I apologize in advance for the massive flame war which will likely ensue but I'm not sure we have a thread for this yet. General thoughts on tipping? Not US specific, could be about anywhere
I apologize in advance for the massive flame war which will likely ensue but I'm not sure we have a thread for this yet. General thoughts on tipping? Not US specific, could be about anywhere
Employers should pay their employees a proper wage, and factor the cost of their employees' wages into the prices they charge customers. Bugger this idea of making service people scrape and bow and grovel to customers for their money. They're human beings, and they deserve dignity in their work and their pay packet.
From this customer's point of view... if the menu says I can buy a meal for $50, I expect that price to include everything: the raw materials, the cooking and preparation, the plating and presentation, the service, and the clean-up afterward. I'm reminded of the recent trend toward "deconstructed" food, where diners are presented with raw ingredients on a tray and expected to assemble their own meal. Nuh-uh. I'm not paying good money to make my own bloody meal - I can do that at home! Similarly, don't offer me a deconstructed bill where I have to calculate my own payment. Show me the items I bought, and then give me the all-inclusive total I need to pay.
And why are waiters the only people left out of the bill? Why not leave out the chef/cook and the kitchenhands as well? What about leaving out the manager? If you, the manager, are going to make me calculate a tip for some of the people working at your establishment, let's be consistent and make me calculate a tip for you as well. Let me show you how much I think you are worth when you're underpaying your employees and making me calculate my own bills. If I have to tip your staff, let me tip you as well, and see how you like it!
And why is it only hospitality establishments that expect customers to tip? I don't tip bank tellers or car mechanics or lawyers. Why are waiters and concierges and busboys/girls being singled out?
Tipping sucks and should be abolished.
The only argument I have for tipping is as an incentive for better service, although that doesn't always take place. I can recall nights out when a whole group of people have been so appreciative of how well we'd been taken care of all night, the server ends up with a tip of at least $100 from our group. If not in anticipation of such a tip, would we have been as well served? I can also recall nights out when the service was so terrible, we'd rather not tip at all, but the custom is a bare minimum of 10%, which I've seen happen and been perfectly happy with.
I suppose you'd have to have lived with both systems, tipping vs. no-tipping, to truly know if that incentive is effective; if servers still give above-and-beyond service when paid a living wage, and they aren't incentivized by tipping.
I like French approach of not expecting good service. People should be allowed to be "just fine" at their jobs and still make a living. This idea that we the customer is entitled to a smile and like all these nice things from service workers is pretty sick. Sure, be courteous and professional but I think we down play the amount of emotional labor done by people in the service industry.
You know what people in the service industry would have been called 150 years ago? Servants. And I for one think that since we can't abolish the institution of people renting their labor for menial tasks, that these people should be entitled to their emotions. At least this should be allowed to extent where your livelihood as a bartender or uber driver that your isn't threatened by you not having such a great day and not wanting to make as much friendly banter as your patron.
I know I'm not always super pleasant and emotionally receptive at my job, and neither are the people i work with! We all have shit days and it doesn't effect our take home one bit. But somehow, when it comes to morning coffee & muffins, table service, mixed drinks, and chauffeuring this practice it becomes okay to value someone's work less because they weren't nice enough to you. As if part of their job was to be your friend! If you're getting bad service, the business should suffer not the workers because for all you know their boss is terrible and a terrible manager or something. Or maybe they are just a terrible server in which case the boss can just fire them. Either way, you're not going to be able to make a case to me that there is case in which a worker fulfills their tasks is not entitled to a living wage.
The problem with it being incentive for better service is that, because it's expected, the service is never "better" and instead is just average.
If I've been provided terrible service without visible and/or viable reasons, then I do not tip.
Examples of visible/viable reasons: excessively busy, short-staffed in some way/shape/form, waitress is new and learning
However, I am in agreeance with @Algernon_Asimov, tipping sucks and should be abolished. I will also add that, by sticking up for the system in any fashion, you're contributing to the continued existence of said system.
Always. Tip. Wait. Staff. No exceptions. If I get the shittiest service on earth, I will tip at least 15%. Always.
