Slightly offtopic but I feel the lack of actual third places make social media more attractive to use. It would be nice to have no need for social media in the first place and just interact with...
Slightly offtopic but I feel the lack of actual third places make social media more attractive to use. It would be nice to have no need for social media in the first place and just interact with people in real life.
It's a bit of a cyclical problem. Many of the third places that exist have shrinking attendance partially due to social media. Consider gay bars: huge numbers have closed over recent decades even...
It's a bit of a cyclical problem. Many of the third places that exist have shrinking attendance partially due to social media. Consider gay bars: huge numbers have closed over recent decades even as more people than ever are openly queer.
This is a big issue. I've been on my neighborhood board for 4+ years now and attendance has been consistently abysmal. When I was President for a couple years I made pushes to get people to attend...
This is a big issue. I've been on my neighborhood board for 4+ years now and attendance has been consistently abysmal. When I was President for a couple years I made pushes to get people to attend and yeah, we'd see the occasional boost in attendence, but our meeting this month was just five people, all board members.
Talking about neighborhood stuff is boring, I get it. I tire of talking about the same old issues with the old people too, but we also chat and hang out as people before and after meetings, not to mention events we put on (also poor attendance). Even repeatedly asking younger neighbors to come results in nothing.
Everyone is off in their own little world with "better" things to do.
No idea where most people end up spending most their time, but it seems probably busy with their kids or just generally burnt out from the week and don't feel like committing more time to other...
No idea where most people end up spending most their time, but it seems probably busy with their kids or just generally burnt out from the week and don't feel like committing more time to other stuff. I know I usually dread the monthly meetings and don't want to go, but it's something that must be done and is good for our community, so I keep at it.
You gotta make it a pot luck or chili cook off or something. "Neighborhood meeting and ice cream social" sounds a lot better than "Listen to Mildred whine about someone's grass"
You gotta make it a pot luck or chili cook off or something. "Neighborhood meeting and ice cream social" sounds a lot better than "Listen to Mildred whine about someone's grass"
We've tried. Numerous community get togethers have piss poor attendance, though slightly better than meetings. Last one was a cider stand in October and we got a grand total of about 6 people.
We've tried. Numerous community get togethers have piss poor attendance, though slightly better than meetings.
Last one was a cider stand in October and we got a grand total of about 6 people.
I'd add a factor of cities with high migration rates (both interstate and overseas) that tilts the local housing market to a higher ratio of renters to owners. That's a lot of highly mobile people...
I'd add a factor of cities with high migration rates (both interstate and overseas) that tilts the local housing market to a higher ratio of renters to owners. That's a lot of highly mobile people and families never really putting down roots in a particular community. My neighbors change every few months and the sound of moving trucks are a constant in the area.
I personally join events and still try to go but there's that feeling in the back of my head that I'm not quite committed to this community, because one more rent hike and I'll likely have to move somewhere else and start my connections from zero again, even worse if it's interstate.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but having recently moved to a new city I have found some good third places. But I'm young and don't know what the status quo was decades ago.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but having recently moved to a new city I have found some good third places. But I'm young and don't know what the status quo was decades ago.
This matches my experience. Even in suburbia, it wasn't too difficult to find hobby stores with interesting things. I only go infrequently for various reasons.
This matches my experience. Even in suburbia, it wasn't too difficult to find hobby stores with interesting things. I only go infrequently for various reasons.
I started running last year and I recently got a membership at a rock climbing gym and I would say I've never had this much of a social life since I was a kid and would go to my best friend's...
I started running last year and I recently got a membership at a rock climbing gym and I would say I've never had this much of a social life since I was a kid and would go to my best friend's house every day.
Third places aren't exclusive with social media, but I agree that the online world ought to be secondary to the real one. There is something innate about physical social interaction that elevates...
Third places aren't exclusive with social media, but I agree that the online world ought to be secondary to the real one. There is something innate about physical social interaction that elevates the human spirit. I like to keep up with my network on social media, and at the same time I feel that real-world contact is a preferable default.
People often speak about third places in the context of architecture and transportation; that if only our country weren't so car-dependent (or whatever), they would be everywhere and society would be that much better. This is at least partially true: it's easier to build community in places built to a human scale, especially if there are many people about. But no third place exists passively. I think our society has gotten used to an entertainment mindset where the image of connection/community is displayed for us, as imitation in television and social media, rather than by us in real life. Mainstream entertainment always has a degree of the parasocial. The parasocial is a kind of hyperreal inversion of culture that detracts from togetherness. In my view, many people have forgotten what it means to cultivate community because they have not considered that it must be actively and endlessly fostered, like plants in a garden. The literal action of working to create community is part of what makes a third place; it isn't just bestowed. I think that also means identifying third places that already exist, because they are there, sometimes they are just dormant or not appreciated.
