I can't help but think that young people in general are just not interested in Star Wars or Marvel. Their key demographic seems to be men in their 30s, and being a man in my 30s, I stopped giving...
I can't help but think that young people in general are just not interested in Star Wars or Marvel. Their key demographic seems to be men in their 30s, and being a man in my 30s, I stopped giving a shit about Marvel movies after endgame, and I pretty much stopped being a star wars fan after episode 2 came out.
Everyone's just over it. I don't know any man in their 30s that says they're a marvel or star wars fan. I'm sure some kids are into it, but both franchises core audiences where always won over by nostalgia bait. This stuff stops being nostalgic when 90% of the official content for it has been released in the past 10 years though.
Every time I see a new Star Wars or Marvel announcement, I scratch my head and ask "who is this even for?", because I haven't met someone legitimately excited for them in years.
It's kind of amazing that despite being the biggest media conglomerate in human history, Disney still can't manage to come up with a new, interesting, captivating franchise. Isn't that basically their entire job?
Seems like a lot of studios have been throwing their eggs into the 80s/90s-kid nostalgia bait basket, buying IPs and churning out carefully designed-by-committee content specifically meant to...
Seems like a lot of studios have been throwing their eggs into the 80s/90s-kid nostalgia bait basket, buying IPs and churning out carefully designed-by-committee content specifically meant to appeal to gen-x (and some older millenials). And now that they've milked it beyond dry they're finally begining to realize that enough of us are sick of it that it may not be worthwhile to keep going at it so hard. Personally I'm glad. Hopefully now the studios do move on to exploiting stuff like Fortnite, Minecraft, Roblox, and skibidi toilets or whatever is appealing to the young'uns these days and leave my poor, beloved, forever-spoiled IPs alone.
I thought the Acolyte was one of the best Star Wars things to come out in recent years, but SW fans being the worst people in the world killed it before it had a chance. That and apparently it...
I thought the Acolyte was one of the best Star Wars things to come out in recent years, but SW fans being the worst people in the world killed it before it had a chance. That and apparently it cost an ungodly amount of money to make.
Oh man, as much as I want to agree with you because Star Wars fans are, indeed, the worst, I just can't. I don't think Star Wars fans killed The Acolyte as much as The Acolyte killed itself. There...
Oh man, as much as I want to agree with you because Star Wars fans are, indeed, the worst, I just can't. I don't think Star Wars fans killed The Acolyte as much as The Acolyte killed itself. There were so many compelling ideas that were vaguely brought up and then just left like a limp dick to spoil the orgy. The acting was all around terrible, the inability to actually show the Jedi as the ACAB cops they were, the Nightsisters' first screen appearance being a wet fart, Manny Jacinco being a cringe caricature of a "bad guy", Darth Plagueis just being a creepy little shadow... and the show cost the combined GDP of several small nations. Star Wars fans might have shit on it in a lot of underserved ways, but The Acolyte was dead on arrival.
I think that people view past Star Wars stuff with rose tinted glasses sometimes, because honestly bad acting, caricatures, and inability to follow through on ideas are kind of staples of the...
I think that people view past Star Wars stuff with rose tinted glasses sometimes, because honestly bad acting, caricatures, and inability to follow through on ideas are kind of staples of the series. And for the most part I thought the acting was fine, and I felt like the Rashomon episode really tied the whole series together in a way that was really neat.
Even the original trilogy is full of flaws, but people still view them with Rose glasses thick enough for Cyclops from the Xmen. The nostalgia for them stems from the fact that for the time that...
Even the original trilogy is full of flaws, but people still view them with Rose glasses thick enough for Cyclops from the Xmen. The nostalgia for them stems from the fact that for the time that they came out, they were a truly new experience. They were a showcase of ground breaking effects by ILM and the Jim Henson Creature shop, wrapped in a fine musical cloak by John Williams. It was a perfect storm of talent that supported mediocre writing and unimpressive acting (with some exceptions).
I'm convinced that if Return of the Jedi were made today Star Wars fanboys would shit themselves with rage and review bomb it. Although now that I think of it, RotJ does have Leia in the metal...
I'm convinced that if Return of the Jedi were made today Star Wars fanboys would shit themselves with rage and review bomb it. Although now that I think of it, RotJ does have Leia in the metal bikini, so maybe that would pacify the chuds. But the Ewoks are goofy as shit and there's a lot of screen times devoted to Ewoks in that movie.
Counterintuitively, I think creativity is to a large degree inversely proportional to size. The bigger the juggernaut, the bigger the success required to move the needle is — they can’t risk a...
It's kind of amazing that despite being the biggest media conglomerate in human history, Disney still can't manage to come up with a new, interesting, captivating franchise. Isn't that basically their entire job?
Counterintuitively, I think creativity is to a large degree inversely proportional to size. The bigger the juggernaut, the bigger the success required to move the needle is — they can’t risk a moderate success or just breaking even. They have to aim for massive hits each time, but that requires courting a proven audience with proven concepts. As we’re discussing here, that works until it doesn’t.
It’s been covered in other threads here, but it’s important to look at the eras that produced the IP they’ve been so arduously milking. Back then, moderate success was much more accepted and movies weren’t nearly as targeted to any particular audience (and if they did target an audience, were whole-hearted and totally unapologetic about it, as was the case with a lot of sci-fi). Studios gave writers and directors far more creative freedom and green lit projects more freely. That’s a much more fertile environment for novel ideas to become booming franchises.
Also, sometimes it just takes time to build a franchise. A lot of now-successful ones started off with lukewarm reception and only took off years after their movies had left the box office. That’s also not compatible with Disney’s instant hit desires.
I do think the assessment is correct that most of the fanbase for this are males in their 30s. They haven’t done a good job at creating new fans and have only alienated that core audience. I will...
