82 votes

What's next for Kagi?

37 comments

  1. [6]
    Bonooru
    Link
    Seems to me that the biggest news is the profitability announcement.

    Seems to me that the biggest news is the profitability announcement.

    40 votes
    1. [5]
      WhiskeyJack
      Link Parent
      I'm quite interested in seeing what happens with the mobile apps for both iOS and Android, If they're creating their own mobile browser I'd be interested in giving it a look to see how it compares...

      I'm quite interested in seeing what happens with the mobile apps for both iOS and Android, If they're creating their own mobile browser I'd be interested in giving it a look to see how it compares to the privacy respecting Firefox/Chrome forks. I'm also looking forward to Kagi maps but I'm not sure if this has been announced before.

      15 votes
      1. [4]
        quarkw
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        FYI their webkit-based browser, Orion, has been available on iOS for a while. It's unclear if the announced cross-platform Kagi mobile apps will include a wrapper around Orion, but they may be...

        FYI their webkit-based browser, Orion, has been available on iOS for a while.

        It's unclear if the announced cross-platform Kagi mobile apps will include a wrapper around Orion, but they may be search-only

        10 votes
        1. [3]
          Eji1700
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          And i highly recommend it, if just because it's got built in adblocking, which is something that's difficult on IOS since you can't easily run things like uBlock. Edit- Supposedly adblock works on...

          And i highly recommend it, if just because it's got built in adblocking, which is something that's difficult on IOS since you can't easily run things like uBlock.

          Edit-
          Supposedly adblock works on safari and it was just user error on my part.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Weldawadyathink
            Link Parent
            Safari has supported content blockers since 2015, and full blown extensions since 2021. I personally use AdGuard, hush, and banish, but there are plenty of alternatives. Orion might be a great...

            Safari has supported content blockers since 2015, and full blown extensions since 2021. I personally use AdGuard, hush, and banish, but there are plenty of alternatives. Orion might be a great browser, but being able to use an adblocker doesn’t set it apart from safari.

            11 votes
            1. Eji1700
              Link Parent
              I swear I tried it on safari and it failed, so i've been daily driving firefox for quite a long time, which also didn't seem to support it. Seems like it's just user error so yeah ignore me

              I swear I tried it on safari and it failed, so i've been daily driving firefox for quite a long time, which also didn't seem to support it. Seems like it's just user error so yeah ignore me

              1 vote
  2. gco
    Link
    This post just convinced me to give Kagi a go. One question that I would have loved to see answered that wasn't in the post was their appetite to go public. Since they're currently profitable I'm...

    This post just convinced me to give Kagi a go. One question that I would have loved to see answered that wasn't in the post was their appetite to go public. Since they're currently profitable I'm guessing they're in no rush even if there's any interest at all. I'm mostly concerned about future enshitification, but I guess them being a PBC is somewhat of a reassurance that they're not heading straight there.

    19 votes
  3. [12]
    Rudism
    Link
    I've been a paid user since pretty early on (I got the "early adopter" badge on my account), but I've grown too skeptical (and cynical) about the proliferation of AI and LLMs to the point where I...

    I've been a paid user since pretty early on (I got the "early adopter" badge on my account), but I've grown too skeptical (and cynical) about the proliferation of AI and LLMs to the point where I just don't want to use or support products that incorporate them anymore--including Kagi who seem to be embracing it quite a bit with their instant answers, FastGPT, and summarizer features. So even though I'm still paid up until Sept I've pretty much switched 100% back to a self-hosted SearXNG instance for all my search needs.

    I get that LLMs are neat, but the amount of hype and blind YOLO adoption they're seeing across every inch of the internet feels kind of like blockchain did in the mid-2010s, only on crack cocaine.

    19 votes
    1. tauon
      Link Parent
      To be honest, from the way these features are integrated in an optional way, and not shoved down users’ throats, it gives me the impression that the team at Kagi see these tools and models as one...

      I just don't want to use or support products that incorporate [AI/LLMs] anymore--including Kagi who seem to be embracing it quite a bit

      To be honest, from the way these features are integrated in an optional way, and not shoved down users’ throats, it gives me the impression that the team at Kagi see these tools and models as one (of several) “means to an end” and not the “be all end all” – i.e., it has the potential to improve search QOL for some users, and is reasonably popular/in demand. So they just choose to integrate it, non-obtrusively, in a way that makes actually sense.

      Basically, it’s them doing something to stay competitive, which I’m all the more in favor of if it means they never go out of business.

      19 votes
    2. winther
      Link Parent
      I follow you on the reluctance on using stuff that incorporates AI. In their defense, I do like how Kagi's approach to it is very opt in and optional. The tools are there but you can still use...

