I think it's important to call attention to some of the data. One third of women are being raped. [1] In the US, the CDC data on sexual violence has similar numbers: Establishing a consent...
I think it's important to call attention to some of the data. One third of women are being raped. [1]
According to the EU's Fundamental Rights Agency, more than half (55%) of women in the European Union have been sexually harassed since they were 15, and one in three (33%) have endured physical and/or sexual violence. (emphasis added)
Over half of women and almost one in three men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes.
One in four women and about one in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape.
(emphasis added)
Establishing a consent requirement in law is a good first step, but much more is needed. A consent requirement in law isn't any better than current law if a victim has no one to report the crime to, if law enforcement doubts whether the crime happened, if the social structure comes together to protect the perpetrator and shun the victim.
The barrier to this is, of course. that it runs counter to established patriarchal systems. In my own experience with conservative (Christian) religious culture and what I have read of other heavily patriarchal cultures, it's common to heavily police the female body to keep the men from thinking impure thoughts. This kind of backwards responsibility is absurd on the face of it -- no matter how well-covered a woman is she can never control or manage the desires of a man who thinks only of his own desire and who sees a woman not as an equal but as an avenue to satisfy that desire. These systems have a long history of holding the victim responsible for the actions of their aggressor, and until we can rethink that, requiring consent will not be enough.
We need a cultural shift that teaches everyone, but especially boys, that they are responsible for managing their own sexual desire. That they have not only the ability but the responsibility to first manage their own sexual and emotional needs, and only then seek mutual sexual contact with a partner. We need a system that makes reporting these crimes safe for the victims, that shelters them from harm when they are financially or socially beholden to their aggressors.
A push back I often see (a lot of this during the MeToo movement) is that such a system makes men vulnerable to being labeled sexual predators because of a "misunderstanding". But I think this is just a stalking horse for the refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions. Especially in the face of the overwhelming disparity in the violence under the current system. It's a "better 50 women get raped than one man be unjustly charged with rape" kind of thinking.
While it's certainly possible for a woman to make a false claim of rape, when the investigation of these crimes becomes routine and well-understood, the boundaries will be clearer for everyone. If that means that men have to wait for sex until they are sure -- really, really sure -- that there is true, uncoerced consent, then so much the better. No system will be perfect when human being are messy and varied, but women undoubtedly and overwhelmingly bear the brunt of the imperfection in the current system, so change is critical if equality is going to be meaningful in our society.
Although this article and the discussion in general is usually framed in terms of men raping women, I do want to acknowledge the wider problem, even if I'm not well-equipped to comment on it. It's important to note that men are raped by both men and women, and that male rape is probably even more under-reported than female rape. We should consider the impact on the LGBTQ+ community as well. My suspicion is that breaking up patriarchal frameworks will help all these victims, but I'd be interested in what others who are more knowledgeable have to say about it.
I just want to take the time to highlight how we interpret, and sometimes inadvertently transform language. I assume your line of 1/3 is referencing the EU statistic on physical and sexual...
Exemplary
I just want to take the time to highlight how we interpret, and sometimes inadvertently transform language.
I think it's important to call attention to some of the data. One third of women are being raped. [1]
and one in three (33%) have endured physical and/or sexual violence. (emphasis added)
I assume your line of 1/3 is referencing the EU statistic on physical and sexual violence. While sexual violence includes rape (and mind you, the definition of sexual violence may differ depending on the reporting body), but can also potentially include things such as groping or public verbal harassment. And not that either of those are OK, but they are different from rape. And even rape, as evidenced in the article, can have different definitions like depending on how you define consent or non-consent.
And that 1/3 statistic also includes physical violence which is a different category altogether that might have some overlap with sexual violence.
In the bigger picture, be mindful of any infographics or distillation-style content you consume, or anything word-of-mouth really. The author may not be trying to mislead you, but may have inadvertently changed a key word or phrase that distorts the original reports/data.
I wanted to put out another take on how we reduce sexual violence. I think a lot of it comes down to how men and women interact in the dating world, and that is the expectation that men pursue women and do the leading when it comes to dating. Of course there are exceptions to this and attempts to subvert this have been attempted(see Bumble), but I think it still holds true and isn't something that has truly been challenged. I think in order to tackle this it needs to be codified in our education system.
We need to revamp our sexual education to be holistic and include dating skills (with hands on lessons). Teaching boys and girls how to ask someone out, read social cues around dating and consent (both physical and verbal), that it's ok to be rejected, and also how to politely turn someone down. I think if everyone were taught hands on knowledge and skills around these, it would reduce the unrealistic beauty standards imposed upon women, decrease the loneliness epidemic (a lot of these skills apply to making and maintaining friendships as an adult), and reduce sexual violence.
The point about language is a good thing to consider, but the violation in rape is centered more in power and domination than it is in sex. It can be just as violating to be held down or forced...
The point about language is a good thing to consider, but the violation in rape is centered more in power and domination than it is in sex. It can be just as violating to be held down or forced even if the sexual act is not achieved. So while the words do matter, I think it would be important not minimize the harm that a victim experiences just because it'd not technically rape.
I like the education angle. I certainly wish someone had talked to me about it when I was a teenager, and that I knew my peers had a common framework to interact under.
I'm not sure how we would address this, so this is just a half-formed thought inspired by your comment, but I find it interesting that we simultaneously say that the only way to solve this is to...
I'm not sure how we would address this, so this is just a half-formed thought inspired by your comment, but I find it interesting that we simultaneously say that the only way to solve this is to teach men to address their sexual needs in a healthy manner while also saying that rape is about power rather than sexual desire.
It superficially feels like they can't both be true and I have a feeling it's because we have some truths to face that we don't currently, widely accept as truths.
To parse this out a little more finely, I'd say: I don't think that teaching men to address their sexual needs in a healthy manner is the only way to fix it, merely one strand among many that...
To parse this out a little more finely, I'd say:
I don't think that teaching men to address their sexual needs in a healthy manner is the only way to fix it, merely one strand among many that would be needed for systematic reform.
I believe the systematic problem is a power problem at its root, and that rape is merely one of the most violent expressions. The subtler ones - the mansplaining, the glass ceiling, the "little woman" – are just as coercive in their own ways (for a microcosm of this, I recommend Labor by Paris Paloma) – death by a thousand cuts rather than one terrible blow.
Maybe I am missing the point you were trying to make, but at least as laid out above, I don't think these things are contradictory or mutually exclusive.
I have a feeling it's because we have some truths to face that we don't currently, widely accept as truths.
One of the ways privilege operates is to insulate itself from the harm done by that privilege. By not seeing the harm, those inside the bubble can continue to benefit from the patterns that caused it. An important step to get out of the bubble is to be willing to sit with an uncomfortable truth. Once the harm is visible, once I finally see, my choices are to retreat into the bubble and double down on the denial or face the fact that I am a part of something that does harm in the world, which is a deeply uncomfortable truth.
It doesn't make me a terrible person, but it does make me part of a terrible system. Since it is a system that is thousands of years old, I'm not going to unravel it by myself. I can only work to limit its effects within my sphere of influence and help other people to see the problem.
When I said rape I was implicitly including attempted rape, which as you quoted, the CDC groups together the for statistics. I more-so wanted to highlight the difference as it affects our...
