It's $35K. The average household income in the United States is about $47K. Affordable is not a word I would choose to use for this vehicle. Sure it's less expensive than many EVs on the market,...
It's $35K.
The average household income in the United States is about $47K.
Affordable is not a word I would choose to use for this vehicle.
Sure it's less expensive than many EVs on the market, but the market is also highly skewed towards luxury cars. Then again, this is also Volvo. That might be the lowest MSRP on any of the cars they are currently offering.
Cars have always been expensive items though. A little under a year’s pay doesn’t seem out of line for a new car. Used ones, of course, get cheaper by about 30% as soon as they’re off the lot.
Cars have always been expensive items though. A little under a year’s pay doesn’t seem out of line for a new car. Used ones, of course, get cheaper by about 30% as soon as they’re off the lot.
Well, they did a little while ago. Right now they get slightly more expensive once they're off the lot ;) No, seriously, for <1 year of ownership, used car prices for a particular model are above...
Used ones, of course, get cheaper by about 30% as soon as they’re off the lot.
Well, they did a little while ago. Right now they get slightly more expensive once they're off the lot ;)
No, seriously, for <1 year of ownership, used car prices for a particular model are above MSRP for popular cars, including all of the japanese economy sedans and even moreso for the very popular japanese crossover SUVs.
I suppose if you put them in the same league as cars that cost $100K+, it's affordable. But in the meanwhile the Bolt which is still on the market is drammatically less expensive and there are ICE...
I suppose if you put them in the same league as cars that cost $100K+, it's affordable. But in the meanwhile the Bolt which is still on the market is drammatically less expensive and there are ICE cars that you can get for only $17K.
Granted, households with that median income are probably much more likely to buy a used car with today's market.
IIRC that's AFTER factoring in the $7k in tax credits for getting one. The $34k price on the Volvo is before the credits, so apples to apples you're looking at a couple grand difference. Yeah, and...
But in the meanwhile the Bolt which is still on the market is drammatically less expensive and there are ICE cars that you can get for only $17K.
IIRC that's AFTER factoring in the $7k in tax credits for getting one. The $34k price on the Volvo is before the credits, so apples to apples you're looking at a couple grand difference.
Granted, households with that median income are probably much more likely to buy a used car with today's market.
Yeah, and I think this is actually good. Cars have much longer usable lifespans now, and if battery overhauls become financially reasonable the other mechanical parts should be very cheap to maintain for a long long time.
This is partly why I get so annoyed by the terrible infotainment systems they put in these things and the poorly considered software suites. That's the part of the car that will age the fastest and, once they stop supporting it, will significantly hamper the usability of the vehicle, potentially even making it unsafe to drive. We need much stricter regulations and standardized APIs to ensure longevity and interoperability on these things.
And there's also no reason for it! People upgrade their smartphones much more regularly than they upgrade their cars. And their phones have all their stuff! Anything that doesn't need to directly interface with the car's telemetry or systems doesn't need to be handled by the car. Just let the phone handle it with the car's own OS being the barebones failover mode for when the phone navigation or drive computer stuff crashes.
That $17K is the figure for ICE cars. IIRC I based it off what the Nissan Versa is going for. I looked up the price on the Bolt and it's $27,495 after a $995 destination fee; the gubmint gives you...
That $17K is the figure for ICE cars. IIRC I based it off what the Nissan Versa is going for. I looked up the price on the Bolt and it's $27,495 after a $995 destination fee; the gubmint gives you credits later.
I agree with you about the terrible infotainment systems, though I don't think that (generally) they make it less safe to drive simply because they are out of date. They make it more dangerous because they make you look at touchscreens, though, for sure.
Time to update this trope, unfortunately. I recently needed to get a new car and it was either pay the cost of a new car to buy a used, older version of the same model with 5-20k miles on it, buy...
Used ones, of course, get cheaper by about 30% as soon as they’re off the lot.
Time to update this trope, unfortunately. I recently needed to get a new car and it was either pay the cost of a new car to buy a used, older version of the same model with 5-20k miles on it, buy an even older model with like 50k-100k miles on it for 25% off the new price, or get put on a list, wait 3 weeks, and buy one brand new. Nothing special here, talking about a Forester. I waited and got a new one. The other options just didn’t make sense.
Used car prices soared during COVID and they still haven’t recovered. I’m sure there’s more at play, but I’m not an insider. In my case, Subarus are popular where I live because of the weather and...
Used car prices soared during COVID and they still haven’t recovered. I’m sure there’s more at play, but I’m not an insider. In my case, Subarus are popular where I live because of the weather and it’s also a mid-range car that more people can generally afford. I was also looking at the RAV4 Hybrid but getting one of those was even harder. Like 6 months out if you wanted a new one (unless you knew someone with power at the dealership), rare and snatched quickly if you wanted a relatively newer used model. I think it’s also inflation. Used car dealerships are run by people who have the same inflationary concerns we all have, so they’re pricing their stock accordingly. It’s just not a fun time to have to buy a car. I basically picked the car that was arriving soonest that wasn’t already spoken for because my old car was having brake problems my mechanic couldn’t fix (the brake computer was having problems). They recommended I take it to the dealership, which was booked out for months. So I had to drive for almost a month on shoddy brakes after spending $700 trying to fix it while I waited for my new car to arrive. Again, not a fun time to have to buy a car.
