Very good video. Notes as I watched: God, community and truth. Post modernism killed them all. Freedom can also be chaos. We're just a bunch of lonely beans. Chinese youth: Lie flat. Let it rot....
Very good video. Notes as I watched:
God, community and truth. Post modernism killed them all.
Freedom can also be chaos.
We're just a bunch of lonely beans.
Chinese youth: Lie flat. Let it rot.
Our perceptions of reality is warped by what we see online. The very best and the very worst.
Gen Z is louder but has less power.
We are subject to a constant barrage of problems beyond our control - this causes learned helplessness.
Some things are in our control, some things are not. So worrying about it causes unnecessary suffering.
Touch grass.
It was a good video. But I want to circle back to what he said at the beginning. About how post modernism has killed God, community and truth and left particularly Gen Z adrift in their "freedom". Which has now become chaos.
This in particular why I am a conservative and why I still believe in God (creator), community and truth. Because without it, our lives lack structure, lack meaning, lack purpose. Its no different than raising a child with no rules and saying that there are no restrictions, there is no authority they must follow, there is no particular truth, everything is equally relevant, important and truthful; Which means that nothing is relevant, important and truthful.
I've said this for years but I definitely think our world operated better when we were more cohesive, when there was a stronger social contract. Not everyone, but most people held similar standards, largely because of a common religious background that undergirded our social interactions and our law - and those similar beliefs meant that as a culture we were the village that was raising the child. Together.
Not anymore. Now "what's good for you isn't good for me" is common, and if I were to take reddit's opinion at face value "all conservatives are idiots and all religion is bullshit." To which I'd have to say 'how's that working out for you?' According to the video, and I think its accurate, its leading to an entire generation with 4 times the level of suicidal ideation and a ton of self harm. And hopelessness. And no one survives for long in a hopeless state.
Buddhism might be an answer. Giving up desire. Focusing on one battle. So might other belief systems. But I honestly believe that giving up on ALL belief systems and thinking they are all bullshit is one of the reasons Gen Z is heading down a very dark slope to a miserable existence if we dont turn things around.
He's right about getting back into nature. Getting off our phones and touching grass. Add in reconnecting to a belief system and joining a belief community and the chaos will subside, and life will gain more meaning and purpose. If it gives my thoughts any weight, I say that as someone who has worked with a lot of kids over the years, from street kids at our outreach center, to children I taught, to my own children and grandchildren and even to the dozens of kids we host every summer.
They say postmodernism killed god, but I would argue that science did that. It's essentially impossible to reconcile most prevalent religious beliefs with real world evidence regarding things like...
They say postmodernism killed god, but I would argue that science did that. It's essentially impossible to reconcile most prevalent religious beliefs with real world evidence regarding things like the origin of the earth and the history of life on it.
I would also argue that this is not a bad thing. We no longer need fairy tales and myths to explain the world around us. I struggle to see how that is anything but a win.
Both modernism and postmodernism was largely fueled by scientific and technological advances, so you're not exactly wrong about that. The term "postmodernism" gets thrown around a lot but many...
They say postmodernism killed god, but I would argue that science did that.
Both modernism and postmodernism was largely fueled by scientific and technological advances, so you're not exactly wrong about that.
The term "postmodernism" gets thrown around a lot but many people don't understand what it means. I don't blame anyone who doesn't understand it though, because it's such a large topic that requires understanding of what modernism is, and nobody seems to know what that is either.
I think religion is not inherently a bad thing. Just because something isn't rooted in rationality doesn't mean it holds no value. I'm not even religious, but I can see how religion can work for...
I think religion is not inherently a bad thing. Just because something isn't rooted in rationality doesn't mean it holds no value. I'm not even religious, but I can see how religion can work for some people and can be a positive thing. Science, religion, and secular social groups can all exist together.
My problem is that people take those irrational beliefs and impose them on others. All the anti-LGBT hysteria going on right now is fueled entirely by people who think some bearded dude living in...
My problem is that people take those irrational beliefs and impose them on others. All the anti-LGBT hysteria going on right now is fueled entirely by people who think some bearded dude living in the clouds doesn't like trans people. And because their core world view is fundamentally irrational, there isn't really any way to reason with them. They're already programmed to reject basic scientific facts like the age of the Earth.
There are positive aspects to personal spirituality, but I think on the whole they are outweighed by the massive negatives that come with organized religion.
I have slightly higher faith in humanity than you. I don't think that religion is the only thing pushing anti-queer sentiment. I think it's plain old fashioned irrational hate. They're just using...
I have slightly higher faith in humanity than you. I don't think that religion is the only thing pushing anti-queer sentiment.
I think it's plain old fashioned irrational hate. They're just using religion as a justification for it. There's plenty of religions that are perfectly fine with queer folk.
Yeah, I think people are against trans people because they are different, not because religion tells them to oppose them. Religious people who are anti-trans can always find some quote that fits...
Yeah, I think people are against trans people because they are different, not because religion tells them to oppose them. Religious people who are anti-trans can always find some quote that fits their world view in the litany of religious texts humans have written.
There may be a higher rate of conservatism in religion, but I'm not sure whether it's religion that makes them conservative or whether conservatism makes them religious.
