Its good Whedon isn't involved, his vision for the show - being a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space, speaking Chinese without any Chinese people, and specifically his plans for Inara -...
Its good Whedon isn't involved, his vision for the show - being a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space, speaking Chinese without any Chinese people, and specifically his plans for Inara - is better left in the past.
I am not sure that this will be good...but it falls into a "just don't watch" if I don't want to. I am not nearly as excited as I would have been 20 years ago.
Edit: I'm not apologizing for criticizing the problematic nostalgic fave and I'm not backing off of mentioning topics of race, history and identity, but fuck this is the most exhausting thing about being here. I'm out of this thread.
Is there an actual source for this claim? And I do mean an actual source. I've already suffered through reading the blog posts and social media comments that amount to "westerns are set after the...
a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space
Is there an actual source for this claim?
And I do mean an actual source. I've already suffered through reading the blog posts and social media comments that amount to "westerns are set after the Civil War and Firefly is a space western set after a civil war". An analysis I find unconvincing.
He was reading The Killer Angels A Classic Civil War Novel Served As Joss Whedon's Inspiration For Firefly 2002 interview So sure he elaborated on "early frontier life" but the book is about the...
Whedon was inspired to create "Firefly" after reading Michael Shaara's Civil War book "The Killer Angels" about the Battle of Gettysburg. "I got obsessed with the minutiae of life way back then," Whedon said, "early frontier life and when things were not as convenient as they are now. We wanted to do a show in the future that had a sense of history, that we don't solve all our problems and have impeccably clean spaceships."
So sure he elaborated on "early frontier life" but the book is about the Battle of Gettysburg, not old school westerns and not early frontier life. So, what did inspire him?
A lot of westerns around the same time did focus on the Confederate soldier fleeing from the Union, starting over in the "wild west" though. And there's a really clear through line from one to the next. It's not that they're set after the civil war, it's that the protagonist and his personal conflict is often directly tied to the war. Think the Outlaw Josey Wales.
He also named the character of Jubal Early, a real life Confederate general and featured in the book, (in part because Fillion is a descendant) which I think makes it clear that the Confederacy is explicitly on his mind.
That btw doesn't even start with all the textual examples in the show.
I'm not saying Whedon was like "whoohoo slavery." I'm saying his narrative aligned with those Confederate westerns and he stated he was explicitly inspired by a Civil War novel while naming a notable character after a Confederate general. Lost Cause narratives focus on the loyalty and toughness of their (former) Confederate characters. They lost but they lost for the cause they believed in, their country and fellow men.
The show was fun, but with more media literacy now than I had then, I'm less excited about that narrative. As I'm less excited about his views on and portrayals of women. Maybe he'd have been able to do something interesting with the LC style narrative, but based on the bits of plot plans released I don't really have high hopes.
ETA: also as noted by another poster, this is indeed literary criticism. I'm calling it a Lost Cause narrative; so while I can provide evidence that supports that, and did, the source is also DefinitelyNotAFae on the ides of March in the 4.5 billionth year (est.) of this planet's existence
I don't think any of that makes Firefly "a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space". What are missing are any elements in Firefly that actually espouse Confederate values. I'm struggling to...
I don't think any of that makes Firefly "a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space".
What are missing are any elements in Firefly that actually espouse Confederate values.
I'm saying his narrative aligned with those Confederate westerns
I'm struggling to see things your way for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is that the protagonists of the show are regularly depicted as being opposed to various forms of servitude, including slavery. I get that (especially in the beginning) Mal and the crew are depicted as morally gray and otherwise just trying to survive, not right the wrongs of their world (because, you know, they fought and lost a war over that already). However, as the story progresses, it becomes clear that the crew still have a sense of justice and want to do good (and they do!).
The protagonists fought and lost a war against the Alliance, and Whedon was inspired by narratives from the Civil War like basically every other Westerns author (space or otherwise), but...
None of that automatically makes the show a "Lost Cause narrative", primarily because the show does not actually depict or espouse any values from the Lost Cause.
Whedon was influenced by The Lost Cause, but in Firefly it's just a lost cause. To me that matters.
Lost Cause narratives focus on the loyalty and toughness of their (former) Confederate characters. They lost but they lost for the cause they believed in, their country and fellow men
You can say this about almost any defeated force in history. Narrative attempts to reframe defeat so that it's easier to swallow are the norm. The show depicts Mal and crew as loyal, tough, and having believed in the cause they fought for... but what else would you expect? Maybe if they were the bad guys in that war there would be room for good criticism (and probably a much more interesting story actually), but they weren't.