When I said rape I was implicitly including attempted rape, which as you quoted, the CDC groups together the for statistics. I more-so wanted to highlight the difference as it affects our worldview, and living in a world where 1/3 isn't great for one's mental health. The 1/4 figure, according to the CDC, for rape and attempted rape is still way too high and not much better, but little wins, right?
Power and sense of entitlement of women's bodies absolutely plays into it. I believe other types of sexual violence can arise from misreading signals, or some men believing they're makings someone's day when catcalling, etc. And that doesn't diminish the harm those types of sexual violence inflict, but I believe recognizing the cause of those crimes as being different helps to diagnose how to fix things. Some of those lesser (I hate using that word in this context) crimes could be better eradicated via education and social/cultural changes, as opposed to whatever mechanisms we can use to help eradicate rape.
Maybe "hands on" isn't the best wording for the poster :D That aside, this is one of those "fuck this is obvious why haven't we been doing it for decades" bits of genius. In the US at least part...
We need to revamp our sexual education to be holistic and include dating skills (with hands on lessons). Teaching boys and girls how to ask someone out, read social cues around dating and consent (both physical and verbal), that it's ok to be rejected, and also how to politely turn someone down.
Maybe "hands on" isn't the best wording for the poster :D
That aside, this is one of those "fuck this is obvious why haven't we been doing it for decades" bits of genius.
In the US at least part of the answer to that is: parents go nuts about any sexuality related education. Not all of them, or even the majority, but enough.
Despite that, and all of the other barriers including how badly it would probably be implemented and how cringe kids would therefore find it, I completely support the idea. Sex ed is cringe too, but we should do more of it anyway.
Most kids figure it out as they go and really that's part of the fun, some kids have adults they feel comfortable talking to, but there are more than enough that get no decent guidance to make it an educational priority.
I feel like there's an educational youtube channel/website that should exist in the meantime. Probably already does.
This is part of why the streaming series Sex Education was so great.
In the US (can’t speak for other regions) before this can happen we have to first get to the point where parents consistently discuss sexuality with their children to sufficient depth, because in...
We need a cultural shift that teaches everyone, but especially boys, that they are responsible for managing their own sexual desire. That they have not only the ability but the responsibility to first manage their own sexual and emotional needs, and only then seek mutual sexual contact with a partner.
In the US (can’t speak for other regions) before this can happen we have to first get to the point where parents consistently discuss sexuality with their children to sufficient depth, because in my experience this by and large just does not happen. As a guy, I was given only an extremely rudimentary overview of the topic from my dad (mom didn’t want to participate at all, meaning no female perspective) a couple of times growing up and that was it… both parents were reluctant to bring it up and treated the subject with great trepidation, if I had to guess partially due to religious reasons and partly because they just didn’t know how to, because their parents did the same.
Without that foundation improving the situation on a societal level is going to be a near-impossible uphill battle. There’s no way guys are going to be learning to manage themselves sexually if they’re only being taught the bare mechanics while young (and sometimes, not even that).
I agree this is a big part of the problem. The vacuum created by a lack of information leaves people to learn from movies, books, porn, or word of mouth, and the quality of that information is...
I agree this is a big part of the problem. The vacuum created by a lack of information leaves people to learn from movies, books, porn, or word of mouth, and the quality of that information is wildly hit or miss. If different people have different (distorted) ideas about sex, it's hard to imagine having a meaningful conversation about consent.
Fantastic reply, thank you for sharing. One small note I wish to add- I think there's a few big reasons for this, and perhaps the largest is that people are going to inherently view consequences...
Fantastic reply, thank you for sharing. One small note I wish to add-
A push back I often see (a lot of this during the MeToo movement) is that such a system makes men vulnerable to being labeled sexual predators because of a "misunderstanding"
I think there's a few big reasons for this, and perhaps the largest is that people are going to inherently view consequences through the realm of the existing justice system. In the US, at least, we have a very punitive-focused system of justice - you are penalized for doing the wrong thing. The concept of restorative justice is at most a flicker in the wind; we are generally not concerned about rehabilitating folks, except as something that happens after punishment.
For a shift in patriarchal values to occur, especially on something like rape, I think we fundamentally need to get folks on board for restorative and rehabilitative justice. A major reason for that is that punitive justice is extremely black and white - there are punishments for crimes. To be fair, we have technically built a system that has a slight sliding scale for how much punishment you get and we regularly let folks off with lighter sentences with stipulations like community service (of note there are major problems with who gets less punishment here, but that's a matter of corruption and biases). However, this is a far cry from a system which allows even more possibility. Restorative justice for some of the assaulted women could be as simple as a direct and heart-felt apology. Rehabilitative justice for some may simply include education and exposure to more voices and viewpoints. By moving away from a punitive system, we can allow for a much more diverse response to rape and alleged rape where the response is more tuned to the violation or allegation.
Violations of consent operate on an axis (arguably multiple) where the severity of the violation(s) can be measured. A punitive system of justice can erase those nuances because by it's nature it must operate in a world as close to pure objectivity as possible to minimize unjust punishment. A restorative or rehabilitative system, in contrast, can allow for cases to be presented and for subjectivity to be evaluated and for a outcome to be shaped by that subjectivity because restoration is a subjective experience and rehabilitation is shaped by societal expectation.
I understand completely where you're coming from with restorative justice but I have a very hard time swallowing the idea of "a heartfelt apology" being what justice looks like, especially re...
I understand completely where you're coming from with restorative justice but I have a very hard time swallowing the idea of "a heartfelt apology" being what justice looks like, especially re rape. I don't know what restorative or rehabilitative justice might look like there - I like your idea on educating them about different perspectives - but as a parent to two young girls entering their teen years I have my own perspective. Rape is a vile, evil thing to do to a person, and leaves lasting emotional and physical scars that an apology, no matter how heartfelt, cannot hope to undo or salve. If my children have this happen to them (and statistically, it is likely to happen to them) and all the perpetrator had to endure was to effort to make an apology while we had to work through the trauma of it all... Yikes. That isn't justice.
Restorative justice is focused on centering the needs of the two parties. A heartfelt apology would only be restorative justice in a case where it's what is requested by the party which was...
Restorative justice is focused on centering the needs of the two parties. A heartfelt apology would only be restorative justice in a case where it's what is requested by the party which was harmed. I didn't include any examples, but some of the ones often trot out by folks who are worried about unfair justice include situations such as two folks who have a history of consensual sex having a night which involves non-consensual sex because someone is under the influence of drugs, or coerced to do something sexually they weren't on board with. These are the kinds of situations in which the party which was raped may not want serious punishment from the other party, and are generally looking for either an apology or for a new dynamic to emerge in which consent is more actively sought. I have experienced situations like this as well as situations in which I was raped by a party where I did not have a history of consensual relations with and what restorative justice would look like for me is vastly different because these are measurably different offenses but the punitive system sees them both in the same way. In general, I would suggest reading into restorative justice if you are unfamiliar with the practice.
