This has always been a major source of frustration for me. I get even more frustrated by not-usually-busy roads that are temporarily busy. There is a two lane road near me that has a couple dozen...
This has always been a major source of frustration for me. I get even more frustrated by not-usually-busy roads that are temporarily busy.
There is a two lane road near me that has a couple dozen football/soccer fields that also happen to be near one of the larger factories in town. If there is a soccer tournament happening, you can bet that there will be traffic backed up for a mile because people want to turn left into the fields during shift change rather than go to the next intersection and turn around.
Construction is also bad for this. A left turn lane gets removed and people will stop an entire stoplight cycle's worth of time because the person in front wants to make a left turn.
In all of these scenarios, people also get anxious because they know they are holding up the line and they end up making a turn during a gap that might not be wide enough and endanger themselves and the oncoming traffic. It just doesn't seem to occur to people that they can just go to the next intersection and try a different path.
I hate left turns with a burning passion. They have no place in populated areas.
I'm one of those people who won't go to the next intersection and turn around, unless I'm familiar with the area. Too many times I've tried that, and then hit a streak of intersections with "No...
I'm one of those people who won't go to the next intersection and turn around, unless I'm familiar with the area. Too many times I've tried that, and then hit a streak of intersections with "No U-Turn" signs that forced me to go miles out of my way, usually causing me mild anxiety.
If I don't make a u-turn, just turn left with the goal of approaching my destination from a different angle, the chances that I get lost and completely panic are extremely high.
Thankfully I live in a walkable city now and no longer own a car. Driving is absolutely horrible for my anxiety.
You can also make a right turn and then turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a right turn and turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a less busy left turn, turn around, get...
You can also make a right turn and then turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a right turn and turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a less busy left turn, turn around, get back on the original road as if you'd done a u-turn OR go to the next intersection, turn left, then take a side street back to your original path, etc. You just don't have to be tied to taking the most direct route. Understand that you'll probably get there at the same time whether you execute every action at the exact right time or wait till a slightly bigger gap or whatever.
I know your anxiety isn't going to be cured by this, but you can always just turn literally anywhere, take a moment to collect yourself, and find the route you want. There's a very good chance that random turn is on a totally acceptable, if slightly less direct, path.
If I know the area, it's not a problem, but if I don't know the area, I will absolutely not do any of that. Deviating from my path, especially if I hit a no u-turn sign, means potentially not...
If I know the area, it's not a problem, but if I don't know the area, I will absolutely not do any of that. Deviating from my path, especially if I hit a no u-turn sign, means potentially not being able to figure out which turn I need to undo, and getting very lost. (I have dyscalculia and it's tough for me to rotate shapes in my head, and I also get right and left confused very easily). If I turn on just any random road, what if it's one-way? What if I can't turn in the direction that I'd need to in order to get back to my path before the road bends, and now I don't even know which direction I'm going unless I look ay my GPS on my phone, which I try not to do unless I'm at a stoplight, but the calibration on it is all fucked so unless I'm moving it's impossible to tell which way I'm actually facing. This isn't speculation or just catastrophization, I have gotten lost plenty of times by making an unplanned turn. Okay, panicking because I'm lost is a bit of catastrophization, but I don't think I'm ever going to stop doing that.
It's not about convenience or wanting to be the most direct. If I knew the area I would often take less direct paths simply because they're more pleasant. But I'm not going to risk getting lost and panicking when I could just wait to turn.
But as I said, it's not a problem anymore. Now I can turn any which way I like any time I like with no worries because I'm using my human body to do it instead of a car.
While your suggestions will work for roads that are laid out reasonably well for driving, there are many places where they don't hold, unfortunately. There may not be a next intersection for some...
While your suggestions will work for roads that are laid out reasonably well for driving, there are many places where they don't hold, unfortunately. There may not be a next intersection for some time, or anywhere to turn at all. It may be that the next intersections will not allow a series of turns that will make returning and turning onto the original path viable, either legally (eg, a series of no u-turns, far turns onto streets not allowing turn-arounds, or near turns onto streets that don't allow far turns back onto the original street), or physically (passing a barrier to streets like a valley, canal, or motorway, a street that becomes physically divided with no turns across it, streets that simply don't have other connections, streets that become something else, etc). In complex street layouts, it may be very difficult to find your way back onto a viable route, to the point that it might require referring to a map. In some cases you will not arrive at anywhere near the same time if you don't take the correct turn, even if that turn is one that is difficult and poorly designed, or it may be the case that you must take a poorly designed turn at some point, and your only option is which one.
