Heads up folks, this deals with sexual assault. If you haven't heard of the Cornell sexual assault case in the news, a woman has filed a civil suit against her 7 alleged assaulters, all part of a...
Exemplary
Heads up folks, this deals with sexual assault.
If you haven't heard of the Cornell sexual assault case in the news, a woman has filed a civil suit against her 7 alleged assaulters, all part of a fraternity at Cornell, where at a fraternity house they didn't just rape her, they offered her out in the house group chat. The university Title IX investigation allegedly ended with 2 expulsions and 5 essays/apologies. The criminal case was dropped but has recently been reopened.
There is a lot of not just anger but rage in women's spaces as this story has come out. At the seven students, at the university, at the DA... But also at every single other man in that group chat. Not one objected in the chat to an offer of "free pussy". Not one called the police. Not one physically intervened. Maybe one was a witness to an investigation, but there's no sign of anything and I'm not inclined to make positive assumptions.
People tend to think of it as a dichotomy of good vs bad men, and therefore "not all men" is separating out the vast majority of good men from these few bad actors. 15% of the group chat raped her, allegedly, but the other 85% said nothing. Comment sections already include accusations of her lying out of regret, calling her names, etc. This is where the rage comes from. There are no self-proclaimed protectors to be found. There is only silence, doubt, and mockery.
This is genuinely what I expect to happen. I am not shocked by this, even as I'm so very angry about what happened to her, and every Title IX sexual assault situation I deal with every day; this is normal. This is what "rape culture" means.
I hesitated to even post this topic but I think it's important, and I hope that for folks who are not in spaces with women shouting "You say not all men but not one of you spoke up? Not a single man?!" in their frustration, anger, grief, and their own trauma, it will inspire empathy and understanding. This is a horrific thing in isolation. But it's not isolated. And it's something we have to address as a society, especially in the face of increased calls for the revocation of women's rights.
ETA: New Cornell Statement clarified that there were expulsions and suspensions, but no "just an essay" outcomes. I suspect Jane Doe did not get notified of the sanctions imposed and only had word of mouth for her lawsuit, and it sounds like she had to/chose to push for a full hearing (the respondents may have) where she had to face her accusers, though questioning should have happened through intermediaries.... I've been the intermediary assisting a complainant and it can still be very intimidating, even virtually. Credit to her still.
Indeed. When I was an undergrad at Cornell (~2016), I had a friend who was in a fraternity. I knew him through Cayuga's Watchers, a non-profit that trained undergrads on how to be...
This is not a dark chapter in Cornell’s history, it’s a morbid pattern
Indeed.
But also at every single other man in that group chat. Not one objected in the chat to an offer of "free pussy". Not one called the police. Not one physically intervened. Maybe one was a witness to an investigation, but there's no sign of anything at all.
When I was an undergrad at Cornell (~2016), I had a friend who was in a fraternity. I knew him through Cayuga's Watchers, a non-profit that trained undergrads on how to be non-confrontational, active bystanders around dangerous/risky drinking behaviors.
At the end of a frat party, one of the older fraternity members was carrying a nearly unconscious woman upstairs with him. My friend gently interrupted him, suggested that they find the woman's friends, and found someone to take her back to her dorm and keep an eye on her. She ended up being fine.
My friend, on the other hand, was punched in the face in front of his entire fraternity for interrupting the other member's opportunity to "get laid." Not one single member of his fraternity, all of whom knew exactly what had happened, did a thing about it.
Greek life at Cornell is an absolute plague. It reinforces the most hideous and violent tendencies of college-age men (and women, for that matter — the hazing that happened at the "top tier" Cornell sororities was horrifying). The administration knows this, just like they know that their insistence on banning freshmen from attending official Greek life events during their first semester drives all of the social events into unmonitored, unregulated parties in college town, which leads to more hospitalizations. But those happen off campus, so they don't affect the university statistics, so they don't care.
I appreciate your friend, and wish he'd gotten justice for that punch. And I appreciate the work you did. We have student orgs, see student employees, professional staff, all trying to make things...
I appreciate your friend, and wish he'd gotten justice for that punch. And I appreciate the work you did. We have student orgs, see student employees, professional staff, all trying to make things safer. But we cannot be everywhere and we can't stop everything.
We could create a world where every other dude there would also have stood up, and would never have let your friend get hit.
Ultimately, while I met a lot of good people at Cornell (especially by my senior year, when I found my way into some of the activist circles that I wish I had found much earlier), I left the...
Ultimately, while I met a lot of good people at Cornell (especially by my senior year, when I found my way into some of the activist circles that I wish I had found much earlier), I left the school feeling an immense bitterness and anger toward its administration. I ran Cayuga's Watchers for a year, and during that time I interacted with the administration regularly. They were inexcusibly passive on issues regarding student safety, and they would not hear a single argument about actually reigning in Greek Life.
I actually think that a Cornell that is safe for its students, especially for its undergraduate women, cannot coexist with its Greek Life system. Simply declaring fraternities against the rules would not actually fix the ingrained social problems that the student life has organized itself around, but it should be seen as a prerequisite component of any plan that wants to meaningfully address student safety.
I don't know a Greek Life system anywhere that isn't completely broken. I think the replacement of Greek Life with on campus university sanctioned and monitored clubs is so much preferable. If you...
I don't know a Greek Life system anywhere that isn't completely broken. I think the replacement of Greek Life with on campus university sanctioned and monitored clubs is so much preferable. If you are interested in business, great go to the business club.
I know sports teams can be as bad a Frats, but those parties always felt more welcoming, mellow, and less problematic. Granted I went to a D3 school so maybe that has something to do with it.
The D3 school I went to had such a high percentage of Greek participation that it was just the normal experience so you didn't really have to drink or anything and you could still participate....
The D3 school I went to had such a high percentage of Greek participation that it was just the normal experience so you didn't really have to drink or anything and you could still participate. That was cool.
Yeah, we did too. I meant more about problematic athletes being less of an issue at a school where sports were not a priority. And I understand there is some benefit from the Greek system, but to...
Yeah, we did too. I meant more about problematic athletes being less of an issue at a school where sports were not a priority.
And I understand there is some benefit from the Greek system, but to that end I feel like you could remove the really problematic elements - often just being associated with the Greek system and large collective housing separated by gender - into what are effectively clubs. I see the benefit as finding community in the interests that you have, so why not toss away the problematic trappings their built off of and go from there?
And by no means to detract, but merely to add: This is also roughly what is meant by only being able to be a racist or an anti-racist. It's not enough to simply not be one of the perpetrators of...
And by no means to detract, but merely to add:
This is also roughly what is meant by only being able to be a racist or an anti-racist. It's not enough to simply not be one of the perpetrators of overt racism. Just by ignoring the existing passive (and systemic) racism you are perpetuating and/or benefiting from it.
This is the same reason all cops are bastards. When faced with the choice of outing a corrupt cop or keeping their mouths shut, almost all choose silence (at best) in solidarity.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
There is the well-documented bystander effect, where in a crisis like a car accident most people will be dumbfounded and do nothing assuming someone else will do something. One of the first bits of CPR and First Aid training is to instruct you to take charge of a situation, to assign a specific person (not "someone") to call 911, another as an aide, and then to administer aid.
We need to respond to all of these cultural ills with that level of assertive straightforwardness, or people will fall back on the bystander effect figuring someone else will do it.
Have you ever witnessed the bystander effect being combated by giving orders to others/calling them out? I haven't fought it in terms of sexism/assault but I have many times in terms of more...
Have you ever witnessed the bystander effect being combated by giving orders to others/calling them out? I haven't fought it in terms of sexism/assault but I have many times in terms of more general asshole behaviour/verbal abuse and I've never found it successful. They just stare back at you.
In a medical emergency, yes. It's highly effective. In a social situation, one person saying "whoa dude not cool" to an offensive joke tends to change the whole dynamic.
In a medical emergency, yes. It's highly effective.
In a social situation, one person saying "whoa dude not cool" to an offensive joke tends to change the whole dynamic.
I once watched a kid get hit on the boardwalk. I had my very young kids with me, and I did not intervene because I felt I couldn't risk an altercation that would send me to the hospital. I regret...
I once watched a kid get hit on the boardwalk. I had my very young kids with me, and I did not intervene because I felt I couldn't risk an altercation that would send me to the hospital.
I regret not doing it then, and I've vowed that I won't be a bystander ever again. My kids are old enough now to watch me get beat to a pulp for standing up for what is right, and maybe learn something for it.
As DNAF noted, when it comes to medical situations, it's highly effective, and I wager it's because it doesn't also require confrontational bravery. Intervening to stop assault is terrifying, possibly even moreso if you're being singled out to help when you chose not to.
However, simply being the first bystander to stand up is often enough to get the one or two other brave souls to stand with you. It makes others a bit braver for next time, and socially normalizes calling out that bad behavior.
"Just stare back at you" is exactly what happened to me. A woman was choking and struggling to breathe in a carpark and I looked directly at two men talking nearby and asked them - specifically...
"Just stare back at you" is exactly what happened to me. A woman was choking and struggling to breathe in a carpark and I looked directly at two men talking nearby and asked them - specifically them - to come and help me (as she was starting to collapse) and they just stared at me and kept on talking... and watching the woman struggle.