Do you spend 40+ hours a week performing in front of other people who always expect you to be cheerful, present, and perky? Have you ever? It's hell pretending you're okay to get by, and sometimes you have a shitty day and take it out on a customer or two - and that's fine - and should be allowed without being financially punished.
Solidarity for men and women in the kitchen, but especially those who have to appease society to earn their living.
No. I'm sorry, but I disagree. Wait staff should be paid appropriately by the business they work for and shouldn't have to rely on tips.
Also, it's not okay to take out your frustrations on a customer, and to think it's okay is crap.
Agreed, but that's not the world we live in.
Actually, most of the world (as far as I'm aware) does live in that. North America is unfortunately the exception. Maybe some other places that I'm not directly aware of, but NA for sure.
I live in Australia where tipping is not the norm, and I have had servers provide above-and-beyond service. In those cases, I'm happy to tip a bit extra. The whole point of "above and beyond" service is that it is above and beyond what you expect. I pay a standard price for a standard level of service. If I get extra service, I'll pay extra. But that standard price should still entitle me to a standard level of service, and should be enough to pay the server a decent wage, rather than ripping them off.
Tipping isn't an incentive for "better service" and it's frankly insulting to any service worker to imply they don't have the professionalism to just do their jobs well because it's their job rather than expecting them to be conditioned like dumb animals by dangling shiny treats in front of them.
What actually happens is that tips vary widely depending on how generous your customer is feeling that day, whether you're attractive, whether you're willing to flirt and submit to inappropriate advances or harassment by customers, whether you're White or not, how low your blouse is cut, and a thousand other stupid and irrelevant criteria.
In many places, tipping culture might actually result in you getting worse service if you have the bad luck of belonging to a demographic group that has a reputation for being bad tippers.
Also the service culture in countries like Japan and Thailand, where tipping is so not expected that servers might actually follow you out and return the excess money, is leagues and leagues ahead of what it is in the US or any country I've been in where tipping is expected. This is because service workers there are treated like humans, professionals, and contributing members of society rather than a subordinate class of people who should be grateful for scraps.
I've worked as a tipped employee, and it most certainly is an incentive. I bartended banquets at an upper-middle-class hotel. The person who had the shortest line and made it the most fun for the guests definitely made the most money, and I'm a not-remotely-attractive white male. I'm not saying being attractive/flirty/scantily-clad wouldn't be a factor, but there were pretty ladies tending bars (there are multiple at each event) that didn't do well because they were lousy bartenders.
That's a broad statement. Just from reading travel guides, there are restaurants in the US that provide service as fine as anywhere in the world.
I don't love tipping culture and I'm not going to pretend there aren't better ways (like paying fairly), but I've gone home from working a New Year's Eve party with $1400 in my pocket. I'd have never made that by being paid 'fairly.' So I'm a bit biased.
If you keep the line short, you're churning through people faster so of course you're making the most money. This isn't incentivizing anything but speed, and that might be good but there's other ways to do it than introducing a ton of randomness into the process.
And it's not because of the tipping. It's because those restaurants take service seriously and acculturate their staff into taking it seriously too.
Just because you've individually done well isn't an argument in defense of the practice. People individually do well picking up cans on the road to recycle them, but that's not an argument in favor of littering either.
Edit: Besides, are you telling me that if your tips weren't as good you'd have been a shitty bartender instead? It seems more like you're saying you're happy to have been rewarded for good work instead of saying it incentivized you to do good work. But if they paid you better and had advancement plans in place you'd have been rewarded for good work anyway, and it wouldn't have been contingent on having the luck of pulling a good shift.
Not sure if this is true everywhere in the US, but where I'm from, most restaurants have a required tip (usually around 18%) for large groups. In those cases, there is little incentive to do a good job. The waiter is having a good night no matter what. Yet I've never had a serious issue.
Or possibility. You try giving the personal touch to a 12-top! That's a lot of work just getting the plates out.
If you live somewhere tipping is expected, if you can't afford to tip you can't afford the service. If a couple bucks on top of a bill breaks the bank, it's not that couple bucks that's the problem.