"Firefly is a Lost Cause narrative" seems like a tortured interpretation that relies more on the circumstances of Whedon's inspirations for the show's setting, than any actual content of the show itself. No thanks, I think that sort of analysis is uninteresting and incomplete.
I prefer to interpret media by what it actually depicts. What its story and characters say and do. The web of inspirations that lead to a work's creation and setting are important; we should not ignore that, but it is not determinant of what the work itself is or means.
That feels fine to me. The narrative of a just rebellion who loses to the empire due to disloyal leaders is a classic one, something that has happened and has been written about numerous times....
That feels fine to me. The narrative of a just rebellion who loses to the empire due to disloyal leaders is a classic one, something that has happened and has been written about numerous times. Lost cause didn’t invent it, they co-opted such a narrative because it is a strong story with universal appeal, so a good candidate to paper over your sins.
The issue with the lost cause narrative is that it’s trying to override history to defend a rebellion that started over chattel slavery.
Firefly is pure fiction. It’s not trying to override real history. If Whedon was inspired by the vibes of lost cause media, to me, that is completely acceptable so long as the fiction itself is not trying to argue that chattel slavery is good. And, while it’s been a while since I watched it, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Being fiction, you can make the rebels actually just and the empire actually bad.
Even calling it “Lost Cause narrative” feels weird. Are you letting the confederates own an entire sub-genre of rebellion stories? I wouldn’t give them that kind of power.
That feels like saying “Harry Potter narrative” instead of “coming of age story”.
Ok, I said given that narrative I'm not so excited to see it come back. It can feel fine to you or not, as you like. Yes. He can be inspired by whatever he likes, obviously. But it seems he was in...
That feels fine to me.
Ok, I said given that narrative I'm not so excited to see it come back. It can feel fine to you or not, as you like.
The issue with the lost cause narrative is that it’s trying to override history to defend a rebellion that started over chattel slavery.
Yes.
Firefly is pure fiction. It’s not trying to override real history. If Whedon was inspired by the vibes of lost cause media, to me, that is completely acceptable so long as the fiction itself is not trying to argue that chattel slavery is good. And, while it’s been a while since I watched it, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Being fiction, you can make the rebels actually just and the empire actually bad.
He can be inspired by whatever he likes, obviously. But it seems he was in fact inspired by this thing so I'm pointing out this thing that inspired him. I do know how fiction works. Since it apparently needs said: I enjoyed the show, I watched the show repeatedly. I am not interested in more of that narrative in 2026 and I'm glad Whedon isn't involved in the show in 2026.
But the person was doubting the connection, not whether it's different in fiction.
Even calling it “Lost Cause narrative” feels weird. Are you letting the confederates own an entire sub-genre of rebellion stories? I wouldn’t give them that kind of power.
How is identifying a specific theme giving "them" power? As if not pointing it out would erase it? The sub-genre of rebellion stories here are only the Confederate Lost Cause ones, not all rebellions, not all westerns. It's silly to suggest that by saying "hey, the guy that said he was inspired by a civil war book to write a Western that follows the same basic starting premise of Confederate westerns and I personally don't like that vibe" is giving anyone else power.
Honestly I don't think it is even thinly veiled. It starts with Mal as a devoted soldier on the losing side of a civil war, who gets disillusioned with god and country (metaphorically) after his...
Honestly I don't think it is even thinly veiled. It starts with Mal as a devoted soldier on the losing side of a civil war, who gets disillusioned with god and country (metaphorically) after his leaders capitulate. The civil war obviously references the US civil war especially in the costuming. But the war in Firefly is over about corporate domination and the browncoats aren't defending the dehumanisation and enslavement of others as crucial to their way of life. You could argue that Browncoats being the good guys romanticisizes the US Confederacy. But I think it is more about a guy who was in love with a political ideal and had that pulled out from under him, who is now trying to create something real based on the ideals that he thought he was fighting for.
Also it seems to me thematically to take from the Star Wars narrative more, even though it visually references the 19th century American west.
Interesting, I don't get Star Wars at all, it's much more Western than the Chosen One styled like Samurai (+ Vietnam war for the dogfighting) vibes of Star Wars IMO. At least until you get to...
Interesting, I don't get Star Wars at all, it's much more Western than the Chosen One styled like Samurai (+ Vietnam war for the dogfighting) vibes of Star Wars IMO. At least until you get to Mandolorian which is Lone Wolf and Cub + Western IMO. But at some point you edge ever closer to the monomyth (which I'm not an advocate for really) and there are overlaps.
