From the article: Reading this article, I had one of those "oh shit, I am in this photo and I don't like it" moments. I suspect it will be resonant for others here (hope you don't mind the ping,...
From the article:
When Preeti Malani, a professor of internal medicine at the University of Michigan, reviewed six years of data on loneliness among older Americans, one pattern kept surfacing: the people most likely to report chronic isolation weren’t always the ones you’d expect. They weren’t uniformly the unemployed, the homebound, or the widowed. A significant portion were people who had spent decades being deeply competent at their work, people others relied on, and who had structured their entire social existence around being the person who could solve the problem. When that structure shifted, more than one-third of adults aged 50 to 80 reported feeling lonely, and the rates were far worse for those dealing with physical or mental health challenges. The numbers confirm something I’ve watched play out for years in high-performance environments: competence builds a particular kind of solitude, and almost nobody warns you about it.
...
What I saw at JPL wasn’t unique to space operations. Competence creates a feedback loop that looks, from the outside, like success. You solve problems well. People bring you harder problems. You solve those too. Over time, your identity becomes load-bearing. You are the person who knows how the thermal model works, who can trace the fault tree back to its root, who remembers why a design decision was made seven years ago. You become essential.
Being essential feels good. It also restructures every relationship around you into a dependency. The conversations people have with you increasingly center on what you can do for them. The social exchanges become transactional without anyone meaning them to be. You’re included in meetings because you’re needed, not because anyone thought about whether you’d enjoy being there.
...
Think about it in systems engineering terms. In a well-designed system, every component has a defined function. The more reliable a component is, the less attention it receives during nominal operations. You monitor the parts that might fail. The parts that always work become invisible. That’s good engineering. It’s terrible social architecture.
People who are consistently competent become the reliable components of their social and professional systems. They’re counted on. They’re not checked on. The difference between those two things is the entire gap where loneliness lives.
...
Competence is lonely because we’ve built environments where being good at things is rewarded with more responsibility and less connection. The better you get, the more you’re used. The more you’re used, the less you’re known. And the less you’re known, the harder it becomes to say the simple thing that would break the cycle: I’m not fine. I need something I can’t build for myself.
Reading this article, I had one of those "oh shit, I am in this photo and I don't like it" moments. I suspect it will be resonant for others here (hope you don't mind the ping, @SteelPaladin).
Footnote: Watchers of The Pitt can see Dr. Robinavitch as an archetype of the problem. He's the load-bearing expert that everyone relies on, but he can't allow himself to connect with anyone beyond the relentless demand that they become competent as well. From his standpoint, that might be a desperate cry for help and relief from a crushing burden. From everyone else's perspective, this can be a brutalizing and inhumane set of demands, yet Robinavitch is who the system has created. He's effective from the standpoint of delivering live patients, and dreadfully alone.
I’m struggling with this right now. I’m the competent person in regards to much of our software and I’m desperately trying to get other people competent because I just want to be an average...
I’m struggling with this right now. I’m the competent person in regards to much of our software and I’m desperately trying to get other people competent because I just want to be an average engineer for once. As some of those quotes said, I’m nervous whenever someone outside of my team talks to me at work, since it’s usually because they need something and not because they just want to talk to me. I find myself in miscellaneous meetings and on miscellaneous projects all the time and I just want to build some features instead of consulting everybody else on their features and workflows :(
My manager has been good about listening to me and we have taken strides to improve this for me, but I’m still sick of it. On one hand, the job security feels great when the world is like it is, but I often daydream about going to another job where I can just masquerade as an entirely unremarkable employee and just cruise for once.
I feel you, but I'm not sure there's any retreat available to being an entirely unremarkable employee. The personal qualities that got you to the level of reliable competence don't go away - you...
I feel you, but I'm not sure there's any retreat available to being an entirely unremarkable employee. The personal qualities that got you to the level of reliable competence don't go away - you can't stop seeing patterns and details, you can't easily suppress the desire to build interesting things or fix challenging problems. And you've probably found that many of your coworkers aren't wired that way, which is a PITA because (for me at least) the only way to stop caring is to burn out.
I've worked a long time in healthcare tech, and tried to de-stress by moving into a branch of the industry that seemingly wasn't involved in life and death systems and full-time competence wasn't so critical. Lo and behold, my employer started selling life and death products, and that's what I'm working on again. I'm now getting dragged into the program increment meetings - having the ability to say, "no, don't do it that way, do it this way" is actually more isolating.
It also sounds like you're being squeezed into a "glue employee" role, if you're being dragged into all the connector work that bridges the features and workflows into what you produce. Getting stuck doing product manager work at the same time as engineering work just because you're generally good doesn't mean you should have to wear more hats or fill in the communication gaps.
Yeah, this is why I just daydream about it, I suspect I will overachieve anywhere and end up with the same problem. I’m thankful, at least, of a good work life balance so that I can maintain a...
Yeah, this is why I just daydream about it, I suspect I will overachieve anywhere and end up with the same problem. I’m thankful, at least, of a good work life balance so that I can maintain a good social life outside of work. You’re right that I notice I’m wired differently than many of my coworkers. That’s not to say I’m better in the slightest. I’m surrounded by brilliant engineers, but they solve problems in different ways to how I solve problems and it means we live different work lives.
I do worry about being a “glue employee” as AI becomes more ingrained in software development. My company claims we don’t judge based on lines of code, numbers of MRs, etc, and only care about output, but it’s very clear that we’re becoming more metrics driven and, while current leadership knows I’m important, what happens in 5 years when we have different leadership and metrics show I don’t do as much, even though I know I’m one of our most valuable employees? I guess I’ll have to hope word of mouth continues to carry.
Have you considered the possibility that you are better? For instance, have you seen your coworkers take credit for work they did not do, or blame other people for problems that they, themselves,...
Have you considered the possibility that you are better? For instance, have you seen your coworkers take credit for work they did not do, or blame other people for problems that they, themselves, caused? I think that it's very common for good and competent people to head into work, see other people in ways of life that they find horrible, and then insist "well, I'm no better than these people" against all evidence. I think this is a mix of "egalitarianism," the bigotry of low expectations, and "don't hit me!"
I've seen a lot of highly competent people denounce themselves for things that other people do. One guy is vibecoding constantly and releasing a constant stream of unreviewed slop that doesn't work; the guy who fixes it denounces himself because 20% of the bugs are still getting through. Obviously the person who is actually trying to fix the process is in deep tension with the people who are trying to exploit it. They can only pretend to be friends.
This might be more personal to me (although it's happened so many times I don't think so) -- but I have to point at a social dynamic that seems relevant. In every workplace I've ever been at, there was a quiet conspiracy of the neurotypical employees against the neurodivergent ones, and there was manifest -- or even explicit bias. The workplace divided neatly between the people who had "street smarts" and the people who had "actual smarts," and the "street smarts" crew benefited hugely from open corruption and a playful willingness to gaslight the people who got the job done.
This is something I'm very pessimistic about -- and note that I don't know you! -- I'm speaking out of my own negative personal experience. This combination of features in my own work life made me feel very isolated until I started to accept that I just had very little in common with the people around me and that what they were doing was deeply shortsighted and self-destructive.
I've worked in big enough organizations to have crossed paths with the "street smarts" crew - some of whom were probably diagnosable Machiavellian sociopaths. But most of them are just playing the...
I've worked in big enough organizations to have crossed paths with the "street smarts" crew - some of whom were probably diagnosable Machiavellian sociopaths.
But most of them are just playing the game that competent technical specialists miss or devalue: the money game. They're acutely aware of the business reasons for the technical choices, what they need to do to max their contributions to KPIs, and how corporate power works. They are highly competent in their self-service, and the organization tends to replicate their apparent success. It's not long-term healthy for the organization, the people delivering the product, or the customers, but it's what C-suite sees, B-schools teach, consultants promote, and the stock market rewards.
And yes, this often involves gaslighting capable people, taking advantage of any vulnerabilities, stealing credit, and throwing people under the bus instead of taking responsibility for their own errors.
At the end of the day, if I cared about what I was doing, they were just obstacles to be worked around, so I suppose I was doing my own bit of Machiavellian strategizing.
To the extent that this doesn't describe your current coworkers -- thank goodness. To the extent that this does describe them -- I'm so sorry!! That's incredibly rough. I certainly cannot...
To the extent that this doesn't describe your current coworkers -- thank goodness.
To the extent that this does describe them -- I'm so sorry!! That's incredibly rough. I certainly cannot recommend trying to make nice with people who behave like this, though, because it is beneficial to them for you to feel that you're inferior and they make money by stomping on your face.
Oh, they're still around, but one of the things I love about being an IC again is that they're much less often my problem to deal with. I tip off my manager when I see them coming, though, and...
Oh, they're still around, but one of the things I love about being an IC again is that they're much less often my problem to deal with. I tip off my manager when I see them coming, though, and I've got a thicker skin than I used to.
I don't quite think that way at my current work place. I have had jobs in the past in retail or food service, where it was clear that my skill set at that particular job appeared better than some...
I don't quite think that way at my current work place. I have had jobs in the past in retail or food service, where it was clear that my skill set at that particular job appeared better than some coworkers, but in retrospect I actually respect them more for putting in the effort worth their pay vs me busting my ass for $11 an hour or whatever.
At my current place, I do think I'm better at being a "glue" employee or more of a "generalist" than most, but I have team members that are smart as hell and brilliant software architects. I'm better at some things than they are, but they're better at some things that I am. Not to mention that outside of work, we also live vastly different lives. Some people are good at raising families, I'm good at strategy games, etc. I don't really like to think that I'm better than others. There are people in my company that I sometimes have the perception of them being underqualified or unfit, but I also only know 10% of their work life from when they interact with me, so I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but it is frustrating to me how much reliance there is on me at work, too.
I do know that there are people who take others credit and otherwise play the office politics game, but the people at my job are, as far as I'm aware, not doing that as much. I did have a third party vendor steal my credit a few weeks ago, though.
Eh, there's a wide range. I've seen corporate climbers that hang on leaderships' every word, with nary an independent thought. I know "selfish" people that only do exactly what they need to clean...
