46 votes

The most forgotten rule of Tildes, and why I'm leaving

Tags: rant

I considered sending this only as a PM to Deimos, but since it actually involves the community and Deimos has no real control over it, I think it's better suited as a public post.

Users are always quick to point to the "paradox of tolerance" clause in the Tildes vision:

Tildes will not be a victim of the paradox of tolerance; my philosophy is closer to "if your website's full of assholes, it's your fault".

But I believe there's an even more important clause, right in the actual Tildes Docs:

If people treat each other in good faith and apply charitable interpretations, everyone's experience improves. (emphasis mine)

A lot of users here, including some well-known power users, are quick to call "Hate!" where there is no actual hate. Controversial statements are quickly interpreted to their most extreme. Yes, there have been some hateful incidents here and I won't deny that, but a lot of well-meaning discussions are lumped into the mix and shut down because they might lead to hate or because they are associated with hate.

Honest discussions, political or otherwise, can't be had in a climate like this. Echo chamber, hivemind, circlejerk... call it whatever, but that's where things are heading.

For the record, I absolutely agree with this part of the Tildes vision, as written by Deimos:

I believe that it's possible to support the ability to freely discuss important and controversial topics without also being obligated to allow threats, harassment, and hate speech.

Threats, harassment, and hate speech have no place anywhere. But sadly, instead of supporting controversial topics as written, it seems certain topics will have no place here because they are controversial. Tildes right now is not the Tildes we were promised, and seems to be veering further away by the day.

If this is the Tildes everyone wants, that's fine of course. But to me, it's no better than Reddit.

111 comments

  1. [60]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [29]
      neu
      Link Parent
      It seems a bit odd to me that people that are so quick to be annoyed by "power users" on such a small site. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why we would want to steer away from actual...

      I honestly wish people would stop vagueing me (and others) as “power users” for being on the site a lot and occasionally stating our opinion. It’s irritating.

      It seems a bit odd to me that people that are so quick to be annoyed by "power users" on such a small site.

      Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why we would want to steer away from actual power users, who steer influence on the site. But in it's current state, Tildes is very small. You are going to recognize names, and given the number of topics on the front page, it's not hard to find something to contribute to the discussion on most discussions.

      Attacking users who are contributing valuable dialogue in a site's infancy, is in my opinion, a terrible idea. The users that are actually contributing something are why I keep coming back. Because there is content to look at.

      39 votes
      1. [13]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [2]
          PsychoPitcher
          Link Parent
          Yeah, "power users" here are just normal users anywhere else due to the size of the site.

          Yeah, "power users" here are just normal users anywhere else due to the size of the site.

          19 votes
          1. Askme_about_penguins
            Link Parent
            They're normal users with a higher activity than other users, so they get more noticed and more talked about. “Fame” will always bring in criticism.

            They're normal users with a higher activity than other users, so they get more noticed and more talked about.

            “Fame” will always bring in criticism.

            8 votes
        2. Catt
          Link Parent
          I really can't explain it either. I think they're giving "power users" (God I hate this term), too much credit. To do what? I'm not sure. It's not like you commenting on a specific thing will...

          I really can't explain it either. I think they're giving "power users" (God I hate this term), too much credit. To do what? I'm not sure. It's not like you commenting on a specific thing will suddenly landslide the opinions on the topic in your favour.

          12 votes
        3. [3]
          enso
          Link Parent
          The topic of power users is interesting to me at this point. There are definitely a handful of people doing not the majority of posting, but a lot more posting than others. Off the top of my head:...

          The topic of power users is interesting to me at this point. There are definitely a handful of people doing not the majority of posting, but a lot more posting than others. Off the top of my head: you, catt, goldfish, dubteedub, asimov, and calico show up in a lot of threads. I post a lot in ~news and ~enviro and then occasionally pop in to comment, but if we were to stop posting or just post occasionally I think that the speed at which things got to the site and were discussed would be greatly reduced.

          10 votes
          1. [2]
            dubteedub
            Link Parent
            Yeah, I am used to being pretty active on Reddit and for awhile was making a few dozen posts a day across a bunch of subreddits along with modding. I do try and limit myself to like 5ish posts a...

            Yeah, I am used to being pretty active on Reddit and for awhile was making a few dozen posts a day across a bunch of subreddits along with modding.

            I do try and limit myself to like 5ish posts a day on Tildes and spread my posts across different channels as I don't want to seem like I am dominating the site. I do really enjoy the community here and want to support / contribute to it how I can. I think the easiest way for a site like Tildes to die would be if there is not much activity.

            As the site grows, we will naturally have more users regularly making posts so it will not be as obvious I think. That being said, the people most invested in the site are naturally going to contribute more. I don't necessarily see that as a negative unless the quality of submissions is poor.

            14 votes
            1. enso
              Link Parent
              I find it odd here because I contributed very little on Reddit. I have amassed about 4k karma over almost 6 years. But over here, when I browse the site, I will make 4-5 posts every few hours of...

              I find it odd here because I contributed very little on Reddit. I have amassed about 4k karma over almost 6 years. But over here, when I browse the site, I will make 4-5 posts every few hours of activity. I felt like on Reddit there was little chance that there was anything that I found hadn't already been posted. For the most part here, if I see something I will likely have found something new to contribute to the site.

              10 votes
        4. freestylesno
          Link Parent
          If people are noticing the same people post alot and think its influencing the site they have the ability to post to those threads too. This would put them on the same "level" and allow them to...

          If people are noticing the same people post alot and think its influencing the site they have the ability to post to those threads too. This would put them on the same "level" and allow them to influence too.

          It's also a community so you should recognize people.

          6 votes
        5. [5]
          SheepWolf
          Link Parent
          The (not serious) solution would be to have multiple accounts with funny names or variants and comment using those. Although I remember a discussion the other day about throwaway accounts and...

          The (not serious) solution would be to have multiple accounts with funny names or variants and comment using those.

          Although I remember a discussion the other day about throwaway accounts and anonymous posting.

          4 votes
          1. [4]
            Askme_about_penguins
            Link Parent
            What's the site's policy on alt accounts, given the limited access to the site? I'm sitting on a couple of invites I haven't decided what to do with.

            The (not serious) solution would be to have multiple accounts with funny names or variants and comment using those.

            What's the site's policy on alt accounts, given the limited access to the site?

            I'm sitting on a couple of invites I haven't decided what to do with.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              sublime_aenima
              Link Parent
              Totally okay, just don't use them to manipulate ie don't vote yourself, don't dogpile, etc. See the Code of Conduct for more official info

              Totally okay, just don't use them to manipulate ie don't vote yourself, don't dogpile, etc. See the Code of Conduct for more official info

              8 votes
              1. Askme_about_penguins
                Link Parent
                I see. I'll check it out later. Thank you.

                See the Code of Conduct for more official info

                I see. I'll check it out later. Thank you.

                3 votes
            2. SheepWolf
              Link Parent
              I'm not sure if there was/is any consensus, but the thread I was referring to is this one: https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/2x3/daily_tildes_discussion_allowing_users_to_post_anonymously One of...

              I'm not sure if there was/is any consensus, but the thread I was referring to is this one: https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/2x3/daily_tildes_discussion_allowing_users_to_post_anonymously

              One of the main problems was that by allowing anonymous posting or easy to make throwaway accounts, it made it easy to abuse and thus not be able to hold those users accountable for the things they said. That is limited currently because of needing to use your invites to create a new account, but I am certain this is one of many things that are currently being considered along with the reputation system.

              1 vote
      2. [16]
        Heichou
        Link Parent
        The only reason I can think of is envy. Yeah I know, "Y-you're just jealous!" sounds very immature, but what would people prefer? I'm not going to limit/filter the content that I want to put out...

        The only reason I can think of is envy. Yeah I know, "Y-you're just jealous!" sounds very immature, but what would people prefer? I'm not going to limit/filter the content that I want to put out just because other users aren't putting out just as much (Not implying I'm a power user, that'd be a tad pretentious lol). There's no reason to shit on power users. They're posting content and keeping the site alive

        8 votes
        1. [13]
          Askme_about_penguins
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I disagree. I don't think it's envy. We are not 5 year olds. Honestly, I think it's a type of personality. Or, at least, a personality trait. I haven't made a single negative comment about power...

          I disagree. I don't think it's envy. We are not 5 year olds.

          Honestly, I think it's a type of personality. Or, at least, a personality trait. I haven't made a single negative comment about power users. But I'd be lying if I saif I don't feel a very, very small hint of animosity towards them.

          Why? Not because of anything rational. I understand that, because of the small nature of the site, these users are very much necessary or, at least, very useful. My animosity towards them is not irrational. rational*

          It's exclusively based on frequency.

          On reddit, I feel like most users are like: “Oh, the 1007th reiteration of the same effortless repetition of a 7 year old pun! HILARIOUS, HAHAHAHAH im dying [insert row of emojis]” Whereas me, at the 4th time seeing the same meme, already feel like strangling somebody.