      I follow you on the reluctance on using stuff that incorporates AI. In their defense, I do like how Kagi's approach to it is very opt in and optional. The tools are there but you can still use basic search without any of that stuff. Unlike basically every over tech company that tries to shove AI at users that noone asked for with default opt-in.

      15 votes
    3. 0x29A
      Link Parent
      I agree that this made me feel slightly uneasy with my Kagi subscription, though the benefits of the search engine far outweigh it at this point for me. I pay for the $10/month unlimited plan and...

      I agree that this made me feel slightly uneasy with my Kagi subscription, though the benefits of the search engine far outweigh it at this point for me. I pay for the $10/month unlimited plan and the results (and customization/weighting/blocking/pinning which to me is one of the key things) have been so far ahead of any other search engine for me and my constant search use, that I'm willing to compromise and do not see myself unsubscribing at any point in the future. I'm even currently unemployed at the moment and the search has been so good- it's not been one of the costs I've cut.

      That, and as others have said, Kagi takes a different approach to AI which they outline here. . Their reserved approach makes me feel a bit more comfortable with it. As they say, it's opt-in and on-demand and they've said elsewhere they don't want search results full of "LLM-generated content", so to me, Kagi is embracing AI with more awareness than most other places I've seen it.

      I'd prefer they not include it at all, though, so I get it. Thankfully I can use Kagi without ever seeing AI. As long as it stays opt-in I am relatively happy.

      11 votes
    4. [5]
      Habituallytired
      Link Parent
      This is the thing that's holding me back. I'm already forced to use an LLM/AI search engine no matter which one I choose. I was really hoping Kagi wouldn't integrate it as well. I was willing to...

      This is the thing that's holding me back. I'm already forced to use an LLM/AI search engine no matter which one I choose. I was really hoping Kagi wouldn't integrate it as well. I was willing to drop $5/month to try it for a few months, but I just don't want more AI proliferation like we saw with NFTs and blockchain and even last year with federation.

      5 votes
      1. [4]
        tibpoe
        Link Parent
        AI doesn't show up in Kagi unless you want it to. My use of it is: the Universal Summarizer (which is a separate page) a couple times a month to summarize long youtube videos Accidentally putting...

        AI doesn't show up in Kagi unless you want it to. My use of it is:

        • the Universal Summarizer (which is a separate page) a couple times a month to summarize long youtube videos
        • Accidentally putting a question mark at the end of my query which causes a LLM to summarize the results. Usually it's a good summary but I prefer to read the results myself.

        I don't like having stuff shoved in my face but I think kagi does it thoughtfully and only at my request.

        18 votes
        1. [2]
          ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          Yeah my primary use of LLMs in Kagi is for pulling some factoid that tends to be buried a page or two deep and is a pain to surface manually (e.g. dimensions of a particular model of car). I’ve...

          Yeah my primary use of LLMs in Kagi is for pulling some factoid that tends to be buried a page or two deep and is a pain to surface manually (e.g. dimensions of a particular model of car). I’ve never seen it invoked without me explicitly requesting it.

          7 votes
          1. jackson
            Link Parent
            You can also disable the question mark feature in Settings -> Search -> General. The setting is called "Auto Quick Answer" and is the last item on the page.

            You can also disable the question mark feature in Settings -> Search -> General. The setting is called "Auto Quick Answer" and is the last item on the page.

            11 votes
        2. Habituallytired
          Link Parent
          That's good to know too. I'll keep thinking on it then. I just really don't love the injection of AI into everything, even where it shouldn't be. There are great applications of AI, but...

          That's good to know too. I'll keep thinking on it then. I just really don't love the injection of AI into everything, even where it shouldn't be. There are great applications of AI, but SEO/results, itsn't it.

    5. [3]
      mzumquadrat
      Link Parent
      The adaption of AI was what made me unsubscribe from kagi. I want my money to go towards making a better search engine. Not wasting resources to train a complicated hallucination engine....

      The adaption of AI was what made me unsubscribe from kagi. I want my money to go towards making a better search engine. Not wasting resources to train a complicated hallucination engine. Especially because I found the AI features sub-par the few times I tried them.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        Grumble4681
        Link Parent
        What search engine did you end up moving to afterwards?

        What search engine did you end up moving to afterwards?

        2 votes
        1. mzumquadrat
          Link Parent
          I am currently using a combination of Google and DuckDuckGo. But I am using them very reluctantly. I am currently experimenting with setting up my own YaCy instance. The biggest problem for me is...

          I am currently using a combination of Google and DuckDuckGo. But I am using them very reluctantly. I am currently experimenting with setting up my own YaCy instance. The biggest problem for me is the abysmal quality of the search index in P2P mode vs. the need to crawl everything myself.