You base that on...? Ironically I just saw a new gov survey for Canada that polled gender diversity. Apparently 0.13% of Canadians identify as trans. The same agency reports that 68% of Canadians...
And because their core world view is fundamentally irrational
You base that on...?
Ironically I just saw a new gov survey for Canada that polled gender diversity. Apparently 0.13% of Canadians identify as trans. The same agency reports that 68% of Canadians have a religious affiliation and 54% of them consider it very important. Not that those two groups are mutually exclusive, but generally the Venn diagram doesn't have much cross over in the middle.
So in a room of 1000 Canadians, does it make sense for the one person who is transgender to say to the other 540 to 680 people in the room "you guys know your beliefs are fundamentally irrational, right?"
My premise is that saying that a substantial majority of Canadians hold to a religious belief or at least affiliation and to say they are irrational is an opinion based on an opinion. Which is...
My premise is that saying that a substantial majority of Canadians hold to a religious belief or at least affiliation and to say they are irrational is an opinion based on an opinion. Which is fine, as long as we acknowledge that its just that. This wasnt an debate about rights or whether a person should exist but given the balance of probabilities, its likely that 68% of people are not irrational and hold those beliefs for a reason. To propose that the majority of people are irrational except for me and my cohort is disrespectful at best, haughty at worst.
I'll actually take you one further than 68% of people being irrational. All people are irrational, 100%. Maybe not irrational about 100% of things, but absolutely 100% are irrational about some...
I'll actually take you one further than 68% of people being irrational. All people are irrational, 100%. Maybe not irrational about 100% of things, but absolutely 100% are irrational about some things.
You're weirdly framing this as an argument between trans people and people with a religious affiliation and then using an appeal to the majority to justify it. First, way, way more people than...
You're weirdly framing this as an argument between trans people and people with a religious affiliation and then using an appeal to the majority to justify it.
First, way, way more people than just trans people themselves think that it's perfectly ok to be trans, and that they should have the same rights as someone born in their gender.
Secondly, not every religious person thinks that trans people shouldn't have equal rights. In fact, it's a really strange belief to even try to justify with religion, given the fact that none the holy texts of any major religion has any restrictions whatsoever about being trans.
So more realistically, your question would be more like "in a room full of 1000 Canadians, does it make sense for 900 of them who believe that trans people should have equal rights to tell the other 100 that their beliefs are irrational?"
Even then, the premise is still an appeal to the majority. Those 100 people are wrong, not because they're a minority, but because their beliefs truly are irrational.
Someone's gender identity is their own decision, does not directly impact anyone but them, and is frankly none of anyones business except their own. They deserve equal rights, including the right to express their gender, entirely and solely because they are human beings, just like anyone else.
Would you say your issue is with the irrationality or with imposing them on others? Most people don't think of themselves or their beliefs as irrational. But if you really get into epistemology...
Would you say your issue is with the irrationality or with imposing them on others?
Most people don't think of themselves or their beliefs as irrational. But if you really get into epistemology you could convince yourself that there isn't really a sound logical basis for believing much of anything with real confidence.
So personally I tend to try and avoid judging others as being rational/irrational as it feels like it's too much of a subjective call to decide where someone else has stopped conforming to rationality.
Imposing the irrational beliefs on others is where I start taking issue. What someone believes in isn't really anyone's concern until those beliefs start affecting other people.
Imposing the irrational beliefs on others is where I start taking issue. What someone believes in isn't really anyone's concern until those beliefs start affecting other people.
I think it’s possible that the two are connected in some way (e.g. evolution being one of the methods employed by a creator), which has led me more towards agnosticism rather than atheism, because...
I think it’s possible that the two are connected in some way (e.g. evolution being one of the methods employed by a creator), which has led me more towards agnosticism rather than atheism, because I think it’s unlikely that humanity will be able to prove one way or the other within my lifetime. There may be a god, but unless that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt it doesn’t make sense to bind myself to the ruleset and practices of any particular religion.
The problem I have is that a past where people (of any population size larger than a small locale) all had similar values is an artificial one. The world has always been more diverse than that....
The problem I have is that a past where people (of any population size larger than a small locale) all had similar values is an artificial one. The world has always been more diverse than that. The common religious backgrounds were artificially and violently imposed on enslaved and indigenous peoples. And the majority of citizens didn't have an equal voice until women's suffrage passed in that locale. It's a nice myth, but it has never struck me as a reality.
I find it kind of ironic. When I was very young, I was chided about interacting with people over the internet because it was clear that it doesn't have the depth of communication that in-person or...
I find it kind of ironic. When I was very young, I was chided about interacting with people over the internet because it was clear that it doesn't have the depth of communication that in-person or phone conversations do. But these days most of the people who told me that who are still alive are probably all just as terminally online as the rest of us. The few people who are saying to disconnect that I know are all my age or younger.
But I don't agree with you about a few of your ideas. Most importantly, I don't think that gen z or anyone else really believes in rejecting every belief system. The only way to avoid thinking about one's own personal belief system, I think, is to be brought up in a monoculture where there's no alternative. To think about why other people make the decisions they do is a natural part of human curiosity. People who are being brought up today are not being brought up without exposure to a multitude of religious thought and schools of philosophy.