I do think the assessment is correct that most of the fanbase for this are males in their 30s. They haven’t done a good job at creating new fans and have only alienated that core audience.
I will say Disney has tried in the past to create new franchises. Post-Pirates they attempted to do this with John Carter (even going as far to retitle the film so that “A Princess From Mars” wouldn’t come across as too feminine). The Lone Ranger was also an attempt at this. Not original IP but certainly an attempt was made. That’s actually why they bought Marvel and Lucasfilm because they didn’t have much to appeal to that crowd and they squandered those IPs anyway.
I'm now in my 30s and grew up loving Star Wars, my brother and I watched the original trilogy on VHS so many times we started wearing out the tapes. I remember thinking episodes 1-3 weren't as...
I'm now in my 30s and grew up loving Star Wars, my brother and I watched the original trilogy on VHS so many times we started wearing out the tapes. I remember thinking episodes 1-3 weren't as good as 4-6 but I still thought they were enjoyable. I wasn't the biggest fan in the world, but I did enjoy a number of the video games based on the setting. I'm also pretty sure I had Star Wars themed birthday at some point.
If anyone were to ask me I would have said I really enjoyed Star Wars and was looking forward to what came next. When Disney bought the IP I was somewhat hopeful, they could put in large budgets and they had so much existing lore to work with. Then I heard that they were making the Extended Universe non-canon, which I understood as a way to give themselves creative freedom and not needing to constrain their films to what was written to fill out the setting.
I saw episode 7 and I was not a fan of it, didn't enjoy the movie, and then only movie that was okay after that was Rogue One in my opinion. It felt like they decided to wing it with one of the biggest IPs in the world and ignore the goldmine of material they had at their finger tips that they could have adapted into films. Would people have been mad at them if they used elements from the books or comics? The answer is a definite no considering one of the biggest franchises in the world, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, is based on adapting comic books into movies.
I've completely lost interest in anything new that Disney puts out for Star Wars. If I went to revisit the series I'm planning to watch Project 4k77, 80, and 83 where they have scanned film from the original releases of episodes 4-6. When I see Star Wars in the news now it doesn't make me want to check out what they've put out, it reminds me that I didn't dive into the extend universe more as a kid and I have a mountain of books, comics, and games that were made before Disney bought the IP for me to go and check out to get my fix.
When my kids are older they'll get to see the original movies, and I don't think I'll introduce them to the Disney films unless they decide they want to watch them themselves.
Sounds like I'm similar in my opinion as you, in that episode 7 lost my interest; I can't remember if I bothered with episode 8 and for sure skipped episode 9. Most of the spinoff shows I saw...
Sounds like I'm similar in my opinion as you, in that episode 7 lost my interest; I can't remember if I bothered with episode 8 and for sure skipped episode 9. Most of the spinoff shows I saw maybe half an episode here or there in passing and, meh, not interested.
But I did enjoy Rogue 1 and so gave Andor a chance, and I'd absolutely recommend it if you haven't seen it. It's not just good Star Wars, it's really, really good TV.
I guess I should have left an asterisk for Andor. I've heard good things about it, and it's been on my list to watch at some point. I just don't watch very much TV these days, so I don't think...
I guess I should have left an asterisk for Andor. I've heard good things about it, and it's been on my list to watch at some point. I just don't watch very much TV these days, so I don't think I'll get to it anytime soon.
I love big settings like Star Wars since there is so much room for creators to do interesting things without needing to spend the time to create an entirely new setting and get everyone up to speed. I hope the success of Andor gets Disney to look at what they're doing there and try to make things that fans want to see.
My wife and I watched 4k77 a few weeks ago with Digital Noise Reduction (DNR), it was her first time ever seeing A New Hope, it looked pretty good to me. From what I hear, 4k80 has pretty poor...
My wife and I watched 4k77 a few weeks ago with Digital Noise Reduction (DNR), it was her first time ever seeing A New Hope, it looked pretty good to me.
From what I hear, 4k80 has pretty poor image quality, solely because the only film sources they could find were in tough shape. People recommend to just watch the Blu-Ray as Lucas made very few changes to it when he made the Special Editions.
4k83 people rave about as far as color/picture quality, so I'm excited for that.
We’ve just finished watching all the 4Kx releases. The star destroyer flyover gave me chills. There is no modern effect that will hold a candle to this after so much time. Magnificent work. I’m...
We’ve just finished watching all the 4Kx releases. The star destroyer flyover gave me chills. There is no modern effect that will hold a candle to this after so much time. Magnificent work. I’m really glad these original scans exist.
Agree. I can’t keep up with marvel. I tried. Wanda vision was cool but I quickly got overwhelmed. The Mandolorian season one is great television. I enjoyed the other seasons for what they were....
Agree. I can’t keep up with marvel. I tried. Wanda vision was cool but I quickly got overwhelmed.
The Mandolorian season one is great television. I enjoyed the other seasons for what they were.
Andor is great.
Skeleton crew. Is goonies in space, I enjoyed it for what it was.
To be honest though, I wouldn’t pay for Disney + except my kids like it.
Men in their 30s are old enough to have seen the prequels in the theaters. I was a huge star wars fan as a kid and read a lot of the books and played a lot of the games before the prequels came...
Men in their 30s are old enough to have seen the prequels in the theaters. I was a huge star wars fan as a kid and read a lot of the books and played a lot of the games before the prequels came out.
Post prequels, Star Wars was in a bit of a lul, so it would be a lot less likely to have star wars nostalgia as a 20 something.
I think people in their 40s were already very turned off by the prequels, since they pandered to a younger audience. 30s seems to be the sweet spot, and when I look at star wars super fans of the past 10 years or so, that roughly seems to be the biggest demographic.
I think Disney had this false belief that they needed to push these two brands into appealing more to women. That’s what Captain Marvel and The Marvels were all about, as well as She-Hulk...
