Hi, to folks who watched this and want to help but feel awkward because "oh but she's smiling/laughing along" or "well she hasn't said anything" and you're not sure and don't want to be a...
Exemplary
Hi, to folks who watched this and want to help but feel awkward because "oh but she's smiling/laughing along" or "well she hasn't said anything" and you're not sure and don't want to be a spoilsport stick in the mud:
Go talk to her about it afterwards. Tell her that made YOU uncomfortable. You're not offering to be her saviour, you're not putting words in her mouth, you're not making assumptions about how she feels. YOU feel uncomfortable. Watch her response. If she trusts you: eg, if she hasn't previously seen you laughing along with the guys and if she isn't afraid you are secretly recording her reaction to share later, she might confide in you. If you had laughed, apologize. Even if she says nonono it's fine it was funny. You tell her you don't think it's funny after you thought about it some more. If she wants, the both of you can go to HR together. Or, at least she knows she has merely been sexually harassed again, not harassed with everyone's silent / laughing approval again.
Okay let's pretend she doesn't care. Let's pretend she's a guy's girl and she jokes with the worst and swears like a sailor. What that does do is make the environment much more unsafe for the rest of the women. Or any future women any of these men go on to work with. In that case, take out your phone and record the hilarious moment. Ask them all to explain the funny to you. Just make a record of it. You don't have to go to HR, you don't have to make anyone stop. Just publicly anounce you are making a recording of the very funny joke. You can stash it somewhere and forget about it. And then, if a woman approaches you and asks you to share the recording, please do so. Tell her that made YOU feel uncomfortable. Now she has proof and can stand up for herself if she deems the risks justifiable. Or at least she has a video record of her not feeling insane: one other person felt it wasn't funny.
Or just see it and don't laugh and make eye contact with her and leave the room.
I'm begging you. If you can't Say It, if you can't Sort It Out, please See It. Please feel uncomfortable about it.
Three actionable suggestions with personal stories where mild sexism/harrassment happened to me at work and no one said anything, even/especially the women, when I wish they would have New grad...
Exemplary
Three actionable suggestions with personal stories where mild sexism/harrassment happened to me at work and no one said anything, even/especially the women, when I wish they would have
New grad first job barely out of my teens. The CEO drops in from LA from time to time and he hugs the women. Only the women. He holds on for just a half second too long. I wish one woman or one man would give me heads up when he'll be in town next. They wouldn't have had to say anything about the unwanted hugs from old white man with ultimate authority at my first job, they'd just be making a casual water cooler comment and letting me decide if I want to call in sick. I would have liked that.
I was twenty something, at a firm that's traditionally male dominated. Inappropriate jokes all day every day, but luckily not as often directed at me or mentions me. The most uncomfortable: when I mentioned my partner's birthday is coming up soon and we're going away with some friends that weekend, "what are you getting him?" "Oh I know, does it start with a B and end with a J?" * Laughter . The slightly older than me woman office assistant gets it much worse and she occasionally protests, to deafening roars of even more laughter. Years later I got to know the men more individually, and apparently most of them felt uncomfortable. I wish they could have said something to me: it might have been that I would laugh along with the jokes too if I knew I could give one ally a "could you believe this guy" look and get s sympathetic eye roll.
A small group of employees are at a different city, and the company decided to get one rental car for a man to drive. I wish someone more senior to me would have talked to the manager and said, "hey maybe get a second car for [woman in most senior position] so they don't have to wait around for [man] to drive them back to the hotel, at night" if the manager is being obtuse, replace the names in the square brackets above with "the women" and "a man" and look him in the eye. If they're insisting on one car, let a woman drive.
TLDR:
If you know an occasional drop in harasser will be in town, casually mention around the watercooler they'll be dropping by on X day.
Sometimes, all we need is one person in the room of blue jokes we can make eye contact with, and receive an understanding eye roll
Say something if you are in a senior position and you see a situation where a woman has to wait around and make nice to the man who is in charge of driving her back to her hotel room at night.
This is really good advice, or really reasonable requests. I want to add something I've learned from listening to women's stories about work: It's not just sexual harassment or inappropriate...
This is really good advice, or really reasonable requests.
I want to add something I've learned from listening to women's stories about work: It's not just sexual harassment or inappropriate jokes. Women are treated differently in other ways too. There are different expectations and different stock responses. A lot of times it's subtle and easy to miss.
But as soon as your start looking for it you'll see it everywhere. Which is why
I read this comment last night and it really stuck with me, to the point where I've saved a screenshot of it in my phone. I firmly believe in speaking up when witnessing inappropriate behaviour. I...
I read this comment last night and it really stuck with me, to the point where I've saved a screenshot of it in my phone.
I firmly believe in speaking up when witnessing inappropriate behaviour. I also know that there have been plenty of opportunities where I should have done so and, for one reason or another, didn't. I'm hoping this will remind me (and others) how important it is to push through that uncomfortable feeling and do the right thing, or as you pointed out following up directly with the people affected in the event that we miss that initial opportunity to step in.
Feel free to tag this comment as noise, I just wanted to express how well articulated your advice is. Thanks for sharing.
Not noise at all. You saw the video, you thought about it, you decided to read a woman's words, you thought about it some more, and then you are publicly speaking up to say Yes I will help. This...
Not noise at all. You saw the video, you thought about it, you decided to read a woman's words, you thought about it some more, and then you are publicly speaking up to say Yes I will help. This is Signal. Thank you.
It's a great video and I appreciate her sharing the stories because I know this stuff happens all of the time. But I don't like over-compensating eye-catching retorts like "Yes all men". Maybe I...
It's a great video and I appreciate her sharing the stories because I know this stuff happens all of the time.
But I don't like over-compensating eye-catching retorts like "Yes all men". Maybe I misinterpret, but I thought the idea of "#NotAllMen" (which, to be fair, can often be seen attached to people trying to completely detach themselves from any responsibility in improving the state of the world) means "not all men are sexually harassing/assaulting women". Thus I feel the tag in the title is trying to say "Yes, all men are sexually harassing/assaulting women". I do not agree and resent that. If instead it just means "Yes, all men share in the responsibility to end sexual harassment of women" then I agree. All men will get an opportunity to call someone out on it and should do so.
Well... In my opinion there are three layers to this. First there is what could be thought of as clickbait. You are supposed to think that there will be a woman accusing all men of being rapists...
Well... In my opinion there are three layers to this.
First there is what could be thought of as clickbait. You are supposed to think that there will be a woman accusing all men of being rapists or habitual sexual harassers.
Secondly what she says is that all men have an obligation to see when sexual harassment towards women occur and to speak up about it, since that is required to change the culture.
Thirdly I think it is reasonable to conclude that #YesAllMen take part in sexist culture., depending on how you think about the bystander effect and/or the trolley problem.
I'm not a fan of clickbait, actually I mostly hate it, but I do love me some wittiness, banter and snark. And while this gets close to the line I don't think it crosses it.
(Although it is also reasonable to argue that everything that has the "ha-ha, made you look"-effect is clickbait I often use the old punk-ethos "kick upwards, lick downwards!" to judge these things.)
This is the first time I've seen perimenopause bright up in any kind of tech talk. I wish I had that experience sooner, it would have helped me deal with my bombing in interviews because I...
This is the first time I've seen perimenopause bright up in any kind of tech talk. I wish I had that experience sooner, it would have helped me deal with my bombing in interviews because I couldn't hold a thought in my head for more than 3 seconds. That time period seems to have destroyed the connections with all my contacts that were supposed to help me find my next job.
It's really frustrating that I have no idea whether or not I have hit perimenopause. Because I'm on an implant and so I will have no idea other than I definitely have some of those symptoms... But...
It's really frustrating that I have no idea whether or not I have hit perimenopause. Because I'm on an implant and so I will have no idea other than I definitely have some of those symptoms... But also maybe I'm just tired all the time... Or was that really a night sweat?? Because obviously I'm just overreacting.
It's so frustrating that we barely know anything useful.
I have a hormonal iud that also contains a progestin. My doctor thinks it may have delayed the onset of symptoms, but there’s no way to really know. We all experience it differently. In my case,...
I have a hormonal iud that also contains a progestin. My doctor thinks it may have delayed the onset of symptoms, but there’s no way to really know. We all experience it differently. In my case, it was hot flashes every night and some days. I lost the ability to sleep at all, and had brain fog worse than when I had COVID, leading to my inability to keep a thought in my head more than a few seconds, I couldn’t really hold a conversation much less complete a task. No clue if those things were a cascade or separate symptoms. My hot flashes were apparently mild, but there was no question in my mind what they were once my doctor confirmed I wasn’t sick. The brain fog experience really gave me a ton of empathy for a family member in the early stages of dementia.
If you’re concerned about it, ask for a hormonal blood test during your next doctor visit, my estrogen read 0 when I was in the thick of symptoms. I ended up digging through the /r/perimenopause, which armored me with statistics, scientific papers, and myth busting. Their wiki is incredible and I highly recommend taking a look at it even if it doesn’t apply to you yet, you’ll be ready to go when it does.
None of this was on my radar, I remember my mom bragging 65 that she hadn’t hit menopause, so I figured it would work the same for me and never looked into it. (Yes, she’s the kind of person who brags about something like that.) I’m in my late 40s.
fnulare: Hi, mom! o/ Sorry, just got a twitch-chat urge to wave to your mom, as is customary in the parts of twitch chat that I frequent when a family member or friend is seen on camera.
fnulare: Hi, mom! o/
Sorry, just got a twitch-chat urge to wave to your mom, as is customary in the parts of twitch chat that I frequent when a family member or friend is seen on camera.
Do you know any trans girls? If you do, talk to them about it. They will either be able to tell you all about endocrinology, or point you to someone who can. Stuff that doctors don't know because...
Do you know any trans girls? If you do, talk to them about it. They will either be able to tell you all about endocrinology, or point you to someone who can. Stuff that doctors don't know because it's the dolls doing all the research independently
Not any who have expressed the secret perimenopause knowledge. (I haven't asked so I will, but I have also just realized I hang with more trans masc friends typically in person so I may hit up my...
Not any who have expressed the secret perimenopause knowledge. (I haven't asked so I will, but I have also just realized I hang with more trans masc friends typically in person so I may hit up my online spaces) My problem is more that I have pain and exhaustion and ADHD and overwhelming stress at all times and even knowing the symptoms I can't distinguish them from my current existence. Also the self-doubt and the internal need to press on despite waking up in pain this morning for example. Probably not perimenopause related but much like everything else, must just keep going.
Am I having brain fog due to hormones or due to having yet another logistical caretaking related problem I must manage? Am I not sleeping due to hormones or stress/hyperalertness for my partner being in distress? Do I feel crazy because of some weird institutional politics stabbing me in the back or because my endocrine system hates me? Without a regular menstrual cycle it fucks up the whole thing of even knowing when menopause itself hits.
But like I also have chronic pain whose cause has never been identified and treatment for which I stopped when it wasn't helping but the flare up today is gnarly so I'm rambling a bit. Appreciate the idea, I also have a doc appointment and my doc listens we've had other stuff going on.
PM me because it sounds like you may be going through some of what I went through between everything being dismissed as "perimenopause" and receiving an autoimmune disease diagnosis. Loss of...