I agree it's not about slavery. And the westerns weren't either, they focused on the hero having to start over after the tragedy of losing the war/family being killed, whatever and just focused on his positive aspects while making the former/current Union presence the enemies when applicable. So then remove that one step further, off earth into space and so the fight is different, etc. but the string still goes back to that Lost Cause Confederate plot with new scene dressing.
It's something I didn't notice then and do notice now. And now I'm not as excited to see more of is all.
To me, maybe being raised in the south, the "Lost Cause" is all about slavery. Folks waxing nostalgic about Dixie are 100% regretting they don't get to treat humans like chattel and dominate women...
To me, maybe being raised in the south, the "Lost Cause" is all about slavery. Folks waxing nostalgic about Dixie are 100% regretting they don't get to treat humans like chattel and dominate women who are forced into subservience. And many US western movies and TVs may not have explicitly stated that, but they still have their "heroes" acting out fantasies of racial and gender superiority. Whedon was influenced by The Lost Cause, but in Firefly it's just a lost cause. To me that matters.
That said the points you make about the absence of Asians--that bothered me when I first saw it. And especially in retrospect, Inara. I would love to see Firefly done by someone who wasn't a white straight man. Like even when I thought he was trying, (and maybe he never was) he was always constricted by his own worldview-- I felt like that with Buffy, too. The white male gaze seemed even more out of place because it seemed like he was trying to escape it. So much for what I thought I knew!
When I was younger, I sort of head canon that Asians live in a part of the universe the story didn't take place in....but why the heck not. We know Asians are some of the hardiest, most resilient...
absence of Asians
When I was younger, I sort of head canon that Asians live in a part of the universe the story didn't take place in....but why the heck not. We know Asians are some of the hardiest, most resilient and go far and wide peoples. We'd be friggin everywhere. I don't remember seeing a lot of East Asians, I can't remember if the show has South Asians and Southeastern Asians? Maybe there are a lot of Indian and Eurasian people and I'm the racist jerk who assumed everyone to be Caucasian. But.... Probably not?
That's part of the reason I always appreciate how crazy ahead of the times Big Trouble In Little China was. Most of the cast is of Chinese descent, I could actually understand the Cantonese spoken on screen, and the whole thing being a weird mystic adventure didn't feel out of place or token or "exotic" -- Kurt Russell found himself in a completely different culture entirely that looks convincingly lived in and thriving even when the white man isn't visiting.
I kinda wish Firefly could have been that immersive, where audiences find themselves immersed in a full culture instead of something that best resembles my highschool Weeaboo "everyone gets called -san" days: not wrong or disrespectful but definitely an infatuated tourist looking in and borrowing random cool parts kind of way. It's the difference between visiting Chinatown ordering "Lucky Set A", and spending a few weeks in a specific city in Asia.
... what sort of a source is admissible for literary criticism? Like, should someone hook Joss Whedon up to a lie detector and waterboard him? "Tell me where the fascists are!! Were the Hands of...
... what sort of a source is admissible for literary criticism? Like, should someone hook Joss Whedon up to a lie detector and waterboard him? "Tell me where the fascists are!! Were the Hands of Blue an allegory?!?!"
I don't follow American history, so here's a quote about the "Lost Cause" trope, for anyone in the audience to whom that reference went over their head as well.
The great lie of the Lost Cause was that the eleven Confederate states seceded from the Union not to preserve slavery but to defend states’ rights and the Southern way of life. It calls the North the aggressor: its big-city capitalist elites were accused of trying to bend the Southern plantation economy to their will. The chivalrous South only lost the war because its noble troops and generals, in particular Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, were overwhelmed by the drilled and mechanized armies of the North, who were led by men of low moral standards, such as Ulysses Grant and William Sherman. (Never Was Mag, "Lost Cause: Genre Trope to Avoid")
Let's not forget that the only characters that are supposed to be Chinese in any way, are both performed by strictly white actors, in stereotypical roles (Doctor and Kung Fu master). Or the thinly...
Let's not forget that the only characters that are supposed to be Chinese in any way, are both performed by strictly white actors, in stereotypical roles (Doctor and Kung Fu master).
Or the thinly veiled Reaver/"savage natives" allegory, due to being a "Western in space".
The more you actually think about what's on screen with Firefly, the more problems it reveals.
I totally agree that the lack of real Asian influence and presence is just absurd, even within the story's own logic. But while I can see the reavers as filling the "savage native" slot required...
I totally agree that the lack of real Asian influence and presence is just absurd, even within the story's own logic. But while I can see the reavers as filling the "savage native" slot required if you are following the western tv show playbook, they are not indigenous or even a particular race or ethnicity, so if anything, I'd call that an improvement on the expected trope.