          Today, immediately after hearing of the death of Stefán Karl Stefánsson, the first thing I did was go into RES filters and add a filter with his name to filter out any post about him. Because otherwise, I'd go insane.

          Anything that's repeated ad nauseam makes me irrationally angry and annoyed and frustrated at my inability to stop it. I cannot deal with ads, or popular songs on the radio. They annoy me to no end. It's not a conscious decision, I didn't choose to be this way. I'm just like that and I cannot change it, believe me, I've tried. My life would be so much easier if I could stop being annoyed at these things. But I really can't.

          That's why I had to unsubscribe from all the major default subreddits and block all the users with a very high comment karma whose comments I always found without fail on literally every single post on my front page.

          I believe the Tildes' users annoyed at the power users aren't necessarily annoyed at the power users themselves, but at the frequency with which they participate on the site. And it comes from an irrational feeling rather than deliberate ponderation. At least that's how I feel.

          What differentiates me from most of these users is that I generally try to ignore this feeling and don't comment on it, since I know it isn't rational not worth acting upon. If we're lucky, a RES equivalent that allows us to filter out certain users will be developed in the near future and we can filter out anyone we don't want to see all that often.

          9 votes
          1. Heichou
            Link Parent
            I suppose that's an issue inherent to the userbase, then. Personally, I saw people being recognized and regulars popping up and it reminded me of old school gaming forums where people knew each...

            I suppose that's an issue inherent to the userbase, then. Personally, I saw people being recognized and regulars popping up and it reminded me of old school gaming forums where people knew each other, for better or for worse. I like that feeling of community and camaraderie, so I've been striving to make content worth reading/discussing. I wish the power user thing would encourage the others similarly, but I understand why it doesn't

            10 votes
          2. [8]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [7]
              Askme_about_penguins
              Link Parent
              TLDR: Usernames to me are no different from songs or actors or rich visionaries. (To me) Absolutely anything can become annoying if seen enough times. I love Elon Musk and the vision he has for...

              TLDR: Usernames to me are no different from songs or actors or rich visionaries.

              (To me) Absolutely anything can become annoying if seen enough times. I love Elon Musk and the vision he has for the world, but I had to filter him out on Reddit. Why? Because having him pop up every single day on my front page (regardless of what the post was actually about) made me start to hate him. Now that I don't see him as much, I like him again.

              I think Emma Stone is a great actress but for a short period of time I kind of hated her, for the mere reason of being on so many highly advertised movies. And this is just one example of many, many, many other instances.

              Bob Ross, Bill Nye... Really wholesome, great guys, right? Hate them too. Why? Reddit's circlejerk over them. Only reason.

              It just feels like I'm having all these people/things/memes/opinions/jokes/films (DAE Thanos and BALANCE MEMES xdxdxdxd) shoved down my throat all the time and it really, really, really drives me insane.

              If I stopped having access to ad-blockers I think I'd end up in a psych guard. Ads repeat themselves over and over so much.

              I think this way of feeling is actually shared by most if not all people. Just imagine a really innocent ad that gets repeated so many times that you end up really, really hating it. I think most people can relate to this.

              To understand where I'm coming from, just imagine you have a tolerance that's waaaay lower than the average person's and it's not just ads but basically everything.

              Again, I'd change it if I could and I've tried. But I really can't. So I just try my best to hide away from the content.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                frickindeal
                Link Parent
                That honestly sounds like a slightly terrifying thing to live with. Things are repeated so often on TV, on the internet—hell, I get sick of driving the same route to work every day to the point...

                That honestly sounds like a slightly terrifying thing to live with. Things are repeated so often on TV, on the internet—hell, I get sick of driving the same route to work every day to the point where I'll take a longer route just to look at something different, and I make that drive on autopilot so I'm not really even consciously "awake" during it—but to have it be that pervasive that you start to actively hate people you otherwise have no intrinsic problem with, that sounds mildly scary. Have you sought professional help, or do you think it's not something that bothers you enough to make that effort?

                5 votes
                1. [2]
                  Askme_about_penguins
                  Link Parent
                  I don't think anyone would take me seriously. I just avoid TV and ads like the plague. And use a Noise Cancelling headphones with in ear headphones and a high wattage fan system to keep me...

                  Have you sought professional help, or do you think it's not something that bothers you enough to make that effort?

                  I don't think anyone would take me seriously. I just avoid TV and ads like the plague. And use a Noise Cancelling headphones with in ear headphones and a high wattage fan system to keep me isolated from certain unpleasant noises.

                  but to have it be that pervasive that you start to actively hate people you otherwise have no intrinsic problem with, that sounds mildly scary.

                  I mean, it is very annoying, but I never thought of it as being so abnormal that it would require a therapist's help. Whenever I've told people they've just attributed it to a weird, excentric, grumpy personality. I've also never gone into as much detail as I did today, though. So who knows...

                  2 votes
                  1. frickindeal
                    Link Parent
                    Interesting. I can relate a bit—I have a sound must be constantly present habit in my house. TV on as soon as I get home; fans running in just about every room, or at least any room I'm going to...

                    Interesting. I can relate a bit—I have a sound must be constantly present habit in my house. TV on as soon as I get home; fans running in just about every room, or at least any room I'm going to be spending any time in. Electrical outages find me scrambling to find something that makes noise, phone, tablet, anything. Silence is to be avoided at all costs, and I'm not even sure why. Probably because I live alone, but writing it out (I have previously on reddit) makes me wonder what exactly is so terrible about the silence.

              2. [3]
                Petril
                Link Parent
                I'm glad that you seem to realize it's a problem that only you can fix and that you're not asking people to post less. I've never heard of such a thing before. I've always been quite dismissive of...

                I'm glad that you seem to realize it's a problem that only you can fix and that you're not asking people to post less.

                I've never heard of such a thing before.

                I've always been quite dismissive of people who hate things because they're popular, because it seems to me like a childish "I need to be special" thing. I've never considered it from the viewpoint you've presented, which is interesting.

                Your quality of life seems to suffer quite a bit because of this. Have you ever gone (or have you ever considered going) to a doctor with this? I wonder if it's something a mental health professional could help with.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  Askme_about_penguins
                  Link Parent
                  It does, but I really don't know any better. Not really. No one ever takes me seriously when I speak about this issue (honestly when I made the comment I was expecting confrontational or mocking...

                  Your quality of life seems to suffer quite a bit because of this.

                  It does, but I really don't know any better.

                  Have you ever gone (or have you ever considered going) to a doctor with this?

                  Not really. No one ever takes me seriously when I speak about this issue (honestly when I made the comment I was expecting confrontational or mocking replies). I'd be going through my country's free healthcare system and I don't think they'd pay me any attention for there are people out there in much worse circumstances and in more need of help. I wouldn't want to get laughed out of a psychologist's office. And I don't have the money to go through a paid therapist.

                  I wonder if it's something a mental health professional could help with.

                  I don't know enough about it to be certain, but I'm skeptical.

                  If anything, there's a chance that it might be a sympton (?) of a certain disorder I might suspect I have, which is just incurable. And I don't even think they treat it in people like me. That's all supposing I have it, which is only a possibility (I might just be my own flavour of weird... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

                  1 vote
                  1. Petril
                    Link Parent
                    Thanks for answering!

                    Thanks for answering!

          3. [4]
            sublime_aenima
            Link Parent
            Could it be useful to use something like stylish and change it around so that you don't see names or all names are changed to something like <Anonymous>? That way the content of the comment...

            Could it be useful to use something like stylish and change it around so that you don't see names or all names are changed to something like <Anonymous>? That way the content of the comment shouldn't bother you and noticing the same name would not happen (unless mentioned in the text of a comment).

            4 votes
            1. [3]
              Askme_about_penguins
              Link Parent
              It could be useful. But wouldn't it turn this into a completely (like 4chan) anonymous website? I want to know who I'm interacting with. I just don't want to notice them too often. I can only...

              Could it be useful to use something like stylish and change it around so that you don't see names or all names are changed to something like <anonymous>?

              It could be useful. But wouldn't it turn this into a completely (like 4chan) anonymous website?

              I want to know who I'm interacting with. I just don't want to notice them too often.

              I can only speak for myself, though. Maybe these people that are really annoyed by powerusers would actually like this feature. So I actually think it would be a nice feature to have for those who might want it.

              That way the content of the comment shouldn't bother you and noticing the same name would not happen

              My slight annoyance is exclusively at the username (assuming I've seen it too much already). I could agree 100% with what someone says yet still be annoyed that it was them who said it.

              Again, it's pretty irrational and it probably doesn't make sense to most people.

              1 vote
              1. dredmorbius
                Link Parent
                There are many sins which can be committed via CSS. Slowing the hit of information by, say, hiding author names by default but revealing them on hover or click, is an option. That might be...