I didn't explicitly call this out, but I suspect we are also operating on different definitions of what rape is and means, and it's likely centered through a punitive justice system's viewpoint of rape. I am considering any violation of consent which involves sexual penetration as rape. In most punitive justice systems there are lesser forms of rape such as molestation which can still include penetration (putting fingers in someone might not be considered rape in all cases) and gray areas which I think may not be considered here. In order to be inclusive of sex outside of the binary heterosexual scope and to also be inclusive of other sexually charged activities such as kink focused ones, I like to personally include some non-penetrative activities as existing under the rape umbrella (my point was broadly speaking about sexual assault and not confined to rape), but that really only makes sense when we speak in restorative and rehabilitative contexts. I think all of us agree that while it is weird and harmful and shouldn't happen, the punishment for someone who non-consensually inserts their fingers into someone's mouth in a sexual context should be vastly different than someone who violently and forcibly has penetrative sex with someone's penis, vagina, or anus. These kinds of differences are often lost and frankly not navigable in punitive systems.
Thank you for the thorough reply and for expanding more on these topics which I am woefully ignorant on - I'll certainly take some time to address that lapse in my knowledge. I think in reading...
Thank you for the thorough reply and for expanding more on these topics which I am woefully ignorant on - I'll certainly take some time to address that lapse in my knowledge.
I think in reading the replies here I've let my ignorance and misunderstanding get the best of me, as it does many others who are likely in similar situations. I do feel this only highlights the points made about how most people (in the US and likely many other parts of the world) don't really understand different forms of justice than the standard punitive one. It's a trap I have fallen into as easily as anyone else.
No problem at all friend, we're all working towards a better future. Thank you for engaging thoughtfully and being willing to educate and work on yourself - it's a rare and admirable quality to...
No problem at all friend, we're all working towards a better future. Thank you for engaging thoughtfully and being willing to educate and work on yourself - it's a rare and admirable quality to possess💜
They were talking about the full range of SA, not just rape. To rhetorically pair the lightest consequences with the heaviest insult seems like an uncharitable take?
They were talking about the full range of SA, not just rape. To rhetorically pair the lightest consequences with the heaviest insult seems like an uncharitable take?
I think this is a great addition. I assume a rehabilitative framework would include resources for addressing trauma and the underlying pathology? (not sure of the right word). Because many abusers...
I think this is a great addition. I assume a rehabilitative framework would include resources for addressing trauma and the underlying pathology? (not sure of the right word). Because many abusers were themselves abused, this would create an opportunity to break those intergenerational cycles.
Absolutely, I reckon for most abusers the underlying mental health issues from their own trauma (very often SA they also experienced) is at the core of their problematic behavior.
Absolutely, I reckon for most abusers the underlying mental health issues from their own trauma (very often SA they also experienced) is at the core of their problematic behavior.
I feel something that wasn't mentioned yet is the rise of the incel and subsequent hustle bros who captivate their audience with 'returning to a state where women are subservient' (;the tradwife...
I feel something that wasn't mentioned yet is the rise of the incel and subsequent hustle bros who captivate their audience with 'returning to a state where women are subservient' (;the tradwife is a trend that is being sold as something positive). This is very much a counter-movement towards more equality and this makes the progress slow. Even close friends will get easily agitated when I mentioned that almost always it is men who rape women but they felt attacked and wanted to point out that not all men are like that (;but somehow always men, as the saying goes).
As long as there rests a taboo on sexual education and the ownership of one's body and how consent works, I feel there will be resistance for it since there is an indirect power dynamic at play that, in this case, men do not want to give up.
I'm not sure you should immediately discard your friends' feelings about this statement. Yes, you're saying that it's almost always men who rape women, which is true. But they probably feel like...
Even close friends will get easily agitated when I mentioned that almost always it is men who rape women but they felt attacked and wanted to point out that not all men are like that (;but somehow always men, as the saying goes).
I'm not sure you should immediately discard your friends' feelings about this statement. Yes, you're saying that it's almost always men who rape women, which is true. But they probably feel like you're saying most men are rapists, which is why they're pushing back.
I feel something that wasn't mentioned yet is the rise of the incel and subsequent hustle bros who captivate their audience
I feel like a lot of this emerges from two main things:
The propensity for the left (admittedly a bit US centric) to distance themselves from figures that fulfill that stereotypical macho man aesthetic. If you do that, is it any wonder that most of those figures end up alt-right adjacent? One example I have is Andrew Huberman. I've seen him as being described as alt-right adjacent. I used to listen to his podcasts early on and never noticed any political leanings or tendencies. And you can definitely argue that he's a bit of a quack and a charlatan, but I don't think that substantiates linking him with alt-right.
This kind of plays into another thing you said
This is very much a counter-movement towards more equality and this makes the progress slow.
I think this kind of thinking is damaging, and it's a vicious cycle. Any self-help for men gets shunned out of leftist circles from a zero-sum game mentality that improving men's lives must be a net-negative to women's rights. And yes, there's a lot of misogyny in these circles, but I would argue that's by and large a byproduct of reinforcement by pushing these kinds of figures out of leftist circles. And the concept of self-improvement for men doesn't necessarily need to be tied to misogyny, but few on the left are catering to or sympathizing for lonely men, so they are being pushed towards the alt-right. In my head, it's similar to how disenfranchised kids are pushed towards gangs.
The other is the toxic masculinity that sneakily pervades in feminist circles. I'll quote @ButteredToast as an example, who also replied to you. (This is not an attack! We all have our blindspots, and if I have any please point them out to me)
It’s more comfortable and convenient for these men to see the root of this problem as lying in womens’ choice rather than in their own (very fixable) inadequacies
In my eyes, this is essentially telling struggling men to man up and improve themselves, which can be much easier to do than asking why these men are struggling, and what we can do to help them. And it's easy to reduce people to statistics: These men are struggling when men have so many advantages over women, so it must be their fault. I don't think that's a kind, productive, or healthy sentiment. As it can be easy to victim blame women (she was asking for it /s), turns out it can also be easy to victim blame men.
I don’t mind the callout at all, this kind of dialogue is how people grow! My suspicion is that it’s a bit of column A, a bit of column B. Certainly there are men who have made or are making...
In my eyes, this is essentially telling struggling men to man up and improve themselves, which can be much easier to do than asking why these men are struggling, and what we can do to help them. And it's easy to reduce people to statistics: These men are struggling when men have so many advantages over women, so it must be their fault. I don't think that's a kind, productive, or healthy sentiment. As it can be easy to victim blame women (she was asking for it /s), turns out it can also be easy to victim blame men.
I don’t mind the callout at all, this kind of dialogue is how people grow!
My suspicion is that it’s a bit of column A, a bit of column B. Certainly there are men who have made or are making earnest attempts and are struggling and need support, but I believe there are also men (at the risk of being uncharitable) who’ve not put in any effort yet expect a positive result (“I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas”). For these individuals I believe the question is how they ended up in that position — if the environment they were raised in (no positive male role models, for example) made this an inevitability that’s one thing, but if they’ve become bitter and entitled following a negative experience (e.g. rejection) that’s another, and I believe the former group to be more capable of reform if given support while the latter can’t easily be helped without self-initiated introspection.
I have been accused of being overly-charitable before, so it's possible I'm too far in that direction, lol. This is kind of the embedded toxic masculinity I was talking about. What if they're too...
I have been accused of being overly-charitable before, so it's possible I'm too far in that direction, lol.
