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'The gold rush is over:' Slay the Spire and Darkest Dungeon devs say that big Game Pass and Epic exclusive deals have dried up for indie devs
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- Authors
- Wes Fenlon
- Published
- Mar 28 2024
As a Kickstarter backer for Darkest Dungeon, I guess it's back to the KS model? Yeah, the big names aren't throwing cash around anymore but Balatro exists and was made as a one-man part time job.
Plus, the big names need console movers. Devolver is probably more the stream to be looking for indie publishing money.
Steam next fest looks like a positive for the whole industry.
We're back to demo's rather than pre rendered bullshit videos (not that demo's can't be faked/corner cutting but it's a start), lots of people get to find things, get feed back, see new stuff, and you get lots of "here's the hidden gems" vibe.
Stuff like the "gold rush" for game pass and Epic were ALWAYS marketing things that had no future. There is 0 way Epic would ever continue to do something like that, especially for indy games, and that was obvious from the get go.
positive if you already have funding. Steam Fest doesn't get you off the ground if you need to actually pay your talent.
unless the team is super tiny and in a low COL area, I doubt it. KS are super risky and you will lose ~30% of your fees between the KS cut (5% IIRC) and all the reward incentives you have to put out. Especially if you are promising more game modes in rewards. It just doesn't work too well.
Most KS in fact are more used as adversing in order to get better publisher deals. Because by itself it isn't enough money to get to shipping.
Also the incentives are broken for funding budgets, since (as Pirate Software said) the most effective method of raising money is to target whatever amount will net you a "$PROJECT was funded in under 24 hours!" headline, even if your real min budget is somewhere in the stretch goals.
Kudos for backing DD! I wish I had the chance, love that game.
Not super surprising, imo, considering the way the industry is looking at the moment. Even just seeing PAX East this year was kinda sad :(
Notably enough, I didn't even see this was happening, they're finally gonna show MegaCrit's new game: https://www.pcgamer.com/games/roguelike/some-of-the-biggest-names-in-indie-games-are-teaming-up-to-put-on-a-no-fluff-showcase-of-new-game-announcements/
What's going on PAX east this year? I'm a Prime attendee..... previously an annual Prime attendee, and very curious.
The last year I went was pre COVID I think, and fewer + smaller Triple A booths, no more good swag, but the Pax10 indie booths were still very popular
I feel like this year was definitely even smaller than last year, which was already kinda a post-Covid situation. Major booths weren't there, like TinyBuild, Devolver, or even Discord. I know the Boston Children's Hospital liason for Extra Life, and she was telling me that they pulled funding for conventions too (not as big as the other booths but noteworthy, imo). On the other hand, Larian had a huge booth, which was cool, I got to talk to them.
I'm torn because the AAA booths were what made the convention feel more grand, but I also really enjoyed it when it was mostly indie companies, since my favorite thing to do at PAX is talk to indie developers about their games. It's less fun when the people are representatives/volunteers that don't know as much about the games they're showing off.
Yup. We just had a $12m project cut to be a $10m project at the publishers' request. Then again cut down to $8m, and finally just cancelled. The next few years will not be great for indie game projects.
The fact that games with tens of millions of dollars in budget are considered small indie games these days is honestly a little telling of why the industry is scrambling when venture capital and low interest loans have dried up. I know it goes quick when devs are paid hundreds of millions per year (and rightfully so) but in my head maybe two developers in their bedrooms making their game is what indie is. I'm thinking Aquaria, FEZ, Stardew Valley, Cave Story, hell even the original Minecraft. "Indie" games now seem to have graphics better than anything Valve has released to date. It used to only need story and/or gameplay.
Right? I thought indie meant the developers plus temporary people they hire for porting or for specific aspects.
Untitled Goose Game by House House: four people.
Dwarf Fortress: two brothers.
Baba Is You, Mobile Suit Baba: one guy.
StarDewValley: one guy.
Papers Please: one guy
Cuphead, Undertale, Stanley Parable, The Witness....
I thought indie meant independent, as in, without investor funding or publisher backing or whole team of employees.
Incidentally Slime Rancher is probably not an indie game: 12 people team hired to work 40 hour ethical weeks. I don't know how much it cost to make thought but it looks like it can cost double digit millions.