At the same time tipping is an awful custom as practiced in the US service industry. It perpetuates a lot of problematic behaviors and isn't of real benefit to anyone except cheapskates.
I can attest to this. I used to drive a semi truck, and one night I stopped at a truck stop which had a pizza chain franchise inside. I got a mini pizza (maybe 4" diameter) for somewhere around $5.
The cashier asked for a $2 tip.
I feel like this is a bit much no? Just because you can't afford to top you can't afford the service? I think if I am going to be charged $8 for delivery charge for a 2 mile drive, the delivery man doesn't necessarily need a tip. And tipping on top of the 8 can be pretty expensive, especially for students.
That delivery charge is not going to the driver, generally. At best they're getting a cut. There are costs to the driver associated with getting that delivery to you, like wear and tear and extra expensive insurance. If it's so onerous to tip, go pick it up yourself or get food at the grocery store where it's a lot more cost effective.
Wife delivered pizza the summer before we got married. At least at Papa John's, the delivery fee was sort of given to her. She got a flat percent of that fee, but it wasn't a part of her pay and it wasn't taxable. It was for wear and tear on her vehicle. Then the rest of it was either added to her pay check if her non-cash tips plus her hourly rate did not add up to the minimum wage. If she made more than the minimum wage from her non-cash tips and her hourly rate than she didn't see any of the rest of that delivery fee.
I delivered pizza in college, we got 25c of the 75c delivery fee, but our tips got rounded to the nearest dollar so a lot of the delivery fees didn't count, in a way. Now with new services like GrubHub etc I don't think drivers see any of that fee sometimes, it goes towards the restaurant paying to be on GrubHub.
Yeah, all these new services are sketch, tbh. I am not a fan of them and while I haven't used them I'd make sure to only tip in cash because you just can't trust these digital marketplaces. I think one or two services like this have been caught skimming off tips or not giving out any of the tip.
Some of them have some really deceptive practices with their driver tips: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18218329/doordash-amazon-flex-instacart-tipping-policies-controversy
I talked to a GrubHub driver once, they're "not allowed" to accept cash and GH takes 3% of their tips
This is the correct answer. It's a grubhub fee. And that fee is how grubhub became so massive. They collect money simply for being a middleman and provide no real service.
The takeaway being that she can't make more than minimum wage of non-cash tips?
No, if she made more than minimum wage with non cash tips she didn't get any additional compensation for the delivery charge.
I usually cook for myself for 20 out of the 21 meals in a week. I can't afford a car and it would take me 45 minutes to get the food by walking, each direction. I think it is ok for me to cheap out on a bit of tip because I would like the pleasure of eating food from a restaurant, when I am already paying delivery and service charge.
Sounds like you have a need for a service you're unwilling to pay for. This is why tipping is a bad system, it only benefits people who are cheap.
Mindsets like this are the reason I tip driver 6 buck for driving a mile. No shade on you, it's really the app's fault. They put up these exorbitant fees that certainly must be split with the driver so everyone gets the impression that they don't need to tip.
I would hope you re-evaluate this practice. But if you don't I got you faded since Im paying forward like 4 times a week. eheheh
Not sure why I deserve the harsh tone, but sure, you do you. I generally disagree with you, I think its completely wrong that I have to pay $8 on delivery fee, $5 for service charge, for $15 of food, and then tip on top of it. But does that mean that I have to stop eating out once a week because I cant afford to pay basically 100% more than the cost of the food, not at all.
What if the food shop told you when you placed your order that your meal, delivered to your door, would cost you $33.60 - total cost, all-inclusive, no tip, no extras. That includes delivery, service, wages, and the food itself. Would you order it?
A fair tip is 20%. A $3.00 tip in that case, since you tip on the value of the food. Seems reasonable. I'd probably give $5.00 to not have to get off the couch.
Why are they charging $8 for delivery? GrubHub or similar?
Once I am earning money and if I am still in the US, I will definitely start tipping better. But for now I cannot.
Also it is some local thing, I think, its called Delivery2Go
For delivery its better to tip on distance no?
