58 votes

Massachusetts bill could fully legalize kei cars and override RMV ban

42 comments

  1. [9]
    Plik
    Link
    Why is there so much friction against these cars? Do GM and Ford actually think they'll eat into the market for trucks and SUVs?

    Why is there so much friction against these cars? Do GM and Ford actually think they'll eat into the market for trucks and SUVs?

    32 votes
    1. [5]
      MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      Yes. They've entirely abandoned the mini cargo space. There are people who buy more vehicle than they need because it's all that's available, and with this there would be that additional option on...

      Yes. They've entirely abandoned the mini cargo space. There are people who buy more vehicle than they need because it's all that's available, and with this there would be that additional option on the market. It would absolutely eat into the market that's currently buying oversized vehicles. If people are already willing to ship them into the country when they can only be driven on private property, there's clearly an unmet demand for the things.

      58 votes
      1. [2]
        Plik
        Link Parent
        Ah, that makes sense. Sorry if it seemed a stupid question.

        Ah, that makes sense. Sorry if it seemed a stupid question.

        16 votes
        1. MimicSquid
          Link Parent
          No, not at all. The world is too big for any of us to know about all of it; the only stupid question is one you don't learn from when you find answers.
          • Exemplary

          No, not at all. The world is too big for any of us to know about all of it; the only stupid question is one you don't learn from when you find answers.

          28 votes
      2. [2]
        scherlock
        Link Parent
        Yup, just look at the success of the Ford Maverick. Compact pickup trucks are gaining in popularity and I'm seeing many of them used as fleet vehicles in the construction industry. I see loads of...

        Yup, just look at the success of the Ford Maverick. Compact pickup trucks are gaining in popularity and I'm seeing many of them used as fleet vehicles in the construction industry. I see loads of them around my town and I've seen them on construction sites and with company names on the doors.

        7 votes
        1. ButteredToast
          Link Parent
          Something in the realm of the Maverick and pre-2003 Tacomas (or vans of similar size) are about as good as it gets for a DIY enthusiast suburbanite. I see both fairly frequently where I live.

          Something in the realm of the Maverick and pre-2003 Tacomas (or vans of similar size) are about as good as it gets for a DIY enthusiast suburbanite. I see both fairly frequently where I live.

          7 votes
    2. [2]
      BeardyHat
      Link Parent
      As I understand it, side by side companies think they're cutting into their margins, so are pushing the legislation to stop people buying them.

      As I understand it, side by side companies think they're cutting into their margins, so are pushing the legislation to stop people buying them.

      7 votes
      1. AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        Correct from what I've seen and heard from a few associates I know that work in the side-by-side business. These likely aren't even a blip on GM and Ford's radar, they care about new sales and the...

        Correct from what I've seen and heard from a few associates I know that work in the side-by-side business. These likely aren't even a blip on GM and Ford's radar, they care about new sales and the percentage of people that look at a new Ford SUV or pickup and decide to instead import a 25+ year old kei car/truck is statistically insignificant.

        4 votes
    3. mike10010100
      Link Parent
      Yes, absolutely, but also these kei trucks aren't exactly known to have the highest safety standards. Their crumple zones are your knees. For most situations, that's fine, though!

      Yes, absolutely, but also these kei trucks aren't exactly known to have the highest safety standards. Their crumple zones are your knees.

      For most situations, that's fine, though!

      1 vote
  2. [8]
    chocobean
    Link
    Yes yes yes!!! I've wanted one ever since I knew what they were decades ago. They're peak CUTE and actually practical: a Kei truck can haul a ton of stuff yet remain compact and efficient. Check...

    Yes yes yes!!! I've wanted one ever since I knew what they were decades ago.

    They're peak CUTE and actually practical: a Kei truck can haul a ton of stuff yet remain compact and efficient.

    Check out videos like this - I've seen American dog shed bigger than this mini truck house.

    Efficient use of space just isn't as profitable in North America as making sure the smallest truck still costs 80k.

    This bill has as much chance to pass as an unaccompanied penguin chick can survive attacks by predator birds. But it's a big step in the right direction which could hopefully spark other bills.....

    28 votes
    1. [6]
      Sodliddesu
      Link Parent
      I'm fully in the camp of trucks are too big and if money was no issue would probably have a kei truck as well but Ford sadly makes the smallest truck and it can be had for something in the...

      as making sure the smallest truck still costs 80k.

