So he just went to live beyond the wall, yes? Otherwise it makes no sense because the wildlings aren't a threat and neither are the dead, so there's no need to the Night's Watch anymore
So he just went to live beyond the wall, yes? Otherwise it makes no sense because the wildlings aren't a threat and neither are the dead, so there's no need to the Night's Watch anymore
In this episode, they said the Night's Watch still exists because they need a place to send people that don't belong in the Kingdom. But yes, it looks like Jon ends up not joining the Night's...
In this episode, they said the Night's Watch still exists because they need a place to send people that don't belong in the Kingdom.
But yes, it looks like Jon ends up not joining the Night's Watch and goes to live beyond the wall.
Let's send all our criminals and disinherited nobles with chips on their shoulders up to join an independent, self-governing standing army. We can then ban them from having the civilizing...
In this episode, they said the Night's Watch still exists because they need a place to send people that don't belong in the Kingdom.
Let's send all our criminals and disinherited nobles with chips on their shoulders up to join an independent, self-governing standing army. We can then ban them from having the civilizing influences of family life or any social connections to anyone outside this order. What could go wrong?
It tooks hundreds upon hundreds of years for them to forget that the Others were a real threat, though. I'd hope there's better documentation around this time, since it didn't seem the Maesters...
It tooks hundreds upon hundreds of years for them to forget that the Others were a real threat, though. I'd hope there's better documentation around this time, since it didn't seem the Maesters were around last time the Others showed up.
Give how excellently D&D managed to bungle this season, this feels very much like the best possible outcome given what the rest of the season produced. A more-bitter-than-sweet ending with some...
Give how excellently D&D managed to bungle this season, this feels very much like the best possible outcome given what the rest of the season produced. A more-bitter-than-sweet ending with some arcs tied up, and others left unexplained. I can never forgive D&D for the first five episodes though. I can't think of another show which has such a dramatic drop in quality.
I guess we'll find out how Martin chooses to end it in a decade or three.
I haven't seen dexter, so I don't know if I'd agree with these ratings, but the last season and episode of game of thrones actually reviewed significantly worse than the last season of Dexter on...
I haven't seen dexter, so I don't know if I'd agree with these ratings, but the last season and episode of game of thrones actually reviewed significantly worse than the last season of Dexter on IMDb, 6.6 vs 7.6 for the season, and 4.3 vs 4.7 for the last episode.
That's only because of how hyped GoT is. Realistically, the last GoT episodes were a reasonably-high-quality letdown for a massively overhyped and incredibly high quality show, whereas Dexter's...
That's only because of how hyped GoT is. Realistically, the last GoT episodes were a reasonably-high-quality letdown for a massively overhyped and incredibly high quality show, whereas Dexter's last seasons were massive, massive drops in quality (= atrocious pieces of crap) for an otherwise excellent and very high quality show.
I mean, IMO that's exactly what the past four seasons of game of thrones were, though I suspect since it took this long for popular opinion to turn against the show, I might just have different...
Dexter's last seasons were massive, massive drops in quality (= atrocious pieces of crap) for an otherwise excellent and very high quality show.
I mean, IMO that's exactly what the past four seasons of game of thrones were, though I suspect since it took this long for popular opinion to turn against the show, I might just have different ideas on what made it good in the first place.
I've seen the drop in quality but it's not that bad… it's just that book readers are disappointed to see stuff being changed and that increases the quality drop from their POV. From the POV of...
I've seen the drop in quality but it's not that bad… it's just that book readers are disappointed to see stuff being changed and that increases the quality drop from their POV.
From the POV of someone who's just watched the show (and is very in tune with the whole universe book-included what with wikis existing), clearly the last 4 seasons weren't as good, and Season 5 was especially bad, but… come on. GoT is a good show. This was a good finale, and even though the final season was very rushed you could see it work out with more episode.
What I did in the final two episodes was play along and make-believe more context between scenes. People teleporting from Winterfell to King's Landing and back isn't an issue if you imagine "hey, this happened in the 6 in-between episodes that were cut from the show". Same with Dany going nuts all of a sudden.
I know it's not ideal, it sucks to have to do that, and I'm angry that the final season for such a masterful show was botched. But hey, come on.
I have to disagree. Any ending that completely bungles the series negates all rewatch value. Why cheer for Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and Hardhome when you know it's one giant, amateur...
I have to disagree. Any ending that completely bungles the series negates all rewatch value. Why cheer for Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and Hardhome when you know it's one giant, amateur fake-out hour?
If this were an anthology show, such as True Detective or American Horror Story, one bad season is no problem, since every season is new. Doesn't work when it's all one story unless the landing is solid. Thrones has joined, and even surpassed, both Dexter and Lost. You can find it right next to them in the $1 DVD dustbin. Breaking Bad remains the undisputed king of perfect television. I really wanted it to fall to Thrones and to see a fantasy series take that honor, but oh well.
The show goes from being a treasure you can watch over and over with friends/relatives/children decades later (such as Lord of the Rings and Breaking Bad) to a train wreck you won't even recommend at the water cooler. All it takes for that to happen is one bad writing decision, and Thrones had several.
I've already told some of the people I know who asked 'how was the ending' not to bother with Thrones, it's a waste of time. I get the 'I'm glad I waited and didn't waste my time' response more often than I used to - seems like people are getting wise to this crap and waiting until a full series is out to watch it. That's not great news for media and merchandise sales, or any creative company's bottom line. Messing up the ending is going to become more and more expensive to the bottom line, I think. Still waiting on how far HBO's subscription numbers drop over this.
I'm tired of making excuses for shitty television, and Thrones makes me even angrier about it than any show ever has, and far less likely to let it slide with a bunch of tepid excuses. I want the writers blackballed for life - deny them access to a pen. Fire them. Laugh at them at every given opportunity. Brand that shame right on their foreheads with a hot poker. Heckle them and chase them out of conventions, boycott people who employ them. That's 'justice' for destroying the work of hundreds of creatives and so many talented actors, directors, and producers during the final hour.
I do not love, or care much about, the people who produce crap like this. I am not willing to be nice, give them the benefit of the doubt, or otherwise be a 'nice guy' and excuse their failures. That used to be me, a long, long time ago. Now I'm starting to think that nailing these people to a cross is the only way we're going to get better television. If that makes me a 'bad person' I'll wear that badge gladly and use it as a weapon without the slightest bit of guilt or remorse. I'm making the conscious decision to become a hardcore troll over this and throw mercy under the bus, just like Dany.
I will say this - I've never been so motivated to write my own stories. I know I can do better than this - anyone can do better than this. At least in that respect, Thrones might just spur a bunch of new writing talent to get involved in the industry.
Let me also be crystal clear - this is a 'writers only' problem. Direction, production, acting... I almost never have issue with those things. It always comes down to the lack of talent hiding behind the pen. Every. Single. Time.
I have only read the first 1/3 of the first book, back in '97. Still waiting for the last one to come out before I start them all, and I don't blame George for this. I'll only blame him for not finishing the story before he dies, if it comes to that. I'm sure Brandon Sanderson can come to the rescue again. :P
?!?! Holy moly you are far too emotionally involved with this stuff. Like, really… don't do that. I still recommend Dexter, I just tell people "hey, don't watch the last few seasons". Game of...
?!?!
Holy moly you are far too emotionally involved with this stuff.
I've already told some of the people I know who asked 'how was the ending' not to bother with Thrones
Like, really… don't do that. I still recommend Dexter, I just tell people "hey, don't watch the last few seasons". Game of Thrones is one of the most exceptional works of television available out there. S07E07 is quite possibly the highest quality television work in existence so far (that's definitely how I rank it, and I don't throw that lightly).
Man, I get it. I get being upset that the ending was botched. I also would like a do-over and I also agree there were many fan-made scripts that blow the D&D stuff out of the water. BUT, the following is also true:
There's 4 outstanding seasons of one of the best shows on TV
There's 7 really, really good seasons of GoT out there
Season 8's writing was not that bad. It was disappointing and mediocre, but it wasn't "bad". It was awful only in comparison to the rest of the series. Also, E01 and E02 were both pretty fucking great IMO (even though you can feel E01 is rushy as well as it tries to blow its load early).