Indie usually means a smaller team without any support from a publisher. I feel like it'd be useful to have a word specifically for games made by just one or two people, there's certainly something special about those kind of projects. I've sometimes seen indie used to mean the amount of resources development took - when The Witness came out there was a lot of discussion (including from the developer) on wether it counted as an indie game after it's $6 million budget.
Slime Rancher's 12 person team would generally fit most definitions of "indie", I think. Cuphead, Undertale, Stanley Parable, and The Witness all had similar sized teams.
This is absolutely a bizarre example, given that the creator had to remortgage their house to fund development and it has by far the most obvious example of extremely expensive labor costs due to the hand-drawn animation.
Could I ask why Cuphead is an "absolutely bizarre example"?
The Dwarf Fortress brothers finally had to crowd fund due to health concerns; Concerned Ape who made Star Dew Valley had mental and physical health concerns due to the stress involved. And yes CupHead put the devs at financial risk.
I'm not saying and I haven't ever said that that's how indie should be: what I have said is that the alternative, being a studio project with regular financial investment backing, staff, and approached as a product, isn't what I thought is meant by an indie game.
The split right now seems to be Expensive Game ($20m+) vs Less Expensive Game ($1-20m), and I find it weird to call games with staff and a $10 budget independent.
That people should put their lives at risk isn't the point or what makes a game indie, and it's unfortunate that that's often what happens, but I don't understand why Cuphead makes a poor example of an indie game?
Cuphead is an excellent example of an indie game; it's a poor example to use when you're arguing that indie games cannot be expensive or have staff. There are tons of indie games (successful and otherwise) with a scope that doesn't require huge monetary investment or large amounts of labor by more than a single developer or very small team, but Cuphead absolutely is not one of them.
Edit to add: also as a Dwarf Fortress fan, I feel the need to correct you -- the brothers crowdfunding had nothing to do with their health concerns. They crowdfunded the game because they wanted to be able to work on it and release it for free. The Steam release, which costs money, was in response to health concerns bc the income from crowdfunding wasn't sufficient to give them the safety net they needed for themselves and their families (which includes health concerns but also other potential future unexpected expenses I presume).
Morals aside: if an "inidie" game has to take out a large loan, it seems to challenge the sentiment many consider when they hear "indie". Is going to a loan shark or re-financing your house really that much different to finding an investor/publisher in that regard? It means either way that the costs for development are beyond a few people's labor out of the back of a garage.
I think that the loan shark or the bank that provides the HELOC isn't going to expect to have any input into your game in exchange for the money.
True, but that also reflects the state of US's cost of living. A lot of these angel funds are in places like California, and people can be paying $2-3k a month on rent alone. Even not accounting for anything else, 10 people paying $2500 rent in San Fransico need $300k a year. If we take the (now dying) sentiment of 30% costs going to rent, you are paying almost $1m/year for a "moderate"-sized indie team.
And these aren't really crazy salaries. This is 100k/year without taking benefits into account. These are entry level salaries for game devs, not really something you can attract a seasoned veteran with that has a family to care for.
unironically speaking, the rent is too damn high. Fixing the housing prices can do a lot to make it so over half the pay for someone isn't going into paying the landlords.
standards rose, technology and talent needed rose, and prices on indie games barely budged. If you aren't super well established, good luck charging over $20 on a 2D title. Hollow Knight launched at $15, Celeste launched at $20, Undertale launched at $15. If you don't have those really shiny graphics, charging more than $10 compares you to some of the best in the "format".
Sounds like indie needs to go back to being... indie... Not just small game dev studios relying on publishers for millions of dollars in budget. There's a reason indie exists in the first place
Yeah, because many indies of yesteryear nearly killed themselves trying to get their games out, and survivor bias shows us the victors. The Cuphead devs took a 2nd mortgage out on their house to get it over the finish line. Barone quit his job and spent years working 50+ hour work weeks to get out Stardew Valley (pretty much the classic bad decision many indies make). And these are just a few of the public accounts we know of.
There is a reason indie exists in the first place, and I don't think the social capital should be understated from the old ways, for what were technically simpler games in a less saturated market. It's a creative endeavor, and many creatives can definitely work themselves unheathily for "the sake of art".
Wonder why there are publishers on that list of devs?. Gearbox being on there is really...wonder who made the decision? They aint indie...