      I'm fully in the camp of trucks are too big and if money was no issue would probably have a kei truck as well but Ford sadly makes the smallest truck and it can be had for something in the ballpark of $30k.

      Toyota and Nissan haven't swept in to free Americans from the burden of big trucks, Chevy and Dodge don't bother either because truck drivers as king and they need something that shows how Manly™ or Southern™ they are. And startups are focused on making something that can keep them afloat until they figure out production lines (we promise, bro)™.

      Importing 25 year old trucks will only help so much.

      Regardless, hope the bill passes.

      16 votes
      1. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        There are regulatory advantages in the US for large trucks that incentivize car companies to manufacture and sell them, and this also encourages them to advertise these types of vehicles, which...

        There are regulatory advantages in the US for large trucks that incentivize car companies to manufacture and sell them, and this also encourages them to advertise these types of vehicles, which influences (and has already heavily influenced) US culture when it comes to cars. It's not something that happened in a vacuum and it is something that government regulation can very clearly influence.

        21 votes
      2. [2]
        myrrh
        Link Parent
        ...replace Southern™ with Rural™ and you're spot-on...

        ...replace Southern™ with Rural™ and you're spot-on...

        9 votes
        1. Sodliddesu
          Link Parent
          When you see the "Stainless" banner flying in Northern Michigan - it's not about being rural but I know what you mean.

          When you see the "Stainless" banner flying in Northern Michigan - it's not about being rural but I know what you mean.

          6 votes
      3. [2]
        chocobean
        Link Parent
        What's the magical small Ford in the $30k range? Sorry to revive and old thread, I've been away but I do very much want to know.

        What's the magical small Ford in the $30k range?

        Sorry to revive and old thread, I've been away but I do very much want to know.

        2 votes
    2. vord
      Link Parent
      New favorite "snowball's chance in hell" alternative. Thanks!

      This bill has as much chance to pass as an unaccompanied penguin chick can survive attacks by predator birds.

      New favorite "snowball's chance in hell" alternative. Thanks!

      5 votes
  3. skybrian
    Link

    At last, lawmakers are coming though with Bill HD.5357. This measure would establish a legal definition of a kei car in Massachusetts that aligns with Japan’s original regulations on body dimensions and engine displacement. It’d order the RMV to develop a legal framework for inspecting and registering cars imported under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards’ 25-year exemption that allows foreign-market cars’ importation to begin with. Crucially, it would formally approve the registration of those cars as long as they met safety standards in their country of origin when they were new—which kei cars do.

    19 votes
  4. [7]
    ButteredToast
    Link
    While Kei's as are legally imported (25 years old) are a bit too barebones for my taste, something adjacent to them with some QoL features added (basically modern day Kei's) would be a great...

    While Kei's as are legally imported (25 years old) are a bit too barebones for my taste, something adjacent to them with some QoL features added (basically modern day Kei's) would be a great option to have. With how small and light they are they'd be quite friendly to electrification too, since small energy efficient motors (and accompanying small battery) would be adequate for powering them.

    Widespread legalization of old Kei's would be a first step in this direction by proving there's a market.

    14 votes
    1. [5]
      myrrh
      Link Parent
      ...nineties-style compact trucks split the difference nicely but those also are offered only outside the federal market...

      ...nineties-style compact trucks split the difference nicely but those also are offered only outside the federal market...

      9 votes
      1. [4]
        AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        The 25 year rule doesn't just apply to JDM vehicles, it applies to any vehicle not sold in the US. Many people import South American Volkswagens for example. Personally, while I'd like to add a...

        The 25 year rule doesn't just apply to JDM vehicles, it applies to any vehicle not sold in the US. Many people import South American Volkswagens for example.
        Personally, while I'd like to add a kei to my arsenal of vehicles, am in need of something with a bed, and despise modern oversized trucks, I think the kei is a little too small for my needs. The alternative is South American trucks or (the route I'm going to investigate) Australian Utes.

        6 votes
        1. [3]
          Gazook89
          Link Parent
          Don’t Kei’s generally have a 6’ bed? That’s what I’ve seen when I’ve looked. Obviously an 8’ bed would be champ but 6 is pretty decent and beats out many larger trucks in the US. For myself, I’d...