As you said, there is a lot of high quality non-writing work out there in those last few episodes. It doesn't make up for the writing, but it means the episodes are very enjoyable nonetheless (Same way you can enjoy Avatar for the eye candy).
And I'm tired of people saying D&D were running on zero source material. GRRM did consult and they were given the highlights at the very least (and IMO more). It's clear they've had to make up a lot of shit on their own but TWOW will likely have a lot of the same story as the last few seasons of GoT did, just… more context.
If that makes me a 'bad person' I'll wear that badge gladly
It doesn't make you a bad person, it just makes you wrong. That impacts no one but you. I'm very fucking upset at how Dexter was ruined (if you couldn't tell…). I still don't want to nail anyone to a cross. I just won't watch any more crap produced by the people behind that televomit.
I mean, reading your post I'm getting a seriously off-putting "fanboy-taking-it-too-far" vibe. Don't be that.
Like I said, I'm past caring if my attitude bothers people. I'll be telling people to watch The Expanse instead, and Better Call Saul, and Black Sails, and anything else that's good I come across....
Like I said, I'm past caring if my attitude bothers people. I'll be telling people to watch The Expanse instead, and Better Call Saul, and Black Sails, and anything else that's good I come across. Support the shows and the writers and the networks that provide a fulfilling experience, and burn the rest. I don't need to recommend them 'damaged' shows with a bunch of caveats when I can recommend them solid shows with no reservations.
I have told people Dexter had its moments (that bathtub scene was awesome) and I'll tell them Thrones has its moments as well. I will also tell them that the endings are spectacular disasters. Funnily enough, when I mention the ending fails, most people don't seem all that interested in seeing the good bits. The ending matters - more than anything else, in fact.
I'd even say this has burned up some of the respect I had for HBO itself. I always considered them one of the best networks, and bought their shows on DVD/BR to support their commitment to good television. I am honestly boggled that they allowed this to happen on their watch. They (and Time Warner) were bought by AT&T a couple years ago and I feel like something was going on there in business-land that led them to take their eyes off the ball in the creative department. If Westworld S3 and the Deadwood movie are a boondoggle I may have to write them off. Netflix isn't all that much better, they just throw more at the wall. It's reached the point where I'm now cheering for Bezos to elevate television. What a fucking world. :P
I wanted to be a fanboy, and I was, even through the end of S7 where the threads were starting to unravel. S8E3 is the moment my forgiveness ends. Now I get to be the troll instead. I'll have my fun either way. ;)
Edit: Taboo. I keep forgetting we still have two more seasons of Tom Hardy's masterpiece to anticipate. If Thrones has let you down, and you fancy well woven patient plots, period drama, and intrigue, let Taboo fill that void.
Yah that's a much more reasonable post than your previous one tbfh :P Recommending other shows instead of GoT is fine, but saying "don't bother with Thrones" is overkill. That was my point. I...
Yah that's a much more reasonable post than your previous one tbfh :P Recommending other shows instead of GoT is fine, but saying "don't bother with Thrones" is overkill. That was my point.
I don't think I've lost any respect for HBO though. Yeah, this happened on their watch, but what are they gonna do, hold George at gunpoint? Hold off 6 more years on the final seasons of GoT?
Also re bezos… has Amazon produced anything of remotely high quality? Netflix at least had a bunch of sleeper hits in its "throw shit at the wall" strategy (Stranger Things, BJH, first seasons of OITNB, early House of Cards…)
Honestly I can't name any Amazon shows, I haven't been following them. They did rescue The Expanse from cancellation after a massive fan campaign, and the people writing the show are still the...
Honestly I can't name any Amazon shows, I haven't been following them. They did rescue The Expanse from cancellation after a massive fan campaign, and the people writing the show are still the authors of the books (as god intended imo). The next season is set to drop shortly, and I'd say Amazon is in an excellent position to grab some mindshare from the people who want good television if it goes well. I hope they knock it out of the park, but only time will tell.
There's nothing like a headline saying, "Amazon grabs more than a hundred and twenty thousand disaffected HBO subscribers with a critically acclaimed season of The Expanse" to snap the people in the board rooms out of whatever fever dreams they get lost in and get them back to work. Competition is always a good thing. Multiple successful competitors is even better. We all win - more shows, better shows, more creative people employed, more art for the dusty pages of history.
I am going to be following all of the coverage of the Thrones apocalypse with interest. I've been seeing people with industry ties say it's so bad that books will be written and classes will be taught about this. I hope they are right.
I'm a bit miffed at the slide of Happy! as well. S1 was the best christmas story ever told, full stop. It's also self-contained enough that the rest of the show need not be relevant (like True Detective S1, which was also exceptional). Happy! S2 isn't 'bad' but boy, some of the magic is definitely gone. I feel like it's the editing that's changed, which is a weird one. That might be the first time the editing has ever felt so off to me, but the crazy editing is part of what made S1 so incredible.
My disappointment doesn't really come from being a book reader, or predates it anyway, I actually read the books for the first time as a reaction to my disappointment in seasons 5 and 6. Maybe the...
My disappointment doesn't really come from being a book reader, or predates it anyway, I actually read the books for the first time as a reaction to my disappointment in seasons 5 and 6. Maybe the last few seasons of GoT could be considered good in a vacuum, or compared to contemporary television, but they represent a serious decline in quality from earlier seasons, and that makes them harder to watch than they might otherwise be.
Yeah. Remember when... (spoilers - though at this point, I don't know why anyone would care) Varys was a player, rather than a patsy? Combat was epic, not a farce? Battles were incredible, instead...
Yeah. Remember when...
(spoilers - though at this point, I don't know why anyone would care)
I did enjoy Darth Sansa. I'd have liked to see Varys, Littlefinger, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Jorah, and Sam all advising Jon and Dany. Ser Barristan deserved to make it that far too, I think. Perfect...
I did enjoy Darth Sansa. I'd have liked to see Varys, Littlefinger, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Jorah, and Sam all advising Jon and Dany. Ser Barristan deserved to make it that far too, I think. Perfect opportunity to continue the 'game of thrones' all through the white walker plot.
I think it's completely fair to be disappointed, but how "bad" the later seasons are is ridiculously overblown. I say this in my most objective voice possible…
I think it's completely fair to be disappointed, but how "bad" the later seasons are is ridiculously overblown. I say this in my most objective voice possible…
I suspect Dany ends up having to take King's Landing from (f)Aegon rather than Cersei. And it's likely it really will be a "people love him and fear me" type of difference instead of expecting...
I suspect Dany ends up having to take King's Landing from (f)Aegon rather than Cersei. And it's likely it really will be a "people love him and fear me" type of difference instead of expecting them to not side with Dany over Cersei, who we all know rules through fear already.
There is probably going to be a big greyscale epidemic as well. So perhaps Dany besieges King's Landing, Greyscale starts to take the city since they're all penned in, and she burns them all as a necessary purge. This gives her a nasty reputation, so she ends up leaning into it and becomes the burninator in chief.
The whole idea that at the end of show they've somehow "broken the wheel" by having Westoros select it's leader is just lazy. There is a whole continent still filled with slaves just across the...
"breaking the wheel" plot
The whole idea that at the end of show they've somehow "broken the wheel" by having Westoros select it's leader is just lazy. There is a whole continent still filled with slaves just across the Narrow Sea.
Many of the slave cities were on the brink of having the slavers take back over (in the handful of cities that Dany did liberate). Now I guess that's not important anymore because Tyrion tied up the ending with a neat little bow.
Not just a leader they selected an unnaturally long-lived tree-wizard with perfect sight of the past, and fairly reliable prophecies about the future, and the ability to warg into wildlife. That...
The whole idea that at the end of show they've somehow "broken the wheel" by having Westoros select it's leader is just lazy.
Not just a leader they selected an unnaturally long-lived tree-wizard with perfect sight of the past, and fairly reliable prophecies about the future, and the ability to warg into wildlife.
That has pretty serious implications for the country. It would be like if England rewrote its constitution to put some immortal Saxon shaman with fae magic in charge.
Best moment of the episode: when the North declares independence and the leaders of Dorne and the Iron Islands look at each other like, "Damn, I didn't know that was an option, we should have...