I believe there are also men (at the risk of being uncharitable) who’ve not put in any effort yet expect a positive result (“I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas”)
This is kind of the embedded toxic masculinity I was talking about. What if they're too depressed to try? What if they have a neurodivergence that makes it difficult for them to plan and execute self-improvement? The assumption is that they have some kind of moral failing, and that they don't deserve any help because they need to "man up".
but if they’ve become bitter and entitled following a negative experience (e.g. rejection) that’s another
Being rejected can be extremely painful. And some people, especially if they're used to unwanted advances, can be callous with how they reject someone, especially if that person expressing interest is socially awkward.
I don't think someone who's given up after being rejected is irredeemable. They probably need therapy. But also probably feel like they're drowning in the ocean. And because self-help for men is shunned by the left, many of the ones that do seek support reach for the nearest thing: a lifeboat filled with misogyny and figures like Andrew Tate.
Those struggling with the challenges posed by neurodivergence or extreme depression shouldn’t be dismissed, for sure, but I’m not convinced they represent a majority of cases. From my biased point...
Those struggling with the challenges posed by neurodivergence or extreme depression shouldn’t be dismissed, for sure, but I’m not convinced they represent a majority of cases. From my biased point of view, it looks like many of the men in this camp are rejecting the basic self-responsibility expected of participants in society and then wondering why they’re not accepted by society (and by extension, women). It’s not lack of “manning up”, but sometimes as simple as basic decency.
Agree that the left needs better support structures and “lighthouse” figures. I stood at the edge of this particular whirlpool once some 13 years ago, and while “guy advice” influencers of that day hadn’t gotten as bad as Tate has, they were on their way. I only just barely dipped my toe in, but remember the videos they posted to YouTube being seductive because they exuded a sort of confidence and certainty that I couldn’t find in myself or those around me. It’s weird how this type of content is posted almost exclusively by the right.
Even with the assumption that they’re “rejecting the basic self-responsibility expected of participants in society,” how do we stop the problem from getting worse? What we’re currently doing...
Even with the assumption that they’re “rejecting the basic self-responsibility expected of participants in society,” how do we stop the problem from getting worse? What we’re currently doing doesn’t seem to be working.
Not sure, unfortunately. Maybe one place to start looking is the difference in how boys and girls are socialized. Women on average don’t seem as likely to have this particular set of problems,...
Not sure, unfortunately. Maybe one place to start looking is the difference in how boys and girls are socialized. Women on average don’t seem as likely to have this particular set of problems, which might have to do with how they're encouraged to have a higher level of social awareness and self-conciousness that helps in understanding the dynamics at play.
I think this is an extremely important bit of misinterpretation that needs to be ironed out. There's a large gulf between "You don't deserve help" and "you cannot receive help if you don't accept...
and that they don't deserve any help because they need to "man up".
I think this is an extremely important bit of misinterpretation that needs to be ironed out. There's a large gulf between "You don't deserve help" and "you cannot receive help if you don't accept it". @ButteredToast said:
the latter can’t easily be helped without self-initiated introspection.
This is true of many groups of people. People with addiction issues, people with neurodivergence issues, and yes, people with ingrained bigotries that harm themselves and the people around them. All of these people deserve help, but none of them can be helped unless they recognize that they have a problem and want to change their behavior. There is nothing anyone can do for them if they don't want help.
This is misleading. Rape is sometimes legally defined in a way that limits it to being performed by people with penises. Much like how marital rape is often specifically excluded from legal...
Even close friends will get easily agitated when I mentioned that almost always it is men who rape women but they felt attacked and wanted to point out that not all men are like that (;but somehow always men, as the saying goes).
This is misleading. Rape is sometimes legally defined in a way that limits it to being performed by people with penises. Much like how marital rape is often specifically excluded from legal definitions of rape, this does not necessarily accord with any coherent definition of rape based on a consent framework. Women absolutely are capable of sexual violence and do commit it, even if it's very often not legally classified as rape. Framing women as uniquely innocent or incapable of evil is an extremely harmful variety of sexism and gender essentialism. Moreover, in this particular context, it discourages victims from coming forward to an extreme degree.
This is extremely important to counter, but I’m at a loss as to how to do so. Part of what allows these hustle bros to sink their claws into the young men is womens’ much-improved ability to...
I feel something that wasn't mentioned yet is the rise of the incel and subsequent hustle bros who captivate their audience with 'returning to a state where women are subservient' (;the tradwife is a trend that is being sold as something positive).
This is extremely important to counter, but I’m at a loss as to how to do so. Part of what allows these hustle bros to sink their claws into the young men is womens’ much-improved ability to choose their partners or decline to be in a sexual relationship at all in developed countries, because that means that some men will end up without partners. It’s more comfortable and convenient for these men to see the root of this problem as lying in womens’ choice rather than in their own (very fixable) inadequacies, which is where the bros get their toehold in. Without a counter in place, the better things are for women, the more room there is for misosgynist “influencers” to thrive.
Of course there’s economic factors at play, too - some men feel slighted by the low ceiling of their earning potential, which puts a hard cap on their appeal as partners, but my gut feeling is that this is a relatively small subset compared to the number with more entitled, less justifiable outlooks. The fix for this group is simple — make every wage good enough to live on and improve worker mobility so people aren’t stuck working entry level jobs for indefinite periods.
Respectfully, I think this is a red herring. I try to steer clear of the incel / toxic masculinity space but from my small exposure, I think the real issue is not that no one is available, but...
because that means that some men will end up without partners
Respectfully, I think this is a red herring. I try to steer clear of the incel / toxic masculinity space but from my small exposure, I think the real issue is not that no one is available, but that these folks have unrealistic expectations that exclude a lot of potential partners.
I think we can put a lot of this down to media and representation. Certainly for me (as a teenager in the 90s in East Texas), the definition of masculinity presented to me was:
"getting the girl" is what makes you a Man, all the rest are immature or un masculine "boys"
the girl has to be the "prettiest / hottest" one; even in situations where the object of pursuit is supposed to be the outcast/nerd/ugly one, the baseline level of conventional attractiveness is unreasonably high
getting the girl to fall for you happens through some kind of feat of physical prowess (winning the game) or violence (besting the bully)
getting the girl to have sex with you involves faking an emotional connection / temporarily refraining from toxic masculine behavior / going through other courtship rituals (that are portrayed as onerous).
All of the emotional and relationship stuff is the stuff the girl is supposed to want. The guy is not supposed to want any of it. His goal is sex as an end unto itself, and that is the sole framework for his interaction with women.
when the truth comes out, she forgives him because really he is a good guy
This quote from The Rock lives rent free in my head and epitomizes the stereotype pretty well. Keep in mind that Nick Cage is the "nerd" in this story.
If these were the role models we were offered, is it any wonder that people have trouble with consent? Or real relationships?
We need movies where the guy doesn't get the girl and that's okay. Or the girl he gets is one he gets because they have a serious and loving relationship, not because he tricked her into having sex. The movie where he sees that being ugly to people has ugly consequences. But I don't think any if those are going to make a Hollywood blockbuster.
Spot on. Of course movies are allowed to be fiction, but there really is a lack of presenting other ways of sexual advancement. It is very often portrayed with the guy doing some sort of pressure...
If these were the role models we were offered, is it any wonder that people have trouble with consent? Or real relationships?
We need movies where the guy doesn't get the girl and that's okay. Or the girl he gets is one he gets because they have a serious and loving relationship, not because he tricked her into having sex. The movie where he sees that being ugly to people has ugly consequences. But I don't think any if those are going to make a Hollywood blockbuster.
