These attempts at innovation are frankly pointless. Sportscars have gullwing/scissor doors precisely because they sit close to the floor, and this is one way of making access slightly easier....
These attempts at innovation are frankly pointless. Sportscars have gullwing/scissor doors precisely because they sit close to the floor, and this is one way of making access slightly easier.
However, this is a SUV/crossover, which sits fairly high. There is no point in having fancy doors, other than looks, and the "emergency procedure" for the back doors looks damn near impossible to perform in a true emergency.
Couple this with the weird procedure for shifting into reverse (apparently, they're using touchscreen controls now, which is easily worse than all the shifting mechanisms I've ever seen in my life, including knobs), and a regular car driver would get easily confused.
Then you have the yoke as a steering wheel replacement, which is frankly ridiculous. It's even worse than the Austin Allegro's square steering wheel in every single way. The reason F1/GT3/WEC cars have steering wheels that look like they do is precisely because they have incredibly short steering racks, which mean they rotate much less lock to lock.
And of course, the massive tablet that replaces every single control. Although this is done in plenty of modern cars, prompting Euro NCAP to step in and say "bring back physical controls", Tesla takes it even further.
I never thought we'd have to regulate cabin controls, but this is getting ridiculous. Cars gravitated towards round steering wheels, gear levers and pedals the way they did precisely because of years of evolution in ergonomics, and this has proven time and time again to be the superior design. Senseless innovation is, well, senseless.
Could be wrong but I believe that one of the reasons why automakers are gravitating towards tablet-centric designs is because it’s cheaper and simplifies manufacturing, since feature differences...
Could be wrong but I believe that one of the reasons why automakers are gravitating towards tablet-centric designs is because it’s cheaper and simplifies manufacturing, since feature differences between trims are surfaced in software only with no physical differences in the dash or steering wheel, allowing them to use the same set of parts across the whole lineup.
Additionally, you can redesign the UI much more easily than you can move knobs on the dashboard. So, if you want to dramatically change the layout of the dashboard, that sets back production by...
Additionally, you can redesign the UI much more easily than you can move knobs on the dashboard. So, if you want to dramatically change the layout of the dashboard, that sets back production by weeks instead of months. Faster design time makes life easier in manufacturing.
I wonder if some middleground couldn’t be found here, with buttons built from some kind of small, high contrast display reminiscent of e-ink that’s designed to have its image updated extremely...
I wonder if some middleground couldn’t be found here, with buttons built from some kind of small, high contrast display reminiscent of e-ink that’s designed to have its image updated extremely infrequently and requires no power to retain an image. It wouldn’t eliminate physical trim differences entirely, but it would allow for buttons to be remapped as needed by both the manufacturer and user with the button’s iconography updating accordingly.
We've had middle ground for a long time. I drive a 2019 genesis. It has a nice touchscreen, but the air conditioner is controlled with knobs. The infotainment systems has knobs. It has a shifter...
We've had middle ground for a long time. I drive a 2019 genesis. It has a nice touchscreen, but the air conditioner is controlled with knobs. The infotainment systems has knobs. It has a shifter on the center console, where you'd expect it to be.
It has stalks for the signals, wipers, and cruise control. The seat controls are physically buttons on the left side of the drivers seat.
The mirrors and doors are controlled with a pad on the left door
I see no reason to break with convention unless there's a very very compelling reason to do so.
Someone who sits in my car shouldn't need a tutorial on how to use it.
I'd consider putting any of those functions onto a touchscreen to be a massive downgrade. I'd be giving up features in order to save the manufacturer money. It's not a premium option I'd expect to see in an expensive luxury car like a Tesla.
I don't know why people still act like touchscreen = premium and expensive. You can get large touchscreens nowadays for less than 50 bucks. Thats likely cheaper than 3 of the knobs on my car.
I don’t disagree, but I was using my earlier post which speculated that adoption of touchscreens by automakers was being motivated primarily by reduced cost and streamlined manufacturing as a...
I don’t disagree, but I was using my earlier post which speculated that adoption of touchscreens by automakers was being motivated primarily by reduced cost and streamlined manufacturing as a springboard. The middleground being spoken of was one where most controls are physical, yet physical differences between trims in the interior are still minimal or nonexistent, resulting in cost and manufacturing improvements similar to those gained by building everything around a touchscreen.