PM me because it sounds like you may be going through some of what I went through between everything being dismissed as "perimenopause" and receiving an autoimmune disease diagnosis. Loss of resilience to stress, insomnia, brain fog, joint pain, and depression can be perimenopause symptoms, but perimenopausal age range is the second most common life period for women to develop autoimmune diseases.
It's extremely important to differentiate because perimenopause/menopause symptoms mostly improve over time or with modest treatment. Autoimmune diseases can get devastatingly worse, and estrogen decline degrades joint function on top of that.
Very fair, I'm absolutely bringing it up with my doc, a decade ago we couldn't find anything and it was definitely not peri then, but one of my big frustrations is how nebulous the idea of...
Very fair, I'm absolutely bringing it up with my doc, a decade ago we couldn't find anything and it was definitely not peri then, but one of my big frustrations is how nebulous the idea of perimenopause is. Much like a lot of women's health tbh. (And like how I'm nonbinary and while I do use "nonbinary woman" as a gender label I also don't feel quite right with that and most of all of this is subtly internally invalidating in a way I can't articulate because I can still speak this way and I'm still perceived this way, and also its not a full picture of me and ugh idk random aside)
Follow through is just really hard. And finances are hard. And giving myself permission to take time off is hard. Yay therapy
IANAD - what follows is based on med texts, research papers, and personal experience. See also this BBC Science article. Generally, perimenopausal estrogen decline starts about 4 - 5 years before...
IANAD - what follows is based on med texts, research papers, and personal experience. See also this BBC Science article.
Generally, perimenopausal estrogen decline starts about 4 - 5 years before menopause, and menopause is defined as one year without a period. You can make an educated guess about when that's likely to happen based on your mother's age at menopause, plus a year or two if you've been on hormonal birth control for a long time. [HBC preserves ovarian reserve a little longer than unrestricted ovulation or pregnancies.]. There's a decent menopausal age calculator here that takes this and other relevant factors into account.
As for "nonbinary", I feel more nonbinary without periods, but less genderfluid since I've lost muscle mass, if that makes any sense.
I wish perimenopause was as simple (!) as "going through puberty backwards", but it's a mess of abruptly accelerated aging, stresses from a lifetime of accumulated responsibilities, and aggravated underlying conditions. The best you can do is maintain a healthy lifestyle going into it - exercise, manage weight issues, get good nutrition, don't smoke or drink to excess, and take care of stress/psychological trauma.
The current research on hormone replacement therapy suggests that heart disease and blood clots aren't such high risks as originally thought, and the benefits usually outweigh those risks.
My mom had a hysterectomy pre-menopause and I've been on HBC implants for over a decade and oral/injections before that. So yeah I have absolutely no idea anymore. I checked out the calculator and...
My mom had a hysterectomy pre-menopause and I've been on HBC implants for over a decade and oral/injections before that. So yeah I have absolutely no idea anymore.
I checked out the calculator and it can't handle the total lack of periods from an implant and told me I'm post menopause. So I guess. If I pretend I have regular periods, it puts me at age 52 so I have a decade before menopause and I'm definitely not in peri. Lol. Figures. Poking around the implant makes both hormone tests and typical estimates impossible apparently
It's mostly that talking all about this as women's health combined with the original topic is weirdly internally invalidating in a way that is probably more about my inability to parse my brain into different bits. Tbh sometimes I just poke my gender with a stick, it's not the worst thing.
I hear you - I was born with ovaries, but "woman" or "man" was never a good fit. We could dive down an assortment of rabbit holes about gender, but the common detail is that we're riding the...
I hear you - I was born with ovaries, but "woman" or "man" was never a good fit. We could dive down an assortment of rabbit holes about gender, but the common detail is that we're riding the hormone rollercoaster with no idea when we get off it.
It's miserable that you have no good diagnostic options. There's testing to confirm menopause, but nothing that can determine perimenopause reliably if you're using a progestin-based implant.
There's not really a diagnostic set of symptoms, either. I never had hot flashes or significantly more irregular periods in perimenopause, so it was a guessing game. Even more so because late menopause runs in my family - I wasn't done until age 58.
Yeah there may be something the doc can tell me that's different than the internet. We'll see. Tbh if I'd figured gender out earlier (the stick poking wasn't new but it didn't resolve into its...
Yeah there may be something the doc can tell me that's different than the internet. We'll see.
Tbh if I'd figured gender out earlier (the stick poking wasn't new but it didn't resolve into its current shape until more recently) maybe I'd have a better grasp on it, or maybe I'd feel different about hormones and my body. But mostly I'm just too gender meh to fuck with it for any length of time.
What you say resonates for me quite a bit. It took a long time and several different doctors before I landed on perimenopause being behind some of my ills and some I didn't know were related. I'll...
What you say resonates for me quite a bit. It took a long time and several different doctors before I landed on perimenopause being behind some of my ills and some I didn't know were related. I'll spare you the details but after at least 3 years of symptoms (mostly hair loss) I finally went to see an endocrinologist because I had tested and ruled out other causes. She had me do a blood test for practically everything under the sun (they took at least 8 vials of blood by my count). The vast majority of my results were perfectly "fine" EXCEPT my Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH) levels which were very low (near 0) for a 40 year old woman. AMH isn't exactly an indicator of perimenopause, but it will tell you your "ovarian stock" and it can be sort of an indicator how much time there is left menopause. At that point a lot of things started to click for me.
I was then directed to a gynaecologist you had me do further tests, especially my FSH level at day 3 of my cycle. The results showed I am clearly at perimenopausal levels. Unfortunately blood tests are not considered conclusive, so you have to take into account the test results + symptoms you're dealing with (especially changes over time) and discuss with a competent doctor.
Unfortunately the country I live in is decades behind on HRT and treating perimenopause seriously (as in, they barely give anything until you're actually menopausal and you'll just have to put up with it or take supplements). I'm still on the journey to find a competent medical professional to help me manage the symptoms properly and ensure I have a decent quality of life into my older years.
Happy to PM you with more details on the symptoms and my experience if it's helpful at all. Best of luck in any case, it sucks to have to go through this and I hope you're able to find answers.
Absolutely happy to chat by PM, one of my (clearly many) issues with it all is being on the implant and thus I don't have noticeable cycles (and likely have PCOS but I've been on HBC for so long I...
Absolutely happy to chat by PM, one of my (clearly many) issues with it all is being on the implant and thus I don't have noticeable cycles (and likely have PCOS but I've been on HBC for so long I don't even know) and wouldn't even know how or when to get tested (and to what effective purpose).
I'm in the same spot with hbc and PCOS. What I'd suggest you do is make an appointment with your doctor. Copy down that list and add to it over the next couple of weeks as you wait for your...
I'm in the same spot with hbc and PCOS. What I'd suggest you do is make an appointment with your doctor. Copy down that list and add to it over the next couple of weeks as you wait for your appointment, then bring it with you to the appointment. Include your caregiving responsibilities so that the doctor can get a full picture.
One of the super fun parts of brain fog is that you might not be able to rattle off what's happening on demand, which can harm your ability to get help with it. If that doctor doesn't order a battery of tests or some referrals to other doctors who will, go look at the list of doctors your insurance covers and try someone else. New patient appointments are given more time so they can get a full picture of what's going on.
I keep saying doctor, but my current gp is an [ARNP](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/advanced-practice-registered-nurse) and I adore her.
When I moved to this area, none of the local doctors were accepting new patients. My previous doctor in a city an hour away was part of a wave that quit when that hospital was bought out by United Healthcare. I talked to a friend of mine who is a nurse and she steered me towards a higher degreed nurse because they generally have a lot of experience before they decide to go for an advanced degree. I guess they tend to be really passionate about patient care. I've had a lot of GPs over the years, including 3 that I felt really listened to me, all female, including this one. She also happens to be around my age, so it's likely that some of my health challenges are also her health challenges. I'm still upset that the VA have me a male doctor after asking me if I preferred a male or female doctor, to which I answered female. Why did they even ask?
I don't think you're in the Puget Sound or I'd send you to her.
I am not in Puget Sound, alas. I have a decent doc (Nurse Practitioner) and we even tried to deal with my chronic pain stuff a while ago. She and the rehumatologist took me seriously for the weird...
I am not in Puget Sound, alas. I have a decent doc (Nurse Practitioner) and we even tried to deal with my chronic pain stuff a while ago. She and the rehumatologist took me seriously for the weird inconsistent joint pain, but we didn't find anything and taking gabapentin regularly just made me hurt when it wore off each dose. I saw PT and a pain specialist for some back pain but I balked at epidurals. But it's probably time to address that and everything else.
Difficulty level is that again my stress is high, and am I tired because I'm not sleeping, because of depression or chronic fatigue or peri? So yeah I have an upcoming appointment (because I have finally developed high blood pressure) anyway so I'll try to hit the things with her.
That sucks so much, especially with chronic pain added on top. Do you have support for taking care of your husband? Some areas offer services like a day off every x days with a nurse or other...
I have pain and exhaustion and ADHD and overwhelming stress at all times and even knowing the symptoms I can't distinguish them from my current existence.
That sucks so much, especially with chronic pain added on top.
Do you have support for taking care of your husband? Some areas offer services like a day off every x days with a nurse or other trained person to help out while you're out. They don't just offer it up, you have to either know to ask or have a social worker who does.
Part of me almost wishes that I had worse or at least more consistent pain because I feel like a damn liar saying I have chronic pain. Because it isn't every day/isn't that bad. But it's draining...
Part of me almost wishes that I had worse or at least more consistent pain because I feel like a damn liar saying I have chronic pain. Because it isn't every day/isn't that bad. But it's draining and the back pain has been closer to daily even with the joint pain being more intermittent (weather maybe influencing it) and I know the correct pain level is zero, not "it's fine I can deal " but partner has had almost 20 spine surgeries (and takes heavy pain meds) which also mean I don't want to take anything strong and my pain is nothing in comparison so... It clearly is invalidated
He has a PA through the state Medicaid waiver program (fun fact we can't get married because he'll lose coverage ) for about 30 hours a week, so while I'm at work most days. Due to reasons we lost her for about a week (we love the current PA and I will keep her forever) and that was part of my recent level of barely keeping my shit together. Plus he is full assist to transfer to bed, plus he's got an infection again, plus I need to find where hearing aids don't cost 9k because he has Medicare Medicaid dammit, he should get to hear. All that said, because we have her I don't really get actual "respite." And I'm slowly working my way to a nursing degree by apprenticeship I think.
Anyway yes I have some help, but no family near by and no real break. Stepkid is busy but is visiting to help around the house this weekend. But he doesn't do personal care. And I steal my time in grocery store trips and the like.
I'm so tired. But also like, stuff just needs to happen so I make it happen.
I wish I were nearby so I could help out, that is way too much for one person. Have you spoken with a social worker? They can be an almost magical font of help.
I wish I were nearby so I could help out, that is way too much for one person. Have you spoken with a social worker? They can be an almost magical font of help.
So while my degree is technically in counseling. Guess what my oops I ended up doing non-clinical work for college students job basically is... Unfortunately the past home nursing "case managers"...
So while my degree is technically in counseling. Guess what my oops I ended up doing non-clinical work for college students job basically is...