Spot on. Of course movies are allowed to be fiction, but there really is a lack of presenting other ways of sexual advancement. It is very often portrayed with the guy doing some sort of pressure or assertion, and the women just accepts it. It would be cool if we could see more depictions of how mutual attraction and consent can also be sexy. Richard Linklater's Before-trilogy is the only "major" movie I can think of right now that sort of does this.
I don't understand the pushbacks against this expressed by the feminists. It seems like they're mostly focused on the fact that this legislation isn't perfect - and it's definitely not, as...
I don't understand the pushbacks against this expressed by the feminists. It seems like they're mostly focused on the fact that this legislation isn't perfect - and it's definitely not, as @first-must-burn explained really well, but it would still be a great first step towards fighting sexual assault.
I think coming from a feminist perspective: consent is hard to prove, and the exact same external factors that could show coercion or duress could equally be applied to a woman saying yes, and...
Exemplary
I think coming from a feminist perspective: consent is hard to prove, and the exact same external factors that could show coercion or duress could equally be applied to a woman saying yes, and from a more inclusive perspective: yes doesn't always mean yes, I think most feminists would say that rape or assault can occur because circumstances changed even after saying yes. So a consent based definition likely won't make rape more prosecutable, or less prevalent.
I think generally, until you can destroy the cultural aspects of sex being something that's seen as gatekept by women, or something that is seen as a woman's value....you can't fix this. You have to fix both male entitlement, and fix gendered cultural roles, I'm not sure anyone's fully done this. I personally fear that we're backsliding as conservative movements gain more steam globally, as well as anti-immigration, meaning that it'll be even more difficult for women to remove themselves from societies that control them, and see them as chattel or breeding stock. That's what really worries me. And not that I want to go into it, but I'm also concerned about the rise of revenge porn, deep fakes, etc that further disproportionately harm women and attack agency they have over their own bodies :/ it's not a very positive time right now for women or women's health
Yeah I can see the concern about saying "they said yes so it was obviously consensual" as a universal truth, but it felt like fishing for a sound bite from a more nuanced argument in this.
Yeah I can see the concern about saying "they said yes so it was obviously consensual" as a universal truth, but it felt like fishing for a sound bite from a more nuanced argument in this.
Is there some way consent could be better recorded before sexual contact than just words, usually between two people with no witnesses? What if it was normalised that each partner recorded the...
Is there some way consent could be better recorded before sexual contact than just words, usually between two people with no witnesses? What if it was normalised that each partner recorded the other consenting before at least the first few sexual encounters in a relationship?
I have been turning this over in my head. It seems like the kind of idea that would be picked up for mockery and outrage by those opposed to change, but also like in theory it would help both those at risk of violence and those concerned about false accusations.
Clearly not a perfect proxy for consent given that could change afterwards. Maybe privacy issues would be too great. There would be cases where any recording would put someone at risk of blackmail. Maybe video is too easily faked to be worthwhile evidence. Anything like this goes against apparent aspirations that sexual activity should be spontaneous, driven by emotions without careful planning and communication.
The problem is there's no way to confirm that a future event involved the appropriate context for the consent. I could be dating someone and be even looking forward to sex with an individual, but...
The problem is there's no way to confirm that a future event involved the appropriate context for the consent. I could be dating someone and be even looking forward to sex with an individual, but they might dose me with a drug and rape me. They could also do something in the bedroom which ultimately becomes a matter of who's story one believes. Or they might say or do something in the future which withdraws said consent.
The best practice is simply to teach people what healthy talks about consent look like and to model consent seeking behavior in the bedroom so that others can be informed and know how to navigate these discussions. None of this solves the problem of justice when force is on the more extreme end (such as violent rape), but it can help to reduce rape which involves coercion or simple miscommunication.
I honestly think that could end up being worse as it opens up for misuse. You record consent and then afterwards break the other persons boundaries or basically assault them, and then have the...
I honestly think that could end up being worse as it opens up for misuse. You record consent and then afterwards break the other persons boundaries or basically assault them, and then have the consent recording to point. Again switching all the blame back to the victim.
This is not something we can solve with 100% accuracy by law, but to me it seems like we are moving in the right direction. I see a big shift just from before and after MeToo. Consent and boundaries is actually being openly talked about and seems to be included in sec education now. My own from 25 years ago was just STD and pregnancy. And recently the law in Denmark on rape changed to a consent based principle, which of course doesn't solve everything over night, it really does seem it has started a cultural shift in the right direction.
I agree, part of consent of that it can be withdrawn at any time. I remember a while back folks were making fun of one of the Scandinavian countries about needing a contract for sex. I doubt this...
I agree, part of consent of that it can be withdrawn at any time.
I remember a while back folks were making fun of one of the Scandinavian countries about needing a contract for sex. I doubt this was exactly what was going on, but the inability to withdraw consent was part of the conversation for those who took it seriously.
I think it's important to call attention to some of the data. One third of women are being raped. [1]
In the US, the CDC data on sexual violence has similar numbers:
Establishing a consent requirement in law is a good first step, but much more is needed. A consent requirement in law isn't any better than current law if a victim has no one to report the crime to, if law enforcement doubts whether the crime happened, if the social structure comes together to protect the perpetrator and shun the victim.
The barrier to this is, of course. that it runs counter to established patriarchal systems. In my own experience with conservative (Christian) religious culture and what I have read of other heavily patriarchal cultures, it's common to heavily police the female body to keep the men from thinking impure thoughts. This kind of backwards responsibility is absurd on the face of it -- no matter how well-covered a woman is she can never control or manage the desires of a man who thinks only of his own desire and who sees a woman not as an equal but as an avenue to satisfy that desire. These systems have a long history of holding the victim responsible for the actions of their aggressor, and until we can rethink that, requiring consent will not be enough.
We need a cultural shift that teaches everyone, but especially boys, that they are responsible for managing their own sexual desire. That they have not only the ability but the responsibility to first manage their own sexual and emotional needs, and only then seek mutual sexual contact with a partner. We need a system that makes reporting these crimes safe for the victims, that shelters them from harm when they are financially or socially beholden to their aggressors.
A push back I often see (a lot of this during the MeToo movement) is that such a system makes men vulnerable to being labeled sexual predators because of a "misunderstanding". But I think this is just a stalking horse for the refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions. Especially in the face of the overwhelming disparity in the violence under the current system. It's a "better 50 women get raped than one man be unjustly charged with rape" kind of thinking.
While it's certainly possible for a woman to make a false claim of rape, when the investigation of these crimes becomes routine and well-understood, the boundaries will be clearer for everyone. If that means that men have to wait for sex until they are sure -- really, really sure -- that there is true, uncoerced consent, then so much the better. No system will be perfect when human being are messy and varied, but women undoubtedly and overwhelmingly bear the brunt of the imperfection in the current system, so change is critical if equality is going to be meaningful in our society.
I just want to take the time to highlight how we interpret, and sometimes inadvertently transform language.
I assume your line of 1/3 is referencing the EU statistic on physical and sexual violence. While sexual violence includes rape (and mind you, the definition of sexual violence may differ depending on the reporting body), but can also potentially include things such as groping or public verbal harassment. And not that either of those are OK, but they are different from rape. And even rape, as evidenced in the article, can have different definitions like depending on how you define consent or non-consent.
And that 1/3 statistic also includes physical violence which is a different category altogether that might have some overlap with sexual violence.