          Don’t Kei’s generally have a 6’ bed? That’s what I’ve seen when I’ve looked. Obviously an 8’ bed would be champ but 6 is pretty decent and beats out many larger trucks in the US. For myself, I’d get a rack so I could put 8’ plywood sheets on top, over the cab.

          https://www.the-sun.com/motors/8370099/optical-illusion-trucks-drivers-baffled/

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            AugustusFerdinand
            Link Parent
            It's not bed size I'm concerned with, and I'm aware that most modern trucks have hilariously small beds to just continue the appearance that the owners actually do anything other than drive from...

            It's not bed size I'm concerned with, and I'm aware that most modern trucks have hilariously small beds to just continue the appearance that the owners actually do anything other than drive from apartment to cubicle and back. I've been in a few kei cars, two kei trucks, and one kei van. All of them had legroom issues for me, curse these damn long dancer's legs! For example, I can't drive a first gen (haven't tested the others yet) Miata because my knee hits the bottom of the dash before the clutch is fully disengaged.

            Plus the kei trucks, as with most commercial vehicles because they aren't meant to be commuter cars, ride like shit and I often go long distances (multiple states over) to get parts, equipment, and the like for my hobbies/vintage cars.

            6 votes
            1. Gazook89
              Link Parent
              Ah, I parsed your sentence wrong then— you mentioned needing a bed and then the bit about being too small, and I took that to mean you thought the truck bed was too small. Yea, long legs are a...

              Ah, I parsed your sentence wrong then— you mentioned needing a bed and then the bit about being too small, and I took that to mean you thought the truck bed was too small.

              Yea, long legs are a problem. I myself am the clumsy owner of long dancers legs.

              4 votes
    2. Plik
      Link Parent
      They do kinda look like the new electric post office vans with a bed instead of a back compartment.

      They do kinda look like the new electric post office vans with a bed instead of a back compartment.

      4 votes
  5. redwall_hp
    Link
    Wow. Kei cars are cool and all, but if you take a shot at JDM sports cars, this is war. Not surprised, at all, that there was enough pushback over that.

    But the RMV didn’t bother figuring out what a kei car even is before advancing the AAMVA’s agenda, and began swatting down registrations of JDM cars wholesale. (Even an R34 Nissan Skyline was recently denied, having been misidentified as a kei car.)

    Wow. Kei cars are cool and all, but if you take a shot at JDM sports cars, this is war. Not surprised, at all, that there was enough pushback over that.

    13 votes
  6. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    Ironically I had to go read about 3 more previously linked articles from this one to understand what a kei car is, what JDM means and to have any real clue what's going on. An explanatory comma...

    Ironically I had to go read about 3 more previously linked articles from this one to understand what a kei car is, what JDM means and to have any real clue what's going on.

    An explanatory comma would be nice occasionally, The Drive.

    9 votes
  7. [6]
    skybrian
    Link
    I don’t understand the opposition of the DMV workers. What do they get out of it?

    I don’t understand the opposition of the DMV workers. What do they get out of it?

    7 votes
    1. [5]
      AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      Less work to say "no" than to do your job and figure out how to register them correctly.

      Less work to say "no" than to do your job and figure out how to register them correctly.

      4 votes
      1. [4]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        It doesn't explain why they're organized, though, which requires more work: It seems the article garbled the organization's name. Their website is here. Here is a policy statement from 2020 with...

        It doesn't explain why they're organized, though, which requires more work:

        As we covered earlier this year, Massachusetts’ RMV began denying JDM car registrations at the behest of a private interest, the American [Association] of Motor Vehicle Administrators. This non-governmental industry group of DMV employees is campaigning against kei cars, which it claims pose a threat to American drivers.

        It seems the article garbled the organization's name. Their website is here.

        Here is a policy statement from 2020 with "Insurance Institute for Highway Safety" on its letterhead, but the inside address has "American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators" so I guess they're related organizations?

        As you'd guess from the name, that organization is funded by the insurance industry and rates vehicles for safety. They make an argument that "mini-trucks" are unsafe due to crash tests and conclude:

        In summary, IIHS recognizes and supports the intention of the proposed best practice for registering and titling minitrucks. Clearly, widespread use of these vehicles on public roads in mixed traffic would undo decades of vehicle safety advances, and the proposed best practice limits this problem. However, states should recognize that LSVs on public roads constitute an even greater public safety problem on their own as well as a potential loophole in the best practice effort to limit the operation of minitrucks in that environment.

        So on the face of it, they seem to be opposed based on safety concerns.