Unfortunately the past home nursing "case managers" and social workers were unhelpful. My "favorite" was the one who told my partner he needed Jesus and that my partner was lying about me neglecting him and that he needed to be in a nursing home and too trying to protect me. (Previously PCP was also trash. Partner was depressed, because his legs don't work, and life is hard, and he wasn't letting me take care of him, far from me neglecting him. But yeah. )
So yeah, I have a therapist too. And current home nurse is goid (they don't have social work with this agency) It's just gestures everything.
I remember my mother going through menopause when I was about 5 years old. She had a tough time, so I was aware that it could be a big deal. I've gone to naturopathic doctors for a long time, too,...
I remember my mother going through menopause when I was about 5 years old. She had a tough time, so I was aware that it could be a big deal.
I've gone to naturopathic doctors for a long time, too, so when it happened to me, I had quality support. Bio-identical hormones made a big difference. Most visibly (so to speak), I was having hot flashes a few times each day (a "personal summer")... and three days later, they were gone.
I understand that perimenopause or even menopause doesn't affect every person with the setup, but for some folks it really hits like a serious and debilitating health event for a few years....
I understand that perimenopause or even menopause doesn't affect every person with the setup, but for some folks it really hits like a serious and debilitating health event for a few years. Thinking about this from an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense that the most miraculous ability to create complex Life would come with a heavy cost. We have racecars that go zip and we expect it to rightfully fall apart after the race.
I hope more people learn about this phase in some of our lives and more doctors take it seriously enough.
For example, if you had known about this, and you had a good doctor, you might have been able to take a year off as debilitating sick leave, much like how we would allow someone with cancer or liver failure to take some time off, focus on returning to health, instead of burning through references and savings. That, upon returning to workforce , one could be able to say, I had a serious health condition, but I'm better now.
I'm sorry you had that experience alone. That would have been so frightening to me
I appreciate it. I actually didn’t have any idea what was happening until several of my friends had a conversation about it. It’s weird, we’re all span about a decade in age but things got bad for...
I appreciate it. I actually didn’t have any idea what was happening until several of my friends had a conversation about it. It’s weird, we’re all span about a decade in age but things got bad for everyone within a few months. I’m really lucky I ended up with a doctor willing to treat me, one of my friends is on an hmo and won’t take any action.
Jesus fucking Christ. I hadn’t watched this because I have been depressed and I’ve seen that this is long and probably difficult to watch. So this morning I watch and I see that Google added...
Jesus fucking Christ.
I hadn’t watched this because I have been depressed and I’ve seen that this is long and probably difficult to watch. So this morning I watch and I see that Google added Gemini to YouTube and so I get the summary and I see the “rape kit” and go hear her talk about that. I couldn’t watch any more than that.
I’ve got a friend who’s a revolutionary communist. I can totally see why it’s appealing to say “let’s just overthrow the government and get rid of the bad people so we can fix things”. But what do you do when everyone around you is “the bad people”? And worse - what do you do if they are bad and you just don’t know because you haven’t seen them with power yet. From my perspective as a man, maybe that’s why women are getting the short end of the stick; women are perceived as being powerless, thus they are mistreated, to put things lightly.
What I do know is that I’m tired of injustice and wanton cruelty. It feels today that all of the people, organizations, and structures that existed to fight for social justice have died, are dying, are diminished, or are kneecapped in some way or another.
Hey Akir, good job putting your mental health first but still taking the risk for women. If you didn't get to the end, here is how her talk ends: So thank you for Seeing It. And thanks for Saying...
Hey Akir, good job putting your mental health first but still taking the risk for women. If you didn't get to the end, here is how her talk ends:
See it. Say it. Fucking sort your shit out.
So thank you for Seeing It. And thanks for Saying Something here as well. You're right to find this distressing, but I do hope you come away from witnessing us without further harm to yourself. Things are getting better slowly and unevenly, but slowly better all the time. And it can only keep slowly getting better if men like you keep Seeing Us, and coming to speak with us to say "I saw it. Ain't right" like you did here. The third step might be hard and dangerous and not possible every time, but the first two already helps a little. I'm rambling now, but just wanted to say that I see your caring for your mental health, I see you care for women, and thank you for not looking away. This here, where you saw it and you said something, on a public forum? That's part of the structure that still exists and you're already among the helpers.
I'm tired of it, too. But please don't be disheartened. Yes, it's exhausting to have to make the effort all the time. But it pays off.
What I do know is that I’m tired of injustice and wanton cruelty. It feels today that all of the people, organizations, and structures that existed to fight for social justice have died, are dying, are diminished, or are kneecapped in some way or another.
I'm tired of it, too. But please don't be disheartened. Yes, it's exhausting to have to make the effort all the time. But it pays off.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
I do understand why this was posted here, but imo it would fit better in ~society. While Jo Franchetti speaks of her experience as a woman in a male dominated space the same principle applies...
I do understand why this was posted here, but imo it would fit better in ~society.
While Jo Franchetti speaks of her experience as a woman in a male dominated space the same principle applies "every where" for other minority[0] groups.
For real change to happen, individuals of the majority have to step up and brake the culture from their position of relative power.
The principle applies to men speaking up against sexism, cisfolks speaking up against transphobia, white people speaking up against rasism, middle class persons speaking up against classism.
And it is not limited to the work place either.
I think, as a member of many majority identities, the most important part is where she asks me to not wallow in shame (for all the times I failed to speak up) but rather decide to do better next time.
It is not my intention to take the spotlight away from sexism but rather to shine it on the excellent tool Jo gave all of us to fight against all oppressions.
[0] I will use "minority" and "majority" since it is my understanding that those are the accepted terms. Personally I would prefer to use "oppressed" and "oppressor" but I've learned manybfind those too harsh somehow.
Agreed this isn't just a women in tech or broader sexism issue but how we should handle all of these "isms". It may look different in different industries when it comes to different groups, but it...
Agreed this isn't just a women in tech or broader sexism issue but how we should handle all of these "isms". It may look different in different industries when it comes to different groups, but it all falls into the same bucket of speaking up when people are being jerks even unintentionally.
Since the accusation of white knighting is not an unusual way to keep men in check, I'm trying to understand how to communicate the difference in an effective way. Maybe this is a topic better...
Since the accusation of white knighting is not an unusual way to keep men in check, I'm trying to understand how to communicate the difference in an effective way.
Maybe this is a topic better suited for ~life.men? What do you guys say, shall we move over to "our" space to continue the discussion about how to do this and other strategies for seeing and speaking up?
I wish this was presented as what it is - a particular cultural phenomenon in a very particular and relatively small part of the world. When we talk about issues with men and women of, say, South...
I wish this was presented as what it is - a particular cultural phenomenon in a very particular and relatively small part of the world. When we talk about issues with men and women of, say, South Korea, we talk about issues in South Korea. And yet whenever the topic is something specific to the Anglo sphere (like the whole "guys" bit that is completely irrelevant if you're simply speaking another language) it has to be "Men", "Women", "All Men", "All Women". May I recommend #YesAllBritishMen or #YesAllAmericanMen as an alternative?
Anyway, I'm happy to report that in my tiny part of the world things are quite different. Though when our American and British overlords visit, they do seem a tad creepy at times. I do sympathize with those who have to deal with it on a daily basis, thankfully for me it's mostly bullshit corporate emails.
This is fine to say, do you have some data indicating sexual harassment and sexism within tech isn't as much of a problem in your part of the world? Because unfortunately it echos the point she...
This is fine to say, do you have some data indicating sexual harassment and sexism within tech isn't as much of a problem in your part of the world?
Because unfortunately it echos the point she makes about "I never see it" and "my friends wouldn't do that" and the like. And so having something formalized, even qualitatively would help express the point in a less "not our problem, just your problem" sort of way.
The highest gender equality index in the EU and among the highest in the world. Believe it or not, despite having a dick and identifying as such, I actually talk to and form relationships with...
do you have some data indicating sexual harassment and sexism within tech isn't as much of a problem in your part of the world?
The highest gender equality index in the EU and among the highest in the world.
Because unfortunately it echos the point she makes about "I never see it" and "my friends wouldn't do that" and the like.
Believe it or not, despite having a dick and identifying as such, I actually talk to and form relationships with women in my field. I also spent a good deal of my time organizing work functions not unlike the one mentioned in the video. Part of my job was therefore protecting people from any uncouth behavior. Has there ever been inappropriate behavior? Certainly. Has it ever reached anywhere close to what is described in the video? No.
That's why I took issue in the first place. If this was "the awful things I went through", that's one thing. But "basically every single woman goes through this and basically all men are at fault" is such a strong claim, I cannot help but dismiss it as a cultural phenomenon because it does not come anywhere close that has been experienced by any women around me in my entire professional life (in tech).
Bro, I'm sorry, but like, you're part of the problem :c So what you gotta understand is that we learn not to talk to guys about these things. Because most of you tend to dismiss it. Like you're...
Exemplary
Bro, I'm sorry, but like, you're part of the problem :c
it does not come anywhere close that has been experienced by any women around me in my entire professional life (in tech).
So what you gotta understand is that we learn not to talk to guys about these things. Because most of you tend to dismiss it. Like you're doing now. Or, in some cases, the men we tried to confide in used that information against us, or blamed us, or hurt us in some way over it. Your women friends implicitly do not trust you the same way they trust other women.
Also "Yes All Men" does not mean that literally every single man is a rapist, but rather the fact that the incidence is so high that, for women, it may any man in their life (ESPECIALLY the men they try to trust). Aside from all of my own experiences, I have heard so, SO many stories from other girls, from friends, partners, strangers, and family. Fathers teaching their sons to rape, bartenders slipping drugs into drinks as a "favor" to other men, groups of men sexually harassing little girls in public. My own mother was sold by her father as a sex slave. These incidents aren't contained to any one country, because I hear about them from those in every country that I know anyone from, including in the EU. I'm sorry, but wherever you're from isn't some magical land that's defeated sexism.
But, maybe you're legitimately a decent, well meaning dude, and you're just feeling defensive because you feel like you're being lumped in with absolute scum. And if that's the case, then I get it. Like for real for real, I get it. So I have a proposal for you: you do not have to take my word for it. You can test these claims yourself, in one of two ways.
Way number 1: So I've heard, from men and those who used to be seen as men, that sometimes guys will get together in Dude Only Spaces and just... talk about how much they like to hurt women. Like one guy will say he felt up a girl who was passed out drunk, and another guy will talk about beating his wife, or something. And like, laugh about it. It's pretty sickening. So, pretend to be one of those He-Man Woman Hater type dudes, get into one of their little Bro Chats, and find out if that's real. (And if you do hear men admitting to such horrible things, please make them face some sort of consequences for it).
And if you find all of that too distasteful (and good gods above and below, I sure hope you do), there's the second way: Change your gender for a bit. You don't have to take any hormones, just change your pronouns and how you dress to be a touch more feminine for a while. And then watch how the way men treat you changes. Because it is one thing to be aware of these issues, and it is a whole other thing to feel it. Also you may end up liking the changes you make, but even if you don't like it you'll have to have thought about it, and the cis man I know who actually took the time to think about his gender is way better than all the other men I've known.
The point is that people are saying, "This is an issue that hurts most women, most men don't even notice it and dismiss it or become hostile when it's pointed out, so women learn to not bring it...