It altered the way I look at humanity. It didn't turn me into a embittered hermit or anything - but it has made me understand that "help" is the exception, not the rule.
I absolutely do not believe that directly addressing people will overcome the bystander effect.
As deeply horrible as the situation you experienced was, it was absolutely the exception. Don't let one bad memory make you think the majority of people are as terrible as those two people were.
but it has made me understand that "help" is the exception, not the rule.
As deeply horrible as the situation you experienced was, it was absolutely the exception. Don't let one bad memory make you think the majority of people are as terrible as those two people were.
Isn't this invalidating my actual lived experience? Why on earth should I believe there will be help forthcoming, when it absolutely was not in the past? Isn't it better to observe the facts and...
Isn't this invalidating my actual lived experience?
Why on earth should I believe there will be help forthcoming, when it absolutely was not in the past?
Isn't it better to observe the facts and adjust accordingly?
I do understand that those two men were... suboptimal human beings... and not everyone is like that. But also, it seems sensible to accept that bystanders won't necessarily be of any help in a time of need.
Not my intent at all. What happened to you is very real and very awful, and I understand how much that hurts. And while I could go on about "something, something, anecdote" I'm not worried about...
Not my intent at all. What happened to you is very real and very awful, and I understand how much that hurts. And while I could go on about "something, something, anecdote" I'm not worried about statistics with this.
It's more important to me that we recognize that it costs little if anything to ask an already-present stranger for help, and that makes it a good idea even if it failed more often than it succeeded. And if it does work, it might save a life.
By the way, if it helps your outlook any, I looked into the bystander effect before posting this and found a study cited by Wikipedia which indicated that the bystander effect is (surprisingly) usually outweighed — more people being present means more chances someone helps, even if each is less likely to on an individual level. So people are more likely to help than you'd think, even without being asked. And help you did!
It's shocking and upsetting that you have this much trepidation about posting an important topic like this. What has happened to this site? I don't know anyone any more.
It's shocking and upsetting that you have this much trepidation about posting an important topic like this. What has happened to this site? I don't know anyone any more.
There's far fewer than ten thousand active participants here. There's plenty of names here I recognize from previous conversations, and you'll build up your own social reputation too. Not because...
There's far fewer than ten thousand active participants here. There's plenty of names here I recognize from previous conversations, and you'll build up your own social reputation too. Not because of points or anything, but because you'll also become recognized over time.
I can tell almost immediately, without checking profiles, whom has been here since before 2023. I'd guesstimate that over the course of a month, there are less than 500 of us commenting, and fewer...
I can tell almost immediately, without checking profiles, whom has been here since before 2023.
I'd guesstimate that over the course of a month, there are less than 500 of us commenting, and fewer posting. We're BBS scale.
I assume they mean that this topic and the adjacent topics often garner detractors and conflict in online spaces. The stronger the language in defense of women's rage and the need to be actively...
I assume they mean that this topic and the adjacent topics often garner detractors and conflict in online spaces. The stronger the language in defense of women's rage and the need to be actively and proactively feminist and pro-women, the more likely it is that someone jumps into the conversation to try to pick apart the original post, sometimes in less-than-good faith, and this experience is, you know, shitty for, like, women (and usually non-binary folks as well, especially femme non-binary folks).
I get the trepidation but at the same time I think we’re just used to having to hear contrarian nonsense from assholes and bots on reddit, whereas this site is actual people. Many actual people on...
I get the trepidation but at the same time I think we’re just used to having to hear contrarian nonsense from assholes and bots on reddit, whereas this site is actual people. Many actual people on this site have sense not to say xenophobic stuff just to be contrarian, but I guess trepidation then comes from the disappointment of meeting an actual person on here who still has stupid opinions on women’s rights, race, etc
These topics have, historically, on Tildes, absolutely drawn out a lot of "just asking questions"/less-than-inclined-to-believe-women commenters. Definitely real humans, not bots. It sucks but it...
These topics have, historically, on Tildes, absolutely drawn out a lot of "just asking questions"/less-than-inclined-to-believe-women commenters. Definitely real humans, not bots. It sucks but it is still a reality here for sure.
I was risking frustration. But with an ellipsis in front of it. Risking... frustration. The capital F was autocorrect. @smores provided a fuller explanation already and I cosign the whole bit...
I was risking frustration. But with an ellipsis in front of it.
Risking... frustration. The capital F was autocorrect.
@smores provided a fuller explanation already and I cosign the whole bit especially as a nonbinary demi-gender woman.
I agree with almost everything you've written, but I'd like to offer a bit of a Marxist critique as to the "Not All Men" section of your comment. In general, it seems like there is a missing...
I agree with almost everything you've written, but I'd like to offer a bit of a Marxist critique as to the "Not All Men" section of your comment.
In general, it seems like there is a missing class-dynamics discussion around the affluence of the perpetrators. Whenever I read about a disturbing case like the 2024 Cornell case, it feels like the perpetrators often come from a distinct type of affluent, male predator that is shielded behind layers of social, administrative and legal protections.
I agree that 85% of the participants in the group chat being passive observers to a rape is disturbing. It personally sickens me.
However, I think a lot of the Feminist discussion of these issues has been derelict of the affluence of the perpetrators. As such, I'd like to ask this:
In our society, does "Men's passive participation in rape culture" exist as a cross-societal problem, or is it primarily an issue in affluent areas of American/Anglo society where perpetrators are given enhanced social, legal, and administrative protections?
Specifically, I ask this because my experiences have lead me to conclude that while our society inherently has massive issues with sexism, most men that I have lived and worked around do not seem complicate in "rape culture," even passively. While men I am around may be passively sexist, doing such examples as: passing women over for promotions, discounting the work of woman collaborators, downplaying the needs and perspectives of women socially... I've never directly observed men being passively complicit in rape culture. This is a perspective that has endured before AND after I transitioned.
However, I know that I am on the lower end of the economic spectrum. I went to a second-tier State University, I've worked around people without university education, and I live in a lower class neighborhood. I also live in a Northern city with a strong history of social justice.
Regardless, I am afraid of here, is that there exists a distinct class of men who, for whatever reason, (economic, moral, social, personal, etc.) do not participate in "Rape Culture" and if anything, are allies against it. Maybe they're too economically disadvantaged to further any political/social opinion that doesn't actively affect them. Maybe they're so socially isolated, that they don't bother participate. Maybe they're a paragon of virtue, but no one has ever asked them to do anything about it in an actual way. None of these men could be described as being "complicit in rape culture," and might actually be feminist allies to the issue.
However, an affluent group of men (and women) exist outside of this class, and either actively or passively participates in Rape Culture. These people are entirely complicit, and are able to continue to get away with their crimes via legal and economic protections. They can afford good lawyers, can move across borders readily and easily, and their privilege allows them social connections with judges and prosecutors.
If the feminist argument here is that "men are complicit in rape culture if they..." and this argument is directed at ALL men, instead of a group of wealthy perpetrators with social and economic protections.... we're not discussing the issue. Instead, we're alienating people who absolutely are not complicit, instead of examining the cultural factors that allow these acts to happen.
What's weird about the 85% figure, is also the fact that 85% of the student body of Cornell is affluent. In my experience, when lower and middle class people are accused of Gang Rape, their outcomes are not the same as those of the affluent. What scares me, is the idea of someone being able to use their privilege and influence to evade justice, and then an ensuing culture war that completely evades discussing how material conditions change outcomes.
I agree with you as to the problem of Rape Culture. I think we're afraid to discuss how much wealth is a cause of it.
I don't disagree that wealth is a factor in how these men were treated and how they felt free to treat this woman. If anything her access to familial supports are likely why she's able to sue (I...
I don't disagree that wealth is a factor in how these men were treated and how they felt free to treat this woman. If anything her access to familial supports are likely why she's able to sue (I don't know her)
However while high profile and wealthy examples make the news, it is not my personal experience that class makes a difference in participation in rape culture. There's no indication that sexual assault occurs more or less by class or education level of the perpetrators. And while we know our criminal justice system has a class bias it also has a bias against victims of sexual assault. A very strong one that leads to reporting issues as well as conviction issues.
However rape culture isn't just engaging in the act. It's laughing at the jokes. It's being a bystander. It's getting online and questioning if we really know the truth of what happened, because she did drink after all. It's not believing victims unless theyre "perfect." It's not believing the people in your life when they say it's pervasive. It's telling a child to "cover up", when their uncle comes over, rather than banning said uncle from the house. It's laughing at the downfall of Me Too. It's supporting R Kelly (and Chris Brown, and whatever football player is accused of domestic violence this year but is too good to fire; because if you think you have the right to assault someone having the right to sexually assault someone is not a far step.) It's jokes about prison rape being in SpongeBob cartoons.
Few people will say "yeah I raped someone" but if you ask about specific behaviors that are sexual assault - sex with someone too drunk to consent for example - more people will say yes.
It's also not just men. Women and nonbinary people participate in rape culture too. So yeah I believe you that the people you know aren't rapists and wouldn't stand aside when something was happening. But that doesn't mean they avoid it entirely, and if they do, it doesn't mean most people are.
