Better to have and not need than to need and not have. It’s a once a year pain in the ass. You can always give it up but it can be difficult to get. It may be made more difficult to get back...
Better to have and not need than to need and not have. It’s a once a year pain in the ass. You can always give it up but it can be difficult to get. It may be made more difficult to get back because you gave it up in the past. You can never know the future. You may need it for some unforeseen circumstances.
I love the "but America will save you" reasoning whenever someone asks about this. No, they won't. Embassies are mostly useless for your average citizen unless you are in some extreme, well...
I love the "but America will save you" reasoning whenever someone asks about this.
No, they won't. Embassies are mostly useless for your average citizen unless you are in some extreme, well reported situation that 99% of people will never experience.
War breaks out? Well, the embassy warned everyone to get out on their Facebook page ages ago. Good luck figuring out an escape plan now.
Dictatorship legal problems? Auto-generated email with a list of recommended local lawyers you can hire.
Free general embassy services? American Citizen Services charges for everything.
The taxes you would pay if you make enough to cross that threshold, would basically never be spent on anything that you would benefit from, as your local European home country taxes and services already cover everything (and probably better).
I don't know where you're getting this from, the US has a long and well proven history of flexing its military logistics might to rescue both US citizens and foreign allies in crisis situations...
War breaks out? Well, the embassy warned everyone to get out on their Facebook page ages ago. Good luck figuring out an escape plan now.
Let's also not forget well reported efforts of the US to free citizens unlawfully detained in foreign countries or rescue operations of citizens who have been kidnapped.
Fair enough. My point was that it's not like the movies where you just run to the nearest embassy with bombs exploding everywhere, and snipers shooting at you, and you as an individual get saved...
Fair enough. My point was that it's not like the movies where you just run to the nearest embassy with bombs exploding everywhere, and snipers shooting at you, and you as an individual get saved by Marines and privately air lifted out.
Also, I did qualify all of this by pointing out that it applies to situations that 99% of people won't experience, and when it does it is usually something that is widely covered by the media. You basically just pointed out those 1% of events that also had wide media coverage (which is ok).
You mentioned the covid evacuations in Wuhan. Similar situations happened all over Asia.... Except the process was this (I lived it personally, but didn't leave).
US Embassy Facebook:
t = 0 - Citizens should probably leave while you can (you pay)
t = 1 - You should really think about leaving (you pay)
t = 3 - We have chartered some flights, leave now (but you still need to pay for it)
t = 4 - You're on your own if you're still here
...
At which point it turned into individuals arranging chartered flights via local Facebook groups.
Your last two examples are somewhat extreme. Usually the unlawful detainment aid happens after a bunch of other expats have made noise and contacted the embassy, the embassy has form emailed then the list of local lawyers, and the problem still exists. Then the diplomats will get involved. As for kidnappings, I think that again falls into my "1%" (number pulled out of my ass) of things most people considering giving up their citizenship won't have to worry about. But again fair point... But also if you have dual citizenship with a decent country, they might try the same (or enlist the help of the US), without expecting you to pay taxes to them when you don't even live in the country or ever/rarely use any of it's services.
This makes the most sense, IMO. I’m also a dual U.S. and European citizen, and the idea of giving one up is crazy to me. Yeah, there are some minor hassles, but those are not easy citizenships to...
This makes the most sense, IMO. I’m also a dual U.S. and European citizen, and the idea of giving one up is crazy to me. Yeah, there are some minor hassles, but those are not easy citizenships to acquire. Being born into both is an incredible stroke of luck, and the flexibility it offers is fantastic. There literally isn’t a better passport than those two, and having both let’s you go just about anywhere in the Western world.
Can you please elaborate on why your father is paying taxes now in retirement? I could only imagine that scenario if he is withdrawing US-based investments, which then he rightfully needs to pay...
Can you please elaborate on why your father is paying taxes now in retirement? I could only imagine that scenario if he is withdrawing US-based investments, which then he rightfully needs to pay the taxes, or your country somehow does not have a double taxation treaty with the US - but maybe I'm entirely wrong.
To the first bullet in your list, I find that pretty disengenious on your part. Holding a US passport does entitle you to many services, including rescue abroad, regardless of if you decide to use them or not. Just because your home country also offers these services does not mean that the US does not offer you anthing. I don't want to pass judgement on your comments but they do come off as a little ungrateful. Even locked away, that passport affords you options and opportunities that billions of other people would love to have - you even recognize that you'd like to pass those options on to your children one day.
I left the US a decade ago which made me accutely aware of what it means to hold citizenship to a place where you don't live. I love my host nation and have no real plans to move back to the US but the least I can do is respect the citizenship that I hold even if my connections to my homeland become more tenuous by the day and I there's a lot that I don't agree with over there.
Edit: One thing I meant to point out, we never know what the future holds. People have asked me if I'd ever give up my US passport and I said no. Aside from my own version of patriotism and loyalty it's an insurance policy if I ever have to go back. How much do you value the insurance of knowing that you can go to the US if things ever go down hill where you live now?
I shudder to think what would have become of all the Indians in Uganda when Idi Amin expelled them if the Republic of India and other Commonwealth nations weren't willing to take them in.
One thing I meant to point out, we never know what the future holds. People have asked me if I'd ever give up my US passport and I said no. Aside from my own version of patriotism and loyalty it's an insurance policy if I ever have to go back. How much do you value the insurance of knowing that you can go to the US if things ever go down hill where you live now?
I shudder to think what would have become of all the Indians in Uganda when Idi Amin expelled them if the Republic of India and other Commonwealth nations weren't willing to take them in.
As an American that has lived abroad, yeah, the taxes are a pain and frustrating. The passport is useful, though admittedly, a European passport is equally, if not more so. Since your income is...
As an American that has lived abroad, yeah, the taxes are a pain and frustrating. The passport is useful, though admittedly, a European passport is equally, if not more so. Since your income is below the taxation threshold for now, I'd punt the decision. Filing the paperwork is a pain, but not really onerous. If dealing with the taxes does become onerous, it is at that point that I would make the decision.
I do agree you aren't really using any services from the US, though you also aren't paying for them either, so that evens out. If you ever find yourself in a bad situation while abroad, you have two embassies that can help you, rather than one, which is nice. Like you noted, if you have kids, they would get citizenship too which could be very useful for them if they choose to study or work in the US.
In summary, I think as it currently stands, the pros of citizenship currently out weight the cons of filing some paperwork for taxes, but that balance might change in the future.
I also want to note that history is fickle. Our relatively peaceful modern era gives the impression that history is over and all that's left to do is work, enjoy life, and save for retirement, but...
I also want to note that history is fickle. Our relatively peaceful modern era gives the impression that history is over and all that's left to do is work, enjoy life, and save for retirement, but it's not over: this is only really the beginning of the rest of human history.
Things are going to change a lot within the next 50 years. Having dual citizenship means hedging your future with the two most successful human projects.