The point is that people are saying, "This is an issue that hurts most women, most men don't even notice it and dismiss it or become hostile when it's pointed out, so women learn to not bring it up to men," and your response is essentially, "But I notice it! And it's not an issue in my social circle!" Even if that's completely accurate, so what? Lucky you. You're still being extremely dismissive of anyone who isn't in your shoes. Coming into a discussion about women everywhere being hurt and saying that it's actually just, "a particular cultural phenomenon in a very particular and relatively small part of the world" is tone deaf at best. Nobody is helped by you saying that their pain isn't as widespread or bad as they think it is.
I live in one such top rated country. My mom worked for an international pharma conglomerate's country division. Her pay was substantially (about 30%) lower than everyone else's who worked similar...
The highest gender equality index in the EU and among the highest in the world.
I live in one such top rated country.
My mom worked for an international pharma conglomerate's country division. Her pay was substantially (about 30%) lower than everyone else's who worked similar positions, despite the fact that the department she was managing consistently outperformed all others every year, by a lot. After years of this she finally worked up the courage to ask for a raise. Her boss said: 'You already have the highest salary out of all the women in this company'.
Sometimes the best/highest is not even close to good enough.
Gender Disparity and the Glass Ceiling in Europe’s High-Tech Sector: A Case Study of Sweden | The Critical Review of Social Sciences Studies Edit: my Google drive Link to the pdf "the findings...
The highest gender equality index in the EU and among the highest in the world.
"the findings revealed that although Sweden has relatively high levels of female participation in the workforce, there remain forms of vertical and horizontal segregation in the technology sector. Women are underrepresented in executive positions, accounting for only one third of management jobs, and they routinely experience an unadjusted pay difference of around 10% in key technical and leadership areas. Discriminatory recruiting through male dominated networks, "bro-culture" conditions, and the "parental penalty" that endures despite strong welfare systems all contribute to the "glass ceiling." This study finds a "Nordic Paradox," in which long standing organizational biases in technology intensive businesses are concealed by high national equality ratings.". (Emphasis mine)
Believe it or not, despite having a dick and identifying as such, I actually talk to and form relationships with women in my field. I also spent a good deal of my time organizing work functions not unlike the one mentioned in the video. Part of my job was therefore protecting people from any uncouth behavior. Has there ever been inappropriate behavior? Certainly. Has it ever reached anywhere close to what is described in the video? No.
I don't give a damn about your genitals. I didn't accuse you of "not forming relationships" in the field . And as I said, this is why research would be helpful. She also described both extreme examples and persistent "are you here with your husband?" "Are you a designer" "come speak about being a woman not about your work" messages from the broader tech community. The whole range is a problem, not just the extreme end.
I've never experienced this extreme behavior in my current field, but because I served as an assigned advocate for another staff member, I'm aware it happens, even at an institution where my gut would be to say it doesn't. I have experienced much lower levels of harassment in my current job from staff who aren't present any longer, because my dept doesn't tolerate it, but I've been much more protected than other staff by age and now position, and I also have run into it in its most subtle way outside of my department.
That's why I took issue in the first place. If this was "the awful things I went through", that's one thing. But "basically every single woman goes through this and basically all men are at fault" is such a strong claim, I cannot help but dismiss it as a cultural phenomenon because it does not come anywhere close that has been experienced by any women around me in my entire professional life (in tech).
"Basically all men are at fault" misses the point. I know men who don't tolerate sexist comments, don't laugh at sexist jokes and who speak up first when there's an issue. I've also had to personally speak up to even begin to remove men from LARP and gaming spaces who are so well known as problems we (the women/femme folks) all warned each other about them. The men running those spaces didn't think they should or could until I spoke up and said they must. Their "fault" was not seeing the behavior as a problem. The point is that while it's everyone's problem - when the people in power, the people in the space are majority men such as tech - it really lands on not just the leadership but the majority of the literal bodies present to start shutting it down. That means men, particularly in tech, because they're not listening to the women. (And in my experience the worst misogynists will ignore literally everything a woman has to say about their behavior where they will usually listen to men.) So yeah if you tolerate it, it's partially your fault - if not then it isn't you. So why are you mad on the behalf of the people who do tolerate it?
So back to the data:
Research suggests over just the past ten years, regardless of your personal experiences there are still major disparities in pay and leadership opportunities as well as discrimination based on things like motherhood despite much greater equality in leave. That was just the first paper I found in a search.
There were the technicians who would send porn to female colleagues taking calls at an information technology company. One woman said a CEO put his hand between her legs while they watched a blackjack game at a company outing. Another woman said an older male colleague prefaced his compliments by saying he was impressed with her work even though she’s young (she’s in her 30s) and a woman.
One of the most concerning findings in this year’s report is that six in ten women have experienced gender-based discrimination at some point in their careers.
The situation is particularly severe among younger women. Nearly eight in ten women under the age of 26 report having experienced gender-based discrimination during the past year.
The results of this study show that despite efforts to improve gender diversity, there are still significant gaps between corporate strategies and the actual experiences of women in the Swedish IT sector. Organisations face recruitment 3and hiring challenges, including biased job descriptions and difficulties in attracting female talent, compounded by structural barriers that overshadow long-term diversity goals. Female employees report a lack of role models, gender stereotypes and insufficient support, indicating a workplace with unequal opportunities and subtle biases. However, the study also identifies positive strategies, such as increased mentoring and work-life balance policies, that show ways to close these gaps and promote a more inclusive and equitable environment.
This is a low quality paper and shouldn't be cited, even if it probably is directionally correct. The journal is low quality and should have given pause for the article. I did not check any other...
Gender Disparity and the Glass Ceiling in Europe’s High-Tech Sector: A Case Study of Sweden | The Critical Review of Social Sciences Studies
This is a low quality paper and shouldn't be cited, even if it probably is directionally correct. The journal is low quality and should have given pause for the article. I did not check any other listed sources. The video has nothing to do with this comment, so refraining from adding more unless asked to.
I can't speak to the journal, I wasn't impressed by the article but as I said it was literally the first search result. It's also citing a number of other sources, many in a language I can't read....
I can't speak to the journal, I wasn't impressed by the article but as I said it was literally the first search result. It's also citing a number of other sources, many in a language I can't read. As I clearly said, I did my research in ten minutes and found multiple sources pretty much all saying the same thing.
This is thankfully not an academic environment. It works for me as a summary of research that I cannot otherwise access. Considering the context of the conversation, I'm not as worried about the quality of one thing because it's consistent with the pattern.
I'll hold myself to your higher standard if you hold everyone in the conversation to the same one. But I find it a wee bit ironic given the context of this conversation that we're having this particular tangent.
But like, idk, given I'm responding to a post where there was no data cited and a snarky comment about his dick, I just don't think this is a problem.
ETA, an alternative conversation with this person was deleted wherein I was called a liar multiple times and accused of operating in bad faith. I'm mentioning it here because my defenses of myself were deleted as well and thus I am left with just this accusation.
Do you often start conversations by mentioning your dick to women? Such an act seems at odds with the whole progressive and gender-egalitarian ideal you're claiming. Do you also find yourself...
Do you often start conversations by mentioning your dick to women? Such an act seems at odds with the whole progressive and gender-egalitarian ideal you're claiming.
Do you also find yourself telling women that they should contextualize their statements better and more narrowly so that all the men around don't feel as targeted by their statements when they are trying to make a point?
If yes to either of these, I can guarantee you that these relationships you're forming are not as solid as you think.
The woman in the video doesn't present data either, she presents specific experiences of her own and says that every woman in the audience has the same stories. I have more close women friends...
The woman in the video doesn't present data either, she presents specific experiences of her own and says that every woman in the audience has the same stories.
I have more close women friends than men and these are some of the things we talk about, specifically because they are different here, including things like "you have to avoid xxx part of town, especially at night or as a woman, but every town has some bad spots, that doesn't mean it's dangerous as a whole", which I hear from Americans all the time and it does not apply here either. Not nearly all of my friends work in STEM, but some do, off the top of my head specifically as software developers, UX designers and researchers in academia.
Again, I don't want to claim that our culture doesn't have problems with sexism, and maybe there are some bad ones we don't see because we're living in it, but some thing like getting repeated texts saying "Fuck you, you fucking whore. Fuck you" because you rejected a colleague's advances and nobody caring about that, or receiving a "rape kit" with zip ties and ducktape from a secret santa, something like that is not commonplace at all.
Yes, I watched the video. Her personal experience (and the experience of every woman that has shared similar things) is qualitative. But you can't personal experience "I didn't see it" so you do...
Yes, I watched the video.
Her personal experience (and the experience of every woman that has shared similar things) is qualitative. But you can't personal experience "I didn't see it" so you do have to have something a bit more formalized for "I didn't see it." That and data does support that a large percentage of women experience sexual harassment, relatively few report (and some of these experiences wouldn't rise to that level despite being awful), and that doesn't even get into whether something changes after reporting.
"This doesn't happen here" is a claim that requires more evidence given the well documented nature of sexual harassment and discrimination and the like in tech (and in general). At least in my opinion.
I don't know whether you're from the same place they are but I'm hoping for a reply from them.
Yeah, sorry for butting in here, but my issue is you can basically rationalize anything if you come from the assumption that a thing must be similarly bad everywhere and that we're primed to claim...
I'm hoping for a reply from them
Yeah, sorry for butting in here, but my issue is you can basically rationalize anything if you come from the assumption that a thing must be similarly bad everywhere and that we're primed to claim the thing does not exist. If I say it doesn't exist, it can be because I don't see it and women don't trust me enough to tell me (I've been told this in a different thread here on Tildes). If women say it doesn't exist, it can be because they're conditioned, groomed or have internalized misogyny.
I don't work in a corporate tech environment and never have, so from me the the argument isn't see it/don't see it, but many of my friends do or did and when I talk to women about their experiences, I feel like that ought to be enough. What is the alternative? Asking them if they're sure they're not suppressing something or coddling me to not hurt my male ego? I don't think we would stay friends if I did that.
Maybe this is not an unwillingness to see a problem but actually good news?
I'd love for it to be good news, but I have to counterbalance that with experience and my knowledge of general stats regarding sexism and harassment in the workplace globally. I can't research...
I'd love for it to be good news, but I have to counterbalance that with experience and my knowledge of general stats regarding sexism and harassment in the workplace globally. I can't research without asking personal invasive questions.
And that's why I'm genuinely asking for some level of data, not as a "gotcha" but to avoid making assumptions given the concerns you listed
Especially as one of the posts mentioned South Korea. Not as a comparison, but 'we'd be saying South Korean men!' It implies that the Anglosphere is some kind of extreme outlier in harassment and...
Especially as one of the posts mentioned South Korea. Not as a comparison, but 'we'd be saying South Korean men!'
It implies that the Anglosphere is some kind of extreme outlier in harassment and gendered violence. South Korea is one of the least gender equitable societies in the world, and throwing it out there as an example of how to be more precise just seems like Orientalism to me.
My broader point which I think you're making is, if you're going to come into ~life.women saying 'actually, this isn't a problem in my experience', provide qualitative or quantitative data before hitting post. Or even reconsider whether chiming in to say 'this article/video/whatever isn't Logical and Reasonable' will help the conversation, or just turn it into men telling women their experiences are fake again, often through ignorance of how these comments are perceived.
