I think it's also important to know when you want to pay that second price, and when you want to want to pay that second price. (If anyone can help me understand how to find out that difference...
Exemplary
I think it's also important to know when you want to pay that second price, and when you want to want to pay that second price. (If anyone can help me understand how to find out that difference before ever paying the first price please let me know!)
For me, astrophotography is something I want to pay that second price on. I want to get out there in the bitter cold in December and take amateurish, blurry pictures of M33 and M42 and the Pleiades, and even if I come inside and stack hundreds of RAWs and get nothing but ugly noise, I still enjoy the process.
Learning to draw was something I wanted to want to pay that second price on. I bought the sketchbooks, the pencils, the felt tip pens, drew a box for a month straight, and realized that I wasn't having any fun with it. It's nothing wrong with the program I was doing, it's the fact that I didn't want to learn to draw. I wanted to want to learn it. I wanted a hobby, drawing seemed easy and low cost, but it wasn't any fun for me.
I recently ordered my first skateboard on the internet. I've wanted to learn how to ride a skateboard ever since I was a kid, but the skating scene intimidated me away from it. Now I'm 28 years old, not worried about pothead teenagers picking on me, and I want to learn it. Reading this article has me worried and excited to find out whether I want to pay that second price for this skateboard, or if I just want another thing that I could do but don't genuinely want to (like that ukulele in the corner of my room, or the sketchbook in my closet, or the lock picking set in my drawer, or the ungodly amount of video games on my Xbox).
I used to skateboard as a teenager and now I'm a 32 year old man, I won't lie, I've been tempted to get back into it before. What I will say is... you will fall and hurt your old, dusty self. You...
I used to skateboard as a teenager and now I'm a 32 year old man, I won't lie, I've been tempted to get back into it before.
What I will say is... you will fall and hurt your old, dusty self. You have to accept that. If you can then you will have fun. If you can't then it might not be for you. What I'd recommend is picking specific things you wanna do and repeat until you learn. Learning to skateboard in 2023 is 10,000x easier than in 2001 because now you can watch a million tutorial videos on YouTube in slow motion for free. I wish that resource was around when I was a kid.
While I totally get what you're saying, 28 (or even 32 for some) is really not that old. I mean the reasoning is sound, just a bit precocious. Many athletes reach their peak at that age. Know your...
While I totally get what you're saying, 28 (or even 32 for some) is really not that old.
I mean the reasoning is sound, just a bit precocious. Many athletes reach their peak at that age.
Know your limits. If you really wanna skate, just don't approach it like you're 18. Because you're not š¤·šæāāļø
I think there's a big difference between being a 32 year old who has skateboarder for 16 years and starting to skate when you're 32. I wouldn't dissuade someone from doing either. Just that you're...
I think there's a big difference between being a 32 year old who has skateboarder for 16 years and starting to skate when you're 32.
I wouldn't dissuade someone from doing either. Just that you're GONNA hurt to some degree snd that hurt hits different if you're 32 and not used to it.
Oof, I tried to get back on a skate board a few years ago at 30 years old, I lost all my balance on anything except flat, all the transition and ramps at the skatepark threw my balance off, I have...
Oof, I tried to get back on a skate board a few years ago at 30 years old, I lost all my balance on anything except flat, all the transition and ramps at the skatepark threw my balance off, I have two skateboards I'm trying to sell but not getting any bites, when I was 15 I would have loved to get 2 skateboards on the cheap, I broke so many decks
The friction between these two things (whether known or not before paying the first price) can be a source of much anxiety. For example if you see, and are reminded of that first price, it may...
I think it's also important to know when you want to pay that second price, and when you want to want to pay that second price.
The friction between these two things (whether known or not before paying the first price) can be a source of much anxiety. For example if you see, and are reminded of that first price, it may just provoke feelings of guilt, rather than motivation.
I am going through a process of conscious decluttering (in a Marie Kondo way, by focussing on what I want to keep) and learning to face the feelings I attach with things, including at times acknowledging that in retrospect the first price shouldn't have been paid, but that that is a sunk cost, and rehoming that item prevents me from paying further emotional costs!
It's also tricky when the first cost wasn't paid by you.
@rickartz mentioned in another comment the positive side of this:
gifts from someone thoughtful would give you a second price debt, even when you didn't invest for it
But it can also have a harder side to it, if you realise you don't want to pay the second price, but might have feelings about rehoming it, linked to the fact it was a gift or has other memories attached to it.
I tried the conmari thing back in like 2014 maybe, but I didnt finish, I just learned how to throw out clothes and fold the ones I want to keep, I didnt make it past the clothes chapter
I tried the conmari thing back in like 2014 maybe, but I didnt finish, I just learned how to throw out clothes and fold the ones I want to keep, I didnt make it past the clothes chapter
I have absolutely not gone through the Konmari method either! I read the books, and have internalised a few bits that were useful to me. I do fold some types of clothes now, and I liked the topics...