While the bad left turn followed by miles of no U-turn signs is something I've primarily seen in the US, the more general case of a bad intersection, often involving a difficult turn, followed by no alternative is more general, and something that seems fairly common in major European city centres, especially in older areas with complex streets not originally designed for cars.
Because every time I do this I end up having to go through five more intersections before I can actually do it. Some places aren't arranged in a grid, so it gets even more confusing, especially if...
It just doesn't seem to occur to people that they can just go to the next intersection and try a different path.
Because every time I do this I end up having to go through five more intersections before I can actually do it. Some places aren't arranged in a grid, so it gets even more confusing, especially if you aren't familiar with the area.
The answer isn't to ban left turns, it's to go back in time and build roundabouts instead of intersections.
Oh I hate this with passion. They're building apartments a few minutes down the street from me. The street where they're building these apartments only had three lanes at the intersection, left...
A left turn lane gets removed and people will stop an entire stoplight cycle's worth of time because the person in front wants to make a left turn.
Oh I hate this with passion. They're building apartments a few minutes down the street from me. The street where they're building these apartments only had three lanes at the intersection, left turning lane, right turning late, and straight. The left turning lane is closed during the construction and everyone instead waits in the middle lane to make a left turn, which can cause a pretty bad backup, so now I have to drive about three miles out of my way to avoid this intersection. Not sure what's worse, driving three miles to get around this intersection or waiting at this intersection for people to turn left because they're ignoring no left turn during construction.
Edit - dawned on me you may have meant left turning was banned at the intersection yet people ignore it. Oh well, lll leave my original response :) Im by no means an urban planner, but this just...
Edit - dawned on me you may have meant left turning was banned at the intersection yet people ignore it. Oh well, lll leave my original response :)
Im by no means an urban planner, but this just seems silly. Wouldnt it have made way more sense to temporarily mark up the road so straight is L only and right is both straight and R?
In any case, if you haven't, lodge a complaint with the city; may be a case that everyone thinks everyone else has complained, and the municipality isnt properly aware.
Yup, the left turning lane was temporarily closed but drivers ignore that and just wait in the middle lane and when they see an opening, they make a left turn. And now we're all just waiting for...
Yup, the left turning lane was temporarily closed but drivers ignore that and just wait in the middle lane and when they see an opening, they make a left turn.
And now we're all just waiting for these people to find a short window of time to be able to make a left turn from the middle lane.
The problem is that people are so used to making a left turn here that they're ignoring the fact that the turning lane is closed.
I think asking motorists to check the time as they're driving down the street is a bad idea. I'm not willing to bet that everyone keeps an accurate clock in their car, and we certainly don't want...
Ban left turns on the state avenues that serve as the city’s main arteries from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. every day.
I think asking motorists to check the time as they're driving down the street is a bad idea. I'm not willing to bet that everyone keeps an accurate clock in their car, and we certainly don't want people pulling out their phones while they're behind the wheel.
If the ban could be implemented as part of the stoplight logic, that would work, but I don't see how that would be done. You can't just have a left-turn arrow that's always red; people will wait behind it for long periods of time.
I suppose you could have a sign that says "NO LEFT TURNS WHILE THIS LIGHT IS FLASHING", but I don't trust that drivers will follow that kind of conditional rule reliably. I live not too far away from a low-clearance bridge that's absolutely plastered with lights and signs warning that if your truck exceeds 12'4" in height, you must go around. Every month or so, somebody ignores all of the lights and signs and rips the roof of their truck off.
The more likely implementation would be to just permaban left-turns on those streets.
Parking is necessarily a much slower process requiring much less in the way of reaction time than choosing whether or not to turn. Even if you pull into a space, pull out your phone to check the...
Parking is necessarily a much slower process requiring much less in the way of reaction time than choosing whether or not to turn. Even if you pull into a space, pull out your phone to check the time, and immediately pull out again, you've done something much less dangerous than checking your phone while deciding to switch lanes or begin a turn.
Sure but it seems to be not having the general idea of the time in a car is not a "you have to check your cell phone and it's unsafe" issue. Like if you don't know that your car is 3 min fast or...
Sure but it seems to be not having the general idea of the time in a car is not a "you have to check your cell phone and it's unsafe" issue. Like if you don't know that your car is 3 min fast or off by an hour for DST, don't make the left? This thread started with his easy it is to not make the left, so just don't. 乁( •_• )ㄏ
The clock in my car was always super wrong, and it was a pain in the butt to fix. Most of my friends' cars' clocks were wrong, too. We all had much older cars with various tiny buttons that you...
The clock in my car was always super wrong, and it was a pain in the butt to fix. Most of my friends' cars' clocks were wrong, too. We all had much older cars with various tiny buttons that you had to hold for a long time to fix them. Cars made after like, 2010, usually had easier buttons and more correct clocks, in my experience.