So yeah, lots of words to say I think class is always a factor in outcome and even in access, but most women are assaulted by someone they know, she was friends with at least one of these guys. The person who.... Crossed consent lines... With me was not well off. I don't think it's primarily a class issue.
And if people are alienated by this, then we're right back to "not all men" and the idea that only the 15% were to blame.
Honestly, I think you're correct. I will always genuinely wonder how informed my opinions are based on my region, social class, and what areas/eras of society I exist in. Even weirder, is the...
Honestly, I think you're correct. I will always genuinely wonder how informed my opinions are based on my region, social class, and what areas/eras of society I exist in. Even weirder, is the thought that it could be entirely possible that we're both entirely correct - but only for our own unique demographics. Perhaps a well written research paper exists that could offer us better understanding, or will be written, long from now. I digress.
What bothers me, is that I don't know how our society is actually supposed to even approach this issue. Complicit rape culture is clearly a problem in America. Unfortunately, my personal, jaded experience is that complicity to heinous problems just seem the norm in our society. I can point to how the American/Anglo culture is complicit in colonialism, segregation, climate change, imperialism, and needless carnage, and has been for my lifetime.
Furthermore, duty to intervene is something that seems actively discouraged by our society. I will cite examples if requested, but our society seems to have a strong preference for privacy in all matters, which absolutely is an aspect of the complicity issue.
And as a trans woman, in my experiences in trans spaces, even a heinous crime like a gang rape is simply par for the course. I don't mean to surrender into whataboutism, but consider the following point:
As we are both writing from a country that's willing to elect a rapist to the highest position of power... I think our feminist thinkers need to revisit how effective feminist messaging has actually been in the last 30 years. It honestly bothers and scares me that the current state of feminist discourse, is seeing an article about a woman getting gang raped at an Ivy League school with no consequences, and then seeing the same messaging that I grew up reading about 'college rape culture' in the 2000s.
If we are a nation of people who are complicit in all manner of harm, and we refuse to reflect on how are efforts to change this have failed, then I wonder if we are truly damned, in the face of all just words and effort we claim to desire.
I don't believe justice exists. However, I believe in attempts to make a more just world. On the topic of rape culture, I see feminist messaging that is often absolutely true, but does not, in my opinion and experience, create allies, spark thoughtful conversation, or further a more just world. In a sentence, I see feminist messaging that scolds and folds, rather than creates a framework to attempt a better future.
I don't know how to create a more just world and future. I think we desire the same things, a more equitable, just world, where fewer people are left in harms way, and where perpetrators are adequately held responsible.
I agree with everything you've said, I quibble with on the impact of the perspective. I hope that my respect for you and this issue comes clear in my responses, and please let me know if I need to elaborate, or am especially disrespectful in any of my opinions.
No need to worry about disrespect or anything at all. This is a worthwhile conversation and I'd broadly agree that moving towards justice is more "true" than finding it. And I also worry about...
No need to worry about disrespect or anything at all. This is a worthwhile conversation and I'd broadly agree that moving towards justice is more "true" than finding it. And I also worry about where we are and what we can do.
I thought about this with the University of Florida sextortion case I posted a few weeks back. There were many layers of protection such as the frat, the likely rich parents, the perpetrators...
I thought about this with the University of Florida sextortion case I posted a few weeks back. There were many layers of protection such as the frat, the likely rich parents, the perpetrators being on sports teams, and the school wanting to protect is reputation. The article talked about how that victim came from an average background but wanted to fit in with the rich kids at school so she joined a sorority and went to go party with the frat boys, only to end up in a similar situation as above (with added sextortion and social media exposure). And after all of that, she ended up trying to hang out with clavicular for some reason. That article touched on classism but not as much as I would've liked since I was thinking along the lines of what you said, and in that case I was wondering why the victim felt the need to fit in with rich assholes rather than the plethora of other interesting people you meet at a university. And seeing as she was hanging out with clavicular and trying to gain a social media following I kind of felt like the victim missed the bigger picture of her own victimization.
I feel like a group chat of ~50 that has 7 people eager to commit rape isn't a good source for people willing to stop rape in the process of being committed.
women shouting "You say not all men but not one of you spoke up? Not a single man?!"
I feel like a group chat of ~50 that has 7 people eager to commit rape isn't a good source for people willing to stop rape in the process of being committed.
It obviously wasn't. That's the point. I'm saying it's the bottom image not the top one. I am also not basing all of my beliefs on this one incident and trying to explain why people are angry and...
It obviously wasn't. That's the point. I'm saying it's the bottom image not the top one.
I am also not basing all of my beliefs on this one incident and trying to explain why people are angry and what "not all men" ignores.
As I said, I expected this, not because they're in a fraternity.
People are understandably appalled, and justifiable so. I find the whole thing sickening as well. But I think what @teaearlgraycold is saying is a group chat of Frat Bros is not a valid sample of...
People are understandably appalled, and justifiable so. I find the whole thing sickening as well.
But I think what @teaearlgraycold is saying is a group chat of Frat Bros is not a valid sample of 'all men'. Unironically not all men are frat bros.
People are free to believe whatever they want, but personally I find that bottom image incredibly black pilled and not productive or healthy as a prior belief. I 'm not naive enough to think it's the top image, and of course there is a gradient but I just think it looks better than that.
I think the bottom image is certainly a better representation of reality than the top one. If I had to guess at proportions I'd skew things a bit differently, but it gets the point across.
I think the bottom image is certainly a better representation of reality than the top one. If I had to guess at proportions I'd skew things a bit differently, but it gets the point across.
I agree it's probably closer to reality than the top and that all people are biased to inaction. I don't think literally half of men harbor what I'd classify as anti-women opinions, but maybe I...
I agree it's probably closer to reality than the top and that all people are biased to inaction. I don't think literally half of men harbor what I'd classify as anti-women opinions, but maybe I live in a bubble.
Yeah I don't agree about it being "anything-pilled" and I am quite frustrated with the several subthreads here telling me how to feel or not to feel or how I'm coming to the wrong conclusions...
Yeah I don't agree about it being "anything-pilled" and I am quite frustrated with the several subthreads here telling me how to feel or not to feel or how I'm coming to the wrong conclusions because my sample size is small or wrongly constructed.
It is ironic since it actually confirms what I'm saying. Plus the point was to understand where the rage is coming from, telling the angry traumatized people that they're too nihilistic is unproductive.
I'm specifically not trying to tell you how to feel, only offering my opinion. Nor did I necessarily think or mean to imply you were signing off on every detail of the image you linked. I don't...
I'm specifically not trying to tell you how to feel, only offering my opinion. Nor did I necessarily think or mean to imply you were signing off on every detail of the image you linked.
telling the angry traumatized people that they're too nihilistic is unproductive
I don't think believing that one out of every two men is a misogynist and one out of every four is a predator is productive. Not all beliefs need to be productive, if someone feels angry as a result of their trauma I don't begrudge them. I just think at a macro level, if a significant amount of people hold that belief how does society even function? We're getting close to replacing #NotAllMen with #AllMen...
You weren't the only response I was referring to in that statement. You got the reply because you chose to try to explain one of those responses to me that required zero explanation. "Not all men"...
You weren't the only response I was referring to in that statement. You got the reply because you chose to try to explain one of those responses to me that required zero explanation.
"Not all men" is usually the counter to "men". It's not the original statement. It's already the response to anger, rage, and trauma. Men never meant "all men". The point isn't productivity or logic. The point is trying to explain the feelings and the experience. That chart isn't to scale or proportionate. You'll notice a distinct lack of number or norming. The point is that Not All Men is not useful or relevant.
Every woman I talked to about the Cornell case at work was upset, they said they cried reading it, they were pissed, etc. I work in higher ed, so we're of course more tuned in to this story. But I wanted to explain why we're not just outraged at the specific situation and why "women choose the bear" and why there's disdain for the idea that men are "protectors" and the other rhetoric of men's podcasts these days (some deeply misogynist). Because the response to "without men who would protect you" is "protect me from what?"
This isn't about hating "all men" it's the emotion behind the song "Labour", it's watching the domestic violence cases come in, it's not knowing who would speak up if something did happen, and who would shame and blame you, and it's a large proportion of women having experienced sexual assault/abuse watching yet another woman have to be very very brave.
The problem with the complaint about numbers is that we certainly don't have any evidence that 1 out of 50 would have called the police in another situation. We don't have evidence that it's the fact that they're in a fraternity that made no one speak up. We even have anecdotal evidence in this thread of a Cornell fraternity guy stopping sexual assault before it happened. What we have is not a single person in that group chat reporting the case - because it wasn't reported until she did, three weeks later, as far as we know.
Not a single one. Trying to negotiate over how many men are how good and how "passive" vs "active" they are is not meaningful. Because this is not an intellectual exercise. I am trying to convey emotion and elicit empathy.
ETA, saw a creator say this "it's not all men, until we're telling our daughters how to behave" and I'll add, it's not all men until we're "joking" about the shotgun when the date comes around. It's not all men until it's about controlling women and then "she should have known better".