I have absolutely not gone through the Konmari method either! I read the books, and have internalised a few bits that were useful to me. I do fold some types of clothes now, and I liked the topics around dealing with sentimental items, and identifying/facing why we have kept, and have difficulty parting with things at times.
Here are a couple of parts I highlighted when reading two of the books:
The life-changing magic of tidying
People have trouble discarding things that they could still use (functional value), that contain helpful information (informational value) and that have sentimental ties (emotional value). When these things are hard to obtain or replace (rarity), they become even harder to throw away.
By paring down to the volume that you can properly handle, you revitalise your relationship with your belongings. Just because you throw something away, does not mean you give up past experiences or your identity.
The process of facing and selecting our possessions can be quite painful. It forces us to confront our imperfections and inadequacies and the foolish choices we made in the past.
There are three approaches we can take towards our possessions. Face them now, face them sometime, or avoid them until the day we die.
Spark Joy
The important thing in tidying is not deciding what to discard but rather what you want to keep in your life.
I really like the idea of using what you have to go directly to the second price and avoid the first as much as possible. Sometimes itās unavoidable to pay the first price though, so I try to rent...
I really like the idea of using what you have to go directly to the second price and avoid the first as much as possible. Sometimes itās unavoidable to pay the first price though, so I try to rent as much as possible. Earlier this year I got really into the idea of mountain biking and almost committed to buying a new beginner mountain bike. Luckily I wised up and rented one for a weekend instead. Even though it wasnāt super cheap to rent (like 1/4 the price of a new beginner one), Iām glad I did it because I havenāt had the craving to go mountain biking again (even though it was an enjoyable experience).
Alternatively: buy used, try it out, and if you absolutely fall in love and want the new thing buy that. Sometimes you may even just fall in love with the used thing (I did this with a bike albeit...
Alternatively: buy used, try it out, and if you absolutely fall in love and want the new thing buy that. Sometimes you may even just fall in love with the used thing (I did this with a bike albeit not a mountain bike).
I got used to buying used stuff because I love retro video games and collected them for years, then I just started buying other stuff used when I needed it because I was already used to it (on Kijiji which is a popular Canadian buy/sell site).
Heck I go golfing once in a blue moon with work friends, I have no interest in golf but don't mind spending time outside with friends. I got a set of old golf clubs + a golf bag for $10 and it's done fine for me for years.
This is such an insanely useful framework for examining your daily life! It's not every day I get a philosophical bombshell thrown at me, let alone one that is so instantly digestable. Well done,...
This is such an insanely useful framework for examining your daily life! It's not every day I get a philosophical bombshell thrown at me, let alone one that is so instantly digestable. Well done, OP.
While reading this, it was almost visceral how many things I was instantly identifying as wasted cost. The books example was a good one, but for me it's video games; I have so many video games that I have not played at all, let alone all the games I have played and never finished. I've also got unfinished debt in the form of musical instruments I've dabbled but never mastered. And it all goes back to the old saying, "time is money" - time is such an incredibly precious resource.
As I get older, I'm realising it's not just "time", but "energy". After a day of work, I have some time to do hobbies and projects. But I don't always have the energy.
And it all goes back to the old saying, "time is money" - time is such an incredibly precious resource.
As I get older, I'm realising it's not just "time", but "energy". After a day of work, I have some time to do hobbies and projects. But I don't always have the energy.
The first thing that sprang to my mind was the food in my fridge that's gone bad... At least that bass guitar in my closet doesn't have a strict time limit attached to it. The green onions that I...
While reading this, it was almost visceral how many things I was instantly identifying as wasted cost.
The first thing that sprang to my mind was the food in my fridge that's gone bad... At least that bass guitar in my closet doesn't have a strict time limit attached to it. The green onions that I was definitely going to use for that fried tofu dish, though... I need to start thinking about the food I buy in these terms. I didn't just pay $1.86 for those green onions, it also cost me $1.86 worth of green onions when I threw them away. I don't care to admit how many other things in my fridge that applies to, but it's definitely more than just the onions...
I did not anticipate reading something like this as soon as I woke up. It definitely gives you something to think about for sure. All these apps exist now designed to just give you quick little...
I did not anticipate reading something like this as soon as I woke up. It definitely gives you something to think about for sure. All these apps exist now designed to just give you quick little hits of dopamine and then force you to scroll through endlessly to get to the next. So many skinner boxes exist in our lives now.
Kinda makes me wanna finally go through my Steam library and pay a few more second prices.
This is very true with books: I buy so many books for the knowledge then fail to actually read them and assimilate the knowledge. Need to follow through more!
This is very true with books: I buy so many books for the knowledge then fail to actually read them and assimilate the knowledge. Need to follow through more!
You might try different format books for knowledge that are more enjoyable/lower barrier of entry to regularly pick up. Lots of reference texts are not really written as sit-down cover-to-cover books.
You might try different format books for knowledge that are more enjoyable/lower barrier of entry to regularly pick up. Lots of reference texts are not really written as sit-down cover-to-cover books.