                There are many sins which can be committed via CSS.

                Slowing the hit of information by, say, hiding author names by default but revealing them on hover or click, is an option. That might be interesting to play with.

                1 vote
              2. sublime_aenima
                Link Parent
                I get it. I used to have a customized style sheet on reddit. If I really wanted to see who posted what, I could use toolbox or RES and get the real name. Otherwise, it was simply <username>.

                I get it. I used to have a customized style sheet on reddit. If I really wanted to see who posted what, I could use toolbox or RES and get the real name. Otherwise, it was simply <username>.

        2. [2]
          neu
          Link Parent
          I think there are legitimate reasons to voice concern about certain users gaining too much influence on a site, but that's not what OP was even referencing in this case. Directing some of the...

          I think there are legitimate reasons to voice concern about certain users gaining too much influence on a site, but that's not what OP was even referencing in this case.

          A lot of users here, including some well-known power users, are quick to call "Hate!" where there is no actual hate.

          Directing some of the blame at "power users" here doesn't make any sense to me, and it's something I am seeing more and more of on this site.

          7 votes
          1. Heichou
            Link Parent
            Yeah I'm worried it's gonna turn into how tripcode users on 4chan are treated eventually

            Yeah I'm worried it's gonna turn into how tripcode users on 4chan are treated eventually

    2. [2]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      Yup, I fully agree. I think having civil discussions on major policy and news developments with viewpoints differing from our own is something we really need more of. I want to discuss climate...

      We have had tons of controversial discussions. I have personally contributed to a lot of them. I personally argued for having more of them. Not wanting literal neo‐Nazism is not in the same stratosphere as creating an oppressive circlejerk.

      Yup, I fully agree. I think having civil discussions on major policy and news developments with viewpoints differing from our own is something we really need more of. I want to discuss climate change, gender norms, elections, and all sorts of things with others that I may disagree with.

      That being said, I don't think of neo-nazis / white supremacy / altright to be a just another political opinion worthy of debate. I think it is extremely important to bring light to these growing hate movements and conspiracy theories gaining traction in the US and abroad, but they are hateful ideologies who we should not be giving a platform for them to spread their propaganda further.

      21 votes
      1. Catt
        Link Parent
        Same. Arguing about gender pay gap is very different than racial superiority (and let's not pretend we're talking about black hair is more dominant in demographics when discussing race realism).

        That being said, I don't think of neo-nazis / white supremacy / altright to be a just another political opinion worthy of debate.

        Same. Arguing about gender pay gap is very different than racial superiority (and let's not pretend we're talking about black hair is more dominant in demographics when discussing race realism).

        15 votes
    3. [22]
      EscReality
      Link Parent
      To be fair Kat, you and a handful of other users (whom I will not name) are the first to show up when a controversial topic is posted. In a way it feels like brigading, even if you guys do not...

      To be fair Kat, you and a handful of other users (whom I will not name) are the first to show up when a controversial topic is posted. In a way it feels like brigading, even if you guys do not mean it intentionally.

      A lot of users here, including some well-known power users, are quick to call "Hate!" where there is no actual hate. Controversial statements are quickly interpreted to their most extreme. Yes, there have been some hateful incidents here and I won't deny that, but a lot of well-meaning discussions are lumped into the mix and shut down because they might lead to hate or because they are associated with hate.

      What he says there rings true for me. It seems that most of the "power users" see in very black and white terms and are very quick to jump to extremes, even when it is not warranted. It's hard to have open discussions when a handful of people push so aggressively against anything that is not their own views. Those same users are very quick to label people as the extreme of whatever view opposes their own (i.e. I personally do not support the Antifa's Black Bloc Militant tactics so I get called a white supremacist, yet there is no basis or reason for that claim). It puts those of us who might have slightly more conservative views on topics on the defensive from the start, even if we are not meaning to be.

      The irony is, I have very liberal views on may subjects, yet because I have taken a mildly conservative stance on a couple of things I get labeled in extremes.

      21 votes
      1. [20]
        dubteedub
        Link Parent
        Has someone actually done that to you on Tildes? Do you have a link? I thought we were having a pretty respectful and civil discussion on the Silent Sam statue yesterday until you told me to stop...

        I personally do not support the Antifa's Black Bloc Militant tactics so I get called a white supremacist, yet there is no basis or reason for that claim

        Has someone actually done that to you on Tildes? Do you have a link?

        It puts those of us who might have slightly more conservative views on topics on the defensive from the start, even if we are not meaning to be.

        I thought we were having a pretty respectful and civil discussion on the Silent Sam statue yesterday until you told me to stop responding to you and called my views childish and easily offended.

        I have seen you make plenty of great posts on this site that I have upvoted, but I am now wary of saying anything on them because you have made it known you have an issue with me personally.

        11 votes
        1. [13]
          guamisc
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          As someone who agrees with your stance on many, many things, I do think the entire social justice movement regularly blasts itself in its own foot and creates unnecessary tension where there does...

          As someone who agrees with your stance on many, many things, I do think the entire social justice movement regularly blasts itself in its own foot and creates unnecessary tension where there does not need to be any. Let me preface this by stating the fact that I am 99.9% on board with just about all mainstream left-wing social causes in the USA.

          I find it extremely disappointing and counter-productive that the same group of people who try to get other people to use "inclusive" language use some extremely divisive (on the face anyways) language themselves. Take the "toxic masculinity" argument from the other day for instance. I'm paraphrasing here, but the general premise from many people was "that is a good description of the phenomenon, if you understand what it means you should have no problem with it". That's not inclusive, that's not inclusive at all. It's frankly downright divisive and combative right off the bat.

          I wish I had spoken up, but I did not, partially because I agreed with one side over the other and I would have been picking a fight with the side I agreed with.

          If we're aiming to create an inclusive and empathetic society, the social justice advocates need to drop the divisive language and tactics that they currently use. Using phrases that will absolutely be seen as an attack, i.e. toxic masculinity above, needs to be stopped. Silencing voices in the process of elevating minority voices needs to be stopped. There is a large gap between ignorance, people who disagree, and agitators - responding to all of those groups by hostilely calling them out often hurts more than it helps. That kind of action does not help our cause, it hurts it. For every one person you convert, you piss off many people.

          If I wasn't clear and you want examples from recent threads, I can provide them. E: grammar

          12 votes
          1. [2]
            Petril
            Link Parent
            I'm honest-to-goodness curious: do you think "White Privilege" is a phrase that people need to stop using? I have come to hate the concepts of both masculinity and femininity. I believe they are...

            I'm honest-to-goodness curious: do you think "White Privilege" is a phrase that people need to stop using?

            I have come to hate the concepts of both masculinity and femininity. I believe they are limiting and outmoded. But I realize that not all of the traits-people-commonly- attribute-to-men are bad. So how, in your opinion, should I draw attention to theBAD-traits-people-commonly-attribute-to-men-and-which-men-show-more-frequently-which-I-believe-is-not-their-fault-because-we-dont-teach-our-boys-enough-interpersonal-communication?

            10 votes
            1. guamisc
              Link Parent
              That one is certainly in a significantly greyer zone than "toxic masculinity", but I do believe it suffers from similar problems. Those problems hurt the efficacy of the message and in some cases...

              That one is certainly in a significantly greyer zone than "toxic masculinity", but I do believe it suffers from similar problems. Those problems hurt the efficacy of the message and in some cases zero it out or hurt the "cause".

              I think you should do it exactly how you did it there - with a decent explanation instead of using exclusive-by-nature, and by extension divisive, shorthand which will immediately put groups of people on the defensive.

              It's just bonkers to me that in trying to be more inclusive and empathetic towards minority groups, people immediately turn around and use marginalizing language against the former majority groups.

              People can't seriously think that is a recipie for success right?

              5 votes
          2. [8]
            Batcow
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I get where you're coming from that phrases like "toxic masculinity" make a lot of people mad when they don't understand the meaning, and some people on the left (like yourself) would rather use...

            I get where you're coming from that phrases like "toxic masculinity" make a lot of people mad when they don't understand the meaning, and some people on the left (like yourself) would rather use something more PC. But personally, if someone is going to see "toxic masculinity" and just instantly assume it's an attack, get offended, and batten down the hatches, that's on them. It shows the kind of narrow minded thinking they're capable of, and that's the kind of person that I can't see myself having a productive discussion with, let alone convincing of anything.

            There are plenty of people accross the political spectrum who are more interested in having an actual conversation then swaying the masses with easy rhetoric. While there is a place where rebranding and mass-appeal politics works (political campaigns), I'm not in that sphere, so I'm not going to water down or rebrand my views to try and reach people I'm not interested in talking to.

            5 votes
            1. [7]
              guamisc
              Link Parent
              I feel like you're ignoring the whole "let's be inclusive but use uninclusive language" point of my post. You readily admit that the phrase "toxic masculinity" can be easily interpreted...