I continue to have many joys experiencing community through my Friends meeting. In addition to centering me emotionally, it's the best way I've found to establish meaningful relationships (friends, acquaintances) in the neighborhood/city. I truly did not realize it was possible to this extent. My meeting has been proactively reimagining its culture, offering space for comfort and connection while retaining its traditions. It has been interesting to watch over the last few years. Worships, retreats, potlucks, family events, and generous mutual aid all bring people together. I love to listen in meeting, hearing the silence and the togetherness. Even in meeting for business, you wouldn't think listening to a financial audit would be joyful... but it is so much more engaging to hear that communal funds are being prudently managed and spent to heal meeting members in the hospital, to help others navigate Medicare, to house Friends in need, to offer meals to low-income neighbors, and to support education.
I have been amazed to find previously invisible "third places" appear as a result of this community where I didn't expect. For instance, the used bookstore up the street was just some store until it was the workplace of a Friend (and home of a cat!), so now it is a regular stop on walks through town. These third places seem to reinforce themselves and each other. At potluck on Sunday, I met an alumna not only of my college but also its newspaper. I begin to see Friends at the gym, on the street, at a dance... who would have thought? Just this afternoon I visited a fellow Quaker for coffee across town, where we serendipitously stumbled into a mutual friend (who had been traveling far away for months!). What a delightful encounter! It makes me feel so connected to my town. But in some sense that connection transcends the built environment and now third places seem physically possible in unexpected backdrops. I still have to make an effort to be sociable, but having a medium to get started, like a place of worship, has been helpful.
People heavily engaged with technology are sometimes derisive toward faith for philosophical reasons. I hear that perspective. Some religious institutions are alienating. However, I have learned a lot in my community, perhaps because it goes out of its way to be thoughtful rather than automatically prescriptive or judgmental. One of the things I have begun to understand is how much judgment I have been taught to lay upon the world around me. Letting go of that compulsion is a work in progress. It is good to start to see it for what it is though.
I spend a lot of time working in my broader community to establish and rebuild third places. I have never found it to materialize by itself, but I have found it to appear fairly easily if I pull and prod with enough diligence. I act on ideas and opportunities I see to build groups; identifying latent collective desire for human connection instead of social media and mindless screen entertainment. I spent months creating and guiding a traditional Scottish dance class in my city until it became mostly self-perpetuating. It took me about two years to create a foundation to support traditional music and culture in my city, but that is an ongoing fundraising project that has so much potential to do more good. And I try to participate in civic life to support safer and more human streets at a local level. None of it just "happens." It is pretty tiring sometimes and requires sacrifices. And yet seeing the fruits of one's labor is so rewarding.
Social media can be a part of creating those third places. It would have been pretty hard to do some of what I have done without it. There is still a clear hierarchy though. The takeaway I've had is that the center of a successful project remains firmly in the real world. This probably applies to all advocacy: if a community-building campaign is more centered upon its online presence than its real one, it is likely to decline. Something like Tildes is a valuable third-ish "place," however I find that it serves a different purpose and falls into a different category.
I'm not religious, but I'll agree that religious groups can be extremely beneficial for building community. There aren't many secular alternatives in America. I guess some nonprofits?
I'm not religious, but I'll agree that religious groups can be extremely beneficial for building community. There aren't many secular alternatives in America. I guess some nonprofits?
I think a big part of the problem is unless you’re living in a dense city or place like a college campus the internet just has more of the people you want to talk to. And if we’re talking about...
I think a big part of the problem is unless you’re living in a dense city or place like a college campus the internet just has more of the people you want to talk to.
And if we’re talking about the US, the sky high real estate prices in the few dense cities make many potential third places impossible financially.
In theory, this should mean huge multistory mixed use buildings with viable third places get built. Unfortunately, most major cities in America make it illegal to do common sense things like...
And if we’re talking about the US, the sky high real estate prices in the few dense cities make many potential third places impossible financially.
In theory, this should mean huge multistory mixed use buildings with viable third places get built. Unfortunately, most major cities in America make it illegal to do common sense things like having publicly-accessible commercial spaces available anywhere besides the first floor. High land prices should encourage building bigger buildings, but it's extremely difficult to build things in the Anglosphere.
How practical would a "phone parlor" type place be? Set up tables and chairs in a public third space. Instead of doomscrolling at home, you can take a seat at the phone parlor and doomscroll...
How practical would a "phone parlor" type place be? Set up tables and chairs in a public third space. Instead of doomscrolling at home, you can take a seat at the phone parlor and doomscroll there. But everyone there is implicitly saying that others are welcome to interrupt and have some kind of social interaction. Hire one guy to hang out all day and kick out vandals, creeps, and the like.
I think there are some advantages to social media regardless (though I'm a bit biased, as I met my wife that way before we lived in the same hemisphere, through a hobby that is rare enough that...
I think there are some advantages to social media regardless (though I'm a bit biased, as I met my wife that way before we lived in the same hemisphere, through a hobby that is rare enough that there would never be socialization with other hobbyists without the internet), but I definitely think a lack of third places makes social media something more people feel the need to rely on in unhealthy ways. I don't think more third places would solve that issue but it would certainly improve things for many people.