I'm pretty sure Yugioh was using 'you/your/yourself' in the wider sense, not in reference to you specifically, similar to how you did in the comment they were responding to... but even if not, I didn't read any real harshness to their tone, they were simply stating their opinion.
Not at all! Just stop ordering food off of an app. You don't have to pay the fees if you call the restaurant directly. You aren't the scheister. The middleman is the one screwing drivers. If you don't want all the added cost punish literally anyone except the delivery driver. Punish the app by uninstalling it. Punish yourself by not eating out. But don't punish the driver for having the misfortune of working for a shitty app that you decided you don't want to pay for all the way since its already so damned expensive.
Except for the $8 is mostly going to the app and not the driver who has to pay for insurance and gas.
This exposes a major flaw in tipping that I don't think has a counterpoint with non-tipping: that it tipping creates scenarios where the service worker isn't getting payed enough regardless of whether or not they follow the incentive structure. If someone come in and is already decided not to tip it's a huge loser for the server since their time is given in part to someone who isn't going to pay them for their work. So, even if the norm is to tip 18% you should really be tipping more like 20% to account for the fact that some people are total dicks. With no tipping, if a customer is a dick, the worker is safe from them.
Will it? Do we have flame wars on Tildes? I remember a few posts very early on in the site's history that got a little heated, but I don't recall any in a really long time. Am I just oblivious?
I think it's a bad practice. It makes the employee's salary directly subject to the whims of their customers, it's a huge pain for the customer to have to calculate and add on an extra tip, and it encourages restaurants not to care about their workers, since they don't have any incentive to care about how many tips an employee makes or have to give raises. I lived in Japan for two years and I loved not having to tip, and I think many employees appreciate the stability as well.
I think the closest we got to actual hostility here was when gallowboob said hello. That's the most universally negative reaction I've seen on Tildes, even in the various Trump threads there was more courtesy. I still wouldn't call that a flame war, more of a collective panic attack mixed with a classic reddit circlejerk.
Deimos said he's banned thirty-ish actual problem users... out of 10k. So far the theory that 1% of the people cause 90%+ of the problems has held out.
My instinct for tipping is that it's a bad practice that should be abolished. Thing is, many tests of that idea have failed rather spectacularly. This peculiar service industry quirk is more complicated than it seems at first glance.
It's the same problem in retail. Large companies tried to do away with sales and sell things for a fixed price year round and found that their overall traffic reduced. Anchoring is a hell of a bias.
There's even more nuance to this, however, as the staff is potentially affected as well since tips are a variable source of income and an incentive to perform well each transaction (not to mention variable reward, such as gambling, which is addictive to most people).
That Trump 2020 one got a little dicey.
It should. One side of that argument has a white supremacist on it!
I think you should only have to tip if you think the service was good. I say this as somebody who works in the food service industry (I buss tables, so I get tipped by the servers who are tipped by the customer).
However, there is this weird spot where $30 a month in tips qualifies you to make less than minimal wage, and the restaurant only needs to compensate to make sure your net income (wages + tips) meets the state's minimum wage. I dislike the system because it makes the people and restaurant depend on the tips, rather than allowing them to make extra money for a job well done.
I'm actually a solid 20% tipper, even if they catch and properly fix a mistake, and maybe tip 15% if they're not great. Any worse, and they don't get the cash (I'm California, so they're getting 11 or 12 an hour anyway).
I detest tipping. I have nothing against food service workers but I have flat refused my entire life to work as a waiter/delivery driver where my wages were dependent on the kindness of a complete stranger. I know you actually can make decent cash doing it but I don't have the personality for it and I, quite frankly, don't agree with the practice.
Charge me more so you can pay your workers a fair wage. Don't put their ability to buy food, pay rent, etc solely on the customer, especially since so many customers can be royal assholes about it.
That being said, much as I don't agree with the act of tipping itself, I don't short change my servers/delivery drivers even if the service is bad. I tip minimum 20% or 5 dollars if 20% is less than that regardless of the quality of service and/or food. If the service is good or better, the tip goes up depending on just how good it was. But they're getting a decent tip off me no matter what.