              I feel like you're ignoring the whole "let's be inclusive but use uninclusive language" point of my post. You readily admit that the phrase "toxic masculinity" can be easily interpreted disfavorably, yet instead of working to remedy the situation like you probably would for most minority groups, you attack the person who is not comfortable with your language for very understandable reasons.

              This is why I don't voice this opinion regularly. Because imho, you're being just as blind and stubborn as the people you're railing against.

              It isn't constructive most of the time in real life, and it definitely isn't within the spirit of the rules of this site, as OP referenced.

              8 votes
              1. [6]
                Batcow
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Sorry, I wasn't intentionally ignoring that point. I'm not ignoring it, I disagree that anyone that "toxic masculinity" excludes isn't worth me personally including. I disagree it can be "easily...

                Sorry, I wasn't intentionally ignoring that point. I'm not ignoring it, I disagree that anyone that "toxic masculinity" excludes isn't worth me personally including.

                I disagree it can be "easily interpreted disfavorably". It's really not that misleading a term. If I say "blue dog", why would anyone assume I'm implying that all dogs are blue? If someone misunderstands and then actually seeks an explanation then sure, whatever, that's easy to move on from. But if they misunderstand and instantly shut down intellectually... that's just not my problem, sorry. It's not "blind" and "stubborn" to choose who I want to spend my time engaging with.

                And as for your comparison to adjusting language for minority groups, that's just such a false equivalency. When minorities want you to adjust your language, we want you to stop using slurs or language that has been used to oppress. Toxic masculinity is a scientifically accepted term in psychology and sociology, it's not some insult that kids on the playground or trolls on the internet have come up with. For all the right's claims to be logical and rational, it's absurd how quickly they'll disavow any science (or even any scientific term) that hurts their feelings.

                3 votes
                1. [5]
                  guamisc
                  Link Parent
                  Blue dog cannot be misinterpreted to be an attack on a group that someone identifies with. This seems like much more of a false equivalence than the one you accused me of. Just because something...

                  Blue dog cannot be misinterpreted to be an attack on a group that someone identifies with. This seems like much more of a false equivalence than the one you accused me of.

                  Just because something is a scientific term doesn't mean it has carte blanche to be used. You cannot expect the rest of the world to be experts in psychology, especially since throwing around various psychological terms can be very off-putting.

                  You can defend your actions and rhetoric however you want. This is just one of your allies trying to give you (and others) constructive criticism. I've been ignored and attacked (not saying that you are attacking me here) for this position before, so I'm used to it.

                  Just know that some of your ideological allies think you're doing us a disservice.

                  4 votes
                  1. [4]
                    Batcow
                    Link Parent
                    Fair enough, I guess a fairer comparison would be "radical feminism" which again, doesn't insinuate that all feminists are radical. I understand you're providing constructive criticism, and thank...

                    Fair enough, I guess a fairer comparison would be "radical feminism" which again, doesn't insinuate that all feminists are radical.

                    I understand you're providing constructive criticism, and thank you for that, but trust me I've thought it over and I disagree that it's useful for me specifically. If I were trying to get elected, or if I were a promininent public figure, I'd be a bit more concerned about the way I use language. Right now though, it's not worth the effort and energy for me to make concessions for reactionaries.

                    3 votes
                    1. [3]
                      guamisc
                      Link Parent
                      I, respectfully, would like you to possibly consider that not everyone you're currently writing off as a reactionary deserves the treatment you're dishing out. I do a lot of work on behalf of my...

                      I, respectfully, would like you to possibly consider that not everyone you're currently writing off as a reactionary deserves the treatment you're dishing out.

                      I do a lot of work on behalf of my local Democratic party, and there are large groups of people who are woefully ignorant, and they get significantly more difficult to reach out to because of interactions with people that act similar to how you've portrayed your standard operating procedure here.

                      2 votes
                      1. [2]
                        Batcow
                        Link Parent
                        The people I'm specifically referring to as "reactionary" here are the ones who... well... "react" defensively (aggressively even) to the term toxic masculinity. And I'm not sure exactly what you...

                        The people I'm specifically referring to as "reactionary" here are the ones who... well... "react" defensively (aggressively even) to the term toxic masculinity.

                        And I'm not sure exactly what you think my "standard operating procedure" is. I've tried to make it pretty clear that these just aren't the kind of people I want to have a conversation with. I'm not attacking them, I'm walking away from them, because it's not my job to accomodate their ignorance. Good on you for putting in the effort, but I don't want to and I don't have to, and if they somehow see my retreat as an attack, then they're even further gone than I thought.

                        2 votes
                        1. guamisc
                          Link Parent
                          What I'm saying is that sometimes well-meaning but ignorant people will predictably react defensively and that maybe the onus is on you to use more inherently inclusive language.

                          What I'm saying is that sometimes well-meaning but ignorant people will predictably react defensively and that maybe the onus is on you to use more inherently inclusive language.

                          2 votes
          3. [2]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            Dunno how quickly you noped out of that thread, but I made some headway on helping some people understand why "toxic masculinity" needs a serious re-branding. Or at least, it would appear so based...

            Take the "toxic masculinity" argument from the other day for instance.

            Dunno how quickly you noped out of that thread, but I made some headway on helping some people understand why "toxic masculinity" needs a serious re-branding.

            Or at least, it would appear so based on the amount of votes I got.

            2 votes
            1. guamisc
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              I didn't post because normally people espousing that view get shouted down by a small, vocal minority group in real-life when that issue gets brought up. Let's just say that I'm extremely active...

              I didn't post because normally people espousing that view get shouted down by a small, vocal minority group in real-life when that issue gets brought up.

              Let's just say that I'm extremely active in my local Democratic party and those kinds of reactions are a serious problem and seriously harm our outreach efforts as they basically shutdown legitimate conversation and derail everything into a shit-flinging contest.

              3 votes
        2. [2]
          EscReality
          Link Parent
          Eh, I got frustrated with the large amount of people attacking me for taking a stance that was against the norm. We were having a good discussion, sorry about my harsh response it wasn't...

          I thought we were having a pretty respectful and civil discussion on the Silent Sam statue yesterday until you told me to stop responding to you and called my views childish and easily offended.

          Eh, I got frustrated with the large amount of people attacking me for taking a stance that was against the norm. We were having a good discussion, sorry about my harsh response it wasn't necessarily directed at you and I really don't have anything against you personally. There was just one point where I had like 3 or 4 comments from you and I got frustrated and took it out on you. I enjoy the discussion and you actually take the time to formulate intelligent replies and I appreciate that. Although I might suggest keeping it to one thread, jumping all over like that can get frustrating for the person on the defence.

          So yea, my bad.

          As for that post, I don't remember who it was, but yea, last week when I commented on a topic about the Antifa I was basically called a Nazi for not supporting their militant tactics. When in reality I don't support either group (for different reasons obviously). It was on a Vox link that JayJay posted if I remember correctly.

          But I mean, Zekka literally just made a multiple page long rant mostly about me (and a couple others) and a big part of it called me a racist (not true btw). So yeah, it's been said directly at me, even if my name was replaced with an emoji.

          9 votes
          1. dubteedub
            Link Parent
            Well if you're cool, I'm cool. I think it is easy to get heated in discussions that relate to white supremacy and things like that. I know I personally need to do better at not making assumptions...

            Well if you're cool, I'm cool.

            I think it is easy to get heated in discussions that relate to white supremacy and things like that.

            I know I personally need to do better at not making assumptions based on my many years of negative experiences with the altright on reddit. I know I am keenly aware of their dog whistles and arguments, but also understand that not everyone else is.

            Edit: for what it's worth, I dont think you are racist or a white supremacist. I understand your view is to take those monuments at face value as historical, but myself and many others believe them to have a broader and more racist meaning.

            8 votes
        3. [4]
          arghdos
          Link Parent
          Oh, do you mean like the time that you implied another user was racist when they defended freedom of speech for bigots? I agree with /u/EscReality on this.

          Has someone actually done that to you on Tildes? Do you have a link?

          Oh, do you mean like the time that you implied another user was racist when they defended freedom of speech for bigots?

          I agree with /u/EscReality on this.

          7 votes
          1. [3]
            dubteedub
            Link Parent
            While I do believe that bigots are quick to disingenuously rush to a free speech defense of other bigots, you are right, I should have phrased my point differently, and I apologize for the...

            While I do believe that bigots are quick to disingenuously rush to a free speech defense of other bigots, you are right, I should have phrased my point differently, and I apologize for the implication I made towards JayJay.

            The underlying issue I have with free speech advocates and why I am skeptical/critical of them, is that while they are typically eager to rush to the defense of holocaust deniers, white supremacist, and members of the altright, from my experiences it is rare for those same people to defend the speech for minorities or women or queer people.