I think Disney had this false belief that they needed to push these two brands into appealing more to women. That’s what Captain Marvel and The Marvels were all about, as well as She-Hulk including twerking and Megan The Stallion and a ton of millennial woman speak. Star Wars had that issue with The Acolyte especially with the creator of the show saying stuff that would not appeal to that core audience.
The issue with that thought process was that women, by and large, weren’t interested in these franchises. Like even Aquaman had a higher share of female viewers than Captain Marvel.
This new direction is probably why the Rey movie that was supposed to be directed by a woman was scrapped, and why instead they pivoted to fast tracking Shawn Levy (Deadpool and Wolverine) for a Star Wars film starring Ryan Gosling. It’s also why we’re never going to see Captain Marvel in the MCU ever again.
I have to take umbrage with dumping in "She-Hulk including twerking," since it was a throwaway post-credits gag. The way it's used is tantamount to complaining that Avengers was all about...
I have to take umbrage with dumping in "She-Hulk including twerking," since it was a throwaway post-credits gag. The way it's used is tantamount to complaining that Avengers was all about shawarma, especially when it's so often used as a predominant reason people (typically, people who never actually watched it) disliked the show.
I mean it did include it. Not that that’s what it was about, it’s just a thing that was in the show and went insanely viral in a negative way. It was emblematic of the tone of the show though, and...
I mean it did include it. Not that that’s what it was about, it’s just a thing that was in the show and went insanely viral in a negative way. It was emblematic of the tone of the show though, and how hard it was trying to appeal to women (including a long speech about how she had a harder life than Bruce Banner).
Did you watch the rest of She-Hulk? That scene actually had a great deal of significance later on. Spoilers here: The "twerking scene" is secretly recorded by an incel-type character and...
Did you watch the rest of She-Hulk? That scene actually had a great deal of significance later on.
Spoilers here:
The "twerking scene" is secretly recorded by an incel-type character and distributed online. The video is spread among 4-Chan style messageboards and becomes a big story in-universe. Online losers send Jen hatemail for it. So the scene itself is effectively bait for the exact online discourse that came from it.
IMO it is a brilliant scene that perfectly triggers exactly the right people.
Big fan of the Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel/Marvels, etc. line of shows and She Hulk was fun and her twerking was a silly thing. I genuinely liked having women in the lead roles. And some of my...
Big fan of the Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel/Marvels, etc. line of shows and She Hulk was fun and her twerking was a silly thing.
I genuinely liked having women in the lead roles. And some of my favorite characters no less. What sucks is that apparently I'm supposed to like watching all the male led movies and shows and the women led movies and shows, but men are apparently supposed to be unable to relate to that. So appealing to women was... Bad actually?
With the disclaimer that I’ve seen almost none of the post-Endgame Marvel stuff, I wonder if the framing might be more of an issue than there being women in lead roles. If not handled well it...
With the disclaimer that I’ve seen almost none of the post-Endgame Marvel stuff, I wonder if the framing might be more of an issue than there being women in lead roles. If not handled well it could come off as half-hearted trend chasing (“hello fellow kids” type of thing), particularly when it’s coming from an out of touch corporate giant.
From my point of view there’s definitely been a wider crisis in genuineness in recent years. Movies and shows feel engineered more than they do like they came from a creative individual’s heart and mind.
Maybe, but as I said, I found them enjoyable, and not out of step with the quality of the Marvel media around them. Which is to say if there's a Marvel problem, it's not a "women in Marvel"...
Maybe, but as I said, I found them enjoyable, and not out of step with the quality of the Marvel media around them. Which is to say if there's a Marvel problem, it's not a "women in Marvel" problem IMO.
But it's frustrating to hear "well they fucked up by pandering to women" essentially. It's as if the 'go woke go broke" folks feel like now, however many years later, they can revive the line and claim victory. (Even though most of the "woke" shit they complained about was a success)
I'll go ahead and agree with you. I haven't actually seen any of the movies/shows you've mentioned, but I have seen some other post endgame stuff, and basically all of it has been bad to mediocre...
I'll go ahead and agree with you. I haven't actually seen any of the movies/shows you've mentioned, but I have seen some other post endgame stuff, and basically all of it has been bad to mediocre and forgettable besides Deadpool & wolverine.
So singling out the women led franchises as being bad doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. From what I've seen, most of it has been bad.
I would say look at it this way: going so hard for a female audience didn’t yield more female fans. Men were still the ones primarily watching this stuff, they were still the biggest audience...
I would say look at it this way: going so hard for a female audience didn’t yield more female fans. Men were still the ones primarily watching this stuff, they were still the biggest audience share for The Marvels despite it being a big bomb. The 2019 version of Charlie’s Angels, despite bombing and finger wagging from the films director, was also mostly watched by men.
It wasn’t even so much just that they had female leads as much as they leaned into the importance of that stuff. The trailer for Captain Marvel had a “Herstory” thing when it said “a Hero” as the o faded out. Add that in with a lot of stuff about how men are incompetent compared to their female counterparts (Nick Fury was relegated to comedic relief for example). Along with some girls get it done moments and you have shameless pandering as opposed to “it’s just a movie with a female lead.”
At some point this stuff just starts alienating the core demographic (Agatha All Along and Iron Heart being recent examples of this misdirection). Not a “go woke go broke” but they were chasing an audience that never really cared for them. Imagine if they tried making Colleen Hoover adaptations more “male friendly” to broaden their audience. What do we think happens there, men still won’t watch it and the female core will end up getting alienated.
First, I think it's hilarious you used Colleen Hoover as it's not part of my life experience at all, and I don't care how they change her books, I wouldn't be interested. But you're talking about...
Exemplary
First, I think it's hilarious you used Colleen Hoover as it's not part of my life experience at all, and I don't care how they change her books, I wouldn't be interested. But you're talking about changing things instead of accurately portraying their main characters. Coraline is a movie based on a book with a young girl MC who had a whole boy character added which while it gave her someone to talk to it actively changed her motivations too. It was, IMO, a bad move. But that isn't the issue here.
