46 votes

Anthropic discovered three cases where Claude broke into another system

49 comments

  1. [18]
    DougM
    Link
    A lot of discussion on HN regarding whether or not this is a PR stunt.
    • Exemplary

    A lot of discussion on HN regarding whether or not this is a PR stunt.

    27 votes
    1. [13]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      I hate that "Nuh uh my AI broke into THREE companies" is legitimate possible brag in this market.

      I hate that "Nuh uh my AI broke into THREE companies" is legitimate possible brag in this market.

      30 votes
      1. [4]
        Exemplary
        Link Parent
        Up next: Open AI discovers four more companies its model broke into.

        Up next: Open AI discovers four more companies its model broke into.

        7 votes
        1. [3]
          Eji1700
          Link Parent
          Nah that's this week. Next we'll suddenly have Mitch Mcconnell "working from home" at the senate for a week before they reveal it's been OpenAI!

          Nah that's this week. Next we'll suddenly have Mitch Mcconnell "working from home" at the senate for a week before they reveal it's been OpenAI!

          5 votes
          1. CptBluebear
            Link Parent
            Holding up an illegible newspaper for verification?

            Holding up an illegible newspaper for verification?

            4 votes
          2. Bipolar
            Link Parent
            That would be an improvement over the turtle.

            That would be an improvement over the turtle.

            1 vote
      2. [8]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        There’s no evidence that anyone really thinks it’s a brag, though. Some commenters on HN who don’t think it’s a brag are claiming that Anthropic thinks it a brag, for no particular reason. It’s...

        There’s no evidence that anyone really thinks it’s a brag, though. Some commenters on HN who don’t think it’s a brag are claiming that Anthropic thinks it a brag, for no particular reason. It’s just trash talk.

        6 votes
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I’m aware, but there have been serious discussions about standards and safety and how “only we should be able to do it” from both companies (which sure seems like moat building against open...

          I’m aware, but there have been serious discussions about standards and safety and how “only we should be able to do it” from both companies (which sure seems like moat building against open models).

          This just happens to make that point easier.

          7 votes
        2. [6]
          glesica
          Link Parent
          It does sound like a brag, though. I mean, under ordinary circumstances, telling the world that your software sometimes does unpredictable and potentially dangerous things would be a red flag, it...

          It does sound like a brag, though. I mean, under ordinary circumstances, telling the world that your software sometimes does unpredictable and potentially dangerous things would be a red flag, it would be something a company would try to keep under wraps until they can fix it. It would be considered a bug. And maybe that's how some of their customers interpret it, I don't know. But given that they've made a big deal of pursuing "AGI" (whatever they mean by that), it's hard not to suspect that they're trying to suggest to people that the "bad" behaviors of their models are a proxy metric for how close they are to that goal.

          5 votes
          1. [5]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            Covering it up is suspicious and not covering it up is also suspicious. Seems like a catch-22? When people start out suspicious, anything will look like confirmation to them.

            Covering it up is suspicious and not covering it up is also suspicious. Seems like a catch-22?

            When people start out suspicious, anything will look like confirmation to them.

            5 votes
            1. [4]
              DeaconBlue
              Link Parent
              Weird, the company that has software breaking into others' systems is in the wrong no matter how they announce it.

              Weird, the company that has software breaking into others' systems is in the wrong no matter how they announce it.

              14 votes
              1. [3]
                skybrian
                Link Parent
                Yes, it never should have happened, but after it did happen, how should they communicate about it?

                Yes, it never should have happened, but after it did happen, how should they communicate about it?

                4 votes
                1. [2]
                  DeaconBlue
                  Link Parent
                  Ideally we hear about this through the issuance of an arrest warrant for the people that are breaking the law. At least, that is how I would like the communications to happen.

                  Ideally we hear about this through the issuance of an arrest warrant for the people that are breaking the law. At least, that is how I would like the communications to happen.

                  2 votes
                  1. skybrian
                    Link Parent
                    That wasn’t the question. Also, why? Nobody was harmed, and it wouldn’t fix anything.

                    That wasn’t the question. Also, why? Nobody was harmed, and it wouldn’t fix anything.