The workplace divided neatly between the people who had "street smarts" and the people who had "actual smarts," and the "street smarts" crew benefited hugely from open corruption and a playful willingness to gaslight the people who got the job done.
Eh, there's a wide range. I've seen corporate climbers that hang on leaderships' every word, with nary an independent thought. I know "selfish" people that only do exactly what they need to clean their plate. I've also seen vicious sociopaths that play the game far too well.
The values are often different for all these people, and many of the behaviors aren't conscious decisions. I actually seek out the conscious sociopaths because they're transactional and easier to understand. I worry the most about unpredictability and timidness. Social systems work best when everyone communicates honestly and clearly.
I know the other thread points to the idea that you will fall into this role anywhere you go, but I wanted to offer a different perspective. I do think once you've become the key player, you can't...
I know the other thread points to the idea that you will fall into this role anywhere you go, but I wanted to offer a different perspective. I do think once you've become the key player, you can't undo that at the same company, but I think that by understanding that dynamic and being intentional, you might control how it happens at a new place.
I was the glue/competent go-to at my last job, and it really did stress me out, especially when people were going in direction for "business reasons" that didn't make sense to me.
I switched to a new role at a different company that's in a similar place in terms of startup lifecycle, similar kind of product, but a different market. I'm among the most senior people on the team, but as I "get my sea legs" with the new product/team/market, I'm mindful of the ways that I take responsibility. I'm trying to keep at least some of my responsibilities in the "teach a person to fish" category, and making sure that other people are involved in my work so that I don't become a tower of knowledge. It's still fairly early, but so far, it seems to be working.
Yeah, that's what I often daydream about, but I suspect that I'm also just wired in a way where I want to solve the problems and work hard and apply myself. I worry that if I do find another job...
Yeah, that's what I often daydream about, but I suspect that I'm also just wired in a way where I want to solve the problems and work hard and apply myself. I worry that if I do find another job and "strive" to be average and unremarkable that I'll find a way to make people reliant on me.
At my current job, I'm mindful of new responsibilities I take on. As I said, my manager is on my side and we've been taking deliberate steps to spread the "special projects" out so it isn't just me doing them.
Outside of work, I do have a couple of friend circles where I'm the "mom" of the group, which is also stressful, frustrating, and a similar dynamic, where I'm the one that's expected to do the emotional heavy lifting when someone's having a bad day, and I don't get emotional labor back in return when I'm having bad days. That said, that's only one or two friend circles and I have others where I'm not doing the emotional heavy lifting, but I've noticed those are the friends I only hang out with once a month instead of once a week.
It's hard for me to know if this is just how I'm wired or if I allowed myself to be abused at work through my own gullibility and work ethic. For my friends, I liked being the "mom" at first, because I do genuinely like helping and comforting people, but after years of giving emotional energy and not getting it back, I'm just exhausted.
This is so hard, especially if you have formed attachments and genuinely care for them. My therapist always says, "If you don't care for yourself first, you won't have the resources available to...
For my friends, I liked being the "mom" at first, because I do genuinely like helping and comforting people, but after years of giving emotional energy and not getting it back, I'm just exhausted.
This is so hard, especially if you have formed attachments and genuinely care for them. My therapist always says, "If you don't care for yourself first, you won't have the resources available to care for others." Sometimes this is framed as "you can't pour from an empty cup." I find this difficult to do in practice because there's always someone that needs help with something. But I have gotten better at finding a balance where I can take time for myself and feel refreshed by it rather than guilty.
I wonder if you could have a partner, family member, or trusted friend "be your manager" with respect to your friend groups and help you evaluate which things to get involved in.
Thank you. Yeah, I talk to my sister quite a bit, she’s my best friend, but she’s just finishing up her masters this year, so I haven’t seen her in a few months now :(
Thank you. Yeah, I talk to my sister quite a bit, she’s my best friend, but she’s just finishing up her masters this year, so I haven’t seen her in a few months now :(
It takes time to learn how to ask for some reciprocity. It's not gullibility, it's ingrained Protestant work ethic fear of punishment - joblessness, social judgment, uselessness. But wearing...
It takes time to learn how to ask for some reciprocity. It's not gullibility, it's ingrained Protestant work ethic fear of punishment - joblessness, social judgment, uselessness. But wearing yourself out being useful serves no one but those exploiting you.
It's okay to feel unfairly burdened and push back, both with work and with friends. You don't have to justify your existence by carrying a big load. If things would fall apart without what you're doing, maybe let them fall apart, just a little, and see whether anyone steps up to help if you ask.
I can't say that I've been entirely successful, but I'm currently testing the idea: "what if I pour all my workcohol into something I own. If I can't stop behaving like this, why would I give it...
I can't say that I've been entirely successful, but I'm currently testing the idea: "what if I pour all my workcohol into something I own. If I can't stop behaving like this, why would I give it so freely to somebody else instead of potentially also receiving the benefits."
That's not a perfect way to look at the situation, there are probably many paths to success, etc, etc. But, I'll see how this goes.
When you pour your effort into your own work, be as attentive to how many hours you are putting in as you were when you were working for someone else. I've known too many business owners who were...
When you pour your effort into your own work, be as attentive to how many hours you are putting in as you were when you were working for someone else. I've known too many business owners who were working twice as hard for half as much pay while thinking that they were building something bigger than themselves, only for the business to evaporate when they burned out. Even for yourself, your cup is not endless.
That's a fair warning and something I do consider. There are lots of businesses that seem to trap owners, not quite failing, but not succeeding enough to relieve the owner of the of that squeezing...
be as attentive to how many hours you are putting in as you were when you were working for someone else... your cup is not endless.
That's a fair warning and something I do consider.
There are lots of businesses that seem to trap owners, not quite failing, but not succeeding enough to relieve the owner of the of that squeezing feeling, exhausting them. They can require more money or time than just taking a job would, meaning they aren't always most optimal or "meta" approach to using ones time or even surviving.
So, it has it's own risks and stressors (especially right now... what if we can't make payroll for people, is this law about to change, etc), but for me the stuff that came before did too.
Personally, I had to at least try, or I'd always be wondering if I'm putting my energy and focus into the right places. I frame it here as an exploration because I 100% do not want to indicate that it's some kind of silver bullet, just another outlook or path.
Absolutely. I never want to say whether running a small business is or isn't the right choice for anyone, I just try to make sure people are thinking about taking care of themselves while doing...
Absolutely. I never want to say whether running a small business is or isn't the right choice for anyone, I just try to make sure people are thinking about taking care of themselves while doing something that is fundamentally challenging.
I feel like the root issue is that people (in America) don't value equal, adult friendships. This is what happens when your entire social circle is work + family. People depend on you at work,...
I feel like the root issue is that people (in America) don't value equal, adult friendships. This is what happens when your entire social circle is work + family. People depend on you at work, your family depends on you at home.
It doesn't have to be this way, you don't have to move out to the middle of nowhere suburbs so you can have a backyard the size of Wales for your kids to frolick in.
It feels like in America there's this accepted wisdom that as you grow older, your life will revolve entirely around your family and kids and that's the expected and only path, which just isn't true. You can have kids, and you can have friends that you hang out with outside of work, and it is usually much easier to do when you don't live in the middle of nowhere.
Bang on. The suburbs look so promising in the flyers, but when you spend your spare time in traffic, filling your big house with stuff, and driving to any and all destinations, it's no wonder that...
Bang on. The suburbs look so promising in the flyers, but when you spend your spare time in traffic, filling your big house with stuff, and driving to any and all destinations, it's no wonder that there's none left for you.
Everybody determines the ills of their generation and the world from their own vantage point, but one that's particularly interesting to me is what the internet suggests suburban guys in their forties should buy.
There's this upswing in man caves, retro gaming and everything else to help you chase the feeling of being young again, and mostly (if say) because the only hours you have free are when your day is done, your energy is spent and all you want is to feel good.
I don't have a family and even if I were dating someone, that just seems like so much on top of having to work and my hobbies. I know so many people at work that just don't have a single hobby or...
I don't have a family and even if I were dating someone, that just seems like so much on top of having to work and my hobbies. I know so many people at work that just don't have a single hobby or interesting thing they do outside of raising a family and maybe taking a vacation once a year. I just can't imagine, it doesn't compute to me. It's already hard enough trying to keep up socially as a single person on top of dedicating a third of my waking week to generating revenue for some rich fucks.
The place is ripe with them. House, M.D.. And Sherlock Holmes. Every top hitman. Hattori Hanzo and every great hermit sensei in that trope (Yoda). The Man in Black trope. All are masters in their...
Watchers of The Pitt can see Dr. Robinavitch as an archetype of the problem
The place is ripe with them. House, M.D.. And Sherlock Holmes. Every top hitman. Hattori Hanzo and every great hermit sensei in that trope (Yoda). The Man in Black trope. All are masters in their trade, and alone one way or another.
Appreciate the thought and the ping! Very interesting, and definitely gives me something to think about. I have a diverse and well rounded set of social circles, but this absolutely warns me not...
Appreciate the thought and the ping! Very interesting, and definitely gives me something to think about. I have a diverse and well rounded set of social circles, but this absolutely warns me not to hinge my participation in those on my being "he who shoulders the burden".
Out of curiosity, those that see themselves in this article, are you the type that Work becomes all encompassing? I ask because I see this in people I know. My sibling is highly competent, but all...
Out of curiosity, those that see themselves in this article, are you the type that Work becomes all encompassing?
I ask because I see this in people I know. My sibling is highly competent, but all she does is work, her life centers around it and not much else. She goes in early, stays late and does paperwork at home. She's a doctor, so I can appreciate the need to take care of her patients, but I rarely see her and she rarely sees my kids and doesn't socialize much at all.
I also have a friend, who was my colleague at one time, who seemed lonely for a period and a large part of that (they could answer for themselves, if they see this post) felt to me like it was because they were very engaged with work, often working even when home. This is another person I would consider highly competent.
But in my friends case, they finally had an epiphany that what we were doing wasn't crucial, wasn't life saving and the company didn't actually give a shit about us (I'm going to credit myself with trying to hammer this into them for the years we worked together) and since then has very much expanded their social group and become something of a social butterfly, I'd say.