I think in the US the base Model 3 is pretty affordable, especially after the tax credit at $33k USD. The cheapest new Toyota Camry is $26k before any options.
I think in the US the base Model 3 is pretty affordable, especially after the tax credit at $33k USD. The cheapest new Toyota Camry is $26k before any options.
Is it? What is your source on this? My gut reaction suggests that figure is a bit low. I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious, as a quick read through something like...
The average household income in the United States is about $47K
Is it? What is your source on this? My gut reaction suggests that figure is a bit low. I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious, as a quick read through something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States suggests that value is closer to 70K.
But that's still kind of besides the point. Brand new cars in general have always been a luxury item for many, and just because 100% of people can't buy one doesn't make it unaffordable. I grew up lower middle-class and we never had a brand new car, nor did anyone else in our family for that matter. $35K for an EV puts it in line with many other "regular" cars on the market right now, which are also expensive for many people.
Price is great but I don't like the infotainment system and the minimalist design they got going on. I am sure that helps them make it cheaper, but I can at least control my temperature with a...
Price is great but I don't like the infotainment system and the minimalist design they got going on. I am sure that helps them make it cheaper, but I can at least control my temperature with a physical switch and change other climate related settings with capacitive buttons. Not a big fan of capacitive either, but better than navigating a touchscreen while driving.
Does anyone know why Android Auto never became the standard? The way cars are designed just doesn't work with tech that becomes obsolete in a few years. They should be outsourcing their...
Does anyone know why Android Auto never became the standard? The way cars are designed just doesn't work with tech that becomes obsolete in a few years. They should be outsourcing their infotainment systems.
If functions like the radio and heat could be controlled via USB, people could make aftermarket infotainment systems. Slap something over the original touchscreen with better controls. Aftermarket...
If functions like the radio and heat could be controlled via USB, people could make aftermarket infotainment systems. Slap something over the original touchscreen with better controls.
Aftermarket parts for motorcycles is already a pretty massive industry. Or if there aren't enough users to support that, someone could 3D print a housing that fits around an Android tablet.
Volvo has unveiled its new affordable electric vehicle, the EX30, priced from $34,950 before incentives. The compact EX30 measures around 166 inches long and has a minimalist interior like some Teslas. The EX30 will be offered with two powertrain options, a single motor rear-wheel drive version with an estimated 275 mile range and a dual motor all-wheel drive version with 422 horsepower and a 265 mile range. Volvo's focus on safety is evident with features like a blind spot monitor to prevent "dooring" cyclists. The EX30 aims to have the lowest carbon footprint of any Volvo at under 30 metric tons over 200,000 kilometers.
I really think “compact SUV” is a monicker car manufacturers invented specifically to sell hatchbacks to Americans. This car looks like a lifted VW golf. Not a bad thing per se, but I think it...
I really think “compact SUV” is a monicker car manufacturers invented specifically to sell hatchbacks to Americans. This car looks like a lifted VW golf. Not a bad thing per se, but I think it would look better if it was lower to the ground (probably would get better mileage too).
I like the look of this, and like that it's on the smaller side — there are surprisingly few small EVs available in the US, which is a problem for those of us with smaller garages. A lot of the...
I like the look of this, and like that it's on the smaller side — there are surprisingly few small EVs available in the US, which is a problem for those of us with smaller garages. A lot of the "known good" models like the Ioniq 5 are simply too long.
It's coming a bit too late unfortunately, because I'll probably be leasing an EV of some sort this year if all goes as planned.
Tbh this looks decent but I just am not sure if I trust it to actually last long enough to be worth that price. That's about as much as a Mazda3 turbo and significantly more than a cheaper model...
Tbh this looks decent but I just am not sure if I trust it to actually last long enough to be worth that price. That's about as much as a Mazda3 turbo and significantly more than a cheaper model Mazda3/Civic, or a used Focus which also seems pretty good.
Sure electric is nice, cheaper and better for the environment, but idk if it offsets having to buy an entire new car if this stops running 100,000k miles early. Certainly doesn't make sense economically and I've got no clue environmentally.
Plus as far as being fun to drive goes, idk if I really value the acceleration that electric cars get over the ability to have a manual transmission.
Maybe a bit off topic but I've just been looking at a lot of options for a new car recently, and I'm not at all convinced that electrics are the best option.
The downsides to electric tend to get a bit overblown. I'm driving a Leaf that's over a decade old and has about 160,000 miles on it and it still has about 3/4 of the total capacity with the...
The downsides to electric tend to get a bit overblown. I'm driving a Leaf that's over a decade old and has about 160,000 miles on it and it still has about 3/4 of the total capacity with the original unaltered battery pack.
EVs are much more mechanically simple than an internal combustion engine and there's essentially no transmission in most models (usually they have a sealed fixed gearbox instead), so maintenance is much simpler and there is less that can go wrong with them.
Most EV owners do the majority of their charging at home, where a basic 120V charging kit will give you more than enough power overnight for the average commute. If you're in a country that uses 220/240V power, your basic charging equipment will go even further (assuming your plugs are capable of more than 15A).