I think the primary problem is that people today are still doing the things that are like building a community, but are not doing it in a way that actually builds community. As an example, one could manage to change the mind of every single person in their friend group on Instagram or whatever, but when you look at the people who make it up, each of them have an entirely different friend group with different memberships. Previously, within a community, there would certainly be different groups that make it up, but people would belong to multiple of them. Social media generally tends to homogenize social structures that turned out to be more important than we realized.
Come to think about it, it's probably important to realize that Tildes does this too. We're not still this tiny site; I'm seeing more and more unfamilliar usernames and that goes far beyond the usual scope of my infamously terrible memory.
Probably better to be the bigger person on that one. In my opinion if religion makes someone a better person then it’s a good thing. But I’ve also done pretty well for myself without much religion...
To which I'd have to say 'how's that working out for you?'
Probably better to be the bigger person on that one.
In my opinion if religion makes someone a better person then it’s a good thing. But I’ve also done pretty well for myself without much religion (although I was raised with Quakerism and enjoyed it).
I don't agree that religion is the only way to foster community and give structure to people's lives, but it definitely can bring that for some people. I think secularism is less of an issue than...
I don't agree that religion is the only way to foster community and give structure to people's lives, but it definitely can bring that for some people.
I think secularism is less of an issue than moving the bulk of our social interactions onto the internet. Where are the public places that people gather? Where are the clubs centered around common interests or missions?
We have given those places up and we are suffering because of it. Religion has many of those in person events and a common mission, but that's not to say secular organizations never had similar features.
The modern, Western conception of religion has the idea exactly backwards. People talk as if a religion is something that falls out of the sky, fully formed, and exists outside of historical and...
The modern, Western conception of religion has the idea exactly backwards. People talk as if a religion is something that falls out of the sky, fully formed, and exists outside of historical and sociological forces. This is simply not true.
In fact, what is a religion emerges out of a community’s norms and customs and rituals that acquire importance and weight over time and repetition. The religion is the way of life and structure that people live by. Some religions may stress faith claims on certain historical assertions, like whether Jesus or Mohammad existed and what the nature of their existence was. But the actual religion, which is the practices and customs and value systems that stem from that, is something people create no continuously update.
Christian leaders had to create a conceptual framework where there is a “religion” sphere that is separate from all the other aspects of life specifically so that Christian priests could do their thing without the Roman Emperor telling them what to do. But that’s not inherent to what people are actually doing or how they live.
This is because of Western religious dogma. If you look at the (secular) history of any Christian denomination that started in the United States, they all basically started the same way; a bunch...
This is because of Western religious dogma. If you look at the (secular) history of any Christian denomination that started in the United States, they all basically started the same way; a bunch of people out in the world had a church and that church structured their teaching around their way of life, and that eventually grew into a distinct religion in and of itself. But nearly all of them will tell you that their religion was given to them in some way. In the real world, the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. But in LDS cannon, Joseph Smith was merely the translator of some metal plates given to him by a divine messenger. Almost every christian denomination says that their faith is imposed on them by their creator.
Bit of a tangent here, but I was talking with a friend who lives in Florida about homeless people (I live in California where there are a lot and they are out on the streets). He said that...
Bit of a tangent here, but I was talking with a friend who lives in Florida about homeless people (I live in California where there are a lot and they are out on the streets). He said that Floridians just don't stand for the homeless and that it's their values that keep people off of the streets. I'm pretty sure it's down to much bigger matters like climate and the cost of living. But it's really easy to look around and say it's because of literally anything else. Until you're in the position to order cops to behave differently you won't find out you're wrong.
In major US cities you still have groups of people with common interests. I found a really excellent 3rd place about 18 months ago and go nearly every single week. It's a board game group that I...
In major US cities you still have groups of people with common interests. I found a really excellent 3rd place about 18 months ago and go nearly every single week. It's a board game group that I sometimes co-opt as a location to bake people pizzas at (there's actually a kitchen adjacent to the common area we gather in). Totally free!
My view is that need for something akin to religion varies greatly between individuals. My personal need for it is low because I’m pretty self-driven and have been since childhood, which means I...
My view is that need for something akin to religion varies greatly between individuals.
My personal need for it is low because I’m pretty self-driven and have been since childhood, which means I don’t have too much trouble coming up with goals to structure my life around and have the flexibility to change those goals as needed. This naturally pushes one towards other driven people, helping fill social needs, even if I’ve not taken advantage of that aspect as well as I would’ve liked to. Self-drive is not an inherent trait, though, so I can understand why others might need to rely on other things.
It's hard to take seriously a video that doesn't address a large driver of a lot of these problems in capitalism. Freedom and post-modernism hasn't killed community. There's more opportunity now...
It's hard to take seriously a video that doesn't address a large driver of a lot of these problems in capitalism. Freedom and post-modernism hasn't killed community. There's more opportunity now for community than ever, and (thankfully) not just the dominant one your culture happens to have. The Internet connects people in a way never possible in human history. But we've created a system that's focused on profit instead of things people actual need. People have to work too much, the information we're able to access, the tools we use to live our lives, the jobs available, the education we receive, the things we can buy, the places we can live, every bit of it is tailored to increase the profits of corporations. It's hardly a wonder that people are unhappy and that it's ironically harder than ever to form communities: communities are dangerous to corporations.