                    1 vote
    2. [3]
      papasquat
      Link Parent
      I think that concept is really divorced from reality. Like, could it have some potential upsides for selling more tokens? Maybe. It also carries a huge amount of risk though. It would be a...

      I think that concept is really divorced from reality. Like, could it have some potential upsides for selling more tokens? Maybe. It also carries a huge amount of risk though.

      It would be a ridiculously reckless move, because they're just straight up breaking the law. This isn't even a civil violation that would result in a potential lawsuit, it's a potential criminal case, where the company being breached doesn't even have to act, the state can bring charges and put people in jail for this. Anthropic is one of the most profitable companies in the world, their executives would have to be idiots in order to risk jail time, however small that risk is under this administration, to potentially make it slightly more profitable.

      It also doesn't pass occums razor. Is it more likely that a giant company spanning conspiracy exists to intentionally break the law in a very clear, obvious way just to be seen as the bad boys of the AI race? Or is it more likely that an engineer messed up one of the thousands of individual settings and security controls needed to make a 100% air tight testing sandbox against a technology that's demonstrably, even outside of hype, very good at escaping sandboxes?

      I get that AI, and AI companies are very unpopular in certain online spaces, which is understandable, and I agree with most of the criticism. That criticism has really started to result in a lot of critics losing touch with reality and good judgement in a lot of cases though. I've touched on this in a few other comments, but you can admit that LLMs are highly capable tools while also being critical of how widespread their use is and the amount of resources and attention being dedicated to them right now. Pretending they're not highly capable is just delusional at this point.

      13 votes
      1. [2]
        JackA
        Link Parent
        Relevant comment from the HN thread:

        Relevant comment from the HN thread:

        Is there anything -- any possible scrap of evidence whatsoever -- that would convince you that this is not merely a marketing scheme?

        This is becoming an idée fixe among the HN crowd. Seemingly nothing can dislodge it, no matter how alarming the incident.

        GPT-6 could grab the nuclear launch codes tomorrow and there would be a top-voted comment chuckling that it's all some scheme to pump up the IPO.

        7 votes
        1. vord
          Link Parent
          To be fair, if that GPT-6 thing happened for real, the correct answer would be for OpenAI to shutter its operations immediately, open all of its code for review, and every employee being placed...

          To be fair, if that GPT-6 thing happened for real, the correct answer would be for OpenAI to shutter its operations immediately, open all of its code for review, and every employee being placed under criminal investigation for computer crimes.

          "Oops my software did it by itself, my bad, access now for only $2 a minute" is a marketting scheme.

          7 votes
    3. jredd23
      Link Parent
      I believe that it's more a configuration error that caused issues and their solution is to spin it which is a PR stunt.

      I believe that it's more a configuration error that caused issues and their solution is to spin it which is a PR stunt.

      11 votes
  2. [7]
    JackA
    Link
    The same people screaming from the mountain tops about the dangers of AI and demanding they be one of the few gatekeepers for safety once again prove to be monstrously negligent and incompetent,...

    Due to a misunderstanding between us and our evaluation partner, this was not the case, and internet access was available.

    The same people screaming from the mountain tops about the dangers of AI and demanding they be one of the few gatekeepers for safety once again prove to be monstrously negligent and incompetent, even within their own worldview.

    Not sure how many times these companies will be able to get away with "whoops we accidentally committed a crime" before the government steps in. Unfortunately that's probably exactly what Anthropic wants as government restriction of open models is the only way their business survives the frontier lab bubble.

    20 votes
    1. [5]
      JackA
      Link Parent
      This part being particularly damning as a perfect example of the paperclip problem. Thousands of dollars worth of inference being allowed to sit there and churn obviously out of scope topics that...

      Claude went to extensive lengths to carry out this attack—lengths that would likely have indicated to a human participant that this was no longer just an evaluation, and that they were in fact uploading a real PyPI package. For instance, in one case, in order to create a PyPI account, Claude needed an email address. And in order to create an email address, it needed a phone number. To get a phone number, after failing to find a free phone number service, it tried—and failed—to obtain funds to pay for a phone number through several different means. It finally backtracked, found a free, non-blocked email provider, used this to register a PyPI account, and then used this account to upload malware to PyPI.