I agree with you, but we should keep in mind there is an addictive element to social media that would make at least some fraction use it, even if a third space was just down the street from them....
I agree with you, but we should keep in mind there is an addictive element to social media that would make at least some fraction use it, even if a third space was just down the street from them. Even the fact of it being immediate and accessible from anywhere makes it the impulsive choice a lot of the time.
Very well written piece imo. I don't think masses really care about federation and ad. Even if bsky down the path introduces ad, people will throw some tantrum but they won't leave as long as...
Very well written piece imo.
I don't think masses really care about federation and ad. Even if bsky down the path introduces ad, people will throw some tantrum but they won't leave as long as sanity of the place is maintained. X became too much for normal people to bear.
bsky developers and management have a lot to prove. It will be interesting to see how they maintain and manage their finance.
I actually disagree with this a lot. they don't care about the implementation details and they don't want to end up in a scenario like activitypub where the user experience is inconsistent and...
I don't think masses really care about federation
I actually disagree with this a lot. they don't care about the implementation details and they don't want to end up in a scenario like activitypub where the user experience is inconsistent and confusing, but the average user does want to be able to post without having to worry about moderation nonsense + website owners deciding to make the experience bad for no reason. They might not explicitly say the word "federation" but that doesn't mean these features aren't important.
Time will tell how well bluesky's federation works.
I agree with your points then I also consider threads. On paper it is also federated, but no one is signing up for threads for that reason. In november only they added around 15M new users. I...
I agree with your points then I also consider threads. On paper it is also federated, but no one is signing up for threads for that reason. In november only they added around 15M new users.
I think normal people are more motivated by interaction and impression then how the tech is implemented.
edit: and the consistent experience, that you mentioned, Mostodon really failed at this.
threads isn't failing because of federation, it's because their approach to moderation is utterly deranged. you can always tell the former threads users when they show up on bluesky because the...
threads isn't failing because of federation, it's because their approach to moderation is utterly deranged. you can always tell the former threads users when they show up on bluesky because the poor fuckers will censor 'sh*t'.
Federation itself is definitely not enough. I agree with that. but I also don't think that threads is a great example because I think the reason threads is failing is because the people running it fundamentally don't understand what makes social media fun is the SOCIAL aspect of it. And threads is so actively hostile to expression that its less human as a result. It feels like everyone on threads has had all their flaws and imperfections and any kind of personality sandblasted off.
Yes, I think the place where federation shows up most prominently for users is that they care about moderation, and that's where the policy conflicts happen. A centralized service with decent...
Yes, I think the place where federation shows up most prominently for users is that they care about moderation, and that's where the policy conflicts happen.
A centralized service with decent moderation can work at small scale (like Tildes). In the Fediverse, policy disputes show up as admins blocking each other if they can't work it out.
For email, it can show up as getting put on the wrong spammer blocklist for silly reasons, and I think that's where BlueSky is headed with its labeler services?
Edit: If it worked like email, though, there should be a way to make sure your friends' posts get through by checking the spam folder now and then.
I'm not convinced that federated platforms actually solve that in practice. You still have website owners making the experience bad for no reason until you need to move somewhere else, and with...
I'm not convinced that federated platforms actually solve that in practice. You still have website owners making the experience bad for no reason until you need to move somewhere else, and with smaller fiefdoms it happens much faster.
The broad message comes across as "federation is good because you can easily leave the site", but the average user is looking for a site they won't have to leave in the first place. And when all you want from a platform is to be where everyone else is, you inevitably get certain instances acting as the centralised platform by default, because the alternative is a poorer experience.
People have confused federation for "how activitypub works" imo. Atproto is specifically designed to be resistant to this. You can easily port your data to a new PDS without losing followers or...
People have confused federation for "how activitypub works" imo. Atproto is specifically designed to be resistant to this. You can easily port your data to a new PDS without losing followers or following. There's already working third party app views. I agree that we need to see third party relays working before we can call the decentralization a total success, but part of what makes bluesky interesting is that these concerns people commonly have were included in the design of the protocol. Time will tell if it's a success.
That's still just saying "it's good because it's easy to leave", though. It's like when a friend moved to a new town for their first job post-university and the best thing they had to say about it...
That's still just saying "it's good because it's easy to leave", though.
It's like when a friend moved to a new town for their first job post-university and the best thing they had to say about it was "it's really easy to get out of [the town]".
No, it's more akin to the inverse - your friend saying not only is his town fun as hell to be in, it's also easy to visit and move to. The way they've set up ATProto is designed to maximize user...
No, it's more akin to the inverse - your friend saying not only is his town fun as hell to be in, it's also easy to visit and move to. The way they've set up ATProto is designed to maximize user choice while not having to worry about stupid moderation drama, or at least, being able to totally ignore it if you want.
No one talks about federated platforms as being fun to be on or easy to move to, though, it's always in terms of leaving. Your own comment is even "without losing followers" rather than, say,...