That'd be pretty cool. I wonder if you can make e-ink pigments with a glow in the good glow in the dark powder. Then you'd have a glow in the dark e-ink display which would still be lit if you...
That'd be pretty cool. I wonder if you can make e-ink pigments with a glow in the good glow in the dark powder. Then you'd have a glow in the dark e-ink display which would still be lit if you lost power.
When very wealthy people have passion projects, you get some wierd results. Elon is insulated from criticism or feedback by his wealth but I don't know why so many people trust these designs.
When very wealthy people have passion projects, you get some wierd results. Elon is insulated from criticism or feedback by his wealth but I don't know why so many people trust these designs.
It's crazy to try to replicate f1 features in regular cars for aesthetic reasons. Formula 1 cars are notoriously some of the most difficult to control land vehicles to ever be built. They're only...
It's crazy to try to replicate f1 features in regular cars for aesthetic reasons.
Formula 1 cars are notoriously some of the most difficult to control land vehicles to ever be built. They're only driven by people who have been driving race cars since they were in single digit ages, and who devote the majority of their waking lives to being the best drivers on earth.
The average driver wouldn't be able to take one around the block without spinning out or (likely) worse. Their yokes are custom built for each driver and notoriously complicated and uncomfortable because they have to be to fit into the absolutely tiny cockpit.
I really wish car manufacturers, and Tesla especially would stop doing things because of how cool they seem or le epic meme. That kind of decision making process when designing a vehicle that weighs over a ton, capable of insane speeds should be literally criminal.
I don't get the hate? Yes, it's different, but no one forces you or anyone else to buy a Tesla. The Falcon wing doors do actually offer practicality. They can open in tight places a traditional...
I don't get the hate? Yes, it's different, but no one forces you or anyone else to buy a Tesla.
The Falcon wing doors do actually offer practicality. They can open in tight places a traditional door cannot and create a wider opening which was handy for my Elderly father to get in and out of.
For the story, we don't know if she was driving a Tesla with or without a stock. Sure, having the ability to shift on the screen is not anything I want, but I also don't own a new Model S or X. And the point is moot if she was using a stock to shift that is no different from various other cars.
This is tragic and could have happened to anyone, but to blame it on Tesla is fascinating. Tesla got a lot of hate before Elon went full Nazi and he deserves all the hate possible, but this really isn't an issue with Tesla's.
What? Minivans solved this problem by having sliding doors. And those can actually open and shut without worrying about clearance height above you or present difficulties getting out in a rollover.
The Falcon wing doors do actually offer practicality. They can open in tight places a traditional door cannot and create a wider opening which was handy for my Elderly father to get in and out of.
What?
Minivans solved this problem by having sliding doors. And those can actually open and shut without worrying about clearance height above you or present difficulties getting out in a rollover.
Minivan doors are great and any car, whose form-factor permits, should have them. Suicide doors too honestly. We have enough smart sensing frippery in our cars now that the risk of it opening...
Minivan doors are great and any car, whose form-factor permits, should have them.
Suicide doors too honestly. We have enough smart sensing frippery in our cars now that the risk of it opening while driving are nil.
I thought suicide doors were called that because the front door had to be open in order to open the back door? Not just that they opened backwards. Am I mistaken?
I thought suicide doors were called that because the front door had to be open in order to open the back door? Not just that they opened backwards. Am I mistaken?
No they were called that because if the back door opened even a tiny bit while the car was moving the air resistance would cause it to swing all the way open, and you can’t close it without...
No they were called that because if the back door opened even a tiny bit while the car was moving the air resistance would cause it to swing all the way open, and you can’t close it without needing to reach out. Back then cars didn’t even always have seatbelts and the seats were basically vinyl benches so people could roll out when that happened. The name is a bit of gallows humor, like calling your motorcycle license an “organ donor card.”
What you described is the safety feature they added in so that failure mode doesn’t happen.
I thought it’s because if they open at high speed, they act as a giant air scoop and can kill unbelted passengers by throwing them from the vehicle. Regular doors are just forced shut by the...