Overall, the TCO for EVs can be significantly less than that of a traditional fossil-fueled car. They may be more expensive to purchase initally, but the simplified maintenance and much lower fuel costs will make up for it. Though, naturally, it depends on how much the specific car costs and how much you actually use it. Do be aware that if you are in a very hot or very cold climate the mileage and longevity might be less
I just don't see it, at least for an economy car. A base model Civic is listed at 23 grand, so 12,000 less than this. The break even point on that is about 120,000 miles at $3/gal and 30 mpg, and...
I just don't see it, at least for an economy car. A base model Civic is listed at 23 grand, so 12,000 less than this. The break even point on that is about 120,000 miles at $3/gal and 30 mpg, and that doesn't account for money you pay up front being worth more than money you pay later, or electricity not being literally free.
While the range thing isn't an issue for everyday driving, if I decide to drive somewhere for a vacation or something then it's nice to have the ability to just go anywhere. Especially on short notice flights aren't cheap.
And just because your car hasn't had problems with reliability doesn't mean that reliability isn't a problem, especially with companies that aren't Nissan, since they seem like one of the better electric car manufacturers. My Fiat Abarth is running great after 120k miles, but I'm still not going to get another when it does stop just because I got lucky with this one.
I haven't seen gas at $3/gallon for a very long time, but then again I don't look at gas prices that often. MPG ratings from manufacturers are also based on ideal conditions and perfect drivers,...
I haven't seen gas at $3/gallon for a very long time, but then again I don't look at gas prices that often. MPG ratings from manufacturers are also based on ideal conditions and perfect drivers, so it's not wise to make cost calculations based on them. You're also missing the expense of maintenance.
It's rare to have major issues with travel because fast chargers are becoming more and more common. You have to go to a fairly rural place to have an issue with charging. Sure, charging isn't as fast as gas, but if you're taking a long trip you'll probably want to get up and walk around after sitting in a car for 200 miles anyway. Once again, it's not as big a deal as most people tend to make them. If you really want to drive and don't want to be inconvenienced, renting a gas powered car for a weekend isn't terribly expensive.
I was talking about reliability generally. To be frank, my experience with Nissan overall isn't that great. Between me and my husband we have owned six Nissan cars and nearly all of them had a ton of issues with them. I've actually had a number of problems with my Leaf, though they didn't have anything to do with the drivetrain. The most recent thing I had fixed was the actuator for the electronic parking brake, which was done for free because it was actually within the warranty period for the previous actuator that failed on me. But all the parts I have had fail on me are common between multiple Nissan cars and I wouldn't be surprised to see them on other manufacturers models as well. The problems I have had with every other Nissan car we've ever owned were drivetrain related. I have no clue why my husband likes Nissan so much but my next car will almost certainly not be one of theirs!
Oh I wouldn't say Nissan is anywhere near the top of the table in general, if I'm buying a new IC car it's going to be Toyota, Mazda, or Honda unless I'm getting a very good deal on some used car....
Oh I wouldn't say Nissan is anywhere near the top of the table in general, if I'm buying a new IC car it's going to be Toyota, Mazda, or Honda unless I'm getting a very good deal on some used car. But as far as electrics go they seem pretty good.
And I've never actually mentioned the charging difficulties as a reason I don't think EVs are good. You keep bringing that up, but honestly where I live I don't expect it to be an issue. There's just other areas that don't make sense.
As for the cost I chose 3 and 30 so they would cancel each other out, realistically gas will be a little higher but a brand new compact car will also get above 30 mpg no problem. But for simple math multiplying by 10 and being close is good enough. Sure, maintenance will be an issue, but not that much of an issue, especially if you take care of your car. Someone else posted an article estimating $0.04 saved per mile, which comes out to 300,000 miles before this car is more cost effective than a new Civic.
I'm sure electric cars will get there in the future but they aren't there yet. Maybe in Europe with all the tax incentives it makes sense.
To be fair, I was being a bit harsh on Nissan. They're not really that bad in the scheme of things. I'd still rate them better than Ford. I keep bringing up charging because it's something that...
To be fair, I was being a bit harsh on Nissan. They're not really that bad in the scheme of things. I'd still rate them better than Ford.
I keep bringing up charging because it's something that people commonly take umbrage with, so I figured that I'd resolve those issues before you brought them up (and also leave them there for others who might be interested).
The figure that @NaraVara picked up is the savings in maintenance costs. So by the time you got past your hypothetical 120K miles, you would have saved an additional $4.8K in maintenance costs. Also the rated highway efficiency of that Civic was technically higher than 30... at 31 mpg. Which, as I mentioned previously, is likely higher than you'll actually see.
Alright, let me do the math properly on this, I am actually looking at getting a new car at some point so I might as well do this properly. A Civic says 34 combined MPG on paper. That might not be...
Alright, let me do the math properly on this, I am actually looking at getting a new car at some point so I might as well do this properly.
A Civic says 34 combined MPG on paper. That might not be true for everyone, depending on how you drive it and where you drive it. However, I'm currently getting 34 mpg out of a Fiat Abarth, which is estimated at 28 city/34 highway. So if anything 34 mpg for the Civic is an underestimate for how I would drive it.
Gas around me is about $3.2 right now. This will go up, but my salary in the future is also going to go up, so it balances out.
I'm also not going to use 12,000, but instead 13, since if I am going to get an electric car it'd probably be the Leaf, I just have more confidence in Nissan to build a good car than I do in Volvo.