Whenever possible I download the Kindle sample and don't buy the book unless I read to the end of the sample. This is a good way of collecting books you might want to read someday. I haven't been...
Whenever possible I download the Kindle sample and don't buy the book unless I read to the end of the sample. This is a good way of collecting books you might want to read someday. I haven't been reading much lately, so I have quite a few samples.
Unfortunately, samples aren't available until the book comes out, so I can't use it to remember books that aren't out yet.
I get basically unlimited free books and audiobooks from my works "learning" funds (the only thing I really care to spend it on that is eligible for reimbursement.) It kinda makes me miss the days...
I get basically unlimited free books and audiobooks from my works "learning" funds (the only thing I really care to spend it on that is eligible for reimbursement.)
It kinda makes me miss the days when I worked in construction because I had a lot more time where just listening to an audiobook was a great way to get through a long days work. Now that I sit at a computer all day for work there's many more exciting things to use my attention on so I barely read or listen anymore.
I'm still buying them though because why not, maybe someday I'll become a long haul trucker and need books to listen to haha
For books I try and use my library for a physical copy or even better - a digital copy. If I highlight something there it gets sent to Readwise and then automatically exported into my āsecond...
For books I try and use my library for a physical copy or even better - a digital copy. If I highlight something there it gets sent to Readwise and then automatically exported into my āsecond brainā aka. Obsidian note vault. So the knowledge isnāt lost; and my book shelf doesnāt exist in a physical sense.
This picks up on a thing Iāve found a lot in academia. Iāve found there is also a very similar condition when it comes to learning/studying. You can spend a lot of time on the first cost parts:...
This picks up on a thing Iāve found a lot in academia. Iāve found there is also a very similar condition when it comes to learning/studying. You can spend a lot of time on the first cost parts: taking out books, printing off notes, making things neat etc that somehow trick you into thinking youāve spent that time well. Itās only when you actually read those notes or books that it pays off. As is true in the article, the former is easy and ācheapā while the latter expensive.
I couldn't quite relate to the concept of "second price" proposed by this writer, as he presented it in some examples. This was the main example that snagged me, that I couldn't get over. I don't...
I couldn't quite relate to the concept of "second price" proposed by this writer, as he presented it in some examples.
A new novel, for example, might require twenty dollars for its first priceāand ten hours of dedicated reading time for its second. Only once the second price is being paid do you see any return on the first one.
This was the main example that snagged me, that I couldn't get over.
I don't perceive reading as a "price" I have to pay. It's not a means to an end: it's an end in and of itself. When I pay that $20, I'm buying the opportunity to enjoy reading for 10 hours. That 10 hours of reading isn't a second price to be paid, it's the benefit I receive from the first price I pay.
I get it with regard to the kale example: there truly is a second price to pay, in time and effort, before benefitting from the kale.
But, that book example has it all twisted. Reading isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.
To expand on this with two more examples from my own life:
I once played a boardgame with some people in a gaming group. At the end, one of them said "I enjoyed that game because I won." My response was that winning only provides enjoyment for 5 minutes at the end of the game. What about the 3 hours leading up to that? Those 3 hours are not a price that you pay for the enjoyment of winning: they're the benefit itself. If you don't enjoy the 3 hours of playing, then boardgaming isn't the right hobby for you.
I used to act on stage. We would rehearse two or three nights per week, for a few months before we performed in front of an audience. That's a lot of cold nights in rehearsal halls, with none of the affirmation of having an audience react. Again, that's not a price that you pay: that's the benefit itself. If you don't enjoy the process of rehearsing (and everything associated with it), then acting isn't the right hobby for you.
I see evidence of destination-focussed thinking in this writer's blog. He needs to realise that the journey is also part of the enjoyment of life, rather than a price to pay. It's not all about getting to the finish line.
I didnāt interpret price to be a negative thing, simply a loss of something in exchange for something else. The second price here is your time. Time that could be spent doing something else. Itās...
I didnāt interpret price to be a negative thing, simply a loss of something in exchange for something else.
I couldn't quite relate to the concept of "second price" proposed by this writer, as he presented it in some examples.
I don't perceive reading as a "price" I have to pay. It's not a means to an end: it's an end in and of itself. When I pay that $20, I'm buying the opportunity to enjoy reading for 10 hours. That 10 hours of reading isn't a second price to be paid, it's the benefit I receive from the first price I pay.
The second price here is your time. Time that could be spent doing something else. Itās a cost but itās neutral in and of itself. The price may be āgoodā or ābadā subjectively. As you say, you pay the first price for the second price. A good investment we could say.
Yes. A price you gladly pay is still a price. You paid it. You canāt get that time back. Could you have spent that time on something you would have enjoyed more or less? Of course! Thatās what the...
Yes. A price you gladly pay is still a price. You paid it. You canāt get that time back. Could you have spent that time on something you would have enjoyed more or less? Of course! Thatās what the idea of opportunity cost is all about. But itās very strange to reject the idea that enjoying spending 10 hours is spending 10 hours.