Those are all very fair points, I get where you're coming from. For me, this is the point when I'm commenting on a news article. I like to think about systems, about incentives, about how to make...
Those are all very fair points, I get where you're coming from.
The point isn't productivity or logic. The point is trying to explain the feelings and the experience. That chart isn't to scale or proportionate. You'll notice a distinct lack of number or norming. The point is that Not All Men is not useful or relevant.
For me, this is the point when I'm commenting on a news article. I like to think about systems, about incentives, about how to make the world a better place and my comments are usually pointed in that direction.
I get that but intellectualizing emotion is counterproductive here where I tried to be quite clear about the purpose. You can obviously still do it, but I'm telling you why I am not receiving that...
I get that but intellectualizing emotion is counterproductive here where I tried to be quite clear about the purpose. You can obviously still do it, but I'm telling you why I am not receiving that in a positive manner, though again, other posts were more egregious in regards to the other parts of that comment.
But more effective then would not be talking about something being black pilled and pulling actual data on bystander intervention in sexual assault from men.and similar. Because if we're going to intellectualize it, show the data that supports what you think not just criticizing because you think it's incorrect. I'd genuinely love to see data that shows a more positive outlook, but I tend to find people falling into that "well meaning but underestimates the problem" category instead of doing the research.
I know my comment gets into the weeds, but since you mentioned not all guys are frat bros and since I've been vocal about my time in my fraternity, I figured I would add that not all frat bros are...
I know my comment gets into the weeds, but since you mentioned not all guys are frat bros and since I've been vocal about my time in my fraternity, I figured I would add that not all frat bros are complicit in stuff like this.
I don't pretend to be a guy living in my college glory days, but I do bring up that I was a member and stories around it in part because it was a formative part of my young adult life and an experience that was profoundly beneficial to me as person and to many of my brothers. I went through some struggles and I feel like having a space for young men to be young men was exactly what I needed at that point in my life.
Guys like this spit on all the good that fraternity membership offers and I, along with all of the brothers whom I've talked to about this, hope they get the book thrown at them. Including the guys who did nothing. It's clear this chapter's culture was rotten to the core if not a single person said "hey, that's fucked up" and tried to stop this from happening.
When I was a member of our fraternity's governing body we never had anything as heinous as this, but such an action would have their charter pulled and all active members expelled. Even locally we would drop pledges who acted creepy or if we got multiple reports of them doing off putting things around women (multiple because we wanted to be sure and not judge someone potentially just being awkward or having a bad social situation or even the woman in question conflating them with someone else during a social event which unsurprisingly can happen when alcohol is involved). Members being creeps were brought up to our judiciary board and 2 strikes would result in a trial for expulsion at our next chapter meeting.
I would argue that this image is completely in line with what "not all men" entails. In fact, it should probably be generalized to overall "proactively trying to help" to "proactively trying to...
I would argue that this image is completely in line with what "not all men" entails. In fact, it should probably be generalized to overall "proactively trying to help" to "proactively trying to harm" scale, with most people being somewhere in the "passive" space. The exact proportions will likely vary by culture, upbringing, etc. I don't think men are uniquely worse or better in this regard. It's just men are pretty universally the initiators and pursuers (at least in the cultures that I experienced), so the sexual predation, intentional or accidental, unfortunately comes with that.
Seems about right. I think in general most people are afraid to speak up against things. But in an unbiased sampling of 50 men you'd have at least one that would go to the police immediately.
Seems about right. I think in general most people are afraid to speak up against things. But in an unbiased sampling of 50 men you'd have at least one that would go to the police immediately.
I'd love to see a study that shows that! ETA: since the vast majority of assaults are believed to go unreported, and 1/3 of assaults have a 3rd party present.... I don't know if that math holds up
I'd love to see a study that shows that!
ETA: since the vast majority of assaults are believed to go unreported, and 1/3 of assaults have a 3rd party present.... I don't know if that math holds up
Absolutely horrifying. I avoided joining a frat because of stories like this, but I can't help but wonder if I, too, would've stayed silent at that age. I should look up bystander training for...
Absolutely horrifying. I avoided joining a frat because of stories like this, but I can't help but wonder if I, too, would've stayed silent at that age. I should look up bystander training for these situations.
I don't want all the blame to go to fraternities. I have plenty of issues with Greek life, but this is not something where my expectations were low because it was a frat. The fraternity just made...
I don't want all the blame to go to fraternities. I have plenty of issues with Greek life, but this is not something where my expectations were low because it was a frat. The fraternity just made the group chat larger and in this case provided a physical location but this is pervasive.
Yes, agreed. See Professional and amateur hockey in here Canada, where I'm now giving up on my favourite team in my favourite sport because they couldn't meet the low low bar of not signing one of...
Yes, agreed. See Professional and amateur hockey in here Canada, where I'm now giving up on my favourite team in my favourite sport because they couldn't meet the low low bar of not signing one of the accused in one of the highest profile rape cases in Canadian history because He WaS nOt FoUnD GuIlTy (actually ruled inconclusive). I read all the texts myself and the testimony. Even if most of it was found inadmissible as evidence due to time and alcohol, you're still scum, Oilers.
I was friends with a lot of frat guys who were not like that, but I've met some of the shitty racist/sexist ones. Like any other friend group it really sounds like who's around you, frats just...
I was friends with a lot of frat guys who were not like that, but I've met some of the shitty racist/sexist ones. Like any other friend group it really sounds like who's around you, frats just have a weird power dynamic.
Also surprising because I've met so many smart Cornell alumni and students, including feminists and LGBTQ activists.
As someone who went to Cornell and finally found my way to the activists at the end of my undergrad, I would hazard a guess that the reason you've met so many smart, progressive, active Cornell...
As someone who went to Cornell and finally found my way to the activists at the end of my undergrad, I would hazard a guess that the reason you've met so many smart, progressive, active Cornell alumni and students is that there is an ever-present counterculture that exists largely in response to the dominant culture of wealth, toxic masculinity, Greek life, and an administration that gives fuck all about any of it. The classic historical evidence for this is the Willard Straight Hall takeover in 1969. I don't really think that fight has ended.
Yes, I have friends who were in frats too who I don't believe would have condoned this but figured I should stay away from that to avoid devolving the tenor of the comments in a way that OP is...
Yes, I have friends who were in frats too who I don't believe would have condoned this but figured I should stay away from that to avoid devolving the tenor of the comments in a way that OP is clearly worried about. Ultimately we don't know what they would or wouldn't have done, hence my musing and thinking about bystander training. And agreed about trying to teach our young boys better.
I went right to this, it is very hard to find reporting on what Cornell did in this investigation even when NY state is criticizing this. I posted earlier about the girl at the University of...
I went right to this, it is very hard to find reporting on what Cornell did in this investigation even when NY state is criticizing this. I posted earlier about the girl at the University of Florida dealing with a similar situation, so it triggered me to look for the details on that and I hope the reality comes to light. It really sounds like the investigation was poor.
Also, with the "not all men" I like to imagine that a lot of my friends would pull someone out or send a girl home with her friends when she is intoxicated like that, but it unfortunately seems like culture is shifting further and further downward. I'll do my part and reinforce this with the younger men in my life, but it seems a lot of men aren't doing that with their boys. We need outside accountability, but it seems law enforcement isn't upholding their end either.
There's a bit more reporting coming out - The DA was being rather victim blame-y about how "her story changed" but then came out and said they replied on the university investigation. But yes,...
There's a bit more reporting coming out - The DA was being rather victim blame-y about how "her story changed" but then came out and said they replied on the university investigation.
But yes, title IX investigations are private and that is protected by law. And that is both good and bad, and makes accountability difficult, especially without a federal enforcement mechanism.
Do we know for a fact that none of them reported anything? Apparently the chat was reported using screenshots and I'm not sure how those would have been acquired without anyone speaking up in some...
Do we know for a fact that none of them reported anything? Apparently the chat was reported using screenshots and I'm not sure how those would have been acquired without anyone speaking up in some way. Not that it excuses anything. What I'm curious about is if this was a (semi-)regular occurrence in this chat and this is the only occurrence we know about.
Without in any way meaning to justify anyone's behavior (or inaction), or implying this chat group is in any way redeemable (especially because I lack information), I just want to point out that I...
Without in any way meaning to justify anyone's behavior (or inaction), or implying this chat group is in any way redeemable (especially because I lack information), I just want to point out that I am in many chat groups that I don't read, ever. I want to at least hope there are a handful of victims of circumstance in there.
Also today, the federal administration partially rescinded Title IX protections. Other outlets are describing the change as removing protections for LGBTQ+ students and allowing universities...
Also today, the federal administration partially rescinded Title IX protections. Other outlets are describing the change as removing protections for LGBTQ+ students and allowing universities leeway not to proactively investigate.
Yeah I'm not sure what changes happen here because I think these didn't get implemented. The initial changes during his first term I think still held. But they were trying to change the rule and...