Exemplary
Best moment of the episode: when the North declares independence and the leaders of Dorne and the Iron Islands look at each other like, "Damn, I didn't know that was an option, we should have voted for that."
Anyway. I'm sure plenty of people will be able to point out everything wrong with this episode and this season but I want to look back at what's been great about this series. I heard about ASOIAF from playing the board game and it looked exactly like the sort of story I'd enjoy. I spent a couple years trying to find the series whenever I went into a used book shop but when I heard about the show (which I knew I'd watch) I broke down and bought the books retail.
Right from the beginning it was a community experience. People back in 2011 would see me reading the paperbacks on the train or the bus and strike up a conversation. After watching the first episode I watched it again with my best friends and drew diagrams for them trying to explain who everyone was and how they were related. As the years went on the show exploded in popularity and seemingly everyone watched it. I once met someone from rural Kazakhstan and even we could both talk about the show and books with each other.
Waiting for the new books may have been disappointing, and in retrospect the show-runners didn't really know what made ASOIAF good and they weren't able to replicate it when they were working without source material, but it's been a decade long experience with a story I love and it's been great to share in that with so many people.
So, here's to more good stories and the joy of sharing them with friends and strangers. Though this version of this story ended in a lacklustre way there are always new stories being told and old ones waiting to be discovered.
I actively disliked it. I went into the season not expecting much, and the first couple of episodes had me nostalgic and excited for how it would all end. But for my taste it one of the worst...
I actively disliked it. I went into the season not expecting much, and the first couple of episodes had me nostalgic and excited for how it would all end. But for my taste it one of the worst endings to a show I’ve seen. Taken on its own it was fine but if I think about any part of the ending for more than five minutes I am left wondering how HBO allowed it to be shipped at all. I think my one single biggest issue is with Grey Worm’s reaction to Daenerys’ assassination. Just minutes earlier he was cutting the throats of ‘enemies of the queen’ but just locks Jon up when he confesses to killing her? And then just sits around as the nobles let another of his prisoners pick the next king and free his other prisoner? I just can’t get my head around it. It’s not like he and Jon were pals.
That’s only one of a list of little incongruities that are bouncing around my brain this morning.
And then Grey Worm and the Unsullied immediately fuck off to Naath anyway (where they'll likely be killed by the disease ridden butterflies that kill foreigners) so why even bother sending Jon to...
And then Grey Worm and the Unsullied immediately fuck off to Naath anyway (where they'll likely be killed by the disease ridden butterflies that kill foreigners) so why even bother sending Jon to the Wall?
Very true, I forgot how Yara was upset about Jon's actions which makes total sense. Though I can't say the same for Dorne, but maybe because Thenew, Prince of Dorne was only mentioned like once...
Very true, I forgot how Yara was upset about Jon's actions which makes total sense. Though I can't say the same for Dorne, but maybe because Thenew, Prince of Dorne was only mentioned like once before his appearance in the finale so we really don't know much of his allegiances to either Dany or the Sand Snakes who previously pledged themselves to Dany.
And yeah, I guess while we as the viewers know that Jon has no desire for the throne, the council doesn't know that. And who's to say his children wouldn't feel differently. Tbh I'd love to see a spin-off a couple generations from now where Jon's children or grandchildren are upset at what they did to him and try to get Westeros to recognize their heritage. And Icefyre rebellion or something.
The butterflies is a minor point that I'm just poking fun at. You're right that Davos did mention the butterflies when talking about Naath but what point was there in that if not to be a clear reference to their lethality in the books.
The ending, where everyone unanimously agreed on who would be king, was completely incongruous with what went before. The entire premise of the book is based on the simple fact that everyone wants...
The ending, where everyone unanimously agreed on who would be king, was completely incongruous with what went before.
The entire premise of the book is based on the simple fact that everyone wants to be king, and that there are a lot of back room machinations regarding heritage to the crown.
It's not an implausible ending, but I think it needed more depth that one speech from Tyrion and Sansa telling that dude to sit down.
That kinda how I feel about it. I know everyone wants fan service done for their personal favorite character, but if it ended w/ Danny's death, "You will always be my my Queen" J Snow and Drogon...
That kinda how I feel about it.
I know everyone wants fan service done for their personal favorite character, but if it ended w/ Danny's death, "You will always be my my Queen" J Snow and Drogon melting the Iron thrown. I think the end would have been more poignant. This meandering epilogue, was just flat.
Also the most emotional part of the whole episode was Drogon's reaction to Danny death. It is the only part that made me feel something.
During the first couple of episodes I thought they were building to something devastating and emotionally intense. Sadly, The Long Night felt farcical to me. I realised after the first souple of...
During the first couple of episodes I thought they were building to something devastating and emotionally intense. Sadly, The Long Night felt farcical to me. I realised after the first souple of fake out danger scenes there would be a dramatic end to the episode but still the climax did actually surprise me for how cheap and tacky it was - I literally shouted "Oh Fuck Off" in exasperation at my screen. There's so much talk about "the algorithms" taking over the likes of facebook and youtube and the dramatic decline in quality, enjoyment and satisfaction. That describes my feeling for this season and the plots and actions of the characters we've spent so much time with - they're being controlled by some algorithm.
Finally the concluding episode. It just left me numb - not the numbness you get from having such concentrated emotion and stimulus where your brain just shuts down all the feeling because it's too much to cope with. No it's the numbness you get after sitting in a bath until the water temperature drops to body temperature - no feeling at all.
There really should have been some impact to seeing the end of the stories for all these characters but I felt nothing. In fact the only emotion I feel is annoyance - yes they still manage to piss me off. I mean Edmure Tully in your fucking finale? What was the fucking point?
This could be a perfectly good ending to a Game of Thrones. But not for the Game of Thrones that D&D made. I don't like how most of the stories were tied up. That said, I think Tyrion's ending is...
This could be a perfectly good ending to a Game of Thrones. But not for the Game of Thrones that D&D made. I don't like how most of the stories were tied up.
That said, I think Tyrion's ending is the best of all of the remaining characters'. He's cursed to be the hand, seemingly for the rest of his life, even though it's the last thing he wants to do. But I'm sure his humility will work to his benefit.
Was it though? We only think that because he told us (like how most of the last season "told us" the characters thoughts and what to think of them). IIRC he was pretty stoked to be the Hand early...
even though it's the last thing he wants to do
Was it though? We only think that because he told us (like how most of the last season "told us" the characters thoughts and what to think of them). IIRC he was pretty stoked to be the Hand early on and was ALWAYS looking for some sort of validation from authority. If anything, this seems like exactly what Tyrion wanted.
It would have been nice if he had someone like Varys to enjoy it with... but he betrayed him last episode for ... reasons.
Same feelings here. Honestly, I wish D&D had just scrapped George's ending and written their own conclusions. They could have played to their strengths and not put the whiff of spoilers on the books.
Same feelings here. Honestly, I wish D&D had just scrapped George's ending and written their own conclusions. They could have played to their strengths and not put the whiff of spoilers on the books.
I feel like I did after the first time I listened to 2112. Now what? The season ended up being underwhelming but I went into it thinking it'd be underwhelming and took it for what it was. It was...
I feel like I did after the first time I listened to 2112. Now what?
The season ended up being underwhelming but I went into it thinking it'd be underwhelming and took it for what it was. It was far from perfect but it's the only ending we're probably ever going to get and I enjoyed it. They did Jon dirty though.
Well, there's always more prog to enjoy. Something will come along and pick up the torch for good television. Right now my favorite is Better Call Saul. I also still have The Expanse to look...
Well, there's always more prog to enjoy. Something will come along and pick up the torch for good television. Right now my favorite is Better Call Saul. I also still have The Expanse to look forward to, hopefully it'll help wash the Thrones away.
I just started the Expanse about a month ago. Not nearly as much political maneuvering as early seasons of GoT, but the plots involving the UN leadership are really good. Avasarala in particular...
I just started the Expanse about a month ago. Not nearly as much political maneuvering as early seasons of GoT, but the plots involving the UN leadership are really good. Avasarala in particular is great.
I think the politics of the Expanse are vastly different from GoT based on what I know of the latter(I've never actually seen the show or read the books and to be honest I don't even know why I'm...