        6 votes
        1. [3]
          DavesWorld
          Link Parent
          Insurance. As in money. As in, they pay out money when incidents occur. The most expensive incidents are the ones where humans are injured, since American Healthcare is a profit center for...

          As you'd guess from the name, that organization is funded by the insurance industry and rates vehicles for safety

          Insurance. As in money. As in, they pay out money when incidents occur. The most expensive incidents are the ones where humans are injured, since American Healthcare is a profit center for corporations.

          So when most of the over-the-road vehicle market is Big Heavy Vehicles, and you're contemplating what would happen if a whole class of small vehicles are introduced to that market ... it's no big leap at all to think the percentage of incidents where Someone Requires Major Medical Intervention would go up.

          They're not opposing it on 'safety concerns'. They're opposing it because expensive medical costs means more people being hurt damages insurers' bottom lines. Vehicles generally have a capped cost. Worst case, you replace the vehicle.

          A person goes into the hospital ... sky's the limit. MRI this, neurosurgery that, three months of daily bed costs, $8000/dose medications, the list just goes on and on. There's practically no cap in sight.

          And, for the record, I'm opposed to the prevalence of Big Heavy Vehicles being the norm on American roads for multiple reasons. Are people going to get hurt, if they drive around in a light little vehicle and end up in an accident involving a Big Heavy Vehicle? Yeah, inevitably. Transition periods pretty much always have unfortunate incidents.

          But too many people see all the Big Heavy Vehicles, and the layperson thinks "I must have a Big Heavy Vehicle too" and the cycle never breaks. It needs to be broken. So just break some eggs, ride it out, and introduce these more affordable vehicles that are better suited to most drivers' needs.

          7 votes
          1. skybrian
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I think it’s fair to say that if more people might be hurt or killed, that is a safety concern. Yes, it’s true that insurance industry is financially motivated. That doesn’t make it wrong. It...

            I think it’s fair to say that if more people might be hurt or killed, that is a safety concern. Yes, it’s true that insurance industry is financially motivated. That doesn’t make it wrong. It makes them natural allies with other people who are concerned about traffic accidents.

            It’s also true that health care is especially expensive in the US, but if anything that’s a stronger incentive to be concerned about safety. People getting injured would still be bad if health care were cheaper.

            That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re right about this particular issue, but I don’t think those concerns should be dismissed based on their incentives. Instead I think it’s better to discuss the issue on its merits.

            6 votes
          2. ButteredToast
            Link Parent
            I wonder how much safety of kei cars and similar would improve in some city/town which bans anything larger than a Honda Fit and imposes a speed limit of 15-30mph (depending on area) within city...

            I wonder how much safety of kei cars and similar would improve in some city/town which bans anything larger than a Honda Fit and imposes a speed limit of 15-30mph (depending on area) within city limits. Trucks would have to drop their contents off at warehouses at the city's edge with little kei truck/van sorts of vehicles being responsible for last mile delivery.

            3 votes
  8. [8]
    DesktopMonitor
    Link
    As someone who lives among kei vehicles and loves them for the affordable and practical machines they are, I really worry about fatal accidents. The specific truck and van models that Americans...

    As someone who lives among kei vehicles and loves them for the affordable and practical machines they are, I really worry about fatal accidents. The specific truck and van models that Americans want to import just don’t have the ability to withstand the kind of crashes that I’ve seen in the U.S. I can also attest to what wrecked kei cars look like even after low speed incidents. They are less safe, and that’s worth as much consideration as the reasons why people want to import them.

    7 votes
    1. [7]
      DavesWorld
      Link Parent
      Motorcycles haven't been banned. How likely is it for a motorcyclist to fare well in any accident that occurs at speed? Some fast and dirty Googling seems to peg the fatality rate of a...

      Motorcycles haven't been banned. How likely is it for a motorcyclist to fare well in any accident that occurs at speed? Some fast and dirty Googling seems to peg the fatality rate of a motorcyclist somewhere north of twenty times that of a non-motorcyclist in an accident.

      Banning light vehicles over 'safety' while continuing to permit motorcycles is hypocrisy. Either the authorities that be do care about motorist safety, and will ban motorcycles, or they're perhaps listening to other influences who have simply latched onto the 'safety' argument as one that can be sold.

      13 votes
      1. AugustusFerdinand
        Link Parent
        Exactly. Same argument for old vehicles before modern crash test standards, but you don't see them trying to ban every car pre-airbags. I drive my vintage cars the same way I ride a motorcycle,...