No one talks about federated platforms as being fun to be on or easy to move to, though, it's always in terms of leaving. Your own comment is even "without losing followers" rather than, say, "bringing followers with you".
But as I said, when someone doesn't want to move, telling them how great moving is misses the point.
you are fundamentally misunderstanding how ATProto works. this criticism makes as much sense as complaining about BGP making it easier to "leave" the local area network. It's nonsensical. This is...
you are fundamentally misunderstanding how ATProto works. this criticism makes as much sense as complaining about BGP making it easier to "leave" the local area network. It's nonsensical. This is not a valid criticism of ATProto because the entire point of the network is that it shouldn't matter who runs the relays
you are not "leaving" in any sense that matters. you can make your posts on any PDS via any app view and have them viewed by your followers on any app view and vice versa. How does 'leaving' as an analogy even work here? Again, a criticism that makes sense is pointing out that there aren't enough incentives to run a relay + that third party relays are untested. But the whole point of ATProto is that the concept of having to 'leave' is irrelevant
I'm just responding to your comment stating Your average user isn't going to be setting up their own server, so if moving between PDSs is nothing like making a new account on a new site/instance...
I'm just responding to your comment stating
You can easily port your data to a new PDS
Your average user isn't going to be setting up their own server, so if moving between PDSs is nothing like making a new account on a new site/instance and having to import settings etc., that is the point to be making. Not framing it as yet more "sign up to this because it's so easy when you then need to sign up somewhere else".
PDSes are more akin to git repositories than activitypub instances. They're supposed to be dumb holders of your data. This is why the criticism doesn't make sense to me, because in an ideal future...
PDSes are more akin to git repositories than activitypub instances. They're supposed to be dumb holders of your data. This is why the criticism doesn't make sense to me, because in an ideal future where ATProto has a strong community, you will be able to pay a few bucks a month for PDS hosting the same way you do for email.
There's no concept of 'signing up' to a PDS. If anything this is the real criticism of ATProto, that the identity system is pretty centralized right now.
Well I'd argue "don't have to leave" has been pretty convincingly shown to be of a near mythical quality in just a few short decades. Platforms are controlled by humans and across a long enough...
Well I'd argue "don't have to leave" has been pretty convincingly shown to be of a near mythical quality in just a few short decades.
Platforms are controlled by humans and across a long enough timescale it's inevitable the digital empires will rise and fall like their real life counterparts. Protocols are not immune to this either but decentralized ones ought to have a great deal of staying power.
Maybe. Threads had some potential and provided some great self-moderation tools, but Meta botched their moderation so badly (read: cheaped out by using AI instead of people) that they lost early...
Maybe. Threads had some potential and provided some great self-moderation tools, but Meta botched their moderation so badly (read: cheaped out by using AI instead of people) that they lost early adopters. Some of those moved to Bluesky, while others were tired of moving to the next platform. Some people preferred Bluesky because it wasn't attached to Instagram or Meta in any way.
But Bluesky, as the author notes, has control over two key components of their not-so-federated platform: the DIDs and DMs, with no known plans to relinquish that control. Ultimately, they've rebuilt early Twitter, and there are some that say Bluesky feels like the past instead of the future, in a non-complimentary way.
For myself, I've realized that social media increases my anxiety. If I'm already stressed, it makes me more stressed. I already maintained a quite small Instagram profile (private, with less than 100 following and followers, each), and it was too much for me. I think there's more of a sense of lurkers or dead connections that I find disconcerting. The few stronger connections I can maintain in other ways.
I deactivated my socials maybe two or three weeks ago. Other than my mom, no one asked about it. But in that time, I've had a few really nice video calls with friends, and a couple others that have at least popped in via text message to share an update. For real-life interpersonal connections, I like this way better. And I still work on getting out and about for some meatspace interactions.
Online, I'm still indulging in discussions here and posting on my own blog. Tildes moves at a slow enough pace that it feels manageable, and the conversations are thoughtful. My own blog moves at whatever pace I want it to and there's no expectation or worry about interactions. And if people want to reach me, they have options like email or Signal. (Signal with a username is far more private and secure than any social platform's inbox.)
Too early to say, but they do have some momentum. For people who want to self-host, I think it might be possible to build something that ignores most of BlueSky. Suppose there's a blogging tool...
Too early to say, but they do have some momentum.
For people who want to self-host, I think it might be possible to build something that ignores most of BlueSky. Suppose there's a blogging tool with a built-in PDS and an RSS feed? People could subscribe using RSS and it would work fine if BlueSky is down.
However, you won't find out when someone replies unless you get a notification from something that subscribes to a Relay, or there's an alternate notification mechanism.
Also, this doesn't scale all that well. But it scales as well as a blog with an RSS feed, and that's probably good enough for those of us who aren't celebrities.
So the result would be something like (old) Twitter with old-fashioned blogging as backup.
