is no promise whatsoever that those savings will be passed on to you at all, much less for any extended length of time. This goes double in an environment where the shitty app is the expected default that everyone is used to having to deal with whether they like it or not, because if everyone's shit, then being shitty becomes free. The customer has no choice, and thus the company no longer needs to care about providing anything extra in exchange.
You get forced to download an app because inconveniencing and spying on you is beneficial for the company. It is an active detriment to you, whether you know it or not.
Yes. I don't want to be forced to use apps that I do not trust.
It's not a promise, it's a fact that their flights are generally the cheapest ones around.
Great, you have that option: flying with another airline!
The app has nothing to do with this.
I have a sneaking suspicion many of them either are already or would very much like to remove this choice entirely. Your accepting attitude of their decision to make things more difficult for you makes it all the easier for that decision to become the norm, and for switching airlines to solve absolutely nothing. And preventing exactly that is a prime reason why this legislation now exists.
I'm concerned that explanation will fall on deaf ears however. It has already been pointed out to you how a race-to-the-bottom works, and you didn't listen to it purely under the assumption that the status quo would somehow continue forever. This feels thoroughly like you're responding just for the sake of arguing, so accordingly, this will be my last comment here.
You know, if you and @Lobachevsky go back and forth and neither of you budge, you both can equally be accused of having deaf ears. You're not guaranteed to be correct. @Lobachevsky thinks the tradeoff for lower prices is worth it. You don't think the profit generated by forcing an app on customers is passed on as savings. Some users think that regardless of savings or not, it's a step too far to require an app. No one is necessarily wrong.
Although I took a quick look at Ryanair and Lufthansa financials and the profit margins are roughly the same, which implies to me that Ryanair's weird pricing structure does pass on savings to customers, assuming that Ryanair has cheaper flights on average.
That would work better as an argument if my interlocutor had a different attitude with regards to other people, but there's a pattern here. Besides, the mean is not necessarily golden.
That said, I appreciate that you took the time to understand my position.
That's possible, sure. I think that it's hard to be certain of that from indirect analysis that's likely missing many (possibly unobtainable) variables, but I was willing to accept that as a possibility anyways.
Thing is, to me, it doesn't really matter, because I still view it as the aforementioned race to the bottom. If Ryanair or any other for-profit airline secured enough of an advantage in the market, they'd stop offering the low prices, with no good reason to believe the app would go away or become better for it.
It's always been a race to the bottom since the beginning. But we reach an equilibrium state where if the airlines get too bad, another one will step in. See American Airlines flailing now, United rising (even if United isn't the best), Spirit Airlines dying, Delta doing relatively well. But the weird games and price segmentation on the macro level has driven the cost of air travel down so far from where it has been before. Effectively, one set of flyers subsidize another set of flyers, given the cost of transporting each person is relatively similar.
Until they don't.
I mentioned to you before that when competition becomes the biggest obstacle to further profit, competition becomes the biggest thing a corporation – now established and highly successful – seeks to eliminate. Which is why anti-trust laws exist, but then that becomes the target, and you get lobbying, etc. You can't trust a market to inherently foster innovation; on its own, there is no equilibrium.
You don't actually need the app. You can get a boarding pass for free if you say that your phone died. They will probably even let you through with a printout, though I haven't tested that.
More about standards I’d say. A paper boarding pass is paper and portable. Gatekeeping it behind an app suddenly requires a functioning phone and app or you pay a fine
Not European, but Alaska Airlines requires an app. Last time I ran into this, someone didn't even have an account and Alaska couldn't print tickets. (Someone else had booked the flight.) They had to download the app, create an account, then figure out how to link this account with whatever identifier they had, all before they could even get to security.
Saves money and lets them spy on you, so I'm sure it's the wave of the future.
Part of the reason I still just go up to the counter to check in.
Expensive with Ryanair: They charge you 60€ if you haven‘t checked in online more than two hours before the flight.
They’d charge you for the air you breathe on the plane and the floor you walk on in the airport if they could get away with it.
That's what we tried to do. The counter was unable to print tickets.