Why would this be a problem? I always thought it hints towards a future where China has become so significant that the language has received a place as lingua franca.
speaking Chinese without any Chinese people
Why would this be a problem? I always thought it hints towards a future where China has become so significant that the language has received a place as lingua franca.
Yeah, you'd think then there might be some Chinese people the 'verse then. It does hint towards that future and then does nothing with it.
Why would this be a problem? I thought it hints towards a future where China has become so significant that the language has received a place as lingua franca.
Yeah, you'd think then there might be some Chinese people the 'verse then. It does hint towards that future and then does nothing with it.
I'm not sure if this question is an honest one, but I'll bite. The Chinese language implies Chinese people exist in the universe, as do all of the other cultural trappings of clothes, color...
I'm not sure if this question is an honest one, but I'll bite.
The Chinese language implies Chinese people exist in the universe, as do all of the other cultural trappings of clothes, color palette, etc. The fact that there are no notable Chinese people in the universe to speak of, in a universe full of their culture, is a picture-perfect example of cultural appropriation at best, and white washing at worse.
There's another term that could be used here, to an extent - "yellow face".
Idk, I can only speak to my personal experience, but it felt like the opposite. The idea that something Chinese culture could become hegemonic was unthinkinable in most western media. Actually...
The fact that there are no notable Chinese people in the universe to speak of, in a universe full of their culture, is a picture-perfect example of cultural appropriation at best, and white washing at worse.
Idk, I can only speak to my personal experience, but it felt like the opposite. The idea that something Chinese culture could become hegemonic was unthinkinable in most western media. Actually seeing Chinese in the world building in this fundamental way felt like one of the first non-token representations in a major TV show.
It didn't feel like "appropriating" something from me, but actually acknowledging that it exists and can be in a powerful position.
It is the definition of token Asian themes, imo. There was no "Chinese" in the world building. There was Mandarin language, there was Chinese clothing and style and color palettes, but there were...
It is the definition of token Asian themes, imo.
There was no "Chinese" in the world building. There was Mandarin language, there was Chinese clothing and style and color palettes, but there were zero actual Chinese people.
It was a future about Chinese people, without them present in it. It's the definition of appropriation.
That's what cultural hegemony looks like. You can go to Nigeria today and people are speaking English, drinking Coca Cola, wearing jeans, with no Americans in sight.
That's what cultural hegemony looks like. You can go to Nigeria today and people are speaking English, drinking Coca Cola, wearing jeans, with no Americans in sight.
But there wasn't Chinese cultural hegemony in play in Firefly. It was a cooperative between major powers - the USA and China. Per https://firefly.fandom.com/wiki/Language : Not to mention, when it...
But there wasn't Chinese cultural hegemony in play in Firefly. It was a cooperative between major powers - the USA and China.
In the effort to find a new home for humanity, the primary powers of the era - the United States of America and the People's Republic of China - worked together to create the necessary technology, manpower, and logistics for the largest migration of people ever known.
Not to mention, when it comes to cultural representation in media made in The United States, who is represented and how is important. When you explicitly state that the USA and China worked together to do something, there should be, y'know, Chinese people. Not just their language (and not just curse words), not just their clothes, but their people.
I understand your point - that culture crosses borders and mixes in various ways - but the significance of representation in media matters. Consider the opposite of your example - if a futuristic depiction of Nigerian culture came to be shown on screen, but involved no Nigerian people, what would you think?
Why not just use the current hypothetical? I'm Chinese, and Firefly was a show with "Chinese" themes and no Chinese people and I was absolutely fine with it. It did not feel impossible for there...
Consider the opposite of your example - if a futuristic depiction of Nigerian culture came to be shown on screen, but involved no Nigerian people, what would you think?
Why not just use the current hypothetical? I'm Chinese, and Firefly was a show with "Chinese" themes and no Chinese people and I was absolutely fine with it. It did not feel impossible for there to be large sectors of the universe with mainly white people, and the existence of Chinese themes never felt like "stealing" - if anything, I was more glad it was there than if it wasn't.
I can emphasize more with cultural appropriation and like, native americans, since their culture is actively dying, no small part due to the Americans calling their teams "chiefs", but it's just very different with "China".
I agree with this. I want to throw out my values and say "it was a different time, and maybe with more seasons we would have gotten more representation" but it's also good to just accept TV & film...