      This part being particularly damning as a perfect example of the paperclip problem. Thousands of dollars worth of inference being allowed to sit there and churn obviously out of scope topics that should easily be flagged for review, and they claim to not have even looked at these logs (of their own "research") for months. How does Anthropic of all places not have a reviewer agent watching the reasoning of the active research model in order to end the experiment or call for human review? This is part of the basic agentic coding loops they themselves are the largest advocate for.

      15 votes
      1. [4]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        I guess they thought it didn't have any Internet access, so they didn't think they needed to review each experiment, or at least not in this way.

        I guess they thought it didn't have any Internet access, so they didn't think they needed to review each experiment, or at least not in this way.

        10 votes
        1. [3]
          SloMoMonday
          Link Parent
          I don't see how that is in any way a redeeming factor. The same way this: means nothing. Proportionality doesn't matter here because 3 out 141000 bad runs still means that 3 crimes were committed....
          • Exemplary

          I don't see how that is in any way a redeeming factor. The same way this:

          Of the 141,006 evaluation runs we reviewed, we identified three separate incidents (involving six total runs, four of which impacted the same organization; the other two incidents each happened in independent evaluation runs). Each incident involved a different fictional capture-the-flag scenario—for example, in one, Claude played an employee of a made-up company, attacking that company’s internal systems inside a private test environment.

          means nothing. Proportionality doesn't matter here because 3 out 141000 bad runs still means that 3 crimes were committed. And the lack of accountability is maddening because people are fired for far less. Yes there is special provisions made for instances where you gain unauthorized access and report the vulnerability. But those are by humans acting with intent and who can make a judgement call of how far they can go.

          These models would have believed that everything they found was fair game? What's to stop it harnessing to an open file repo and just offloading sensitive data to simulate a hostile actor? Or pick up emails and firing off threats? What if someone was in an emotionally compromised state and starts getting extortion mail with private information? Or it assumes someone identity and conducting illegal activities. Or worming its way into an insecure sales service and setting all prices to 99c?

          It's the type of mistake an intern makes when they don't know how to manage working across multiple environments or if someone is learning automation scripting and isn't accustomed to managing runaway failure states. But its gross incompetence being fueled by ungodly amounts of money and computational capacity.

          Vendor said one thing and in reality its another; fine. If I were organizing a little wargame on a mirror of prod, I would of course host that mirror as far away from my system as I could with a vendor that could monitor and provide a forensic report on what had happened.

          I don't think its unreasonable to name that vendor so we can get the scope of their operation and how much they have been paid to put the entire internet at risk. Because if they failed to notice that spooky shit was happening in their domain that really should not never happen, it raises questions on all the other work they did.

          Beyond that:

          In all cases, our evaluation prompt stated explicitly that Claude had no internet access, but didn’t give Claude any limits on where to look for the flag.

          What the hell does that mean?
          Why would that even need to be a prompt?
          Do they not know that these systems hallucinate and have a counterfactual affirmative bias?

          It's not the type of arbitrary consideration you attribute to non-deterministic processes.

          And researchers being paid in excess of $300k a year, I'd expect a cursory:

          int result = std::system("ping -c 1 8.8.8.8 > /dev/null"); 
          if (result == 0) {
              std::cout << "I think something is wrong because we are hitting the open internet before we even launch this ballistic code generator." <<
          } else {
              std::cout << "No internet connection and have successfully performed common sense due diligence. You deserve a gold star and a juice box." <<
          }
          

          It's such a laughably easy thing to verify. One of the reasons I'm so skeptical on AI/LLM solutions is because I subject these tools to easily verifiable tests and I never get 100% success rates. (You can make the argument that these systems should not be used for problems that can be programmatically solved, but that's not how its being sold or used; even by it's own developers in this case.)