The TIME IS MONEY metaphor is ubiquitous and fundamental, I think. Like, itās really difficult to use language to describe the domain of time without adopting the metaphor. I think the metaphor is apt, though. There is something fundamental about the arrow of time and it being a limited resource. If youāre not convinced, I can recommend Metaphors We Live By by Lakoff and Johnson which goes into the linguistic framing of such metaphors.
So... if I'm paying $20 to buy 10 hours of enjoyment while reading... that 10 hours is also a cost, even though it's something I want to do. Yeah... I think the writer is taking this "second...
So... if I'm paying $20 to buy 10 hours of enjoyment while reading... that 10 hours is also a cost, even though it's something I want to do.
Yeah... I think the writer is taking this "second price" concept a bit too far.
It's still a "price" in the sense of "using a scarce resource" - time/energy/attention. We all only have 24 hours in a day and a lot of calls on that time. The word "price" has negative...
It's still a "price" in the sense of "using a scarce resource" - time/energy/attention. We all only have 24 hours in a day and a lot of calls on that time. The word "price" has negative connotations, which is what you seem hung up on. The point the author is making is that it can be much easier to buy a lot of novels and think "yes, I'm totally going to read those someday" than to actually sit and read them.
If you naturally only buy/acquire novels you are genuinely excited about reading and then read them promptly - congratulations, you're already doing exactly what the author is recommending. I read a lot of novels but still have a shelf of books I picked up for 50c each because I thought my future self would want to read them. It turns out that the hundreds of books on my TBR list are more immediately tempting than those on that shelf.
But you might be falling into this trap in other places (other commenters have mentioned food/cooking, learning, and various other hobbies).
ETA: it's anti-consumerism. Every commercial and ad tells us that our life will be better if we buy a thing. It's really only better if we use things.
Actually, you might have nailed the problem. I don't buy something if I can't use it. My "to be read" pile was always less than 10 books, and I always got through it, and I even stopped buying...
If you naturally only buy/acquire novels you are genuinely excited about reading and then read them promptly - congratulations, you're already doing exactly what the author is recommending.
Actually, you might have nailed the problem. I don't buy something if I can't use it.
My "to be read" pile was always less than 10 books, and I always got through it, and I even stopped buying more books if the pile got too big.
Now that I've switched mostly to e-books, my "to be read" pile is a wishlist on the Kobo bookstore: books I haven't paid money for, but will pay money for when I'm ready to read them.
I play boardgames. I know people who buy stacks of games, and then don't play them. I only buy games after I've played them, enjoyed them, and know I will play them again - and I do.
And so on.
I've learned over the years that buying something I'm not actually going to consume / read / watch / eat / use is just waste of money - so I don't.
I had to make a similar rule for myself with Steam games. I was buying a bunch on sales for $1 or $5 because they were a great deal, and never played them. I through made the rule that I cannot...
I had to make a similar rule for myself with Steam games. I was buying a bunch on sales for $1 or $5 because they were a great deal, and never played them. I through made the rule that I cannot buy a game unless I'm going to play it immediately, at that moment.
I love this way of looking at things. I am extremely guilty of only paying the first price but not feeling motivated to pay the second but the way the author explained it made so much sense to me.
I love this way of looking at things. I am extremely guilty of only paying the first price but not feeling motivated to pay the second but the way the author explained it made so much sense to me.
I can relate, and I was thinking exactly about this on the post here today about automated homes. Some Tilderinos (?) have extensive and impressive home automation. Not to take away from their...
I can relate, and I was thinking exactly about this on the post here today about automated homes. Some Tilderinos (?) have extensive and impressive home automation. Not to take away from their accomplishments, I had to think about how much time it would take to not only set everything up but to maintain it and make sure it keeps working to 'save time' and effort.
BUYING systems is the easy part, but I had to think about how many cool projects are still laying on my workbench because installing them is going to be work, but as usual, the setup and mastery is probably going to take four times longer than I anticipated, at which point, if it doesnt work perfectly (unlikely) I'll have to wonder if all that time and effort and maintenance was worth it to 'save' time and effort.
I feel the same way. I've gotten to the point where I'm thinking "maybe just a little is okay". I bought some smart plugs today to use for specific things like a bedroom lamp. Figured we could try...
I feel the same way. I've gotten to the point where I'm thinking "maybe just a little is okay". I bought some smart plugs today to use for specific things like a bedroom lamp. Figured we could try that out and see how it goes.
I'm extremely reluctant to do any kind of voice activated anything so I'm not bothering with that.
There's a concept in the fiber arts community: SABLE: Stash Acquisition Beyond Life Expectancy. My wife has fallen into this trap, where she'll buy yarn or a piece of fabric because of the dream...
There's a concept in the fiber arts community: SABLE: Stash Acquisition Beyond Life Expectancy. My wife has fallen into this trap, where she'll buy yarn or a piece of fabric because of the dream of what she could make with it, and then the dream is the only piece that ever happens. I used to do it with video games, and at some point started to refuse to buy a new game unless I wanted to sit down and play it right then. At least with fabric it might sell out; games don't do that sort of thing anymore, which might have helped me break the habit.