Anecdotally, it seems to me that highly competent people are also Workaholics and this is what often compromises other areas of life, such as being social and I can see that leading to loneliness.
This feels like the entire thrust of the article and its kind of frustrating they don't recognize or even address it. I see myself in the article in that at work, I am absolutely the highly...
it seems to me that highly competent people are also Workaholics and this is what often compromises other areas of life, such as being social and I can see that leading to loneliness.
This feels like the entire thrust of the article and its kind of frustrating they don't recognize or even address it.
I see myself in the article in that at work, I am absolutely the highly competent one. It's why I'm in charge of all the things I'm in charge of, and why I'm regularly the first person my director taps whenever we venture into anything new, need new standards, get a new tool, or anything else where that expertise matters. I'm also regularly tapped for firefighting teams, the "oh shit" we need something now to give to senior leadership.
But I also don't see myself in the article at all because I have such a rich social life. I'm part of an artist collective, I participate in local activism, I'm a leader on two employee resource groups at work, I help run a social media website, I'm poly with multiple partners, I'm a DJ, and I regularly go out dancing. My social calendar is absolutely booked solid, and I have endless people I can socialize with at pretty much any minute. But basically all of that (absent the ERG leadership) is a life outside of work which seems to be entirely absent from what the author is writing about. Of course you would feel socially isolated if you spend all your waking hours at work and don't have a social life? Like that's the definition of social isolation?? If you're going to make work your life, you need to have work friends and you probably need to be going places outside of work with these folks to facilitate genuine social interactions that aren't just about whatever project you're working on.
It's really a matter of temperament. I'm enough of an introvert that the socializing I have to do for work can drain my desire for more time with people outside of work. I'd imagine this affects...
It's really a matter of temperament. I'm enough of an introvert that the socializing I have to do for work can drain my desire for more time with people outside of work. I'd imagine this affects many of the people the article describes.
If I didn't have the option of remote days to recharge my social batteries, I expect I'd spend all my weekends in a chair with a book or on the computer, instead of seeing friends.
Oh certainly! Work can be draining in so many different ways. Long hours are tough, I'd imagine even more so if you find them socially draining. Many coworkers have claimed that they don't really...
Oh certainly! Work can be draining in so many different ways. Long hours are tough, I'd imagine even more so if you find them socially draining. Many coworkers have claimed that they don't really know me because I don't spend my time socializing at work outside of the minimum necessary niceties. I do respond if folks reach out or ask questions or try to socialize with me, but I'm fairly good at setting boundaries and redirecting when I'm feeling drained more-so than usual. Outside of very few individuals at my job that I actually like (and even then, not a ton), I also find work socialization draining. If I were more sensitive to that or didn't find some of the kinds of socializing I do energizing I could see how it would be hard to find the energy to socialize.
Either way I don't really see work itself being the problem so much as it is about the appropriate balance of a social life with everything else happening in one's life. Out of curiosity, if people checked in on you at work the way the author is suggesting, would you find it reduced your loneliness or would it just drain you even more?
It really depends on the person reaching out. I genuinely enjoy hearing other people talking about themselves and their lives, but it can be a strain to reciprocate when I'm a little embarrassed...
It really depends on the person reaching out. I genuinely enjoy hearing other people talking about themselves and their lives, but it can be a strain to reciprocate when I'm a little embarrassed about my peculiar niche interests, don't want to be the old person moaning about health stuff, and so on.
There are actually a couple of people I trust enough to discuss some politics, but again, there are topics I'm quite guarded about in the workplace. Generally, "bringing my whole self to work" is not on the table, and that may be another cause for people to feel isolated.
Yeah, this seems like it's focused on people whose whole social lives revolve around their workplace, which is unhealthy whether you're competent or not. At my last job, I was the competent one,...
Yeah, this seems like it's focused on people whose whole social lives revolve around their workplace, which is unhealthy whether you're competent or not.
At my last job, I was the competent one, and while that meant I kept getting interrupted to answer questions, I never would have called myself "lonely", because, frankly, I will never care about my colleagues in that way. And at 5 pm, I'd leave, and not have to think about them until I got to work again the next day. For those people who don't always clock out at 5, or don't have other adult relationships outside of work, I can see how this could be lonely. But the problem isn't competence - it's the fact that meeting people and making friendships as an adult is hard. Incompetent people might be able to make friends at work (I guess that's the implication of the article), but I suspect they're just surface level friendships of convenience that would fall apart pretty quickly if one person got a new job.
I worked increasing hours until I had a breakdown and now under the advice of my clinician I forcibly timebox to 8 hours on weekdays. This isn't my preference (I work on a healthcare system and...
I worked increasing hours until I had a breakdown and now under the advice of my clinician I forcibly timebox to 8 hours on weekdays.
This isn't my preference (I work on a healthcare system and emergency response from me has guaranteed at least one patient access to treatment that they wouldn't have otherwise received) but if I give an inch one day I'm expected to give a lot more than an inch the next day. The minute I make myself "available," the number of emergencies caused by my coworkers escalates to fill the exact amount of availability I have offered.
(Put another way: there is an exact personality type that hears "You'll work weekends to fix my bugs?" and replies by orchestrating weekend outages.)
Healthcare tech really gets under your skin - it's incredibly validating to think that what you do makes people's lives better, and might even save a few. However, it was forcibly brought home to...
Healthcare tech really gets under your skin - it's incredibly validating to think that what you do makes people's lives better, and might even save a few. However, it was forcibly brought home to me that it's not worth devaluing our own lives (and sacrificing our family or other relationships) to serve that particular Moloch.
Also, contemplate kicking the ass of whoever pushes to production on a Friday.
I'm not a great example because part of what makes me more competent at what I do also includes social handicaps. I know there are others here in the ASD group who have trouble forging social...
I'm not a great example because part of what makes me more competent at what I do also includes social handicaps. I know there are others here in the ASD group who have trouble forging social bonds easily, but are deeply engaged and find fulfillment in problem-solving.
I've certainly been a workaholic in the classic sense you describe - I used overwork to avoid personal conflict and feelings of failure. But I'm a little better now (thanks, therapy!) at having family relationships, hobbies, political engagement, and social circles outside of work.
I was highly competent at work, felt extremely isolated the entire time I was working, and worked so hard to the exclusion of all else that I completely broke my self and have spent the best part...
I was highly competent at work, felt extremely isolated the entire time I was working, and worked so hard to the exclusion of all else that I completely broke my self and have spent the best part of the last decade recovering. Partially my fault in that I didn't recognise that I was pushing myself way harder than was reasonable to expect of anyone, significantly my ex-employers fault because they repeatedly ignored flagging that the team was massively overloaded and that my health was deteriorating fast.
Edit: I saw others talking about neurodivergence in replies, I figured I'd add mine: diagnosed highly ADHD, perhaps some ASD traits but I didn't meet diagnosis criteria there due to (from what I recall) being very comfortable socially and reading people very well.
Business adores insecure overachievers, the people who "have whips in their heads", to quote Pratchett. We don't say "no", we're always available, trying to fill every paying minute of the day...
Business adores insecure overachievers, the people who "have whips in their heads", to quote Pratchett. We don't say "no", we're always available, trying to fill every paying minute of the day (and then some) with work to justify our existence. We're never personnel problems until we're collapsing from burnout.
Needless to say, this is a shitty way to live, and it can take years of therapy to get rid of generations of religious or capitalist propaganda damage.
Not for me. While I feel this article describes how people interact with me at work, I still manage to maintain as good of a work life balance as I can when I still am required to work 40 hours. I...
Not for me. While I feel this article describes how people interact with me at work, I still manage to maintain as good of a work life balance as I can when I still am required to work 40 hours. I do know people that are like that, though, and either work way too many hours or keep going back to school for years and years and years for degrees they don't need (while still working full time) because they just don't know how to not work.
I'm convinced I'm a complete imposter. The only contrary evidence I have is the number of people who come to me for answers, the relative complexity of the tasks I'm assigned or take on, the...
I'm convinced I'm a complete imposter. The only contrary evidence I have is the number of people who come to me for answers, the relative complexity of the tasks I'm assigned or take on, the successful completions, and the praise I get from customers and peers. At some point, you have to shrug and admit that you're wrong about how competent you are.
I'm not sure I'm willing to grant "most people think they are more competent than they really are." In my experience, incompetent people correctly presume that if they try to do things honestly,...
I'm not sure I'm willing to grant "most people think they are more competent than they really are." In my experience, incompetent people correctly presume that if they try to do things honestly, they will fuck it up. You need to have some level of self-awareness, as an incompetent person, to not get yourself fired.
I have met a lot of highly competent people who had been trained to espouse "most people think they are more competent than they really are" to keep them from getting the idea that they should take themselves seriously. This was also me during the worst years of my career, limply insisting that anyone could do what I did.
It's amazing the number of competent people I've met who've been gaslit into believing they're nothing special and should just shut up, or tolerate mediocre pay, or menial tasks, or were waved off...
It's amazing the number of competent people I've met who've been gaslit into believing they're nothing special and should just shut up, or tolerate mediocre pay, or menial tasks, or were waved off leadership roles. Hence the above snarky reply.
In fact, I'll go ahead and throw the hand-grenade and say "women especially". Because I'm an angry feminist who's seen too many capable female-gendered folks steered into burning up their competence doing documentation, invisible glue or database work, or "non-technical" roles like telecom, project management, or business analysis because they were never allowed to gain confidence when doing anything else.
I'd be one of those legions if my spouse hadn't been cheerleading with mutterings of "If only you had the confidence of a mediocre white man..." after he'd bring me problems to solve from his work. And yes, I have sometimes worked too hard because I had a point to prove.
In addition to the corporate gaslighting, I think certain backgrounds lend themselves to a predisposition towards self-dismissal. Having gotten into software development with zero formal training...
In addition to the corporate gaslighting, I think certain backgrounds lend themselves to a predisposition towards self-dismissal.
Having gotten into software development with zero formal training and a lot less practical experience than many come into the profession having under their belts, it took the better part of a decade just to dispel imposter syndrome. Even now I consider myself mediocre despite repeatedly having been told otherwise.
It’s a lot easier to lose sight of one’s own progression when you start out feeling like all of your colleagues are untouchable titans in comparison.