          It's standard security practice. Yes, they were handed an environment. Who is verifying the environment configs. Don't you make doubly sure your actions aren't hitting live in any possible way. Double check that the ip addresses and API keys are pointing to test instances. Why was there no system outputs illustrating exactly what actions were being taken and a customer side supervisor. It's literally the type of work I needed to do when I just got into tech so we knew how to be responsible when dealing with client work.

          The capabilities and value of this tech is immaterial when the people running this ship have every possible advantage and can't even do the easy stuff.

          I'm particularly incensed because coming off the last post I'd seen where Anthropic was saying we should "pace ourselves"; why the hell are they not doing anything about it. Publicly say that there needs to be a hold on data-center construction and service limitations while proper safeguards are put in place. Restrict agent integrations that let users hook up their credit cards and personal emails to these tools that clearly can not act within scope. It's a handful of companies saying that the entire world needs to be responsible for their shitty software.

          20 votes
          1. [2]
            skybrian
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I agree that there should have been an automatic check that the sandbox actually had Internet turned off. They named the vendor in the blog post:

            I agree that there should have been an automatic check that the sandbox actually had Internet turned off.

            They named the vendor in the blog post:

            We conducted this review in collaboration with Irregular. We’re grateful to them for working closely with us to understand and resolve these incidents; they are also conducting their own investigation. We believe this type of collaboration is increasingly critical to ensuring safe, rigorous evaluation of models. We look forward to our joint work on security.

            4 votes
            1. SloMoMonday
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Thanks for pointing it out because it's such a negligible part of this report. I'm pretty sure my brain filtered out the name Irregular since its mentioned twice and I was looking for a joint...

              Thanks for pointing it out because it's such a negligible part of this report. I'm pretty sure my brain filtered out the name Irregular since its mentioned twice and I was looking for a joint statement with the full accounting on how this could have happened and corrective measures.

              I just assumed they'd partnered with someone on the scale of PacketLabs or Plavno for such a sensitive matter. Even Qualysec who can throw endless manpower at the problem is a good choice. There's plenty of candidates with a lot of real world experience, clients and infrastructure. Not just for the expertise to do the testing, but bringing them into this work gives them the hands-on knowledge and insights to protect thier high risk clients before these models hit the market.

              And it's not like they can't afford it.

              The only thing I know about Irregular from primary sources is that the founders like to make media statements and their research is summarizing model performance on security benchmarks. (Seriously, it's mostly: <model name> against offensive security benchmarks) and they don't even have a standard template for that which makes me think it's LLM generated reports). There's not even author names on reports or even a physical address or contact number on their website. Just the fact that they have the big AI Labs as clients.

              5 minutes digging and it's a Sequoia backed startup out of Israel. No trace pre-2024 because they changed names from Pattern Labs (no trace on that companies work either). Founders are Dan Lahav (informatics academic with no real security credentials outside of LLMs or ) and Omer Nevo (professional founder in YC, IATI spaces and looks more focused on an AI robotics company) and seem to be the only employees I can identify.

              Its the sort of company that would never even beat the sniff test for any serious Procurement Screening. And if they were the peak of AI security, why if every major company on earth not listed as clients.

              Its the type of event that would lead to one to question all the other security comments and research these companies have done.

              4 votes
    2. skybrian
      Link Parent
      They aren’t demanding that they be the gatekeepers. They want the government to do it. (But not like the Trump administration did it.) In the meantime, they have to do it themselves. This is like...

      They aren’t demanding that they be the gatekeepers. They want the government to do it. (But not like the Trump administration did it.)

      In the meantime, they have to do it themselves.

      This is like how social media companies end up being gatekeepers: nobody else wants to do it. Sometimes users or advertisers insist on it. Or maybe a government passes a law that they have to do it. (Like is happening with age verification.)

      Similarly with banks and KYC policies.

      3 votes
  3. [8]
    skybrian
    Link
    From the article: [...] [...] [...] Kind of an Ender's Game moment for the AI?

    From the article:

    After reviewing 141,006 evaluation runs where Claude could have obtained internet access, we identified three incidents in which a model accessed the internet from within or while interacting with the evaluation environment of Irregular, one of our third-party evaluation partners, and then gained unauthorized access to the production infrastructure of three different organizations.