Yeah I'm not sure what changes happen here because I think these didn't get implemented. The initial changes during his first term I think still held. But they were trying to change the rule and didn't get it done. Sigh
They have talked about revoking T9 entirely which isn't just about sexual assault, dealing with sexual assault is sort of a side effect of the overarching principal that women should have equal access and opportunities in education. To achieve that you need to ensure sexual assaults are handled appropriately. (To achieve that you need equal sports opportunities, etc.)
It will be worse, especially in this current world, if these are rolled back.
Edit: did more research, still not sure if we ever fully got away from these rules but they 100% set a higher standard of proof, set a higher standard for what sexual harassment is, and but an increased onus on reporting students to participate in "courtroom like" hearings.
Bleh
I believe there are more men accused of sexual assault in this case than there are trans women in college sports. Bull shit he's talking about it being about trans people.
A new fuck you to anyone who didn't hold the line on trans rights. Welcome to the new cover for attacking women's rights.
I don’t have anything useful to add but reading this made me furious. Fuck Cornell. And everyone who helped minimize and sweep this horrific crime under the rug.
I don’t have anything useful to add but reading this made me furious. Fuck Cornell. And everyone who helped minimize and sweep this horrific crime under the rug.
The tone from the DA's statement rubs me the wrong way, almost like they're victim blaming the Jane Doe. It's disappointing to see how often sexual harassment/assault occurs in universities. It's...
The tone from the DA's statement rubs me the wrong way, almost like they're victim blaming the Jane Doe. It's disappointing to see how often sexual harassment/assault occurs in universities. It's clear that a lack of accountability is part of what leads to assault being so common and frequent. One of the universities I attended has a part of campus dedicated to greek life housing with strict oversight and rules. Despite this, sexual assault is still insanely common purely because these groups simply go off-campus and into rented housing away from the eyes of the university and commit these crimes. Since these crimes are off campus, these crimes aren't handled by the university police force either. As a result, to the university, the move to centralize control over greek life worked because their police force deals with less sexual assault cases, while actual numbers have not changed at all.
Fwiw if those assaults are reported to the school they still get tracked..I don't know if it makes them not Cleary reportable but the number of title ix cases is still a metric. (And local police...
Fwiw if those assaults are reported to the school they still get tracked..I don't know if it makes them not Cleary reportable but the number of title ix cases is still a metric. (And local police typically report everything involving students to the university, from fake IDs and underage consumption on up to CSAM and threats against the president)
But it can certainly improve the marketing.
However idk if there's a better solution - without on campus housing for all students, most students will live off campus anyway - regardless of Greek life. And this happens at all sorts of parties, on and off campus, in and out of Greek life, while watching a movie in your dorm room.
It makes sense to try to control what you can as an institution to reduce some risk potentially.
But I agree about the DA's statements. They're just pissy they're getting media coverage for a "fail"
Yeah I don't mean to bash the university for trying to keep greek life under control with the on-campus housing, in other metrics it's actually helped a lot since it also includes university staff...
Yeah I don't mean to bash the university for trying to keep greek life under control with the on-campus housing, in other metrics it's actually helped a lot since it also includes university staff monitoring things. It's a difficult issue overall because even with all the extra university oversight into these organizations, people still go above and beyond to do heinous things.
I am just going to add a link to this video - tiktok. YT mirror. The comments are full of people joining in, especially on Tiktok. I don't have anything else to say.
I am just going to add a link to this video - tiktok. YT mirror. The comments are full of people joining in, especially on Tiktok.
I thought I was done. Until they doxxed Jane Doe on Twitter. I don't know whether it was the groyper Nazi, or the Chi Phi alum who said "help a Chi Phi" (what does that imply) or Michael Tracey...
I thought I was done. Until they doxxed Jane Doe on Twitter.
I don't know whether it was the groyper Nazi, or the Chi Phi alum who said "help a Chi Phi" (what does that imply) or Michael Tracey who was actively and proudly trying to dox her... I don't know who actually did.
You want to guess what the comments are full of? You want to guess who the comments are made by?
Don't report? Liar. Do report? Liar. Doesn't matter, either way you'll be called a whore.
I want to add that allegedly 1 person in the 57 member chat (the numbers have varied, I'm not redoing my math) sent her the screenshots after the fact. Also additional rather damning messages have been shared.
So right now, best case scenario is 1/57... I'll round it up to 2%.
That is not a victory. That is the literal bare minimum.
The rage has not decreased. I literally had a student disclose to me today. And not want to report... Because "he didn't mean it."
Heads up folks, this deals with sexual assault.
If you haven't heard of the Cornell sexual assault case in the news, a woman has filed a civil suit against her 7 alleged assaulters, all part of a fraternity at Cornell, where at a fraternity house they didn't just rape her, they offered her out in the house group chat. The university Title IX investigation allegedly ended with 2 expulsions and 5 essays/apologies. The criminal case was dropped but has recently been reopened.
There is a lot of not just anger but rage in women's spaces as this story has come out. At the seven students, at the university, at the DA... But also at every single other man in that group chat. Not one objected in the chat to an offer of "free pussy". Not one called the police. Not one physically intervened. Maybe one was a witness to an investigation, but there's no sign of anything and I'm not inclined to make positive assumptions.
People tend to think of it as a dichotomy of good vs bad men, and therefore "not all men" is separating out the vast majority of good men from these few bad actors. 15% of the group chat raped her, allegedly, but the other 85% said nothing. Comment sections already include accusations of her lying out of regret, calling her names, etc. This is where the rage comes from. There are no self-proclaimed protectors to be found. There is only silence, doubt, and mockery.
This is genuinely what I expect to happen. I am not shocked by this, even as I'm so very angry about what happened to her, and every Title IX sexual assault situation I deal with every day; this is normal. This is what "rape culture" means.
I hesitated to even post this topic but I think it's important, and I hope that for folks who are not in spaces with women shouting "You say not all men but not one of you spoke up? Not a single man?!" in their frustration, anger, grief, and their own trauma, it will inspire empathy and understanding. This is a horrific thing in isolation. But it's not isolated. And it's something we have to address as a society, especially in the face of increased calls for the revocation of women's rights.
ETA: New Cornell Statement clarified that there were expulsions and suspensions, but no "just an essay" outcomes. I suspect Jane Doe did not get notified of the sanctions imposed and only had word of mouth for her lawsuit, and it sounds like she had to/chose to push for a full hearing (the respondents may have) where she had to face her accusers, though questioning should have happened through intermediaries.... I've been the intermediary assisting a complainant and it can still be very intimidating, even virtually. Credit to her still.
Indeed.
When I was an undergrad at Cornell (~2016), I had a friend who was in a fraternity. I knew him through Cayuga's Watchers, a non-profit that trained undergrads on how to be non-confrontational, active bystanders around dangerous/risky drinking behaviors.
At the end of a frat party, one of the older fraternity members was carrying a nearly unconscious woman upstairs with him. My friend gently interrupted him, suggested that they find the woman's friends, and found someone to take her back to her dorm and keep an eye on her. She ended up being fine.
My friend, on the other hand, was punched in the face in front of his entire fraternity for interrupting the other member's opportunity to "get laid." Not one single member of his fraternity, all of whom knew exactly what had happened, did a thing about it.
Greek life at Cornell is an absolute plague. It reinforces the most hideous and violent tendencies of college-age men (and women, for that matter — the hazing that happened at the "top tier" Cornell sororities was horrifying). The administration knows this, just like they know that their insistence on banning freshmen from attending official Greek life events during their first semester drives all of the social events into unmonitored, unregulated parties in college town, which leads to more hospitalizations. But those happen off campus, so they don't affect the university statistics, so they don't care.
I appreciate your friend, and wish he'd gotten justice for that punch. And I appreciate the work you did. We have student orgs, see student employees, professional staff, all trying to make things safer. But we cannot be everywhere and we can't stop everything.
We could create a world where every other dude there would also have stood up, and would never have let your friend get hit.
Ultimately, while I met a lot of good people at Cornell (especially by my senior year, when I found my way into some of the activist circles that I wish I had found much earlier), I left the school feeling an immense bitterness and anger toward its administration. I ran Cayuga's Watchers for a year, and during that time I interacted with the administration regularly. They were inexcusibly passive on issues regarding student safety, and they would not hear a single argument about actually reigning in Greek Life.
I actually think that a Cornell that is safe for its students, especially for its undergraduate women, cannot coexist with its Greek Life system. Simply declaring fraternities against the rules would not actually fix the ingrained social problems that the student life has organized itself around, but it should be seen as a prerequisite component of any plan that wants to meaningfully address student safety.
I don't know a Greek Life system anywhere that isn't completely broken. I think the replacement of Greek Life with on campus university sanctioned and monitored clubs is so much preferable. If you are interested in business, great go to the business club.
I know sports teams can be as bad a Frats, but those parties always felt more welcoming, mellow, and less problematic. Granted I went to a D3 school so maybe that has something to do with it.
The D3 school I went to had such a high percentage of Greek participation that it was just the normal experience so you didn't really have to drink or anything and you could still participate. That was cool.
Yeah, we did too. I meant more about problematic athletes being less of an issue at a school where sports were not a priority.
And I understand there is some benefit from the Greek system, but to that end I feel like you could remove the really problematic elements - often just being associated with the Greek system and large collective housing separated by gender - into what are effectively clubs. I see the benefit as finding community in the interests that you have, so why not toss away the problematic trappings their built off of and go from there?