Anything is better than Twitter now, but I feel like as it is currently Bluesky is just... A bit of a left wing echo chamber, though it tries to claim otherwise. I hope it'll evolve as more people...
Anything is better than Twitter now, but I feel like as it is currently Bluesky is just... A bit of a left wing echo chamber, though it tries to claim otherwise. I hope it'll evolve as more people sign up but the early adopters have undoubtably been mostly politically-oriented American left wingers and the content on the site reflects that. Posts mostly fall into two categories: "Common interest" posts with very broad appeal (nature photos, relatable anecdotes, very safe jokes, etc), or American politics. I've got nothing against left wing politics to be clear, I just don't find the site particulary interesting at the moment over it.
Ultimately I just worry that it's a lot of artificial hype in this initial stage, and once it dies down people will be left with little of substance. I find that it's quite common in left wing spaces (speaking as someone who's been involved in an unfortunate amount of Reddit moderating) for enormous hype trains to form over something with everyone patting themselves on the back over how great it is and how everyone is on board while shutting out any and all dissent, only for the hype to slow, the dissenters to realise how numerous they are, and the whole thing flips on its head with the dissenters getting to be smug over how stupid the whole thing obviously was (from their perspective at least). Then your average person without a stake in the thing decides to steer clear entirely to avoid being lumped in with the weird ones whom everyone is laughing at.
I agree that the bulk of posts are quite American politics-centric, especially if you're browsing the "Discover" feed, but this can definitely be addressed by following people who talk about other...
I agree that the bulk of posts are quite American politics-centric, especially if you're browsing the "Discover" feed, but this can definitely be addressed by following people who talk about other things. I followed one New Zealander who posts about an area I'm interested in and got a refreshing look into their politics, for instance! I've been able to find a lot of good accounts to follow that post about other areas I'm interested in by finding lists and feeds on those topics and scoping out the accounts in them.
Yeah I don't find it echo chambery beyond blocking bigots and assholes, which is a) what I want and b) sometimes but not always the same people. I follow a lot of authors and queer people and dip...
Yeah I don't find it echo chambery beyond blocking bigots and assholes, which is a) what I want and b) sometimes but not always the same people.
I follow a lot of authors and queer people and dip into a bunch of different areas by feed. There's an influx of follow-farming sorts of accounts right now just spamming the same unoriginal work, and I'm just meeting them off my page regardless of whether theyre left wing politics or not. (You can tell them because they follow your small account after you heart a single post)
Slightly offtopic but I feel the lack of actual third places make social media more attractive to use. It would be nice to have no need for social media in the first place and just interact with people in real life.
It's a bit of a cyclical problem. Many of the third places that exist have shrinking attendance partially due to social media. Consider gay bars: huge numbers have closed over recent decades even as more people than ever are openly queer.
This is a big issue. I've been on my neighborhood board for 4+ years now and attendance has been consistently abysmal. When I was President for a couple years I made pushes to get people to attend and yeah, we'd see the occasional boost in attendence, but our meeting this month was just five people, all board members.
Talking about neighborhood stuff is boring, I get it. I tire of talking about the same old issues with the old people too, but we also chat and hang out as people before and after meetings, not to mention events we put on (also poor attendance). Even repeatedly asking younger neighbors to come results in nothing.
Everyone is off in their own little world with "better" things to do.
It's hard work!
How many people live in your neighborhood?
Where do neighbors find themselves instead of civic meetings and events?
No idea where most people end up spending most their time, but it seems probably busy with their kids or just generally burnt out from the week and don't feel like committing more time to other stuff. I know I usually dread the monthly meetings and don't want to go, but it's something that must be done and is good for our community, so I keep at it.
We have 420-something houses last I remember.
You gotta make it a pot luck or chili cook off or something. "Neighborhood meeting and ice cream social" sounds a lot better than "Listen to Mildred whine about someone's grass"
We've tried. Numerous community get togethers have piss poor attendance, though slightly better than meetings.
Last one was a cider stand in October and we got a grand total of about 6 people.
I'd add a factor of cities with high migration rates (both interstate and overseas) that tilts the local housing market to a higher ratio of renters to owners. That's a lot of highly mobile people and families never really putting down roots in a particular community. My neighbors change every few months and the sound of moving trucks are a constant in the area.
I personally join events and still try to go but there's that feeling in the back of my head that I'm not quite committed to this community, because one more rent hike and I'll likely have to move somewhere else and start my connections from zero again, even worse if it's interstate.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but having recently moved to a new city I have found some good third places. But I'm young and don't know what the status quo was decades ago.
This matches my experience. Even in suburbia, it wasn't too difficult to find hobby stores with interesting things. I only go infrequently for various reasons.
I started running last year and I recently got a membership at a rock climbing gym and I would say I've never had this much of a social life since I was a kid and would go to my best friend's house every day.
Third places aren't exclusive with social media, but I agree that the online world ought to be secondary to the real one. There is something innate about physical social interaction that elevates the human spirit. I like to keep up with my network on social media, and at the same time I feel that real-world contact is a preferable default.