            8 votes
            1. [2]
              arghdos
              Link Parent
              Well, I applaud your reasonableness now, but I think this is another case of exactly what /u/EscReality was talking about. 100% agreement, but I do believe it is important to remember the...

              While I do believe that bigots are quick to disingenuously rush to a free speech defense of other bigots, you are right, I should have phrased my point differently, and I apologize for the implication I made towards JayJay.

              Well, I applaud your reasonableness now, but I think this is another case of exactly what /u/EscReality was talking about.

              The underlying issue I have with free speech advocates and why I am skeptical/critical of them, is that while they are typically eager to rush to the defense of holocaust deniers, white supremacist, and members of the altright, from my experiences it is rare for those same people to defend the speech for minorities or women or queer people.

              100% agreement, but I do believe it is important to remember the principle of charity when evaluating another user's comment, at least until it is certain they are acting in bad faith (though, I equally know that I too struggle with that from time to time).

              10 votes
              1. EscReality
                Link Parent
                This is what I was talking about and it's probably a good thing I was not a participant of that discussion.

                This is what I was talking about and it's probably a good thing I was not a participant of that discussion.

                5 votes
      2. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. EscReality
          Link Parent
          No, no of course not. Although, others have. I was just trying to provide more perspective on OP's view. I didn't mean for you to take it personally, I just get where he is coming from.

          No, no of course not. Although, others have.

          I was just trying to provide more perspective on OP's view.

          I didn't mean for you to take it personally, I just get where he is coming from.

          5 votes
    4. Kraetos
      Link Parent
      I feel like I've been bamboozled here, because compared to the previous thread @Tenlock has completely reversed course: we've gone from "you've got my vote [to ban pure politics]" to "it seems...

      I have personally contributed to a lot of them. I personally argued for having more of them.

      I feel like I've been bamboozled here, because compared to the previous thread @Tenlock has completely reversed course: we've gone from "you've got my vote [to ban pure politics]" to "it seems certain topics will have no place here because they are controversial."

      What am I missing?

      16 votes
    5. Eugene
      Link Parent
      I honestly only recognize you because people keep calling you a power user. In my experience you post no more often than I would expect anyone to. I think people are either making a fuss of it now...

      I honestly only recognize you because people keep calling you a power user. In my experience you post no more often than I would expect anyone to. I think people are either making a fuss of it now so that when the trust system is added they won't have to "compete" with you for added privileges, or they're just jealous that they don't have anything interesting to say on as many things as you do.

      13 votes
    6. [2]
      doug3465
      Link Parent
      Complaining about “power users” on this site is just idiotic. If it bothers you that much and you are unable to ignore usernames then develop a plug in that hides them or something. Consume the...

      Complaining about “power users” on this site is just idiotic. If it bothers you that much and you are unable to ignore usernames then develop a plug in that hides them or something. Consume the content. Who contributes it is irrelevant.

      6 votes
      1. Askme_about_penguins
        Link Parent
        I would if I knew how. I can only wait for a RES equivalent with that feature.

        If it bothers you that much and you are unable to ignore usernames then develop a plug in that hides them or something.

        I would if I knew how. I can only wait for a RES equivalent with that feature.

        1 vote
    7. [3]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [3]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Askme_about_penguins
          Link Parent
          I believe their username is just a lot easier to remember than most's.

          I don't think its fair to single out Kat or any of them

          I believe their username is just a lot easier to remember than most's.

          2 votes
        2. Fin
          Link Parent
          I wasn't being mean hearted or anything. I have removed the post

          I wasn't being mean hearted or anything. I have removed the post

          1 vote
  2. [11]
    hungariantoast
    Link
    If you could provide references and sources for your dissent when you make public posts like this, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a lot of stuff to do and cannot follow the meta-drama, so...

    But sadly, instead of supporting controversial topics as written, it seems certain topics will have no place here because they are controversial.

    If you could provide references and sources for your dissent when you make public posts like this, I would greatly appreciate it. I have a lot of stuff to do and cannot follow the meta-drama, so when you make a claim like this, I'd really like some sources to read up on, otherwise I'm left to just take your word for it. Thanks.

    32 votes
    1. [11]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. Crespyl
        Link Parent
        You know, now that you mention it, "sage"-ing might be a really useful tool to help controversial threads to cool down over time and not constantly be brought back to the front page to drag in...

        You know, now that you mention it, "sage"-ing might be a really useful tool to help controversial threads to cool down over time and not constantly be brought back to the front page to drag in more people.

        Either at the level of individual commenters opting-out of the activity bump, or a moderator-level action preventing new comments from bumping the post, it seems like something worth exploring a little further.

        13 votes
      2. [6]
        Catt
        Link Parent
        I don't want a downvote, but these meta threads have been distracting. I'll rather not unsub from ~tildes or ~talk too. Maybe, we need a tag to filter on, though I'm honestly not sure how to group...

        I don't want a downvote, but these meta threads have been distracting. I'll rather not unsub from ~tildes or ~talk too. Maybe, we need a tag to filter on, though I'm honestly not sure how to group these.

        6 votes
        1. [6]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. bchall
            Link Parent
            I think a rant tag would be appropriate. I think the meta-discussion and so forth is important, but I don't come to this site to read about people talking about the site. Not that these...

            I think a rant tag would be appropriate. I think the meta-discussion and so forth is important, but I don't come to this site to read about people talking about the site. Not that these discussions are inherently bad, just not what everyone always wants to see.

            7 votes
          2. Catt
            Link Parent
            I don't think "rant" is bad, but I think having the tag added for you might be. I was thinking maybe "bye" or something.

            I don't think "rant" is bad, but I think having the tag added for you might be. I was thinking maybe "bye" or something.

            3 votes
          3. [2]
            Askme_about_penguins
            Link Parent
            Slightly off-topic but how do you add tags? Can all users add them? Or only some higher trust users do?

            Slightly off-topic but how do you add tags? Can all users add them? Or only some higher trust users do?

            1 vote
            1. dubteedub
              Link Parent
              You can add / edit post tags to your own posts. Deimos just gave a some users the ability to edit other people's tags, edit titles, and move posts from one channel to another a couple of days ago....

              You can add / edit post tags to your own posts. Deimos just gave a some users the ability to edit other people's tags, edit titles, and move posts from one channel to another a couple of days ago.

              https://tildes.net/~tildes.official/53r/users_can_now_be_manually_granted_permissions_to_re_tag_topics_move_them_between_groups_and_edit

              3 votes
      3. Askme_about_penguins
        Link Parent
        And I love that we don't have it. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have your wonderful comment (I'm being honest here, not sarcastic or anything like that) which explains why someone would want to...

        I wish I had some sort of downvote beyond simply not commenting on a topic (maybe there could be a feature like 4chan where I can "sage", i.e my post wouldn't bump the topic via the activity sort).

        And I love that we don't have it. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have your wonderful comment (I'm being honest here, not sarcastic or anything like that) which explains why someone would want to downvote a post that really resonated with me.

        Now, instead of just downvoting and moving on, you explained why you didn't like this post. And offered criticism which can be used to further improve the site and users' behavior. I believe that's a wonderful thing.

        it's yelling out a screed and then shutting the door behind you before anyone can respond.

        Isn't that exactly what a downvote is? Saying you disagree or dislike it without giving a chance to the other party to discuss the topic?

        6 votes
      4. Whom
        Link Parent
        I would love the ability to sage on this site. I feel like something causing an argument (or just a long conversation) has proven itself not to automatically mean it's worth sticking to the top of...

        I would love the ability to sage on this site. I feel like something causing an argument (or just a long conversation) has proven itself not to automatically mean it's worth sticking to the top of the website until it's over.

        Even in non-controversial topics, sometimes following up a question and being friendly afterwards feels weird because it'll bump something that's worthless to most other users.

        4 votes
      5. Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        We used to call it "flouncing" in a private Facebook group I was a member of many years ago. It's a very dramatic attention-seeking way of leaving. And, in my experience on Reddit, some of these...

        Especially because pairing it with "I'm leaving!" is participation in bad faith in my opinion, it's yelling out a screed and then shutting the door behind you before anyone can respond.

        We used to call it "flouncing" in a private Facebook group I was a member of many years ago. It's a very dramatic attention-seeking way of leaving. And, in my experience on Reddit, some of these flouncers don't actually leave. Having gotten the attention they sought, they stay around.

        2 votes
  3. [6]
    ComradeCatgirl
    Link
    There are certain controversial topics that warrant no debate, no benefit of the doubt, no charitable interpretations. It would be nice if you actually gave examples, "well-meaning discussions,...

    There are certain controversial topics that warrant no debate, no benefit of the doubt, no charitable interpretations.