After being on Tildes long enough and seeing the user churn, ignorance isn't an excuse for me. This is one of the two groups where people from without casually post their thoughts on things instead of considering that They Are What The Thing Posted Is About.
I'm tired of seeing twenty comments only for the poster to reluctantly say 'well, I didn't know that' after a bunch of other people have gone to the emotional labor of educating them.
Thank you for sharing your unique experiences. Not many people get to work in cross cultural settings like this, let alone recieve bystander intervention training. In fact I haven't heard of...
So what looked completely fair and equitable to a Swedish man was not what many Swedish women experienced when I spoke up and called it out.
Thank you for sharing your unique experiences. Not many people get to work in cross cultural settings like this, let alone recieve bystander intervention training. In fact I haven't heard of bystander intervention training until just now. I suppose the first step is is attempting to see the world with fresh eyes and be open to the possibility of seeing things one had previously not fully perceived?
Like that gorilla and ball passing video. We've been so trained to ignore the ball passing and to expect the gorilla by now, in a new edition of the video, we all see the gorilla and miss an equally obvious new thing thrown into the video. In fact, knowing about the gorilla makes people tune out even faster and harder.
Perhaps people got trained up to spot butt slaps and rape kit gifts and fuck you you whore messages, and they become blind to any other kinds of harrassment. They don't see it. They get angry when people suggest they couldn't see a different kind of gorilla.
You say in few words what I spend many words trying to say. Good wrods. Edit. I didn't notice that typo and it was unintentional. I am leaving that there as it's a great encapsulation of me...
Perhaps people got trained up to spot butt slaps and rape kit gifts and fuck you you whore messages, and they become blind to any other kinds of harrassment. They don't see it. They get angry when people suggest they couldn't see a different kind of gorilla.
You say in few words what I spend many words trying to say. Good wrods.
Edit. I didn't notice that typo and it was unintentional. I am leaving that there as it's a great encapsulation of me talking/writing naturally, versus going to great effort to trying to get my thoughts together.
Never forget, dear @Chocobean, I am far closer to 'good wrods' than I am to eloquent prose in reality. 😂
I'm always super hesitant to go to life.women and write from my experience as a hwite man, as such I usually only read rather than comment, but I do want to sort of echo (what I think is) the...
I'm always super hesitant to go to life.women and write from my experience as a hwite man, as such I usually only read rather than comment, but I do want to sort of echo (what I think is) the intent behind this post: there are different forms of sexual harassment that apply and those require different approaches.
To which I do not mean to say there's no sexual harassment, but I do think there's a difference in how it presents. I won't even say it happens less, it probably happens in equal amounts, just through different methods that aren't as out in the open.
The stuff mentioned in the video would be a quick way to get yourself fired here and I'd go as far as to say that I can't speak up because I quite frankly don't have the opportunity to do so.
I'm not sure if it's more or less insidious if it happens out in the open or secretly, and I don't pretend to be an authority on that decision whatsoever, but I do think the latter is far more difficult to tackle on a case by case basis. A group of colleagues can be reprimanded or socially policed, secret advances (if not reported) cannot. At least not in my direct spheres of influence.
As always, when speaking in broad terms there is the danger of speaking in absolutes and taking those at face value. So consider these broad terms to be broadly speaking about broad cultural phenomena rather than sweeping true or false statements.
With that in mind I think the video does not work as well here as it might in England or the US. Even if the intent and the CTA is perhaps(/probably) appropriate, it may not reach the intended audience because the attack vector is dissimilar enough.
While I'm first in line to bash on US-cultural imperialism I don't think what you are saying is true. I would urge you to spread the video aggressively among your peers with a note saying...
While I'm first in line to bash on US-cultural imperialism I don't think what you are saying is true.
I would urge you to spread the video aggressively among your peers with a note saying something like.
I saw this presentation and as a swede I thought "this can't be correct", surely we are further along than this.
I know that we in Sweden like to hit us on the chest for how long we have come compared to other countries when it comes to gender-equality, but how far have we actually gotten?
Please share your experiences with me if you want, post them online with #YesAllMen or just know that I will do my best in the future to put a stop to these kinds of behaviours when I see them.
And especially important if you are a man that sees it and calls it, when I don't, I will at least back you up (and perhaps later you can explain it to me).
Let us know how it goes.
Remember that this is a call to action for men and a request that we don't wallow in shame for all the times we failed to speak up but rather that we put our foot down and say "next time I will speak up!"
disclaimer: I'm a swede too, and while I don't work in tech I'm having a hard time believing that the Swedish tech industry is a bubble where there no longer exists sexism and sexual harassment when our society is drenched in it.
Same with "white people" and "black people", where I think it's a bit more obvious implicitly, but many people still seem unaware that whenever those terms are used, it is almost universally about...
Same with "white people" and "black people", where I think it's a bit more obvious implicitly, but many people still seem unaware that whenever those terms are used, it is almost universally about problems specific to the US.
The video is horrifying, especially if it's really true that what she's citing is not an extreme at all and every woman in the audience has the same stories. Like I don't want to pretend we're virtuous, we're not, but that really is not the case here.
Hi, to folks who watched this and want to help but feel awkward because "oh but she's smiling/laughing along" or "well she hasn't said anything" and you're not sure and don't want to be a spoilsport stick in the mud:
Go talk to her about it afterwards. Tell her that made YOU uncomfortable. You're not offering to be her saviour, you're not putting words in her mouth, you're not making assumptions about how she feels. YOU feel uncomfortable. Watch her response. If she trusts you: eg, if she hasn't previously seen you laughing along with the guys and if she isn't afraid you are secretly recording her reaction to share later, she might confide in you. If you had laughed, apologize. Even if she says nonono it's fine it was funny. You tell her you don't think it's funny after you thought about it some more. If she wants, the both of you can go to HR together. Or, at least she knows she has merely been sexually harassed again, not harassed with everyone's silent / laughing approval again.
Okay let's pretend she doesn't care. Let's pretend she's a guy's girl and she jokes with the worst and swears like a sailor. What that does do is make the environment much more unsafe for the rest of the women. Or any future women any of these men go on to work with. In that case, take out your phone and record the hilarious moment. Ask them all to explain the funny to you. Just make a record of it. You don't have to go to HR, you don't have to make anyone stop. Just publicly anounce you are making a recording of the very funny joke. You can stash it somewhere and forget about it. And then, if a woman approaches you and asks you to share the recording, please do so. Tell her that made YOU feel uncomfortable. Now she has proof and can stand up for herself if she deems the risks justifiable. Or at least she has a video record of her not feeling insane: one other person felt it wasn't funny.
Or just see it and don't laugh and make eye contact with her and leave the room.
I'm begging you. If you can't Say It, if you can't Sort It Out, please See It. Please feel uncomfortable about it.
Three actionable suggestions with personal stories where mild sexism/harrassment happened to me at work and no one said anything, even/especially the women, when I wish they would have
New grad first job barely out of my teens. The CEO drops in from LA from time to time and he hugs the women. Only the women. He holds on for just a half second too long. I wish one woman or one man would give me heads up when he'll be in town next. They wouldn't have had to say anything about the unwanted hugs from old white man with ultimate authority at my first job, they'd just be making a casual water cooler comment and letting me decide if I want to call in sick. I would have liked that.
I was twenty something, at a firm that's traditionally male dominated. Inappropriate jokes all day every day, but luckily not as often directed at me or mentions me. The most uncomfortable: when I mentioned my partner's birthday is coming up soon and we're going away with some friends that weekend, "what are you getting him?" "Oh I know, does it start with a B and end with a J?" * Laughter . The slightly older than me woman office assistant gets it much worse and she occasionally protests, to deafening roars of even more laughter. Years later I got to know the men more individually, and apparently most of them felt uncomfortable. I wish they could have said something to me: it might have been that I would laugh along with the jokes too if I knew I could give one ally a "could you believe this guy" look and get s sympathetic eye roll.
A small group of employees are at a different city, and the company decided to get one rental car for a man to drive. I wish someone more senior to me would have talked to the manager and said, "hey maybe get a second car for [woman in most senior position] so they don't have to wait around for [man] to drive them back to the hotel, at night" if the manager is being obtuse, replace the names in the square brackets above with "the women" and "a man" and look him in the eye. If they're insisting on one car, let a woman drive.
TLDR:
If you know an occasional drop in harasser will be in town, casually mention around the watercooler they'll be dropping by on X day.
Sometimes, all we need is one person in the room of blue jokes we can make eye contact with, and receive an understanding eye roll
Say something if you are in a senior position and you see a situation where a woman has to wait around and make nice to the man who is in charge of driving her back to her hotel room at night.
This is really good advice, or really reasonable requests.
I want to add something I've learned from listening to women's stories about work: It's not just sexual harassment or inappropriate jokes. Women are treated differently in other ways too. There are different expectations and different stock responses. A lot of times it's subtle and easy to miss.
But as soon as your start looking for it you'll see it everywhere. Which is why
Is something we should all take to heart.
I read this comment last night and it really stuck with me, to the point where I've saved a screenshot of it in my phone.
I firmly believe in speaking up when witnessing inappropriate behaviour. I also know that there have been plenty of opportunities where I should have done so and, for one reason or another, didn't. I'm hoping this will remind me (and others) how important it is to push through that uncomfortable feeling and do the right thing, or as you pointed out following up directly with the people affected in the event that we miss that initial opportunity to step in.
Feel free to tag this comment as noise, I just wanted to express how well articulated your advice is. Thanks for sharing.
Not noise at all. You saw the video, you thought about it, you decided to read a woman's words, you thought about it some more, and then you are publicly speaking up to say Yes I will help. This is Signal. Thank you.
It's a great video and I appreciate her sharing the stories because I know this stuff happens all of the time.
But I don't like over-compensating eye-catching retorts like "Yes all men". Maybe I misinterpret, but I thought the idea of "#NotAllMen" (which, to be fair, can often be seen attached to people trying to completely detach themselves from any responsibility in improving the state of the world) means "not all men are sexually harassing/assaulting women". Thus I feel the tag in the title is trying to say "Yes, all men are sexually harassing/assaulting women". I do not agree and resent that. If instead it just means "Yes, all men share in the responsibility to end sexual harassment of women" then I agree. All men will get an opportunity to call someone out on it and should do so.
Well... In my opinion there are three layers to this.
First there is what could be thought of as clickbait. You are supposed to think that there will be a woman accusing all men of being rapists or habitual sexual harassers.
Secondly what she says is that all men have an obligation to see when sexual harassment towards women occur and to speak up about it, since that is required to change the culture.
Thirdly I think it is reasonable to conclude that #YesAllMen take part in sexist culture., depending on how you think about the bystander effect and/or the trolley problem.
I'm not a fan of clickbait, actually I mostly hate it, but I do love me some wittiness, banter and snark. And while this gets close to the line I don't think it crosses it.
(Although it is also reasonable to argue that everything that has the "ha-ha, made you look"-effect is clickbait I often use the old punk-ethos "kick upwards, lick downwards!" to judge these things.)