Oh, I know this one - I've had an unconventional career path, too, and stumbled into tech roles. But I've also had opportunity to discover that in many ways, the breadth of experience filled in...
Oh, I know this one - I've had an unconventional career path, too, and stumbled into tech roles.
But I've also had opportunity to discover that in many ways, the breadth of experience filled in important gaps that a purely technical education would have left untouched. As others have mentioned, I wouldn't call myself "expert" in anything in particular, but it turns out that even mediocre understanding across multiple knowledge domains can achieve results that pure specialists can't match.
THIS. Like, it's specifically women who are made to feel the need to clarify that anyone could do what they do, it's not special, they're not gifted (just hardworking) -- you get it. We don't need...
THIS. Like, it's specifically women who are made to feel the need to clarify that anyone could do what they do, it's not special, they're not gifted (just hardworking) -- you get it. We don't need special humility training -- literally the exact opposite would be better.
Oh, that article has great advice, thank you! I think I fumbled my way towards a similar understanding over the years, but mainly I just did the work in a very visible role and I got a reputation...
Oh, that article has great advice, thank you! I think I fumbled my way towards a similar understanding over the years, but mainly I just did the work in a very visible role and I got a reputation for not fucking up or fucking over anyone else to do it.
I've looked at contracting and consulting, and it's a rough world if you aren't temperamentally inclined to sell yourself relentlessly. If your partner just wants to do the work in front of her,...
I've looked at contracting and consulting, and it's a rough world if you aren't temperamentally inclined to sell yourself relentlessly.
If your partner just wants to do the work in front of her, it may be that she's not interested in that self-promotion aspect, not just a matter of confidence in her skills.
I think a key part of this correlation with loneliness is the age group -- 50 to 80. I'm younger than that and I appreciate being the load bearing one because that's job security. Most messages I...
I think a key part of this correlation with loneliness is the age group -- 50 to 80. I'm younger than that and I appreciate being the load bearing one because that's job security. Most messages I get are folks going "hey can you help me" with few to none "did you check out the new star trek," I prefer it that way and don't find myself lonely.
This probably in part stems from my previous positions, for instance in construction I'd been told I was getting the mark of the beast for getting vaccinated. And private grad school where I was the only one of two from public university versus the rest of the department that came from private universities and better off families, bitter that they were in my home state and disparaging both my state and background to my face.
But I also think younger generations in general have stronger work life balance and find more connections elsewhere. The idea of the Michael Scott boss viewing the office as his family worked in part because folks knew of someone like that.
It's common for competent, heavily work-loaded people to get to the end of their careers and have no f-ing clue what to do with themselves once they're no longer working. Everything they've used...
It's common for competent, heavily work-loaded people to get to the end of their careers and have no f-ing clue what to do with themselves once they're no longer working. Everything they've used to derive meaning on a daily basis is gone, the superficial work relationships have no continuity, and they've often backburnered family to the point of abstraction or divorce.
In my workaholic days, I saw where this was going and eventually quit (with some nudging from a fed-up spouse). I spent a year and a half recuperating, making friends with a bunch of older folks at the local YMCA pool, working at a winery (and getting locked down for COVID-19, though that wasn't part of any plan). I'm pretty rigorous these days about capping my work week at 45 hours, and getting social time in at least once a week. But work still isn't socially rewarding, though I have sustained a friendship with someone I met at work who was laid off.
I'd like to introduce the notion that meritocracy harms everyone (as outlined in this Atlantic article) and that those who are competent and rise to the occassion rarely benefit from their extra...
I'd like to introduce the notion that meritocracy harms everyone (as outlined in this Atlantic article) and that those who are competent and rise to the occassion rarely benefit from their extra effort.
The reward is just that you get to put in more effort.
Personally, I don't see myself in OP's article. I made the choice years ago that work is a means to an end, and while that leaves me at the senior end of mid-level work, it also leaves me happy. 35 hours a week, nearly six figures (Canadian, so it's not a crazy amount) and in an older neighborhood where cycling to work is possible.
I'm not gloating and I know that this isn't a choice that everyone would or could make, but like the article I introduced suggests, the spot at the top of the ladder isn't golden.
My advice is to find a rung that's comfortable, stay there, and be thankful that having spare time to enjoy life is a good exchange for the odd existential crisis that you're not reaching your full potential.
The stability is nice. I won't lie, the motivation to go above and beyond isn't intrinsic to the job and I miss that from other workplaces, but I like what I do nonetheless. I push the envelope of...
The stability is nice. I won't lie, the motivation to go above and beyond isn't intrinsic to the job and I miss that from other workplaces, but I like what I do nonetheless. I push the envelope of efficiency and innovation where I can, of course, but having the option to put that extra energy into work or personal projects at home is unmatched.
It seems like a workplace has to be pretty dysfunctional for things like promotions and raises to be entirely independent of effort? Sure, there are places like that, but it seems pretty cynical.
It seems like a workplace has to be pretty dysfunctional for things like promotions and raises to be entirely independent of effort? Sure, there are places like that, but it seems pretty cynical.
Na, it's just called the public sector. People get paid decently for doing a good job, but the workday ends after 7 hours and your time away from work is respected. Call it cynical, I'd call it a...
Na, it's just called the public sector. People get paid decently for doing a good job, but the workday ends after 7 hours and your time away from work is respected. Call it cynical, I'd call it a different way of doing business.
I suppose that in my ideal picture of the world, everyone has room to achieve their version of excellence, and they know that they have been given the opportunity and they value that opportunity,...
I suppose that in my ideal picture of the world, everyone has room to achieve their version of excellence, and they know that they have been given the opportunity and they value that opportunity, and then they actually do it. I can't imagine that for most people, excellence involves working over forty hours a week. There's way too much in life to spend so much of that time being degraded!
That's where I was aiming after the abusive job, and yet the responsibility load is creeping up again. Some of that is by choice because I have a low boredom tolerance, more curiosity than a...
That's where I was aiming after the abusive job, and yet the responsibility load is creeping up again. Some of that is by choice because I have a low boredom tolerance, more curiosity than a litter of kittens, and crunchy problems are so tasty. Much of it is not chosen because I have support responsibilities for others and few options if I lose this job, given some labor market disadvantages (remote location, age, etc.).
I guess I should clarify that for me too, the responsibility load is always there. What's different is that if there's only so much capacity to get the job done, it's understood that employees...
I guess I should clarify that for me too, the responsibility load is always there. What's different is that if there's only so much capacity to get the job done, it's understood that employees won't shoulder the load just because management deems it worthy. If people are expected to work over and above their hours, it's expected that the employer pay more for the request.
Uhm... I guess I am one of them. 90% of the chats I have with my colleagues start with "hey, how are u? By the way there is this problem I know you can easily solve. Could you please help?" Said...
Uhm... I guess I am one of them. 90% of the chats I have with my colleagues start with "hey, how are u? By the way there is this problem I know you can easily solve. Could you please help?" Said in one single breath.
On one side I kind of appreciate being helpful but on the other I dread the moment they won't call me anymore considering I know the trigger to connect with me is the problem... And without that they won't even think of me :/
You might be assuming that less capable people know what questions to ask, or how to assess the reliability of LLM results. Part of being the competent resource is immediately understanding the...
You might be assuming that less capable people know what questions to ask, or how to assess the reliability of LLM results. Part of being the competent resource is immediately understanding the context, answering the questions people didn't know how to ask, giving reliable results, providing broader framing of the problems to make them more easily solvable in future, or assuming responsibility for systemic troubleshooting or redesign.
uhm... no, not really but because most of the stuff they need from me is the knowledge on how things work within our organization. And the people to talk. I can't say they have tried to inquire...
uhm... no, not really but because most of the stuff they need from me is the knowledge on how things work within our organization. And the people to talk.
I can't say they have tried to inquire the AI and have found themselves in a dead end so i was the next in line. But that's a quite depressing thought so... if you don't mind i try to forget about what i just said :)
How did you get them to ask it all in a single breathe? Is it just the nature of your work? Most of the time I get "Hey" and then have to wait 5 minutes for the rest of their message asking for help.
How did you get them to ask it all in a single breathe? Is it just the nature of your work? Most of the time I get "Hey" and then have to wait 5 minutes for the rest of their message asking for help.
Uhm... nope. Usually when they need something they just say everything on the chat and wait for me to answer. The big silence happens after, when i provide them the answer they are looking for....
Uhm... nope.
Usually when they need something they just say everything on the chat and wait for me to answer.
The big silence happens after, when i provide them the answer they are looking for. Because they are not watching the chat... they are in a meeting or - i dunno - maybe the are doing something that need them to focus.
Anyway... sometimes i get a feedback that i was useful after days, something like a lonely "thx" written in the chat... and that is all.
The silence really strikes me sometimes.
Competence is definitely alienating. I thought being smart, calm, and capable would make it easier to connect with people, but like the essay says, you'll just end up problem solving for people....
Competence is definitely alienating. I thought being smart, calm, and capable would make it easier to connect with people, but like the essay says, you'll just end up problem solving for people.
Also, where do competent people hang out? I want to meet more people whose attention spans haven't been destroyed by TikTok lol
I mean, you should try to meet people in contexts where "competence" doesn't really apply. The article is mainly talking about work contexts; ultimately, work should not be your entire social...
I mean, you should try to meet people in contexts where "competence" doesn't really apply. The article is mainly talking about work contexts; ultimately, work should not be your entire social life. Work has inherent hierarchies, and it'll always be difficult to break past that (that's part of why drinking culture is a big part of many countries, since you can break past that with the power of alcohol).
Like if you're hanging out with your mates at the pub, what does "competence" mean? Who can drink the most? There's no goal, you're just hanging out, so inherently there is no need to be the "dependable" one.
I thought being smart, calm, and capable would make it easier to connect
It's actually the opposite in many ways. Research has shown that people feel a closer affinity to someone when they do a favor for the other person, rather than the other person doing them a favor. Scammers, spies, and other professional social engineers have long used this to their advantage.
All that is to say, if you are actively trying to build rapport with someone, it's more effective to ask them for help for something they can do than to help them.