I think the politics of the Expanse are vastly different from GoT based on what I know of the latter(I've never actually seen the show or read the books and to be honest I don't even know why I'm in this thread). In the universe of the Expanse, even the most destitute rock hopper with a secondhand ship has the capability to end all life in the mainland of the three major powers in the story. I don't remember if it's explained in the show, but in the books right from the beginning it's made clear that if anyone wanted to, a slight orbital change on a medium sized asteroid is all it would take to induce an apocalyptic impact on Earth, Mars, or Ceres. Everyone knows this, so everyone always has to "pull their punches", so to speak when it comes to dealing with the enemy. The three powers are constantly trying to apply only the absolute minimum force required to gain advantages with relation to their adversaries, lest they provoke someone into flinging a rock at them.
It makes for an extremely interesting dynamic and a really unique backdrop to set a largely political show like that.
I came within 2 points of winning my office death pool, and even though I didn’t get a prize or anything, I’m proud to have accurately predicted all 3 bonus questions from our pool: Who kills the...
I came within 2 points of winning my office death pool, and even though I didn’t get a prize or anything, I’m proud to have accurately predicted all 3 bonus questions from our pool:
Who kills the Night King? (Arya)
Is Dany pregnant? (No)
Who will sit on the Iron Throne at the end of season 8? (No one)
Unfortunately, my live/die predictions for the list of characters was much more cynical than the actual show. That’s where I ended up losing out.
I'd give my right arm to see either Arya's voyages, or the hand's council travelling around fixing the kingdoms and having arguments. Now that I've watched the full series (and most of it I've...
I'd give my right arm to see either Arya's voyages, or the hand's council travelling around fixing the kingdoms and having arguments.
Now that I've watched the full series (and most of it I've watched a few times) I'd like to read the books, because I understand there's a bunch of stuff in the books not in the show.
Setting up multiple spin-offs is the only valid justification I can find for this mountain of wasted opportunities. At least we know that D&D won't be involved in any of them, so there's the...
Setting up multiple spin-offs is the only valid justification I can find for this mountain of wasted opportunities. At least we know that D&D won't be involved in any of them, so there's the possibility they will be good shows.
I read there are five with two out of the script stages and those are set in a prior time. But we don't know much about the other three. I haven't heard what you said about not continuing any GoT...
I read there are five with two out of the script stages and those are set in a prior time. But we don't know much about the other three.
I haven't heard what you said about not continuing any GoT characters but that makes sense.
What OP is referencing I believe: Source: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath
What OP is referencing I believe:
A thousand years ago, the ten thousand ships of Rhoynar refugees led by Princess Nymeria stopped at Naath after fleeing from their failed attempt to settle in Sothoryos. The Peaceful People welcomed Nymeria and her followers, but the butterfly fever began to kill Rhoynar by the score, driving them back to their ships. After their brief stop at Naath the Rhoynar passed farther west to the Summer Isles.[7]
I seem to remember Davos saying "I hear it's beautiful down there, palm trees and butterflies" when Jon and Davos arrived on Dragonstone. How did D&D know there were butterflies without knowing...
I seem to remember Davos saying "I hear it's beautiful down there, palm trees and butterflies" when Jon and Davos arrived on Dragonstone. How did D&D know there were butterflies without knowing said butterflies are lethal to outsiders?
More likely they just said 'fuck it' and stopped giving a shit about narrative integrity. Hardly the most egregious example. :P
I'm glad this disaster came to an end. I fast forwarded the entire episode. Jon killing Dani was rushed and forced. The dragon melting the throne and carrying the body was cheesy. I don't know...
I'm glad this disaster came to an end. I fast forwarded the entire episode.
Jon killing Dani was rushed and forced. The dragon melting the throne and carrying the body was cheesy. I don't know what to say, i just hate the series at this point.
I'll mention it on the off-chance you're not aware: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a great collection of three short stories about Duncan the Tall that takes place before GoT. I actually like...
I want so badly to read a sequel to this series based around the death of Bran or one of his successors
I'll mention it on the off-chance you're not aware: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a great collection of three short stories about Duncan the Tall that takes place before GoT. I actually like it as much or more than the series.
I must admit, there's a noticeable pall over the reaction videos this morning. Everyone who has been in denial about the show's tailspin just got dealt the coup de grace and you can see the light...
I must admit, there's a noticeable pall over the reaction videos this morning. Everyone who has been in denial about the show's tailspin just got dealt the coup de grace and you can see the light die right out of their eyes. Some get mad, some groan, some rage, some are still trying to make excuses half-heartedly, and a hell of a lot of regular channels are conspicuously late. Still, not every one I've seen has a bad ending, some are surprisingly uplifting. No thanks to HBO of course. :P
I think I feel a lot like you in regards to the last couple seasons. Did you read the books as well? I read them several times, listened to podcasts, read the Wikis, followed forums, etc. I feel...
I think I feel a lot like you in regards to the last couple seasons. Did you read the books as well? I read them several times, listened to podcasts, read the Wikis, followed forums, etc. I feel like I've been ran over by a truck :(
I read some of the first book a long time ago. I remember putting it (and fantasy) down at the exact moment Cat arrived in King's Landing. I was coming off a decade long voracious fantasy binge....
I read some of the first book a long time ago. I remember putting it (and fantasy) down at the exact moment Cat arrived in King's Landing. I was coming off a decade long voracious fantasy binge. David Eddings, Melanie Rawn, Piers Anthony, Anne McCaffrey, Weiss/Hickman, Terry Brooks, R.A. Salvatore, Robert Jordan... I honestly doubt there was a fantasy series out there I hadn't read, even the bad ones.
I ploughed through every single AD&D-based novel on the entire market. It started with Rings/Narnia when I was nine, and I spent nearly every moment of primary school with my face in those books. I'd blow $50 a week just buying paperbacks at Waldenbooks to supplement what my local library couldn't give me. Got to the point where I could read a 300-page book cover to cover in the time it took one of my friends to watch A Few Good Men.
I also learned not to bother - ever, under any circumstances - reading a series until it was finished. Thank Jordan for that lesson, I burned out on his endless morass around book seven, and I think that may have been the one I was reading before I started Thrones and part of why I put that book down. I'd become tired of interminable slogs with no payoff and the sameness of all the fantasy out there - which is rather ironic since bucking those trends is what put George on the map. If I'd made it further into the first book I might have been hooked again.
That's why I still haven't read Ice & Fire, and I won't until I can get the entire series. I haven't read any fantasy other than Potter since the mid-90s. I moved on to scifi/horror for a while instead, then to adult reading (non-fiction, actual science books, etc). I do have the first three books of Ice & Fire sitting here in my library, got them as a gift. I've been wondering if I should pick them up and eat them or continue waiting. I hate hate hate going years between books because the earlier books get flushed out of my 'cache' and I don't remember all the details, which is why I like to binge them instead - it's all fresh and I miss nothing that way.
So your disappointment from the shows is from a show-only perspective? That's telling about the show and how bad they goofed. See I thought my hate was coming from comparing the book to the show....
So your disappointment from the shows is from a show-only perspective? That's telling about the show and how bad they goofed. See I thought my hate was coming from comparing the book to the show. It's nice to know that the show is bad by itself and it's not just me projecting my own book-expectations onto it.
It's definitely from the show only. The drop since the early King's Landing scenes and the storytelling in the first four seasons has been nothing short of cataclysmic. That just makes me want to...
It's definitely from the show only. The drop since the early King's Landing scenes and the storytelling in the first four seasons has been nothing short of cataclysmic. That just makes me want to read the books more. I was hooked on every conversation between Varys and Littlefinger - that kind of quality has been missing since the start of season five. I didn't actually hate it until season eight. Listening to the actors and writers try to blame the fans makes me want to sharpen my knives - that kind of egocentric ignorance is the death of so many shows.
The books are really a triumph. I've read a spattering of fantasy literature in my youth - Anne McCaffrey, The High King, some R.A Salvatore - and ASOIAF is like a mature version of that type of...
The books are really a triumph. I've read a spattering of fantasy literature in my youth - Anne McCaffrey, The High King, some R.A Salvatore - and ASOIAF is like a mature version of that type of fantasy. The world feels very real as do the characters. The only thing that compares IMO is Lord of the Rings.