People often speak about third places in the context of architecture and transportation; that if only our country weren't so car-dependent (or whatever), they would be everywhere and society would be that much better. This is at least partially true: it's easier to build community in places built to a human scale, especially if there are many people about. But no third place exists passively. I think our society has gotten used to an entertainment mindset where the image of connection/community is displayed for us, as imitation in television and social media, rather than by us in real life. Mainstream entertainment always has a degree of the parasocial. The parasocial is a kind of hyperreal inversion of culture that detracts from togetherness. In my view, many people have forgotten what it means to cultivate community because they have not considered that it must be actively and endlessly fostered, like plants in a garden. The literal action of working to create community is part of what makes a third place; it isn't just bestowed. I think that also means identifying third places that already exist, because they are there, sometimes they are just dormant or not appreciated.
I continue to have many joys experiencing community through my Friends meeting. In addition to centering me emotionally, it's the best way I've found to establish meaningful relationships (friends, acquaintances) in the neighborhood/city. I truly did not realize it was possible to this extent. My meeting has been proactively reimagining its culture, offering space for comfort and connection while retaining its traditions. It has been interesting to watch over the last few years. Worships, retreats, potlucks, family events, and generous mutual aid all bring people together. I love to listen in meeting, hearing the silence and the togetherness. Even in meeting for business, you wouldn't think listening to a financial audit would be joyful... but it is so much more engaging to hear that communal funds are being prudently managed and spent to heal meeting members in the hospital, to help others navigate Medicare, to house Friends in need, to offer meals to low-income neighbors, and to support education.
I have been amazed to find previously invisible "third places" appear as a result of this community where I didn't expect. For instance, the used bookstore up the street was just some store until it was the workplace of a Friend (and home of a cat!), so now it is a regular stop on walks through town. These third places seem to reinforce themselves and each other. At potluck on Sunday, I met an alumna not only of my college but also its newspaper. I begin to see Friends at the gym, on the street, at a dance... who would have thought? Just this afternoon I visited a fellow Quaker for coffee across town, where we serendipitously stumbled into a mutual friend (who had been traveling far away for months!). What a delightful encounter! It makes me feel so connected to my town. But in some sense that connection transcends the built environment and now third places seem physically possible in unexpected backdrops. I still have to make an effort to be sociable, but having a medium to get started, like a place of worship, has been helpful.
People heavily engaged with technology are sometimes derisive toward faith for philosophical reasons. I hear that perspective. Some religious institutions are alienating. However, I have learned a lot in my community, perhaps because it goes out of its way to be thoughtful rather than automatically prescriptive or judgmental. One of the things I have begun to understand is how much judgment I have been taught to lay upon the world around me. Letting go of that compulsion is a work in progress. It is good to start to see it for what it is though.
I spend a lot of time working in my broader community to establish and rebuild third places. I have never found it to materialize by itself, but I have found it to appear fairly easily if I pull and prod with enough diligence. I act on ideas and opportunities I see to build groups; identifying latent collective desire for human connection instead of social media and mindless screen entertainment. I spent months creating and guiding a traditional Scottish dance class in my city until it became mostly self-perpetuating. It took me about two years to create a foundation to support traditional music and culture in my city, but that is an ongoing fundraising project that has so much potential to do more good. And I try to participate in civic life to support safer and more human streets at a local level. None of it just "happens." It is pretty tiring sometimes and requires sacrifices. And yet seeing the fruits of one's labor is so rewarding.
Social media can be a part of creating those third places. It would have been pretty hard to do some of what I have done without it. There is still a clear hierarchy though. The takeaway I've had is that the center of a successful project remains firmly in the real world. This probably applies to all advocacy: if a community-building campaign is more centered upon its online presence than its real one, it is likely to decline. Something like Tildes is a valuable third-ish "place," however I find that it serves a different purpose and falls into a different category.
I'm not religious, but I'll agree that religious groups can be extremely beneficial for building community. There aren't many secular alternatives in America. I guess some nonprofits?
Unitarian Universalism would probably fit the bill.
I think a big part of the problem is unless you’re living in a dense city or place like a college campus the internet just has more of the people you want to talk to.
And if we’re talking about the US, the sky high real estate prices in the few dense cities make many potential third places impossible financially.
In theory, this should mean huge multistory mixed use buildings with viable third places get built. Unfortunately, most major cities in America make it illegal to do common sense things like having publicly-accessible commercial spaces available anywhere besides the first floor. High land prices should encourage building bigger buildings, but it's extremely difficult to build things in the Anglosphere.
How practical would a "phone parlor" type place be? Set up tables and chairs in a public third space. Instead of doomscrolling at home, you can take a seat at the phone parlor and doomscroll there. But everyone there is implicitly saying that others are welcome to interrupt and have some kind of social interaction. Hire one guy to hang out all day and kick out vandals, creeps, and the like.
There’s a lot of places in cities which are effectively this. I can name a lot of places in manhattan. But in practice, few new connections are made.