Let me clarify: It is easy for me to meet people where they are at. It is not so easy for others to meet me where I am. I don't need help with people liking me. I don't need help meeting random...
Let me clarify: It is easy for me to meet people where they are at. It is not so easy for others to meet me where I am.
I don't need help with people liking me. I don't need help meeting random strangers. It IS harder for me to meet people that I consider peers and I find that alienating. I know the article was about his job, but this is a topic that hit home for me, and generic advice doesn't work here
I wish I knew the answer to this question! (I think patience_limited might be right that this is a good spot, but I'm really not here often enough to know.) I kind of have just collected people I...
I wish I knew the answer to this question! (I think patience_limited might be right that this is a good spot, but I'm really not here often enough to know.) I kind of have just collected people I trust and can work with as I've met them online. Something that made a big difference: I used to get a lot of socially awkward feelings when I liked someone and then re-contacted them in a second place -- now that mostly doesn't stress me out, so I can sometimes hold onto those relationships for longer.
Also, it's helpful to take an interest in the parts of themselves people bring to work with them that aren't their jobs. One person (who's spectacularly competent, so much so that everyone is...
Also, it's helpful to take an interest in the parts of themselves people bring to work with them that aren't their jobs. One person (who's spectacularly competent, so much so that everyone is certain she'll be running the place in a few years) loves her horse, another (also hyper-competent) is delighted to talk about 3-D printing, a peer is a spectacularly good photographer, a couple of people are in bands, I share an interest in spicy food with my boss's boss, kids are always a topic, and so on. I'd be happy to stay in touch with most of them even if I wasn't working there.
I'm not convinced by this. First of all, it seems to presuppose that people do all or most of their socialising at work, which is not the case in my personal experience. Even if all my...
I'm not convinced by this. First of all, it seems to presuppose that people do all or most of their socialising at work, which is not the case in my personal experience. Even if all my conversation at work was people just looking for something from me, the second I log off I can be on WhatsApp with my actual friends who have no idea I'm good for anything.
You’re included in meetings because you’re needed, not because anyone thought about whether you’d enjoy being there.
This is an insane sentence to me. Enjoy being in a meeting?
More importantly, for all we know it's getting cause and effect backwards. What if people throw themselves into their work because they don't have social outlets or the skills to initiate contact?
It's also an element of, this is what happens when you don't put any explicit effort in socialization at work. By default, no one is going to talk to you. That's just how it is. In a work-context,...
It's also an element of, this is what happens when you don't put any explicit effort in socialization at work. By default, no one is going to talk to you. That's just how it is.
In a work-context, if you're not actively trying to foster relationships, of course the only reason people talk to you is to ask you to do things. You're at work.
It's absolutely possible to make real friends at work, but you can't just exist. You'd need to connect with a coworker, talk about things other than work, and continue building that relationship. The key point when you actually have a friend is when you can meet up with someone after work, and have an entire conversation where you never mention work. At that point, it's a friend, and not just someone you get along with at work.
And it's also OK to never do that, it's still valuable to have "people you get along with at work" since you have to be with them for ~8ish hours a day anyway. But you can't expect people to form deeper relationships for no reason.
Okay, I'll be the first to admit I'm an odd duck, but I find some meetings enjoyable. I learn about how people's tasks relate to one another, get an overview of the bigger picture and any...
Okay, I'll be the first to admit I'm an odd duck, but I find some meetings enjoyable. I learn about how people's tasks relate to one another, get an overview of the bigger picture and any obstacles, I can observe the personalities and motivations involved, it helps others understand what use I can be in achieving their goals, and the discussion can aid in establishing accountability.
A meeting is a social occasion - I wouldn't count on it for forming friendships, but it does work to establish baseline levels of trust.
I felt this as I just went through it. This article was the reason I joined Tildes. When you are the team air support, you don’t have any air support you can call in. Even the vendor support often...
I felt this as I just went through it. This article was the reason I joined Tildes.
When you are the team air support, you don’t have any air support you can call in. Even the vendor support often runs away during critical moments. But everyone is leaning on you when in trouble. It definitely feels lonely, even for introverts who prefer their alone time. Who is taking care of the caretaker ?
I had someone check up on me and said, “I just wanted to see how you were doing.” Man, I really felt that and really appreciated it.
The whole thing felt like an existential crisis and a mourning.
I know the study was on those 50-80, but I’d say it can be just as lonely for bright eyed 20 year olds who are trying to find themselves or their Shining City. If they are in a new city with no pre-built network support, it can be even more lonely than someone with an established structure.
I think it would make a great follow up study for the author to focus on the lonely competence angle across age groups.
Overall I’m thankful though for the opportunity the role has given me. But I’d love to just have some peace of mind and unplug. Time for a vacation lol
Welcome to Tildes, and I'm so happy you found something that resonated for you! Even if it's a discomfiting realization... Honestly, when I first read the article the age stratification slipped...
Welcome to Tildes, and I'm so happy you found something that resonated for you! Even if it's a discomfiting realization...
Honestly, when I first read the article the age stratification slipped right by me. I've gone through that "how did I wind up with everyone looking at me for answers" multiple times in multiple different roles starting around high school age, and it's been terrifying and isolating every single time. The visibility, responsibility, and pressure (both external and internal) to never make mistakes stretches across professions for high performers, but doesn't always trigger empathetic responses from those around them. It's like you're in a different category of humanity - if you look like you know what you're doing, that competence must magically appear without the stresses experienced by people who aren't so capable.
One of the things about the age range is that responsibility piles up as you get more experienced. I did a stint in a middle management role, and that's even worse - suddenly you're alienated by hierarchy from the former peers you're trying to guide, and a potential threat to the others in leadership around and above you. At the same time, you're pretending to always know what to do next, maintaining a facade of imperturbability, and scrambling madly to anticipate the next curveball the universe will throw at careful planning. It's an organizational problem - there's no incentive for anyone to provide basic human empathy to "bosses", either. [The organizational psychology and business literature is no help here. Leadership is a murky thing that might as well be variations on apes looking for the biggest and strongest one to kowtow to in the interests of maintaining minimum brain energy expenditure.]
From the article:
Reading this article, I had one of those "oh shit, I am in this photo and I don't like it" moments. I suspect it will be resonant for others here (hope you don't mind the ping, @SteelPaladin).
Footnote: Watchers of The Pitt can see Dr. Robinavitch as an archetype of the problem. He's the load-bearing expert that everyone relies on, but he can't allow himself to connect with anyone beyond the relentless demand that they become competent as well. From his standpoint, that might be a desperate cry for help and relief from a crushing burden. From everyone else's perspective, this can be a brutalizing and inhumane set of demands, yet Robinavitch is who the system has created. He's effective from the standpoint of delivering live patients, and dreadfully alone.
I’m struggling with this right now. I’m the competent person in regards to much of our software and I’m desperately trying to get other people competent because I just want to be an average engineer for once. As some of those quotes said, I’m nervous whenever someone outside of my team talks to me at work, since it’s usually because they need something and not because they just want to talk to me. I find myself in miscellaneous meetings and on miscellaneous projects all the time and I just want to build some features instead of consulting everybody else on their features and workflows :(
My manager has been good about listening to me and we have taken strides to improve this for me, but I’m still sick of it. On one hand, the job security feels great when the world is like it is, but I often daydream about going to another job where I can just masquerade as an entirely unremarkable employee and just cruise for once.
I feel you, but I'm not sure there's any retreat available to being an entirely unremarkable employee. The personal qualities that got you to the level of reliable competence don't go away - you can't stop seeing patterns and details, you can't easily suppress the desire to build interesting things or fix challenging problems. And you've probably found that many of your coworkers aren't wired that way, which is a PITA because (for me at least) the only way to stop caring is to burn out.
I've worked a long time in healthcare tech, and tried to de-stress by moving into a branch of the industry that seemingly wasn't involved in life and death systems and full-time competence wasn't so critical. Lo and behold, my employer started selling life and death products, and that's what I'm working on again. I'm now getting dragged into the program increment meetings - having the ability to say, "no, don't do it that way, do it this way" is actually more isolating.
It also sounds like you're being squeezed into a "glue employee" role, if you're being dragged into all the connector work that bridges the features and workflows into what you produce. Getting stuck doing product manager work at the same time as engineering work just because you're generally good doesn't mean you should have to wear more hats or fill in the communication gaps.
Yeah, this is why I just daydream about it, I suspect I will overachieve anywhere and end up with the same problem. I’m thankful, at least, of a good work life balance so that I can maintain a good social life outside of work. You’re right that I notice I’m wired differently than many of my coworkers. That’s not to say I’m better in the slightest. I’m surrounded by brilliant engineers, but they solve problems in different ways to how I solve problems and it means we live different work lives.
I do worry about being a “glue employee” as AI becomes more ingrained in software development. My company claims we don’t judge based on lines of code, numbers of MRs, etc, and only care about output, but it’s very clear that we’re becoming more metrics driven and, while current leadership knows I’m important, what happens in 5 years when we have different leadership and metrics show I don’t do as much, even though I know I’m one of our most valuable employees? I guess I’ll have to hope word of mouth continues to carry.
Have you considered the possibility that you are better? For instance, have you seen your coworkers take credit for work they did not do, or blame other people for problems that they, themselves, caused? I think that it's very common for good and competent people to head into work, see other people in ways of life that they find horrible, and then insist "well, I'm no better than these people" against all evidence. I think this is a mix of "egalitarianism," the bigotry of low expectations, and "don't hit me!"
I've seen a lot of highly competent people denounce themselves for things that other people do. One guy is vibecoding constantly and releasing a constant stream of unreviewed slop that doesn't work; the guy who fixes it denounces himself because 20% of the bugs are still getting through. Obviously the person who is actually trying to fix the process is in deep tension with the people who are trying to exploit it. They can only pretend to be friends.
This might be more personal to me (although it's happened so many times I don't think so) -- but I have to point at a social dynamic that seems relevant. In every workplace I've ever been at, there was a quiet conspiracy of the neurotypical employees against the neurodivergent ones, and there was manifest -- or even explicit bias. The workplace divided neatly between the people who had "street smarts" and the people who had "actual smarts," and the "street smarts" crew benefited hugely from open corruption and a playful willingness to gaslight the people who got the job done.