EDIT: You should read the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms! That's a set of three connected prequel stories. Each are fully contained stories but are best read in order. That would give you a taste of what ASOIAF is like without having to start an unfinished series. They're really stellar and I like them as much or more than ASOIAF.
Even the books dropped sharply after Storm of Swords. The strengths are still there in terms of the world feeling real and the characters, but the weaknesses also start manifesting. The plot...
The books are really a triumph. I've read a spattering of fantasy literature in my youth - Anne McCaffrey, The High King, some R.A Salvatore - and ASOIAF is like a mature version of that type of fantasy. The world feels very real as do the characters. The only thing that compares IMO is Lord of the Rings.
Even the books dropped sharply after Storm of Swords. The strengths are still there in terms of the world feeling real and the characters, but the weaknesses also start manifesting. The plot meanders, we get more and more stuff piled onto the story that doesn't really service the main plot, and we get lots of discussion and elaboration on stuff that doesn't need elaborating on (like the meals people are eating or the clothes they're wearing).
That last part, by itself, isn't terrible but what it winds up doing is giving GRRM too many opportunities to indulge in really repetitive cliches. Things are described as dribbling down people's chins and onto their doublets hundreds of times (or near enough to make no matter) and everything is a "mummer's farce." It all just starts to feel so tiresome to read through. I'd be happy to read the first 3 books again, but the idea of reading through Feast for Crows or Dance with Dragons again just puts me off.
Heh, I know that feeling. Did anyone ever count how many scenes in The Wheel of Time involved the various female characters running around in their scant evening wear swooning over the various...
Heh, I know that feeling. Did anyone ever count how many scenes in The Wheel of Time involved the various female characters running around in their scant evening wear swooning over the various male characters and talking shit about everything? I'd be curious to stack that up against Ice & Fire's banquet count and see who wins. Even the Princess Bride gets flack for this, since literally half of that book deals with the wedding preparations. It's a common enough failing. Tolkien's exhaustive landscape descriptions also come to mind.
I haven't read Wheel of Time so I can't comment on that. As for the others, it's not that he goes into detail on these, it's the consistent and repetitious nature of the stuff he's describing to...
I haven't read Wheel of Time so I can't comment on that. As for the others, it's not that he goes into detail on these, it's the consistent and repetitious nature of the stuff he's describing to the point where they start to feel like stock phrases.
I disagree with your take. I think all of the books are strong. Sure, some may be a bit better than others (I personally dislike the first book the most), but I think your criticisms unfair. What...
I disagree with your take. I think all of the books are strong. Sure, some may be a bit better than others (I personally dislike the first book the most), but I think your criticisms unfair.
What you consider extraneous and repetitive detail others may consider a style of writing. GRRM's food descriptions are to Tolkien's descriptions of landscapes. It's a style and it's deliberate. It's fine to not like it, but it's done on purpose. The man didn't spend 10 years writing Dance and not read his own work. And who's to say what plot points are extraneous or not when the series isn't finished? Ser Pounce could yet play some critical role later on. Who knows?
I'm sure he did, many many times. And I think that's the problem. When you read and reread the same bits too often you become less and less able to edit properly because the sheer repetition makes...
The man didn't spend 10 years writing Dance and not read his own work.
I'm sure he did, many many times. And I think that's the problem. When you read and reread the same bits too often you become less and less able to edit properly because the sheer repetition makes things seem like a natural fit. You get attached the characters, the story, your particular phrasing, etc. and have a harder time seeing their value objectively. It makes it more and more difficult to kill your darlings if you spend too much time with them. He very badly needed a more stubborn editor on those last two.
We also know that much of the content of DWD and FFC wasn't even stuff he intended to write out initially, and he only went down that road because he couldn't come up with a way to do a satisfying time-skip. Based on that, I'd say it's a fair assumption that much of the stuff introduced in those volumes are just instrumental to the central characters' journeys. How little of it wound up factoring into the show's endings bears this out.
In all I wouldn't rate it to low compared to this season, but the whole season felt really rushed. Too many tropes where used it didnt feel like there was any depth to it. This ending was better...
In all I wouldn't rate it to low compared to this season, but the whole season felt really rushed.
Too many tropes where used it didnt feel like there was any depth to it.
This ending was better than I expected with how the series turned after episode 2 of this season.
Or on a larger scale after they started going of script after around the red wedding I think.
I was pretty happy to see Jon become a lumberjack.
So he just went to live beyond the wall, yes? Otherwise it makes no sense because the wildlings aren't a threat and neither are the dead, so there's no need to the Night's Watch anymore
In this episode, they said the Night's Watch still exists because they need a place to send people that don't belong in the Kingdom.
But yes, it looks like Jon ends up not joining the Night's Watch and goes to live beyond the wall.
Let's send all our criminals and disinherited nobles with chips on their shoulders up to join an independent, self-governing standing army. We can then ban them from having the civilizing influences of family life or any social connections to anyone outside this order. What could go wrong?
As an American this all sounds like a realistic system now.
It tooks hundreds upon hundreds of years for them to forget that the Others were a real threat, though. I'd hope there's better documentation around this time, since it didn't seem the Maesters were around last time the Others showed up.
Jon now king of the wildlings, comes for his non sisters kingdom of the north and his not step brothers 6 kingdoms, in GOT 2 electric boogaloo.
Like Dexter. The same horrible ending, the same terrible job.
Give how excellently D&D managed to bungle this season, this feels very much like the best possible outcome given what the rest of the season produced. A more-bitter-than-sweet ending with some arcs tied up, and others left unexplained. I can never forgive D&D for the first five episodes though. I can't think of another show which has such a dramatic drop in quality.
I guess we'll find out how Martin chooses to end it in a decade or three.
Dexter had a far worse drop in quality than GoT.
I haven't seen dexter, so I don't know if I'd agree with these ratings, but the last season and episode of game of thrones actually reviewed significantly worse than the last season of Dexter on IMDb, 6.6 vs 7.6 for the season, and 4.3 vs 4.7 for the last episode.
That's only because of how hyped GoT is. Realistically, the last GoT episodes were a reasonably-high-quality letdown for a massively overhyped and incredibly high quality show, whereas Dexter's last seasons were massive, massive drops in quality (= atrocious pieces of crap) for an otherwise excellent and very high quality show.
I mean, IMO that's exactly what the past four seasons of game of thrones were, though I suspect since it took this long for popular opinion to turn against the show, I might just have different ideas on what made it good in the first place.
I've seen the drop in quality but it's not that bad… it's just that book readers are disappointed to see stuff being changed and that increases the quality drop from their POV.
From the POV of someone who's just watched the show (and is very in tune with the whole universe book-included what with wikis existing), clearly the last 4 seasons weren't as good, and Season 5 was especially bad, but… come on. GoT is a good show. This was a good finale, and even though the final season was very rushed you could see it work out with more episode.
What I did in the final two episodes was play along and make-believe more context between scenes. People teleporting from Winterfell to King's Landing and back isn't an issue if you imagine "hey, this happened in the 6 in-between episodes that were cut from the show". Same with Dany going nuts all of a sudden.
I know it's not ideal, it sucks to have to do that, and I'm angry that the final season for such a masterful show was botched. But hey, come on.
I have to disagree. Any ending that completely bungles the series negates all rewatch value. Why cheer for Jon at the Battle of the Bastards and Hardhome when you know it's one giant, amateur fake-out hour?
If this were an anthology show, such as True Detective or American Horror Story, one bad season is no problem, since every season is new. Doesn't work when it's all one story unless the landing is solid. Thrones has joined, and even surpassed, both Dexter and Lost. You can find it right next to them in the $1 DVD dustbin. Breaking Bad remains the undisputed king of perfect television. I really wanted it to fall to Thrones and to see a fantasy series take that honor, but oh well.
The show goes from being a treasure you can watch over and over with friends/relatives/children decades later (such as Lord of the Rings and Breaking Bad) to a train wreck you won't even recommend at the water cooler. All it takes for that to happen is one bad writing decision, and Thrones had several.
I've already told some of the people I know who asked 'how was the ending' not to bother with Thrones, it's a waste of time. I get the 'I'm glad I waited and didn't waste my time' response more often than I used to - seems like people are getting wise to this crap and waiting until a full series is out to watch it. That's not great news for media and merchandise sales, or any creative company's bottom line. Messing up the ending is going to become more and more expensive to the bottom line, I think. Still waiting on how far HBO's subscription numbers drop over this.