But overall, I hate the practice. It's too easy to abuse. I'd rather pay more for my meal so they can make a good paycheck.
I checked. We have had a thread about tipping... which you (@annadane) posted! :P
God damn it. Sorry, lmao
A lot of places I eat here in the UK include service in the bill, so I don't leave a tip in that case. If service isn't included and the service has been above average, I'll usually leave 10-15% or so. But I'm perfectly happy to leave without a tip, especially if service has been bad.
The situation in the US where service staff rely on tips to get a liveable wage (or less) is barbaric but it's not so much a problem with tipping per se, more shitty business owners and/or a government which doesn't care to do anything about it.
I feel bad for the people working in those positions where they need to rely on tips, but I still dont tip consistently. I will tip if service is timely or you were exceptional. I'll happily vote for increases in minimum wage and, in the end, probably just eat out less if it costed more.
Is that server supposed to go to their landlord and say sorry guy, I feel really bad I can't pay you on time, this place isn't really exceptional?
You should vote for increases in minimum wage and support service worker unionization, but in the meantime there's no excuse not to tip. The system is set up such that you are actually costing a server money by not tipping.
Allow me to be clear: there is a reason that I've done everything in my power to avoid working in an environment where I have to work for tips, despite the fact that depending on where you live and which restaurant you work in, tipping can often pay significantly more than minimum wage.
I sympathize with the plight of someone working for tips, and would happily uproot the institution that's caused the problem. But there are also a wide array of other bottom-of-the-barrel jobs to look for while you're working as a server, if me not tipping is really that bad. Participating in the exercise (or at least, doing so as if it's mandatory) is only furthering the problem.
Just not enough to do the one meaningful thing and, you know, tip them?
If you don't want to participate, then don't go to places where tipping is expected. You're not sticking it to Big Waiter by not tipping when you go out and don't tip. You're feeding into a system of exploitation.
I'm against it and we generally don't tip here in my country. What happens is that every place has a 10% fee that comes in the bill and everyone pays that.
What i heard is that it doesn't even go to the waiter. I prefer places that doesn't have that policy, but the only ones are small neighborhood bars.
Nobody tips me when i fix their computers. Instead friends ask me outside my job hoping they get for free.
Here in Brazil tipping don’t exist, but bars and restaurants are authorized to charge a 10% fee on the check, which the client is not obligated to pay. Must people do. By law this fee goes directly to the staff. The only situation I don’t pay is when the service is truly awful. I think the American model would feel awkward and contentious for me. A flat fee is simpler and less prone to conflict.
I don't tip.
From my point of view, it's not my responsibility to pay a restaurant's employees directly; that's between the restaurant, and the employee. I'm paying for the food at menu price, plus tax. I expect the menu price to already cover the food, management, employee payment, general upkeep, and whatever other things the money actually goes towards.
I don't understand why it's considered "bad practice" to not tip in-regards to the above.
I don't tip the cashier at a grocery store after they check me out. I don't tip a vending machine after giving me my drink. I don't tip at fast-food places after ordering a cheeseburger to-go. I didn't tip the Gamestop employee after I bought a used game. And as far as I know, that's all generally-accepted and expected behavior. A portion of my payment goes towards that person's paycheck already. So why is a restaurant any different?
And in-general, I try not to spend much money, nor do I have that much to be spending. Why would I be giving out more money that required, especially if it's some variable optional amount? If I can pay $10 or $13 for the same exact thing, or any number in-between or above, I'm going to pay $10 :p
To hell with tips. Make the service more expensive.
In those cases tipping a dollar or two, instead of a percentage of the bill, is the right way to go. They are usually making actual minimum wage which is still criminally low, but at least better than what a server makes.
Abolish the service level wage and make every employer pay their employees the state minimum wage or better. Sorry the employers are too lazy/greedy to pay proper wages, and I am sorry the states are empowering the employers to pay less than minimum. Won't make much a difference for the consumer since we are expected to pay anyways and the state will see more in taxes since probably more than 50% of tips aren't taxes because they aren't claimed. If I were tipped (never been tipped in my life, purely hypothetical) I would never claim a cash tip as income come tax time. Sorry, just wouldn't do it. #taxationistheft
This is how it went at my old waiting job. The first day I started, one of the older waiters came to me and told me, "If you don't pocket tips, you won't make it."