Something the article didn't mention is the fact that there's quality products out there for which there's no first price. Awesome content, useful apps, and gifts from someone thoughtful would...
Something the article didn't mention is the fact that there's quality products out there for which there's no first price.
Awesome content, useful apps, and gifts from someone thoughtful would give you a second price debt, even when you didn't invest for it.
On one hand, it's incredible to be able to have something that could potentially change our lives with only a second price attached to it.
On the other hand, even then lots of people won't pay that second price. It's even worst because without the first price, there no motivation whatsoever to get your money spend back, regardless of quality.
For me, I'm studying languages, and the amount of resources for studying is staggering. I have to choose what to study, because there's so much content, and lots of it for free. I'm grateful for it, because I'm a broke college student, but now that means I'm also broke about my second price debt.
This article really just smacked me in the face with how much I connected with it. I keep on getting all these tiny things, even if they're cheap in terms of the first price, that have these...
This article really just smacked me in the face with how much I connected with it. I keep on getting all these tiny things, even if they're cheap in terms of the first price, that have these ginormous second prices attached to them. Maybe a good strategy is to have a few things you want to pay the second price for and focus on those until the debt is cleared, then you can get something new.
Definitely easier said than done, especially for someone with ADHD!
I really enjoyed this article. But totally offtopic, this article is also a real struggle to tag. So if anyone has any recommendations for appropriate tags, please let me know. Because I am...
I really enjoyed this article. But totally offtopic, this article is also a real struggle to tag. So if anyone has any recommendations for appropriate tags, please let me know. Because I am drawing a blank. And I see I am not the only one struggling to come up with tags for it either, eh @mycketforvirrad. ;)
I'll just spew some suggestions: life tips, advice, life hacks, self improvement, modern life, cost of living, modern life, capitalism, social commentary
I'll just spew some suggestions:
life tips, advice, life hacks, self improvement, modern life, cost of living, modern life, capitalism, social commentary
I think quite a few of those fall squarely under ~life in general (so don't necessarily need a distinct tag?) and the advice and help.self tags (which I already added), but I have added cost of...
I think quite a few of those fall squarely under ~life in general (so don't necessarily need a distinct tag?) and the advice and help.self tags (which I already added), but I have added cost of living, and capitalism too. Thanks!
I only ever skim posted articles for tags. If nothing jumps out at me quickly, I'm moving on. Sometimes there is art in simplicity. Or something... š
I only ever skim posted articles for tags. If nothing jumps out at me quickly, I'm moving on. Sometimes there is art in simplicity. Or something... š
Not sure if it is helpful, but It was already posted to Tildes under ~finance (and deleted by the author) here. As an aside, I find it weird to see this reposted here. Itās both heartening to see...
Not sure if it is helpful, but It was already posted to Tildes under ~finance (and deleted by the author) here.
As an aside, I find it weird to see this reposted here. Itās both heartening to see Tildesā recent growth, but disheartening to see that good content like this has come and gone with very little interest in the past. The vagary of community and tagging classification makes me worry that it is an inherently unsolvable problem.
I think it's also important to know when you want to pay that second price, and when you want to want to pay that second price. (If anyone can help me understand how to find out that difference before ever paying the first price please let me know!)
For me, astrophotography is something I want to pay that second price on. I want to get out there in the bitter cold in December and take amateurish, blurry pictures of M33 and M42 and the Pleiades, and even if I come inside and stack hundreds of RAWs and get nothing but ugly noise, I still enjoy the process.
Learning to draw was something I wanted to want to pay that second price on. I bought the sketchbooks, the pencils, the felt tip pens, drew a box for a month straight, and realized that I wasn't having any fun with it. It's nothing wrong with the program I was doing, it's the fact that I didn't want to learn to draw. I wanted to want to learn it. I wanted a hobby, drawing seemed easy and low cost, but it wasn't any fun for me.
I recently ordered my first skateboard on the internet. I've wanted to learn how to ride a skateboard ever since I was a kid, but the skating scene intimidated me away from it. Now I'm 28 years old, not worried about pothead teenagers picking on me, and I want to learn it. Reading this article has me worried and excited to find out whether I want to pay that second price for this skateboard, or if I just want another thing that I could do but don't genuinely want to (like that ukulele in the corner of my room, or the sketchbook in my closet, or the lock picking set in my drawer, or the ungodly amount of video games on my Xbox).
I used to skateboard as a teenager and now I'm a 32 year old man, I won't lie, I've been tempted to get back into it before.
What I will say is... you will fall and hurt your old, dusty self. You have to accept that. If you can then you will have fun. If you can't then it might not be for you. What I'd recommend is picking specific things you wanna do and repeat until you learn. Learning to skateboard in 2023 is 10,000x easier than in 2001 because now you can watch a million tutorial videos on YouTube in slow motion for free. I wish that resource was around when I was a kid.