Aside:
(And I personally loved Agatha All Along it was queer and joyful and left Agatha a villain! That moment in Endgame was super cheesy but wasn't in Captain Marvel or any of the shows under discussion. (And anecdotally many little girls loved it))
I think the problem ultimately is that the "core demographic" is assumed to be white men of whatever age, and the women and POC who have loved Marvel and watched all those movies are assumed to come along for the ride. But when you make a movie for a different hero, it's not "value added" and somehow the answer is because the women's movies uniquely sucked? As if Captain America punching Nazis isn't a male power fantasy the same way Captain Marvel is a female power fantasy?
I see a societal issue when men cannot enjoy women characters because in their own movie/show they're portrayed as the biggest badasses. Even though that's how it is for every hero's movies. Like yeah Hulk is strongest except when he's in someone else's comic he's not always. When he's in she-hulk's show she may have things worse than him. The comics have always been this way. This feels like the classic xkcd with a twist. When the women's movies bomb (and even when they don't) it's because they're women. But when everything is bombing, it's Marvel.
Men still have 2x the leading roles that women do in Hollywood. That isn't even touching people of color and women of color more broadly. Sure make movies for men, just don't blame men's lack of interest in movies with women as MC on women's movies.
I'm just tagging it on here: She-Hulk never says her life is worse than Bruce-Hulk. She says she can't be an outward little bitch baby and rage about it because of societal expectations. If a...
I'm just tagging it on here: She-Hulk never says her life is worse than Bruce-Hulk. She says she can't be an outward little bitch baby and rage about it because of societal expectations. If a bitch baby boy wants to hear that as "my life is worse than yours" they will never meet you, or I, or anyone, in the middle and admit that the problem isn't the media, but themselves.
Truth, she gave all the reasons she'd learned to control her anger and that she'd done it more than him. But even if I accepted the framing of "she has it worse than him and is better than him for...
Truth, she gave all the reasons she'd learned to control her anger and that she'd done it more than him. But even if I accepted the framing of "she has it worse than him and is better than him for it" being stronger/better in her own show is literally ripped straight from the comics. Everyone is better in their own title than they are in a crossover.
Appreciate the clarification though, because you're right, she's just saying she can control her shit. Which is also fairly true to the comics, not changed for the movies, given that the comics range quite a bit over the decades.
I thought She-Hulk was great and Captain Marvel was my favourite hero in the MCU, but sadly the reality is that the above comment is right.. fact was that it really did create pushback some of the...
but men are apparently supposed to be unable to relate to that
I thought She-Hulk was great and Captain Marvel was my favourite hero in the MCU, but sadly the reality is that the above comment is right.. fact was that it really did create pushback some of the core fanbase away. No clue why. But it somehow was the case. Maybe because it happened during the comedown of #metoo which seen a lot of pushback since then, probably around Depp/Heard, in those spaces.
People review bombed them before they ever came out and literally didn't like that Carol Danvers didn't smile more. (And attacked Brie Larson directly.) I don't think the majority was ever against...
People review bombed them before they ever came out and literally didn't like that Carol Danvers didn't smile more. (And attacked Brie Larson directly.) I don't think the majority was ever against women leads, but I think the conversation was allowed to be shaped by those more extreme views, and that was sided by the Marvel leadership who was opposed to those women (and other minority) led projects which is why Black Panther, Black Widow, and Captain Marvel didn't get movies until so late in the game.
Which meant that especially the sequels to those films suffered from the general post-pandemic marvel fatigue which also means that they blame that fatigue on those women/minority led films.
The women I know liked those films and she-hulk, if they were watching shows on Disney+ or were still watching Marvel movies when The Marvels came out.
(Albeit being male) I have really enjoyed Ms Marvel series. The pakistani family setting was super fun. Haven't watched anything else (from Marvel) since then. My wife has mildly enjoyed the series.
(Albeit being male) I have really enjoyed Ms Marvel series. The pakistani family setting was super fun. Haven't watched anything else (from Marvel) since then. My wife has mildly enjoyed the series.
Regardless of gender, I think we've seen just how important new IP is for production houses. Leaning so heavily into rehashing the old hits has proven to be a very risky strategy. A friend...
Regardless of gender, I think we've seen just how
important new IP is for production houses. Leaning so heavily into rehashing the old hits has proven to be a very risky strategy. A friend described it as Expectation Debt. There is no way to properly capture the market because everyone has their own relationship with the property. You are inevitably going to piss off some part of the audience. The worst case can see a special effort to sabotage the new work in an misguided attempt to force their impossible ideal into reality. At the same time any new audience member will be overwhelmed by the now days worth of required reading to get up to speed.
With an original IP, you have a lot more control. The early Star Wars was the blueprint. Go to market cheap and quickly. Minimal merchandise and wide but ambiguous advertising. Let the audience built with a steady escalation and play into the scarcity. Let the demand grow and then you fill the gap.
And I think it's also important for kids to have things that are not just hand-me-downs. It will let them develop culture and community that is not just going through the motions with parents. Like my daughter can identify Heros like spiderman or Batman and sort of understand super powers. But she loves KPop Demon Hunters. I thought the movie was surprisingly good and enjoyed it. But this is my kids thing for the moment. Same way I had DBZ or Batman Animated.
I think that extending IPs can work while pissing off a negligible number of fans, but it’s critical that the extension be as respectful of the original as possible and specifically avoid making...
I think that extending IPs can work while pissing off a negligible number of fans, but it’s critical that the extension be as respectful of the original as possible and specifically avoid making changes for the sake of change or out of an attempt by the creators involved to stamp their own brand on the franchise.