Does it? If I can talk to them when I need a friend in a crisis? If I can ask them for advice on a home improvement project? If I can share this cool new book I read? I can pay someone for a ride...
Does it? If I can talk to them when I need a friend in a crisis? If I can ask them for advice on a home improvement project? If I can share this cool new book I read? I can pay someone for a ride to the airport. My community talked me through my partner's long hospitalizations, sent memes when I was overwhelmed with caretaking, and talks about their kids (and my cats) regardless of where they're around my home or not.
My community sent us food when my wife was sick. That’s quite a bit more meaningful than memes. The idea of sending money to contract people to do what a community used to is part of the issue....
My community sent us food when my wife was sick. That’s quite a bit more meaningful than memes. The idea of sending money to contract people to do what a community used to is part of the issue. Turning everyone into a transaction erodes actual social connection. Giving someone a lift doesn’t just meet the immediate need, sharing the space with them is what creates the connection over time. The fact that you don’t really choose, moment to moment, whether to engage with a person is important. That’s how you actually learn to share space with other people.
I hate to tell you but my online D&D group bought me gift cards for food (which was better than physical food for me because I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to the hospital a day) and so...
I hate to tell you but my online D&D group bought me gift cards for food (which was better than physical food for me because I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to the hospital a day) and so did my IRL coworkers. Because physical food wasn't something I could eat in the car, nor did I want to even heat anything up.
"Everything" isn't transactional. My Lyft might be, but all those other things weren't. And yes, I have people I've gotten a ride to pick up my car at the mechanic with. But my point is that my online communities are community. Sitting in a physical space isn't always comforting. The online support I've gotten from caregiver groups, existing online friends and "real life" but long distance friends has been indispensable. The emotional support means more than food (yeah it's symbolic and still), or a car ride. And that does include memes. I needed to laugh because I'd cried all day. It was exactly what I wanted.
I am not saying all online connections are the same, neither are all IRL connections, but I disagree that they're inherently not community. Your experiences may be different but it doesn't make sense to be sure that others' experiences aren't what they claim.
I think it's safe to say that the current social environment is what had allowed these problems of capitalism that are causing distress. They pointed out that the gen z voice is louder, but less...
I think it's safe to say that the current social environment is what had allowed these problems of capitalism that are causing distress. They pointed out that the gen z voice is louder, but less effective. People are less powerful collectively than before. Legislation and governmental rules are now commonly being enacted against popular will. Here in the US we have seen our democratically elected government flounder about while the the appointed supreme court has managed to raze centuries of legal precedent and change the laws dramatically.
I do think that we need to do more to fix the economic problems that our age are suffering from, but right now the only thing that will get that going is a cross-industry general strike, and that's not likely to happen any time soon. It's probably more realistic to expect a revolution.
This is fundamentally just a bad reason to believe in anything. We should believe that which is evidently true, and nothing else, consequences be damned.
This in particular why I am a conservative and why I still believe in God (creator), community and truth. Because without it, our lives lack structure, lack meaning, lack purpose. Its no different than raising a child with no rules and saying that there are no restrictions, there is no authority they must follow, there is no particular truth, everything is equally relevant, important and truthful; Which means that nothing is relevant, important and truthful.
This is fundamentally just a bad reason to believe in anything. We should believe that which is evidently true, and nothing else, consequences be damned.
As a counterpoint, I would suggest watching this video from Some More News: https://youtu.be/5aFQY6-Mxcw?si=0hjZ4SuFZfdLtPBj I agree with his perspective that it's less likely to be smart phones...
I agree with his perspective that it's less likely to be smart phones that are the issue and more likely that social media sites and the enshitification of the internet that is causing these issues.
I clicked on this video, not expecting much, but ended up being very impressed at the thoughtfulness and thoroughness of the content. I also looked for the full skit that was sampled (and...
I clicked on this video, not expecting much, but ended up being very impressed at the thoughtfulness and thoroughness of the content.
I also looked for the full skit that was sampled (and censored) in the video, which is here: https://youtu.be/Fav-SS0L78Q
Watch what Stephen Fry has to say about religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOGMM9IaT0 Or the full debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4
The title is a bit clickbaity, but I do think the content is worth watching, otherwise I would not have posted it here. If you don’t have the time or interest to watch the whole 20 minutes,...
The title is a bit clickbaity, but I do think the content is worth watching, otherwise I would not have posted it here.
If you don’t have the time or interest to watch the whole 20 minutes, commenting on the title alone frankly has little discussion value.
I think it's on topic and worth discussing how often we're seeing this narrative. Kind of reminds me of how suicides are contagious. It's not that those who committed suicide weren't struggling,...
I think it's on topic and worth discussing how often we're seeing this narrative. Kind of reminds me of how suicides are contagious. It's not that those who committed suicide weren't struggling, but maybe it put them over a threshold to have the thought of suicide planted in their head. In the same way I wonder if the thought of hopelessness isn't being planted in people's heads just because it's mentioned so often. Of course there are problems in the world, but if people are being told that many people are giving up on life, it kind of normalizes it. This is in line with the video's point about how social media is affecting us.
Yeah, I've noticed the same thing myself in so many situations. I went through a period where because of personal circumstances, I was quite depressed for a really long time. I was somewhat...