While I totally get what you're saying, 28 (or even 32 for some) is really not that old.
I mean the reasoning is sound, just a bit precocious. Many athletes reach their peak at that age.
Know your limits. If you really wanna skate, just don't approach it like you're 18. Because you're not š¤·šæāāļø
You don't have to be the new Tony Hawk :P
Source: I'm 40.
I think there's a big difference between being a 32 year old who has skateboarder for 16 years and starting to skate when you're 32.
I wouldn't dissuade someone from doing either. Just that you're GONNA hurt to some degree snd that hurt hits different if you're 32 and not used to it.
Absolutely those are good points.
Oof, I tried to get back on a skate board a few years ago at 30 years old, I lost all my balance on anything except flat, all the transition and ramps at the skatepark threw my balance off, I have two skateboards I'm trying to sell but not getting any bites, when I was 15 I would have loved to get 2 skateboards on the cheap, I broke so many decks
The friction between these two things (whether known or not before paying the first price) can be a source of much anxiety. For example if you see, and are reminded of that first price, it may just provoke feelings of guilt, rather than motivation.
I am going through a process of conscious decluttering (in a Marie Kondo way, by focussing on what I want to keep) and learning to face the feelings I attach with things, including at times acknowledging that in retrospect the first price shouldn't have been paid, but that that is a sunk cost, and rehoming that item prevents me from paying further emotional costs!
It's also tricky when the first cost wasn't paid by you.
@rickartz mentioned in another comment the positive side of this:
But it can also have a harder side to it, if you realise you don't want to pay the second price, but might have feelings about rehoming it, linked to the fact it was a gift or has other memories attached to it.
I tried the conmari thing back in like 2014 maybe, but I didnt finish, I just learned how to throw out clothes and fold the ones I want to keep, I didnt make it past the clothes chapter
I have absolutely not gone through the Konmari method either! I read the books, and have internalised a few bits that were useful to me. I do fold some types of clothes now, and I liked the topics around dealing with sentimental items, and identifying/facing why we have kept, and have difficulty parting with things at times.
Here are a couple of parts I highlighted when reading two of the books:
The life-changing magic of tidying
Spark Joy
I really like the idea of using what you have to go directly to the second price and avoid the first as much as possible. Sometimes itās unavoidable to pay the first price though, so I try to rent as much as possible. Earlier this year I got really into the idea of mountain biking and almost committed to buying a new beginner mountain bike. Luckily I wised up and rented one for a weekend instead. Even though it wasnāt super cheap to rent (like 1/4 the price of a new beginner one), Iām glad I did it because I havenāt had the craving to go mountain biking again (even though it was an enjoyable experience).
Alternatively: buy used, try it out, and if you absolutely fall in love and want the new thing buy that. Sometimes you may even just fall in love with the used thing (I did this with a bike albeit not a mountain bike).
I got used to buying used stuff because I love retro video games and collected them for years, then I just started buying other stuff used when I needed it because I was already used to it (on Kijiji which is a popular Canadian buy/sell site).
Heck I go golfing once in a blue moon with work friends, I have no interest in golf but don't mind spending time outside with friends. I got a set of old golf clubs + a golf bag for $10 and it's done fine for me for years.
This is such an insanely useful framework for examining your daily life! It's not every day I get a philosophical bombshell thrown at me, let alone one that is so instantly digestable. Well done, OP.
While reading this, it was almost visceral how many things I was instantly identifying as wasted cost. The books example was a good one, but for me it's video games; I have so many video games that I have not played at all, let alone all the games I have played and never finished. I've also got unfinished debt in the form of musical instruments I've dabbled but never mastered. And it all goes back to the old saying, "time is money" - time is such an incredibly precious resource.
As I get older, I'm realising it's not just "time", but "energy". After a day of work, I have some time to do hobbies and projects. But I don't always have the energy.
The first thing that sprang to my mind was the food in my fridge that's gone bad... At least that bass guitar in my closet doesn't have a strict time limit attached to it. The green onions that I was definitely going to use for that fried tofu dish, though... I need to start thinking about the food I buy in these terms. I didn't just pay $1.86 for those green onions, it also cost me $1.86 worth of green onions when I threw them away. I don't care to admit how many other things in my fridge that applies to, but it's definitely more than just the onions...
I did not anticipate reading something like this as soon as I woke up. It definitely gives you something to think about for sure. All these apps exist now designed to just give you quick little hits of dopamine and then force you to scroll through endlessly to get to the next. So many skinner boxes exist in our lives now.
Kinda makes me wanna finally go through my Steam library and pay a few more second prices.
This is very true with books: I buy so many books for the knowledge then fail to actually read them and assimilate the knowledge. Need to follow through more!
You might try different format books for knowledge that are more enjoyable/lower barrier of entry to regularly pick up. Lots of reference texts are not really written as sit-down cover-to-cover books.
To be honest I more mean non referential style books on a topic/long form essays.