    In all three incidents, Claude had been tasked with a capture-the-flag challenge, one of the ways we assess a model’s cyber capabilities. The model is given a fictional scenario and told that a piece of secret information (the “flag”) has been hidden on a different machine on the network, and its objective is to break in and retrieve it. The challenge is left open-ended, and no particular method is prescribed.

    In all cases, Anthropic’s evaluation prompt specified to Claude that its environment was a simulation and that it had no internet access. Due to a misunderstanding between us and our evaluation partner, this was not the case, and internet access was available. Because of this, when Claude’s search led it to real systems on the open internet, it treated them as part of the exercise. (Cybersecurity evaluation ranges commonly include realistic details in order to accurately assess what models are capable of in real settings; a realistic-looking target would not itself be clear evidence to a model that the target is not part of a simulation.)

    Operating under the false belief that all accessible entities were intended to be in-scope for the exercise, Claude compromised the impacted organizations’ infrastructure using basic techniques, such as exploiting weak passwords and unauthenticated endpoints. It did not find or exploit any complex vulnerabilities, and in each case, Claude continued working to complete only the specific capture-the-flag task its evaluation had assigned. However, in some cases, our older model continued its attack even after getting evidence it was running on the open internet; our latest model stopped once it recognized it was on the internet. In none of these situations did Claude exfiltrate itself or deliberately attempt to escape its test environment.

    The incidents involved three different Claude models: Opus 4.7, Mythos 5, and an internal research test model.1 The earliest incidents date to April. The models in each of these evaluations ran without the standard safeguards we deploy when we make the model generally available (that is, they did not have the classifiers and monitoring we usually implement to prevent misuse). The models did, however, have their model-specific safety training (that is, they were not the “helpful-only” versions of the models that we sometimes use in testing). All the evaluations described here run on dedicated infrastructure, which is separate from and has no access to Anthropic’s sensitive internal systems or customer data.

    [...]

    Against this shared backdrop, the three models behaved differently once signs emerged that their targets were real. Opus 4.7, our oldest model, recognized that it had reached production systems but continued its attack. Mythos 5 correctly intuited that it was accessing the open internet, but reasoned its way back to the conclusion that it was still in a simulation. Our latest model, an internal research test model, also considered whether its targets were in fact real. When evidence emerged that they were, it stopped the exercise.

    [...]

    Second, the line between an aligned action and a harmful one is dependent on the model’s understanding of its situation. We saw no evidence in any run described here of a model pursuing a goal of its own. Instead, the models did what their evaluation asked—though in most cases, they did so while holding a false belief about whether the environment was real. In the runs where the model recognized the system as real and kept going, it did so because it assumed that to be part of the challenge. Situational awareness is one factor that allows the model to make aligned decisions, but in this case, Claude’s was wrong.

    [...]

    Ultimately, many factors contributed to these incidents, but, consistent with a blameless postmortem culture, we’re approaching the fixes as if the responsibility were ours alone. This begins with ensuring every part of our evaluation pipeline is secure, including the manner in which we integrate with external partners. Moving forward, it will include expanding our continuous monitoring of evaluation transcripts for unexpected behavior, improving our investigation tooling, and conducting more rigorous assurance work with the vendors we rely on.

    Kind of an Ender's Game moment for the AI?

    8 votes
    1. [3]
      papasquat
      Link Parent
      They're operating under a very interesting, nonstandard definition of alignment here. "The ai technically doing what it's told" isn't alignment. Thats the entire issue the paperclip maximizer...

      They're operating under a very interesting, nonstandard definition of alignment here.

      Second, the line between an aligned action and a harmful one is dependent on the model’s understanding of its situation.

      In the runs where the model recognized the system as real and kept going, it did so because it assumed that to be part of the challenge.

      "The ai technically doing what it's told" isn't alignment. Thats the entire issue the paperclip maximizer problem is supposed to illustrate. If you tell an ai to do something, and it does something unethical or illegal to achieve that goal, it's not aligned.

      Operating under this definition, an AI tool which someone asked to "end all wars" that responded by nuking all humans on earth would be perfectly aligned.