I'm tired of making excuses for shitty television, and Thrones makes me even angrier about it than any show ever has, and far less likely to let it slide with a bunch of tepid excuses. I want the writers blackballed for life - deny them access to a pen. Fire them. Laugh at them at every given opportunity. Brand that shame right on their foreheads with a hot poker. Heckle them and chase them out of conventions, boycott people who employ them. That's 'justice' for destroying the work of hundreds of creatives and so many talented actors, directors, and producers during the final hour.
I do not love, or care much about, the people who produce crap like this. I am not willing to be nice, give them the benefit of the doubt, or otherwise be a 'nice guy' and excuse their failures. That used to be me, a long, long time ago. Now I'm starting to think that nailing these people to a cross is the only way we're going to get better television. If that makes me a 'bad person' I'll wear that badge gladly and use it as a weapon without the slightest bit of guilt or remorse. I'm making the conscious decision to become a hardcore troll over this and throw mercy under the bus, just like Dany.
I will say this - I've never been so motivated to write my own stories. I know I can do better than this - anyone can do better than this. At least in that respect, Thrones might just spur a bunch of new writing talent to get involved in the industry.
Let me also be crystal clear - this is a 'writers only' problem. Direction, production, acting... I almost never have issue with those things. It always comes down to the lack of talent hiding behind the pen. Every. Single. Time.
I have only read the first 1/3 of the first book, back in '97. Still waiting for the last one to come out before I start them all, and I don't blame George for this. I'll only blame him for not finishing the story before he dies, if it comes to that. I'm sure Brandon Sanderson can come to the rescue again. :P
?!?!
Holy moly you are far too emotionally involved with this stuff.
Like, really… don't do that. I still recommend Dexter, I just tell people "hey, don't watch the last few seasons". Game of Thrones is one of the most exceptional works of television available out there. S07E07 is quite possibly the highest quality television work in existence so far (that's definitely how I rank it, and I don't throw that lightly).
Man, I get it. I get being upset that the ending was botched. I also would like a do-over and I also agree there were many fan-made scripts that blow the D&D stuff out of the water. BUT, the following is also true:
And I'm tired of people saying D&D were running on zero source material. GRRM did consult and they were given the highlights at the very least (and IMO more). It's clear they've had to make up a lot of shit on their own but TWOW will likely have a lot of the same story as the last few seasons of GoT did, just… more context.
It doesn't make you a bad person, it just makes you wrong. That impacts no one but you. I'm very fucking upset at how Dexter was ruined (if you couldn't tell…). I still don't want to nail anyone to a cross. I just won't watch any more crap produced by the people behind that televomit.
I mean, reading your post I'm getting a seriously off-putting "fanboy-taking-it-too-far" vibe. Don't be that.
Like I said, I'm past caring if my attitude bothers people. I'll be telling people to watch The Expanse instead, and Better Call Saul, and Black Sails, and anything else that's good I come across. Support the shows and the writers and the networks that provide a fulfilling experience, and burn the rest. I don't need to recommend them 'damaged' shows with a bunch of caveats when I can recommend them solid shows with no reservations.
I have told people Dexter had its moments (that bathtub scene was awesome) and I'll tell them Thrones has its moments as well. I will also tell them that the endings are spectacular disasters. Funnily enough, when I mention the ending fails, most people don't seem all that interested in seeing the good bits. The ending matters - more than anything else, in fact.
I'd even say this has burned up some of the respect I had for HBO itself. I always considered them one of the best networks, and bought their shows on DVD/BR to support their commitment to good television. I am honestly boggled that they allowed this to happen on their watch. They (and Time Warner) were bought by AT&T a couple years ago and I feel like something was going on there in business-land that led them to take their eyes off the ball in the creative department. If Westworld S3 and the Deadwood movie are a boondoggle I may have to write them off. Netflix isn't all that much better, they just throw more at the wall. It's reached the point where I'm now cheering for Bezos to elevate television. What a fucking world. :P
I wanted to be a fanboy, and I was, even through the end of S7 where the threads were starting to unravel. S8E3 is the moment my forgiveness ends. Now I get to be the troll instead. I'll have my fun either way. ;)
Edit: Taboo. I keep forgetting we still have two more seasons of Tom Hardy's masterpiece to anticipate. If Thrones has let you down, and you fancy well woven patient plots, period drama, and intrigue, let Taboo fill that void.
Yah that's a much more reasonable post than your previous one tbfh :P Recommending other shows instead of GoT is fine, but saying "don't bother with Thrones" is overkill. That was my point.
I don't think I've lost any respect for HBO though. Yeah, this happened on their watch, but what are they gonna do, hold George at gunpoint? Hold off 6 more years on the final seasons of GoT?
Also re bezos… has Amazon produced anything of remotely high quality? Netflix at least had a bunch of sleeper hits in its "throw shit at the wall" strategy (Stranger Things, BJH, first seasons of OITNB, early House of Cards…)
Honestly I can't name any Amazon shows, I haven't been following them. They did rescue The Expanse from cancellation after a massive fan campaign, and the people writing the show are still the authors of the books (as god intended imo). The next season is set to drop shortly, and I'd say Amazon is in an excellent position to grab some mindshare from the people who want good television if it goes well. I hope they knock it out of the park, but only time will tell.
There's nothing like a headline saying, "Amazon grabs more than a hundred and twenty thousand disaffected HBO subscribers with a critically acclaimed season of The Expanse" to snap the people in the board rooms out of whatever fever dreams they get lost in and get them back to work. Competition is always a good thing. Multiple successful competitors is even better. We all win - more shows, better shows, more creative people employed, more art for the dusty pages of history.
I am going to be following all of the coverage of the Thrones apocalypse with interest. I've been seeing people with industry ties say it's so bad that books will be written and classes will be taught about this. I hope they are right.
I'm a bit miffed at the slide of Happy! as well. S1 was the best christmas story ever told, full stop. It's also self-contained enough that the rest of the show need not be relevant (like True Detective S1, which was also exceptional). Happy! S2 isn't 'bad' but boy, some of the magic is definitely gone. I feel like it's the editing that's changed, which is a weird one. That might be the first time the editing has ever felt so off to me, but the crazy editing is part of what made S1 so incredible.
My disappointment doesn't really come from being a book reader, or predates it anyway, I actually read the books for the first time as a reaction to my disappointment in seasons 5 and 6. Maybe the last few seasons of GoT could be considered good in a vacuum, or compared to contemporary television, but they represent a serious decline in quality from earlier seasons, and that makes them harder to watch than they might otherwise be.
Yeah. Remember when...
(spoilers - though at this point, I don't know why anyone would care)
Don't even get me started on the endlessly respawning armies of S8. Ugh.
My top 5 characters were Sansa, Petyr, Varys, Stannis and Tyrion. Season 5 hit hard, and things didn't improve.
I did enjoy Darth Sansa. I'd have liked to see Varys, Littlefinger, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Jorah, and Sam all advising Jon and Dany. Ser Barristan deserved to make it that far too, I think. Perfect opportunity to continue the 'game of thrones' all through the white walker plot.
I think it's completely fair to be disappointed, but how "bad" the later seasons are is ridiculously overblown. I say this in my most objective voice possible…
Crowdsourced online reviews are worth less than nothing when it comes to assessing quality.
I've seen both and Dexter's ending was much better. It at least has some satisfying analysis to explain why he did what he did.
I suspect Dany ends up having to take King's Landing from (f)Aegon rather than Cersei. And it's likely it really will be a "people love him and fear me" type of difference instead of expecting them to not side with Dany over Cersei, who we all know rules through fear already.
There is probably going to be a big greyscale epidemic as well. So perhaps Dany besieges King's Landing, Greyscale starts to take the city since they're all penned in, and she burns them all as a necessary purge. This gives her a nasty reputation, so she ends up leaning into it and becomes the burninator in chief.
The whole idea that at the end of show they've somehow "broken the wheel" by having Westoros select it's leader is just lazy. There is a whole continent still filled with slaves just across the Narrow Sea.