Huh, I never had an issue, but my previous cars were a Civic and an Oldsmobile so idk. Let's just say back in the Oldsmobile days I didn't always have a phone to double check with and always knew...
Huh, I never had an issue, but my previous cars were a Civic and an Oldsmobile so idk. Let's just say back in the Oldsmobile days I didn't always have a phone to double check with and always knew if it was a few minutes fast or slow.
I actually feel like they've gotten easier to set too, but that could just be me.
Anyway, my point is, you do generally know about what time it is in a car, and if you don't, you don't make the left, no harm done.
Ehh, I think the sort of person who doesn't know what time it is in a car is more likely to just chance it and end up getting a ticket. Which isn't the end of the world, but I'm not sure if it...
Ehh, I think the sort of person who doesn't know what time it is in a car is more likely to just chance it and end up getting a ticket. Which isn't the end of the world, but I'm not sure if it actually solves the stated problem. I do think you're right that it's less common now that cars have gotten newer, though. The newest car I ever owned was made in 2006, newer cars that I've been in seemed much easier to set the clocks on. I had to use a bent paperclip to set the clock on my s-10. I think that might have been the aftermarket radio my dad installed, though.
I do think that is particularly an aftermarket radio thing. But yeah if someone wants to risk it, that's on them. Folks do tend to adapt to it when they're local.
I do think that is particularly an aftermarket radio thing. But yeah if someone wants to risk it, that's on them. Folks do tend to adapt to it when they're local.
Well, I also had a 2006 Acura that had tiny little buttons tucked up under the top of the dashboard, that you couldn't even see from the driver's seat, and the buttons were just one to let you...
Well, I also had a 2006 Acura that had tiny little buttons tucked up under the top of the dashboard, that you couldn't even see from the driver's seat, and the buttons were just one to let you change the time, one for the hour, and one for the minute. You had to hit the hour button 11 times to correct for daylight savings time. The minutes drifted, and if the clock was 3 minutes fast, you had to hit the minute button 54 times to correct the clock. It would go faster if you held it down, but then it was really easy to miss the time you wanted. Huge pain to fix.
Again, it doesn't mean this change couldn't be implemented. Just defending the possibility that someone wouldn't know exactly what time it is in their car without looking at their phone.
No, it's street parking. Parking illegally would be the same as just stopping in the middle of any other road as far as anyone driving around you would be concerned.
No, it's street parking. Parking illegally would be the same as just stopping in the middle of any other road as far as anyone driving around you would be concerned.
If other people are actively using that section of road as a thoroughfare it's pretty obvious that you can't park there. If no one is on it for as far as you can see in either direction, it may...
If other people are actively using that section of road as a thoroughfare it's pretty obvious that you can't park there. If no one is on it for as far as you can see in either direction, it may still be illegal to stop, but it's still much safer than doing so at an in-use intersection.
That's not true. My hometown has limited parking hours on the main road through the downtown area and people use that lane for driving during parking hours all the time. It's still a lane you can...
That's not true. My hometown has limited parking hours on the main road through the downtown area and people use that lane for driving during parking hours all the time. It's still a lane you can drive in if no one is parked there.
That's a really odd complaint because it's really not that complicated to know the general time of day that you're driving. I'm really not sure why you think it's such a big deal.
That's a really odd complaint because it's really not that complicated to know the general time of day that you're driving. I'm really not sure why you think it's such a big deal.
You don't just need to know the general time. If the change-over is at 9 AM and you turn at 8:55 you've broken the law, and if you turn at 9:00 you haven't. Depending on how petty the cops in your...
You don't just need to know the general time. If the change-over is at 9 AM and you turn at 8:55 you've broken the law, and if you turn at 9:00 you haven't. Depending on how petty the cops in your area are, you might need to know the exact minute as you approach the intersection, but more likely you'll need to know it within at least 5 minutes.
Okay, and? Speedometers aren't all calibrated properly. It's still your fault if you're speeding. I don't see why your clock being wrong should impede simple fixes to major issues.
Okay, and? Speedometers aren't all calibrated properly. It's still your fault if you're speeding. I don't see why your clock being wrong should impede simple fixes to major issues.
It shouldn't, it's just a lot more understandable that someone would fall afoul of that system than they would a system that only required them to know the rough time of day.
It shouldn't, it's just a lot more understandable that someone would fall afoul of that system than they would a system that only required them to know the rough time of day.
I would look at it like school zones where you stay on the cautious side because you don't want a ticket. Like if its close just go around, its not really a big deal.