          1 vote
  4. [4]
    3_3_2_LA
    Link
    Interesting coincidence. A few days before the recent announcement, I decided to unsubscribe from Kagi. Although I appreciate being able to find what I'm searching for, I've found Kagi to be quite...

    Interesting coincidence. A few days before the recent announcement, I decided to unsubscribe from Kagi. Although I appreciate being able to find what I'm searching for, I've found Kagi to be quite unforgiving when it comes to typos and even simple corrections. For instance, if I search for "Master & Dynamic's" from an article by selecting and searching the text, I get zero results because only "Master & Dynamic" is considered the correct form. This behavior can be quite frustrating, and I find myself appending a "g" to my searches and using Google more often than not. If Kagi hopes to win over the general public, they need to improve in this area. With Google's 'AI search' now being a thing, this shouldn't be a difficult task.

    19 votes
    1. [3]
      fxgn
      Link Parent
      "Master & Dynamic's" immediately gives the correct result for me: https://kagi.com/search?q=Master+%26+Dynamic%27s&r=no_region&sh=ou6UbxR5ooE5JmebzB_8Nw In fact, this specific search is much...

      "Master & Dynamic's" immediately gives the correct result for me:

      https://kagi.com/search?q=Master+%26+Dynamic%27s&r=no_region&sh=ou6UbxR5ooE5JmebzB_8Nw

      In fact, this specific search is much better than Google, since the Google search shows the official Master&Dynamic website as a third result after two unrelated ads, and everything below it is barely related as well

      Are you sure you haven't accidentally enabled the "verbatim" mode in Kagi?

      26 votes
      1. [2]
        3_3_2_LA
        Link Parent
        Oh my, I can't believe it -- you were right! I do have verbatim enabled. No wonder my Kagi results were so frustrating! Thanks for pointing that out!

        Oh my, I can't believe it -- you were right! I do have verbatim enabled. No wonder my Kagi results were so frustrating! Thanks for pointing that out!

        7 votes
        1. bln
          Link Parent
          For what it’s worth, if you have any issue or dissatisfaction with Kagi, I find that you can get good support on their feedback website or Discord. They’ve even quickly fixed some small bug that...

          For what it’s worth, if you have any issue or dissatisfaction with Kagi, I find that you can get good support on their feedback website or Discord. They’ve even quickly fixed some small bug that was bothering me.

          3 votes
  5. [5]
    skybrian
    Link
    I would be interested in understanding more about the legal implications of becoming a public benefit corporation. They claim this means fewer legal restrictions, but my understanding is that...

    I would be interested in understanding more about the legal implications of becoming a public benefit corporation. They claim this means fewer legal restrictions, but my understanding is that ordinary corporations can already do pretty much whatever they want due to the business judgement rule.

    What does this allow them to do in practice? (Or is it more of a cultural values thing?)

    10 votes
    1. [2]
      unkz
      Link Parent
      It basically eliminates, or severely hamstrings, the fiduciary responsibility rule. A PBC can explicitly choose to do things that harm shareholder value. Specifically, this broadly immunizes them...

      It basically eliminates, or severely hamstrings, the fiduciary responsibility rule. A PBC can explicitly choose to do things that harm shareholder value. Specifically, this broadly immunizes them from things like shareholder lawsuits on the basis of stock performance.

      23 votes
      1. drannex
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Mostly, possibly. My second major startup was a PBC, it was not a decision to make lightly, but in most cases (that depends on the law of the state) you may also have to file a yearly public...

        Mostly, possibly.

        My second major startup was a PBC, it was not a decision to make lightly, but in most cases (that depends on the law of the state) you may also have to file a yearly public report disclosing your progress and impact on your mission, this could be financials, projects, environmental considerations and impact, and more. This could also mean, and again depends on state, a yearly audit by a third party.

        When that company was acquired it was something very important and hard to help the organization that acquired us to understand, nearly killed the deal as well, but didn't.

        While the "protections" from shareholders is a possibility, AFAIK it has not been tested in court. You get all the normal protections of an LLC, but with the legal-guideline that what you are doing is to make a positive impact. If your yearly report is showing the opposite, you could lose your status if taken up by a court.

        It's an entirely voluntary position to be in that likely doesn't have any real difference or protection that a standard LLC would not have, it's just a mark to show that you are conscious about your users and mission more than profit, and that you will take on the additional risks and effort to ensure that it will always be the case.

        It's a sort of mesh of a non-profit, and a corporation. It's a weird state to be in.

        17 votes
    2. [2]
      BitsMcBytes
      Link Parent
      I had a similar question. Another thing is... private companies can agree with their investors to offer zero information rights... effectively "we don't have to tell you anything" (as much as...