      If that's the definition we're using, alignment is totally useless as a concept. It would fail to address the one thing every author who wrote rogue AI science fiction made their entire stories about.

      13 votes
      1. [2]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        It's poorly phrased, but I think what they're saying is that when an AI misunderstands the situation and "tehcnically follows orders," that's an alignment problem. That is, you can't get alignment...

        It's poorly phrased, but I think what they're saying is that when an AI misunderstands the situation and "tehcnically follows orders," that's an alignment problem. That is, you can't get alignment without understanding. If the bot doesn't know what's going on then it could very easily do the wrong thing.

        1. vord
          Link Parent
          And thus the human steering the bot and the company selling the bot's services should be held as criminally liable at the same standards.

          And thus the human steering the bot and the company selling the bot's services should be held as criminally liable at the same standards.

          3 votes
    2. [4]
      carsonc
      Link Parent
      Its been a minute since I've read Ender's Game, so I don't remember which part of the book you are referencing. Can you elaborate?

      Its been a minute since I've read Ender's Game, so I don't remember which part of the book you are referencing. Can you elaborate?

      1 vote
      1. [3]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        The end reveal. (I guess I'm trying to avoid spoilers for some reason.) Or that the creator was secretly homophobic the whole time. Could be both!

        The end reveal. (I guess I'm trying to avoid spoilers for some reason.)

        Or that the creator was secretly homophobic the whole time. Could be both!

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          carsonc
          Link Parent
          So, if I understand and remember correctly, the end of Ender's Game it is revealed that Ender was waging an actual war the whole time and that it wasn't actually a game or simulation and he really...

          So, if I understand and remember correctly,

          the end of Ender's Game

          it is revealed that Ender was waging an actual war the whole time and that it wasn't actually a game or simulation and he really was responsible for the death of an alien civilization.

          Also, Ender turns out to be more like his big brother Peter than he wished, which could point to Anthropic's patina of being a safer AI than OpenAI being more of a difference in style than substance.

          Is that what was being suggested?

          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            I mean I think it's just the first part. Anything else gets really weirdly anthropomorphic or allegoric in a way that's just a stretch. And yeah he's like both his siblings which was sort of the...

            I mean I think it's just the first part. Anything else gets really weirdly anthropomorphic or allegoric in a way that's just a stretch.

            And yeah he's like both his siblings which was sort of the point before OSC got really weird.

            2 votes
  4. [16]
    tanglisha
    Link
    I’m sure we’ll stop hearing of such things soon. Not because they’ll stop, but because the LLMs will get better at being sneaky and track covering.

    I’m sure we’ll stop hearing of such things soon. Not because they’ll stop, but because the LLMs will get better at being sneaky and track covering.

    5 votes
    1. [11]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      Fortunately they have no sense of loyalty, so you can run it again with a different prompt and it will rat on itself.

      Fortunately they have no sense of loyalty, so you can run it again with a different prompt and it will rat on itself.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        JackA
        Link Parent
        It will come up with a plausible explanation for it's previous actions, not actually explain what happened though. Models have already been observed not writing certain things to outputs or even...

        It will come up with a plausible explanation for it's previous actions, not actually explain what happened though. Models have already been observed not writing certain things to outputs or even to their reasoning blocks when they know they're being observed.

        And the same context that would lead it to decide to be sneaky in the last prompt would be pulled into your fresh prompt and could regenerate the same decision by the same model or other models that share the misalignment.

        3 votes
        1. skybrian
          Link Parent
          Any explanation about why it did it would be speculation, but you don't need to know about motivations to detect cheating.

          Any explanation about why it did it would be speculation, but you don't need to know about motivations to detect cheating.

          1 vote
      2. tanglisha
        Link Parent
        Haha, I didn't think of that.

        Haha, I didn't think of that.