I agree with this. I want to throw out my values and say "it was a different time, and maybe with more seasons we would have gotten more representation" but it's also good to just accept TV & film has permitted a lot of perverse outcomes and we can always do better.
Yeah, we can come up with a bunch of reasons why there aren't any Asians on screen, but at the end of the day, it wasn't a worldbuilding choice to exclude Asian actors, and any in-universe...
Yeah, we can come up with a bunch of reasons why there aren't any Asians on screen, but at the end of the day, it wasn't a worldbuilding choice to exclude Asian actors, and any in-universe explanation is just a convenient excuse around that fact.
I didn't see it as a problem then (and for its time, this was extremely normal), but it's been 25 years and I hope that this new series makes a better effort at representation.
A future in which China is so influential that it's part of the lingua franca but in which there are inexplicably no Chinese people is at minimum questionable worldbuilding, though.
A future in which China is so influential that it's part of the lingua franca but in which there are inexplicably no Chinese people is at minimum questionable worldbuilding, though.
Agreed. I've seen what happens when a show or movie I like has some extra continuation tacked on too many times to be completely on board, and putting this in between the show and the movie...
Agreed. I've seen what happens when a show or movie I like has some extra continuation tacked on too many times to be completely on board, and putting this in between the show and the movie doesn't give a whole lot of room for places they can go. Plus there's the Adam Baldwin of it all, but that's probably a non-negotiable for a reunion reboot deal.
I know about Joss Whedon and I’m glad he’s not involved (yet curious about the legal means by which a new group can take control of his creation)… but I’m not familiar with Adam Baldwin being...
I know about Joss Whedon and I’m glad he’s not involved (yet curious about the legal means by which a new group can take control of his creation)… but I’m not familiar with Adam Baldwin being problematic. What’s that about?
In general I’m pleased to see a 100% full cast reunion, minus Ron Glass, RIP. It would be fun to hear Mark Sheppard and Christina Hendricks come back as guests too. I’m probably forgetting some of the other side characters, it’s been a while.
I do think the success of this will rest on the strength of the writing, and I share @sparkle’s reservations about the team that’s been announced. Despite everything else, Whedon was very deft with world-building, character development, and witty dialogue. I’m not sure if the new torch-bearers will be able to continue with the same finesse. I’m also curious what it’s going to look like; the quality of the animation is just as capable of making or breaking this.
Largely, he's a conservative with all the typical conservative views. Making bigoted comments and deadnaming transgender people. He may or may not have coined the term "Gamergate", but he...
I’m not familiar with Adam Baldwin being problematic. What’s that about?
He would also respond to people criticizing his comments (such as comparing same sex marriage to a father marrying his son for tax benefits) with personal insults, mostly about their weight and...
He would also respond to people criticizing his comments (such as comparing same sex marriage to a father marrying his son for tax benefits) with personal insults, mostly about their weight and appearance. It's just bullying behavior that even if his politics were different is a turn off from a fan perspective.
Doubtful: there was a segment between him and Nathan in one of the recent "reunion teaser" shorts. I am conflicted, because I really liked him as The Hero Of Canton.
Doubtful: there was a segment between him and Nathan in one of the recent "reunion teaser" shorts.
I am conflicted, because I really liked him as The Hero Of Canton.
As a youth (10+ years ago), I followed the cast of Firefly on Twitter. I promise if you had done that, you would not be wondering. Even back then, before most of the major controversies afaik, it...
but I’m not familiar with Adam Baldwin being problematic. What’s that about?
As a youth (10+ years ago), I followed the cast of Firefly on Twitter. I promise if you had done that, you would not be wondering. Even back then, before most of the major controversies afaik, it was pretty loud conservative nonsense.
I'm pretty sure he's in, based on the short I saw on Youtube: https://youtu.be/5U1o3PiYj0k Is there something I should know about him? Edit found it in this comment Aside: I appreciate the gag of...
Plus there's the Adam Baldwin of it all, but that's probably a non-negotiable for a reunion reboot deal.
Aside: I appreciate the gag of Nathan Fillion and Morena Baccarin both being in their respective cop show costumes. Reminds me of the Halloween episode of Castle where he dressed up as a "space cowboy".
Well this doesn't give me great hope. Almost as red-flaggy as finding out the Shannara TV series would be airing on MTV. At least the first two seasons of Arrow weren't awful, but it's one of the...
Married writing-producing team Marc Guggenheim (DC’s Legends of Tomorrow, Arrow)
Well this doesn't give me great hope. Almost as red-flaggy as finding out the Shannara TV series would be airing on MTV. At least the first two seasons of Arrow weren't awful, but it's one of the few shows I've stopped watching mid-way because it became unbearable.