Within the next 50 years, the American project may collapse; but the European project is also fragile, perhaps even more so because of economic and demographic pressures that are now driving far-right movements across European nations.
The EU's monetary system has some major fundamental flaws, like the limited ability of European nations to set their own monetary policy. This mean seem abstract, but European nations have proven to be much less resilient to recessions.
US is virtually self-sufficient for its energy needs, which undergird all economic activity. The EU is very dependent on energy imports. The Russian invasion of Ukraine threatened the EU's natural gas supply. The recent coup in Niger threatens—if I recall correctly—a third of France's uranium supply, which is dangerous for France which chose to rely heavily on nuclear power. This fragility means that the European economy can be easily disrupted and upended by global events that affect its energy supplies.
I'm glad I could offer a novel perspective. I'm an idealist and a romantic and I hope that humanity can cooperate to solve its problem peacefully and that rest of our lifetimes will be filled with...
I'm glad I could offer a novel perspective.
I'm an idealist and a romantic and I hope that humanity can cooperate to solve its problem peacefully and that rest of our lifetimes will be filled with peaceful rational international cooperation.
But the realist in me knows that there will be violent irrational international discord and plenty of it.
That being said, I've recently seen a future projection of uninhabitable areas of Planet Earth. It was terrifying to say the least. The entire African equator region up to southern Europe, practically all of Southeast Asia, northern Australia and all of Central America were deemed uninhabitable due to rising temperatures. Those people will migrate North and South. There's no telling what will happen thereafter, but I am certain it won't be pretty.
Indeed. I'm a pessimist on climate change. I think our institutions and economic incentives drive us toward inevitable climate catastrophe. But the realist in me knows that when push comes to shove over resources and land, powerful nations or supranational actors like the US and the EU will probably prevail through sheer military, financial, and scientific might.
Americans and Europeans will be shielded from the worst effects of climate change because their governments can afford to rebuild after disasters, build seawalls, and so on. But Europe will be under heavy pressure from the influx of the climate refugees from Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. The United States is relatively insulated from the impending climate refugee crisis.
May as well keep it as long as the tax burden is low. There are options that allow you to vote in federal elections if you so choose and the passport can be useful if you're ever visiting the US...
May as well keep it as long as the tax burden is low. There are options that allow you to vote in federal elections if you so choose and the passport can be useful if you're ever visiting the US or one of its territories. The passport might also someday be useful if things change and a country you're visiting ends up souring on Europe but sticks with the US or something like that.
I would not give it up unless the financial burden began to impact other financial goals of yours. A citizenship is a very valuable thing, and despite associated burdens and headaches, USA is a...
I would not give it up unless the financial burden began to impact other financial goals of yours. A citizenship is a very valuable thing, and despite associated burdens and headaches, USA is a very valuable citizenship. While you may not need it now, it is hard to predict whether living or working in the US will be beneficial to you down the road. Having dual citizenship can even make you attractive to employers, should the opportunity arise that a company you're working at is seeking to grow in the US. It seems much too valuable to me to give up because filing taxes are a burden. One metric might be whether having it is costing you more than it would cost to hypothetically go through the immigration process to obtain one (just a thought experiment to put a value on it).
One thing I don't quite follow is this:
However, there is an aspect I'd like to avoid: my father has reached retirement age and is now being heavily taxed by the US. He also has never lived or worked in the US.
Why is he being taxed? Is he a US citizen, or is it somehow because you are? How exactly would giving up your citizenship affect this?
Indeed. Despite its many problems and flaws, the US is still the undisputed hyperpower of the world in not just military power but finance, science, technology, agriculture, sport, arts and...
Indeed. Despite its many problems and flaws, the US is still the undisputed hyperpower of the world in not just military power but finance, science, technology, agriculture, sport, arts and culture, and every imaginable facet of human economic life. An American citizenship is very valuable indeed.
I considered naturalizing in the Netherlands when I was coming up on my 5 year mark there but decided against it because doing so would require forfeiting my American citizenship. Despite how wonderfully livable the Netherlands and the rest of Europe are, the fact is that the European economy is languishing while the American economy is surging ahead in every sector.
Maybe someday I'd like to create my own company — but that would certainly bring me back into the US orbit.
I'd recommend just paying someone to do your US taxes for you.
You probably know this, but just in case you don’t: to pass US citizenship on, you (or your partner) must be a US citizen who has lived in the United States. The amount of time you have to have...
I'd also like my future children (family planning is underway) to get their US citizenship first before potentially handing back my US passport.
You probably know this, but just in case you don’t: to pass US citizenship on, you (or your partner) must be a US citizen who has lived in the United States. The amount of time you have to have lived there depends on your circumstances, but if you never lived there and neither did your partner, your kids will not be US citizens at birth (unless they’re born in the US).
Maybe it’s better to remain ignorant on this point but… The real pain with being a US citizen living outside the US is not that you have to file taxes. It’s the rules about PFICs. It makes it...
Maybe it’s better to remain ignorant on this point but…
The real pain with being a US citizen living outside the US is not that you have to file taxes. It’s the rules about PFICs. It makes it nearly impossible to responsibly plan for retirement.
That and: To clarify, these are not special or unusual benefits. Basically any investment you make through a local brokerage will have these characteristics. Want to buy an index fund? Sorry, it’s...
That and:
U.S. investors who own shares of a PFIC must file IRS Form 8621. This form is used to report actual distributions and gains, along with income and increases in QEF elections. The tax form 8621 is a lengthy, complicated form that the IRS itself estimates may take more than 40 hours to fill out.
To clarify, these are not special or unusual benefits. Basically any investment you make through a local brokerage will have these characteristics. Want to buy an index fund? Sorry, it’s a PFIC. The other option is to move your money to the US and invest there. But then not only are you exposed to currency risk, but your life savings is now sitting in an account that almost certainly has “must reside in the United States” in its TOS.
Nevermind that now the laws of a foreign country (the US) apply, and as a EU citizen those can be weird and/or hostile. And it's much harder to get in touch with customer service of a US bank from...
The other option is to move your money to the US and invest there.
Nevermind that now the laws of a foreign country (the US) apply, and as a EU citizen those can be weird and/or hostile. And it's much harder to get in touch with customer service of a US bank from Europe.
Also, most brokerages will explicitly ask for US citizenship when you apply, and outright reject you. Apparently for them the bureaucratic hassle isn't worth it either.
It's only the US that's overreaching like this. Everyone else just gets along.
yeah when my partner and I talked to a financial advisor we were told outright that I couldn't invest in most of the options bc I'm a US-citizen. Luckily, at least according to them, my...
yeah when my partner and I talked to a financial advisor we were told outright that I couldn't invest in most of the options bc I'm a US-citizen. Luckily, at least according to them, my non-US-citizen partner could do that investing instead apparently.
Yes, as far as I understood the election options, before deciding it's not something I want to be involved in, one of the better options is to tax all unrealized profits as if they were realized...
Yes, as far as I understood the election options, before deciding it's not something I want to be involved in, one of the better options is to tax all unrealized profits as if they were realized each year.