Good on your friend, I hope he knows that. It takes a lot of strength and courage to do that.
And by no means to detract, but merely to add:
This is also roughly what is meant by only being able to be a racist or an anti-racist. It's not enough to simply not be one of the perpetrators of overt racism. Just by ignoring the existing passive (and systemic) racism you are perpetuating and/or benefiting from it.
This is the same reason all cops are bastards. When faced with the choice of outing a corrupt cop or keeping their mouths shut, almost all choose silence (at best) in solidarity.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
There is the well-documented bystander effect, where in a crisis like a car accident most people will be dumbfounded and do nothing assuming someone else will do something. One of the first bits of CPR and First Aid training is to instruct you to take charge of a situation, to assign a specific person (not "someone") to call 911, another as an aide, and then to administer aid.
We need to respond to all of these cultural ills with that level of assertive straightforwardness, or people will fall back on the bystander effect figuring someone else will do it.
Have you ever witnessed the bystander effect being combated by giving orders to others/calling them out? I haven't fought it in terms of sexism/assault but I have many times in terms of more general asshole behaviour/verbal abuse and I've never found it successful. They just stare back at you.
In a medical emergency, yes. It's highly effective.
In a social situation, one person saying "whoa dude not cool" to an offensive joke tends to change the whole dynamic.
I once watched a kid get hit on the boardwalk. I had my very young kids with me, and I did not intervene because I felt I couldn't risk an altercation that would send me to the hospital.
I regret not doing it then, and I've vowed that I won't be a bystander ever again. My kids are old enough now to watch me get beat to a pulp for standing up for what is right, and maybe learn something for it.
As DNAF noted, when it comes to medical situations, it's highly effective, and I wager it's because it doesn't also require confrontational bravery. Intervening to stop assault is terrifying, possibly even moreso if you're being singled out to help when you chose not to.
However, simply being the first bystander to stand up is often enough to get the one or two other brave souls to stand with you. It makes others a bit braver for next time, and socially normalizes calling out that bad behavior.
"Just stare back at you" is exactly what happened to me. A woman was choking and struggling to breathe in a carpark and I looked directly at two men talking nearby and asked them - specifically them - to come and help me (as she was starting to collapse) and they just stared at me and kept on talking... and watching the woman struggle.
It altered the way I look at humanity. It didn't turn me into a embittered hermit or anything - but it has made me understand that "help" is the exception, not the rule.
I absolutely do not believe that directly addressing people will overcome the bystander effect.
As deeply horrible as the situation you experienced was, it was absolutely the exception. Don't let one bad memory make you think the majority of people are as terrible as those two people were.
Isn't this invalidating my actual lived experience?
Why on earth should I believe there will be help forthcoming, when it absolutely was not in the past?
Isn't it better to observe the facts and adjust accordingly?
I do understand that those two men were... suboptimal human beings... and not everyone is like that. But also, it seems sensible to accept that bystanders won't necessarily be of any help in a time of need.
Not my intent at all. What happened to you is very real and very awful, and I understand how much that hurts. And while I could go on about "something, something, anecdote" I'm not worried about statistics with this.
It's more important to me that we recognize that it costs little if anything to ask an already-present stranger for help, and that makes it a good idea even if it failed more often than it succeeded. And if it does work, it might save a life.
By the way, if it helps your outlook any, I looked into the bystander effect before posting this and found a study cited by Wikipedia which indicated that the bystander effect is (surprisingly) usually outweighed — more people being present means more chances someone helps, even if each is less likely to on an individual level. So people are more likely to help than you'd think, even without being asked. And help you did!
100% agree. I felt I was already risking too much... Frustration by making the post and didn't want to go further. But this is absolutely true.
It's shocking and upsetting that you have this much trepidation about posting an important topic like this. What has happened to this site? I don't know anyone any more.
Huh?
There are tens of thousands of people on this site, how would you know everyone..?
There's far fewer than ten thousand active participants here. There's plenty of names here I recognize from previous conversations, and you'll build up your own social reputation too. Not because of points or anything, but because you'll also become recognized over time.
I can tell almost immediately, without checking profiles, whom has been here since before 2023.
I'd guesstimate that over the course of a month, there are less than 500 of us commenting, and fewer posting. We're BBS scale.
I don’t get this. What are you risking if anything about sharing this?
I assume they mean that this topic and the adjacent topics often garner detractors and conflict in online spaces. The stronger the language in defense of women's rage and the need to be actively and proactively feminist and pro-women, the more likely it is that someone jumps into the conversation to try to pick apart the original post, sometimes in less-than-good faith, and this experience is, you know, shitty for, like, women (and usually non-binary folks as well, especially femme non-binary folks).
I get the trepidation but at the same time I think we’re just used to having to hear contrarian nonsense from assholes and bots on reddit, whereas this site is actual people. Many actual people on this site have sense not to say xenophobic stuff just to be contrarian, but I guess trepidation then comes from the disappointment of meeting an actual person on here who still has stupid opinions on women’s rights, race, etc
These topics have, historically, on Tildes, absolutely drawn out a lot of "just asking questions"/less-than-inclined-to-believe-women commenters. Definitely real humans, not bots. It sucks but it is still a reality here for sure.
Oh how quickly we forget lol.
These people haven't even been on the site for a month, so they didn't exactly forget lol
Yeah sorry I’m new here and just argued with a rape apologist on reddit so the people on here are a little more tame by comparison
I, a real person on this site, am basing this on my experiences on this site. Not "being used to assholes and bots on reddit."
I was risking frustration. But with an ellipsis in front of it.
Risking... frustration. The capital F was autocorrect.
@smores provided a fuller explanation already and I cosign the whole bit especially as a nonbinary demi-gender woman.
I agree with almost everything you've written, but I'd like to offer a bit of a Marxist critique as to the "Not All Men" section of your comment.
In general, it seems like there is a missing class-dynamics discussion around the affluence of the perpetrators. Whenever I read about a disturbing case like the 2024 Cornell case, it feels like the perpetrators often come from a distinct type of affluent, male predator that is shielded behind layers of social, administrative and legal protections.
I agree that 85% of the participants in the group chat being passive observers to a rape is disturbing. It personally sickens me.
However, I think a lot of the Feminist discussion of these issues has been derelict of the affluence of the perpetrators. As such, I'd like to ask this:
In our society, does "Men's passive participation in rape culture" exist as a cross-societal problem, or is it primarily an issue in affluent areas of American/Anglo society where perpetrators are given enhanced social, legal, and administrative protections?
Specifically, I ask this because my experiences have lead me to conclude that while our society inherently has massive issues with sexism, most men that I have lived and worked around do not seem complicate in "rape culture," even passively. While men I am around may be passively sexist, doing such examples as: passing women over for promotions, discounting the work of woman collaborators, downplaying the needs and perspectives of women socially... I've never directly observed men being passively complicit in rape culture. This is a perspective that has endured before AND after I transitioned.
However, I know that I am on the lower end of the economic spectrum. I went to a second-tier State University, I've worked around people without university education, and I live in a lower class neighborhood. I also live in a Northern city with a strong history of social justice.
Regardless, I am afraid of here, is that there exists a distinct class of men who, for whatever reason, (economic, moral, social, personal, etc.) do not participate in "Rape Culture" and if anything, are allies against it. Maybe they're too economically disadvantaged to further any political/social opinion that doesn't actively affect them. Maybe they're so socially isolated, that they don't bother participate. Maybe they're a paragon of virtue, but no one has ever asked them to do anything about it in an actual way. None of these men could be described as being "complicit in rape culture," and might actually be feminist allies to the issue.
However, an affluent group of men (and women) exist outside of this class, and either actively or passively participates in Rape Culture. These people are entirely complicit, and are able to continue to get away with their crimes via legal and economic protections. They can afford good lawyers, can move across borders readily and easily, and their privilege allows them social connections with judges and prosecutors.
If the feminist argument here is that "men are complicit in rape culture if they..." and this argument is directed at ALL men, instead of a group of wealthy perpetrators with social and economic protections.... we're not discussing the issue. Instead, we're alienating people who absolutely are not complicit, instead of examining the cultural factors that allow these acts to happen.
What's weird about the 85% figure, is also the fact that 85% of the student body of Cornell is affluent. In my experience, when lower and middle class people are accused of Gang Rape, their outcomes are not the same as those of the affluent. What scares me, is the idea of someone being able to use their privilege and influence to evade justice, and then an ensuing culture war that completely evades discussing how material conditions change outcomes.
I agree with you as to the problem of Rape Culture. I think we're afraid to discuss how much wealth is a cause of it.
I don't disagree that wealth is a factor in how these men were treated and how they felt free to treat this woman. If anything her access to familial supports are likely why she's able to sue (I don't know her)
However while high profile and wealthy examples make the news, it is not my personal experience that class makes a difference in participation in rape culture. There's no indication that sexual assault occurs more or less by class or education level of the perpetrators. And while we know our criminal justice system has a class bias it also has a bias against victims of sexual assault. A very strong one that leads to reporting issues as well as conviction issues.