The Leaf also says it gets 121 MPGe, and while looking up exactly what that means seems difficult, I'll just use it as is for simplicity.
We also have the $0.04/mile maintenance cost.
Doing some math, that is 0.04$/mile + $3.2/34mpg - $3.2/121mpge = 0.1077$/mile saved. Take the inverse and multiply by our $13,000 up front difference that is just over 120,000 miles. So yeah, I do probably trust a Nissan to go that far. If I say it probably won't go over 150k then I'll save $3200 over the lifetime of the cars.
That is better than I was expecting, and I don't think my assumptions are particularly unfair either way, but I don't think its quite enough to convince me to get a Leaf, especially since there's no way a Civic only lasts 150k miles.
MPGe is honestly a really stupid number to publish. They should be publishing the miles per kilowatt-hour which is a much better way to understand your costs. Luckily it’s pretty easy to convert:...
MPGe is honestly a really stupid number to publish. They should be publishing the miles per kilowatt-hour which is a much better way to understand your costs. Luckily it’s pretty easy to convert: simply divide by 33.7. Just plug in your local electric rates to get the actual fuel costs.
(Or you can use the EPA’s counterintuitive KWH per 100 miles, but that just complicates the math. I don’t know why they are so backwards. )
The technology just isn't mature enough yet to be affordable, but it'll get there and ultimately, be cheaper in the long run and less of a pain in the ass. I'm a home mechanic and I relish the day...
The technology just isn't mature enough yet to be affordable, but it'll get there and ultimately, be cheaper in the long run and less of a pain in the ass.
I'm a home mechanic and I relish the day that I can get an affordable, electric minivan or something. My current van, at 231k is great and has cost me a grand total of $5000 or so, including purchase price, since I bought it in 2020; but there's always maintenance to be done with it. I recently did the water pump, because it was failing; I've done the plugs, wires, alternator, AC compressor, dryer and numerous oil changes, not mentioning the suspension, steering refresh, tires and brakes, because those are all things an electric would need as well, but to not have to worry about all the other stuff? Luxury.
Not to mention, all the stuff I've had to dispose of. Sure, oil can be recycled, but coolant gets dumped into kitty litter and thrown in the trash, as that's the known safe way to dispose of it.
We'll get there, eventually and something cheap like this will lead the way. In 5 years, once it's depreciated and you can pick one up for $10k? Plus the market is only set to grow, so we'll see even more and more used options at cheaper and cheaper prices.
If you just want a commuter car, there's actually tons of used Leaf models on the market you can buy now for $10K or less. That's how I got mine! Unfortunately I don't expect advances in...
If you just want a commuter car, there's actually tons of used Leaf models on the market you can buy now for $10K or less. That's how I got mine!
Unfortunately I don't expect advances in technology to make EVs cheap. I've heard things about new battery chemistries and that might help a bit, but that's about it. In reality EVs are as expensive as they are because the manufacturers are not interested in making them affordable. I seriously doubt that GM is losing money by selling the Bolt at 27K, so why isn't there more competition at that approximate price range?
Cheaper, as in, there will be plenty in the used market eventually. As for buying one: I'm not yet. I have a small car and a van (plus project car that I'm working on getting working again), so I...
Cheaper, as in, there will be plenty in the used market eventually. As for buying one: I'm not yet. I have a small car and a van (plus project car that I'm working on getting working again), so I have no need to spend money on a new vehicle currently.
We'll see where things go, but prices will hopefully go back down overall, eventually. I'm not sure if that'll be proliferation of technology or government subsidies or something else. But while prices are up overall, they're still pretty similar to what they were 10+ years ago; I paid $25k for my small car back in 2012, which is equivalent to $33k today, so not all that far off from what this EV costs (assuming you could get it without markups) and this thing is stuffed with more technology and would cost me less in the long run than my 2013 model economy car has cost in the same amount of time.
Edit: I should also say, there's not much competition because the lower the cost of the car, the lower the profit margins. That's why we see $85k trucks and SUVs stuffed with "premium" bullshit, because while car sales are down overall, the margins on these big vehicles make up for all that and it seems that overall, most companies these days would rather sell fewer products at higher margins, than much more at lower.
Oh, of course, the used market makes more sense. Unfortunately, the EVs with longer ranges look like they are holding their value pretty well right now; You don't get the "lose 20% of value when...
Oh, of course, the used market makes more sense. Unfortunately, the EVs with longer ranges look like they are holding their value pretty well right now; You don't get the "lose 20% of value when you drive off the lot" effect like most cars do. But as they become more and more popular I'm sure the extra stock will help bring things down.
There is one issue with EVs that blocks a lot of potential purchasers atm however, and it’s that “do the majority of charging at home” point. There’s a vast amount of people that live in multi...
There is one issue with EVs that blocks a lot of potential purchasers atm however, and it’s that “do the majority of charging at home” point. There’s a vast amount of people that live in multi family buildings with basic outdoor parking and have no ability to install at home charging infrastructure (even a basic 120/220/240V outlet). Until that happens there’s a large chunk of the market that’s basically stuck with fossil fuels.
I hope that government funds are eventually used to incentivize property owners and HOAs to install such infrastructure to speed things up. But I just haven’t really noticed any movement on that front and I worry that this problem is just getting swept under the rug (though if there are some programs starting to do this I’d love to hear about them!)