    It would be nice if you actually gave examples, "well-meaning discussions, charitable interpretations, honest discussions" are all subjective metrics, and open for debate. I don't want to presume what you're referring to. However, people with racist, transphobic, homophobic, etc opinions usually do not think of themselves as hateful, racist, etc. In fact, people like that love to think their beliefs are scientific, rational, in good-faith, etc. That doesn't mean anyone should give them the benefit of the doubt because they don't realize their own hateful ideology.

    30 votes
    1. Kijafa
      Link Parent
      It had to do with racism I think. I looked through OP's history and found this removed post. I'm guessing this is what OP is talking about. There's a lot of hating on "race realism" which I think...

      It had to do with racism I think. I looked through OP's history and found this removed post. I'm guessing this is what OP is talking about. There's a lot of hating on "race realism" which I think is a good way to deal with racism-with-a-new-paint-job.

      13 votes
    2. [4]
      Dot
      Link Parent
      I agree, perhaps not to the same degree of zeal, but context really matters. Tildes should have a court system.

      I agree, perhaps not to the same degree of zeal, but context really matters. Tildes should have a court system.

      1 vote
      1. [4]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Dot
          Link Parent
          yea but I thought that was like joke/entertainment, it would be cool if we had something more serious and engrained in Tildes.

          yea but I thought that was like joke/entertainment, it would be cool if we had something more serious and engrained in Tildes.

          3 votes
        2. Askme_about_penguins
          Link Parent
          That's just a tongue-in-cheek subreddit without actual power.

          That's just a tongue-in-cheek subreddit without actual power.

          1 vote
        3. SheepWolf
          Link Parent
          I thought Karma court was about some Redditors stealing photos/content from others or sometimes reposting popular posts from other subreddits and using that to gain karma points.

          I thought Karma court was about some Redditors stealing photos/content from others or sometimes reposting popular posts from other subreddits and using that to gain karma points.

  4. [4]
    Amarok
    Link
    Frankly, it's going to take a while for people to decompress after coming in from reddit or facebook or wherever. Those forums have been teaching and rewarding negative behaviors for many years....

    Frankly, it's going to take a while for people to decompress after coming in from reddit or facebook or wherever. Those forums have been teaching and rewarding negative behaviors for many years. That doesn't go away just because we ask nicely. It's going to take work on the part of the users here to show people a different way, and it's never going to be 'done' because it's going to flare up with every wave of new invites and every wave of open registrations once we reach that point.

    27 votes
    1. [3]
      Askme_about_penguins
      Link Parent
      As much as I despise the downvote button and culture, I have to admit (shamefully) that I've rushed to downvote certain comments a few (very few, I promise) times while on this site. Only to...

      As much as I despise the downvote button and culture, I have to admit (shamefully) that I've rushed to downvote certain comments a few (very few, I promise) times while on this site. Only to remember we don't really have a downvote button. And if I care enough about this topic to show my disagreement, then I need to make a higher-than-pressing-a-button-effort comment about it.

      But the longer I'm here, the more I adapt to the lack of it. So I'm optimistic about the site's future. And I trust most users will have a similar experience. At least, I hope so.

      7 votes
      1. Amarok
        Link Parent
        It's just going to take time and reflection. No one has ever solved these problems, and people who come rushing into Tildes expecting it to have them solved at this alpha state are in for some...

        It's just going to take time and reflection. No one has ever solved these problems, and people who come rushing into Tildes expecting it to have them solved at this alpha state are in for some disappointment. Maybe by the time we're fully open registration, but not yet.

        11 votes
      2. Chopincakes
        Link Parent
        I've honestly had this same exact experience of seeing something that's low effort or just nonsensical babble and wanting to downvote, but remembering that it doesn't exist here. I think your...

        I've honestly had this same exact experience of seeing something that's low effort or just nonsensical babble and wanting to downvote, but remembering that it doesn't exist here.

        I think your reflection about making a comment in those times to show disagreement is exactly the reason why I'm liking it here more than Reddit or any other social media. Thanks for putting it into much better words than I could in my mind.

        3 votes
  5. [2]
    CALICO
    Link
    You're entitled to your opinion, regardless of what I think of it. Hope you find a community more to your liking.

    You're entitled to your opinion, regardless of what I think of it.
    Hope you find a community more to your liking.

    24 votes
    1. Diet_Coke
      Link Parent
      That's a very nice way of saying bye Felicia.

      That's a very nice way of saying bye Felicia.

      22 votes
  6. [3]
    Flashynuff
    (edited )
    Link
    Hey, thanks for posting. I think it's always going to be hard to discuss controversial topics. People feel really strongly about them, and it's difficult to avoid falling back on easier-but-worse...

    Hey, thanks for posting.

    I think it's always going to be hard to discuss controversial topics. People feel really strongly about them, and it's difficult to avoid falling back on easier-but-worse arguments or burning out on talking about them entirely. I absolutely think Tildes has potential to be a great platform for discussing these topics, but.... we're still in alpha, and we're still missing a lot of tools to help us make those discussions less painful.

    I think everyone really needs to remember Daily Tildes discussion - Just... try to relax a bit.

    This really isn't necessary. Every instance of a post being a bit outside the lines isn't a harbinger of the site's impending doom. I know that a lot of you are passionate about having a higher-quality community site, but it doesn't mean that everything even slightly outside that goal needs to be viciously suppressed.
    ...
    So... just try to relax a bit, it'll be okay. Tildes is still very new, and there's a lot to figure out. The site's got a lot of growth and evolution in its future, and it doesn't need to be run with an iron fist from the very beginning. I promise that there's a solid vision for the site and I'm going to make sure it goes in that direction

    I think this also applies to folks worried about alt right talking points sneaking in. Nobody wants that crap here. I don't think Deimos does either, and I've seen him take quick and reasoned action whenever actual clearly bad-faith users pop up. The site's in good hands IMO.

    Also, to address part of your post specifically:

    If people treat each other in good faith and apply charitable interpretations

    I think this goes the other way, too. I don't think anyone you're describing actually wants to shout out everyone they disagree with. They likely feel strongly about not making the same mistakes that Reddit made (of which there are many), and want Tildes to be the best site it can be. We're all here together, you know :)

    23 votes
    1. [2]
      Kenny
      Link Parent
      I love your response and totally agree with referencing the "try to relax a bit" post. It seems like every day there's a dramatic discussion about how something is ruining the site.

      I love your response and totally agree with referencing the "try to relax a bit" post. It seems like every day there's a dramatic discussion about how something is ruining the site.

      1 vote
      1. Flashynuff
        Link Parent
        Thanks :) People really need to remember that it's not as big of a deal as they think it is. We're all here to build a better site and community together, there's no need to spend our time with...

        Thanks :)

        People really need to remember that it's not as big of a deal as they think it is. We're all here to build a better site and community together, there's no need to spend our time with our gaze locked to our navel.

  7. [3]
    BashCrandiboot
    Link
    I would say that all the things you pointed out are reasons you should not only stay on tildes, but actively voice out these opinions when you find it necessary. Be the change you want to see and...

    I would say that all the things you pointed out are reasons you should not only stay on tildes, but actively voice out these opinions when you find it necessary. Be the change you want to see and all that good stuff. By leaving you are just as much contributing to an echo chamber while simultaneously reinforcing your own bubble.

    20 votes
    1. [2]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      That is exactly the same response that was provided the last time we had a conservative user who felt that their viewpoints were not represented enough on Tildes and made a big announcement post...

      Be the change you want to see and all that good stuff.

      That is exactly the same response that was provided the last time we had a conservative user who felt that their viewpoints were not represented enough on Tildes and made a big announcement post about how they were leaving the site.

      https://tildes.net/~tildes/4c1/i_think_we_need_more_conservative_voices_to_balance_out_the_intense_liberalism_of_tildes#comment-19me

      8 votes
      1. BashCrandiboot
        Link Parent
        I'm not talking about conservatives or bigotry or any of that. Is OP a conservative? Does it matter? Topics like this are getting really exhausting. My point was that if OP is browsing tildes, and...

        I'm not talking about conservatives or bigotry or any of that. Is OP a conservative? Does it matter? Topics like this are getting really exhausting.

        My point was that if OP is browsing tildes, and he/she a comment that he/she believes contradicts the clauses mentioned in the post above, then he should vocalize that in the instances they occur- not in a post like this. All this post does is provide a platform for everyone to shout from and get angry about- on both sides of the spectrum. And when someone tells you you are wrong, it is really hard to just let it go.

        I do think this community (tildes as a whole) very heavily leans towards a certain demographic, and I'm not saying that from a political perspective. I don't think the answer to that is to get users that are "opposite" of what users here tend to be, but maybe we should provide avenues that cultivate different forms of discussion.

        For instance, every group on tildes seems to be very general and encapsulates a large variety of subtopics, but the group that immediately stands out to me is anime. I'm definitely not saying there is anything wrong with anime by any means, I like it, but to a lot of people it seems to be a more niche topic that could easily fall under ~tv. Am I calling for the removal of ~anime? Of course not. Do I think its existence implies a precedent for the user base of this site? Absolutely, and I think it serves as a simple, non-toxic/non-accusatory example of how we could improve the health of the community.