Currently all my money is sitting in savings accounts...
If you travel to the us, you may face increased scrutiny on account of having given up the citizenship. That's one of the reasons I haven't given up mine, suck though it does.
If you travel to the us, you may face increased scrutiny on account of having given up the citizenship. That's one of the reasons I haven't given up mine, suck though it does.
If you have a Western European passport - you probably don't even need a visa to enter the US, but just need to file an ESTA. Costs something trivial like $20 and lasts two years.
If you have a Western European passport - you probably don't even need a visa to enter the US, but just need to file an ESTA. Costs something trivial like $20 and lasts two years.
The only downside I see with having a dual citizenship is if you earn more than 150K a year, cause the US will tax you even if you don’t live here. Otherwise the benefits of dual citizenship...
The only downside I see with having a dual citizenship is if you earn more than 150K a year, cause the US will tax you even if you don’t live here. Otherwise the benefits of dual citizenship outweighs the downsides.
I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't should you give up your US passport, the question is why should you keep it? Is it doing anything useful for you? It doesn't sound like...
I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't should you give up your US passport, the question is why should you keep it? Is it doing anything useful for you? It doesn't sound like it.
People have suggested it might be good insurance if things go badly but if things have gone so badly in the EU that moving to the US is an improvement then you'll probably qualify as a refugee and can move to Canada or Australia or something anyway. If you do suddenly want to move to the US for work it's not that hard to get a visa when coming from the EU. I have several friends who have done that and it was a bit of paperwork but far from impossible.
I think this is kind of under-selling things. My wife is currently trying to get a spousal green card (she is currently a EU citizen), and despite this being one of the few basically "guaranteed"...
If you do suddenly want to move to the US for work it's not that hard to get a visa when coming from the EU. I have several friends who have done that and it was a bit of paperwork but far from impossible.
I think this is kind of under-selling things. My wife is currently trying to get a spousal green card (she is currently a EU citizen), and despite this being one of the few basically "guaranteed" ways to get US residency on a timeline, it has been far from smooth and has upended a lot of our plans for the present and near future. Getting employment-based visas is typically harder, and it is heavily reliant on your employer wanting to sponsor it, which will basically only happen if they cannot find someone already with US work authorization to fill the role. Once you get it, many work visas are conditional on you staying with the company that is on the visa application, and if you want to switch jobs you might have to go through the process again. It can significantly reduce your freedom as a worker and makes it easier for companies to exploit you. This is speaking from experience of having to navigate this with my wife recently, so maybe things have changed since your friends went through the process. In any case, I would definitely not describe it as "a bit of paperwork".
I think as long as the tax burden is minimal, which it currently sounds like, it doesn't make sense to give up something which is on paper very valuable.
Fair enough, it's been a few years since I last knew someone go through the process. The last would have done under Obama and there's been plenty of opportunity to make migration harder since...
Fair enough, it's been a few years since I last knew someone go through the process. The last would have done under Obama and there's been plenty of opportunity to make migration harder since then.
on paper very valuable
It's only valuable if you value the idea of living in the US. Just speaking personally - while I have a lot of American friends and they are very lovely people, I would never want to live there.
This also has to do with your birth country (not your current country of citizenship fwiw). Like gpl mentioned, you are for the most part tied to the company for possibly a long time (depending on...
This also has to do with your birth country (not your current country of citizenship fwiw). Like gpl mentioned, you are for the most part tied to the company for possibly a long time (depending on your birth country and the size of the queue). Switching companies if you wish can be very difficult (companies don't necessarily want the headache of dealing with the additional paperwork for sponsoring you, so will favor a US citizen). The employer is well aware and many people do get exploited, I'm sorry to say. The process is also expensive.. I'm not saying OP will ever want to work in the US, but getting citizenship via employment can be very difficult and a big headache, and wanted to reiterate that point for others looking on. this thread, who might be considering the same as OP This was the case even a few years ago, during Obama as well, it is just the US immigration process.
It's only valuable if you value the idea of living in the US. Just speaking personally - while I have a lot of American friends and they are very lovely people, I would never want to live there.
EDIT: You never know what the future holds. The value is in having that opportunity, for any reason in the future that you can't even predict yet. (I made this edit a bit later after re-reading this discussion; sorry if that is out of the culture of this place.)
Knowing Europe I really doubt you earn enough to pay US taxes as a citizen living abroad. I wish I had a privilege of having both US and EU citizenship. It's like a lottery win to have both.
Knowing Europe I really doubt you earn enough to pay US taxes as a citizen living abroad. I wish I had a privilege of having both US and EU citizenship. It's like a lottery win to have both.
Hi @douchebag While i do not have direct experience with this topic, i recently listened to an April 2023 episode of Tim Ferriss podcast where he interviews Derek Sivers (of CD Baby fame and other...
Hi @douchebag While i do not have direct experience with this topic, i recently listened to an April 2023 episode of Tim Ferriss podcast where he interviews Derek Sivers (of CD Baby fame and other stuff). Derek - being quite wealthy - went through and gave up his U.S. citizenship....and not for tax reasons as one might expect. He now greatly regrets doing so, and he advises anyone against giving it up. I'm linking to the transcript of the podcast, so you can do a quick ctrl-F to find the "citizenship" topic: https://tim.blog/2023/04/23/derek-sivers-transcript/
Agreed! In fact, i found lots of the interview interesting. Maybe because i knew about Derek sivers from CD Baby, but of coruse didn't know a bunch of oither stuff. So, i found it interesting indeed.
Agreed! In fact, i found lots of the interview interesting. Maybe because i knew about Derek sivers from CD Baby, but of coruse didn't know a bunch of oither stuff. So, i found it interesting indeed.
I have dual citizenship, and am entitled to a third, so I have thought about this somewhat. As you want to gift your children the option of a US Citizenship, I think you will always want to retain...
I have dual citizenship, and am entitled to a third, so I have thought about this somewhat.
As you want to gift your children the option of a US Citizenship, I think you will always want to retain your US Citizenship.
Because you do not want to be in a position where your children are in the US, they need your help, you want to fly in, but you don't have a passport.
Is that why your father retains his citizenship, in spite of the fact that he has never been to the US?
Note that the children will not be eligble for US citizenship unless you have lived in the US (which is not the case here). And with a European passport it’s basically always possible to ”fly in”...
Note that the children will not be eligble for US citizenship unless you have lived in the US (which is not the case here). And with a European passport it’s basically always possible to ”fly in” to the US. It makes the whole situation a bit more challenging.
Give it up! American here hoping to emigrate and give up their citizenship as soon as I possibly can. Also saddling your children with US citizenship sounds like a terrible burden. You’re signing...
Give it up! American here hoping to emigrate and give up their citizenship as soon as I possibly can. Also saddling your children with US citizenship sounds like a terrible burden. You’re signing them up to file / pay taxes to the US government for a hypothetical benefit.
People love to keep things around because they think they might need it someday, but is it really worth all the extra mental space it occupies and time it costs to maintain?