I would look at it like school zones where you stay on the cautious side because you don't want a ticket. Like if its close just go around, its not really a big deal.
Good advice, but is that what most people in this situation will do? And if people are still taking the turns at the wrong times, have we actually solved the stated problem?
Good advice, but is that what most people in this situation will do? And if people are still taking the turns at the wrong times, have we actually solved the stated problem?
I ain’t no Sith, so I don’t deal in absolutes. I think if implementing the change improves road safety broadly (despite never obtaining 100% adoption by drivers) then that’s a good outcome. My...
I ain’t no Sith, so I don’t deal in absolutes. I think if implementing the change improves road safety broadly (despite never obtaining 100% adoption by drivers) then that’s a good outcome.
My actual opinion is that you can get basically any desired behaviour from drivers by designing the road in the right way, and paint on a sign is about the laziest way to try to affect change.
However, all of this is beside the point: my comment was only intending to point out that I don’t think “but what if people don’t know the exact time” is a strong enough argument to scrap the idea
My comment wasn't intending to support scrapping the idea. I just felt that referring to the knowledge needed to navigate this intersection as "knowing the general time of day" was misrepresenting...
My comment wasn't intending to support scrapping the idea. I just felt that referring to the knowledge needed to navigate this intersection as "knowing the general time of day" was misrepresenting the situation somewhat.
What about installing one of those electric signs that turns on during certain hours? We have a couple of those in my neighborhood where the "no left turn" sign lights hp between 3p and 6p.
What about installing one of those electric signs that turns on during certain hours? We have a couple of those in my neighborhood where the "no left turn" sign lights hp between 3p and 6p.
With the bridges Id say its more not knowing how tall you are and risking it. Id compare the proposed lights to school zone lights, if its on no lefts/stay slow.
With the bridges Id say its more not knowing how tall you are and risking it. Id compare the proposed lights to school zone lights, if its on no lefts/stay slow.
My miss my Michigan Us, Atlanta is a shit show. My favorite is when the GPS navigates me to a road because the physical distance is smaller, but it doesn't account for the fact that it's asking me...
My miss my Michigan Us, Atlanta is a shit show.
My favorite is when the GPS navigates me to a road because the physical distance is smaller, but it doesn't account for the fact that it's asking me to make a left across traffic with no light.
The article emphasizes the loss in speed, but I think the fact that all that idling and waiting is absolutely ruinous for gas mileage for city driving is the real killer. Poorly sequenced traffic...
The article emphasizes the loss in speed, but I think the fact that all that idling and waiting is absolutely ruinous for gas mileage for city driving is the real killer. Poorly sequenced traffic lights and the prevalence of 4-way Stops instead of Yield signs* are bad enough. But then the left turn backups, which lead to people trying to lane change, which leads to slowdowns in traffic in all the lanes (not to mention collision risk from impatient, hurried lane changing) make driving in general a real hassle. I recently did a long highway drive in contrast to my usually do very short, intra-city during rush hour drives and I got 220+ more miles on my gas tank. That’s SO MUCH FUEL. Even if I had an EV that’s a lot of power wasted, and if the power wasn’t an issue that’s a lot of brake and tire dust!
*The signage thing is, sadly, probably a necessary evil since drivers basically treat Stop signs as Yield signs, act as if Yield signs don’t exist, and suffer from severe pedestrian/cyclist blindness even at crosswalks with pedestrian signals.
It's essentially zero power wasted. The EV basically only has to run the screen, climate, and cameras/computer(s) when it's not driving, and those really don't use much power. There would also be...
Even if I had an EV that’s a lot of power wasted, and if the power wasn’t an issue that’s a lot of brake and tire dust!
It's essentially zero power wasted. The EV basically only has to run the screen, climate, and cameras/computer(s) when it's not driving, and those really don't use much power.
There would also be more tire dust if the EV was not sitting in line, and the EV will likely not use its brakes at all in either scenario due to regenerative braking.
Hybrids get better city mileage than highway mileage in large part because regenerative braking recovers much of the energy used to accelerate. BEVs do the same thing.
Hybrids get better city mileage than highway mileage in large part because regenerative braking recovers much of the energy used to accelerate.
Without friction and air resistance, you'd just keep coasting forever once you were at speed. Maintenance acceleration is minuscule compared to bringing a massive object from rest up to the...
Without friction and air resistance, you'd just keep coasting forever once you were at speed. Maintenance acceleration is minuscule compared to bringing a massive object from rest up to the desired speed, which requires a far greater energy input.
This is why highway MPG on a traditional combustion engine driven car is much higher than city mileage, even with something like an idle engine stop, which is fairly common on cars now.