        11 votes
  8. Heichou
    Link
    I feel like in any community that tends to lean a certain way officially (This site is very left leaning), there will always be dissent when discussing the "other side". Besides 4chan with its...

    I feel like in any community that tends to lean a certain way officially (This site is very left leaning), there will always be dissent when discussing the "other side". Besides 4chan with its total anonymity, I don't think a model for a site could work where we all discuss politics with impunity and almost no bias. People feel strongly towards certain things and react negatively towards things that challenge their things. That's human nature, and it's never going to be perfectly balanced unless there's no moderation whatsoever. I also think it's pertinent to point out that far too many people on this site get way too into politics. This site was supposed to be more than just slinging around buzzwords and disparaging groups of people, guys. We have like 9 other boards that aren't politics based. If that stuff annoys/angers you, filter it out. This site isn't just shout politics and I wish people wouldnt form judgements based on that ever-tumultuous state of affairs

    17 votes
  9. Zeph
    Link
    Thank you for making a public post, I find it preferable to get things in the open and I agree with you. Tildes sounds great in theory but it's having some growing pains right now.

    Thank you for making a public post, I find it preferable to get things in the open and I agree with you. Tildes sounds great in theory but it's having some growing pains right now.

    16 votes
  10. [12]
    NubWizard
    Link
    I agree with this and is the approach I try to take. I will add on to this conversation by linking the wiki for group polarization to better understand the implications for a hard line moderation:...

    If people treat each other in good faith and apply charitable interpretations, everyone's experience improves.

    I agree with this and is the approach I try to take.

    I will add on to this conversation by linking the wiki for group polarization to better understand the implications for a hard line moderation:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_polarization

    Group polarization is an important phenomenon in social psychology and is observable in many social contexts. For example, a group of women who hold moderately feminist views tend to demonstrate heightened pro-feminist beliefs following group discussion. Similarly, have shown that after deliberating together, mock jury members often decided on punitive damage awards that were either larger or smaller than the amount any individual juror had favored prior to deliberation. The studies indicated that when the jurors favored a relatively low award, discussion would lead to an even more lenient result, while if the jury was inclined to impose a stiff penalty, discussion would make it even harsher. Moreover, in recent years, the Internet and online social media have also presented opportunities to observe group polarization and compile new research. Psychologists have found that social media outlets such as Facebook and Twitter demonstrate that group polarization can occur even when a group is not physically together. As long as the group of individuals begins with the same fundamental opinion on the topic and a consistent dialogue is kept going, group polarization can occur.

    And another article on combatting this phenomenon:

    https://www.spring.org.uk/2009/09/group-polarization-the-trend-to-extreme-decisions.php

    Psychologists have been less keen to offer ‘solutions’ to group polarization than they have other phenomena in group decision-making such as groupthink or the failure of groups to share information. However, because groupthink has similar causes to polarization, much the same approach can be used. This is all about nurturing dissent in a group by encouraging the discussion of multiple perspectives and critical viewpoints. Indeed research conducted by Fishkin and Luskin (1999) has shown that diverse groups do not polarize.

    We need diverse viewpoints. So the question shouldn't be should we ban certain topics, but rather what the moderation surrounding those topics looks like.

    Maybe instead of a single moderator closing a thread down, trusted users can be polled on whether to do so?

    Maybe if a thread is controversial, a special commenting mode or an auto mod is enabled that has stricter rules around posting (e.g. one that is like /r/neutralpolitics.

    And based on the articles that I posted, I encourage you to stay Tenlock. You might ruffle some users feathers and they might ruffle yours but at least if they are being ruffled, it means we have something we can disagree on and talk about.

    11 votes
    1. [12]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [2]
        NubWizard
        Link Parent
        The key is to correctly identify what is hateful/abusive and what is not while working towards not having a closed system where polarization can occur. A poll doesn't have to be about locking the...

        than to stop hate and abuse would go so far for right now.

        The key is to correctly identify what is hateful/abusive and what is not while working towards not having a closed system where polarization can occur.

        A poll doesn't have to be about locking the thread, it could be about whether a thread is controversial or not so the strict commenting rules I mentioned become active.

        I think Tildes is a good place to have those conversations that are controversial where users can do the work of disproving the hateful rhetoric. Meanwhile, everyone is expected to have an even higher bar to reach that prevents the disingenuous tactics some groups take from being used and cries of censorship are silenced because everyone is playing by the same hard rules as everyone else.

        These are just brainstorming ideas to keep a solid core for discussion across the site. I would welcome reading your ideas.

        6 votes
        1. [2]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. NubWizard
            Link Parent
            I would have to respectfully disagree with your solution then. I think that way moderation is set up and acted on is fundamentally flawed for the traditional forum set up, especially one geared...

            I would have to respectfully disagree with your solution then.

            I think that way moderation is set up and acted on is fundamentally flawed for the traditional forum set up, especially one geared toward high quality discussion.

            What I have noticed over the years is:

            1. The content of the forum begins to reflect only the views and opinions of the moderator(s)
            2. Trolls find a way to exploit the sensitive areas of a sites culture and can peel users who are unwary but nonetheless fine by creating polarization
            3. Moderation becoming less diverse with view points over time due to moderators disengaging if their values aren't aligned with the majority of the moderator group.
            4. Polarization occurs that is centered around what is left of moderators and users, where a forum becomes a hollow representation of what it was aiming to be.

            I personally would be interested in creating a moderator structure that mimics a government (as silly as that sounds) where we have different tiers, segmented roles but checks/balances applied, high transparency, and accountability provided by the users.

            But as it is right now, we have the opportunity to work towards a new and creative way to effectively moderate by trying different solutions and seeing the results.

            8 votes
      2. [9]
        Celeo
        Link Parent
        An example of this happening is StackOverflow: some questions are closed within the first 5 minutes by a group of 5 (or fewer) people watching their favorite tag, or they sit in the queue for months.

        unacceptably small sample size, or take unacceptably long

        An example of this happening is StackOverflow: some questions are closed within the first 5 minutes by a group of 5 (or fewer) people watching their favorite tag, or they sit in the queue for months.

        2 votes
        1. [9]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [8]
            deciduous
            Link Parent
            I'm not even sure what the problem is. I've seen only a handful of topics locked or shut down and it's always been pretty clear why.

            I'm not even sure what the problem is. I've seen only a handful of topics locked or shut down and it's always been pretty clear why.

            7 votes
            1. [7]
              NubWizard
              Link Parent
              It sometimes can take a bit of time for a thread to be locked. However, if a post can be identified as controversial and goes into a 'Controversial' mode, we could negate locking it altogether by...

              It sometimes can take a bit of time for a thread to be locked.

              However, if a post can be identified as controversial and goes into a 'Controversial' mode, we could negate locking it altogether by having an auto mod be very strict on posting guidelines and elevate those guidelines to a set of strict rules. Then a thread won't have to be locked and when a user can't back up their claim or begins slinging insults or being condescending, their post gets removed but the topic stays open.

              4 votes
              1. [6]
                deciduous
                Link Parent
                Sounds like a good idea. What do you think could be a criteria for a post to be marked as "controversial" and what would the strict rules look like?

                Sounds like a good idea. What do you think could be a criteria for a post to be marked as "controversial" and what would the strict rules look like?

                1 vote
                1. [3]
                  NubWizard
                  Link Parent
                  I think if you were wanting to automate flagging posts automatically, you could look at how many standard deviations away from the average comment per hour a thread is to basically identify it as...

                  I think if you were wanting to automate flagging posts automatically, you could look at how many standard deviations away from the average comment per hour a thread is to basically identify it as an outlier. Then look at the shape of a comment chain to see how it compares to other comment chains on the site.

                  Those are just two factors I can think of that is basic calculations, you could do sentiment analysis to see how comments are comparing to each other.

                  Non automated approach would be just to have users click a button for controversial if a thread is controversial to trigger the mode.

                  I think posting guidelines would look like:

                  • Comments are sourced
                  • Personal attacks cause a temporary cool down of a few hours from posting
                  • Comments have a timer before a response can be made
                  • Source links must be clicked (if this can be tracked) before a comment could be made unless the source post has a lot of quotes.

                  And maybe a controversial one but:

                  • Comments cannot break down another users comments with each response.

                  Often times you will see something like this:

                  Piece of comment

                  'You are wrong'

                  Piece of comment

                  'You are wrong'

                  Piece of comment

                  'Really?'

                  I don't think going line by line through a comment trying to pick is an effective means of talking about the thesis around a comment. To me it comes off of trying to inflict death by a thousand papercuts or doing gish-gallop style debating.