I thought it’s because if they open at high speed, they act as a giant air scoop and can kill unbelted passengers by throwing them from the vehicle. Regular doors are just forced shut by the airflow, making them safer.
I honestly didn't care for gull wing doors until I heard the reasoning on why they were put on the Seven; people said to the guy who built it that he couldn't, so he did. :P I actually do like...
I honestly didn't care for gull wing doors until I heard the reasoning on why they were put on the Seven; people said to the guy who built it that he couldn't, so he did. :P
I actually do like sliding panel doors, but my experience with 15 year old ones built in the 80s and the difficulty of moving them would make me reluctant to buy a car with them if I could avoid them.
So I think the story is getting traction is because of the victim reported going into reverse by accident and Tesla infamously got rid of the steering stalk in some models. BUT there are several...
So I think the story is getting traction is because of the victim reported going into reverse by accident and Tesla infamously got rid of the steering stalk in some models. BUT there are several other issues going on here.
People have been shifting into drive or reverse accidentally for as long as people have been driving, way before teslas were a thing. Do the new teslas increase accidental gear shifting? We don’t know, it’s worth a look, but it certainly didn’t create the problem.
The victim drove into a body of water deep enough to submerge the car. She was unable to open the door to escape. As I understand it, this would have been an issue with almost any vehicle. People only have a few moments to open the doors before the water pressure increases beyond the ability to open the door.
The victim lived in a remote gated residence estate. The accident happened at night time and it was very dark. There is 1 rescue crew tasked with covering a very large area and it took a while for help to arrive.
When helped arrived, the crew was unsure about how to proceed with the rescue and there was a fear of getting electrocuted by the car. The high voltage system is designed in such a way to prevent being a hazard but if the crew isn’t trained in managing electric vehicles, it’ll slow down the effort .
This story prompted me to look into emergency window breaking devices, which could be a life saver in these situations. The problem however, is that they don’t work with laminated windows (just tempered). And guess which car company has moved to laminated windows in the front side windows recently? Yup. Tesla. In their defense, they are generally considered safer and can still be removed by rescue crews but those small window breaking devices won’t shatter the window. Teslas still have tempered windows in the rear.
Had she driven into a lake in a more populated area with better trained rescue crews, she would have probably walked away and bought a new Tesla.
Just to be pedantic, I've seen people choose to buy different brands of cars for less, so i'd say money is on them not getting a new tesla if they felt it was the car's fault they were in...
Just to be pedantic, I've seen people choose to buy different brands of cars for less, so i'd say money is on them not getting a new tesla if they felt it was the car's fault they were in reverse(true or not).
imo this makes the door issues with the Tesla more potentially problematic in a situation like this. If you only have a few moments to open the door before it becomes impossible, any property of...
People only have a few moments to open the doors before the water pressure increases beyond the ability to open the door.
imo this makes the door issues with the Tesla more potentially problematic in a situation like this. If you only have a few moments to open the door before it becomes impossible, any property of the door that causes undue delay in such a circumstance is a problem. The Tesla's unintuitive and convoluted doors could indeed take so much longer that someone would fail to escape their car who would have if their car had a conventional door (even if that's unlikely to be the case this time).
All great points and very true. My understanding is that the laminated glass takes more effort to break but still eventually would and I still carry a window breaker ever since that one...
All great points and very true. My understanding is that the laminated glass takes more effort to break but still eventually would and I still carry a window breaker ever since that one Mythbusters episode.
Most testing i've seen indicates you're not breaking out laminated glass without serious effort. A glass breaker might help, but then you're probably using your entire body and kicking as hard as...
Most testing i've seen indicates you're not breaking out laminated glass without serious effort. A glass breaker might help, but then you're probably using your entire body and kicking as hard as you can, and even then if you're in any way small, frail, weak, you're probably not going to succeed.
Still not a bad thing to have in the car, but safety crews basically recommend a saw for getting through it.
In the episode where they try the Myth that once the car has filled with water and equalized you can open the door, Jamie talks about how he always has a window popper in his car in case of such...
In the episode where they try the Myth that once the car has filled with water and equalized you can open the door, Jamie talks about how he always has a window popper in his car in case of such an emergency.
Angela Chao, McConnell’s sister-in-law, had a blood alcohol level 3 times above legal limit in fatal accident, police say (NBC News) It’s often the case that multiple things have to go wrong to...