However rape culture isn't just engaging in the act. It's laughing at the jokes. It's being a bystander. It's getting online and questioning if we really know the truth of what happened, because she did drink after all. It's not believing victims unless theyre "perfect." It's not believing the people in your life when they say it's pervasive. It's telling a child to "cover up", when their uncle comes over, rather than banning said uncle from the house. It's laughing at the downfall of Me Too. It's supporting R Kelly (and Chris Brown, and whatever football player is accused of domestic violence this year but is too good to fire; because if you think you have the right to assault someone having the right to sexually assault someone is not a far step.) It's jokes about prison rape being in SpongeBob cartoons.
Few people will say "yeah I raped someone" but if you ask about specific behaviors that are sexual assault - sex with someone too drunk to consent for example - more people will say yes.
It's also not just men. Women and nonbinary people participate in rape culture too. So yeah I believe you that the people you know aren't rapists and wouldn't stand aside when something was happening. But that doesn't mean they avoid it entirely, and if they do, it doesn't mean most people are.
So yeah, lots of words to say I think class is always a factor in outcome and even in access, but most women are assaulted by someone they know, she was friends with at least one of these guys. The person who.... Crossed consent lines... With me was not well off. I don't think it's primarily a class issue.
And if people are alienated by this, then we're right back to "not all men" and the idea that only the 15% were to blame.
Honestly, I think you're correct. I will always genuinely wonder how informed my opinions are based on my region, social class, and what areas/eras of society I exist in. Even weirder, is the thought that it could be entirely possible that we're both entirely correct - but only for our own unique demographics. Perhaps a well written research paper exists that could offer us better understanding, or will be written, long from now. I digress.
What bothers me, is that I don't know how our society is actually supposed to even approach this issue. Complicit rape culture is clearly a problem in America. Unfortunately, my personal, jaded experience is that complicity to heinous problems just seem the norm in our society. I can point to how the American/Anglo culture is complicit in colonialism, segregation, climate change, imperialism, and needless carnage, and has been for my lifetime.
Furthermore, duty to intervene is something that seems actively discouraged by our society. I will cite examples if requested, but our society seems to have a strong preference for privacy in all matters, which absolutely is an aspect of the complicity issue.
And as a trans woman, in my experiences in trans spaces, even a heinous crime like a gang rape is simply par for the course. I don't mean to surrender into whataboutism, but consider the following point:
As we are both writing from a country that's willing to elect a rapist to the highest position of power... I think our feminist thinkers need to revisit how effective feminist messaging has actually been in the last 30 years. It honestly bothers and scares me that the current state of feminist discourse, is seeing an article about a woman getting gang raped at an Ivy League school with no consequences, and then seeing the same messaging that I grew up reading about 'college rape culture' in the 2000s.
If we are a nation of people who are complicit in all manner of harm, and we refuse to reflect on how are efforts to change this have failed, then I wonder if we are truly damned, in the face of all just words and effort we claim to desire.
I don't believe justice exists. However, I believe in attempts to make a more just world. On the topic of rape culture, I see feminist messaging that is often absolutely true, but does not, in my opinion and experience, create allies, spark thoughtful conversation, or further a more just world. In a sentence, I see feminist messaging that scolds and folds, rather than creates a framework to attempt a better future.
I don't know how to create a more just world and future. I think we desire the same things, a more equitable, just world, where fewer people are left in harms way, and where perpetrators are adequately held responsible.
I agree with everything you've said, I quibble with on the impact of the perspective. I hope that my respect for you and this issue comes clear in my responses, and please let me know if I need to elaborate, or am especially disrespectful in any of my opinions.
No need to worry about disrespect or anything at all. This is a worthwhile conversation and I'd broadly agree that moving towards justice is more "true" than finding it. And I also worry about where we are and what we can do.
I thought about this with the University of Florida sextortion case I posted a few weeks back. There were many layers of protection such as the frat, the likely rich parents, the perpetrators being on sports teams, and the school wanting to protect is reputation. The article talked about how that victim came from an average background but wanted to fit in with the rich kids at school so she joined a sorority and went to go party with the frat boys, only to end up in a similar situation as above (with added sextortion and social media exposure). And after all of that, she ended up trying to hang out with clavicular for some reason. That article touched on classism but not as much as I would've liked since I was thinking along the lines of what you said, and in that case I was wondering why the victim felt the need to fit in with rich assholes rather than the plethora of other interesting people you meet at a university. And seeing as she was hanging out with clavicular and trying to gain a social media following I kind of felt like the victim missed the bigger picture of her own victimization.
I feel like a group chat of ~50 that has 7 people eager to commit rape isn't a good source for people willing to stop rape in the process of being committed.
It obviously wasn't. That's the point. I'm saying it's the bottom image not the top one.
I am also not basing all of my beliefs on this one incident and trying to explain why people are angry and what "not all men" ignores.
As I said, I expected this, not because they're in a fraternity.
People are understandably appalled, and justifiable so. I find the whole thing sickening as well.
But I think what @teaearlgraycold is saying is a group chat of Frat Bros is not a valid sample of 'all men'. Unironically not all men are frat bros.
People are free to believe whatever they want, but personally I find that bottom image incredibly black pilled and not productive or healthy as a prior belief. I 'm not naive enough to think it's the top image, and of course there is a gradient but I just think it looks better than that.
I think the bottom image is certainly a better representation of reality than the top one. If I had to guess at proportions I'd skew things a bit differently, but it gets the point across.
I agree it's probably closer to reality than the top and that all people are biased to inaction. I don't think literally half of men harbor what I'd classify as anti-women opinions, but maybe I live in a bubble.
Yeah I don't agree about it being "anything-pilled" and I am quite frustrated with the several subthreads here telling me how to feel or not to feel or how I'm coming to the wrong conclusions because my sample size is small or wrongly constructed.
It is ironic since it actually confirms what I'm saying. Plus the point was to understand where the rage is coming from, telling the angry traumatized people that they're too nihilistic is unproductive.
I'm specifically not trying to tell you how to feel, only offering my opinion. Nor did I necessarily think or mean to imply you were signing off on every detail of the image you linked.
I don't think believing that one out of every two men is a misogynist and one out of every four is a predator is productive. Not all beliefs need to be productive, if someone feels angry as a result of their trauma I don't begrudge them. I just think at a macro level, if a significant amount of people hold that belief how does society even function? We're getting close to replacing #NotAllMen with #AllMen...
You weren't the only response I was referring to in that statement. You got the reply because you chose to try to explain one of those responses to me that required zero explanation.
"Not all men" is usually the counter to "men". It's not the original statement. It's already the response to anger, rage, and trauma. Men never meant "all men". The point isn't productivity or logic. The point is trying to explain the feelings and the experience. That chart isn't to scale or proportionate. You'll notice a distinct lack of number or norming. The point is that Not All Men is not useful or relevant.
Every woman I talked to about the Cornell case at work was upset, they said they cried reading it, they were pissed, etc. I work in higher ed, so we're of course more tuned in to this story. But I wanted to explain why we're not just outraged at the specific situation and why "women choose the bear" and why there's disdain for the idea that men are "protectors" and the other rhetoric of men's podcasts these days (some deeply misogynist). Because the response to "without men who would protect you" is "protect me from what?"
This isn't about hating "all men" it's the emotion behind the song "Labour", it's watching the domestic violence cases come in, it's not knowing who would speak up if something did happen, and who would shame and blame you, and it's a large proportion of women having experienced sexual assault/abuse watching yet another woman have to be very very brave.
The problem with the complaint about numbers is that we certainly don't have any evidence that 1 out of 50 would have called the police in another situation. We don't have evidence that it's the fact that they're in a fraternity that made no one speak up. We even have anecdotal evidence in this thread of a Cornell fraternity guy stopping sexual assault before it happened. What we have is not a single person in that group chat reporting the case - because it wasn't reported until she did, three weeks later, as far as we know.
Not a single one. Trying to negotiate over how many men are how good and how "passive" vs "active" they are is not meaningful. Because this is not an intellectual exercise. I am trying to convey emotion and elicit empathy.
ETA, saw a creator say this "it's not all men, until we're telling our daughters how to behave" and I'll add, it's not all men until we're "joking" about the shotgun when the date comes around. It's not all men until it's about controlling women and then "she should have known better".
Those are all very fair points, I get where you're coming from.
For me, this is the point when I'm commenting on a news article. I like to think about systems, about incentives, about how to make the world a better place and my comments are usually pointed in that direction.
I get that but intellectualizing emotion is counterproductive here where I tried to be quite clear about the purpose. You can obviously still do it, but I'm telling you why I am not receiving that in a positive manner, though again, other posts were more egregious in regards to the other parts of that comment.
But more effective then would not be talking about something being black pilled and pulling actual data on bystander intervention in sexual assault from men.and similar. Because if we're going to intellectualize it, show the data that supports what you think not just criticizing because you think it's incorrect. I'd genuinely love to see data that shows a more positive outlook, but I tend to find people falling into that "well meaning but underestimates the problem" category instead of doing the research.
I know my comment gets into the weeds, but since you mentioned not all guys are frat bros and since I've been vocal about my time in my fraternity, I figured I would add that not all frat bros are complicit in stuff like this.