The best thing for economy, regardless of fuel type, would be using roundabouts and minimizing stopping.
Idle engine stop is simultaneously really great and really terrible. When its working as intended, after driving at least 5 miles, it saves a lot of fuel. But it's especially rough on the engine...
Idle engine stop is simultaneously really great and really terrible. When its working as intended, after driving at least 5 miles, it saves a lot of fuel.
But it's especially rough on the engine if the oil isn't up to temperature (my subaru will start doing it well before it's properly up to temp), as well as being counterproductive if you're not stopped for at least 10 seconds. Really annoying if it triggers then traffic flows again after 3 seconds.
Yeah, but I was talking about EVs, where it is reversed and they are more efficient in stop and go traffic than at highway speeds (although they are, of course most efficient at a specific,...
This is why highway MPG on a traditional combustion engine driven car is much higher than city mileage, even with something like an idle engine stop, which is fairly common on cars now.
Yeah, but I was talking about EVs, where it is reversed and they are more efficient in stop and go traffic than at highway speeds (although they are, of course most efficient at a specific, constant speed...but in dense traffic, you wouldn't be going at a constant speed anyway regardless of if left turns are allowed).
UPS trucks are usually driving along routes though, so they’re more concerned about efficient coverage of a large area. It’s a different logic from going point to point like an individual would.
UPS trucks are usually driving along routes though, so they’re more concerned about efficient coverage of a large area. It’s a different logic from going point to point like an individual would.
I wonder if it would actually reduce risk for civilians to never take left turns unless absolutely necessary. I think people would be somewhat distracted finding their right turns at first --- and...
I wonder if it would actually reduce risk for civilians to never take left turns unless absolutely necessary. I think people would be somewhat distracted finding their right turns at first --- and side roads would end up with unexpected traffic
100% agree. Left turns (or turns across traffic, for our friends who drive on the other side) are among the worst things about driving a car. Living in Toronto, I avoid them wherever I can and...
100% agree. Left turns (or turns across traffic, for our friends who drive on the other side) are among the worst things about driving a car. Living in Toronto, I avoid them wherever I can and also try to go the next level to avoid others doing it ahead of time. Either a turn needs a dedicated left turn signal, or not be allowed.
Unfortunately, you still need people to follow the rules. The major intersection near me does this, but there is no shortage of entitled or inattentive drivers who try to turn during the no turns allowed period. This almost always prompts a flurry of honks and insults as they have to wait for either traffic or pedestrians
This has always been a major source of frustration for me. I get even more frustrated by not-usually-busy roads that are temporarily busy.
There is a two lane road near me that has a couple dozen football/soccer fields that also happen to be near one of the larger factories in town. If there is a soccer tournament happening, you can bet that there will be traffic backed up for a mile because people want to turn left into the fields during shift change rather than go to the next intersection and turn around.
Construction is also bad for this. A left turn lane gets removed and people will stop an entire stoplight cycle's worth of time because the person in front wants to make a left turn.
In all of these scenarios, people also get anxious because they know they are holding up the line and they end up making a turn during a gap that might not be wide enough and endanger themselves and the oncoming traffic. It just doesn't seem to occur to people that they can just go to the next intersection and try a different path.
I hate left turns with a burning passion. They have no place in populated areas.
I'm one of those people who won't go to the next intersection and turn around, unless I'm familiar with the area. Too many times I've tried that, and then hit a streak of intersections with "No U-Turn" signs that forced me to go miles out of my way, usually causing me mild anxiety.
If I don't make a u-turn, just turn left with the goal of approaching my destination from a different angle, the chances that I get lost and completely panic are extremely high.
Thankfully I live in a walkable city now and no longer own a car. Driving is absolutely horrible for my anxiety.
You can also make a right turn and then turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a right turn and turn around OR go to the next intersection, make a less busy left turn, turn around, get back on the original road as if you'd done a u-turn OR go to the next intersection, turn left, then take a side street back to your original path, etc. You just don't have to be tied to taking the most direct route. Understand that you'll probably get there at the same time whether you execute every action at the exact right time or wait till a slightly bigger gap or whatever.
I know your anxiety isn't going to be cured by this, but you can always just turn literally anywhere, take a moment to collect yourself, and find the route you want. There's a very good chance that random turn is on a totally acceptable, if slightly less direct, path.