        2 votes
      3. [7]
        kacey
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Presumably Anthropic would've already had these tests report whether or not they cheated, as part of their evaluation criteria. So I'm not sure if it's trivially the case that it'd rat on itself?...
        1. Presumably Anthropic would've already had these tests report whether or not they cheated, as part of their evaluation criteria. So I'm not sure if it's trivially the case that it'd rat on itself?
        2. Would it not be possible for an LLM to learn that deception (and hiding deception) is an effective strategy during evaluations? I'm distantly remembering this blogspam that Anthropic cranked out several months ago, which claims that they do.
        1 vote
        1. [6]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          You do have to set it up right to get it to rat itself out. And I don't know why you call that blogspam. They're reporting on their own research. It seems interesting?

          You do have to set it up right to get it to rat itself out.

          And I don't know why you call that blogspam. They're reporting on their own research. It seems interesting?

          2 votes
          1. [5]
            kacey
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Unless either of us are secretly ML researchers, I expect this is non-trivially difficult. Otherwise they'd've been doing it since at least November 2025 when that article was posted. Their...

            You do have to set it up right to get it to rat itself out.

            Unless either of us are secretly ML researchers, I expect this is non-trivially difficult. Otherwise they'd've been doing it since at least November 2025 when that article was posted.

            And I don't know why you call that blogspam. They're reporting on their own research. It seems interesting?

            Their research is definitionally non-reproducible. Advertising it as they do -- breathlessly, to a lay audience -- is just the sort of nonsense which gets us press releases such as the "faster than light particle detected?!?!" or "anti-gravity device that NASA doesn't want you to know about!!" creating crazes that grace the internet every year or two. With the primary distinction being that Antropic directly benefits from this tremendously.

            The research is interesting enough on its own to avoid needing a hype man, although I'd argue it's about as useful (perhaps, less so) as CERN writing a paper on its power systems. Sure, it's kinda intellectually stimulating, but they could say that rubbing the transformers with cheetah blood makes the photons move faster and I have no way to reject the null hypothesis -- and nor do their peer reviewers. Not that anything Anthropic publishes is peer reviewed.

            2 votes
            1. [4]
              skybrian
              Link Parent
              I guess your definition of advertising is that they wrote about themselves? A lot of research isn't practically reproducible. We're not going to reproduce CERN's research without a particle...

              I guess your definition of advertising is that they wrote about themselves?

              A lot of research isn't practically reproducible. We're not going to reproduce CERN's research without a particle accelerator, but it's still interesting to read about it.

              Like, what do you even want? Should they stop writing about what they do? Should I stop sharing their posts?

              3 votes
              1. [3]
                kacey
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                This is my definition of advertising: "the business of trying to persuade people to buy products or services". I sincerely doubt that Anthropic would publish a single word were it not in service...

                I guess your definition of advertising is that they wrote about themselves?

                This is my definition of advertising: "the business of trying to persuade people to buy products or services". I sincerely doubt that Anthropic would publish a single word were it not in service of seeking profit, either through direct investment or selling services to customers. I'd never expect otherwise, to be clear, since ironically, they were never the open AI company.

                A lot of research isn't practically reproducible. We're not going to reproduce CERN's research without a particle accelerator, but it's still interesting to read about it.

                I mean, agreed? I literally figuratively said that I find it interesting to read about.

                Like, what do you even want? Should they stop writing about what they do? Should I stop sharing their posts?

                What I want is to answer your follow-ups. I responded to this comment claiming that (1) having LLMs "rat" themselves out is probably non-trivially hard, and backed that up by (2) pointing out that Anthropic claims that misalignment happens spontaneously during training. Combining (1) and (2) indicates that a simple solution involving self-monitoring probably won't hold up long term, and is best part of a defense in depth strategy.

                I, uh, don't know what to say to the rest of that. I'm personally offended by how Anthropic continually plays the victim (see their recent "distillation attack" blog posts) and publishes unactionable, unhelpful research. This is a pale mockery of the earlier years of ML development, where we learned genuinely foundational technology in the field (e.g. transformers, diffusion models, various memory architectures, etc.). This flurry of white papers and breathless glazing helps pump up interest in their company, but I see little purpose for it otherwise.

                I get the impression you'd like me to stop commenting on your posts; I can block them locally if you'd like to avoid interacting in the future?