Yeah, I've noticed the same thing myself in so many situations. I went through a period where because of personal circumstances, I was quite depressed for a really long time. I was somewhat suicidal, which is unlike me, and I didn't know how to deal with it. One of the things I tried was hanging out in subreddits for depression. I thought hearing the experiences of people who were going through what I was going through might help.
It didn't. At all. It made it far worse. It took my view of the world as a hopeless, hostile, miserable place and validated it.
I've since put those days long behind me and am doing much better now, but I notice the same phenomenon all over the place. People who like to complain a lot end up making themselves miserable in order to have something to complain about. Teams at work with one person who is constantly cynical and griping soon poison the whole team.
I've come to view the practice of complaining as somewhat poisonous, not cathartic. I don't think the wider population on the Internet largely see it that way though.
In many ways this seems to be a generational divide. My parents generation are much more likely to see it the way I mostly do nowadays; life sucks a lot of the time. It does for everyone. There's no need to tell everyone about it, they already know. Keep your head down, get your work done, and grab joy where you can.
Many people my age or younger tend to see things differently. They see complaining as a righteous expression of anger that will lead to meaningful change by the powers that be, or at least some sort of catharsis. That idea is very, very prevalent on social media. The /r/antiwork crowd, discussions about working from home on tiktok, virtually any discussion about the struggles of life are just full of people screaming into the void, and I think it's rarely ever helpful for the people hearing it, but especially for the people shouting it.
On the topic of overall mental wellbeing (negative self-talk is discussed), this recent podcast from Peter Attia with Paul Conti is excellent: https://peterattiamd.com/paulconti4/
On the topic of overall mental wellbeing (negative self-talk is discussed), this recent podcast from Peter Attia with Paul Conti is excellent: https://peterattiamd.com/paulconti4/
I agree entirely. I think that it is the perception of reality that is causing people to despair or give up, and this perception is more malleable than reality. There is a part near the end where...
I agree entirely. I think that it is the perception of reality that is causing people to despair or give up, and this perception is more malleable than reality.
There is a part near the end where the speaker says "Gen Z is louder, but has less power", and I think he is missing this distinction. Gen Z has the same amount of power as prior generations of youth, which is to say none, but their perception of that reality and the perceived importance of that lack of power has changed.
Which I think is an important distinction, because in one case, it would maybe indicate that videos like this one might be part of the problem, and in the other case it doesn't really matter in the big picture.
When I clicked on the video, I was expecting it to rehash of grievances and reinforce the learned helplessness and hopelessness that you refer to. I was pleasantly surprised when it actually gave...
When I clicked on the video, I was expecting it to rehash of grievances and reinforce the learned helplessness and hopelessness that you refer to. I was pleasantly surprised when it actually gave a very informative deconstruction of the phenomena and touched on the ways to counter it.
So while “the narrative problem” is certainly worth discussing, this video does not reinforce that narrative in a negative way.
Very good video. Notes as I watched:
It was a good video. But I want to circle back to what he said at the beginning. About how post modernism has killed God, community and truth and left particularly Gen Z adrift in their "freedom". Which has now become chaos.
This in particular why I am a conservative and why I still believe in God (creator), community and truth. Because without it, our lives lack structure, lack meaning, lack purpose. Its no different than raising a child with no rules and saying that there are no restrictions, there is no authority they must follow, there is no particular truth, everything is equally relevant, important and truthful; Which means that nothing is relevant, important and truthful.
I've said this for years but I definitely think our world operated better when we were more cohesive, when there was a stronger social contract. Not everyone, but most people held similar standards, largely because of a common religious background that undergirded our social interactions and our law - and those similar beliefs meant that as a culture we were the village that was raising the child. Together.
Not anymore. Now "what's good for you isn't good for me" is common, and if I were to take reddit's opinion at face value "all conservatives are idiots and all religion is bullshit." To which I'd have to say 'how's that working out for you?' According to the video, and I think its accurate, its leading to an entire generation with 4 times the level of suicidal ideation and a ton of self harm. And hopelessness. And no one survives for long in a hopeless state.
Buddhism might be an answer. Giving up desire. Focusing on one battle. So might other belief systems. But I honestly believe that giving up on ALL belief systems and thinking they are all bullshit is one of the reasons Gen Z is heading down a very dark slope to a miserable existence if we dont turn things around.
He's right about getting back into nature. Getting off our phones and touching grass. Add in reconnecting to a belief system and joining a belief community and the chaos will subside, and life will gain more meaning and purpose. If it gives my thoughts any weight, I say that as someone who has worked with a lot of kids over the years, from street kids at our outreach center, to children I taught, to my own children and grandchildren and even to the dozens of kids we host every summer.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
They say postmodernism killed god, but I would argue that science did that. It's essentially impossible to reconcile most prevalent religious beliefs with real world evidence regarding things like the origin of the earth and the history of life on it.
I would also argue that this is not a bad thing. We no longer need fairy tales and myths to explain the world around us. I struggle to see how that is anything but a win.
Both modernism and postmodernism was largely fueled by scientific and technological advances, so you're not exactly wrong about that.
The term "postmodernism" gets thrown around a lot but many people don't understand what it means. I don't blame anyone who doesn't understand it though, because it's such a large topic that requires understanding of what modernism is, and nobody seems to know what that is either.