Many of the slave cities were on the brink of having the slavers take back over (in the handful of cities that Dany did liberate). Now I guess that's not important anymore because Tyrion tied up the ending with a neat little bow.
Not just a leader they selected an unnaturally long-lived tree-wizard with perfect sight of the past, and fairly reliable prophecies about the future, and the ability to warg into wildlife.
That has pretty serious implications for the country. It would be like if England rewrote its constitution to put some immortal Saxon shaman with fae magic in charge.
Wait? There was an alternative to Theresa May?
Best moment of the episode: when the North declares independence and the leaders of Dorne and the Iron Islands look at each other like, "Damn, I didn't know that was an option, we should have voted for that."
Anyway. I'm sure plenty of people will be able to point out everything wrong with this episode and this season but I want to look back at what's been great about this series. I heard about ASOIAF from playing the board game and it looked exactly like the sort of story I'd enjoy. I spent a couple years trying to find the series whenever I went into a used book shop but when I heard about the show (which I knew I'd watch) I broke down and bought the books retail.
Right from the beginning it was a community experience. People back in 2011 would see me reading the paperbacks on the train or the bus and strike up a conversation. After watching the first episode I watched it again with my best friends and drew diagrams for them trying to explain who everyone was and how they were related. As the years went on the show exploded in popularity and seemingly everyone watched it. I once met someone from rural Kazakhstan and even we could both talk about the show and books with each other.
Waiting for the new books may have been disappointing, and in retrospect the show-runners didn't really know what made ASOIAF good and they weren't able to replicate it when they were working without source material, but it's been a decade long experience with a story I love and it's been great to share in that with so many people.
So, here's to more good stories and the joy of sharing them with friends and strangers. Though this version of this story ended in a lacklustre way there are always new stories being told and old ones waiting to be discovered.
I actively disliked it. I went into the season not expecting much, and the first couple of episodes had me nostalgic and excited for how it would all end. But for my taste it one of the worst endings to a show I’ve seen. Taken on its own it was fine but if I think about any part of the ending for more than five minutes I am left wondering how HBO allowed it to be shipped at all. I think my one single biggest issue is with Grey Worm’s reaction to Daenerys’ assassination. Just minutes earlier he was cutting the throats of ‘enemies of the queen’ but just locks Jon up when he confesses to killing her? And then just sits around as the nobles let another of his prisoners pick the next king and free his other prisoner? I just can’t get my head around it. It’s not like he and Jon were pals.
That’s only one of a list of little incongruities that are bouncing around my brain this morning.
And then Grey Worm and the Unsullied immediately fuck off to Naath anyway (where they'll likely be killed by the disease ridden butterflies that kill foreigners) so why even bother sending Jon to the Wall?
Very true, I forgot how Yara was upset about Jon's actions which makes total sense. Though I can't say the same for Dorne, but maybe because Thenew, Prince of Dorne was only mentioned like once before his appearance in the finale so we really don't know much of his allegiances to either Dany or the Sand Snakes who previously pledged themselves to Dany.
And yeah, I guess while we as the viewers know that Jon has no desire for the throne, the council doesn't know that. And who's to say his children wouldn't feel differently. Tbh I'd love to see a spin-off a couple generations from now where Jon's children or grandchildren are upset at what they did to him and try to get Westeros to recognize their heritage. And Icefyre rebellion or something.
The butterflies is a minor point that I'm just poking fun at. You're right that Davos did mention the butterflies when talking about Naath but what point was there in that if not to be a clear reference to their lethality in the books.
The ending, where everyone unanimously agreed on who would be king, was completely incongruous with what went before.
The entire premise of the book is based on the simple fact that everyone wants to be king, and that there are a lot of back room machinations regarding heritage to the crown.
It's not an implausible ending, but I think it needed more depth that one speech from Tyrion and Sansa telling that dude to sit down.
It's an ending. So that's nice.
That kinda how I feel about it.
I know everyone wants fan service done for their personal favorite character, but if it ended w/ Danny's death, "You will always be my my Queen" J Snow and Drogon melting the Iron thrown. I think the end would have been more poignant. This meandering epilogue, was just flat.
Also the most emotional part of the whole episode was Drogon's reaction to Danny death. It is the only part that made me feel something.
*Edit: Cleaned up wording
During the first couple of episodes I thought they were building to something devastating and emotionally intense. Sadly, The Long Night felt farcical to me. I realised after the first souple of fake out danger scenes there would be a dramatic end to the episode but still the climax did actually surprise me for how cheap and tacky it was - I literally shouted "Oh Fuck Off" in exasperation at my screen. There's so much talk about "the algorithms" taking over the likes of facebook and youtube and the dramatic decline in quality, enjoyment and satisfaction. That describes my feeling for this season and the plots and actions of the characters we've spent so much time with - they're being controlled by some algorithm.
Finally the concluding episode. It just left me numb - not the numbness you get from having such concentrated emotion and stimulus where your brain just shuts down all the feeling because it's too much to cope with. No it's the numbness you get after sitting in a bath until the water temperature drops to body temperature - no feeling at all.
There really should have been some impact to seeing the end of the stories for all these characters but I felt nothing. In fact the only emotion I feel is annoyance - yes they still manage to piss me off. I mean Edmure Tully in your fucking finale? What was the fucking point?
This could be a perfectly good ending to a Game of Thrones. But not for the Game of Thrones that D&D made. I don't like how most of the stories were tied up.
That said, I think Tyrion's ending is the best of all of the remaining characters'. He's cursed to be the hand, seemingly for the rest of his life, even though it's the last thing he wants to do. But I'm sure his humility will work to his benefit.
Was it though? We only think that because he told us (like how most of the last season "told us" the characters thoughts and what to think of them). IIRC he was pretty stoked to be the Hand early on and was ALWAYS looking for some sort of validation from authority. If anything, this seems like exactly what Tyrion wanted.
It would have been nice if he had someone like Varys to enjoy it with... but he betrayed him last episode for ... reasons.
Same feelings here. Honestly, I wish D&D had just scrapped George's ending and written their own conclusions. They could have played to their strengths and not put the whiff of spoilers on the books.
I feel like I did after the first time I listened to 2112. Now what?
The season ended up being underwhelming but I went into it thinking it'd be underwhelming and took it for what it was. It was far from perfect but it's the only ending we're probably ever going to get and I enjoyed it. They did Jon dirty though.
Well, there's always more prog to enjoy. Something will come along and pick up the torch for good television. Right now my favorite is Better Call Saul. I also still have The Expanse to look forward to, hopefully it'll help wash the Thrones away.
I just started the Expanse about a month ago. Not nearly as much political maneuvering as early seasons of GoT, but the plots involving the UN leadership are really good. Avasarala in particular is great.
I think the politics of the Expanse are vastly different from GoT based on what I know of the latter(I've never actually seen the show or read the books and to be honest I don't even know why I'm in this thread). In the universe of the Expanse, even the most destitute rock hopper with a secondhand ship has the capability to end all life in the mainland of the three major powers in the story. I don't remember if it's explained in the show, but in the books right from the beginning it's made clear that if anyone wanted to, a slight orbital change on a medium sized asteroid is all it would take to induce an apocalyptic impact on Earth, Mars, or Ceres. Everyone knows this, so everyone always has to "pull their punches", so to speak when it comes to dealing with the enemy. The three powers are constantly trying to apply only the absolute minimum force required to gain advantages with relation to their adversaries, lest they provoke someone into flinging a rock at them.
It makes for an extremely interesting dynamic and a really unique backdrop to set a largely political show like that.
I didn't catch that from watching the show only. That's really interesting!
I came within 2 points of winning my office death pool, and even though I didn’t get a prize or anything, I’m proud to have accurately predicted all 3 bonus questions from our pool:
Unfortunately, my live/die predictions for the list of characters was much more cynical than the actual show. That’s where I ended up losing out.
They got everything right. Even down to how Bronn ends up on the small council and Jon pets the dog.
I'd give my right arm to see either Arya's voyages, or the hand's council travelling around fixing the kingdoms and having arguments.
Now that I've watched the full series (and most of it I've watched a few times) I'd like to read the books, because I understand there's a bunch of stuff in the books not in the show.
You may get your wish. They're doing several spin-off series is my understanding.