Knowing this, imagine if she were driving on a public road and struck someone. Someone else might have died, and because she's rich, she would have gotten off because money talks. I have very...
Knowing this, imagine if she were driving on a public road and struck someone. Someone else might have died, and because she's rich, she would have gotten off because money talks.
I have very little sympathy for drunk or even slightly buzzed drivers. My best friend's cousin was killed by a drunk driver.
I am also incredibly unsurprised by this outcome - but Teslas are still not cars I want to be in for safety reasons.
Does anyone remember the 1984 Audi 5000 unintended acceleration? I finally bought a rebadged 100 in 1990 for a huge discount. What a nice car. I had been driving standard and automatic cars for...
Does anyone remember the 1984 Audi 5000 unintended acceleration? I finally bought a rebadged 100 in 1990 for a huge discount. What a nice car. I had been driving standard and automatic cars for years by then and it was the 8th car I had actively driven. On top of that I drove dozens of rentals each year as I traveled a lot. Point is I knew my way around cars and could adjust instantly to most interiors. So the first time I sat in the 100 I noticed something odd. The steering wheel was perceptibly to the right of center of any car I had driven. This was due to the front-wheel drive, aerodynamic design and placement of engine and transmission that shifted the location of the steering column. No big deal? Actually it was, because even a 2-3 centimeter difference meant my right foot occasionally missed the brake pedal almost landing on the accelerator. I never found anyone mention that in any of the articles but it was very clear to me especially in the early days of driving it.
Can someone please explain what exactly is weird with reverse on Tesla? (Do not have Tesla, have another car with automatic transmission). Upd: looks like they combined control of autopilot...
Can someone please explain what exactly is weird with reverse on Tesla? (Do not have Tesla, have another car with automatic transmission).
On some teslas, there’s a stalk that sticks out of the steering wheel that you use to select direction. Push down for forward and Push up is Reverse. There a button at the end for Park. On other...
On some teslas, there’s a stalk that sticks out of the steering wheel that you use to select direction. Push down for forward and Push up is Reverse. There a button at the end for Park.
On other teslas (like the model X involved in the accident) they got rid of the stalk and you have to use the touchscreen to select direction. I’ve actually never tried it, but I imagine you slide your finger up or down.
With regards to autopilot, you push the stalk down twice to engage. I don’t know how it works with the touchscreen variant.
These attempts at innovation are frankly pointless. Sportscars have gullwing/scissor doors precisely because they sit close to the floor, and this is one way of making access slightly easier.
However, this is a SUV/crossover, which sits fairly high. There is no point in having fancy doors, other than looks, and the "emergency procedure" for the back doors looks damn near impossible to perform in a true emergency.
Couple this with the weird procedure for shifting into reverse (apparently, they're using touchscreen controls now, which is easily worse than all the shifting mechanisms I've ever seen in my life, including knobs), and a regular car driver would get easily confused.
Then you have the yoke as a steering wheel replacement, which is frankly ridiculous. It's even worse than the Austin Allegro's square steering wheel in every single way. The reason F1/GT3/WEC cars have steering wheels that look like they do is precisely because they have incredibly short steering racks, which mean they rotate much less lock to lock.
And of course, the massive tablet that replaces every single control. Although this is done in plenty of modern cars, prompting Euro NCAP to step in and say "bring back physical controls", Tesla takes it even further.
I never thought we'd have to regulate cabin controls, but this is getting ridiculous. Cars gravitated towards round steering wheels, gear levers and pedals the way they did precisely because of years of evolution in ergonomics, and this has proven time and time again to be the superior design. Senseless innovation is, well, senseless.
Could be wrong but I believe that one of the reasons why automakers are gravitating towards tablet-centric designs is because it’s cheaper and simplifies manufacturing, since feature differences between trims are surfaced in software only with no physical differences in the dash or steering wheel, allowing them to use the same set of parts across the whole lineup.
Additionally, you can redesign the UI much more easily than you can move knobs on the dashboard. So, if you want to dramatically change the layout of the dashboard, that sets back production by weeks instead of months. Faster design time makes life easier in manufacturing.