      I had a similar question. Another thing is... private companies can agree with their investors to offer zero information rights... effectively "we don't have to tell you anything" (as much as tv/media makes it sound like VCs gain control of a company, at least a couple companies not granting any information rights is pretty common in a given VC portfolio.)

      So my question is... what is the main benefit of being a PBC over just not giving your investors info rights? It sounds like being a PBC just means you don't have to go through the headache of explaining unsound financial moves to investors... but similarly if you don't offer information rights, you wouldn't have to do that anyways (and probably even have fewer transparency requirements?)

      3 votes
  6. [8]
    crdpa
    Link
    US$5/month (almost R$27) is too much for a search engine for me as I live in Brazil. Zoho Mail is R$5/month. It should have a similar pricing for us here.

    US$5/month (almost R$27) is too much for a search engine for me as I live in Brazil. Zoho Mail is R$5/month. It should have a similar pricing for us here.

    7 votes
    1. [2]
      gary
      Link Parent
      Part of the problem is that their cost per search doesn't go down with geography.

      Part of the problem is that their cost per search doesn't go down with geography.

      14 votes
      1. Tharrulous
        Link Parent
        Unfortunately, due to their current dependency with other indexer APIs, per-search costs are mostly fixed and cannot be easily scaled. About a year ago, Kagi experienced a crisis after Microsoft...

        Unfortunately, due to their current dependency with other indexer APIs, per-search costs are mostly fixed and cannot be easily scaled.

        About a year ago, Kagi experienced a crisis after Microsoft raised the price of their indexer API by 225% (from 1.25 cents to 2.8 cents per search!). As a result, their once unlimited premium plan was downgraded to only 700 searches per month. This stagnated their previously upward trajectory, leading users to unsubscribe, slowing down new sign-ups, and flatlining growth.

        Fortunately, they successfully navigated through the crisis and have now reinstated their unlimited search plan.

        Hopefully, as Kagi continues to expand their own indexer, they can reduce their reliance on these fixed costs, eventually introducing regional pricing.

        16 votes
    2. tauon
      Link Parent
      As far as I know, for privacy reasons, they currently don’t check IP addresses of users (same goes for if “family members” actually live in one household). So localized pricing would probably...

      As far as I know, for privacy reasons, they currently don’t check IP addresses of users (same goes for if “family members” actually live in one household). So localized pricing would probably pretty soon lead to abuse by users/customers… all the while their costs stay the same.

      Unfortunately I don’t think there’s an easy way to solve this dilemma.

      8 votes
    3. [4]
      pyeri
      Link Parent
      But what is the "premium" factor here? Why will one pay for Kagi Search when Google, Bing, DDG, Yahoo, Ask, Brave, Baidu, Yandex and a zillion other search engines are there for free?

      But what is the "premium" factor here? Why will one pay for Kagi Search when Google, Bing, DDG, Yahoo, Ask, Brave, Baidu, Yandex and a zillion other search engines are there for free?

      1 vote
      1. 0x29A
        Link Parent
        Quality of results. Much less SEO blog spam results. Customization of results (pin, weight, block domains). No ads. AI is opt-in. Supposedly better privacy in that your searches are not tied to...

        Quality of results. Much less SEO blog spam results. Customization of results (pin, weight, block domains). No ads. AI is opt-in. Supposedly better privacy in that your searches are not tied to you at all (if you trust what they say is true, always a 'gamble', in a way). I do a lot of searching and the features available allow me to get far better results than I do from others on a consistent, recurring basis. It saves me time and effort.

        18 votes
      2. unkz
        Link Parent
        The big one for me is being able to control my searches by domain. I don’t see any more Pinterest or quora results because they are garbage. And, no ads. Their filtering tech is quite useful.

        The big one for me is being able to control my searches by domain. I don’t see any more Pinterest or quora results because they are garbage. And, no ads. Their filtering tech is quite useful.

        12 votes
      3. Lia
        Link Parent
        When I started using Kagi, within two days I had already saved around 3 days of my time due to the results being so much better. I may be an extreme case due to the types of searches I do, but if...

        When I started using Kagi, within two days I had already saved around 3 days of my time due to the results being so much better. I may be an extreme case due to the types of searches I do, but if you check the example searches on the OP link, you'll see how much higher quality Kagi is compared to Google.

        10 votes
  7. Spydrchick
    Link
    Just started using based on Tildinos reccomendations. Great to see them starting to make some money Also: Leo LaPorte. Now there's a name I've not heard in a long long time. Anyone know if he...

    Just started using based on Tildinos reccomendations. Great to see them starting to make some money

    Also: Leo LaPorte. Now there's a name I've not heard in a long long time. Anyone know if he still has the TWiT Brickhouse? I still follow Tom Merrit and DTNS occasionally.

    3 votes