As an American who did emigrate, I think you're way overthinking the time and cost of maintaining that citizenship. Passports only get renewed every ten years and can be done at an Embassy, taxes...
As an American who did emigrate, I think you're way overthinking the time and cost of maintaining that citizenship. Passports only get renewed every ten years and can be done at an Embassy, taxes are not very complicated to fill out for most people and there is professional help overseas available, US will not collect taxes on up to $120,000 which is way more than most people overseas earn, double taxation treaties further protect earnings from the US.
Giving up a citizenship is a big deal, we're not talking about keeping that nice cardboard box around because you might use it some day. These are work and life opportunities and a huge insurance policy if anyone needs to live in the US for any reason. I could see myself adding a citizenship but things would have to be a lot more extreme in the US for me to even begin to consider ever giving it up
i find this to be a very strange take. They could always renounce the citizenship? But having an additional citizenship that would allow them opportunities to easily travel, live, or work in that...
Also saddling your children with US citizenship sounds like a terrible burden
i find this to be a very strange take. They could always renounce the citizenship? But having an additional citizenship that would allow them opportunities to easily travel, live, or work in that country is a tremendous gift. All my thoughts on the US set aside. This would be the case for any country.
Maintaining the citizenship is a bit of paperwork. Acquiring the citizenship again could be a years long process, not even guaranteed, that is incredibly expensive.
Why do you want to give up your citizenship? Which country do you plan to move to? I would caution you against doing this for political reasons or disdain against the US, and to set emotions aside and think from a purely pragmatic standpoint. If you do this, please ensure you do not do so until you have secured citizenship in another country; you could become stateless otherwise.
One day you might really regret giving up your citizenship. You will always be 2nd category citizen in any other country no matter what you think on that.
One day you might really regret giving up your citizenship. You will always be 2nd category citizen in any other country no matter what you think on that.
I’ve lived 2/3rds of my life overseas, in six different countries. I’m fluent in 2 languages, conversational in 4. I feel more like a 2nd class citizen in America than in Africa. I’ll be okay.
I’ve lived 2/3rds of my life overseas, in six different countries. I’m fluent in 2 languages, conversational in 4. I feel more like a 2nd class citizen in America than in Africa. I’ll be okay.
Taxes are like maybe 10 hours every year, it sucks and could be massively streamlined, but it's not really asking that much, and really could just pay someone to do them for you, it's not...
Taxes are like maybe 10 hours every year, it sucks and could be massively streamlined, but it's not really asking that much, and really could just pay someone to do them for you, it's not massively expensive. I used to use Turbotax but their prices jumped to 200% so I moved on to something called FreeTaxUSA which is not as convenient as TT but is completely free for federal and state and covers everything that TT does.
The benefits are far from hypothetical too, you're just blind to them as a US citizen already, being able to enter the US at any time without any limits on how long you can stay or what rights you have is definitely big.
With the shit being stirred in Europe right now, giving up a free pass to move to a country with at least one-of, if not the largest standing armies in the world seems downright foolish.
There's a reason people spends years in a waiting list for citizenship or even enter the US illegally.
If I had citizenship to any other country, you better bet I'd be maintaining it if reasonably possible, even if it was just to be able to easily visit a few times.
I was born in Europe and grew up all over, mostly in Africa. I’ve lived in the US for the last 10 years; though my family lives in Europe (whom I visit every year). Though I have a US passport, I...
I was born in Europe and grew up all over, mostly in Africa. I’ve lived in the US for the last 10 years; though my family lives in Europe (whom I visit every year).
Though I have a US passport, I do not identify as an American. I love the metric system, socialism, and collectivism. From my perspective, it’s such an American perspective that our passport is so valuable. People here think it’s the best, that we’re the best, so rooted in our own way of doings things that they’re blind to objectively better ways the rest of the world follows (re: Metric System).
Our democracy has been overrun by capitalism, no longer representing the people but those with the biggest paychecks. American Imperialism overthrows democratically elected governments in other countries and installs dictatorships just to protect our own capitalist interests, while pretending it’s about something noble.
What Americans don’t realize is that to much of the world, we’re the bad guys. I still remember the other kids at school after 9/11 saying finally USA got what it deserved, a taste of our own medicine. True, they were just some kids, but the perception existed that we sent our troops all over the world to meddle in other countries, and now it happened to us.
Anyway, I want to move and give up my citizenship because I have strong moral objections to our Government’s stance on the future, the environment, crime (war on drugs), military spending, surveillance, immigration, institutional racism, big corpos, and the list goes on. Even though I pay my taxes, I still wonder about the ethics of supporting such a system.
Yes, there are many worse Governments in the world, but few affect so many people as the American does. An economic crisis in Wall Street causes deaths in Africa. Likely driven by greed, for the rich to get richer, who will face no consequences.
But more importantly, there are many better Governments, ones with whom my own values are much better aligned. I want to give my money, even a much higher percentage, to one of those Governments. I want to be proud of my own citizenship. Currently I am experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance by being an American and I want it to stop.
You are conflating some things that don't appear to have anything in common, unless I am misunderstanding you (completely possible). What does the metric system, socialism, and collectivism have...
Though I have a US passport, I do not identify as an American. I love the metric system, socialism, and collectivism. From my perspective, it’s such an American perspective that our passport is so valuable. People here think it’s the best, that we’re the best, so rooted in our own way of doings things that they’re blind to objectively better ways the rest of the world follows (re: Metric System).
You are conflating some things that don't appear to have anything in common, unless I am misunderstanding you (completely possible). What does the metric system, socialism, and collectivism have to do with the usefulness of an American passport? Most metrics of passport "powerfulness" (that I have seen at least) have to do with the ability to get you into different countries; many countries have no-visa requirements for Americans, which is why it's often seen as valuable. Not saying an EU passport is any less valuable... just that when folks say an American passport is valuable, this is what they are referring to, in my experience. This is something quantifiable. I don't understand how that has anything to do with political beliefs or which system of measurement a person prefers? (I also prefer the metric system, and consider myself mostly socialist, but still think the american passport is very valuable.)
In general, I simply think having any additional citizenship in this world is valuable, because it gives you options. I wish I was lucky enough to have multiple as you do, and some others in here.. But that will likely never happen for me, maybe one reason I find some passion in this topic, because I think it's quite enviable that you folks have this (I don't know a positive version of the word envy, I apologize - I mean it in a positive way, as in, that's wonderful that you have this, I'm happy for you folks).
Indeed, the united states has done (and continues to do) terrible things. But I'm not sure how relinquishing citizenship does anything other than harm the person giving up the citizenship, by eliminating some of their options in life. The US government will not care or notice if you or anyone else gives up their citizenship. I just wonder if there's ways to relieve your cognitive dissonance in a way that doesn't force you to give up opportunities, that is all. I do understand that you don't prefer to live in america, I just tend to think in life "you never know what will happen", so like to have options, that is all. (I can understand the financial reasonings for doing so, but it didn't appear OP is subject to those.)