This is something I'm very pessimistic about -- and note that I don't know you! -- I'm speaking out of my own negative personal experience. This combination of features in my own work life made me feel very isolated until I started to accept that I just had very little in common with the people around me and that what they were doing was deeply shortsighted and self-destructive.
I've worked in big enough organizations to have crossed paths with the "street smarts" crew - some of whom were probably diagnosable Machiavellian sociopaths.
But most of them are just playing the game that competent technical specialists miss or devalue: the money game. They're acutely aware of the business reasons for the technical choices, what they need to do to max their contributions to KPIs, and how corporate power works. They are highly competent in their self-service, and the organization tends to replicate their apparent success. It's not long-term healthy for the organization, the people delivering the product, or the customers, but it's what C-suite sees, B-schools teach, consultants promote, and the stock market rewards.
And yes, this often involves gaslighting capable people, taking advantage of any vulnerabilities, stealing credit, and throwing people under the bus instead of taking responsibility for their own errors.
At the end of the day, if I cared about what I was doing, they were just obstacles to be worked around, so I suppose I was doing my own bit of Machiavellian strategizing.
To the extent that this doesn't describe your current coworkers -- thank goodness.
To the extent that this does describe them -- I'm so sorry!! That's incredibly rough. I certainly cannot recommend trying to make nice with people who behave like this, though, because it is beneficial to them for you to feel that you're inferior and they make money by stomping on your face.
Oh, they're still around, but one of the things I love about being an IC again is that they're much less often my problem to deal with. I tip off my manager when I see them coming, though, and I've got a thicker skin than I used to.
(I adore that! I think that's deeply valid.))
I don't quite think that way at my current work place. I have had jobs in the past in retail or food service, where it was clear that my skill set at that particular job appeared better than some coworkers, but in retrospect I actually respect them more for putting in the effort worth their pay vs me busting my ass for $11 an hour or whatever.
At my current place, I do think I'm better at being a "glue" employee or more of a "generalist" than most, but I have team members that are smart as hell and brilliant software architects. I'm better at some things than they are, but they're better at some things that I am. Not to mention that outside of work, we also live vastly different lives. Some people are good at raising families, I'm good at strategy games, etc. I don't really like to think that I'm better than others. There are people in my company that I sometimes have the perception of them being underqualified or unfit, but I also only know 10% of their work life from when they interact with me, so I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but it is frustrating to me how much reliance there is on me at work, too.
I do know that there are people who take others credit and otherwise play the office politics game, but the people at my job are, as far as I'm aware, not doing that as much. I did have a third party vendor steal my credit a few weeks ago, though.
Eh, there's a wide range. I've seen corporate climbers that hang on leaderships' every word, with nary an independent thought. I know "selfish" people that only do exactly what they need to clean their plate. I've also seen vicious sociopaths that play the game far too well.
The values are often different for all these people, and many of the behaviors aren't conscious decisions. I actually seek out the conscious sociopaths because they're transactional and easier to understand. I worry the most about unpredictability and timidness. Social systems work best when everyone communicates honestly and clearly.
I know the other thread points to the idea that you will fall into this role anywhere you go, but I wanted to offer a different perspective. I do think once you've become the key player, you can't undo that at the same company, but I think that by understanding that dynamic and being intentional, you might control how it happens at a new place.
I was the glue/competent go-to at my last job, and it really did stress me out, especially when people were going in direction for "business reasons" that didn't make sense to me.
I switched to a new role at a different company that's in a similar place in terms of startup lifecycle, similar kind of product, but a different market. I'm among the most senior people on the team, but as I "get my sea legs" with the new product/team/market, I'm mindful of the ways that I take responsibility. I'm trying to keep at least some of my responsibilities in the "teach a person to fish" category, and making sure that other people are involved in my work so that I don't become a tower of knowledge. It's still fairly early, but so far, it seems to be working.
Yeah, that's what I often daydream about, but I suspect that I'm also just wired in a way where I want to solve the problems and work hard and apply myself. I worry that if I do find another job and "strive" to be average and unremarkable that I'll find a way to make people reliant on me.
At my current job, I'm mindful of new responsibilities I take on. As I said, my manager is on my side and we've been taking deliberate steps to spread the "special projects" out so it isn't just me doing them.
Outside of work, I do have a couple of friend circles where I'm the "mom" of the group, which is also stressful, frustrating, and a similar dynamic, where I'm the one that's expected to do the emotional heavy lifting when someone's having a bad day, and I don't get emotional labor back in return when I'm having bad days. That said, that's only one or two friend circles and I have others where I'm not doing the emotional heavy lifting, but I've noticed those are the friends I only hang out with once a month instead of once a week.
It's hard for me to know if this is just how I'm wired or if I allowed myself to be abused at work through my own gullibility and work ethic. For my friends, I liked being the "mom" at first, because I do genuinely like helping and comforting people, but after years of giving emotional energy and not getting it back, I'm just exhausted.
This is so hard, especially if you have formed attachments and genuinely care for them. My therapist always says, "If you don't care for yourself first, you won't have the resources available to care for others." Sometimes this is framed as "you can't pour from an empty cup." I find this difficult to do in practice because there's always someone that needs help with something. But I have gotten better at finding a balance where I can take time for myself and feel refreshed by it rather than guilty.
I wonder if you could have a partner, family member, or trusted friend "be your manager" with respect to your friend groups and help you evaluate which things to get involved in.
Thank you. Yeah, I talk to my sister quite a bit, she’s my best friend, but she’s just finishing up her masters this year, so I haven’t seen her in a few months now :(
That's a real bummer. I hope you have a lovey reunion when she gets a break.
It takes time to learn how to ask for some reciprocity. It's not gullibility, it's ingrained Protestant work ethic fear of punishment - joblessness, social judgment, uselessness. But wearing yourself out being useful serves no one but those exploiting you.
It's okay to feel unfairly burdened and push back, both with work and with friends. You don't have to justify your existence by carrying a big load. If things would fall apart without what you're doing, maybe let them fall apart, just a little, and see whether anyone steps up to help if you ask.
Thank you. Yeah, I’m starting to step back both in work and in my social life. I’m just running on empty and need to work on myself for a bit.
I can't say that I've been entirely successful, but I'm currently testing the idea: "what if I pour all my workcohol into something I own. If I can't stop behaving like this, why would I give it so freely to somebody else instead of potentially also receiving the benefits."
That's not a perfect way to look at the situation, there are probably many paths to success, etc, etc. But, I'll see how this goes.
When you pour your effort into your own work, be as attentive to how many hours you are putting in as you were when you were working for someone else. I've known too many business owners who were working twice as hard for half as much pay while thinking that they were building something bigger than themselves, only for the business to evaporate when they burned out. Even for yourself, your cup is not endless.
That's a fair warning and something I do consider.
There are lots of businesses that seem to trap owners, not quite failing, but not succeeding enough to relieve the owner of the of that squeezing feeling, exhausting them. They can require more money or time than just taking a job would, meaning they aren't always most optimal or "meta" approach to using ones time or even surviving.
So, it has it's own risks and stressors (especially right now... what if we can't make payroll for people, is this law about to change, etc), but for me the stuff that came before did too.
Personally, I had to at least try, or I'd always be wondering if I'm putting my energy and focus into the right places. I frame it here as an exploration because I 100% do not want to indicate that it's some kind of silver bullet, just another outlook or path.
Absolutely. I never want to say whether running a small business is or isn't the right choice for anyone, I just try to make sure people are thinking about taking care of themselves while doing something that is fundamentally challenging.
I feel like the root issue is that people (in America) don't value equal, adult friendships. This is what happens when your entire social circle is work + family. People depend on you at work, your family depends on you at home.
It doesn't have to be this way, you don't have to move out to the middle of nowhere suburbs so you can have a backyard the size of Wales for your kids to frolick in.
It feels like in America there's this accepted wisdom that as you grow older, your life will revolve entirely around your family and kids and that's the expected and only path, which just isn't true. You can have kids, and you can have friends that you hang out with outside of work, and it is usually much easier to do when you don't live in the middle of nowhere.
Bang on. The suburbs look so promising in the flyers, but when you spend your spare time in traffic, filling your big house with stuff, and driving to any and all destinations, it's no wonder that there's none left for you.
Everybody determines the ills of their generation and the world from their own vantage point, but one that's particularly interesting to me is what the internet suggests suburban guys in their forties should buy.
There's this upswing in man caves, retro gaming and everything else to help you chase the feeling of being young again, and mostly (if say) because the only hours you have free are when your day is done, your energy is spent and all you want is to feel good.
(Also see: binge eating before bed time)
I don't have a family and even if I were dating someone, that just seems like so much on top of having to work and my hobbies. I know so many people at work that just don't have a single hobby or interesting thing they do outside of raising a family and maybe taking a vacation once a year. I just can't imagine, it doesn't compute to me. It's already hard enough trying to keep up socially as a single person on top of dedicating a third of my waking week to generating revenue for some rich fucks.
The place is ripe with them. House, M.D.. And Sherlock Holmes. Every top hitman. Hattori Hanzo and every great hermit sensei in that trope (Yoda). The Man in Black trope. All are masters in their trade, and alone one way or another.
Appreciate the thought and the ping! Very interesting, and definitely gives me something to think about. I have a diverse and well rounded set of social circles, but this absolutely warns me not to hinge my participation in those on my being "he who shoulders the burden".
Out of curiosity, those that see themselves in this article, are you the type that Work becomes all encompassing?
I ask because I see this in people I know. My sibling is highly competent, but all she does is work, her life centers around it and not much else. She goes in early, stays late and does paperwork at home. She's a doctor, so I can appreciate the need to take care of her patients, but I rarely see her and she rarely sees my kids and doesn't socialize much at all.
I also have a friend, who was my colleague at one time, who seemed lonely for a period and a large part of that (they could answer for themselves, if they see this post) felt to me like it was because they were very engaged with work, often working even when home. This is another person I would consider highly competent.
But in my friends case, they finally had an epiphany that what we were doing wasn't crucial, wasn't life saving and the company didn't actually give a shit about us (I'm going to credit myself with trying to hammer this into them for the years we worked together) and since then has very much expanded their social group and become something of a social butterfly, I'd say.