This is the first time I've seen perimenopause bright up in any kind of tech talk. I wish I had that experience sooner, it would have helped me deal with my bombing in interviews because I couldn't hold a thought in my head for more than 3 seconds. That time period seems to have destroyed the connections with all my contacts that were supposed to help me find my next job.
It's really frustrating that I have no idea whether or not I have hit perimenopause. Because I'm on an implant and so I will have no idea other than I definitely have some of those symptoms... But also maybe I'm just tired all the time... Or was that really a night sweat?? Because obviously I'm just overreacting.
It's so frustrating that we barely know anything useful.
I have a hormonal iud that also contains a progestin. My doctor thinks it may have delayed the onset of symptoms, but there’s no way to really know. We all experience it differently. In my case, it was hot flashes every night and some days. I lost the ability to sleep at all, and had brain fog worse than when I had COVID, leading to my inability to keep a thought in my head more than a few seconds, I couldn’t really hold a conversation much less complete a task. No clue if those things were a cascade or separate symptoms. My hot flashes were apparently mild, but there was no question in my mind what they were once my doctor confirmed I wasn’t sick. The brain fog experience really gave me a ton of empathy for a family member in the early stages of dementia.
If you’re concerned about it, ask for a hormonal blood test during your next doctor visit, my estrogen read 0 when I was in the thick of symptoms. I ended up digging through the /r/perimenopause, which armored me with statistics, scientific papers, and myth busting. Their wiki is incredible and I highly recommend taking a look at it even if it doesn’t apply to you yet, you’ll be ready to go when it does.
None of this was on my radar, I remember my mom bragging 65 that she hadn’t hit menopause, so I figured it would work the same for me and never looked into it. (Yes, she’s the kind of person who brags about something like that.) I’m in my late 40s.
fnulare: Hi, mom! o/
Sorry, just got a twitch-chat urge to wave to your mom, as is customary in the parts of twitch chat that I frequent when a family member or friend is seen on camera.
Do you know any trans girls? If you do, talk to them about it. They will either be able to tell you all about endocrinology, or point you to someone who can. Stuff that doctors don't know because it's the dolls doing all the research independently
Not any who have expressed the secret perimenopause knowledge. (I haven't asked so I will, but I have also just realized I hang with more trans masc friends typically in person so I may hit up my online spaces) My problem is more that I have pain and exhaustion and ADHD and overwhelming stress at all times and even knowing the symptoms I can't distinguish them from my current existence. Also the self-doubt and the internal need to press on despite waking up in pain this morning for example. Probably not perimenopause related but much like everything else, must just keep going.
Am I having brain fog due to hormones or due to having yet another logistical caretaking related problem I must manage? Am I not sleeping due to hormones or stress/hyperalertness for my partner being in distress? Do I feel crazy because of some weird institutional politics stabbing me in the back or because my endocrine system hates me? Without a regular menstrual cycle it fucks up the whole thing of even knowing when menopause itself hits.
But like I also have chronic pain whose cause has never been identified and treatment for which I stopped when it wasn't helping but the flare up today is gnarly so I'm rambling a bit. Appreciate the idea, I also have a doc appointment and my doc listens we've had other stuff going on.
PM me because it sounds like you may be going through some of what I went through between everything being dismissed as "perimenopause" and receiving an autoimmune disease diagnosis. Loss of resilience to stress, insomnia, brain fog, joint pain, and depression can be perimenopause symptoms, but perimenopausal age range is the second most common life period for women to develop autoimmune diseases.
It's extremely important to differentiate because perimenopause/menopause symptoms mostly improve over time or with modest treatment. Autoimmune diseases can get devastatingly worse, and estrogen decline degrades joint function on top of that.
Seconding this. Two different women I know had exactly this pattern happen, and assuming it was perimenopause slowed down diagnosis.
Very fair, I'm absolutely bringing it up with my doc, a decade ago we couldn't find anything and it was definitely not peri then, but one of my big frustrations is how nebulous the idea of perimenopause is. Much like a lot of women's health tbh. (And like how I'm nonbinary and while I do use "nonbinary woman" as a gender label I also don't feel quite right with that and most of all of this is subtly internally invalidating in a way I can't articulate because I can still speak this way and I'm still perceived this way, and also its not a full picture of me and ugh idk random aside)
Follow through is just really hard. And finances are hard. And giving myself permission to take time off is hard. Yay therapy
IANAD - what follows is based on med texts, research papers, and personal experience. See also this BBC Science article.
Generally, perimenopausal estrogen decline starts about 4 - 5 years before menopause, and menopause is defined as one year without a period. You can make an educated guess about when that's likely to happen based on your mother's age at menopause, plus a year or two if you've been on hormonal birth control for a long time. [HBC preserves ovarian reserve a little longer than unrestricted ovulation or pregnancies.]. There's a decent menopausal age calculator here that takes this and other relevant factors into account.
As for "nonbinary", I feel more nonbinary without periods, but less genderfluid since I've lost muscle mass, if that makes any sense.
I wish perimenopause was as simple (!) as "going through puberty backwards", but it's a mess of abruptly accelerated aging, stresses from a lifetime of accumulated responsibilities, and aggravated underlying conditions. The best you can do is maintain a healthy lifestyle going into it - exercise, manage weight issues, get good nutrition, don't smoke or drink to excess, and take care of stress/psychological trauma.
The current research on hormone replacement therapy suggests that heart disease and blood clots aren't such high risks as originally thought, and the benefits usually outweigh those risks.
My mom had a hysterectomy pre-menopause and I've been on HBC implants for over a decade and oral/injections before that. So yeah I have absolutely no idea anymore.
I checked out the calculator and it can't handle the total lack of periods from an implant and told me I'm post menopause. So I guess. If I pretend I have regular periods, it puts me at age 52 so I have a decade before menopause and I'm definitely not in peri. Lol. Figures. Poking around the implant makes both hormone tests and typical estimates impossible apparently
It's mostly that talking all about this as women's health combined with the original topic is weirdly internally invalidating in a way that is probably more about my inability to parse my brain into different bits. Tbh sometimes I just poke my gender with a stick, it's not the worst thing.
I hear you - I was born with ovaries, but "woman" or "man" was never a good fit. We could dive down an assortment of rabbit holes about gender, but the common detail is that we're riding the hormone rollercoaster with no idea when we get off it.
It's miserable that you have no good diagnostic options. There's testing to confirm menopause, but nothing that can determine perimenopause reliably if you're using a progestin-based implant.
There's not really a diagnostic set of symptoms, either. I never had hot flashes or significantly more irregular periods in perimenopause, so it was a guessing game. Even more so because late menopause runs in my family - I wasn't done until age 58.
Yeah there may be something the doc can tell me that's different than the internet. We'll see.
Tbh if I'd figured gender out earlier (the stick poking wasn't new but it didn't resolve into its current shape until more recently) maybe I'd have a better grasp on it, or maybe I'd feel different about hormones and my body. But mostly I'm just too gender meh to fuck with it for any length of time.
What you say resonates for me quite a bit. It took a long time and several different doctors before I landed on perimenopause being behind some of my ills and some I didn't know were related. I'll spare you the details but after at least 3 years of symptoms (mostly hair loss) I finally went to see an endocrinologist because I had tested and ruled out other causes. She had me do a blood test for practically everything under the sun (they took at least 8 vials of blood by my count). The vast majority of my results were perfectly "fine" EXCEPT my Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH) levels which were very low (near 0) for a 40 year old woman. AMH isn't exactly an indicator of perimenopause, but it will tell you your "ovarian stock" and it can be sort of an indicator how much time there is left menopause. At that point a lot of things started to click for me.
I was then directed to a gynaecologist you had me do further tests, especially my FSH level at day 3 of my cycle. The results showed I am clearly at perimenopausal levels. Unfortunately blood tests are not considered conclusive, so you have to take into account the test results + symptoms you're dealing with (especially changes over time) and discuss with a competent doctor.
Unfortunately the country I live in is decades behind on HRT and treating perimenopause seriously (as in, they barely give anything until you're actually menopausal and you'll just have to put up with it or take supplements). I'm still on the journey to find a competent medical professional to help me manage the symptoms properly and ensure I have a decent quality of life into my older years.
Happy to PM you with more details on the symptoms and my experience if it's helpful at all. Best of luck in any case, it sucks to have to go through this and I hope you're able to find answers.
Absolutely happy to chat by PM, one of my (clearly many) issues with it all is being on the implant and thus I don't have noticeable cycles (and likely have PCOS but I've been on HBC for so long I don't even know) and wouldn't even know how or when to get tested (and to what effective purpose).
I'm in the same spot with hbc and PCOS. What I'd suggest you do is make an appointment with your doctor. Copy down that list and add to it over the next couple of weeks as you wait for your appointment, then bring it with you to the appointment. Include your caregiving responsibilities so that the doctor can get a full picture.
One of the super fun parts of brain fog is that you might not be able to rattle off what's happening on demand, which can harm your ability to get help with it. If that doctor doesn't order a battery of tests or some referrals to other doctors who will, go look at the list of doctors your insurance covers and try someone else. New patient appointments are given more time so they can get a full picture of what's going on.
I keep saying doctor, but my current gp is an [ARNP](https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/advanced-practice-registered-nurse) and I adore her.
When I moved to this area, none of the local doctors were accepting new patients. My previous doctor in a city an hour away was part of a wave that quit when that hospital was bought out by United Healthcare. I talked to a friend of mine who is a nurse and she steered me towards a higher degreed nurse because they generally have a lot of experience before they decide to go for an advanced degree. I guess they tend to be really passionate about patient care. I've had a lot of GPs over the years, including 3 that I felt really listened to me, all female, including this one. She also happens to be around my age, so it's likely that some of my health challenges are also her health challenges. I'm still upset that the VA have me a male doctor after asking me if I preferred a male or female doctor, to which I answered female. Why did they even ask?
I don't think you're in the Puget Sound or I'd send you to her.
I am not in Puget Sound, alas. I have a decent doc (Nurse Practitioner) and we even tried to deal with my chronic pain stuff a while ago. She and the rehumatologist took me seriously for the weird inconsistent joint pain, but we didn't find anything and taking gabapentin regularly just made me hurt when it wore off each dose. I saw PT and a pain specialist for some back pain but I balked at epidurals. But it's probably time to address that and everything else.
Difficulty level is that again my stress is high, and am I tired because I'm not sleeping, because of depression or chronic fatigue or peri? So yeah I have an upcoming appointment (because I have finally developed high blood pressure) anyway so I'll try to hit the things with her.
That sucks so much, especially with chronic pain added on top.
Do you have support for taking care of your husband? Some areas offer services like a day off every x days with a nurse or other trained person to help out while you're out. They don't just offer it up, you have to either know to ask or have a social worker who does.
Part of me almost wishes that I had worse or at least more consistent pain because I feel like a damn liar saying I have chronic pain. Because it isn't every day/isn't that bad. But it's draining and the back pain has been closer to daily even with the joint pain being more intermittent (weather maybe influencing it) and I know the correct pain level is zero, not "it's fine I can deal " but partner has had almost 20 spine surgeries (and takes heavy pain meds) which also mean I don't want to take anything strong and my pain is nothing in comparison so... It clearly is invalidated
He has a PA through the state Medicaid waiver program (fun fact we can't get married because he'll lose coverage ) for about 30 hours a week, so while I'm at work most days. Due to reasons we lost her for about a week (we love the current PA and I will keep her forever) and that was part of my recent level of barely keeping my shit together. Plus he is full assist to transfer to bed, plus he's got an infection again, plus I need to find where hearing aids don't cost 9k because he has Medicare Medicaid dammit, he should get to hear. All that said, because we have her I don't really get actual "respite." And I'm slowly working my way to a nursing degree by apprenticeship I think.