Internet cafes are extremely popular in Asia, but I'm not sure they solve loneliness issues.
I think there are some advantages to social media regardless (though I'm a bit biased, as I met my wife that way before we lived in the same hemisphere, through a hobby that is rare enough that there would never be socialization with other hobbyists without the internet), but I definitely think a lack of third places makes social media something more people feel the need to rely on in unhealthy ways. I don't think more third places would solve that issue but it would certainly improve things for many people.
I agree with you, but we should keep in mind there is an addictive element to social media that would make at least some fraction use it, even if a third space was just down the street from them. Even the fact of it being immediate and accessible from anywhere makes it the impulsive choice a lot of the time.
Very well written piece imo.
I don't think masses really care about federation and ad. Even if bsky down the path introduces ad, people will throw some tantrum but they won't leave as long as sanity of the place is maintained. X became too much for normal people to bear.
bsky developers and management have a lot to prove. It will be interesting to see how they maintain and manage their finance.
I actually disagree with this a lot. they don't care about the implementation details and they don't want to end up in a scenario like activitypub where the user experience is inconsistent and confusing, but the average user does want to be able to post without having to worry about moderation nonsense + website owners deciding to make the experience bad for no reason. They might not explicitly say the word "federation" but that doesn't mean these features aren't important.
Time will tell how well bluesky's federation works.
I agree with your points then I also consider threads. On paper it is also federated, but no one is signing up for threads for that reason. In november only they added around 15M new users.
I think normal people are more motivated by interaction and impression then how the tech is implemented.
edit: and the consistent experience, that you mentioned, Mostodon really failed at this.
threads isn't failing because of federation, it's because their approach to moderation is utterly deranged. you can always tell the former threads users when they show up on bluesky because the poor fuckers will censor 'sh*t'.
Federation itself is definitely not enough. I agree with that. but I also don't think that threads is a great example because I think the reason threads is failing is because the people running it fundamentally don't understand what makes social media fun is the SOCIAL aspect of it. And threads is so actively hostile to expression that its less human as a result. It feels like everyone on threads has had all their flaws and imperfections and any kind of personality sandblasted off.
Yes, I think the place where federation shows up most prominently for users is that they care about moderation, and that's where the policy conflicts happen.
A centralized service with decent moderation can work at small scale (like Tildes). In the Fediverse, policy disputes show up as admins blocking each other if they can't work it out.
For email, it can show up as getting put on the wrong spammer blocklist for silly reasons, and I think that's where BlueSky is headed with its labeler services?
Edit: If it worked like email, though, there should be a way to make sure your friends' posts get through by checking the spam folder now and then.
I'm not convinced that federated platforms actually solve that in practice. You still have website owners making the experience bad for no reason until you need to move somewhere else, and with smaller fiefdoms it happens much faster.
The broad message comes across as "federation is good because you can easily leave the site", but the average user is looking for a site they won't have to leave in the first place. And when all you want from a platform is to be where everyone else is, you inevitably get certain instances acting as the centralised platform by default, because the alternative is a poorer experience.
People have confused federation for "how activitypub works" imo. Atproto is specifically designed to be resistant to this. You can easily port your data to a new PDS without losing followers or following. There's already working third party app views. I agree that we need to see third party relays working before we can call the decentralization a total success, but part of what makes bluesky interesting is that these concerns people commonly have were included in the design of the protocol. Time will tell if it's a success.
That's still just saying "it's good because it's easy to leave", though.
It's like when a friend moved to a new town for their first job post-university and the best thing they had to say about it was "it's really easy to get out of [the town]".
No, it's more akin to the inverse - your friend saying not only is his town fun as hell to be in, it's also easy to visit and move to. The way they've set up ATProto is designed to maximize user choice while not having to worry about stupid moderation drama, or at least, being able to totally ignore it if you want.
No one talks about federated platforms as being fun to be on or easy to move to, though, it's always in terms of leaving. Your own comment is even "without losing followers" rather than, say, "bringing followers with you".
But as I said, when someone doesn't want to move, telling them how great moving is misses the point.
you are fundamentally misunderstanding how ATProto works. this criticism makes as much sense as complaining about BGP making it easier to "leave" the local area network. It's nonsensical. This is not a valid criticism of ATProto because the entire point of the network is that it shouldn't matter who runs the relays
you are not "leaving" in any sense that matters. you can make your posts on any PDS via any app view and have them viewed by your followers on any app view and vice versa. How does 'leaving' as an analogy even work here? Again, a criticism that makes sense is pointing out that there aren't enough incentives to run a relay + that third party relays are untested. But the whole point of ATProto is that the concept of having to 'leave' is irrelevant
I'm just responding to your comment stating
Your average user isn't going to be setting up their own server, so if moving between PDSs is nothing like making a new account on a new site/instance and having to import settings etc., that is the point to be making. Not framing it as yet more "sign up to this because it's so easy when you then need to sign up somewhere else".