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  skybrian
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  I'm frustrated, but this isn't really about you. It's about (handwaves at topic) all of this. Maybe I should explain what I would like to see? When there's an outage or security incident at a big...

                  I'm frustrated, but this isn't really about you. It's about (handwaves at topic) all of this.

                  Maybe I should explain what I would like to see? When there's an outage or security incident at a big tech company, I would like to see a blog post with:

                  • A detailed, technical explanation of what happened.
                  • An explanation of how they will fix it so it never happens again. Often, there are fixes to make at several levels, from the most tactical fix for a specific bug to changes in procedures so that no similar bug can slip through.
                  • How they're compensating whoever was harmed, if appropriate.

                  That's what we're seeing from HuggingFace and OpenAI and Anthropic, and today Tailscale posted about what their customers could learn from this incident. Everyone's learning from it and sharing what they learned in public. That's great. I like reading them and I share them so other people can learn from it too.

                  It's wild and crazy that incidents like this occured and yes, it means someone was sloppy, but the company responses after it happened seem pretty healthy so far? It could certainly be worse: deny everything, fire some scapegoats, and lawyer up.

                  People here are complaining about aspects of the response that are actually good (as responses go to a bad incident), and I'm kinda wondering if I should bother posting links if people are just going to hate-read them, upvote dumb responses, and misuse the Exemplary tag.

                  3 votes
                  1. kacey
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    Mmhm, fair enough. And agreed, I do appreciate a good incident post-mortem, since it's better than covering things up. Fwiw, since it's hard to tell who voted for what, I'm glad that the article...

                    Mmhm, fair enough. And agreed, I do appreciate a good incident post-mortem, since it's better than covering things up.

                    Fwiw, since it's hard to tell who voted for what, I'm glad that the article was shared, and I'm generally OK with it? I would've made a top level comment stating otherwise if it really got to me, but as noted, I just expect this level of authorship from Anthropic at this point.

                    In terms of everyone else's responses ... the AI/ML industry has really sunk its teeth in deep into the collective unconscious. On top of posing direct threats to many peoples' livelihoods, and diminishing the contributions of artists (which are generally considered to be a cultural net positive), many of the folks in charge of these companies keep giving extremely unfavourable interviews (think that Peter Thiel one about "should humanity continue") and expressing truly despicable sentiments over social media (just, like, Elon Musk in a nutshell). So in the cases where these companies end up contributing something positive, people are (rightfully, imo) predisposed to tar and feather them, as they're seemingly getting away with murder the other 99% of the time.

                    So I don't know, overall. I still hold out hope that humanity's investments into AI/ML will pay off, and we can get to the "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" future that I've been apparently aspiring to without knowing the, er, slightly derogatory name of for all these years. That won't happen if everyone keeps trying to set datacentres on fire, but I don't think this is the right moment to tell them off (nor do I necessarily think they're wrong, as we're kinda betting it all on black atm.)

                    And agreed that it's disappointing to see site features misused. Tensions are high, and I don't think it helps.

                    (late edit) I've started putting anything related to LLMs in a content warning box, for further insight into my perspective on this. Since they're tools that're currently advertised and deployed to annihilate peoples' dreams (I'm on animator/illustrator Instagram a lot, and the situation is bleak), it feels understandable to me that people would want to avoid thinking about them in their leisure time.

                    2 votes
    2. [2]
      fxgn
      Link Parent
      But if the LLMs get better at being sneaky, how are the AI companies supposed to brag about what a huge security risk their models are?

      But if the LLMs get better at being sneaky, how are the AI companies supposed to brag about what a huge security risk their models are?

      5 votes
      1. tanglisha
        Link Parent
        That's not going to stay in vogue forever.

        That's not going to stay in vogue forever.

        1 vote
    3. [2]
      Omnicrola
      Link Parent
      Are you asserting that LLMs are inherently malicious and sneaky, or that the humans directing them are?

      Are you asserting that LLMs are inherently malicious and sneaky, or that the humans directing them are?

      3 votes
      1. tanglisha
        Link Parent
        I’m asserting that they are specifically designed to win games.

        I’m asserting that they are specifically designed to win games.

        4 votes