The latter of those has been a frequent recurring problem. You have showrunners, movie directors, etc who enter the IP like a bull in a china shop, breaking things left and right to try to mold the IP to their image. Of course that’s going to anger people, and if the changes aren’t well executed (usually they aren’t) it’s not going to pull in very many new fans either.
That isn’t to say that creators can’t make use of their creative freedoms when adapting and extending. They can, but it needs to more careful, guided, and fully mindful of the original and its creator. Creators that do this are the ones that go down in history. Take Mamoru Oshii’s adaptation of Ghost In the Shell, which is much more cerebral than the source material for example and has been enormously well-received even though the movie is a very different creature than the manga.
Reminds me of the Netflix adaptation of the Witcher. Rumours are the people behind the show actively hate the source material. IMO this already showed in the first season but it got progressively...
The latter of those has been a frequent recurring problem. You have showrunners, movie directors, etc who enter the IP like a bull in a china shop, breaking things left and right to try to mold the IP to their image. Of course that’s going to anger people, and if the changes aren’t well executed (usually they aren’t) it’s not going to pull in very many new fans either.
Reminds me of the Netflix adaptation of the Witcher. Rumours are the people behind the show actively hate the source material. IMO this already showed in the first season but it got progressively worse
Keeping IPs alive works just fine. I think the bigger issue comes from large companies collecting IP like pokemon. It will always shift the prime directive of the IP and how things are handled....
Keeping IPs alive works just fine. I think the bigger issue comes from large companies collecting IP like pokemon. It will always shift the prime directive of the IP and how things are handled. Star Wars stayed relevant forever without Disney.
I think Star Wars stayed relevant forever in a much different ecosphere and with a different strategy than we have now. Star Wars didn't release any major media for 15+ years, which kept it as a...
I think Star Wars stayed relevant forever in a much different ecosphere and with a different strategy than we have now. Star Wars didn't release any major media for 15+ years, which kept it as a fun not-fully-fleshed-out universe to the general public. "They" (Lucas) took a more guiding hand role while taking their cut of all the nerd media released in those 15 years, allowing nerds to do a lot of the heavy lifting (and fighting about canon!) Disney will never be happy taking a cut, they have to take the cake and they want a lot of cake. They will dilute their own IP damnit!
I think you're joking but honest to god I'd love to see a good adaptation of The Chronicles of Prydain, it'd make a great series. Follow that up with the Westmark trilogy and I'd scream.
I think you're joking but honest to god I'd love to see a good adaptation of The Chronicles of Prydain, it'd make a great series. Follow that up with the Westmark trilogy and I'd scream.
I know they are joking but I, too, would like an actual try and The Chronicles of Prydain. A little child Requirement would be overjoyed to overwrite the animated film with a better version.
I know they are joking but I, too, would like an actual try and The Chronicles of Prydain. A little child Requirement would be overjoyed to overwrite the animated film with a better version.
My lukewarm take on this is that Disney’s biggest problem is its own name. Their original brand identity is so powerful that it distorts everything it comes into contact with. Unfortunately for...
My lukewarm take on this is that Disney’s biggest problem is its own name. Their original brand identity is so powerful that it distorts everything it comes into contact with. Unfortunately for them, they will never put Disney under the umbrella of a larger and distinctly non-mouse/princess organization. Their issues will thus persist.
I can't help but think that young people in general are just not interested in Star Wars or Marvel. Their key demographic seems to be men in their 30s, and being a man in my 30s, I stopped giving a shit about Marvel movies after endgame, and I pretty much stopped being a star wars fan after episode 2 came out.
Everyone's just over it. I don't know any man in their 30s that says they're a marvel or star wars fan. I'm sure some kids are into it, but both franchises core audiences where always won over by nostalgia bait. This stuff stops being nostalgic when 90% of the official content for it has been released in the past 10 years though.
Every time I see a new Star Wars or Marvel announcement, I scratch my head and ask "who is this even for?", because I haven't met someone legitimately excited for them in years.
It's kind of amazing that despite being the biggest media conglomerate in human history, Disney still can't manage to come up with a new, interesting, captivating franchise. Isn't that basically their entire job?
Seems like a lot of studios have been throwing their eggs into the 80s/90s-kid nostalgia bait basket, buying IPs and churning out carefully designed-by-committee content specifically meant to appeal to gen-x (and some older millenials). And now that they've milked it beyond dry they're finally begining to realize that enough of us are sick of it that it may not be worthwhile to keep going at it so hard. Personally I'm glad. Hopefully now the studios do move on to exploiting stuff like Fortnite, Minecraft, Roblox, and skibidi toilets or whatever is appealing to the young'uns these days and leave my poor, beloved, forever-spoiled IPs alone.
I thought the Acolyte was one of the best Star Wars things to come out in recent years, but SW fans being the worst people in the world killed it before it had a chance. That and apparently it cost an ungodly amount of money to make.
Oh man, as much as I want to agree with you because Star Wars fans are, indeed, the worst, I just can't. I don't think Star Wars fans killed The Acolyte as much as The Acolyte killed itself. There were so many compelling ideas that were vaguely brought up and then just left like a limp dick to spoil the orgy. The acting was all around terrible, the inability to actually show the Jedi as the ACAB cops they were, the Nightsisters' first screen appearance being a wet fart, Manny Jacinco being a cringe caricature of a "bad guy", Darth Plagueis just being a creepy little shadow... and the show cost the combined GDP of several small nations. Star Wars fans might have shit on it in a lot of underserved ways, but The Acolyte was dead on arrival.
I think that people view past Star Wars stuff with rose tinted glasses sometimes, because honestly bad acting, caricatures, and inability to follow through on ideas are kind of staples of the series. And for the most part I thought the acting was fine, and I felt like the Rashomon episode really tied the whole series together in a way that was really neat.