PDSes are more akin to git repositories than activitypub instances. They're supposed to be dumb holders of your data. This is why the criticism doesn't make sense to me, because in an ideal future where ATProto has a strong community, you will be able to pay a few bucks a month for PDS hosting the same way you do for email.
There's no concept of 'signing up' to a PDS. If anything this is the real criticism of ATProto, that the identity system is pretty centralized right now.
Not a great analogy because the alternative to "easy to leave" in the digital world is "pretty much impossible to leave".
When the desired quality is "don't have to leave", the difference between the two is moot.
Well I'd argue "don't have to leave" has been pretty convincingly shown to be of a near mythical quality in just a few short decades.
Platforms are controlled by humans and across a long enough timescale it's inevitable the digital empires will rise and fall like their real life counterparts. Protocols are not immune to this either but decentralized ones ought to have a great deal of staying power.
Maybe. Threads had some potential and provided some great self-moderation tools, but Meta botched their moderation so badly (read: cheaped out by using AI instead of people) that they lost early adopters. Some of those moved to Bluesky, while others were tired of moving to the next platform. Some people preferred Bluesky because it wasn't attached to Instagram or Meta in any way.
But Bluesky, as the author notes, has control over two key components of their not-so-federated platform: the DIDs and DMs, with no known plans to relinquish that control. Ultimately, they've rebuilt early Twitter, and there are some that say Bluesky feels like the past instead of the future, in a non-complimentary way.
For myself, I've realized that social media increases my anxiety. If I'm already stressed, it makes me more stressed. I already maintained a quite small Instagram profile (private, with less than 100 following and followers, each), and it was too much for me. I think there's more of a sense of lurkers or dead connections that I find disconcerting. The few stronger connections I can maintain in other ways.
I deactivated my socials maybe two or three weeks ago. Other than my mom, no one asked about it. But in that time, I've had a few really nice video calls with friends, and a couple others that have at least popped in via text message to share an update. For real-life interpersonal connections, I like this way better. And I still work on getting out and about for some meatspace interactions.
Online, I'm still indulging in discussions here and posting on my own blog. Tildes moves at a slow enough pace that it feels manageable, and the conversations are thoughtful. My own blog moves at whatever pace I want it to and there's no expectation or worry about interactions. And if people want to reach me, they have options like email or Signal. (Signal with a username is far more private and secure than any social platform's inbox.)
Too early to say, but they do have some momentum.
For people who want to self-host, I think it might be possible to build something that ignores most of BlueSky. Suppose there's a blogging tool with a built-in PDS and an RSS feed? People could subscribe using RSS and it would work fine if BlueSky is down.
However, you won't find out when someone replies unless you get a notification from something that subscribes to a Relay, or there's an alternate notification mechanism.
Also, this doesn't scale all that well. But it scales as well as a blog with an RSS feed, and that's probably good enough for those of us who aren't celebrities.
So the result would be something like (old) Twitter with old-fashioned blogging as backup.
Anything is better than Twitter now, but I feel like as it is currently Bluesky is just... A bit of a left wing echo chamber, though it tries to claim otherwise. I hope it'll evolve as more people sign up but the early adopters have undoubtably been mostly politically-oriented American left wingers and the content on the site reflects that. Posts mostly fall into two categories: "Common interest" posts with very broad appeal (nature photos, relatable anecdotes, very safe jokes, etc), or American politics. I've got nothing against left wing politics to be clear, I just don't find the site particulary interesting at the moment over it.
Ultimately I just worry that it's a lot of artificial hype in this initial stage, and once it dies down people will be left with little of substance. I find that it's quite common in left wing spaces (speaking as someone who's been involved in an unfortunate amount of Reddit moderating) for enormous hype trains to form over something with everyone patting themselves on the back over how great it is and how everyone is on board while shutting out any and all dissent, only for the hype to slow, the dissenters to realise how numerous they are, and the whole thing flips on its head with the dissenters getting to be smug over how stupid the whole thing obviously was (from their perspective at least). Then your average person without a stake in the thing decides to steer clear entirely to avoid being lumped in with the weird ones whom everyone is laughing at.
I agree that the bulk of posts are quite American politics-centric, especially if you're browsing the "Discover" feed, but this can definitely be addressed by following people who talk about other things. I followed one New Zealander who posts about an area I'm interested in and got a refreshing look into their politics, for instance! I've been able to find a lot of good accounts to follow that post about other areas I'm interested in by finding lists and feeds on those topics and scoping out the accounts in them.
Yeah I don't find it echo chambery beyond blocking bigots and assholes, which is a) what I want and b) sometimes but not always the same people.
I follow a lot of authors and queer people and dip into a bunch of different areas by feed. There's an influx of follow-farming sorts of accounts right now just spamming the same unoriginal work, and I'm just meeting them off my page regardless of whether theyre left wing politics or not. (You can tell them because they follow your small account after you heart a single post)
r/askhistorians just moved to Blue sky.
Askhistorians starter pack