Anyway yes I have some help, but no family near by and no real break. Stepkid is busy but is visiting to help around the house this weekend. But he doesn't do personal care. And I steal my time in grocery store trips and the like.
I'm so tired. But also like, stuff just needs to happen so I make it happen.
I wish I were nearby so I could help out, that is way too much for one person. Have you spoken with a social worker? They can be an almost magical font of help.
So while my degree is technically in counseling. Guess what my oops I ended up doing non-clinical work for college students job basically is...
Unfortunately the past home nursing "case managers" and social workers were unhelpful. My "favorite" was the one who told my partner he needed Jesus and that my partner was lying about me neglecting him and that he needed to be in a nursing home and too trying to protect me. (Previously PCP was also trash. Partner was depressed, because his legs don't work, and life is hard, and he wasn't letting me take care of him, far from me neglecting him. But yeah. )
So yeah, I have a therapist too. And current home nurse is goid (they don't have social work with this agency) It's just gestures everything.
Hugs
I remember my mother going through menopause when I was about 5 years old. She had a tough time, so I was aware that it could be a big deal.
I've gone to naturopathic doctors for a long time, too, so when it happened to me, I had quality support. Bio-identical hormones made a big difference. Most visibly (so to speak), I was having hot flashes a few times each day (a "personal summer")... and three days later, they were gone.
I understand that perimenopause or even menopause doesn't affect every person with the setup, but for some folks it really hits like a serious and debilitating health event for a few years. Thinking about this from an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense that the most miraculous ability to create complex Life would come with a heavy cost. We have racecars that go zip and we expect it to rightfully fall apart after the race.
I hope more people learn about this phase in some of our lives and more doctors take it seriously enough.
For example, if you had known about this, and you had a good doctor, you might have been able to take a year off as debilitating sick leave, much like how we would allow someone with cancer or liver failure to take some time off, focus on returning to health, instead of burning through references and savings. That, upon returning to workforce , one could be able to say, I had a serious health condition, but I'm better now.
I'm sorry you had that experience alone. That would have been so frightening to me
I appreciate it. I actually didn’t have any idea what was happening until several of my friends had a conversation about it. It’s weird, we’re all span about a decade in age but things got bad for everyone within a few months. I’m really lucky I ended up with a doctor willing to treat me, one of my friends is on an hmo and won’t take any action.
Jesus fucking Christ.
I hadn’t watched this because I have been depressed and I’ve seen that this is long and probably difficult to watch. So this morning I watch and I see that Google added Gemini to YouTube and so I get the summary and I see the “rape kit” and go hear her talk about that. I couldn’t watch any more than that.
I’ve got a friend who’s a revolutionary communist. I can totally see why it’s appealing to say “let’s just overthrow the government and get rid of the bad people so we can fix things”. But what do you do when everyone around you is “the bad people”? And worse - what do you do if they are bad and you just don’t know because you haven’t seen them with power yet. From my perspective as a man, maybe that’s why women are getting the short end of the stick; women are perceived as being powerless, thus they are mistreated, to put things lightly.
What I do know is that I’m tired of injustice and wanton cruelty. It feels today that all of the people, organizations, and structures that existed to fight for social justice have died, are dying, are diminished, or are kneecapped in some way or another.
Hey Akir, good job putting your mental health first but still taking the risk for women. If you didn't get to the end, here is how her talk ends:
So thank you for Seeing It. And thanks for Saying Something here as well. You're right to find this distressing, but I do hope you come away from witnessing us without further harm to yourself. Things are getting better slowly and unevenly, but slowly better all the time. And it can only keep slowly getting better if men like you keep Seeing Us, and coming to speak with us to say "I saw it. Ain't right" like you did here. The third step might be hard and dangerous and not possible every time, but the first two already helps a little. I'm rambling now, but just wanted to say that I see your caring for your mental health, I see you care for women, and thank you for not looking away. This here, where you saw it and you said something, on a public forum? That's part of the structure that still exists and you're already among the helpers.
I'm tired of it, too. But please don't be disheartened. Yes, it's exhausting to have to make the effort all the time. But it pays off.
Thanks for sharing. I listened to the whole talk. Very eloquent and clearly communicated.
I do understand why this was posted here, but imo it would fit better in ~society.
While Jo Franchetti speaks of her experience as a woman in a male dominated space the same principle applies "every where" for other minority[0] groups.
For real change to happen, individuals of the majority have to step up and brake the culture from their position of relative power.
The principle applies to men speaking up against sexism, cisfolks speaking up against transphobia, white people speaking up against rasism, middle class persons speaking up against classism.
And it is not limited to the work place either.
I think, as a member of many majority identities, the most important part is where she asks me to not wallow in shame (for all the times I failed to speak up) but rather decide to do better next time.
It is not my intention to take the spotlight away from sexism but rather to shine it on the excellent tool Jo gave all of us to fight against all oppressions.
[0] I will use "minority" and "majority" since it is my understanding that those are the accepted terms. Personally I would prefer to use "oppressed" and "oppressor" but I've learned manybfind those too harsh somehow.
Agreed this isn't just a women in tech or broader sexism issue but how we should handle all of these "isms". It may look different in different industries when it comes to different groups, but it all falls into the same bucket of speaking up when people are being jerks even unintentionally.
Since the accusation of white knighting is not an unusual way to keep men in check, I'm trying to understand how to communicate the difference in an effective way.
Maybe this is a topic better suited for ~life.men? What do you guys say, shall we move over to "our" space to continue the discussion about how to do this and other strategies for seeing and speaking up?
I think a constructive conversation in ~life.men would be fantastic. Would love you to start one!
I wish this was presented as what it is - a particular cultural phenomenon in a very particular and relatively small part of the world. When we talk about issues with men and women of, say, South Korea, we talk about issues in South Korea. And yet whenever the topic is something specific to the Anglo sphere (like the whole "guys" bit that is completely irrelevant if you're simply speaking another language) it has to be "Men", "Women", "All Men", "All Women". May I recommend #YesAllBritishMen or #YesAllAmericanMen as an alternative?
Anyway, I'm happy to report that in my tiny part of the world things are quite different. Though when our American and British overlords visit, they do seem a tad creepy at times. I do sympathize with those who have to deal with it on a daily basis, thankfully for me it's mostly bullshit corporate emails.
This is fine to say, do you have some data indicating sexual harassment and sexism within tech isn't as much of a problem in your part of the world?
Because unfortunately it echos the point she makes about "I never see it" and "my friends wouldn't do that" and the like. And so having something formalized, even qualitatively would help express the point in a less "not our problem, just your problem" sort of way.
The highest gender equality index in the EU and among the highest in the world.
Believe it or not, despite having a dick and identifying as such, I actually talk to and form relationships with women in my field. I also spent a good deal of my time organizing work functions not unlike the one mentioned in the video. Part of my job was therefore protecting people from any uncouth behavior. Has there ever been inappropriate behavior? Certainly. Has it ever reached anywhere close to what is described in the video? No.
That's why I took issue in the first place. If this was "the awful things I went through", that's one thing. But "basically every single woman goes through this and basically all men are at fault" is such a strong claim, I cannot help but dismiss it as a cultural phenomenon because it does not come anywhere close that has been experienced by any women around me in my entire professional life (in tech).
Bro, I'm sorry, but like, you're part of the problem :c
So what you gotta understand is that we learn not to talk to guys about these things. Because most of you tend to dismiss it. Like you're doing now. Or, in some cases, the men we tried to confide in used that information against us, or blamed us, or hurt us in some way over it. Your women friends implicitly do not trust you the same way they trust other women.
Also "Yes All Men" does not mean that literally every single man is a rapist, but rather the fact that the incidence is so high that, for women, it may any man in their life (ESPECIALLY the men they try to trust). Aside from all of my own experiences, I have heard so, SO many stories from other girls, from friends, partners, strangers, and family. Fathers teaching their sons to rape, bartenders slipping drugs into drinks as a "favor" to other men, groups of men sexually harassing little girls in public. My own mother was sold by her father as a sex slave. These incidents aren't contained to any one country, because I hear about them from those in every country that I know anyone from, including in the EU. I'm sorry, but wherever you're from isn't some magical land that's defeated sexism.
But, maybe you're legitimately a decent, well meaning dude, and you're just feeling defensive because you feel like you're being lumped in with absolute scum. And if that's the case, then I get it. Like for real for real, I get it. So I have a proposal for you: you do not have to take my word for it. You can test these claims yourself, in one of two ways.
Way number 1: So I've heard, from men and those who used to be seen as men, that sometimes guys will get together in Dude Only Spaces and just... talk about how much they like to hurt women. Like one guy will say he felt up a girl who was passed out drunk, and another guy will talk about beating his wife, or something. And like, laugh about it. It's pretty sickening. So, pretend to be one of those He-Man Woman Hater type dudes, get into one of their little Bro Chats, and find out if that's real. (And if you do hear men admitting to such horrible things, please make them face some sort of consequences for it).
And if you find all of that too distasteful (and good gods above and below, I sure hope you do), there's the second way: Change your gender for a bit. You don't have to take any hormones, just change your pronouns and how you dress to be a touch more feminine for a while. And then watch how the way men treat you changes. Because it is one thing to be aware of these issues, and it is a whole other thing to feel it. Also you may end up liking the changes you make, but even if you don't like it you'll have to have thought about it, and the cis man I know who actually took the time to think about his gender is way better than all the other men I've known.
Just, consider all this, ok?
The point is that people are saying, "This is an issue that hurts most women, most men don't even notice it and dismiss it or become hostile when it's pointed out, so women learn to not bring it up to men," and your response is essentially, "But I notice it! And it's not an issue in my social circle!" Even if that's completely accurate, so what? Lucky you. You're still being extremely dismissive of anyone who isn't in your shoes. Coming into a discussion about women everywhere being hurt and saying that it's actually just, "a particular cultural phenomenon in a very particular and relatively small part of the world" is tone deaf at best. Nobody is helped by you saying that their pain isn't as widespread or bad as they think it is.
I live in one such top rated country.
My mom worked for an international pharma conglomerate's country division. Her pay was substantially (about 30%) lower than everyone else's who worked similar positions, despite the fact that the department she was managing consistently outperformed all others every year, by a lot. After years of this she finally worked up the courage to ask for a raise. Her boss said: 'You already have the highest salary out of all the women in this company'.
Sometimes the best/highest is not even close to good enough.
You could even say she's reached the ceiling. And it wasn't obvious until it was pointed out, kind of like a transparent material - glass-like even?