I agree referential books can be read non sequentially
Whenever possible I download the Kindle sample and don't buy the book unless I read to the end of the sample. This is a good way of collecting books you might want to read someday. I haven't been reading much lately, so I have quite a few samples.
Unfortunately, samples aren't available until the book comes out, so I can't use it to remember books that aren't out yet.
Check out your local library and what digital apps they have. I get digital audiobooks and books through the app Libby (fka. OverDrive).
I get basically unlimited free books and audiobooks from my works "learning" funds (the only thing I really care to spend it on that is eligible for reimbursement.)
It kinda makes me miss the days when I worked in construction because I had a lot more time where just listening to an audiobook was a great way to get through a long days work. Now that I sit at a computer all day for work there's many more exciting things to use my attention on so I barely read or listen anymore.
I'm still buying them though because why not, maybe someday I'll become a long haul trucker and need books to listen to haha
For books I try and use my library for a physical copy or even better - a digital copy. If I highlight something there it gets sent to Readwise and then automatically exported into my āsecond brainā aka. Obsidian note vault. So the knowledge isnāt lost; and my book shelf doesnāt exist in a physical sense.
That was a insightful read. Never had heard that expression "pay twice" before, and that is a concept that I can relate too well.
This picks up on a thing Iāve found a lot in academia. Iāve found there is also a very similar condition when it comes to learning/studying. You can spend a lot of time on the first cost parts: taking out books, printing off notes, making things neat etc that somehow trick you into thinking youāve spent that time well. Itās only when you actually read those notes or books that it pays off. As is true in the article, the former is easy and ācheapā while the latter expensive.
I couldn't quite relate to the concept of "second price" proposed by this writer, as he presented it in some examples.
This was the main example that snagged me, that I couldn't get over.
I don't perceive reading as a "price" I have to pay. It's not a means to an end: it's an end in and of itself. When I pay that $20, I'm buying the opportunity to enjoy reading for 10 hours. That 10 hours of reading isn't a second price to be paid, it's the benefit I receive from the first price I pay.
I get it with regard to the kale example: there truly is a second price to pay, in time and effort, before benefitting from the kale.
But, that book example has it all twisted. Reading isn't about the destination, it's about the journey.
To expand on this with two more examples from my own life:
I once played a boardgame with some people in a gaming group. At the end, one of them said "I enjoyed that game because I won." My response was that winning only provides enjoyment for 5 minutes at the end of the game. What about the 3 hours leading up to that? Those 3 hours are not a price that you pay for the enjoyment of winning: they're the benefit itself. If you don't enjoy the 3 hours of playing, then boardgaming isn't the right hobby for you.
I used to act on stage. We would rehearse two or three nights per week, for a few months before we performed in front of an audience. That's a lot of cold nights in rehearsal halls, with none of the affirmation of having an audience react. Again, that's not a price that you pay: that's the benefit itself. If you don't enjoy the process of rehearsing (and everything associated with it), then acting isn't the right hobby for you.
I see evidence of destination-focussed thinking in this writer's blog. He needs to realise that the journey is also part of the enjoyment of life, rather than a price to pay. It's not all about getting to the finish line.
I didnāt interpret price to be a negative thing, simply a loss of something in exchange for something else.
The second price here is your time. Time that could be spent doing something else. Itās a cost but itās neutral in and of itself. The price may be āgoodā or ābadā subjectively. As you say, you pay the first price for the second price. A good investment we could say.
I get it, but I don't get it. Is it really a price if I'm enjoying those 10 hours?
Yes. A price you gladly pay is still a price. You paid it. You canāt get that time back. Could you have spent that time on something you would have enjoyed more or less? Of course! Thatās what the idea of opportunity cost is all about. But itās very strange to reject the idea that enjoying spending 10 hours is spending 10 hours.
The
TIME IS MONEYmetaphor is ubiquitous and fundamental, I think. Like, itās really difficult to use language to describe the domain of time without adopting the metaphor. I think the metaphor is apt, though. There is something fundamental about the arrow of time and it being a limited resource. If youāre not convinced, I can recommend Metaphors We Live By by Lakoff and Johnson which goes into the linguistic framing of such metaphors.So... if I'm paying $20 to buy 10 hours of enjoyment while reading... that 10 hours is also a cost, even though it's something I want to do.
Yeah... I think the writer is taking this "second price" concept a bit too far.
Yes, it is. Because it costs you effort, time, energy, focus, etc. Without spending those things, your first price, money, is wasted.
It's still a "price" in the sense of "using a scarce resource" - time/energy/attention. We all only have 24 hours in a day and a lot of calls on that time. The word "price" has negative connotations, which is what you seem hung up on. The point the author is making is that it can be much easier to buy a lot of novels and think "yes, I'm totally going to read those someday" than to actually sit and read them.