In the bigger picture, be mindful of any infographics or distillation-style content you consume, or anything word-of-mouth really. The author may not be trying to mislead you, but may have inadvertently changed a key word or phrase that distorts the original reports/data.
I wanted to put out another take on how we reduce sexual violence. I think a lot of it comes down to how men and women interact in the dating world, and that is the expectation that men pursue women and do the leading when it comes to dating. Of course there are exceptions to this and attempts to subvert this have been attempted(see Bumble), but I think it still holds true and isn't something that has truly been challenged. I think in order to tackle this it needs to be codified in our education system.
We need to revamp our sexual education to be holistic and include dating skills (with hands on lessons). Teaching boys and girls how to ask someone out, read social cues around dating and consent (both physical and verbal), that it's ok to be rejected, and also how to politely turn someone down. I think if everyone were taught hands on knowledge and skills around these, it would reduce the unrealistic beauty standards imposed upon women, decrease the loneliness epidemic (a lot of these skills apply to making and maintaining friendships as an adult), and reduce sexual violence.
The point about language is a good thing to consider, but the violation in rape is centered more in power and domination than it is in sex. It can be just as violating to be held down or forced even if the sexual act is not achieved. So while the words do matter, I think it would be important not minimize the harm that a victim experiences just because it'd not technically rape.
I like the education angle. I certainly wish someone had talked to me about it when I was a teenager, and that I knew my peers had a common framework to interact under.
I'm not sure how we would address this, so this is just a half-formed thought inspired by your comment, but I find it interesting that we simultaneously say that the only way to solve this is to teach men to address their sexual needs in a healthy manner while also saying that rape is about power rather than sexual desire.
It superficially feels like they can't both be true and I have a feeling it's because we have some truths to face that we don't currently, widely accept as truths.
To parse this out a little more finely, I'd say:
Maybe I am missing the point you were trying to make, but at least as laid out above, I don't think these things are contradictory or mutually exclusive.
One of the ways privilege operates is to insulate itself from the harm done by that privilege. By not seeing the harm, those inside the bubble can continue to benefit from the patterns that caused it. An important step to get out of the bubble is to be willing to sit with an uncomfortable truth. Once the harm is visible, once I finally see, my choices are to retreat into the bubble and double down on the denial or face the fact that I am a part of something that does harm in the world, which is a deeply uncomfortable truth.
It doesn't make me a terrible person, but it does make me part of a terrible system. Since it is a system that is thousands of years old, I'm not going to unravel it by myself. I can only work to limit its effects within my sphere of influence and help other people to see the problem.
Power to get one's personal needs met without putting in the work to receive consent?
When I said rape I was implicitly including attempted rape, which as you quoted, the CDC groups together the for statistics. I more-so wanted to highlight the difference as it affects our worldview, and living in a world where 1/3 isn't great for one's mental health. The 1/4 figure, according to the CDC, for rape and attempted rape is still way too high and not much better, but little wins, right?
Power and sense of entitlement of women's bodies absolutely plays into it. I believe other types of sexual violence can arise from misreading signals, or some men believing they're makings someone's day when catcalling, etc. And that doesn't diminish the harm those types of sexual violence inflict, but I believe recognizing the cause of those crimes as being different helps to diagnose how to fix things. Some of those lesser (I hate using that word in this context) crimes could be better eradicated via education and social/cultural changes, as opposed to whatever mechanisms we can use to help eradicate rape.
Maybe "hands on" isn't the best wording for the poster :D
That aside, this is one of those "fuck this is obvious why haven't we been doing it for decades" bits of genius.
In the US at least part of the answer to that is: parents go nuts about any sexuality related education. Not all of them, or even the majority, but enough.
Despite that, and all of the other barriers including how badly it would probably be implemented and how cringe kids would therefore find it, I completely support the idea. Sex ed is cringe too, but we should do more of it anyway.
Most kids figure it out as they go and really that's part of the fun, some kids have adults they feel comfortable talking to, but there are more than enough that get no decent guidance to make it an educational priority.
I feel like there's an educational youtube channel/website that should exist in the meantime. Probably already does.
This is part of why the streaming series Sex Education was so great.
In the US (can’t speak for other regions) before this can happen we have to first get to the point where parents consistently discuss sexuality with their children to sufficient depth, because in my experience this by and large just does not happen. As a guy, I was given only an extremely rudimentary overview of the topic from my dad (mom didn’t want to participate at all, meaning no female perspective) a couple of times growing up and that was it… both parents were reluctant to bring it up and treated the subject with great trepidation, if I had to guess partially due to religious reasons and partly because they just didn’t know how to, because their parents did the same.
Without that foundation improving the situation on a societal level is going to be a near-impossible uphill battle. There’s no way guys are going to be learning to manage themselves sexually if they’re only being taught the bare mechanics while young (and sometimes, not even that).
I agree this is a big part of the problem. The vacuum created by a lack of information leaves people to learn from movies, books, porn, or word of mouth, and the quality of that information is wildly hit or miss. If different people have different (distorted) ideas about sex, it's hard to imagine having a meaningful conversation about consent.
Fantastic reply, thank you for sharing. One small note I wish to add-
I think there's a few big reasons for this, and perhaps the largest is that people are going to inherently view consequences through the realm of the existing justice system. In the US, at least, we have a very punitive-focused system of justice - you are penalized for doing the wrong thing. The concept of restorative justice is at most a flicker in the wind; we are generally not concerned about rehabilitating folks, except as something that happens after punishment.
For a shift in patriarchal values to occur, especially on something like rape, I think we fundamentally need to get folks on board for restorative and rehabilitative justice. A major reason for that is that punitive justice is extremely black and white - there are punishments for crimes. To be fair, we have technically built a system that has a slight sliding scale for how much punishment you get and we regularly let folks off with lighter sentences with stipulations like community service (of note there are major problems with who gets less punishment here, but that's a matter of corruption and biases). However, this is a far cry from a system which allows even more possibility. Restorative justice for some of the assaulted women could be as simple as a direct and heart-felt apology. Rehabilitative justice for some may simply include education and exposure to more voices and viewpoints. By moving away from a punitive system, we can allow for a much more diverse response to rape and alleged rape where the response is more tuned to the violation or allegation.
Violations of consent operate on an axis (arguably multiple) where the severity of the violation(s) can be measured. A punitive system of justice can erase those nuances because by it's nature it must operate in a world as close to pure objectivity as possible to minimize unjust punishment. A restorative or rehabilitative system, in contrast, can allow for cases to be presented and for subjectivity to be evaluated and for a outcome to be shaped by that subjectivity because restoration is a subjective experience and rehabilitation is shaped by societal expectation.
I understand completely where you're coming from with restorative justice but I have a very hard time swallowing the idea of "a heartfelt apology" being what justice looks like, especially re rape. I don't know what restorative or rehabilitative justice might look like there - I like your idea on educating them about different perspectives - but as a parent to two young girls entering their teen years I have my own perspective. Rape is a vile, evil thing to do to a person, and leaves lasting emotional and physical scars that an apology, no matter how heartfelt, cannot hope to undo or salve. If my children have this happen to them (and statistically, it is likely to happen to them) and all the perpetrator had to endure was to effort to make an apology while we had to work through the trauma of it all... Yikes. That isn't justice.