I mean, I'm an American who emigrated and I agree with all of this. But all giving up my citizenship does is make me no longer able to vote, giving up the absolutely tiny amount of power I have to...
I have strong moral objections to our Government’s stance on the future, the environment, crime (war on drugs), military spending, surveillance, immigration, institutional racism, big corpos, and the list goes on. Even though I pay my taxes, I still wonder about the ethics of supporting such a system.
I mean, I'm an American who emigrated and I agree with all of this. But all giving up my citizenship does is make me no longer able to vote, giving up the absolutely tiny amount of power I have to effect any change there. Voting is of limited effectiveness, of course, but since I'm below the tax threshold anyway, it'd be giving it up for nothing in return. I can't go to the streets in the US and organize from here, so it's all I can do to help hopefully change things for the better even a little bit over there.
I don't know anything about dual citizenshi, but if the concern is paying out a lot at retirement (although I'd like to know why that is, as others here seem to think that shouldn't be the case),...
I don't know anything about dual citizenshi, but if the concern is paying out a lot at retirement (although I'd like to know why that is, as others here seem to think that shouldn't be the case), why not hold onto the citizenship until you reach retirement age? And then when you approach retirement age decide if you still want to keep it or ditch it and then retire. Even if that tactic of ditching it once it becomes financially inconvenient isn't possible (idk if there are regulations in place to prevent that or what), if something costs you nothing but a few hours and some paper work once a year, but has potential to be valuable down the road, why wouldn't you keep it?
You don't make enough to suffer the foreign citizen tax burden, but I'd bet your other passport is much better than the American one. However if you just stay on top of stuff you should be fine,...
You don't make enough to suffer the foreign citizen tax burden, but I'd bet your other passport is much better than the American one. However if you just stay on top of stuff you should be fine, which you seem to do.
The best benefit would be to stay on top of current and future potential tax obligations and if/when you have kids tell them what they have, and the responsibilities that come with dual citizenship so they can manage it for themselves. I'd suggest you could maybe drop the US citizenship before any changes that could increase your American tax burden. I don't see much benefit to just having a US passport, but more options with minimal or manageable drawbacks is never a bad thing.
I know one person who did this. Basically the only reasons they went through with it were: Got permanent residency in the country they planned on staying in Had an equally good passport from dual...
I know one person who did this. Basically the only reasons they went through with it were:
Got permanent residency in the country they planned on staying in
Had an equally good passport from dual citizenship
Ended up earning enough that they did hit the limit and would have had to pay US taxes on top of local taxes.
I think if you don't at least meet those 2-3 conditions (depending on if you plan on living somewhere where your second passport doesn't give you visa free living), it's not worth giving up.
Also kids are an issue. As you stated you might want to hold off until you have gotten their citizenships sorted. Also consider the US is mildly douchey about visiting as a tourist if you have given up citizenship, which could very slightly possibly make things like attending university graduations harder to organize if your kids go to uni in the US.
Edit: Also, I feel like border agents might be kinda judgmental if you stroll in with an American accent, and some flag pops up on the computer saying "ex-citizen" 😅.
Another option you might not have considered is just to ignore everything related to responsibilities of being a US citizen until you need to go there. This is not a decent thing to do but it is...
Another option you might not have considered is just to ignore everything related to responsibilities of being a US citizen until you need to go there. This is not a decent thing to do but it is less extreme than renouncing citizenship.
There is no statute of limitations on unfiled tax returns, but in most cases, the IRS only looks back six years. You should look into the specifics for your situation. I imagine that fixing your relationship with the IRS after ignoring them for 10+ years would be difficult, but it might be easier than trying to get citizenship after renouncing it. It might even be a cheaper too. The IRS might seize your passport. You might be assessed with criminal tax evasion penalties and you might lose your right to claim refunds for prior years. But those things could also happen even if you did your very best to file tax returns and follow the laws.
Every single American expat I know does taxes in a slightly different way, if they do them at all. I'm convinced we're all doing them wrong. It's such a farce.
But those things could also happen even if you did your very best to file tax returns and follow the laws.
Every single American expat I know does taxes in a slightly different way, if they do them at all. I'm convinced we're all doing them wrong. It's such a farce.
Better to have and not need than to need and not have. It’s a once a year pain in the ass. You can always give it up but it can be difficult to get. It may be made more difficult to get back because you gave it up in the past. You can never know the future. You may need it for some unforeseen circumstances.
Yeah, I would say keep it for now. You can always renounce it if they start trying to tax you up the wazoo or pulling shady things.
I love the "but America will save you" reasoning whenever someone asks about this.
No, they won't. Embassies are mostly useless for your average citizen unless you are in some extreme, well reported situation that 99% of people will never experience.
War breaks out? Well, the embassy warned everyone to get out on their Facebook page ages ago. Good luck figuring out an escape plan now.
Dictatorship legal problems? Auto-generated email with a list of recommended local lawyers you can hire.
Free general embassy services? American Citizen Services charges for everything.
The taxes you would pay if you make enough to cross that threshold, would basically never be spent on anything that you would benefit from, as your local European home country taxes and services already cover everything (and probably better).
I don't know where you're getting this from, the US has a long and well proven history of flexing its military logistics might to rescue both US citizens and foreign allies in crisis situations around the world. 2006 Evacuation of Lebanon, more recent evacuation of US Citizens from Sudan, the infamously disorganized albeit relatively successful 2001 Kabul Airlift, COVID evacuations that started in Wuhan but eventually rescued US citizens from around the globe. I could go on but I think the point is clear
Let's also not forget well reported efforts of the US to free citizens unlawfully detained in foreign countries or rescue operations of citizens who have been kidnapped.
Fair enough. My point was that it's not like the movies where you just run to the nearest embassy with bombs exploding everywhere, and snipers shooting at you, and you as an individual get saved by Marines and privately air lifted out.
Also, I did qualify all of this by pointing out that it applies to situations that 99% of people won't experience, and when it does it is usually something that is widely covered by the media. You basically just pointed out those 1% of events that also had wide media coverage (which is ok).
You mentioned the covid evacuations in Wuhan. Similar situations happened all over Asia.... Except the process was this (I lived it personally, but didn't leave).
US Embassy Facebook:
t = 0 - Citizens should probably leave while you can (you pay)
t = 1 - You should really think about leaving (you pay)
t = 3 - We have chartered some flights, leave now (but you still need to pay for it)
t = 4 - You're on your own if you're still here
...
At which point it turned into individuals arranging chartered flights via local Facebook groups.
Your last two examples are somewhat extreme. Usually the unlawful detainment aid happens after a bunch of other expats have made noise and contacted the embassy, the embassy has form emailed then the list of local lawyers, and the problem still exists. Then the diplomats will get involved. As for kidnappings, I think that again falls into my "1%" (number pulled out of my ass) of things most people considering giving up their citizenship won't have to worry about. But again fair point... But also if you have dual citizenship with a decent country, they might try the same (or enlist the help of the US), without expecting you to pay taxes to them when you don't even live in the country or ever/rarely use any of it's services.