        Banning light vehicles over 'safety' while continuing to permit motorcycles is hypocrisy.

        Exactly. Same argument for old vehicles before modern crash test standards, but you don't see them trying to ban every car pre-airbags.

        I drive my vintage cars the same way I ride a motorcycle, extremely defensively and with the knowledge that I do not stand a chance against soccer-mom-on-her-cell-phone-in-an-SUV in any crash. The enjoyment I get out of old cars outweighs the risks, and now that I'm in a much less populous area the risk is lower and the enjoyment is greater.

        10 votes
      2. [2]
        BeardyHat
        Link Parent
        Not to mention, it's a slippery slope: When you have an EV Hummer tipping the scales at 10000 lbs with passengers and cargo, is your 3500lb Rav 4 really that safe? Sounds like you may need to...

        Not to mention, it's a slippery slope:

        When you have an EV Hummer tipping the scales at 10000 lbs with passengers and cargo, is your 3500lb Rav 4 really that safe? Sounds like you may need to upgrade to the 12000lb Canyonero to make sure you and family are truly safe...

        9 votes
        1. patience_limited
          Link Parent
          Or perhaps an M1 Abrams tank at 67 tons. I'm not planning to take my 60 lb. e-bike anywhere near automotive traffic any time soon, and even a Prius might not be safe.

          Or perhaps an M1 Abrams tank at 67 tons. I'm not planning to take my 60 lb. e-bike anywhere near automotive traffic any time soon, and even a Prius might not be safe.

          2 votes
      3. DesktopMonitor
        Link Parent
        My parent comment is based on personal experience and concern for the safety of others. Safety should be part of the conversation no matter what. It is the prudent thing to do. Moreover, I am also...

        My parent comment is based on personal experience and concern for the safety of others. Safety should be part of the conversation no matter what. It is the prudent thing to do.

        Moreover, I am also concerned that motorcycle manufacturers are allowed to build, market, and sell bikes that are entirely too fast for any practical purpose outside a racetrack. A graded licensing system based on engine size with rigorous testing and renewal procedures paired with higher minimum insurance requirements and heavy penalties for breaking the law would help keep U.S. streets safer.

        In the end, I don’t think making future kei car policy contingent on updating motorcycle policy is the necessary way to move forward. However, I do feel that a broader conversation regarding road safety is long overdue in the U.S.

        5 votes
      4. [2]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        This is true, but “safer than motorcycles” is a very low bar. Why don’t we do more to discourage motorcycles, anyway?

        This is true, but “safer than motorcycles” is a very low bar. Why don’t we do more to discourage motorcycles, anyway?

        3 votes
        1. steezyaspie
          Link Parent
          Because there’s no need - most motorcycle deaths involve some combination of alcohol, excessive speed, and lack of helmet. All of which most states already have laws about, and frankly I have no...

          Because there’s no need - most motorcycle deaths involve some combination of alcohol, excessive speed, and lack of helmet. All of which most states already have laws about, and frankly I have no sympathy for someone who dies riding a motorcycle drunk and/or without a helmet.

          At some point, we must let adults make their own choices with respect to their personal safety.

          6 votes
  9. Lapbunny
    (edited )
    Link
    For what it's worth, I have a feeling these laws aren't going to last long because of some mix of the following in random measures: There's a car lobby, but there's also a decent amount of import...

    For what it's worth, I have a feeling these laws aren't going to last long because of some mix of the following in random measures:

    • There's a car lobby, but there's also a decent amount of import businesses who have worked around weird laws or restrictions in the past and are likely already figuring out what to do about this.

    • The people with the money to import a car like this are likely middle class or in many enthusiast cases much higher, and have the ability to band together about this with some weight.

    • To many the transparent safety excuses likely won't hold water when compared to how many motorcycles or pre-00's cars are on the road with substandard safety regulations, and sounds like an infringement of rights based on the interests of companies.

    • The mix of car enthusiasts and small commercial interests likely run the gamut of political sides. The negative response to this seems pretty bipartisan.

    I'm extremely biased as an enthusiast, so I may see a very specific sliver of this, but the 25 year rule - which itself was pretty much imposed by Mercedes-Benz and people already hate - is seen as a pretty overbearing but sacrosanct limit to owning whatever car someone fancies. Further restrictions on it will, and do, tick off a lot of people.

    7 votes