Even the original trilogy is full of flaws, but people still view them with Rose glasses thick enough for Cyclops from the Xmen. The nostalgia for them stems from the fact that for the time that they came out, they were a truly new experience. They were a showcase of ground breaking effects by ILM and the Jim Henson Creature shop, wrapped in a fine musical cloak by John Williams. It was a perfect storm of talent that supported mediocre writing and unimpressive acting (with some exceptions).
I'm convinced that if Return of the Jedi were made today Star Wars fanboys would shit themselves with rage and review bomb it. Although now that I think of it, RotJ does have Leia in the metal bikini, so maybe that would pacify the chuds. But the Ewoks are goofy as shit and there's a lot of screen times devoted to Ewoks in that movie.
Counterintuitively, I think creativity is to a large degree inversely proportional to size. The bigger the juggernaut, the bigger the success required to move the needle is — they can’t risk a moderate success or just breaking even. They have to aim for massive hits each time, but that requires courting a proven audience with proven concepts. As we’re discussing here, that works until it doesn’t.
It’s been covered in other threads here, but it’s important to look at the eras that produced the IP they’ve been so arduously milking. Back then, moderate success was much more accepted and movies weren’t nearly as targeted to any particular audience (and if they did target an audience, were whole-hearted and totally unapologetic about it, as was the case with a lot of sci-fi). Studios gave writers and directors far more creative freedom and green lit projects more freely. That’s a much more fertile environment for novel ideas to become booming franchises.
Also, sometimes it just takes time to build a franchise. A lot of now-successful ones started off with lukewarm reception and only took off years after their movies had left the box office. That’s also not compatible with Disney’s instant hit desires.
I do think the assessment is correct that most of the fanbase for this are males in their 30s. They haven’t done a good job at creating new fans and have only alienated that core audience.
I will say Disney has tried in the past to create new franchises. Post-Pirates they attempted to do this with John Carter (even going as far to retitle the film so that “A Princess From Mars” wouldn’t come across as too feminine). The Lone Ranger was also an attempt at this. Not original IP but certainly an attempt was made. That’s actually why they bought Marvel and Lucasfilm because they didn’t have much to appeal to that crowd and they squandered those IPs anyway.
I'm now in my 30s and grew up loving Star Wars, my brother and I watched the original trilogy on VHS so many times we started wearing out the tapes. I remember thinking episodes 1-3 weren't as good as 4-6 but I still thought they were enjoyable. I wasn't the biggest fan in the world, but I did enjoy a number of the video games based on the setting. I'm also pretty sure I had Star Wars themed birthday at some point.
If anyone were to ask me I would have said I really enjoyed Star Wars and was looking forward to what came next. When Disney bought the IP I was somewhat hopeful, they could put in large budgets and they had so much existing lore to work with. Then I heard that they were making the Extended Universe non-canon, which I understood as a way to give themselves creative freedom and not needing to constrain their films to what was written to fill out the setting.
I saw episode 7 and I was not a fan of it, didn't enjoy the movie, and then only movie that was okay after that was Rogue One in my opinion. It felt like they decided to wing it with one of the biggest IPs in the world and ignore the goldmine of material they had at their finger tips that they could have adapted into films. Would people have been mad at them if they used elements from the books or comics? The answer is a definite no considering one of the biggest franchises in the world, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, is based on adapting comic books into movies.
I've completely lost interest in anything new that Disney puts out for Star Wars. If I went to revisit the series I'm planning to watch Project 4k77, 80, and 83 where they have scanned film from the original releases of episodes 4-6. When I see Star Wars in the news now it doesn't make me want to check out what they've put out, it reminds me that I didn't dive into the extend universe more as a kid and I have a mountain of books, comics, and games that were made before Disney bought the IP for me to go and check out to get my fix.
When my kids are older they'll get to see the original movies, and I don't think I'll introduce them to the Disney films unless they decide they want to watch them themselves.
Sounds like I'm similar in my opinion as you, in that episode 7 lost my interest; I can't remember if I bothered with episode 8 and for sure skipped episode 9. Most of the spinoff shows I saw maybe half an episode here or there in passing and, meh, not interested.
But I did enjoy Rogue 1 and so gave Andor a chance, and I'd absolutely recommend it if you haven't seen it. It's not just good Star Wars, it's really, really good TV.
I guess I should have left an asterisk for Andor. I've heard good things about it, and it's been on my list to watch at some point. I just don't watch very much TV these days, so I don't think I'll get to it anytime soon.
I love big settings like Star Wars since there is so much room for creators to do interesting things without needing to spend the time to create an entirely new setting and get everyone up to speed. I hope the success of Andor gets Disney to look at what they're doing there and try to make things that fans want to see.
My wife and I watched 4k77 a few weeks ago with Digital Noise Reduction (DNR), it was her first time ever seeing A New Hope, it looked pretty good to me.
From what I hear, 4k80 has pretty poor image quality, solely because the only film sources they could find were in tough shape. People recommend to just watch the Blu-Ray as Lucas made very few changes to it when he made the Special Editions.
4k83 people rave about as far as color/picture quality, so I'm excited for that.
We’ve just finished watching all the 4Kx releases. The star destroyer flyover gave me chills. There is no modern effect that will hold a candle to this after so much time. Magnificent work. I’m really glad these original scans exist.
What's this obsession with Harrison Ford's youthful skin that's going around recently? :-)
Agree. I can’t keep up with marvel. I tried. Wanda vision was cool but I quickly got overwhelmed.
The Mandolorian season one is great television. I enjoyed the other seasons for what they were.
Andor is great.
Skeleton crew. Is goonies in space, I enjoyed it for what it was.
To be honest though, I wouldn’t pay for Disney + except my kids like it.
Can you please explain why 30s? Not 40s not 20s? Because of generations?
Men in their 30s are old enough to have seen the prequels in the theaters. I was a huge star wars fan as a kid and read a lot of the books and played a lot of the games before the prequels came out.