I wonder if some middleground couldn’t be found here, with buttons built from some kind of small, high contrast display reminiscent of e-ink that’s designed to have its image updated extremely infrequently and requires no power to retain an image. It wouldn’t eliminate physical trim differences entirely, but it would allow for buttons to be remapped as needed by both the manufacturer and user with the button’s iconography updating accordingly.
We've had middle ground for a long time. I drive a 2019 genesis. It has a nice touchscreen, but the air conditioner is controlled with knobs. The infotainment systems has knobs. It has a shifter on the center console, where you'd expect it to be.
It has stalks for the signals, wipers, and cruise control. The seat controls are physically buttons on the left side of the drivers seat.
The mirrors and doors are controlled with a pad on the left door
I see no reason to break with convention unless there's a very very compelling reason to do so.
Someone who sits in my car shouldn't need a tutorial on how to use it.
I'd consider putting any of those functions onto a touchscreen to be a massive downgrade. I'd be giving up features in order to save the manufacturer money. It's not a premium option I'd expect to see in an expensive luxury car like a Tesla.
I don't know why people still act like touchscreen = premium and expensive. You can get large touchscreens nowadays for less than 50 bucks. Thats likely cheaper than 3 of the knobs on my car.
I don’t disagree, but I was using my earlier post which speculated that adoption of touchscreens by automakers was being motivated primarily by reduced cost and streamlined manufacturing as a springboard. The middleground being spoken of was one where most controls are physical, yet physical differences between trims in the interior are still minimal or nonexistent, resulting in cost and manufacturing improvements similar to those gained by building everything around a touchscreen.
That'd be pretty cool. I wonder if you can make e-ink pigments with a glow in the good glow in the dark powder. Then you'd have a glow in the dark e-ink display which would still be lit if you lost power.
When very wealthy people have passion projects, you get some wierd results. Elon is insulated from criticism or feedback by his wealth but I don't know why so many people trust these designs.
It's crazy to try to replicate f1 features in regular cars for aesthetic reasons.
Formula 1 cars are notoriously some of the most difficult to control land vehicles to ever be built. They're only driven by people who have been driving race cars since they were in single digit ages, and who devote the majority of their waking lives to being the best drivers on earth.
The average driver wouldn't be able to take one around the block without spinning out or (likely) worse. Their yokes are custom built for each driver and notoriously complicated and uncomfortable because they have to be to fit into the absolutely tiny cockpit.
I really wish car manufacturers, and Tesla especially would stop doing things because of how cool they seem or le epic meme. That kind of decision making process when designing a vehicle that weighs over a ton, capable of insane speeds should be literally criminal.
I don't get the hate? Yes, it's different, but no one forces you or anyone else to buy a Tesla.
The Falcon wing doors do actually offer practicality. They can open in tight places a traditional door cannot and create a wider opening which was handy for my Elderly father to get in and out of.
For the story, we don't know if she was driving a Tesla with or without a stock. Sure, having the ability to shift on the screen is not anything I want, but I also don't own a new Model S or X. And the point is moot if she was using a stock to shift that is no different from various other cars.
This is tragic and could have happened to anyone, but to blame it on Tesla is fascinating. Tesla got a lot of hate before Elon went full Nazi and he deserves all the hate possible, but this really isn't an issue with Tesla's.
What?
Minivans solved this problem by having sliding doors. And those can actually open and shut without worrying about clearance height above you or present difficulties getting out in a rollover.
You're absolutely right. If only minivans were as popular as SUVs.
That appeal for minivan doors on Teslas... ;D
Minivan doors are great and any car, whose form-factor permits, should have them.
Suicide doors too honestly. We have enough smart sensing frippery in our cars now that the risk of it opening while driving are nil.
I thought suicide doors were called that because the front door had to be open in order to open the back door? Not just that they opened backwards. Am I mistaken?
No they were called that because if the back door opened even a tiny bit while the car was moving the air resistance would cause it to swing all the way open, and you can’t close it without needing to reach out. Back then cars didn’t even always have seatbelts and the seats were basically vinyl benches so people could roll out when that happened. The name is a bit of gallows humor, like calling your motorcycle license an “organ donor card.”
What you described is the safety feature they added in so that failure mode doesn’t happen.
Huh... Good to know. Thanks!