If you naturally only buy/acquire novels you are genuinely excited about reading and then read them promptly - congratulations, you're already doing exactly what the author is recommending. I read a lot of novels but still have a shelf of books I picked up for 50c each because I thought my future self would want to read them. It turns out that the hundreds of books on my TBR list are more immediately tempting than those on that shelf.
But you might be falling into this trap in other places (other commenters have mentioned food/cooking, learning, and various other hobbies).
ETA: it's anti-consumerism. Every commercial and ad tells us that our life will be better if we buy a thing. It's really only better if we use things.
Actually, you might have nailed the problem. I don't buy something if I can't use it.
My "to be read" pile was always less than 10 books, and I always got through it, and I even stopped buying more books if the pile got too big.
Now that I've switched mostly to e-books, my "to be read" pile is a wishlist on the Kobo bookstore: books I haven't paid money for, but will pay money for when I'm ready to read them.
I play boardgames. I know people who buy stacks of games, and then don't play them. I only buy games after I've played them, enjoyed them, and know I will play them again - and I do.
And so on.
I've learned over the years that buying something I'm not actually going to consume / read / watch / eat / use is just waste of money - so I don't.
Sounds like you came about the same lesson independently!
I had to make a similar rule for myself with Steam games. I was buying a bunch on sales for $1 or $5 because they were a great deal, and never played them. I through made the rule that I cannot buy a game unless I'm going to play it immediately, at that moment.
I love this way of looking at things. I am extremely guilty of only paying the first price but not feeling motivated to pay the second but the way the author explained it made so much sense to me.
I can relate, and I was thinking exactly about this on the post here today about automated homes. Some Tilderinos (?) have extensive and impressive home automation. Not to take away from their accomplishments, I had to think about how much time it would take to not only set everything up but to maintain it and make sure it keeps working to 'save time' and effort.
BUYING systems is the easy part, but I had to think about how many cool projects are still laying on my workbench because installing them is going to be work, but as usual, the setup and mastery is probably going to take four times longer than I anticipated, at which point, if it doesnt work perfectly (unlikely) I'll have to wonder if all that time and effort and maintenance was worth it to 'save' time and effort.
I feel the same way. I've gotten to the point where I'm thinking "maybe just a little is okay". I bought some smart plugs today to use for specific things like a bedroom lamp. Figured we could try that out and see how it goes.
I'm extremely reluctant to do any kind of voice activated anything so I'm not bothering with that.
There's a concept in the fiber arts community: SABLE: Stash Acquisition Beyond Life Expectancy. My wife has fallen into this trap, where she'll buy yarn or a piece of fabric because of the dream of what she could make with it, and then the dream is the only piece that ever happens. I used to do it with video games, and at some point started to refuse to buy a new game unless I wanted to sit down and play it right then. At least with fabric it might sell out; games don't do that sort of thing anymore, which might have helped me break the habit.
Something the article didn't mention is the fact that there's quality products out there for which there's no first price.
Awesome content, useful apps, and gifts from someone thoughtful would give you a second price debt, even when you didn't invest for it.
On one hand, it's incredible to be able to have something that could potentially change our lives with only a second price attached to it.
On the other hand, even then lots of people won't pay that second price. It's even worst because without the first price, there no motivation whatsoever to get your money spend back, regardless of quality.
For me, I'm studying languages, and the amount of resources for studying is staggering. I have to choose what to study, because there's so much content, and lots of it for free. I'm grateful for it, because I'm a broke college student, but now that means I'm also broke about my second price debt.
This article really just smacked me in the face with how much I connected with it. I keep on getting all these tiny things, even if they're cheap in terms of the first price, that have these ginormous second prices attached to them. Maybe a good strategy is to have a few things you want to pay the second price for and focus on those until the debt is cleared, then you can get something new.
Definitely easier said than done, especially for someone with ADHD!
I really enjoyed this article. But totally offtopic, this article is also a real struggle to tag. So if anyone has any recommendations for appropriate tags, please let me know. Because I am drawing a blank. And I see I am not the only one struggling to come up with tags for it either, eh @mycketforvirrad. ;)
I'll just spew some suggestions:
life tips, advice, life hacks, self improvement, modern life, cost of living, modern life, capitalism, social commentary
I think quite a few of those fall squarely under ~life in general (so don't necessarily need a distinct tag?) and the advice and help.self tags (which I already added), but I have added cost of living, and capitalism too. Thanks!
I only ever skim posted articles for tags. If nothing jumps out at me quickly, I'm moving on. Sometimes there is art in simplicity. Or something... š
Not sure if it is helpful, but It was already posted to Tildes under ~finance (and deleted by the author) here.
As an aside, I find it weird to see this reposted here. Itās both heartening to see Tildesā recent growth, but disheartening to see that good content like this has come and gone with very little interest in the past. The vagary of community and tagging classification makes me worry that it is an inherently unsolvable problem.
Thank you! I knew I had read this title before, but when I didn't find it with a cursory search, presumed I must have been losing marbles again.
advice,help.self, something along those lines?Yeah, those are good one. Thanks!
#dopamine (partly kidding)
#foss #foss #foss