I think religion is not inherently a bad thing. Just because something isn't rooted in rationality doesn't mean it holds no value. I'm not even religious, but I can see how religion can work for some people and can be a positive thing. Science, religion, and secular social groups can all exist together.
My problem is that people take those irrational beliefs and impose them on others. All the anti-LGBT hysteria going on right now is fueled entirely by people who think some bearded dude living in the clouds doesn't like trans people. And because their core world view is fundamentally irrational, there isn't really any way to reason with them. They're already programmed to reject basic scientific facts like the age of the Earth.
There are positive aspects to personal spirituality, but I think on the whole they are outweighed by the massive negatives that come with organized religion.
I have slightly higher faith in humanity than you. I don't think that religion is the only thing pushing anti-queer sentiment.
I think it's plain old fashioned irrational hate. They're just using religion as a justification for it. There's plenty of religions that are perfectly fine with queer folk.
Yeah, I think people are against trans people because they are different, not because religion tells them to oppose them. Religious people who are anti-trans can always find some quote that fits their world view in the litany of religious texts humans have written.
There may be a higher rate of conservatism in religion, but I'm not sure whether it's religion that makes them conservative or whether conservatism makes them religious.
You base that on...?
Ironically I just saw a new gov survey for Canada that polled gender diversity. Apparently 0.13% of Canadians identify as trans. The same agency reports that 68% of Canadians have a religious affiliation and 54% of them consider it very important. Not that those two groups are mutually exclusive, but generally the Venn diagram doesn't have much cross over in the middle.
So in a room of 1000 Canadians, does it make sense for the one person who is transgender to say to the other 540 to 680 people in the room "you guys know your beliefs are fundamentally irrational, right?"
Is your premise here that the majority is inherently correct because they're the majority?
My premise is that saying that a substantial majority of Canadians hold to a religious belief or at least affiliation and to say they are irrational is an opinion based on an opinion. Which is fine, as long as we acknowledge that its just that. This wasnt an debate about rights or whether a person should exist but given the balance of probabilities, its likely that 68% of people are not irrational and hold those beliefs for a reason. To propose that the majority of people are irrational except for me and my cohort is disrespectful at best, haughty at worst.
I'll actually take you one further than 68% of people being irrational. All people are irrational, 100%. Maybe not irrational about 100% of things, but absolutely 100% are irrational about some things.
You're weirdly framing this as an argument between trans people and people with a religious affiliation and then using an appeal to the majority to justify it.
First, way, way more people than just trans people themselves think that it's perfectly ok to be trans, and that they should have the same rights as someone born in their gender.
Secondly, not every religious person thinks that trans people shouldn't have equal rights. In fact, it's a really strange belief to even try to justify with religion, given the fact that none the holy texts of any major religion has any restrictions whatsoever about being trans.
So more realistically, your question would be more like "in a room full of 1000 Canadians, does it make sense for 900 of them who believe that trans people should have equal rights to tell the other 100 that their beliefs are irrational?"
Even then, the premise is still an appeal to the majority. Those 100 people are wrong, not because they're a minority, but because their beliefs truly are irrational.
Someone's gender identity is their own decision, does not directly impact anyone but them, and is frankly none of anyones business except their own. They deserve equal rights, including the right to express their gender, entirely and solely because they are human beings, just like anyone else.
Would you say your issue is with the irrationality or with imposing them on others?
Most people don't think of themselves or their beliefs as irrational. But if you really get into epistemology you could convince yourself that there isn't really a sound logical basis for believing much of anything with real confidence.
So personally I tend to try and avoid judging others as being rational/irrational as it feels like it's too much of a subjective call to decide where someone else has stopped conforming to rationality.
Imposing the irrational beliefs on others is where I start taking issue. What someone believes in isn't really anyone's concern until those beliefs start affecting other people.
I think it’s possible that the two are connected in some way (e.g. evolution being one of the methods employed by a creator), which has led me more towards agnosticism rather than atheism, because I think it’s unlikely that humanity will be able to prove one way or the other within my lifetime. There may be a god, but unless that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt it doesn’t make sense to bind myself to the ruleset and practices of any particular religion.
The problem I have is that a past where people (of any population size larger than a small locale) all had similar values is an artificial one. The world has always been more diverse than that. The common religious backgrounds were artificially and violently imposed on enslaved and indigenous peoples. And the majority of citizens didn't have an equal voice until women's suffrage passed in that locale. It's a nice myth, but it has never struck me as a reality.
I find it kind of ironic. When I was very young, I was chided about interacting with people over the internet because it was clear that it doesn't have the depth of communication that in-person or phone conversations do. But these days most of the people who told me that who are still alive are probably all just as terminally online as the rest of us. The few people who are saying to disconnect that I know are all my age or younger.
But I don't agree with you about a few of your ideas. Most importantly, I don't think that gen z or anyone else really believes in rejecting every belief system. The only way to avoid thinking about one's own personal belief system, I think, is to be brought up in a monoculture where there's no alternative. To think about why other people make the decisions they do is a natural part of human curiosity. People who are being brought up today are not being brought up without exposure to a multitude of religious thought and schools of philosophy.