I tip when I am in the US even though I think it is a horrible system - people should make a living wage without relying on the kindness of customers, and customers should be able to look at a price of an item on a menu and pay that price.
I want to get it out of the way that I think the tipping system is flawed and more thought should go into how service level work is compensated. HOWEVER, I would like to provide another perspective because it's a lot more complicated than "raise pay to a livable wage." It kinda seems like no one in this thread has worked a service level job where tips were involved? If you had, you'd know that most people who get paid through tips usually prefer it and you can walk out with a good chunk of money even on non-weekends, well passed minimum wage. It's a complicated topic and you could argue for the $15/hour or whatever but any service level job I've worked, we loved tips. I've ended shifts on multiple occasions with what would amount to $20/hour, and there is no employer in the world that would pay a waiter or pizza delivery driver that kind of money without tips. I can only think of a handful of times where I was stiffed. This is in the US and of course so it's kind of expected, which helps. As a consumer, I don't really mind tipping. If it's mediocre service, I give a mediocre tip; if it's great service, I give a great tip. It's kind of a check and balance system that ensures good service. I think people get too hung up on the livable wage thing. I think there definitely should be more thought put into how the system works, but like I said, it's more complicated than "give them more money."
I used to work for tips as a delivery driver and some nights I averaged over $20/hr, other days I was basically working for free because my meagre tips went right into the gas tank. You say there is no employer in the world who would pay a server that much, but from what I understand it's actually pretty common in Europe where they don't tip. I looked into emigrating and apparently it's really tough if you don't have advanced degrees because even restaurants pay a good wage and people stay in those jobs. It does make going out more expensive but that is only a bad thing if you own a restaurant.
I have tipped mediocrely a handful of times, but most of the time the server/driver isn't responsible for how fast your food gets to you. I know as a driver I wasn't standing around while pizzas were ready to go, but sometimes six people would call at the same time and there's no way to get it out faster. The only times I've tipped less than 20% were when the server just completely disappeared and we sat around with empty drinks for the whole meal.
I think it really depends on where you live, which is abundantly unfair and is a major reason I don't outright support the tipping system. I was fortunate enough to live near a wealthy town and delivered around there, easily making $13ish/hour most nights.
I (very briefly) looked into waiter salaries in France specifically and it really doesn't seem like they make much more, around $10-11/hour. It's hard to generalize Europe as a single place though, I'm guessing you had somewhere specific in mind that pays better!
And to your point about it not being the drivers responsibility, that is very true and I had been in that situation multiple times. It's especially unfair because really that is the fault of bad management.
While I don't agree with tipping, I've tried to stop but just can't. Its part of the fabric of my culture at this time and until a larger discussion takes place, it will remain the case.
I used to tip on take out -- I have stopped doing this.
One thing I strongly believe is that tips should be more evenly split between FOH and BOH. FOH is making a decent wage where BOH works insane hours for barely above minimum wage, and its just not right. Since they aren't customer-facing, some areas actually prevent them from receiving tips (citation needed.)
There are some places that I really don't want to tip at. This one Vietnamese place I go to a lot has absolutely no service. You get seated, I order right away, they drop off water, the basil, bean sprouts, lime, etc, and ultimately the bowl... and that's all you will ever see of them. If you need anything at all, you need to get it yourself. They don't want you to do this, but if you wait or try to get their attention, you'll die there.
Is that a $2 service? Not really.. but is it worth the bad blood? Not at all.
I wish we could drop the standard 15% - 20% and go with a 'keep the change' system, though.
In the UK tipping is present but mainly in restaurants, I've never seen it elsewhere.
Tips are not required and I wouldn't say there's as much politics surrounding them like in the USA. Employers are required to pay employees minimum wage though that amount can vary up to age 25 (https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates) which I consider to be unfair.
I get why some employees really like tipping since if you're in the right kind of business and do your job well you can make significantly more money, however it's still a system that allows businesses to underpay their staff.