                  3 votes
                  1. [2]
                    deciduous
                    Link Parent
                    A lot of these suggestions seems difficult for an automod to enforce. How would the automod interpret a source that is not a link, such as a quoted chapter from a book? And how can an automod...

                    A lot of these suggestions seems difficult for an automod to enforce. How would the automod interpret a source that is not a link, such as a quoted chapter from a book? And how can an automod interpret personal attacks? Performing sentiment analysis on comments seems like a big step from the current state of tildes.

                    1. NubWizard
                      Link Parent
                      By source I mean a hyperlink somewhere off site. For personal attacks, it would require a running list of words such: 'cunt' 'idiot' 'moron' Things like that at it's very basic self. It wouldn't...

                      By source I mean a hyperlink somewhere off site. For personal attacks, it would require a running list of words such:

                      'cunt'
                      'idiot'
                      'moron'

                      Things like that at it's very basic self. It wouldn't catch everything but even a small percent of catches with a low Type 1 error would keep thinks more civil, faster, than waiting on people moderators.

                      Sentiment analysis is a pie in the sky thought.

                      Really, these ideas I'm floating around aren't easy at all. However, I was hoping they would prompt more of a discussion around what moderation could look like that could reduce the human error that can occur with human moderators using poorly defined rules and examples as their base.

                      2 votes
                2. [2]
                  Chopincakes
                  Link Parent
                  Maybe some kind of user reporting system of marking the OP of a thread as "controversial" meaning that something in there warrants some kind of moderator to look over? Probably use some kind of...

                  Maybe some kind of user reporting system of marking the OP of a thread as "controversial" meaning that something in there warrants some kind of moderator to look over? Probably use some kind of scale about number of comments in a post compared to number of 'controversial' flags?

                  1 vote
                  1. deciduous
                    Link Parent
                    I would generally prefer users to be the ones marking a topic as controversial rather than an algorithm so I prefer this suggestion. The OP could also potentially mark it as controversial when...

                    I would generally prefer users to be the ones marking a topic as controversial rather than an algorithm so I prefer this suggestion. The OP could also potentially mark it as controversial when posting to factor into calculations.

                    2 votes
  11. Dot
    Link
    I have not really experienced what you are talking about, I feel debates have been heated which is fine, I think the solution is exactly what you are doing, raising awareness about what you feel....

    I have not really experienced what you are talking about, I feel debates have been heated which is fine, I think the solution is exactly what you are doing, raising awareness about what you feel. People are people and will react in ways that you can't strangle out or account for. As someone who hasn't felt how you feel about Tildes, ill be happy to listen, and do my personal best to change. But quitting because it's not perfect I would call disappointing and not a strong move... good luck I guess.

    9 votes
  12. [2]
    Askme_about_penguins
    Link
    I completely agree with you. And I think and talk about it often. Though I use different words. In my experience, people love assuming, meaning no matter how clear you are and how careful you are...

    I completely agree with you. And I think and talk about it often. Though I use different words.

    In my experience, people love assuming, meaning no matter how clear you are and how careful you are in the wording of your thoughts, people will most of the time interpret it the way they want, which might or might not be the way you intended for it to be interpreted.

    Hell, even if you go out of your way to specifically tell people to take your words as they are, at face value, without trying to find a double meaning, they'll still assume you mean different things.

    I hate that. But that's as human as it gets. I've never been on a community that wasn't like that.

    So, my question is, if you're leaving Tildes, where are you going?

    9 votes
    1. Chopincakes
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      This kind of reminds me of The Fundamental Attribution Error, wherein, people will always interpret words (edit: and actions) based on internal factors and biases, rather than on external factors...

      This kind of reminds me of The Fundamental Attribution Error, wherein, people will always interpret words (edit: and actions) based on internal factors and biases, rather than on external factors or experiences that have shaped those beliefs.

      It moreso applies in general human behavior and less so on message boards, but I still think it's an important concept to keep in mind when people are making comments that might seem, erm, less thoughtful or offputting.

      4 votes
  13. JuniperMonkeys
    Link
    I think in terms of what's healthy for a community, the subject of a debate can be much more telling than its tone. I would support a community that tolerated inventive swears, ancient curses, and...

    I think in terms of what's healthy for a community, the subject of a debate can be much more telling than its tone. I would support a community that tolerated inventive swears, ancient curses, and literal sword fights (have fun, mods!) about deep dish vs. thin crust, Game Boy vs. Game Gear, Senna vs. Prost, or tabs vs. spaces, but am absolutely uninterested in toleration of "honest discussion" that includes things like hate speech, no matter how civil it might be.

    So my take is that one should describe "controversial", because that use sounds pretty damn loaded to me. I dispute the idea that a horrible opinion, when presented coherently, injects actual controversy into a debate. "Controversial" is a word is too often used to either say "this is an awful idea that I am too milquetoast to condemn", or "I wish to get my indefensible BS on the grown-up table".

    All communities will have their own floors for what is "genuinely controversial" and, below that, what is removable. I don't mean to condemn you by association, but when you say "no controversial ideas; echo chamber!" I hear "oh, cool, so probably a few less racists." I guess my take is that I hope you find a place with a floor low enough for you to relax on. One of the main things that appealed to me about Tildes is that the floor is higher.

    6 votes
  14. [4]
    cain
    Link
    This is why I have all politics related tags filtered out. Regardless of what the community wants to happen in regard to civility of the discussion, it quickly becomes a yelling match or an echo...

    This is why I have all politics related tags filtered out.

    Regardless of what the community wants to happen in regard to civility of the discussion, it quickly becomes a yelling match or an echo chamber everywhere I have seen on the internet and the political sections are easily the most toxic part of any website with open discussion like tildes/reddit, granted I haven't seen it as bad here on tildes I'm certain it will happen eventually.

    Sadly it is just not possible to discuss politics/similar 'controvertial' topics on the internet these days no matter how hard you try to create an environment for it, but thankfully it is really easy to not see it here on tildes ever.

    4 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. cain
        Link Parent
        Sadly the 'promoting abject racism.' may be the point at which you stop being calm about it, which is understandable. But for others its simply; And the 90% of threads being fine is just for now...

        It’s just not possible to reply calmly to things like someone promoting abject racism.

        Sadly the 'promoting abject racism.' may be the point at which you stop being calm about it, which is understandable. But for others its simply;

        It’s just not possible to reply calmly to things like someone who has a different opinion than I do

        And the 90% of threads being fine is just for now and it honestly pretty ridiculous for a community of like 5k people that are for the most part individually vetted for invites. Add double that, go public, and that number of civil threads plummets, unless drastic measures are taken, which I don't know what could be done but I'm sure that is something Deimos knows and has at least some plan for.

        For me the policy is to ignore it here on tildes, and based on the threads the last day or two on ~tildes about the exact issue I think I have made the right choice. At least for myself.

        5 votes
    2. [2]
      Amarok
      Link Parent
      Actually you can. Check out /r/neutralpolitics and /r/changemyview on reddit. The thing is, though, they've had to go bonkers using very rigid structures for the discussion to keep it functional....

      Actually you can. Check out /r/neutralpolitics and /r/changemyview on reddit. The thing is, though, they've had to go bonkers using very rigid structures for the discussion to keep it functional. CMV's wiki has all the rules and rationale behind it. It's a ton of work.

      In absence of that kind of effort I think you're right. Almost no one makes the effort. Even those places on reddit won't last with the burnout/turnover.

      6 votes
      1. MangoTiger
        Link Parent
        Those are the exact communities I was hoping Tildes would be able to emulate. Being able to use a whole site that has discussion of that level of quality (not those subs are always amazing), was...

        Those are the exact communities I was hoping Tildes would be able to emulate. Being able to use a whole site that has discussion of that level of quality (not those subs are always amazing), was what made Tildes such a tantalizing idea to me, and why I joined so early. However, without more mod tools and many, many more moderators, I think controversial topics will almost invariably lead to the ugliness we have seen so far. Bringing in more diverse viewpoints would help with this problem, but stricter moderation is the main antidote, in my opinion. I am very hopeful that those topics will be able to be discussed productively at some point, though.

        I also want to remind people that race/gender/politics/etc. aren't the only topics allowed to be discussed on the site. There are plenty of other groups were great discussion can be had, and I am hoping people create 150, or even 50 comment threads about other topics besides purely the above, not they they are not worth discussing, but because a healthy mix makes the site as a whole better and makes us all more well informed.

        5 votes
  15. moriarty
    (edited )
    Link
    And nothing of value was lost. Going over your previous comments, I only see dishonest debating practices, semantic gymnastics and appeals to authority. You do not really make an effort to...

    And nothing of value was lost. Going over your previous comments, I only see dishonest debating practices, semantic gymnastics and appeals to authority. You do not really make an effort to understand your companion's argument and construct pretty shoddy strawmen instead. Once called out on, you hide behind the mother of all lazy cop-outs - "hivemind" and "circlejerk"
    Bye Felicia

    2 votes