Setting up multiple spin-offs is the only valid justification I can find for this mountain of wasted opportunities. At least we know that D&D won't be involved in any of them, so there's the possibility they will be good shows.
I read there are five with two out of the script stages and those are set in a prior time. But we don't know much about the other three.
I haven't heard what you said about not continuing any GoT characters but that makes sense.
Thanks! That's more recent than what I was referring to.
Can we just talk about how Grey Worm and the Unsullied are going to drop dead within a week of getting to Naath? Did no one warn them?
What OP is referencing I believe:
Source: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath
I guess D&D kind of forgot about the reason why Naath doesn't need defending.
I'm sure they just didn't delve that deeply into the material. I had to look it up myself.
I seem to remember Davos saying "I hear it's beautiful down there, palm trees and butterflies" when Jon and Davos arrived on Dragonstone. How did D&D know there were butterflies without knowing said butterflies are lethal to outsiders?
More likely they just said 'fuck it' and stopped giving a shit about narrative integrity. Hardly the most egregious example. :P
I'm glad this disaster came to an end. I fast forwarded the entire episode.
Jon killing Dani was rushed and forced. The dragon melting the throne and carrying the body was cheesy. I don't know what to say, i just hate the series at this point.
Well, I mean you did fast-forward it ;-p
I'll mention it on the off-chance you're not aware: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a great collection of three short stories about Duncan the Tall that takes place before GoT. I actually like it as much or more than the series.
I must admit, there's a noticeable pall over the reaction videos this morning. Everyone who has been in denial about the show's tailspin just got dealt the coup de grace and you can see the light die right out of their eyes. Some get mad, some groan, some rage, some are still trying to make excuses half-heartedly, and a hell of a lot of regular channels are conspicuously late. Still, not every one I've seen has a bad ending, some are surprisingly uplifting. No thanks to HBO of course. :P
I think I feel a lot like you in regards to the last couple seasons. Did you read the books as well? I read them several times, listened to podcasts, read the Wikis, followed forums, etc. I feel like I've been ran over by a truck :(
But did you enjoy the memes?
Yes, hell yes. So far, my favorite is the rest of the ending.
wow!!! That's my new head cannon.
Thanks! I really needed that.
I read some of the first book a long time ago. I remember putting it (and fantasy) down at the exact moment Cat arrived in King's Landing. I was coming off a decade long voracious fantasy binge. David Eddings, Melanie Rawn, Piers Anthony, Anne McCaffrey, Weiss/Hickman, Terry Brooks, R.A. Salvatore, Robert Jordan... I honestly doubt there was a fantasy series out there I hadn't read, even the bad ones.
I ploughed through every single AD&D-based novel on the entire market. It started with Rings/Narnia when I was nine, and I spent nearly every moment of primary school with my face in those books. I'd blow $50 a week just buying paperbacks at Waldenbooks to supplement what my local library couldn't give me. Got to the point where I could read a 300-page book cover to cover in the time it took one of my friends to watch A Few Good Men.
I also learned not to bother - ever, under any circumstances - reading a series until it was finished. Thank Jordan for that lesson, I burned out on his endless morass around book seven, and I think that may have been the one I was reading before I started Thrones and part of why I put that book down. I'd become tired of interminable slogs with no payoff and the sameness of all the fantasy out there - which is rather ironic since bucking those trends is what put George on the map. If I'd made it further into the first book I might have been hooked again.
That's why I still haven't read Ice & Fire, and I won't until I can get the entire series. I haven't read any fantasy other than Potter since the mid-90s. I moved on to scifi/horror for a while instead, then to adult reading (non-fiction, actual science books, etc). I do have the first three books of Ice & Fire sitting here in my library, got them as a gift. I've been wondering if I should pick them up and eat them or continue waiting. I hate hate hate going years between books because the earlier books get flushed out of my 'cache' and I don't remember all the details, which is why I like to binge them instead - it's all fresh and I miss nothing that way.
So your disappointment from the shows is from a show-only perspective? That's telling about the show and how bad they goofed. See I thought my hate was coming from comparing the book to the show. It's nice to know that the show is bad by itself and it's not just me projecting my own book-expectations onto it.
It's definitely from the show only. The drop since the early King's Landing scenes and the storytelling in the first four seasons has been nothing short of cataclysmic. That just makes me want to read the books more. I was hooked on every conversation between Varys and Littlefinger - that kind of quality has been missing since the start of season five. I didn't actually hate it until season eight. Listening to the actors and writers try to blame the fans makes me want to sharpen my knives - that kind of egocentric ignorance is the death of so many shows.
The books are really a triumph. I've read a spattering of fantasy literature in my youth - Anne McCaffrey, The High King, some R.A Salvatore - and ASOIAF is like a mature version of that type of fantasy. The world feels very real as do the characters. The only thing that compares IMO is Lord of the Rings.
EDIT: You should read the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms! That's a set of three connected prequel stories. Each are fully contained stories but are best read in order. That would give you a taste of what ASOIAF is like without having to start an unfinished series. They're really stellar and I like them as much or more than ASOIAF.
Even the books dropped sharply after Storm of Swords. The strengths are still there in terms of the world feeling real and the characters, but the weaknesses also start manifesting. The plot meanders, we get more and more stuff piled onto the story that doesn't really service the main plot, and we get lots of discussion and elaboration on stuff that doesn't need elaborating on (like the meals people are eating or the clothes they're wearing).
That last part, by itself, isn't terrible but what it winds up doing is giving GRRM too many opportunities to indulge in really repetitive cliches. Things are described as dribbling down people's chins and onto their doublets hundreds of times (or near enough to make no matter) and everything is a "mummer's farce." It all just starts to feel so tiresome to read through. I'd be happy to read the first 3 books again, but the idea of reading through Feast for Crows or Dance with Dragons again just puts me off.
Heh, I know that feeling. Did anyone ever count how many scenes in The Wheel of Time involved the various female characters running around in their scant evening wear swooning over the various male characters and talking shit about everything? I'd be curious to stack that up against Ice & Fire's banquet count and see who wins. Even the Princess Bride gets flack for this, since literally half of that book deals with the wedding preparations. It's a common enough failing. Tolkien's exhaustive landscape descriptions also come to mind.
I haven't read Wheel of Time so I can't comment on that. As for the others, it's not that he goes into detail on these, it's the consistent and repetitious nature of the stuff he's describing to the point where they start to feel like stock phrases.
I disagree with your take. I think all of the books are strong. Sure, some may be a bit better than others (I personally dislike the first book the most), but I think your criticisms unfair.
What you consider extraneous and repetitive detail others may consider a style of writing. GRRM's food descriptions are to Tolkien's descriptions of landscapes. It's a style and it's deliberate. It's fine to not like it, but it's done on purpose. The man didn't spend 10 years writing Dance and not read his own work. And who's to say what plot points are extraneous or not when the series isn't finished? Ser Pounce could yet play some critical role later on. Who knows?
I'm sure he did, many many times. And I think that's the problem. When you read and reread the same bits too often you become less and less able to edit properly because the sheer repetition makes things seem like a natural fit. You get attached the characters, the story, your particular phrasing, etc. and have a harder time seeing their value objectively. It makes it more and more difficult to kill your darlings if you spend too much time with them. He very badly needed a more stubborn editor on those last two.
We also know that much of the content of DWD and FFC wasn't even stuff he intended to write out initially, and he only went down that road because he couldn't come up with a way to do a satisfying time-skip. Based on that, I'd say it's a fair assumption that much of the stuff introduced in those volumes are just instrumental to the central characters' journeys. How little of it wound up factoring into the show's endings bears this out.
While I think there may some truth to some of what you say, I still think both books are fantastic. We may just have to agree to disagree :)
That sounds like a great idea. I'm sure there's a copy in my local library system somewhere, I'll pick one up.
If you prefer audio books checkout Overdrive for free access to ebooks and audio books via your library. The audio book is narrated very well. :)
IIRC, it's narrated by the same guy who played the pyromancer on the show.
In all I wouldn't rate it to low compared to this season, but the whole season felt really rushed.
Too many tropes where used it didnt feel like there was any depth to it.
This ending was better than I expected with how the series turned after episode 2 of this season.
Or on a larger scale after they started going of script after around the red wedding I think.