I think the primary problem is that people today are still doing the things that are like building a community, but are not doing it in a way that actually builds community. As an example, one could manage to change the mind of every single person in their friend group on Instagram or whatever, but when you look at the people who make it up, each of them have an entirely different friend group with different memberships. Previously, within a community, there would certainly be different groups that make it up, but people would belong to multiple of them. Social media generally tends to homogenize social structures that turned out to be more important than we realized.
Come to think about it, it's probably important to realize that Tildes does this too. We're not still this tiny site; I'm seeing more and more unfamilliar usernames and that goes far beyond the usual scope of my infamously terrible memory.
Probably better to be the bigger person on that one.
In my opinion if religion makes someone a better person then it’s a good thing. But I’ve also done pretty well for myself without much religion (although I was raised with Quakerism and enjoyed it).
I don't agree that religion is the only way to foster community and give structure to people's lives, but it definitely can bring that for some people.
I think secularism is less of an issue than moving the bulk of our social interactions onto the internet. Where are the public places that people gather? Where are the clubs centered around common interests or missions?
We have given those places up and we are suffering because of it. Religion has many of those in person events and a common mission, but that's not to say secular organizations never had similar features.
The modern, Western conception of religion has the idea exactly backwards. People talk as if a religion is something that falls out of the sky, fully formed, and exists outside of historical and sociological forces. This is simply not true.
In fact, what is a religion emerges out of a community’s norms and customs and rituals that acquire importance and weight over time and repetition. The religion is the way of life and structure that people live by. Some religions may stress faith claims on certain historical assertions, like whether Jesus or Mohammad existed and what the nature of their existence was. But the actual religion, which is the practices and customs and value systems that stem from that, is something people create no continuously update.
Christian leaders had to create a conceptual framework where there is a “religion” sphere that is separate from all the other aspects of life specifically so that Christian priests could do their thing without the Roman Emperor telling them what to do. But that’s not inherent to what people are actually doing or how they live.
This is because of Western religious dogma. If you look at the (secular) history of any Christian denomination that started in the United States, they all basically started the same way; a bunch of people out in the world had a church and that church structured their teaching around their way of life, and that eventually grew into a distinct religion in and of itself. But nearly all of them will tell you that their religion was given to them in some way. In the real world, the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. But in LDS cannon, Joseph Smith was merely the translator of some metal plates given to him by a divine messenger. Almost every christian denomination says that their faith is imposed on them by their creator.
Bit of a tangent here, but I was talking with a friend who lives in Florida about homeless people (I live in California where there are a lot and they are out on the streets). He said that Floridians just don't stand for the homeless and that it's their values that keep people off of the streets. I'm pretty sure it's down to much bigger matters like climate and the cost of living. But it's really easy to look around and say it's because of literally anything else. Until you're in the position to order cops to behave differently you won't find out you're wrong.
In major US cities you still have groups of people with common interests. I found a really excellent 3rd place about 18 months ago and go nearly every single week. It's a board game group that I sometimes co-opt as a location to bake people pizzas at (there's actually a kitchen adjacent to the common area we gather in). Totally free!
My view is that need for something akin to religion varies greatly between individuals.
My personal need for it is low because I’m pretty self-driven and have been since childhood, which means I don’t have too much trouble coming up with goals to structure my life around and have the flexibility to change those goals as needed. This naturally pushes one towards other driven people, helping fill social needs, even if I’ve not taken advantage of that aspect as well as I would’ve liked to. Self-drive is not an inherent trait, though, so I can understand why others might need to rely on other things.
It's hard to take seriously a video that doesn't address a large driver of a lot of these problems in capitalism. Freedom and post-modernism hasn't killed community. There's more opportunity now for community than ever, and (thankfully) not just the dominant one your culture happens to have. The Internet connects people in a way never possible in human history. But we've created a system that's focused on profit instead of things people actual need. People have to work too much, the information we're able to access, the tools we use to live our lives, the jobs available, the education we receive, the things we can buy, the places we can live, every bit of it is tailored to increase the profits of corporations. It's hardly a wonder that people are unhappy and that it's ironically harder than ever to form communities: communities are dangerous to corporations.
You won’t be able to call any of those people to give you a ride to the airport.
Community needs to intersect your real life in meaningful ways.
Does it? If I can talk to them when I need a friend in a crisis? If I can ask them for advice on a home improvement project? If I can share this cool new book I read? I can pay someone for a ride to the airport. My community talked me through my partner's long hospitalizations, sent memes when I was overwhelmed with caretaking, and talks about their kids (and my cats) regardless of where they're around my home or not.
My community sent us food when my wife was sick. That’s quite a bit more meaningful than memes. The idea of sending money to contract people to do what a community used to is part of the issue. Turning everyone into a transaction erodes actual social connection. Giving someone a lift doesn’t just meet the immediate need, sharing the space with them is what creates the connection over time. The fact that you don’t really choose, moment to moment, whether to engage with a person is important. That’s how you actually learn to share space with other people.
I hate to tell you but my online D&D group bought me gift cards for food (which was better than physical food for me because I had to drive 90 minutes back and forth to the hospital a day) and so did my IRL coworkers. Because physical food wasn't something I could eat in the car, nor did I want to even heat anything up.