Post prequels, Star Wars was in a bit of a lul, so it would be a lot less likely to have star wars nostalgia as a 20 something.
I think people in their 40s were already very turned off by the prequels, since they pandered to a younger audience. 30s seems to be the sweet spot, and when I look at star wars super fans of the past 10 years or so, that roughly seems to be the biggest demographic.
I think Disney had this false belief that they needed to push these two brands into appealing more to women. That’s what Captain Marvel and The Marvels were all about, as well as She-Hulk including twerking and Megan The Stallion and a ton of millennial woman speak. Star Wars had that issue with The Acolyte especially with the creator of the show saying stuff that would not appeal to that core audience.
The issue with that thought process was that women, by and large, weren’t interested in these franchises. Like even Aquaman had a higher share of female viewers than Captain Marvel.
This new direction is probably why the Rey movie that was supposed to be directed by a woman was scrapped, and why instead they pivoted to fast tracking Shawn Levy (Deadpool and Wolverine) for a Star Wars film starring Ryan Gosling. It’s also why we’re never going to see Captain Marvel in the MCU ever again.
I have to take umbrage with dumping in "She-Hulk including twerking," since it was a throwaway post-credits gag. The way it's used is tantamount to complaining that Avengers was all about shawarma, especially when it's so often used as a predominant reason people (typically, people who never actually watched it) disliked the show.
I mean it did include it. Not that that’s what it was about, it’s just a thing that was in the show and went insanely viral in a negative way. It was emblematic of the tone of the show though, and how hard it was trying to appeal to women (including a long speech about how she had a harder life than Bruce Banner).
Did you watch the rest of She-Hulk? That scene actually had a great deal of significance later on.
Spoilers here:
The "twerking scene" is secretly recorded by an incel-type character and distributed online. The video is spread among 4-Chan style messageboards and becomes a big story in-universe. Online losers send Jen hatemail for it. So the scene itself is effectively bait for the exact online discourse that came from it.
IMO it is a brilliant scene that perfectly triggers exactly the right people.
Big fan of the Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel/Marvels, etc. line of shows and She Hulk was fun and her twerking was a silly thing.
I genuinely liked having women in the lead roles. And some of my favorite characters no less. What sucks is that apparently I'm supposed to like watching all the male led movies and shows and the women led movies and shows, but men are apparently supposed to be unable to relate to that. So appealing to women was... Bad actually?
With the disclaimer that I’ve seen almost none of the post-Endgame Marvel stuff, I wonder if the framing might be more of an issue than there being women in lead roles. If not handled well it could come off as half-hearted trend chasing (“hello fellow kids” type of thing), particularly when it’s coming from an out of touch corporate giant.
From my point of view there’s definitely been a wider crisis in genuineness in recent years. Movies and shows feel engineered more than they do like they came from a creative individual’s heart and mind.
Maybe, but as I said, I found them enjoyable, and not out of step with the quality of the Marvel media around them. Which is to say if there's a Marvel problem, it's not a "women in Marvel" problem IMO.
But it's frustrating to hear "well they fucked up by pandering to women" essentially. It's as if the 'go woke go broke" folks feel like now, however many years later, they can revive the line and claim victory. (Even though most of the "woke" shit they complained about was a success)
I'll go ahead and agree with you. I haven't actually seen any of the movies/shows you've mentioned, but I have seen some other post endgame stuff, and basically all of it has been bad to mediocre and forgettable besides Deadpool & wolverine.
So singling out the women led franchises as being bad doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. From what I've seen, most of it has been bad.
I would say look at it this way: going so hard for a female audience didn’t yield more female fans. Men were still the ones primarily watching this stuff, they were still the biggest audience share for The Marvels despite it being a big bomb. The 2019 version of Charlie’s Angels, despite bombing and finger wagging from the films director, was also mostly watched by men.
It wasn’t even so much just that they had female leads as much as they leaned into the importance of that stuff. The trailer for Captain Marvel had a “Herstory” thing when it said “a Hero” as the o faded out. Add that in with a lot of stuff about how men are incompetent compared to their female counterparts (Nick Fury was relegated to comedic relief for example). Along with some girls get it done moments and you have shameless pandering as opposed to “it’s just a movie with a female lead.”
At some point this stuff just starts alienating the core demographic (Agatha All Along and Iron Heart being recent examples of this misdirection). Not a “go woke go broke” but they were chasing an audience that never really cared for them. Imagine if they tried making Colleen Hoover adaptations more “male friendly” to broaden their audience. What do we think happens there, men still won’t watch it and the female core will end up getting alienated.
First, I think it's hilarious you used Colleen Hoover as it's not part of my life experience at all, and I don't care how they change her books, I wouldn't be interested. But you're talking about changing things instead of accurately portraying their main characters. Coraline is a movie based on a book with a young girl MC who had a whole boy character added which while it gave her someone to talk to it actively changed her motivations too. It was, IMO, a bad move. But that isn't the issue here.
Aside:
(And I personally loved Agatha All Along it was queer and joyful and left Agatha a villain! That moment in Endgame was super cheesy but wasn't in Captain Marvel or any of the shows under discussion. (And anecdotally many little girls loved it))
I think the problem ultimately is that the "core demographic" is assumed to be white men of whatever age, and the women and POC who have loved Marvel and watched all those movies are assumed to come along for the ride. But when you make a movie for a different hero, it's not "value added" and somehow the answer is because the women's movies uniquely sucked? As if Captain America punching Nazis isn't a male power fantasy the same way Captain Marvel is a female power fantasy?
I see a societal issue when men cannot enjoy women characters because in their own movie/show they're portrayed as the biggest badasses. Even though that's how it is for every hero's movies. Like yeah Hulk is strongest except when he's in someone else's comic he's not always. When he's in she-hulk's show she may have things worse than him. The comics have always been this way. This feels like the classic xkcd with a twist. When the women's movies bomb (and even when they don't) it's because they're women. But when everything is bombing, it's Marvel.