I thought it’s because if they open at high speed, they act as a giant air scoop and can kill unbelted passengers by throwing them from the vehicle. Regular doors are just forced shut by the airflow, making them safer.
I honestly didn't care for gull wing doors until I heard the reasoning on why they were put on the Seven; people said to the guy who built it that he couldn't, so he did. :P
I actually do like sliding panel doors, but my experience with 15 year old ones built in the 80s and the difficulty of moving them would make me reluctant to buy a car with them if I could avoid them.
Modern powered sliding doors are kinda nice. Just lift the handle and they open themselves. More parts to break though.
So I think the story is getting traction is because of the victim reported going into reverse by accident and Tesla infamously got rid of the steering stalk in some models. BUT there are several other issues going on here.
Had she driven into a lake in a more populated area with better trained rescue crews, she would have probably walked away and bought a new Tesla.
Just to be pedantic, I've seen people choose to buy different brands of cars for less, so i'd say money is on them not getting a new tesla if they felt it was the car's fault they were in reverse(true or not).
To be clear though, I agree with everything else.
imo this makes the door issues with the Tesla more potentially problematic in a situation like this. If you only have a few moments to open the door before it becomes impossible, any property of the door that causes undue delay in such a circumstance is a problem. The Tesla's unintuitive and convoluted doors could indeed take so much longer that someone would fail to escape their car who would have if their car had a conventional door (even if that's unlikely to be the case this time).
All great points and very true. My understanding is that the laminated glass takes more effort to break but still eventually would and I still carry a window breaker ever since that one Mythbusters episode.
Most testing i've seen indicates you're not breaking out laminated glass without serious effort. A glass breaker might help, but then you're probably using your entire body and kicking as hard as you can, and even then if you're in any way small, frail, weak, you're probably not going to succeed.
Still not a bad thing to have in the car, but safety crews basically recommend a saw for getting through it.
Yeah I know it's tough enough that I would move to my back windows if I could and found myself in that situation.
In the episode where they try the Myth that once the car has filled with water and equalized you can open the door, Jamie talks about how he always has a window popper in his car in case of such an emergency.
Angela Chao, McConnell’s sister-in-law, had a blood alcohol level 3 times above legal limit in fatal accident, police say (NBC News)
It’s often the case that multiple things have to go wrong to cause a fatal accident, and fixing any one of them would have prevented it.
Knowing this, imagine if she were driving on a public road and struck someone. Someone else might have died, and because she's rich, she would have gotten off because money talks.
I have very little sympathy for drunk or even slightly buzzed drivers. My best friend's cousin was killed by a drunk driver.
I am also incredibly unsurprised by this outcome - but Teslas are still not cars I want to be in for safety reasons.
Does anyone remember the 1984 Audi 5000 unintended acceleration? I finally bought a rebadged 100 in 1990 for a huge discount. What a nice car. I had been driving standard and automatic cars for years by then and it was the 8th car I had actively driven. On top of that I drove dozens of rentals each year as I traveled a lot. Point is I knew my way around cars and could adjust instantly to most interiors. So the first time I sat in the 100 I noticed something odd. The steering wheel was perceptibly to the right of center of any car I had driven. This was due to the front-wheel drive, aerodynamic design and placement of engine and transmission that shifted the location of the steering column. No big deal? Actually it was, because even a 2-3 centimeter difference meant my right foot occasionally missed the brake pedal almost landing on the accelerator. I never found anyone mention that in any of the articles but it was very clear to me especially in the early days of driving it.
Can someone please explain what exactly is weird with reverse on Tesla? (Do not have Tesla, have another car with automatic transmission).
Upd: looks like they combined control of autopilot functionality with stick actions? Like sometime its reverse, sometime its disabling of auto pilot..
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/reverse-instead-of-drive-by-mistake.287985/
On some teslas, there’s a stalk that sticks out of the steering wheel that you use to select direction. Push down for forward and Push up is Reverse. There a button at the end for Park.
On other teslas (like the model X involved in the accident) they got rid of the stalk and you have to use the touchscreen to select direction. I’ve actually never tried it, but I imagine you slide your finger up or down.
With regards to autopilot, you push the stalk down twice to engage. I don’t know how it works with the touchscreen variant.