There are a few states that have laws compelling apartment owners to install charging capabilities if they offer parking, upon request of the renter (though afaik they all say that they can have...
There are a few states that have laws compelling apartment owners to install charging capabilities if they offer parking, upon request of the renter (though afaik they all say that they can have the renter who requests it responsible for the expense). It’s not everywhere though.
Electrics are mechanically much less complex than ICE vehicles. The main wear item that isn’t easily replaceable is the battery, and all manufacturers in the US are required to provide a 10 year...
Electrics are mechanically much less complex than ICE vehicles. The main wear item that isn’t easily replaceable is the battery, and all manufacturers in the US are required to provide a 10 year warranty on those.
It’ll never be better for the environment to buy a whole new car, but if you’re buying a new car an electric is a good move. (Granted, probably not the oversized, overspecced beast models the American auto industry prefers to crank out.)
Ok but that's 12,000 more than a Civic up front, and I don't trust any sort of Volvo to be more reliable than a Civic. Routine maintenance like oil changes and topping up various fluids isn't too...
Ok but that's 12,000 more than a Civic up front, and I don't trust any sort of Volvo to be more reliable than a Civic. Routine maintenance like oil changes and topping up various fluids isn't too hard or expensive. And $12,000 is significant.
Sure, over a long enough time period the electric car probably does come out on top if all you look at is money spent and there's no issues. But money you have to spend now effectively costs more than money you have to spend later.
You have to remember that electric drive trains are basically just one big electric motor. There’s just so much less that can go wrong compared to intricate combustion engines. Companies are...
You have to remember that electric drive trains are basically just one big electric motor. There’s just so much less that can go wrong compared to intricate combustion engines. Companies are stumbling over themselves to attach overcomplicated infotainment systems with dogshit firmware to mitigate against that advantage as much as they can, but that’s true regardless of drive train and even that’s more likely to cause faults on combustion cars. It’s not just topping up the fluids, the reduction in maintenance expenses is significant. The estimates on total cost of ownership differences are 4 cents per mile on average.
So $12,000 up front, divided by $0.04/mile, is 300,000 miles. Which is further than you can realistically expect any car to go. And that's just the break even point on a basic estimate, we're...
So $12,000 up front, divided by $0.04/mile, is 300,000 miles. Which is further than you can realistically expect any car to go. And that's just the break even point on a basic estimate, we're still ignoring things like net present value where it's effectively cheaper to spend $1 in the future than $1 right now.
In other words if you're trying to save money, you're still better off buying a Civic.
Its almost never smart to buy the "first" of anything. The further along the models go the more kinks get worked out. Buying a first generation EV even from a reputable brand like Volvo seems like...
Its almost never smart to buy the "first" of anything. The further along the models go the more kinks get worked out. Buying a first generation EV even from a reputable brand like Volvo seems like a mistake.
It's $35K.
The average household income in the United States is about $47K.
Affordable is not a word I would choose to use for this vehicle.
Sure it's less expensive than many EVs on the market, but the market is also highly skewed towards luxury cars. Then again, this is also Volvo. That might be the lowest MSRP on any of the cars they are currently offering.
Cars have always been expensive items though. A little under a year’s pay doesn’t seem out of line for a new car. Used ones, of course, get cheaper by about 30% as soon as they’re off the lot.
Well, they did a little while ago. Right now they get slightly more expensive once they're off the lot ;)
No, seriously, for <1 year of ownership, used car prices for a particular model are above MSRP for popular cars, including all of the japanese economy sedans and even moreso for the very popular japanese crossover SUVs.
I suppose if you put them in the same league as cars that cost $100K+, it's affordable. But in the meanwhile the Bolt which is still on the market is drammatically less expensive and there are ICE cars that you can get for only $17K.
Granted, households with that median income are probably much more likely to buy a used car with today's market.
IIRC that's AFTER factoring in the $7k in tax credits for getting one. The $34k price on the Volvo is before the credits, so apples to apples you're looking at a couple grand difference.
Yeah, and I think this is actually good. Cars have much longer usable lifespans now, and if battery overhauls become financially reasonable the other mechanical parts should be very cheap to maintain for a long long time.
This is partly why I get so annoyed by the terrible infotainment systems they put in these things and the poorly considered software suites. That's the part of the car that will age the fastest and, once they stop supporting it, will significantly hamper the usability of the vehicle, potentially even making it unsafe to drive. We need much stricter regulations and standardized APIs to ensure longevity and interoperability on these things.
And there's also no reason for it! People upgrade their smartphones much more regularly than they upgrade their cars. And their phones have all their stuff! Anything that doesn't need to directly interface with the car's telemetry or systems doesn't need to be handled by the car. Just let the phone handle it with the car's own OS being the barebones failover mode for when the phone navigation or drive computer stuff crashes.
The Volvo isn't assembled in North America so it would not qualify for the tax credit.
That $17K is the figure for ICE cars. IIRC I based it off what the Nissan Versa is going for. I looked up the price on the Bolt and it's $27,495 after a $995 destination fee; the gubmint gives you credits later.
I agree with you about the terrible infotainment systems, though I don't think that (generally) they make it less safe to drive simply because they are out of date. They make it more dangerous because they make you look at touchscreens, though, for sure.