"Everything" isn't transactional. My Lyft might be, but all those other things weren't. And yes, I have people I've gotten a ride to pick up my car at the mechanic with. But my point is that my online communities are community. Sitting in a physical space isn't always comforting. The online support I've gotten from caregiver groups, existing online friends and "real life" but long distance friends has been indispensable. The emotional support means more than food (yeah it's symbolic and still), or a car ride. And that does include memes. I needed to laugh because I'd cried all day. It was exactly what I wanted.
I am not saying all online connections are the same, neither are all IRL connections, but I disagree that they're inherently not community. Your experiences may be different but it doesn't make sense to be sure that others' experiences aren't what they claim.
I think it's safe to say that the current social environment is what had allowed these problems of capitalism that are causing distress. They pointed out that the gen z voice is louder, but less effective. People are less powerful collectively than before. Legislation and governmental rules are now commonly being enacted against popular will. Here in the US we have seen our democratically elected government flounder about while the the appointed supreme court has managed to raze centuries of legal precedent and change the laws dramatically.
I do think that we need to do more to fix the economic problems that our age are suffering from, but right now the only thing that will get that going is a cross-industry general strike, and that's not likely to happen any time soon. It's probably more realistic to expect a revolution.
This is fundamentally just a bad reason to believe in anything. We should believe that which is evidently true, and nothing else, consequences be damned.
As a counterpoint, I would suggest watching this video from Some More News: https://youtu.be/5aFQY6-Mxcw?si=0hjZ4SuFZfdLtPBj
I agree with his perspective that it's less likely to be smart phones that are the issue and more likely that social media sites and the enshitification of the internet that is causing these issues.
This is a very good recommendation.
It’s very weird that the most down to earth take is coming from a comedian.
I clicked on this video, not expecting much, but ended up being very impressed at the thoughtfulness and thoroughness of the content.
I also looked for the full skit that was sampled (and censored) in the video, which is here: https://youtu.be/Fav-SS0L78Q
Watch what Stephen Fry has to say about religion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOGMM9IaT0
Or the full debate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZRcYaAYWg4
Am I the only one distracted by the irregular usage of hard-coded subtitles in this video?
I dont know if I would say quietly. This has got to be at least the 50th time I'm hearing about it.
The title is a bit clickbaity, but I do think the content is worth watching, otherwise I would not have posted it here.
If you don’t have the time or interest to watch the whole 20 minutes, commenting on the title alone frankly has little discussion value.
I think it's on topic and worth discussing how often we're seeing this narrative. Kind of reminds me of how suicides are contagious. It's not that those who committed suicide weren't struggling, but maybe it put them over a threshold to have the thought of suicide planted in their head. In the same way I wonder if the thought of hopelessness isn't being planted in people's heads just because it's mentioned so often. Of course there are problems in the world, but if people are being told that many people are giving up on life, it kind of normalizes it. This is in line with the video's point about how social media is affecting us.
Yeah, I've noticed the same thing myself in so many situations. I went through a period where because of personal circumstances, I was quite depressed for a really long time. I was somewhat suicidal, which is unlike me, and I didn't know how to deal with it. One of the things I tried was hanging out in subreddits for depression. I thought hearing the experiences of people who were going through what I was going through might help.
It didn't. At all. It made it far worse. It took my view of the world as a hopeless, hostile, miserable place and validated it.
I've since put those days long behind me and am doing much better now, but I notice the same phenomenon all over the place. People who like to complain a lot end up making themselves miserable in order to have something to complain about. Teams at work with one person who is constantly cynical and griping soon poison the whole team.
I've come to view the practice of complaining as somewhat poisonous, not cathartic. I don't think the wider population on the Internet largely see it that way though.
In many ways this seems to be a generational divide. My parents generation are much more likely to see it the way I mostly do nowadays; life sucks a lot of the time. It does for everyone. There's no need to tell everyone about it, they already know. Keep your head down, get your work done, and grab joy where you can.
Many people my age or younger tend to see things differently. They see complaining as a righteous expression of anger that will lead to meaningful change by the powers that be, or at least some sort of catharsis. That idea is very, very prevalent on social media. The /r/antiwork crowd, discussions about working from home on tiktok, virtually any discussion about the struggles of life are just full of people screaming into the void, and I think it's rarely ever helpful for the people hearing it, but especially for the people shouting it.
On the topic of overall mental wellbeing (negative self-talk is discussed), this recent podcast from Peter Attia with Paul Conti is excellent: https://peterattiamd.com/paulconti4/
I agree entirely. I think that it is the perception of reality that is causing people to despair or give up, and this perception is more malleable than reality.
There is a part near the end where the speaker says "Gen Z is louder, but has less power", and I think he is missing this distinction. Gen Z has the same amount of power as prior generations of youth, which is to say none, but their perception of that reality and the perceived importance of that lack of power has changed.
Which I think is an important distinction, because in one case, it would maybe indicate that videos like this one might be part of the problem, and in the other case it doesn't really matter in the big picture.
When I clicked on the video, I was expecting it to rehash of grievances and reinforce the learned helplessness and hopelessness that you refer to. I was pleasantly surprised when it actually gave a very informative deconstruction of the phenomena and touched on the ways to counter it.
So while “the narrative problem” is certainly worth discussing, this video does not reinforce that narrative in a negative way.