I don't pretend to be a guy living in my college glory days, but I do bring up that I was a member and stories around it in part because it was a formative part of my young adult life and an experience that was profoundly beneficial to me as person and to many of my brothers. I went through some struggles and I feel like having a space for young men to be young men was exactly what I needed at that point in my life.
Guys like this spit on all the good that fraternity membership offers and I, along with all of the brothers whom I've talked to about this, hope they get the book thrown at them. Including the guys who did nothing. It's clear this chapter's culture was rotten to the core if not a single person said "hey, that's fucked up" and tried to stop this from happening.
When I was a member of our fraternity's governing body we never had anything as heinous as this, but such an action would have their charter pulled and all active members expelled. Even locally we would drop pledges who acted creepy or if we got multiple reports of them doing off putting things around women (multiple because we wanted to be sure and not judge someone potentially just being awkward or having a bad social situation or even the woman in question conflating them with someone else during a social event which unsurprisingly can happen when alcohol is involved). Members being creeps were brought up to our judiciary board and 2 strikes would result in a trial for expulsion at our next chapter meeting.
I am aware of what they're saying, it's not the point I'm making not what I'm basing my opinion on. It's a recent relevant example.
I would argue that this image is completely in line with what "not all men" entails. In fact, it should probably be generalized to overall "proactively trying to help" to "proactively trying to harm" scale, with most people being somewhere in the "passive" space. The exact proportions will likely vary by culture, upbringing, etc. I don't think men are uniquely worse or better in this regard. It's just men are pretty universally the initiators and pursuers (at least in the cultures that I experienced), so the sexual predation, intentional or accidental, unfortunately comes with that.
Seems about right. I think in general most people are afraid to speak up against things. But in an unbiased sampling of 50 men you'd have at least one that would go to the police immediately.
I'd love to see a study that shows that!
ETA: since the vast majority of assaults are believed to go unreported, and 1/3 of assaults have a 3rd party present.... I don't know if that math holds up
Absolutely horrifying. I avoided joining a frat because of stories like this, but I can't help but wonder if I, too, would've stayed silent at that age. I should look up bystander training for these situations.
I don't want all the blame to go to fraternities. I have plenty of issues with Greek life, but this is not something where my expectations were low because it was a frat. The fraternity just made the group chat larger and in this case provided a physical location but this is pervasive.
Yes, agreed. See Professional and amateur hockey in here Canada, where I'm now giving up on my favourite team in my favourite sport because they couldn't meet the low low bar of not signing one of the accused in one of the highest profile rape cases in Canadian history because He WaS nOt FoUnD GuIlTy (actually ruled inconclusive). I read all the texts myself and the testimony. Even if most of it was found inadmissible as evidence due to time and alcohol, you're still scum, Oilers.
Defnitely agree, this behavior is not in any way unique to Greek life
I was friends with a lot of frat guys who were not like that, but I've met some of the shitty racist/sexist ones. Like any other friend group it really sounds like who's around you, frats just have a weird power dynamic.
Also surprising because I've met so many smart Cornell alumni and students, including feminists and LGBTQ activists.
As someone who went to Cornell and finally found my way to the activists at the end of my undergrad, I would hazard a guess that the reason you've met so many smart, progressive, active Cornell alumni and students is that there is an ever-present counterculture that exists largely in response to the dominant culture of wealth, toxic masculinity, Greek life, and an administration that gives fuck all about any of it. The classic historical evidence for this is the Willard Straight Hall takeover in 1969. I don't really think that fight has ended.
Yes, I have friends who were in frats too who I don't believe would have condoned this but figured I should stay away from that to avoid devolving the tenor of the comments in a way that OP is clearly worried about. Ultimately we don't know what they would or wouldn't have done, hence my musing and thinking about bystander training. And agreed about trying to teach our young boys better.
I went right to this, it is very hard to find reporting on what Cornell did in this investigation even when NY state is criticizing this. I posted earlier about the girl at the University of Florida dealing with a similar situation, so it triggered me to look for the details on that and I hope the reality comes to light. It really sounds like the investigation was poor.
Also, with the "not all men" I like to imagine that a lot of my friends would pull someone out or send a girl home with her friends when she is intoxicated like that, but it unfortunately seems like culture is shifting further and further downward. I'll do my part and reinforce this with the younger men in my life, but it seems a lot of men aren't doing that with their boys. We need outside accountability, but it seems law enforcement isn't upholding their end either.
There's a bit more reporting coming out - The DA was being rather victim blame-y about how "her story changed" but then came out and said they replied on the university investigation.
But yes, title IX investigations are private and that is protected by law. And that is both good and bad, and makes accountability difficult, especially without a federal enforcement mechanism.
Do we know for a fact that none of them reported anything? Apparently the chat was reported using screenshots and I'm not sure how those would have been acquired without anyone speaking up in some way. Not that it excuses anything. What I'm curious about is if this was a (semi-)regular occurrence in this chat and this is the only occurrence we know about.
Without in any way meaning to justify anyone's behavior (or inaction), or implying this chat group is in any way redeemable (especially because I lack information), I just want to point out that I am in many chat groups that I don't read, ever. I want to at least hope there are a handful of victims of circumstance in there.
Yeah, not the time or place, so hopefully an off-topic tag keeps this off the radar so the discussion can focus on a real issue, but fuck group chats.
Also today, the federal administration partially rescinded Title IX protections. Other outlets are describing the change as removing protections for LGBTQ+ students and allowing universities leeway not to proactively investigate.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2026/09/28/education-department-officially-scraps-biden-era-title-ix-rules/
Yeah I'm not sure what changes happen here because I think these didn't get implemented. The initial changes during his first term I think still held. But they were trying to change the rule and didn't get it done. Sigh
They have talked about revoking T9 entirely which isn't just about sexual assault, dealing with sexual assault is sort of a side effect of the overarching principal that women should have equal access and opportunities in education. To achieve that you need to ensure sexual assaults are handled appropriately. (To achieve that you need equal sports opportunities, etc.)
It will be worse, especially in this current world, if these are rolled back.
Edit: did more research, still not sure if we ever fully got away from these rules but they 100% set a higher standard of proof, set a higher standard for what sexual harassment is, and but an increased onus on reporting students to participate in "courtroom like" hearings.
Bleh
I believe there are more men accused of sexual assault in this case than there are trans women in college sports. Bull shit he's talking about it being about trans people.
A new fuck you to anyone who didn't hold the line on trans rights. Welcome to the new cover for attacking women's rights.
I don’t have anything useful to add but reading this made me furious. Fuck Cornell. And everyone who helped minimize and sweep this horrific crime under the rug.
The tone from the DA's statement rubs me the wrong way, almost like they're victim blaming the Jane Doe. It's disappointing to see how often sexual harassment/assault occurs in universities. It's clear that a lack of accountability is part of what leads to assault being so common and frequent. One of the universities I attended has a part of campus dedicated to greek life housing with strict oversight and rules. Despite this, sexual assault is still insanely common purely because these groups simply go off-campus and into rented housing away from the eyes of the university and commit these crimes. Since these crimes are off campus, these crimes aren't handled by the university police force either. As a result, to the university, the move to centralize control over greek life worked because their police force deals with less sexual assault cases, while actual numbers have not changed at all.
Fwiw if those assaults are reported to the school they still get tracked..I don't know if it makes them not Cleary reportable but the number of title ix cases is still a metric. (And local police typically report everything involving students to the university, from fake IDs and underage consumption on up to CSAM and threats against the president)
But it can certainly improve the marketing.
However idk if there's a better solution - without on campus housing for all students, most students will live off campus anyway - regardless of Greek life. And this happens at all sorts of parties, on and off campus, in and out of Greek life, while watching a movie in your dorm room.
It makes sense to try to control what you can as an institution to reduce some risk potentially.
But I agree about the DA's statements. They're just pissy they're getting media coverage for a "fail"
Yeah I don't mean to bash the university for trying to keep greek life under control with the on-campus housing, in other metrics it's actually helped a lot since it also includes university staff monitoring things. It's a difficult issue overall because even with all the extra university oversight into these organizations, people still go above and beyond to do heinous things.
I am just going to add a link to this video - tiktok. YT mirror. The comments are full of people joining in, especially on Tiktok.
I don't have anything else to say.
I thought I was done. Until they doxxed Jane Doe on Twitter.
I don't know whether it was the groyper Nazi, or the Chi Phi alum who said "help a Chi Phi" (what does that imply) or Michael Tracey who was actively and proudly trying to dox her... I don't know who actually did.
You want to guess what the comments are full of? You want to guess who the comments are made by?
Don't report? Liar. Do report? Liar. Doesn't matter, either way you'll be called a whore.
I want to add that allegedly 1 person in the 57 member chat (the numbers have varied, I'm not redoing my math) sent her the screenshots after the fact. Also additional rather damning messages have been shared.
So right now, best case scenario is 1/57... I'll round it up to 2%.
That is not a victory. That is the literal bare minimum.
The rage has not decreased. I literally had a student disclose to me today. And not want to report... Because "he didn't mean it."