Time to update this trope, unfortunately. I recently needed to get a new car and it was either pay the cost of a new car to buy a used, older version of the same model with 5-20k miles on it, buy an even older model with like 50k-100k miles on it for 25% off the new price, or get put on a list, wait 3 weeks, and buy one brand new. Nothing special here, talking about a Forester. I waited and got a new one. The other options just didn’t make sense.
Is this just supply constraint? What's causing this?
Used car prices soared during COVID and they still haven’t recovered. I’m sure there’s more at play, but I’m not an insider. In my case, Subarus are popular where I live because of the weather and it’s also a mid-range car that more people can generally afford. I was also looking at the RAV4 Hybrid but getting one of those was even harder. Like 6 months out if you wanted a new one (unless you knew someone with power at the dealership), rare and snatched quickly if you wanted a relatively newer used model. I think it’s also inflation. Used car dealerships are run by people who have the same inflationary concerns we all have, so they’re pricing their stock accordingly. It’s just not a fun time to have to buy a car. I basically picked the car that was arriving soonest that wasn’t already spoken for because my old car was having brake problems my mechanic couldn’t fix (the brake computer was having problems). They recommended I take it to the dealership, which was booked out for months. So I had to drive for almost a month on shoddy brakes after spending $700 trying to fix it while I waited for my new car to arrive. Again, not a fun time to have to buy a car.
By their metric, a Tesla is affordable.
I think in the US the base Model 3 is pretty affordable, especially after the tax credit at $33k USD. The cheapest new Toyota Camry is $26k before any options.
Is it? What is your source on this? My gut reaction suggests that figure is a bit low. I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious, as a quick read through something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States suggests that value is closer to 70K.
But that's still kind of besides the point. Brand new cars in general have always been a luxury item for many, and just because 100% of people can't buy one doesn't make it unaffordable. I grew up lower middle-class and we never had a brand new car, nor did anyone else in our family for that matter. $35K for an EV puts it in line with many other "regular" cars on the market right now, which are also expensive for many people.
That was a quick google search. They cited census data but I didn’t check it personally.
Price is great but I don't like the infotainment system and the minimalist design they got going on. I am sure that helps them make it cheaper, but I can at least control my temperature with a physical switch and change other climate related settings with capacitive buttons. Not a big fan of capacitive either, but better than navigating a touchscreen while driving.
I really wish this vehicle had buttons.
Does anyone know why Android Auto never became the standard? The way cars are designed just doesn't work with tech that becomes obsolete in a few years. They should be outsourcing their infotainment systems.
Honestly, because it's not very good for a variety of technical, administrative, and intentional reasons
They should really be providing a USB (HID + some car-specific device class) and HDMI hookup so future devices can trivially work with them.
If functions like the radio and heat could be controlled via USB, people could make aftermarket infotainment systems. Slap something over the original touchscreen with better controls.
Aftermarket parts for motorcycles is already a pretty massive industry. Or if there aren't enough users to support that, someone could 3D print a housing that fits around an Android tablet.
I saw this recently, looks like it's a start. https://built-in.google/cars/
I know a lot of people were miffed (and rightfully so!) when Chevy discontinued the Bolt EUV. But this looks like a promising option!
Universal Summarizer summary:
I really think “compact SUV” is a monicker car manufacturers invented specifically to sell hatchbacks to Americans. This car looks like a lifted VW golf. Not a bad thing per se, but I think it would look better if it was lower to the ground (probably would get better mileage too).
I like the look of this, and like that it's on the smaller side — there are surprisingly few small EVs available in the US, which is a problem for those of us with smaller garages. A lot of the "known good" models like the Ioniq 5 are simply too long.
It's coming a bit too late unfortunately, because I'll probably be leasing an EV of some sort this year if all goes as planned.
Tbh this looks decent but I just am not sure if I trust it to actually last long enough to be worth that price. That's about as much as a Mazda3 turbo and significantly more than a cheaper model Mazda3/Civic, or a used Focus which also seems pretty good.
Sure electric is nice, cheaper and better for the environment, but idk if it offsets having to buy an entire new car if this stops running 100,000k miles early. Certainly doesn't make sense economically and I've got no clue environmentally.
Plus as far as being fun to drive goes, idk if I really value the acceleration that electric cars get over the ability to have a manual transmission.
Maybe a bit off topic but I've just been looking at a lot of options for a new car recently, and I'm not at all convinced that electrics are the best option.
The downsides to electric tend to get a bit overblown. I'm driving a Leaf that's over a decade old and has about 160,000 miles on it and it still has about 3/4 of the total capacity with the original unaltered battery pack.
EVs are much more mechanically simple than an internal combustion engine and there's essentially no transmission in most models (usually they have a sealed fixed gearbox instead), so maintenance is much simpler and there is less that can go wrong with them.
Most EV owners do the majority of their charging at home, where a basic 120V charging kit will give you more than enough power overnight for the average commute. If you're in a country that uses 220/240V power, your basic charging equipment will go even further (assuming your plugs are capable of more than 15A).