Anecdotally, it seems to me that highly competent people are also Workaholics and this is what often compromises other areas of life, such as being social and I can see that leading to loneliness.
This feels like the entire thrust of the article and its kind of frustrating they don't recognize or even address it.
I see myself in the article in that at work, I am absolutely the highly competent one. It's why I'm in charge of all the things I'm in charge of, and why I'm regularly the first person my director taps whenever we venture into anything new, need new standards, get a new tool, or anything else where that expertise matters. I'm also regularly tapped for firefighting teams, the "oh shit" we need something now to give to senior leadership.
But I also don't see myself in the article at all because I have such a rich social life. I'm part of an artist collective, I participate in local activism, I'm a leader on two employee resource groups at work, I help run a social media website, I'm poly with multiple partners, I'm a DJ, and I regularly go out dancing. My social calendar is absolutely booked solid, and I have endless people I can socialize with at pretty much any minute. But basically all of that (absent the ERG leadership) is a life outside of work which seems to be entirely absent from what the author is writing about. Of course you would feel socially isolated if you spend all your waking hours at work and don't have a social life? Like that's the definition of social isolation?? If you're going to make work your life, you need to have work friends and you probably need to be going places outside of work with these folks to facilitate genuine social interactions that aren't just about whatever project you're working on.
It's really a matter of temperament. I'm enough of an introvert that the socializing I have to do for work can drain my desire for more time with people outside of work. I'd imagine this affects many of the people the article describes.
If I didn't have the option of remote days to recharge my social batteries, I expect I'd spend all my weekends in a chair with a book or on the computer, instead of seeing friends.
Oh certainly! Work can be draining in so many different ways. Long hours are tough, I'd imagine even more so if you find them socially draining. Many coworkers have claimed that they don't really know me because I don't spend my time socializing at work outside of the minimum necessary niceties. I do respond if folks reach out or ask questions or try to socialize with me, but I'm fairly good at setting boundaries and redirecting when I'm feeling drained more-so than usual. Outside of very few individuals at my job that I actually like (and even then, not a ton), I also find work socialization draining. If I were more sensitive to that or didn't find some of the kinds of socializing I do energizing I could see how it would be hard to find the energy to socialize.
Either way I don't really see work itself being the problem so much as it is about the appropriate balance of a social life with everything else happening in one's life. Out of curiosity, if people checked in on you at work the way the author is suggesting, would you find it reduced your loneliness or would it just drain you even more?
It really depends on the person reaching out. I genuinely enjoy hearing other people talking about themselves and their lives, but it can be a strain to reciprocate when I'm a little embarrassed about my peculiar niche interests, don't want to be the old person moaning about health stuff, and so on.
There are actually a couple of people I trust enough to discuss some politics, but again, there are topics I'm quite guarded about in the workplace. Generally, "bringing my whole self to work" is not on the table, and that may be another cause for people to feel isolated.
Yeah, this seems like it's focused on people whose whole social lives revolve around their workplace, which is unhealthy whether you're competent or not.
At my last job, I was the competent one, and while that meant I kept getting interrupted to answer questions, I never would have called myself "lonely", because, frankly, I will never care about my colleagues in that way. And at 5 pm, I'd leave, and not have to think about them until I got to work again the next day. For those people who don't always clock out at 5, or don't have other adult relationships outside of work, I can see how this could be lonely. But the problem isn't competence - it's the fact that meeting people and making friendships as an adult is hard. Incompetent people might be able to make friends at work (I guess that's the implication of the article), but I suspect they're just surface level friendships of convenience that would fall apart pretty quickly if one person got a new job.
I worked increasing hours until I had a breakdown and now under the advice of my clinician I forcibly timebox to 8 hours on weekdays.
This isn't my preference (I work on a healthcare system and emergency response from me has guaranteed at least one patient access to treatment that they wouldn't have otherwise received) but if I give an inch one day I'm expected to give a lot more than an inch the next day. The minute I make myself "available," the number of emergencies caused by my coworkers escalates to fill the exact amount of availability I have offered.
(Put another way: there is an exact personality type that hears "You'll work weekends to fix my bugs?" and replies by orchestrating weekend outages.)
Healthcare tech really gets under your skin - it's incredibly validating to think that what you do makes people's lives better, and might even save a few. However, it was forcibly brought home to me that it's not worth devaluing our own lives (and sacrificing our family or other relationships) to serve that particular Moloch.
Also, contemplate kicking the ass of whoever pushes to production on a Friday.
I'm not a great example because part of what makes me more competent at what I do also includes social handicaps. I know there are others here in the ASD group who have trouble forging social bonds easily, but are deeply engaged and find fulfillment in problem-solving.
I've certainly been a workaholic in the classic sense you describe - I used overwork to avoid personal conflict and feelings of failure. But I'm a little better now (thanks, therapy!) at having family relationships, hobbies, political engagement, and social circles outside of work.
I was highly competent at work, felt extremely isolated the entire time I was working, and worked so hard to the exclusion of all else that I completely broke my self and have spent the best part of the last decade recovering. Partially my fault in that I didn't recognise that I was pushing myself way harder than was reasonable to expect of anyone, significantly my ex-employers fault because they repeatedly ignored flagging that the team was massively overloaded and that my health was deteriorating fast.
Edit: I saw others talking about neurodivergence in replies, I figured I'd add mine: diagnosed highly ADHD, perhaps some ASD traits but I didn't meet diagnosis criteria there due to (from what I recall) being very comfortable socially and reading people very well.
Business adores insecure overachievers, the people who "have whips in their heads", to quote Pratchett. We don't say "no", we're always available, trying to fill every paying minute of the day (and then some) with work to justify our existence. We're never personnel problems until we're collapsing from burnout.
Needless to say, this is a shitty way to live, and it can take years of therapy to get rid of generations of religious or capitalist propaganda damage.
Not for me. While I feel this article describes how people interact with me at work, I still manage to maintain as good of a work life balance as I can when I still am required to work 40 hours. I do know people that are like that, though, and either work way too many hours or keep going back to school for years and years and years for degrees they don't need (while still working full time) because they just don't know how to not work.
I don’t know. This feels a little bit like bait because most people think they are more competent than they really are.
I'm convinced I'm a complete imposter. The only contrary evidence I have is the number of people who come to me for answers, the relative complexity of the tasks I'm assigned or take on, the successful completions, and the praise I get from customers and peers. At some point, you have to shrug and admit that you're wrong about how competent you are.
I'm not sure I'm willing to grant "most people think they are more competent than they really are." In my experience, incompetent people correctly presume that if they try to do things honestly, they will fuck it up. You need to have some level of self-awareness, as an incompetent person, to not get yourself fired.
I have met a lot of highly competent people who had been trained to espouse "most people think they are more competent than they really are" to keep them from getting the idea that they should take themselves seriously. This was also me during the worst years of my career, limply insisting that anyone could do what I did.
It's amazing the number of competent people I've met who've been gaslit into believing they're nothing special and should just shut up, or tolerate mediocre pay, or menial tasks, or were waved off leadership roles. Hence the above snarky reply.
In fact, I'll go ahead and throw the hand-grenade and say "women especially". Because I'm an angry feminist who's seen too many capable female-gendered folks steered into burning up their competence doing documentation, invisible glue or database work, or "non-technical" roles like telecom, project management, or business analysis because they were never allowed to gain confidence when doing anything else.
I'd be one of those legions if my spouse hadn't been cheerleading with mutterings of "If only you had the confidence of a mediocre white man..." after he'd bring me problems to solve from his work. And yes, I have sometimes worked too hard because I had a point to prove.
In addition to the corporate gaslighting, I think certain backgrounds lend themselves to a predisposition towards self-dismissal.
Having gotten into software development with zero formal training and a lot less practical experience than many come into the profession having under their belts, it took the better part of a decade just to dispel imposter syndrome. Even now I consider myself mediocre despite repeatedly having been told otherwise.
It’s a lot easier to lose sight of one’s own progression when you start out feeling like all of your colleagues are untouchable titans in comparison.
Oh, I know this one - I've had an unconventional career path, too, and stumbled into tech roles.
But I've also had opportunity to discover that in many ways, the breadth of experience filled in important gaps that a purely technical education would have left untouched. As others have mentioned, I wouldn't call myself "expert" in anything in particular, but it turns out that even mediocre understanding across multiple knowledge domains can achieve results that pure specialists can't match.
THIS. Like, it's specifically women who are made to feel the need to clarify that anyone could do what they do, it's not special, they're not gifted (just hardworking) -- you get it. We don't need special humility training -- literally the exact opposite would be better.
(Editing to add a relevant Mekka Okereke blogpost.)
Oh, that article has great advice, thank you! I think I fumbled my way towards a similar understanding over the years, but mainly I just did the work in a very visible role and I got a reputation for not fucking up or fucking over anyone else to do it.
I've looked at contracting and consulting, and it's a rough world if you aren't temperamentally inclined to sell yourself relentlessly.
If your partner just wants to do the work in front of her, it may be that she's not interested in that self-promotion aspect, not just a matter of confidence in her skills.
I think a key part of this correlation with loneliness is the age group -- 50 to 80. I'm younger than that and I appreciate being the load bearing one because that's job security. Most messages I get are folks going "hey can you help me" with few to none "did you check out the new star trek," I prefer it that way and don't find myself lonely.
This probably in part stems from my previous positions, for instance in construction I'd been told I was getting the mark of the beast for getting vaccinated. And private grad school where I was the only one of two from public university versus the rest of the department that came from private universities and better off families, bitter that they were in my home state and disparaging both my state and background to my face.
But I also think younger generations in general have stronger work life balance and find more connections elsewhere. The idea of the Michael Scott boss viewing the office as his family worked in part because folks knew of someone like that.
It's common for competent, heavily work-loaded people to get to the end of their careers and have no f-ing clue what to do with themselves once they're no longer working. Everything they've used to derive meaning on a daily basis is gone, the superficial work relationships have no continuity, and they've often backburnered family to the point of abstraction or divorce.