Restorative justice is focused on centering the needs of the two parties. A heartfelt apology would only be restorative justice in a case where it's what is requested by the party which was harmed. I didn't include any examples, but some of the ones often trot out by folks who are worried about unfair justice include situations such as two folks who have a history of consensual sex having a night which involves non-consensual sex because someone is under the influence of drugs, or coerced to do something sexually they weren't on board with. These are the kinds of situations in which the party which was raped may not want serious punishment from the other party, and are generally looking for either an apology or for a new dynamic to emerge in which consent is more actively sought. I have experienced situations like this as well as situations in which I was raped by a party where I did not have a history of consensual relations with and what restorative justice would look like for me is vastly different because these are measurably different offenses but the punitive system sees them both in the same way. In general, I would suggest reading into restorative justice if you are unfamiliar with the practice.
I didn't explicitly call this out, but I suspect we are also operating on different definitions of what rape is and means, and it's likely centered through a punitive justice system's viewpoint of rape. I am considering any violation of consent which involves sexual penetration as rape. In most punitive justice systems there are lesser forms of rape such as molestation which can still include penetration (putting fingers in someone might not be considered rape in all cases) and gray areas which I think may not be considered here. In order to be inclusive of sex outside of the binary heterosexual scope and to also be inclusive of other sexually charged activities such as kink focused ones, I like to personally include some non-penetrative activities as existing under the rape umbrella (my point was broadly speaking about sexual assault and not confined to rape), but that really only makes sense when we speak in restorative and rehabilitative contexts. I think all of us agree that while it is weird and harmful and shouldn't happen, the punishment for someone who non-consensually inserts their fingers into someone's mouth in a sexual context should be vastly different than someone who violently and forcibly has penetrative sex with someone's penis, vagina, or anus. These kinds of differences are often lost and frankly not navigable in punitive systems.
Thank you for the thorough reply and for expanding more on these topics which I am woefully ignorant on - I'll certainly take some time to address that lapse in my knowledge.
I think in reading the replies here I've let my ignorance and misunderstanding get the best of me, as it does many others who are likely in similar situations. I do feel this only highlights the points made about how most people (in the US and likely many other parts of the world) don't really understand different forms of justice than the standard punitive one. It's a trap I have fallen into as easily as anyone else.
I'll need to reread and reassess.
No problem at all friend, we're all working towards a better future. Thank you for engaging thoughtfully and being willing to educate and work on yourself - it's a rare and admirable quality to possess💜
Interesting post - I've never thought of several aspects of this before.
They were talking about the full range of SA, not just rape. To rhetorically pair the lightest consequences with the heaviest insult seems like an uncharitable take?
My misunderstanding there. Apologies.
I think this is a great addition. I assume a rehabilitative framework would include resources for addressing trauma and the underlying pathology? (not sure of the right word). Because many abusers were themselves abused, this would create an opportunity to break those intergenerational cycles.
Absolutely, I reckon for most abusers the underlying mental health issues from their own trauma (very often SA they also experienced) is at the core of their problematic behavior.
I feel something that wasn't mentioned yet is the rise of the incel and subsequent hustle bros who captivate their audience with 'returning to a state where women are subservient' (;the tradwife is a trend that is being sold as something positive). This is very much a counter-movement towards more equality and this makes the progress slow. Even close friends will get easily agitated when I mentioned that almost always it is men who rape women but they felt attacked and wanted to point out that not all men are like that (;but somehow always men, as the saying goes).
As long as there rests a taboo on sexual education and the ownership of one's body and how consent works, I feel there will be resistance for it since there is an indirect power dynamic at play that, in this case, men do not want to give up.
I'm not sure you should immediately discard your friends' feelings about this statement. Yes, you're saying that it's almost always men who rape women, which is true. But they probably feel like you're saying most men are rapists, which is why they're pushing back.
I feel like a lot of this emerges from two main things:
The propensity for the left (admittedly a bit US centric) to distance themselves from figures that fulfill that stereotypical macho man aesthetic. If you do that, is it any wonder that most of those figures end up alt-right adjacent? One example I have is Andrew Huberman. I've seen him as being described as alt-right adjacent. I used to listen to his podcasts early on and never noticed any political leanings or tendencies. And you can definitely argue that he's a bit of a quack and a charlatan, but I don't think that substantiates linking him with alt-right.
This kind of plays into another thing you said
I think this kind of thinking is damaging, and it's a vicious cycle. Any self-help for men gets shunned out of leftist circles from a zero-sum game mentality that improving men's lives must be a net-negative to women's rights. And yes, there's a lot of misogyny in these circles, but I would argue that's by and large a byproduct of reinforcement by pushing these kinds of figures out of leftist circles. And the concept of self-improvement for men doesn't necessarily need to be tied to misogyny, but few on the left are catering to or sympathizing for lonely men, so they are being pushed towards the alt-right. In my head, it's similar to how disenfranchised kids are pushed towards gangs.
The other is the toxic masculinity that sneakily pervades in feminist circles. I'll quote @ButteredToast as an example, who also replied to you. (This is not an attack! We all have our blindspots, and if I have any please point them out to me)
In my eyes, this is essentially telling struggling men to man up and improve themselves, which can be much easier to do than asking why these men are struggling, and what we can do to help them. And it's easy to reduce people to statistics: These men are struggling when men have so many advantages over women, so it must be their fault. I don't think that's a kind, productive, or healthy sentiment. As it can be easy to victim blame women (she was asking for it /s), turns out it can also be easy to victim blame men.
I don’t mind the callout at all, this kind of dialogue is how people grow!
My suspicion is that it’s a bit of column A, a bit of column B. Certainly there are men who have made or are making earnest attempts and are struggling and need support, but I believe there are also men (at the risk of being uncharitable) who’ve not put in any effort yet expect a positive result (“I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas”). For these individuals I believe the question is how they ended up in that position — if the environment they were raised in (no positive male role models, for example) made this an inevitability that’s one thing, but if they’ve become bitter and entitled following a negative experience (e.g. rejection) that’s another, and I believe the former group to be more capable of reform if given support while the latter can’t easily be helped without self-initiated introspection.
I have been accused of being overly-charitable before, so it's possible I'm too far in that direction, lol.
This is kind of the embedded toxic masculinity I was talking about. What if they're too depressed to try? What if they have a neurodivergence that makes it difficult for them to plan and execute self-improvement? The assumption is that they have some kind of moral failing, and that they don't deserve any help because they need to "man up".
Being rejected can be extremely painful. And some people, especially if they're used to unwanted advances, can be callous with how they reject someone, especially if that person expressing interest is socially awkward.
I don't think someone who's given up after being rejected is irredeemable. They probably need therapy. But also probably feel like they're drowning in the ocean. And because self-help for men is shunned by the left, many of the ones that do seek support reach for the nearest thing: a lifeboat filled with misogyny and figures like Andrew Tate.
Those struggling with the challenges posed by neurodivergence or extreme depression shouldn’t be dismissed, for sure, but I’m not convinced they represent a majority of cases. From my biased point of view, it looks like many of the men in this camp are rejecting the basic self-responsibility expected of participants in society and then wondering why they’re not accepted by society (and by extension, women). It’s not lack of “manning up”, but sometimes as simple as basic decency.