This makes the most sense, IMO. I’m also a dual U.S. and European citizen, and the idea of giving one up is crazy to me. Yeah, there are some minor hassles, but those are not easy citizenships to acquire. Being born into both is an incredible stroke of luck, and the flexibility it offers is fantastic. There literally isn’t a better passport than those two, and having both let’s you go just about anywhere in the Western world.
Can you please elaborate on why your father is paying taxes now in retirement? I could only imagine that scenario if he is withdrawing US-based investments, which then he rightfully needs to pay the taxes, or your country somehow does not have a double taxation treaty with the US - but maybe I'm entirely wrong.
To the first bullet in your list, I find that pretty disengenious on your part. Holding a US passport does entitle you to many services, including rescue abroad, regardless of if you decide to use them or not. Just because your home country also offers these services does not mean that the US does not offer you anthing. I don't want to pass judgement on your comments but they do come off as a little ungrateful. Even locked away, that passport affords you options and opportunities that billions of other people would love to have - you even recognize that you'd like to pass those options on to your children one day.
I left the US a decade ago which made me accutely aware of what it means to hold citizenship to a place where you don't live. I love my host nation and have no real plans to move back to the US but the least I can do is respect the citizenship that I hold even if my connections to my homeland become more tenuous by the day and I there's a lot that I don't agree with over there.
Edit: One thing I meant to point out, we never know what the future holds. People have asked me if I'd ever give up my US passport and I said no. Aside from my own version of patriotism and loyalty it's an insurance policy if I ever have to go back. How much do you value the insurance of knowing that you can go to the US if things ever go down hill where you live now?
I shudder to think what would have become of all the Indians in Uganda when Idi Amin expelled them if the Republic of India and other Commonwealth nations weren't willing to take them in.
As an American that has lived abroad, yeah, the taxes are a pain and frustrating. The passport is useful, though admittedly, a European passport is equally, if not more so. Since your income is below the taxation threshold for now, I'd punt the decision. Filing the paperwork is a pain, but not really onerous. If dealing with the taxes does become onerous, it is at that point that I would make the decision.
I do agree you aren't really using any services from the US, though you also aren't paying for them either, so that evens out. If you ever find yourself in a bad situation while abroad, you have two embassies that can help you, rather than one, which is nice. Like you noted, if you have kids, they would get citizenship too which could be very useful for them if they choose to study or work in the US.
In summary, I think as it currently stands, the pros of citizenship currently out weight the cons of filing some paperwork for taxes, but that balance might change in the future.
I also want to note that history is fickle. Our relatively peaceful modern era gives the impression that history is over and all that's left to do is work, enjoy life, and save for retirement, but it's not over: this is only really the beginning of the rest of human history.
Things are going to change a lot within the next 50 years. Having dual citizenship means hedging your future with the two most successful human projects.
Within the next 50 years, the American project may collapse; but the European project is also fragile, perhaps even more so because of economic and demographic pressures that are now driving far-right movements across European nations.
I'm glad I could offer a novel perspective.
I'm an idealist and a romantic and I hope that humanity can cooperate to solve its problem peacefully and that rest of our lifetimes will be filled with peaceful rational international cooperation.
But the realist in me knows that there will be violent irrational international discord and plenty of it.
Indeed. I'm a pessimist on climate change. I think our institutions and economic incentives drive us toward inevitable climate catastrophe. But the realist in me knows that when push comes to shove over resources and land, powerful nations or supranational actors like the US and the EU will probably prevail through sheer military, financial, and scientific might.
Americans and Europeans will be shielded from the worst effects of climate change because their governments can afford to rebuild after disasters, build seawalls, and so on. But Europe will be under heavy pressure from the influx of the climate refugees from Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. The United States is relatively insulated from the impending climate refugee crisis.
Not debating this one way or the other but I've been banging on for ages that what any country should be strongly striving for is energy independence.
May as well keep it as long as the tax burden is low. There are options that allow you to vote in federal elections if you so choose and the passport can be useful if you're ever visiting the US or one of its territories. The passport might also someday be useful if things change and a country you're visiting ends up souring on Europe but sticks with the US or something like that.
I would not give it up unless the financial burden began to impact other financial goals of yours. A citizenship is a very valuable thing, and despite associated burdens and headaches, USA is a very valuable citizenship. While you may not need it now, it is hard to predict whether living or working in the US will be beneficial to you down the road. Having dual citizenship can even make you attractive to employers, should the opportunity arise that a company you're working at is seeking to grow in the US. It seems much too valuable to me to give up because filing taxes are a burden. One metric might be whether having it is costing you more than it would cost to hypothetically go through the immigration process to obtain one (just a thought experiment to put a value on it).
One thing I don't quite follow is this:
Why is he being taxed? Is he a US citizen, or is it somehow because you are? How exactly would giving up your citizenship affect this?
Indeed. Despite its many problems and flaws, the US is still the undisputed hyperpower of the world in not just military power but finance, science, technology, agriculture, sport, arts and culture, and every imaginable facet of human economic life. An American citizenship is very valuable indeed.
I considered naturalizing in the Netherlands when I was coming up on my 5 year mark there but decided against it because doing so would require forfeiting my American citizenship. Despite how wonderfully livable the Netherlands and the rest of Europe are, the fact is that the European economy is languishing while the American economy is surging ahead in every sector.
Maybe someday I'd like to create my own company — but that would certainly bring me back into the US orbit.
I'd recommend just paying someone to do your US taxes for you.
You probably know this, but just in case you don’t: to pass US citizenship on, you (or your partner) must be a US citizen who has lived in the United States. The amount of time you have to have lived there depends on your circumstances, but if you never lived there and neither did your partner, your kids will not be US citizens at birth (unless they’re born in the US).
Interesting. I didn't know this. Yes, this appears to be the case:
See section "Child born abroad in wedlock to Two U.S. Citizen parents"
Thanks! I was looking all over for this page last night and could not find it.
Really glad you shared this info as well. I was unaware. I will be sharing this with some others who it will be relevant to. Thank you.
Maybe it’s better to remain ignorant on this point but…
The real pain with being a US citizen living outside the US is not that you have to file taxes. It’s the rules about PFICs. It makes it nearly impossible to responsibly plan for retirement.
I own a European business and it makes taxes the worst.
Is it just because those investments are heavily taxed?
That and:
To clarify, these are not special or unusual benefits. Basically any investment you make through a local brokerage will have these characteristics. Want to buy an index fund? Sorry, it’s a PFIC. The other option is to move your money to the US and invest there. But then not only are you exposed to currency risk, but your life savings is now sitting in an account that almost certainly has “must reside in the United States” in its TOS.
Nevermind that now the laws of a foreign country (the US) apply, and as a EU citizen those can be weird and/or hostile. And it's much harder to get in touch with customer service of a US bank from Europe.
Also, most brokerages will explicitly ask for US citizenship when you apply, and outright reject you. Apparently for them the bureaucratic hassle isn't worth it either.