Overall, the TCO for EVs can be significantly less than that of a traditional fossil-fueled car. They may be more expensive to purchase initally, but the simplified maintenance and much lower fuel costs will make up for it. Though, naturally, it depends on how much the specific car costs and how much you actually use it. Do be aware that if you are in a very hot or very cold climate the mileage and longevity might be less
I just don't see it, at least for an economy car. A base model Civic is listed at 23 grand, so 12,000 less than this. The break even point on that is about 120,000 miles at $3/gal and 30 mpg, and that doesn't account for money you pay up front being worth more than money you pay later, or electricity not being literally free.
While the range thing isn't an issue for everyday driving, if I decide to drive somewhere for a vacation or something then it's nice to have the ability to just go anywhere. Especially on short notice flights aren't cheap.
And just because your car hasn't had problems with reliability doesn't mean that reliability isn't a problem, especially with companies that aren't Nissan, since they seem like one of the better electric car manufacturers. My Fiat Abarth is running great after 120k miles, but I'm still not going to get another when it does stop just because I got lucky with this one.
I haven't seen gas at $3/gallon for a very long time, but then again I don't look at gas prices that often. MPG ratings from manufacturers are also based on ideal conditions and perfect drivers, so it's not wise to make cost calculations based on them. You're also missing the expense of maintenance.
It's rare to have major issues with travel because fast chargers are becoming more and more common. You have to go to a fairly rural place to have an issue with charging. Sure, charging isn't as fast as gas, but if you're taking a long trip you'll probably want to get up and walk around after sitting in a car for 200 miles anyway. Once again, it's not as big a deal as most people tend to make them. If you really want to drive and don't want to be inconvenienced, renting a gas powered car for a weekend isn't terribly expensive.
I was talking about reliability generally. To be frank, my experience with Nissan overall isn't that great. Between me and my husband we have owned six Nissan cars and nearly all of them had a ton of issues with them. I've actually had a number of problems with my Leaf, though they didn't have anything to do with the drivetrain. The most recent thing I had fixed was the actuator for the electronic parking brake, which was done for free because it was actually within the warranty period for the previous actuator that failed on me. But all the parts I have had fail on me are common between multiple Nissan cars and I wouldn't be surprised to see them on other manufacturers models as well. The problems I have had with every other Nissan car we've ever owned were drivetrain related. I have no clue why my husband likes Nissan so much but my next car will almost certainly not be one of theirs!
Oh I wouldn't say Nissan is anywhere near the top of the table in general, if I'm buying a new IC car it's going to be Toyota, Mazda, or Honda unless I'm getting a very good deal on some used car. But as far as electrics go they seem pretty good.
And I've never actually mentioned the charging difficulties as a reason I don't think EVs are good. You keep bringing that up, but honestly where I live I don't expect it to be an issue. There's just other areas that don't make sense.
As for the cost I chose 3 and 30 so they would cancel each other out, realistically gas will be a little higher but a brand new compact car will also get above 30 mpg no problem. But for simple math multiplying by 10 and being close is good enough. Sure, maintenance will be an issue, but not that much of an issue, especially if you take care of your car. Someone else posted an article estimating $0.04 saved per mile, which comes out to 300,000 miles before this car is more cost effective than a new Civic.
I'm sure electric cars will get there in the future but they aren't there yet. Maybe in Europe with all the tax incentives it makes sense.
To be fair, I was being a bit harsh on Nissan. They're not really that bad in the scheme of things. I'd still rate them better than Ford.
I keep bringing up charging because it's something that people commonly take umbrage with, so I figured that I'd resolve those issues before you brought them up (and also leave them there for others who might be interested).
The figure that @NaraVara picked up is the savings in maintenance costs. So by the time you got past your hypothetical 120K miles, you would have saved an additional $4.8K in maintenance costs. Also the rated highway efficiency of that Civic was technically higher than 30... at 31 mpg. Which, as I mentioned previously, is likely higher than you'll actually see.
Alright, let me do the math properly on this, I am actually looking at getting a new car at some point so I might as well do this properly.
A Civic says 34 combined MPG on paper. That might not be true for everyone, depending on how you drive it and where you drive it. However, I'm currently getting 34 mpg out of a Fiat Abarth, which is estimated at 28 city/34 highway. So if anything 34 mpg for the Civic is an underestimate for how I would drive it.
Gas around me is about $3.2 right now. This will go up, but my salary in the future is also going to go up, so it balances out.
I'm also not going to use 12,000, but instead 13, since if I am going to get an electric car it'd probably be the Leaf, I just have more confidence in Nissan to build a good car than I do in Volvo.
The Leaf also says it gets 121 MPGe, and while looking up exactly what that means seems difficult, I'll just use it as is for simplicity.
We also have the $0.04/mile maintenance cost.
Doing some math, that is 0.04$/mile + $3.2/34mpg - $3.2/121mpge = 0.1077$/mile saved. Take the inverse and multiply by our $13,000 up front difference that is just over 120,000 miles. So yeah, I do probably trust a Nissan to go that far. If I say it probably won't go over 150k then I'll save $3200 over the lifetime of the cars.
That is better than I was expecting, and I don't think my assumptions are particularly unfair either way, but I don't think its quite enough to convince me to get a Leaf, especially since there's no way a Civic only lasts 150k miles.
MPGe is honestly a really stupid number to publish. They should be publishing the miles per kilowatt-hour which is a much better way to understand your costs. Luckily it’s pretty easy to convert: simply divide by 33.7. Just plug in your local electric rates to get the actual fuel costs.