Agree that the left needs better support structures and “lighthouse” figures. I stood at the edge of this particular whirlpool once some 13 years ago, and while “guy advice” influencers of that day hadn’t gotten as bad as Tate has, they were on their way. I only just barely dipped my toe in, but remember the videos they posted to YouTube being seductive because they exuded a sort of confidence and certainty that I couldn’t find in myself or those around me. It’s weird how this type of content is posted almost exclusively by the right.
Even with the assumption that they’re “rejecting the basic self-responsibility expected of participants in society,” how do we stop the problem from getting worse? What we’re currently doing doesn’t seem to be working.
Not sure, unfortunately. Maybe one place to start looking is the difference in how boys and girls are socialized. Women on average don’t seem as likely to have this particular set of problems, which might have to do with how they're encouraged to have a higher level of social awareness and self-conciousness that helps in understanding the dynamics at play.
I think this is an extremely important bit of misinterpretation that needs to be ironed out. There's a large gulf between "You don't deserve help" and "you cannot receive help if you don't accept it". @ButteredToast said:
This is true of many groups of people. People with addiction issues, people with neurodivergence issues, and yes, people with ingrained bigotries that harm themselves and the people around them. All of these people deserve help, but none of them can be helped unless they recognize that they have a problem and want to change their behavior. There is nothing anyone can do for them if they don't want help.
This is misleading. Rape is sometimes legally defined in a way that limits it to being performed by people with penises. Much like how marital rape is often specifically excluded from legal definitions of rape, this does not necessarily accord with any coherent definition of rape based on a consent framework. Women absolutely are capable of sexual violence and do commit it, even if it's very often not legally classified as rape. Framing women as uniquely innocent or incapable of evil is an extremely harmful variety of sexism and gender essentialism. Moreover, in this particular context, it discourages victims from coming forward to an extreme degree.
I totally agree that women aren't excluded from committing rape. Never did I intentionally frame them as innocent.
This is extremely important to counter, but I’m at a loss as to how to do so. Part of what allows these hustle bros to sink their claws into the young men is womens’ much-improved ability to choose their partners or decline to be in a sexual relationship at all in developed countries, because that means that some men will end up without partners. It’s more comfortable and convenient for these men to see the root of this problem as lying in womens’ choice rather than in their own (very fixable) inadequacies, which is where the bros get their toehold in. Without a counter in place, the better things are for women, the more room there is for misosgynist “influencers” to thrive.
Of course there’s economic factors at play, too - some men feel slighted by the low ceiling of their earning potential, which puts a hard cap on their appeal as partners, but my gut feeling is that this is a relatively small subset compared to the number with more entitled, less justifiable outlooks. The fix for this group is simple — make every wage good enough to live on and improve worker mobility so people aren’t stuck working entry level jobs for indefinite periods.
Respectfully, I think this is a red herring. I try to steer clear of the incel / toxic masculinity space but from my small exposure, I think the real issue is not that no one is available, but that these folks have unrealistic expectations that exclude a lot of potential partners.
I think we can put a lot of this down to media and representation. Certainly for me (as a teenager in the 90s in East Texas), the definition of masculinity presented to me was:
This quote from The Rock lives rent free in my head and epitomizes the stereotype pretty well. Keep in mind that Nick Cage is the "nerd" in this story.
If these were the role models we were offered, is it any wonder that people have trouble with consent? Or real relationships?
We need movies where the guy doesn't get the girl and that's okay. Or the girl he gets is one he gets because they have a serious and loving relationship, not because he tricked her into having sex. The movie where he sees that being ugly to people has ugly consequences. But I don't think any if those are going to make a Hollywood blockbuster.
Spot on. Of course movies are allowed to be fiction, but there really is a lack of presenting other ways of sexual advancement. It is very often portrayed with the guy doing some sort of pressure or assertion, and the women just accepts it. It would be cool if we could see more depictions of how mutual attraction and consent can also be sexy. Richard Linklater's Before-trilogy is the only "major" movie I can think of right now that sort of does this.
I don't understand the pushbacks against this expressed by the feminists. It seems like they're mostly focused on the fact that this legislation isn't perfect - and it's definitely not, as @first-must-burn explained really well, but it would still be a great first step towards fighting sexual assault.
I think coming from a feminist perspective: consent is hard to prove, and the exact same external factors that could show coercion or duress could equally be applied to a woman saying yes, and from a more inclusive perspective: yes doesn't always mean yes, I think most feminists would say that rape or assault can occur because circumstances changed even after saying yes. So a consent based definition likely won't make rape more prosecutable, or less prevalent.
I think generally, until you can destroy the cultural aspects of sex being something that's seen as gatekept by women, or something that is seen as a woman's value....you can't fix this. You have to fix both male entitlement, and fix gendered cultural roles, I'm not sure anyone's fully done this. I personally fear that we're backsliding as conservative movements gain more steam globally, as well as anti-immigration, meaning that it'll be even more difficult for women to remove themselves from societies that control them, and see them as chattel or breeding stock. That's what really worries me. And not that I want to go into it, but I'm also concerned about the rise of revenge porn, deep fakes, etc that further disproportionately harm women and attack agency they have over their own bodies :/ it's not a very positive time right now for women or women's health
Yeah I can see the concern about saying "they said yes so it was obviously consensual" as a universal truth, but it felt like fishing for a sound bite from a more nuanced argument in this.
Is there some way consent could be better recorded before sexual contact than just words, usually between two people with no witnesses? What if it was normalised that each partner recorded the other consenting before at least the first few sexual encounters in a relationship?
I have been turning this over in my head. It seems like the kind of idea that would be picked up for mockery and outrage by those opposed to change, but also like in theory it would help both those at risk of violence and those concerned about false accusations.
Clearly not a perfect proxy for consent given that could change afterwards. Maybe privacy issues would be too great. There would be cases where any recording would put someone at risk of blackmail. Maybe video is too easily faked to be worthwhile evidence. Anything like this goes against apparent aspirations that sexual activity should be spontaneous, driven by emotions without careful planning and communication.
The problem is there's no way to confirm that a future event involved the appropriate context for the consent. I could be dating someone and be even looking forward to sex with an individual, but they might dose me with a drug and rape me. They could also do something in the bedroom which ultimately becomes a matter of who's story one believes. Or they might say or do something in the future which withdraws said consent.
The best practice is simply to teach people what healthy talks about consent look like and to model consent seeking behavior in the bedroom so that others can be informed and know how to navigate these discussions. None of this solves the problem of justice when force is on the more extreme end (such as violent rape), but it can help to reduce rape which involves coercion or simple miscommunication.
I honestly think that could end up being worse as it opens up for misuse. You record consent and then afterwards break the other persons boundaries or basically assault them, and then have the consent recording to point. Again switching all the blame back to the victim.
This is not something we can solve with 100% accuracy by law, but to me it seems like we are moving in the right direction. I see a big shift just from before and after MeToo. Consent and boundaries is actually being openly talked about and seems to be included in sec education now. My own from 25 years ago was just STD and pregnancy. And recently the law in Denmark on rape changed to a consent based principle, which of course doesn't solve everything over night, it really does seem it has started a cultural shift in the right direction.
I agree, part of consent of that it can be withdrawn at any time.
I remember a while back folks were making fun of one of the Scandinavian countries about needing a contract for sex. I doubt this was exactly what was going on, but the inability to withdraw consent was part of the conversation for those who took it seriously.