If I know the area, it's not a problem, but if I don't know the area, I will absolutely not do any of that. Deviating from my path, especially if I hit a no u-turn sign, means potentially not being able to figure out which turn I need to undo, and getting very lost. (I have dyscalculia and it's tough for me to rotate shapes in my head, and I also get right and left confused very easily). If I turn on just any random road, what if it's one-way? What if I can't turn in the direction that I'd need to in order to get back to my path before the road bends, and now I don't even know which direction I'm going unless I look ay my GPS on my phone, which I try not to do unless I'm at a stoplight, but the calibration on it is all fucked so unless I'm moving it's impossible to tell which way I'm actually facing. This isn't speculation or just catastrophization, I have gotten lost plenty of times by making an unplanned turn. Okay, panicking because I'm lost is a bit of catastrophization, but I don't think I'm ever going to stop doing that.
It's not about convenience or wanting to be the most direct. If I knew the area I would often take less direct paths simply because they're more pleasant. But I'm not going to risk getting lost and panicking when I could just wait to turn.
But as I said, it's not a problem anymore. Now I can turn any which way I like any time I like with no worries because I'm using my human body to do it instead of a car.
While your suggestions will work for roads that are laid out reasonably well for driving, there are many places where they don't hold, unfortunately. There may not be a next intersection for some time, or anywhere to turn at all. It may be that the next intersections will not allow a series of turns that will make returning and turning onto the original path viable, either legally (eg, a series of no u-turns, far turns onto streets not allowing turn-arounds, or near turns onto streets that don't allow far turns back onto the original street), or physically (passing a barrier to streets like a valley, canal, or motorway, a street that becomes physically divided with no turns across it, streets that simply don't have other connections, streets that become something else, etc). In complex street layouts, it may be very difficult to find your way back onto a viable route, to the point that it might require referring to a map. In some cases you will not arrive at anywhere near the same time if you don't take the correct turn, even if that turn is one that is difficult and poorly designed, or it may be the case that you must take a poorly designed turn at some point, and your only option is which one.
While the bad left turn followed by miles of no U-turn signs is something I've primarily seen in the US, the more general case of a bad intersection, often involving a difficult turn, followed by no alternative is more general, and something that seems fairly common in major European city centres, especially in older areas with complex streets not originally designed for cars.
Because every time I do this I end up having to go through five more intersections before I can actually do it. Some places aren't arranged in a grid, so it gets even more confusing, especially if you aren't familiar with the area.
The answer isn't to ban left turns, it's to go back in time and build roundabouts instead of intersections.
Roundabouts solve an amazing number of problems.
Oh I hate this with passion. They're building apartments a few minutes down the street from me. The street where they're building these apartments only had three lanes at the intersection, left turning lane, right turning late, and straight. The left turning lane is closed during the construction and everyone instead waits in the middle lane to make a left turn, which can cause a pretty bad backup, so now I have to drive about three miles out of my way to avoid this intersection. Not sure what's worse, driving three miles to get around this intersection or waiting at this intersection for people to turn left because they're ignoring no left turn during construction.
Edit - dawned on me you may have meant left turning was banned at the intersection yet people ignore it. Oh well, lll leave my original response :)
Im by no means an urban planner, but this just seems silly. Wouldnt it have made way more sense to temporarily mark up the road so straight is L only and right is both straight and R?
In any case, if you haven't, lodge a complaint with the city; may be a case that everyone thinks everyone else has complained, and the municipality isnt properly aware.
Yup, the left turning lane was temporarily closed but drivers ignore that and just wait in the middle lane and when they see an opening, they make a left turn.
And now we're all just waiting for these people to find a short window of time to be able to make a left turn from the middle lane.
The problem is that people are so used to making a left turn here that they're ignoring the fact that the turning lane is closed.
I think asking motorists to check the time as they're driving down the street is a bad idea. I'm not willing to bet that everyone keeps an accurate clock in their car, and we certainly don't want people pulling out their phones while they're behind the wheel.
If the ban could be implemented as part of the stoplight logic, that would work, but I don't see how that would be done. You can't just have a left-turn arrow that's always red; people will wait behind it for long periods of time.
I suppose you could have a sign that says "NO LEFT TURNS WHILE THIS LIGHT IS FLASHING", but I don't trust that drivers will follow that kind of conditional rule reliably. I live not too far away from a low-clearance bridge that's absolutely plastered with lights and signs warning that if your truck exceeds 12'4" in height, you must go around. Every month or so, somebody ignores all of the lights and signs and rips the roof of their truck off.
The more likely implementation would be to just permaban left-turns on those streets.
My city already has a lot of "no parking between 7 AM and 7 PM" type signs. I think most people have a pretty good idea of what time it is.
Parking is necessarily a much slower process requiring much less in the way of reaction time than choosing whether or not to turn. Even if you pull into a space, pull out your phone to check the time, and immediately pull out again, you've done something much less dangerous than checking your phone while deciding to switch lanes or begin a turn.