Men still have 2x the leading roles that women do in Hollywood. That isn't even touching people of color and women of color more broadly. Sure make movies for men, just don't blame men's lack of interest in movies with women as MC on women's movies.
I'm just tagging it on here: She-Hulk never says her life is worse than Bruce-Hulk. She says she can't be an outward little bitch baby and rage about it because of societal expectations. If a bitch baby boy wants to hear that as "my life is worse than yours" they will never meet you, or I, or anyone, in the middle and admit that the problem isn't the media, but themselves.
Truth, she gave all the reasons she'd learned to control her anger and that she'd done it more than him. But even if I accepted the framing of "she has it worse than him and is better than him for it" being stronger/better in her own show is literally ripped straight from the comics. Everyone is better in their own title than they are in a crossover.
Appreciate the clarification though, because you're right, she's just saying she can control her shit. Which is also fairly true to the comics, not changed for the movies, given that the comics range quite a bit over the decades.
I thought She-Hulk was great and Captain Marvel was my favourite hero in the MCU, but sadly the reality is that the above comment is right.. fact was that it really did create pushback some of the core fanbase away. No clue why. But it somehow was the case. Maybe because it happened during the comedown of #metoo which seen a lot of pushback since then, probably around Depp/Heard, in those spaces.
People review bombed them before they ever came out and literally didn't like that Carol Danvers didn't smile more. (And attacked Brie Larson directly.) I don't think the majority was ever against women leads, but I think the conversation was allowed to be shaped by those more extreme views, and that was sided by the Marvel leadership who was opposed to those women (and other minority) led projects which is why Black Panther, Black Widow, and Captain Marvel didn't get movies until so late in the game.
Which meant that especially the sequels to those films suffered from the general post-pandemic marvel fatigue which also means that they blame that fatigue on those women/minority led films.
The women I know liked those films and she-hulk, if they were watching shows on Disney+ or were still watching Marvel movies when The Marvels came out.
Unfortunately I think it’s because the manosphere keeps growing. That crowd will always be the largest.
(Albeit being male) I have really enjoyed Ms Marvel series. The pakistani family setting was super fun. Haven't watched anything else (from Marvel) since then. My wife has mildly enjoyed the series.
Regardless of gender, I think we've seen just how
important new IP is for production houses. Leaning so heavily into rehashing the old hits has proven to be a very risky strategy. A friend described it as Expectation Debt. There is no way to properly capture the market because everyone has their own relationship with the property. You are inevitably going to piss off some part of the audience. The worst case can see a special effort to sabotage the new work in an misguided attempt to force their impossible ideal into reality. At the same time any new audience member will be overwhelmed by the now days worth of required reading to get up to speed.
With an original IP, you have a lot more control. The early Star Wars was the blueprint. Go to market cheap and quickly. Minimal merchandise and wide but ambiguous advertising. Let the audience built with a steady escalation and play into the scarcity. Let the demand grow and then you fill the gap.
And I think it's also important for kids to have things that are not just hand-me-downs. It will let them develop culture and community that is not just going through the motions with parents. Like my daughter can identify Heros like spiderman or Batman and sort of understand super powers. But she loves KPop Demon Hunters. I thought the movie was surprisingly good and enjoyed it. But this is my kids thing for the moment. Same way I had DBZ or Batman Animated.
I think that extending IPs can work while pissing off a negligible number of fans, but it’s critical that the extension be as respectful of the original as possible and specifically avoid making changes for the sake of change or out of an attempt by the creators involved to stamp their own brand on the franchise.
The latter of those has been a frequent recurring problem. You have showrunners, movie directors, etc who enter the IP like a bull in a china shop, breaking things left and right to try to mold the IP to their image. Of course that’s going to anger people, and if the changes aren’t well executed (usually they aren’t) it’s not going to pull in very many new fans either.
That isn’t to say that creators can’t make use of their creative freedoms when adapting and extending. They can, but it needs to more careful, guided, and fully mindful of the original and its creator. Creators that do this are the ones that go down in history. Take Mamoru Oshii’s adaptation of Ghost In the Shell, which is much more cerebral than the source material for example and has been enormously well-received even though the movie is a very different creature than the manga.
Reminds me of the Netflix adaptation of the Witcher. Rumours are the people behind the show actively hate the source material. IMO this already showed in the first season but it got progressively worse
Keeping IPs alive works just fine. I think the bigger issue comes from large companies collecting IP like pokemon. It will always shift the prime directive of the IP and how things are handled. Star Wars stayed relevant forever without Disney.
I think Star Wars stayed relevant forever in a much different ecosphere and with a different strategy than we have now. Star Wars didn't release any major media for 15+ years, which kept it as a fun not-fully-fleshed-out universe to the general public. "They" (Lucas) took a more guiding hand role while taking their cut of all the nerd media released in those 15 years, allowing nerds to do a lot of the heavy lifting (and fighting about canon!) Disney will never be happy taking a cut, they have to take the cake and they want a lot of cake. They will dilute their own IP damnit!
Obviously, they should do a live-action remake of The Black Cauldron
I think you're joking but honest to god I'd love to see a good adaptation of The Chronicles of Prydain, it'd make a great series. Follow that up with the Westmark trilogy and I'd scream.
I know they are joking but I, too, would like an actual try and The Chronicles of Prydain. A little child Requirement would be overjoyed to overwrite the animated film with a better version.
My lukewarm take on this is that Disney’s biggest problem is its own name. Their original brand identity is so powerful that it distorts everything it comes into contact with. Unfortunately for them, they will never put Disney under the umbrella of a larger and distinctly non-mouse/princess organization. Their issues will thus persist.