It's only the US that's overreaching like this. Everyone else just gets along.
yeah when my partner and I talked to a financial advisor we were told outright that I couldn't invest in most of the options bc I'm a US-citizen. Luckily, at least according to them, my non-US-citizen partner could do that investing instead apparently.
Yes, as far as I understood the election options, before deciding it's not something I want to be involved in, one of the better options is to tax all unrealized profits as if they were realized each year.
Currently all my money is sitting in savings accounts...
If you travel to the us, you may face increased scrutiny on account of having given up the citizenship. That's one of the reasons I haven't given up mine, suck though it does.
If you have a Western European passport - you probably don't even need a visa to enter the US, but just need to file an ESTA. Costs something trivial like $20 and lasts two years.
The only downside I see with having a dual citizenship is if you earn more than 150K a year, cause the US will tax you even if you don’t live here. Otherwise the benefits of dual citizenship outweighs the downsides.
I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't should you give up your US passport, the question is why should you keep it? Is it doing anything useful for you? It doesn't sound like it.
People have suggested it might be good insurance if things go badly but if things have gone so badly in the EU that moving to the US is an improvement then you'll probably qualify as a refugee and can move to Canada or Australia or something anyway. If you do suddenly want to move to the US for work it's not that hard to get a visa when coming from the EU. I have several friends who have done that and it was a bit of paperwork but far from impossible.
I think this is kind of under-selling things. My wife is currently trying to get a spousal green card (she is currently a EU citizen), and despite this being one of the few basically "guaranteed" ways to get US residency on a timeline, it has been far from smooth and has upended a lot of our plans for the present and near future. Getting employment-based visas is typically harder, and it is heavily reliant on your employer wanting to sponsor it, which will basically only happen if they cannot find someone already with US work authorization to fill the role. Once you get it, many work visas are conditional on you staying with the company that is on the visa application, and if you want to switch jobs you might have to go through the process again. It can significantly reduce your freedom as a worker and makes it easier for companies to exploit you. This is speaking from experience of having to navigate this with my wife recently, so maybe things have changed since your friends went through the process. In any case, I would definitely not describe it as "a bit of paperwork".
I think as long as the tax burden is minimal, which it currently sounds like, it doesn't make sense to give up something which is on paper very valuable.
Fair enough, it's been a few years since I last knew someone go through the process. The last would have done under Obama and there's been plenty of opportunity to make migration harder since then.
It's only valuable if you value the idea of living in the US. Just speaking personally - while I have a lot of American friends and they are very lovely people, I would never want to live there.
This also has to do with your birth country (not your current country of citizenship fwiw). Like gpl mentioned, you are for the most part tied to the company for possibly a long time (depending on your birth country and the size of the queue). Switching companies if you wish can be very difficult (companies don't necessarily want the headache of dealing with the additional paperwork for sponsoring you, so will favor a US citizen). The employer is well aware and many people do get exploited, I'm sorry to say. The process is also expensive.. I'm not saying OP will ever want to work in the US, but getting citizenship via employment can be very difficult and a big headache, and wanted to reiterate that point for others looking on. this thread, who might be considering the same as OP This was the case even a few years ago, during Obama as well, it is just the US immigration process.
EDIT: You never know what the future holds. The value is in having that opportunity, for any reason in the future that you can't even predict yet. (I made this edit a bit later after re-reading this discussion; sorry if that is out of the culture of this place.)
Based on what you have written, I would keep the passport until you have all of the children you plan to, and make the decision after that time.
Knowing Europe I really doubt you earn enough to pay US taxes as a citizen living abroad. I wish I had a privilege of having both US and EU citizenship. It's like a lottery win to have both.
Hi @douchebag While i do not have direct experience with this topic, i recently listened to an April 2023 episode of Tim Ferriss podcast where he interviews Derek Sivers (of CD Baby fame and other stuff). Derek - being quite wealthy - went through and gave up his U.S. citizenship....and not for tax reasons as one might expect. He now greatly regrets doing so, and he advises anyone against giving it up. I'm linking to the transcript of the podcast, so you can do a quick ctrl-F to find the "citizenship" topic: https://tim.blog/2023/04/23/derek-sivers-transcript/
Agreed! In fact, i found lots of the interview interesting. Maybe because i knew about Derek sivers from CD Baby, but of coruse didn't know a bunch of oither stuff. So, i found it interesting indeed.
I found that interview interesting, too. Nice quote from there:
This is applicable to so many areas in life!
Yeah, that's one of the best lines/quotes from the podcast interview, and also so true!
I have dual citizenship, and am entitled to a third, so I have thought about this somewhat.
As you want to gift your children the option of a US Citizenship, I think you will always want to retain your US Citizenship.
Because you do not want to be in a position where your children are in the US, they need your help, you want to fly in, but you don't have a passport.
Is that why your father retains his citizenship, in spite of the fact that he has never been to the US?
Note that the children will not be eligble for US citizenship unless you have lived in the US (which is not the case here). And with a European passport it’s basically always possible to ”fly in” to the US. It makes the whole situation a bit more challenging.
Give it up! American here hoping to emigrate and give up their citizenship as soon as I possibly can. Also saddling your children with US citizenship sounds like a terrible burden. You’re signing them up to file / pay taxes to the US government for a hypothetical benefit.
People love to keep things around because they think they might need it someday, but is it really worth all the extra mental space it occupies and time it costs to maintain?
As an American who did emigrate, I think you're way overthinking the time and cost of maintaining that citizenship. Passports only get renewed every ten years and can be done at an Embassy, taxes are not very complicated to fill out for most people and there is professional help overseas available, US will not collect taxes on up to $120,000 which is way more than most people overseas earn, double taxation treaties further protect earnings from the US.
Giving up a citizenship is a big deal, we're not talking about keeping that nice cardboard box around because you might use it some day. These are work and life opportunities and a huge insurance policy if anyone needs to live in the US for any reason. I could see myself adding a citizenship but things would have to be a lot more extreme in the US for me to even begin to consider ever giving it up
i find this to be a very strange take. They could always renounce the citizenship? But having an additional citizenship that would allow them opportunities to easily travel, live, or work in that country is a tremendous gift. All my thoughts on the US set aside. This would be the case for any country.
Maintaining the citizenship is a bit of paperwork. Acquiring the citizenship again could be a years long process, not even guaranteed, that is incredibly expensive.
Why do you want to give up your citizenship? Which country do you plan to move to? I would caution you against doing this for political reasons or disdain against the US, and to set emotions aside and think from a purely pragmatic standpoint. If you do this, please ensure you do not do so until you have secured citizenship in another country; you could become stateless otherwise.
One day you might really regret giving up your citizenship. You will always be 2nd category citizen in any other country no matter what you think on that.
I’ve lived 2/3rds of my life overseas, in six different countries. I’m fluent in 2 languages, conversational in 4. I feel more like a 2nd class citizen in America than in Africa. I’ll be okay.