Do people not have clocks in their car? Is my 2014 CR-V that out of date for still having a clock?
I think their point was that the clock may be off by a couple minutes, but, like...who cares? Your speedometer could be off by a few mph, too.
I've owned a car where the clock drifted a lot, and correcting it was a pain in the butt so I never bothered.
Sure but it seems to be not having the general idea of the time in a car is not a "you have to check your cell phone and it's unsafe" issue. Like if you don't know that your car is 3 min fast or off by an hour for DST, don't make the left? This thread started with his easy it is to not make the left, so just don't. 乁( •_• )ㄏ
The clock in my car was always super wrong, and it was a pain in the butt to fix. Most of my friends' cars' clocks were wrong, too. We all had much older cars with various tiny buttons that you had to hold for a long time to fix them. Cars made after like, 2010, usually had easier buttons and more correct clocks, in my experience.
Huh, I never had an issue, but my previous cars were a Civic and an Oldsmobile so idk. Let's just say back in the Oldsmobile days I didn't always have a phone to double check with and always knew if it was a few minutes fast or slow.
I actually feel like they've gotten easier to set too, but that could just be me.
Anyway, my point is, you do generally know about what time it is in a car, and if you don't, you don't make the left, no harm done.
Ehh, I think the sort of person who doesn't know what time it is in a car is more likely to just chance it and end up getting a ticket. Which isn't the end of the world, but I'm not sure if it actually solves the stated problem. I do think you're right that it's less common now that cars have gotten newer, though. The newest car I ever owned was made in 2006, newer cars that I've been in seemed much easier to set the clocks on. I had to use a bent paperclip to set the clock on my s-10. I think that might have been the aftermarket radio my dad installed, though.
I do think that is particularly an aftermarket radio thing. But yeah if someone wants to risk it, that's on them. Folks do tend to adapt to it when they're local.
Well, I also had a 2006 Acura that had tiny little buttons tucked up under the top of the dashboard, that you couldn't even see from the driver's seat, and the buttons were just one to let you change the time, one for the hour, and one for the minute. You had to hit the hour button 11 times to correct for daylight savings time. The minutes drifted, and if the clock was 3 minutes fast, you had to hit the minute button 54 times to correct the clock. It would go faster if you held it down, but then it was really easy to miss the time you wanted. Huge pain to fix.
Again, it doesn't mean this change couldn't be implemented. Just defending the possibility that someone wouldn't know exactly what time it is in their car without looking at their phone.
I was referring to the paperclip poke to change the time.
No, it's street parking. Parking illegally would be the same as just stopping in the middle of any other road as far as anyone driving around you would be concerned.
If other people are actively using that section of road as a thoroughfare it's pretty obvious that you can't park there. If no one is on it for as far as you can see in either direction, it may still be illegal to stop, but it's still much safer than doing so at an in-use intersection.
That's not true. My hometown has limited parking hours on the main road through the downtown area and people use that lane for driving during parking hours all the time. It's still a lane you can drive in if no one is parked there.
I stand corrected, then. I've never seen anything like that.
That's a really odd complaint because it's really not that complicated to know the general time of day that you're driving. I'm really not sure why you think it's such a big deal.
You don't just need to know the general time. If the change-over is at 9 AM and you turn at 8:55 you've broken the law, and if you turn at 9:00 you haven't. Depending on how petty the cops in your area are, you might need to know the exact minute as you approach the intersection, but more likely you'll need to know it within at least 5 minutes.
Okay, and? Speedometers aren't all calibrated properly. It's still your fault if you're speeding. I don't see why your clock being wrong should impede simple fixes to major issues.
It shouldn't, it's just a lot more understandable that someone would fall afoul of that system than they would a system that only required them to know the rough time of day.
I would look at it like school zones where you stay on the cautious side because you don't want a ticket. Like if its close just go around, its not really a big deal.
If you’re not confident, just don’t take the risk? Seems about as difficult as timed school zones or parking clearway times
Good advice, but is that what most people in this situation will do? And if people are still taking the turns at the wrong times, have we actually solved the stated problem?
I ain’t no Sith, so I don’t deal in absolutes. I think if implementing the change improves road safety broadly (despite never obtaining 100% adoption by drivers) then that’s a good outcome.
My actual opinion is that you can get basically any desired behaviour from drivers by designing the road in the right way, and paint on a sign is about the laziest way to try to affect change.
However, all of this is beside the point: my comment was only intending to point out that I don’t think “but what if people don’t know the exact time” is a strong enough argument to scrap the idea
My comment wasn't intending to support scrapping the idea. I just felt that referring to the knowledge needed to navigate this intersection as "knowing the general time of day" was misrepresenting the situation somewhat.