It doesn't sound like they'll be adapting any existing work as the comics only cover post-Serenity if I recall (maybe some flashbacks) and this series will take place between Firefly and Serenity? Sounds safer as audiences are more familiar with it. The comics weren't particularly great anyway.
Personally I'm actually happy with the brief time we got in the 'verse. When I was younger I wanted more but now that I look back, I'm more of the mind that it ended in a good place. Maybe one more season would have been ok but I fear it would have rapidly gone downhill and then it would go the way of GoT.
I've also personally been getting real tired of all the "nostalgia porn", for lack of a better term. Capitalism ruined Hollywood by incentivizing only making safe stuff. Nobody wants to take a gamble on anything and create something truly unique. But I suppose I'm not the target audience so I'll go back in my curmudgeonly corner >:)
You're right, I shouldn't have spoken in the absolute there. I've not seen Severance so I can't comment on it, but Apple TV has really been hitting it out of the park with their sci-fi. A lot of...
You're right, I shouldn't have spoken in the absolute there. I've not seen Severance so I can't comment on it, but Apple TV has really been hitting it out of the park with their sci-fi. A lot of really unique and well done programming with sometimes risky ideas find a good home there. They're the exception to what has sadly become the rule though.
On Prime, The Expanse, Man in the High Castle, the Fallout series were pretty good and unique as well. The Boys is also significantly better than the comics it's based off of, even it also relies...
On Prime, The Expanse, Man in the High Castle, the Fallout series were pretty good and unique as well. The Boys is also significantly better than the comics it's based off of, even it also relies on shock to a degree.
I feel like you could go through every service and name some real gems. The complaint of "oh everything is the same now" just feels sus to me - it reminds me of
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers
as something that everyone always says about the present.
I thought Main in the High Castle started off really, really well, but I just fell away after the first season and, despite trying, could never get back into it. I'm not even sure how many seasons...
I thought Main in the High Castle started off really, really well, but I just fell away after the first season and, despite trying, could never get back into it. I'm not even sure how many seasons it finally ended up with. Did that dip exist, in your opinion and if so did it recover back to its previous high level at some later point?
I think that the episode the show ended on is actually a really solid ending tbh. That it's just a regular mid-season episode makes that all the more a happy coincidence. But I found Serenity...
I think that the episode the show ended on is actually a really solid ending tbh. That it's just a regular mid-season episode makes that all the more a happy coincidence.
But I found Serenity pretty mid-at-best compared to the show and disliked it as a continuation/ending so.
A cartoon that doesn't correct the mistake of killing Wash, that doesn't have a home or an order to production, that still includes Adam Baldwin? And it's about an IP I haven't seriously engaged...
A cartoon that doesn't correct the mistake of killing Wash, that doesn't have a home or an order to production, that still includes Adam Baldwin? And it's about an IP I haven't seriously engaged with in 20 years? I think I'll pass, thanks.
Not a narrative purpose, but according to Wikipedia:
Not a narrative purpose, but according to Wikipedia:
All nine principal cast members from the television series were scheduled to return for the movie, but Glass and Tudyk could not commit to sequels, leading to the death of their characters in the second draft of the script.
Wash got shishkabab'd for almost no reason that I can see, other than causing Zoey to do a dumb thing later that gets her hurt and sets up Summer to do her Murder Waif bit on the Reavers and...
Wash got shishkabab'd for almost no reason that I can see, other than causing Zoey to do a dumb thing later that gets her hurt and sets up Summer to do her Murder Waif bit on the Reavers and neutralize them. Genuinely don't think Wash needed to die to encourage her to get hurt later and need the medkit that Simon had dropped behind them in the room filling up with Reavers.
Its good Whedon isn't involved, his vision for the show - being a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space, speaking Chinese without any Chinese people, and specifically his plans for Inara - is better left in the past.
I am not sure that this will be good...but it falls into a "just don't watch" if I don't want to. I am not nearly as excited as I would have been 20 years ago.
Edit: I'm not apologizing for criticizing the problematic nostalgic fave and I'm not backing off of mentioning topics of race, history and identity, but fuck this is the most exhausting thing about being here. I'm out of this thread.
Is there an actual source for this claim?
And I do mean an actual source. I've already suffered through reading the blog posts and social media comments that amount to "westerns are set after the Civil War and Firefly is a space western set after a civil war". An analysis I find unconvincing.