Taxes are like maybe 10 hours every year, it sucks and could be massively streamlined, but it's not really asking that much, and really could just pay someone to do them for you, it's not massively expensive. I used to use Turbotax but their prices jumped to 200% so I moved on to something called FreeTaxUSA which is not as convenient as TT but is completely free for federal and state and covers everything that TT does.
The benefits are far from hypothetical too, you're just blind to them as a US citizen already, being able to enter the US at any time without any limits on how long you can stay or what rights you have is definitely big.
With the shit being stirred in Europe right now, giving up a free pass to move to a country with at least one-of, if not the largest standing armies in the world seems downright foolish.
There's a reason people spends years in a waiting list for citizenship or even enter the US illegally.
If I had citizenship to any other country, you better bet I'd be maintaining it if reasonably possible, even if it was just to be able to easily visit a few times.
I was born in Europe and grew up all over, mostly in Africa. I’ve lived in the US for the last 10 years; though my family lives in Europe (whom I visit every year).
Though I have a US passport, I do not identify as an American. I love the metric system, socialism, and collectivism. From my perspective, it’s such an American perspective that our passport is so valuable. People here think it’s the best, that we’re the best, so rooted in our own way of doings things that they’re blind to objectively better ways the rest of the world follows (re: Metric System).
Our democracy has been overrun by capitalism, no longer representing the people but those with the biggest paychecks. American Imperialism overthrows democratically elected governments in other countries and installs dictatorships just to protect our own capitalist interests, while pretending it’s about something noble.
What Americans don’t realize is that to much of the world, we’re the bad guys. I still remember the other kids at school after 9/11 saying finally USA got what it deserved, a taste of our own medicine. True, they were just some kids, but the perception existed that we sent our troops all over the world to meddle in other countries, and now it happened to us.
Anyway, I want to move and give up my citizenship because I have strong moral objections to our Government’s stance on the future, the environment, crime (war on drugs), military spending, surveillance, immigration, institutional racism, big corpos, and the list goes on. Even though I pay my taxes, I still wonder about the ethics of supporting such a system.
Yes, there are many worse Governments in the world, but few affect so many people as the American does. An economic crisis in Wall Street causes deaths in Africa. Likely driven by greed, for the rich to get richer, who will face no consequences.
But more importantly, there are many better Governments, ones with whom my own values are much better aligned. I want to give my money, even a much higher percentage, to one of those Governments. I want to be proud of my own citizenship. Currently I am experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance by being an American and I want it to stop.
You are conflating some things that don't appear to have anything in common, unless I am misunderstanding you (completely possible). What does the metric system, socialism, and collectivism have to do with the usefulness of an American passport? Most metrics of passport "powerfulness" (that I have seen at least) have to do with the ability to get you into different countries; many countries have no-visa requirements for Americans, which is why it's often seen as valuable. Not saying an EU passport is any less valuable... just that when folks say an American passport is valuable, this is what they are referring to, in my experience. This is something quantifiable. I don't understand how that has anything to do with political beliefs or which system of measurement a person prefers? (I also prefer the metric system, and consider myself mostly socialist, but still think the american passport is very valuable.)
In general, I simply think having any additional citizenship in this world is valuable, because it gives you options. I wish I was lucky enough to have multiple as you do, and some others in here.. But that will likely never happen for me, maybe one reason I find some passion in this topic, because I think it's quite enviable that you folks have this (I don't know a positive version of the word envy, I apologize - I mean it in a positive way, as in, that's wonderful that you have this, I'm happy for you folks).
Indeed, the united states has done (and continues to do) terrible things. But I'm not sure how relinquishing citizenship does anything other than harm the person giving up the citizenship, by eliminating some of their options in life. The US government will not care or notice if you or anyone else gives up their citizenship. I just wonder if there's ways to relieve your cognitive dissonance in a way that doesn't force you to give up opportunities, that is all. I do understand that you don't prefer to live in america, I just tend to think in life "you never know what will happen", so like to have options, that is all. (I can understand the financial reasonings for doing so, but it didn't appear OP is subject to those.)
I mean, I'm an American who emigrated and I agree with all of this. But all giving up my citizenship does is make me no longer able to vote, giving up the absolutely tiny amount of power I have to effect any change there. Voting is of limited effectiveness, of course, but since I'm below the tax threshold anyway, it'd be giving it up for nothing in return. I can't go to the streets in the US and organize from here, so it's all I can do to help hopefully change things for the better even a little bit over there.
I don't know anything about dual citizenshi, but if the concern is paying out a lot at retirement (although I'd like to know why that is, as others here seem to think that shouldn't be the case), why not hold onto the citizenship until you reach retirement age? And then when you approach retirement age decide if you still want to keep it or ditch it and then retire. Even if that tactic of ditching it once it becomes financially inconvenient isn't possible (idk if there are regulations in place to prevent that or what), if something costs you nothing but a few hours and some paper work once a year, but has potential to be valuable down the road, why wouldn't you keep it?
You don't make enough to suffer the foreign citizen tax burden, but I'd bet your other passport is much better than the American one. However if you just stay on top of stuff you should be fine, which you seem to do.
The best benefit would be to stay on top of current and future potential tax obligations and if/when you have kids tell them what they have, and the responsibilities that come with dual citizenship so they can manage it for themselves. I'd suggest you could maybe drop the US citizenship before any changes that could increase your American tax burden. I don't see much benefit to just having a US passport, but more options with minimal or manageable drawbacks is never a bad thing.
I know one person who did this. Basically the only reasons they went through with it were:
I think if you don't at least meet those 2-3 conditions (depending on if you plan on living somewhere where your second passport doesn't give you visa free living), it's not worth giving up.
Also kids are an issue. As you stated you might want to hold off until you have gotten their citizenships sorted. Also consider the US is mildly douchey about visiting as a tourist if you have given up citizenship, which could very slightly possibly make things like attending university graduations harder to organize if your kids go to uni in the US.
Edit: Also, I feel like border agents might be kinda judgmental if you stroll in with an American accent, and some flag pops up on the computer saying "ex-citizen" 😅.
Another option you might not have considered is just to ignore everything related to responsibilities of being a US citizen until you need to go there. This is not a decent thing to do but it is less extreme than renouncing citizenship.
There is no statute of limitations on unfiled tax returns, but in most cases, the IRS only looks back six years. You should look into the specifics for your situation. I imagine that fixing your relationship with the IRS after ignoring them for 10+ years would be difficult, but it might be easier than trying to get citizenship after renouncing it. It might even be a cheaper too. The IRS might seize your passport. You might be assessed with criminal tax evasion penalties and you might lose your right to claim refunds for prior years. But those things could also happen even if you did your very best to file tax returns and follow the laws.
Every single American expat I know does taxes in a slightly different way, if they do them at all. I'm convinced we're all doing them wrong. It's such a farce.
You should also look into the estate tax (i.e. inheritance tax).
Edit: here's the wiki link. Not an expert so not vouching for the accuracy.