What about installing one of those electric signs that turns on during certain hours? We have a couple of those in my neighborhood where the "no left turn" sign lights hp between 3p and 6p.
With the bridges Id say its more not knowing how tall you are and risking it. Id compare the proposed lights to school zone lights, if its on no lefts/stay slow.
I present to you the Michigan left. Instead of turning left at the intersection, you continue forward, take a U-turn, then take a right.
I'll see your Michigan Left and raise the New Jersey Jug Handle, Type C being the best.
RCIs get my vote.
If we're talking proper bests we should be yanking out almost all traffic lights and stop signs and putting in roundabouts!
I don’t know if I’d claim this is better but while we’re talking about cool intersection types, I love Hook turns
My miss my Michigan Us, Atlanta is a shit show.
My favorite is when the GPS navigates me to a road because the physical distance is smaller, but it doesn't account for the fact that it's asking me to make a left across traffic with no light.
The article emphasizes the loss in speed, but I think the fact that all that idling and waiting is absolutely ruinous for gas mileage for city driving is the real killer. Poorly sequenced traffic lights and the prevalence of 4-way Stops instead of Yield signs* are bad enough. But then the left turn backups, which lead to people trying to lane change, which leads to slowdowns in traffic in all the lanes (not to mention collision risk from impatient, hurried lane changing) make driving in general a real hassle. I recently did a long highway drive in contrast to my usually do very short, intra-city during rush hour drives and I got 220+ more miles on my gas tank. That’s SO MUCH FUEL. Even if I had an EV that’s a lot of power wasted, and if the power wasn’t an issue that’s a lot of brake and tire dust!
*The signage thing is, sadly, probably a necessary evil since drivers basically treat Stop signs as Yield signs, act as if Yield signs don’t exist, and suffer from severe pedestrian/cyclist blindness even at crosswalks with pedestrian signals.
It's essentially zero power wasted. The EV basically only has to run the screen, climate, and cameras/computer(s) when it's not driving, and those really don't use much power.
There would also be more tire dust if the EV was not sitting in line, and the EV will likely not use its brakes at all in either scenario due to regenerative braking.
Stop and go means you spend a lot more time accelerating.
An EV will get better efficiency in stop&go traffic than highway driving. Regenerative braking recoups a ton of the energy
Hybrids get better city mileage than highway mileage in large part because regenerative braking recovers much of the energy used to accelerate.
BEVs do the same thing.
Without friction and air resistance, you'd just keep coasting forever once you were at speed. Maintenance acceleration is minuscule compared to bringing a massive object from rest up to the desired speed, which requires a far greater energy input.
This is why highway MPG on a traditional combustion engine driven car is much higher than city mileage, even with something like an idle engine stop, which is fairly common on cars now.
The best thing for economy, regardless of fuel type, would be using roundabouts and minimizing stopping.
Idle engine stop is simultaneously really great and really terrible. When its working as intended, after driving at least 5 miles, it saves a lot of fuel.
But it's especially rough on the engine if the oil isn't up to temperature (my subaru will start doing it well before it's properly up to temp), as well as being counterproductive if you're not stopped for at least 10 seconds. Really annoying if it triggers then traffic flows again after 3 seconds.
Yeah, but I was talking about EVs, where it is reversed and they are more efficient in stop and go traffic than at highway speeds (although they are, of course most efficient at a specific, constant speed...but in dense traffic, you wouldn't be going at a constant speed anyway regardless of if left turns are allowed).
I think UPS had 'loop dispatch', which was a system to plan routes with minimal left turns. It makes sense to avoid them.
UPS trucks are usually driving along routes though, so they’re more concerned about efficient coverage of a large area. It’s a different logic from going point to point like an individual would.
I wonder if it would actually reduce risk for civilians to never take left turns unless absolutely necessary. I think people would be somewhat distracted finding their right turns at first --- and side roads would end up with unexpected traffic
100% agree. Left turns (or turns across traffic, for our friends who drive on the other side) are among the worst things about driving a car. Living in Toronto, I avoid them wherever I can and also try to go the next level to avoid others doing it ahead of time. Either a turn needs a dedicated left turn signal, or not be allowed.
Unfortunately, you still need people to follow the rules. The major intersection near me does this, but there is no shortage of entitled or inattentive drivers who try to turn during the no turns allowed period. This almost always prompts a flurry of honks and insults as they have to wait for either traffic or pedestrians
For those without a WaPo subscription, here is an archive link: https://archive.is/UJ5Lv
Two of the worst car accidents I've ever been in were the result of making an unprotected left turn on a busy street. I avoid them at all costs now.