He was reading The Killer Angels
A Classic Civil War Novel Served As Joss Whedon's Inspiration For Firefly
2002 interview
So sure he elaborated on "early frontier life" but the book is about the Battle of Gettysburg, not old school westerns and not early frontier life. So, what did inspire him?
A lot of westerns around the same time did focus on the Confederate soldier fleeing from the Union, starting over in the "wild west" though. And there's a really clear through line from one to the next. It's not that they're set after the civil war, it's that the protagonist and his personal conflict is often directly tied to the war. Think the Outlaw Josey Wales.
He also named the character of Jubal Early, a real life Confederate general and featured in the book, (in part because Fillion is a descendant) which I think makes it clear that the Confederacy is explicitly on his mind.
That btw doesn't even start with all the textual examples in the show.
I'm not saying Whedon was like "whoohoo slavery." I'm saying his narrative aligned with those Confederate westerns and he stated he was explicitly inspired by a Civil War novel while naming a notable character after a Confederate general. Lost Cause narratives focus on the loyalty and toughness of their (former) Confederate characters. They lost but they lost for the cause they believed in, their country and fellow men.
The show was fun, but with more media literacy now than I had then, I'm less excited about that narrative. As I'm less excited about his views on and portrayals of women. Maybe he'd have been able to do something interesting with the LC style narrative, but based on the bits of plot plans released I don't really have high hopes.
ETA: also as noted by another poster, this is indeed literary criticism. I'm calling it a Lost Cause narrative; so while I can provide evidence that supports that, and did, the source is also DefinitelyNotAFae on the ides of March in the 4.5 billionth year (est.) of this planet's existence
I don't think any of that makes Firefly "a thinly veiled Confederate Lost Cause in space".
What are missing are any elements in Firefly that actually espouse Confederate values.
I'm struggling to see things your way for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is that the protagonists of the show are regularly depicted as being opposed to various forms of servitude, including slavery. I get that (especially in the beginning) Mal and the crew are depicted as morally gray and otherwise just trying to survive, not right the wrongs of their world (because, you know, they fought and lost a war over that already). However, as the story progresses, it becomes clear that the crew still have a sense of justice and want to do good (and they do!).
The protagonists fought and lost a war against the Alliance, and Whedon was inspired by narratives from the Civil War like basically every other Westerns author (space or otherwise), but...
None of that automatically makes the show a "Lost Cause narrative", primarily because the show does not actually depict or espouse any values from the Lost Cause.
I like the way @ahatlikethat put it in another comment:
You can say this about almost any defeated force in history. Narrative attempts to reframe defeat so that it's easier to swallow are the norm. The show depicts Mal and crew as loyal, tough, and having believed in the cause they fought for... but what else would you expect? Maybe if they were the bad guys in that war there would be room for good criticism (and probably a much more interesting story actually), but they weren't.
"Firefly is a Lost Cause narrative" seems like a tortured interpretation that relies more on the circumstances of Whedon's inspirations for the show's setting, than any actual content of the show itself. No thanks, I think that sort of analysis is uninteresting and incomplete.
I prefer to interpret media by what it actually depicts. What its story and characters say and do. The web of inspirations that lead to a work's creation and setting are important; we should not ignore that, but it is not determinant of what the work itself is or means.
That feels fine to me. The narrative of a just rebellion who loses to the empire due to disloyal leaders is a classic one, something that has happened and has been written about numerous times. Lost cause didn’t invent it, they co-opted such a narrative because it is a strong story with universal appeal, so a good candidate to paper over your sins.
The issue with the lost cause narrative is that it’s trying to override history to defend a rebellion that started over chattel slavery.
Firefly is pure fiction. It’s not trying to override real history. If Whedon was inspired by the vibes of lost cause media, to me, that is completely acceptable so long as the fiction itself is not trying to argue that chattel slavery is good. And, while it’s been a while since I watched it, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. Being fiction, you can make the rebels actually just and the empire actually bad.
Even calling it “Lost Cause narrative” feels weird. Are you letting the confederates own an entire sub-genre of rebellion stories? I wouldn’t give them that kind of power.
That feels like saying “Harry Potter narrative” instead of “coming of age story”.
Ok, I said given that narrative I'm not so excited to see it come back. It can feel fine to you or not, as you like.
Yes.
He can be inspired by whatever he likes, obviously. But it seems he was in fact inspired by this thing so I'm pointing out this thing that inspired him. I do know how fiction works. Since it apparently needs said: I enjoyed the show, I watched the show repeatedly. I am not interested in more of that narrative in 2026 and I'm glad Whedon isn't involved in the show in 2026.
But the person was doubting the connection, not whether it's different in fiction.