Gender Disparity and the Glass Ceiling in Europe’s High-Tech Sector: A Case Study of Sweden | The Critical Review of Social Sciences Studies
Edit: my Google drive Link to the pdf
"the findings revealed that although Sweden has relatively high levels of female participation in the workforce, there remain forms of vertical and horizontal segregation in the technology sector. Women are underrepresented in executive positions, accounting for only one third of management jobs, and they routinely experience an unadjusted pay difference of around 10% in key technical and leadership areas. Discriminatory recruiting through male dominated networks, "bro-culture" conditions, and the "parental penalty" that endures despite strong welfare systems all contribute to the "glass ceiling." This study finds a "Nordic Paradox," in which long standing organizational biases in technology intensive businesses are concealed by high national equality ratings.". (Emphasis mine)
I don't give a damn about your genitals. I didn't accuse you of "not forming relationships" in the field . And as I said, this is why research would be helpful. She also described both extreme examples and persistent "are you here with your husband?" "Are you a designer" "come speak about being a woman not about your work" messages from the broader tech community. The whole range is a problem, not just the extreme end.
I've never experienced this extreme behavior in my current field, but because I served as an assigned advocate for another staff member, I'm aware it happens, even at an institution where my gut would be to say it doesn't. I have experienced much lower levels of harassment in my current job from staff who aren't present any longer, because my dept doesn't tolerate it, but I've been much more protected than other staff by age and now position, and I also have run into it in its most subtle way outside of my department.
"Basically all men are at fault" misses the point. I know men who don't tolerate sexist comments, don't laugh at sexist jokes and who speak up first when there's an issue. I've also had to personally speak up to even begin to remove men from LARP and gaming spaces who are so well known as problems we (the women/femme folks) all warned each other about them. The men running those spaces didn't think they should or could until I spoke up and said they must. Their "fault" was not seeing the behavior as a problem. The point is that while it's everyone's problem - when the people in power, the people in the space are majority men such as tech - it really lands on not just the leadership but the majority of the literal bodies present to start shutting it down. That means men, particularly in tech, because they're not listening to the women. (And in my experience the worst misogynists will ignore literally everything a woman has to say about their behavior where they will usually listen to men.) So yeah if you tolerate it, it's partially your fault - if not then it isn't you. So why are you mad on the behalf of the people who do tolerate it?
So back to the data:
Research suggests over just the past ten years, regardless of your personal experiences there are still major disparities in pay and leadership opportunities as well as discrimination based on things like motherhood despite much greater equality in leave. That was just the first paper I found in a search.
Here are a few more
Sweden's #Teknisktfel movement exposes sexual harassment in the tech industry - The World from PRX
Release: State of Women in Tech 2026 Report - Women In Tech Sweden
Work continues towards a more equal industry - TechSverige
Pdf alert EXPLORING THE CHALLENGES TO ACHIEVING GENDER DIVERSITY IN SWEDISH IT FIRMS
That was about ten minutes.
This is a low quality paper and shouldn't be cited, even if it probably is directionally correct. The journal is low quality and should have given pause for the article. I did not check any other listed sources. The video has nothing to do with this comment, so refraining from adding more unless asked to.
I can't speak to the journal, I wasn't impressed by the article but as I said it was literally the first search result. It's also citing a number of other sources, many in a language I can't read. As I clearly said, I did my research in ten minutes and found multiple sources pretty much all saying the same thing.
This is thankfully not an academic environment. It works for me as a summary of research that I cannot otherwise access. Considering the context of the conversation, I'm not as worried about the quality of one thing because it's consistent with the pattern.
I'll hold myself to your higher standard if you hold everyone in the conversation to the same one. But I find it a wee bit ironic given the context of this conversation that we're having this particular tangent.
Some more for you to read or not, as you prefer.
Women in the ICT Sector in European Union States: Facing Gender Inequalities - Studia Europejskie - Studies in European Affairs
Overcoming gender bias in the digital economy. Empirical evidence for European countries: Gender, Technology and Development: Vol 26, No 3
Women in AI Sweden Report 2026
But like, idk, given I'm responding to a post where there was no data cited and a snarky comment about his dick, I just don't think this is a problem.
ETA, an alternative conversation with this person was deleted wherein I was called a liar multiple times and accused of operating in bad faith. I'm mentioning it here because my defenses of myself were deleted as well and thus I am left with just this accusation.
Do you often start conversations by mentioning your dick to women? Such an act seems at odds with the whole progressive and gender-egalitarian ideal you're claiming.
Do you also find yourself telling women that they should contextualize their statements better and more narrowly so that all the men around don't feel as targeted by their statements when they are trying to make a point?
If yes to either of these, I can guarantee you that these relationships you're forming are not as solid as you think.
The woman in the video doesn't present data either, she presents specific experiences of her own and says that every woman in the audience has the same stories.
I have more close women friends than men and these are some of the things we talk about, specifically because they are different here, including things like "you have to avoid xxx part of town, especially at night or as a woman, but every town has some bad spots, that doesn't mean it's dangerous as a whole", which I hear from Americans all the time and it does not apply here either. Not nearly all of my friends work in STEM, but some do, off the top of my head specifically as software developers, UX designers and researchers in academia.
Again, I don't want to claim that our culture doesn't have problems with sexism, and maybe there are some bad ones we don't see because we're living in it, but some thing like getting repeated texts saying "Fuck you, you fucking whore. Fuck you" because you rejected a colleague's advances and nobody caring about that, or receiving a "rape kit" with zip ties and ducktape from a secret santa, something like that is not commonplace at all.
Yes, I watched the video.
Her personal experience (and the experience of every woman that has shared similar things) is qualitative. But you can't personal experience "I didn't see it" so you do have to have something a bit more formalized for "I didn't see it." That and data does support that a large percentage of women experience sexual harassment, relatively few report (and some of these experiences wouldn't rise to that level despite being awful), and that doesn't even get into whether something changes after reporting.
"This doesn't happen here" is a claim that requires more evidence given the well documented nature of sexual harassment and discrimination and the like in tech (and in general). At least in my opinion.
I don't know whether you're from the same place they are but I'm hoping for a reply from them.
Yeah, sorry for butting in here, but my issue is you can basically rationalize anything if you come from the assumption that a thing must be similarly bad everywhere and that we're primed to claim the thing does not exist. If I say it doesn't exist, it can be because I don't see it and women don't trust me enough to tell me (I've been told this in a different thread here on Tildes). If women say it doesn't exist, it can be because they're conditioned, groomed or have internalized misogyny.
I don't work in a corporate tech environment and never have, so from me the the argument isn't see it/don't see it, but many of my friends do or did and when I talk to women about their experiences, I feel like that ought to be enough. What is the alternative? Asking them if they're sure they're not suppressing something or coddling me to not hurt my male ego? I don't think we would stay friends if I did that.
Maybe this is not an unwillingness to see a problem but actually good news?
I'd love for it to be good news, but I have to counterbalance that with experience and my knowledge of general stats regarding sexism and harassment in the workplace globally. I can't research without asking personal invasive questions.
And that's why I'm genuinely asking for some level of data, not as a "gotcha" but to avoid making assumptions given the concerns you listed
Especially as one of the posts mentioned South Korea. Not as a comparison, but 'we'd be saying South Korean men!'
It implies that the Anglosphere is some kind of extreme outlier in harassment and gendered violence. South Korea is one of the least gender equitable societies in the world, and throwing it out there as an example of how to be more precise just seems like Orientalism to me.
My broader point which I think you're making is, if you're going to come into ~life.women saying 'actually, this isn't a problem in my experience', provide qualitative or quantitative data before hitting post. Or even reconsider whether chiming in to say 'this article/video/whatever isn't Logical and Reasonable' will help the conversation, or just turn it into men telling women their experiences are fake again, often through ignorance of how these comments are perceived.
After being on Tildes long enough and seeing the user churn, ignorance isn't an excuse for me. This is one of the two groups where people from without casually post their thoughts on things instead of considering that They Are What The Thing Posted Is About.
I'm tired of seeing twenty comments only for the poster to reluctantly say 'well, I didn't know that' after a bunch of other people have gone to the emotional labor of educating them.
This happens over and over and over again.
If interested I linked a bunch of research on women in tech in Sweden below.
Thank you for the immense labour, fae. It's evident to me how lopsided the requirements are for women to be believed. Even in this space.
Thank you for sharing your unique experiences. Not many people get to work in cross cultural settings like this, let alone recieve bystander intervention training. In fact I haven't heard of bystander intervention training until just now. I suppose the first step is is attempting to see the world with fresh eyes and be open to the possibility of seeing things one had previously not fully perceived?
Like that gorilla and ball passing video. We've been so trained to ignore the ball passing and to expect the gorilla by now, in a new edition of the video, we all see the gorilla and miss an equally obvious new thing thrown into the video. In fact, knowing about the gorilla makes people tune out even faster and harder.
Perhaps people got trained up to spot butt slaps and rape kit gifts and fuck you you whore messages, and they become blind to any other kinds of harrassment. They don't see it. They get angry when people suggest they couldn't see a different kind of gorilla.
You say in few words what I spend many words trying to say. Good wrods.
Edit. I didn't notice that typo and it was unintentional. I am leaving that there as it's a great encapsulation of me talking/writing naturally, versus going to great effort to trying to get my thoughts together.
Never forget, dear @Chocobean, I am far closer to 'good wrods' than I am to eloquent prose in reality. 😂
I'm always super hesitant to go to life.women and write from my experience as a hwite man, as such I usually only read rather than comment, but I do want to sort of echo (what I think is) the intent behind this post: there are different forms of sexual harassment that apply and those require different approaches.
To which I do not mean to say there's no sexual harassment, but I do think there's a difference in how it presents. I won't even say it happens less, it probably happens in equal amounts, just through different methods that aren't as out in the open.
The stuff mentioned in the video would be a quick way to get yourself fired here and I'd go as far as to say that I can't speak up because I quite frankly don't have the opportunity to do so.
I'm not sure if it's more or less insidious if it happens out in the open or secretly, and I don't pretend to be an authority on that decision whatsoever, but I do think the latter is far more difficult to tackle on a case by case basis. A group of colleagues can be reprimanded or socially policed, secret advances (if not reported) cannot. At least not in my direct spheres of influence.
As always, when speaking in broad terms there is the danger of speaking in absolutes and taking those at face value. So consider these broad terms to be broadly speaking about broad cultural phenomena rather than sweeping true or false statements.
With that in mind I think the video does not work as well here as it might in England or the US. Even if the intent and the CTA is perhaps(/probably) appropriate, it may not reach the intended audience because the attack vector is dissimilar enough.
While I'm first in line to bash on US-cultural imperialism I don't think what you are saying is true.
I would urge you to spread the video aggressively among your peers with a note saying something like.
Let us know how it goes.
Remember that this is a call to action for men and a request that we don't wallow in shame for all the times we failed to speak up but rather that we put our foot down and say "next time I will speak up!"
disclaimer: I'm a swede too, and while I don't work in tech I'm having a hard time believing that the Swedish tech industry is a bubble where there no longer exists sexism and sexual harassment when our society is drenched in it.
Same with "white people" and "black people", where I think it's a bit more obvious implicitly, but many people still seem unaware that whenever those terms are used, it is almost universally about problems specific to the US.
The video is horrifying, especially if it's really true that what she's citing is not an extreme at all and every woman in the audience has the same stories. Like I don't want to pretend we're virtuous, we're not, but that really is not the case here.