In my workaholic days, I saw where this was going and eventually quit (with some nudging from a fed-up spouse). I spent a year and a half recuperating, making friends with a bunch of older folks at the local YMCA pool, working at a winery (and getting locked down for COVID-19, though that wasn't part of any plan). I'm pretty rigorous these days about capping my work week at 45 hours, and getting social time in at least once a week. But work still isn't socially rewarding, though I have sustained a friendship with someone I met at work who was laid off.
I'd like to introduce the notion that meritocracy harms everyone (as outlined in this Atlantic article) and that those who are competent and rise to the occassion rarely benefit from their extra effort.
The reward is just that you get to put in more effort.
Personally, I don't see myself in OP's article. I made the choice years ago that work is a means to an end, and while that leaves me at the senior end of mid-level work, it also leaves me happy. 35 hours a week, nearly six figures (Canadian, so it's not a crazy amount) and in an older neighborhood where cycling to work is possible.
I'm not gloating and I know that this isn't a choice that everyone would or could make, but like the article I introduced suggests, the spot at the top of the ladder isn't golden.
My advice is to find a rung that's comfortable, stay there, and be thankful that having spare time to enjoy life is a good exchange for the odd existential crisis that you're not reaching your full potential.
The stability is nice. I won't lie, the motivation to go above and beyond isn't intrinsic to the job and I miss that from other workplaces, but I like what I do nonetheless. I push the envelope of efficiency and innovation where I can, of course, but having the option to put that extra energy into work or personal projects at home is unmatched.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
It seems like a workplace has to be pretty dysfunctional for things like promotions and raises to be entirely independent of effort? Sure, there are places like that, but it seems pretty cynical.
Na, it's just called the public sector. People get paid decently for doing a good job, but the workday ends after 7 hours and your time away from work is respected. Call it cynical, I'd call it a different way of doing business.
I wouldn't say that's "independent" of effort, it's just setting a floor and a ceiling for what's expected of each worker.
I suppose that in my ideal picture of the world, everyone has room to achieve their version of excellence, and they know that they have been given the opportunity and they value that opportunity, and then they actually do it. I can't imagine that for most people, excellence involves working over forty hours a week. There's way too much in life to spend so much of that time being degraded!
That's where I was aiming after the abusive job, and yet the responsibility load is creeping up again. Some of that is by choice because I have a low boredom tolerance, more curiosity than a litter of kittens, and crunchy problems are so tasty. Much of it is not chosen because I have support responsibilities for others and few options if I lose this job, given some labor market disadvantages (remote location, age, etc.).
I guess I should clarify that for me too, the responsibility load is always there. What's different is that if there's only so much capacity to get the job done, it's understood that employees won't shoulder the load just because management deems it worthy. If people are expected to work over and above their hours, it's expected that the employer pay more for the request.
Uhm... I guess I am one of them. 90% of the chats I have with my colleagues start with "hey, how are u? By the way there is this problem I know you can easily solve. Could you please help?" Said in one single breath.
On one side I kind of appreciate being helpful but on the other I dread the moment they won't call me anymore considering I know the trigger to connect with me is the problem... And without that they won't even think of me :/
Have you noticed people are coming to you less in the last few years since AI became more prevalent?
You might be assuming that less capable people know what questions to ask, or how to assess the reliability of LLM results. Part of being the competent resource is immediately understanding the context, answering the questions people didn't know how to ask, giving reliable results, providing broader framing of the problems to make them more easily solvable in future, or assuming responsibility for systemic troubleshooting or redesign.
uhm... no, not really but because most of the stuff they need from me is the knowledge on how things work within our organization. And the people to talk.
I can't say they have tried to inquire the AI and have found themselves in a dead end so i was the next in line. But that's a quite depressing thought so... if you don't mind i try to forget about what i just said :)
Ahhhhh. I used to have a colleague like you. She was fantastic. (She retired.)
How did you get them to ask it all in a single breathe? Is it just the nature of your work? Most of the time I get "Hey" and then have to wait 5 minutes for the rest of their message asking for help.
If you’re feeling passive aggressive:
nohello.net
Uhm... nope.
Usually when they need something they just say everything on the chat and wait for me to answer.
The big silence happens after, when i provide them the answer they are looking for. Because they are not watching the chat... they are in a meeting or - i dunno - maybe the are doing something that need them to focus.
Anyway... sometimes i get a feedback that i was useful after days, something like a lonely "thx" written in the chat... and that is all.
The silence really strikes me sometimes.
That's sad. I feel for you.
Competence is definitely alienating. I thought being smart, calm, and capable would make it easier to connect with people, but like the essay says, you'll just end up problem solving for people.
Also, where do competent people hang out? I want to meet more people whose attention spans haven't been destroyed by TikTok lol
I mean, you should try to meet people in contexts where "competence" doesn't really apply. The article is mainly talking about work contexts; ultimately, work should not be your entire social life. Work has inherent hierarchies, and it'll always be difficult to break past that (that's part of why drinking culture is a big part of many countries, since you can break past that with the power of alcohol).
Like if you're hanging out with your mates at the pub, what does "competence" mean? Who can drink the most? There's no goal, you're just hanging out, so inherently there is no need to be the "dependable" one.
It's actually the opposite in many ways. Research has shown that people feel a closer affinity to someone when they do a favor for the other person, rather than the other person doing them a favor. Scammers, spies, and other professional social engineers have long used this to their advantage.
All that is to say, if you are actively trying to build rapport with someone, it's more effective to ask them for help for something they can do than to help them.
Let me clarify: It is easy for me to meet people where they are at. It is not so easy for others to meet me where I am.
I don't need help with people liking me. I don't need help meeting random strangers. It IS harder for me to meet people that I consider peers and I find that alienating. I know the article was about his job, but this is a topic that hit home for me, and generic advice doesn't work here
The answer to that question would be: here. You're welcome. 😏
I wish I knew the answer to this question! (I think
patience_limitedmight be right that this is a good spot, but I'm really not here often enough to know.) I kind of have just collected people I trust and can work with as I've met them online. Something that made a big difference: I used to get a lot of socially awkward feelings when I liked someone and then re-contacted them in a second place -- now that mostly doesn't stress me out, so I can sometimes hold onto those relationships for longer.Also, it's helpful to take an interest in the parts of themselves people bring to work with them that aren't their jobs. One person (who's spectacularly competent, so much so that everyone is certain she'll be running the place in a few years) loves her horse, another (also hyper-competent) is delighted to talk about 3-D printing, a peer is a spectacularly good photographer, a couple of people are in bands, I share an interest in spicy food with my boss's boss, kids are always a topic, and so on. I'd be happy to stay in touch with most of them even if I wasn't working there.
I'm not convinced by this. First of all, it seems to presuppose that people do all or most of their socialising at work, which is not the case in my personal experience. Even if all my conversation at work was people just looking for something from me, the second I log off I can be on WhatsApp with my actual friends who have no idea I'm good for anything.
This is an insane sentence to me. Enjoy being in a meeting?
More importantly, for all we know it's getting cause and effect backwards. What if people throw themselves into their work because they don't have social outlets or the skills to initiate contact?
It's also an element of, this is what happens when you don't put any explicit effort in socialization at work. By default, no one is going to talk to you. That's just how it is.
In a work-context, if you're not actively trying to foster relationships, of course the only reason people talk to you is to ask you to do things. You're at work.
It's absolutely possible to make real friends at work, but you can't just exist. You'd need to connect with a coworker, talk about things other than work, and continue building that relationship. The key point when you actually have a friend is when you can meet up with someone after work, and have an entire conversation where you never mention work. At that point, it's a friend, and not just someone you get along with at work.
And it's also OK to never do that, it's still valuable to have "people you get along with at work" since you have to be with them for ~8ish hours a day anyway. But you can't expect people to form deeper relationships for no reason.
Okay, I'll be the first to admit I'm an odd duck, but I find some meetings enjoyable. I learn about how people's tasks relate to one another, get an overview of the bigger picture and any obstacles, I can observe the personalities and motivations involved, it helps others understand what use I can be in achieving their goals, and the discussion can aid in establishing accountability.
A meeting is a social occasion - I wouldn't count on it for forming friendships, but it does work to establish baseline levels of trust.
I felt this as I just went through it. This article was the reason I joined Tildes.
When you are the team air support, you don’t have any air support you can call in. Even the vendor support often runs away during critical moments. But everyone is leaning on you when in trouble. It definitely feels lonely, even for introverts who prefer their alone time. Who is taking care of the caretaker ?
I had someone check up on me and said, “I just wanted to see how you were doing.” Man, I really felt that and really appreciated it.
The whole thing felt like an existential crisis and a mourning.
I know the study was on those 50-80, but I’d say it can be just as lonely for bright eyed 20 year olds who are trying to find themselves or their Shining City. If they are in a new city with no pre-built network support, it can be even more lonely than someone with an established structure.
I think it would make a great follow up study for the author to focus on the lonely competence angle across age groups.
Overall I’m thankful though for the opportunity the role has given me. But I’d love to just have some peace of mind and unplug. Time for a vacation lol
Welcome to Tildes, and I'm so happy you found something that resonated for you! Even if it's a discomfiting realization...
Honestly, when I first read the article the age stratification slipped right by me. I've gone through that "how did I wind up with everyone looking at me for answers" multiple times in multiple different roles starting around high school age, and it's been terrifying and isolating every single time. The visibility, responsibility, and pressure (both external and internal) to never make mistakes stretches across professions for high performers, but doesn't always trigger empathetic responses from those around them. It's like you're in a different category of humanity - if you look like you know what you're doing, that competence must magically appear without the stresses experienced by people who aren't so capable.
One of the things about the age range is that responsibility piles up as you get more experienced. I did a stint in a middle management role, and that's even worse - suddenly you're alienated by hierarchy from the former peers you're trying to guide, and a potential threat to the others in leadership around and above you. At the same time, you're pretending to always know what to do next, maintaining a facade of imperturbability, and scrambling madly to anticipate the next curveball the universe will throw at careful planning. It's an organizational problem - there's no incentive for anyone to provide basic human empathy to "bosses", either. [The organizational psychology and business literature is no help here. Leadership is a murky thing that might as well be variations on apes looking for the biggest and strongest one to kowtow to in the interests of maintaining minimum brain energy expenditure.]