(Or you can use the EPA’s counterintuitive KWH per 100 miles, but that just complicates the math. I don’t know why they are so backwards. )
The technology just isn't mature enough yet to be affordable, but it'll get there and ultimately, be cheaper in the long run and less of a pain in the ass.
I'm a home mechanic and I relish the day that I can get an affordable, electric minivan or something. My current van, at 231k is great and has cost me a grand total of $5000 or so, including purchase price, since I bought it in 2020; but there's always maintenance to be done with it. I recently did the water pump, because it was failing; I've done the plugs, wires, alternator, AC compressor, dryer and numerous oil changes, not mentioning the suspension, steering refresh, tires and brakes, because those are all things an electric would need as well, but to not have to worry about all the other stuff? Luxury.
Not to mention, all the stuff I've had to dispose of. Sure, oil can be recycled, but coolant gets dumped into kitty litter and thrown in the trash, as that's the known safe way to dispose of it.
We'll get there, eventually and something cheap like this will lead the way. In 5 years, once it's depreciated and you can pick one up for $10k? Plus the market is only set to grow, so we'll see even more and more used options at cheaper and cheaper prices.
If you just want a commuter car, there's actually tons of used Leaf models on the market you can buy now for $10K or less. That's how I got mine!
Unfortunately I don't expect advances in technology to make EVs cheap. I've heard things about new battery chemistries and that might help a bit, but that's about it. In reality EVs are as expensive as they are because the manufacturers are not interested in making them affordable. I seriously doubt that GM is losing money by selling the Bolt at 27K, so why isn't there more competition at that approximate price range?
Cheaper, as in, there will be plenty in the used market eventually. As for buying one: I'm not yet. I have a small car and a van (plus project car that I'm working on getting working again), so I have no need to spend money on a new vehicle currently.
We'll see where things go, but prices will hopefully go back down overall, eventually. I'm not sure if that'll be proliferation of technology or government subsidies or something else. But while prices are up overall, they're still pretty similar to what they were 10+ years ago; I paid $25k for my small car back in 2012, which is equivalent to $33k today, so not all that far off from what this EV costs (assuming you could get it without markups) and this thing is stuffed with more technology and would cost me less in the long run than my 2013 model economy car has cost in the same amount of time.
Edit: I should also say, there's not much competition because the lower the cost of the car, the lower the profit margins. That's why we see $85k trucks and SUVs stuffed with "premium" bullshit, because while car sales are down overall, the margins on these big vehicles make up for all that and it seems that overall, most companies these days would rather sell fewer products at higher margins, than much more at lower.
Oh, of course, the used market makes more sense. Unfortunately, the EVs with longer ranges look like they are holding their value pretty well right now; You don't get the "lose 20% of value when you drive off the lot" effect like most cars do. But as they become more and more popular I'm sure the extra stock will help bring things down.
There is one issue with EVs that blocks a lot of potential purchasers atm however, and it’s that “do the majority of charging at home” point. There’s a vast amount of people that live in multi family buildings with basic outdoor parking and have no ability to install at home charging infrastructure (even a basic 120/220/240V outlet). Until that happens there’s a large chunk of the market that’s basically stuck with fossil fuels.
I hope that government funds are eventually used to incentivize property owners and HOAs to install such infrastructure to speed things up. But I just haven’t really noticed any movement on that front and I worry that this problem is just getting swept under the rug (though if there are some programs starting to do this I’d love to hear about them!)
There are a few states that have laws compelling apartment owners to install charging capabilities if they offer parking, upon request of the renter (though afaik they all say that they can have the renter who requests it responsible for the expense). It’s not everywhere though.
Electrics are mechanically much less complex than ICE vehicles. The main wear item that isn’t easily replaceable is the battery, and all manufacturers in the US are required to provide a 10 year warranty on those.
It’ll never be better for the environment to buy a whole new car, but if you’re buying a new car an electric is a good move. (Granted, probably not the oversized, overspecced beast models the American auto industry prefers to crank out.)
Ok but that's 12,000 more than a Civic up front, and I don't trust any sort of Volvo to be more reliable than a Civic. Routine maintenance like oil changes and topping up various fluids isn't too hard or expensive. And $12,000 is significant.
Sure, over a long enough time period the electric car probably does come out on top if all you look at is money spent and there's no issues. But money you have to spend now effectively costs more than money you have to spend later.
You have to remember that electric drive trains are basically just one big electric motor. There’s just so much less that can go wrong compared to intricate combustion engines. Companies are stumbling over themselves to attach overcomplicated infotainment systems with dogshit firmware to mitigate against that advantage as much as they can, but that’s true regardless of drive train and even that’s more likely to cause faults on combustion cars. It’s not just topping up the fluids, the reduction in maintenance expenses is significant. The estimates on total cost of ownership differences are 4 cents per mile on average.
So $12,000 up front, divided by $0.04/mile, is 300,000 miles. Which is further than you can realistically expect any car to go. And that's just the break even point on a basic estimate, we're still ignoring things like net present value where it's effectively cheaper to spend $1 in the future than $1 right now.
In other words if you're trying to save money, you're still better off buying a Civic.
Its almost never smart to buy the "first" of anything. The further along the models go the more kinks get worked out. Buying a first generation EV even from a reputable brand like Volvo seems like a mistake.
I'm still waiting for a decent EV estate down under!