How is identifying a specific theme giving "them" power? As if not pointing it out would erase it? The sub-genre of rebellion stories here are only the Confederate Lost Cause ones, not all rebellions, not all westerns. It's silly to suggest that by saying "hey, the guy that said he was inspired by a civil war book to write a Western that follows the same basic starting premise of Confederate westerns and I personally don't like that vibe" is giving anyone else power.
Honestly I don't think it is even thinly veiled. It starts with Mal as a devoted soldier on the losing side of a civil war, who gets disillusioned with god and country (metaphorically) after his leaders capitulate. The civil war obviously references the US civil war especially in the costuming. But the war in Firefly is over about corporate domination and the browncoats aren't defending the dehumanisation and enslavement of others as crucial to their way of life. You could argue that Browncoats being the good guys romanticisizes the US Confederacy. But I think it is more about a guy who was in love with a political ideal and had that pulled out from under him, who is now trying to create something real based on the ideals that he thought he was fighting for.
Also it seems to me thematically to take from the Star Wars narrative more, even though it visually references the 19th century American west.
Interesting, I don't get Star Wars at all, it's much more Western than the Chosen One styled like Samurai (+ Vietnam war for the dogfighting) vibes of Star Wars IMO. At least until you get to Mandolorian which is Lone Wolf and Cub + Western IMO. But at some point you edge ever closer to the monomyth (which I'm not an advocate for really) and there are overlaps.
I agree it's not about slavery. And the westerns weren't either, they focused on the hero having to start over after the tragedy of losing the war/family being killed, whatever and just focused on his positive aspects while making the former/current Union presence the enemies when applicable. So then remove that one step further, off earth into space and so the fight is different, etc. but the string still goes back to that Lost Cause Confederate plot with new scene dressing.
It's something I didn't notice then and do notice now. And now I'm not as excited to see more of is all.
To me, maybe being raised in the south, the "Lost Cause" is all about slavery. Folks waxing nostalgic about Dixie are 100% regretting they don't get to treat humans like chattel and dominate women who are forced into subservience. And many US western movies and TVs may not have explicitly stated that, but they still have their "heroes" acting out fantasies of racial and gender superiority. Whedon was influenced by The Lost Cause, but in Firefly it's just a lost cause. To me that matters.
That said the points you make about the absence of Asians--that bothered me when I first saw it. And especially in retrospect, Inara. I would love to see Firefly done by someone who wasn't a white straight man. Like even when I thought he was trying, (and maybe he never was) he was always constricted by his own worldview-- I felt like that with Buffy, too. The white male gaze seemed even more out of place because it seemed like he was trying to escape it. So much for what I thought I knew!
When I was younger, I sort of head canon that Asians live in a part of the universe the story didn't take place in....but why the heck not. We know Asians are some of the hardiest, most resilient and go far and wide peoples. We'd be friggin everywhere. I don't remember seeing a lot of East Asians, I can't remember if the show has South Asians and Southeastern Asians? Maybe there are a lot of Indian and Eurasian people and I'm the racist jerk who assumed everyone to be Caucasian. But.... Probably not?
That's part of the reason I always appreciate how crazy ahead of the times Big Trouble In Little China was. Most of the cast is of Chinese descent, I could actually understand the Cantonese spoken on screen, and the whole thing being a weird mystic adventure didn't feel out of place or token or "exotic" -- Kurt Russell found himself in a completely different culture entirely that looks convincingly lived in and thriving even when the white man isn't visiting.
I kinda wish Firefly could have been that immersive, where audiences find themselves immersed in a full culture instead of something that best resembles my highschool Weeaboo "everyone gets called -san" days: not wrong or disrespectful but definitely an infatuated tourist looking in and borrowing random cool parts kind of way. It's the difference between visiting Chinatown ordering "Lucky Set A", and spending a few weeks in a specific city in Asia.
... what sort of a source is admissible for literary criticism? Like, should someone hook Joss Whedon up to a lie detector and waterboard him? "Tell me where the fascists are!! Were the Hands of Blue an allegory?!?!"
I don't follow American history, so here's a quote about the "Lost Cause" trope, for anyone in the audience to whom that reference went over their head as well.
Let's not forget that the only characters that are supposed to be Chinese in any way, are both performed by strictly white actors, in stereotypical roles (Doctor and Kung Fu master).
Or the thinly veiled Reaver/"savage natives" allegory, due to being a "Western in space".
The more you actually think about what's on screen with Firefly, the more problems it reveals.
I totally agree that the lack of real Asian influence and presence is just absurd, even within the story's own logic. But while I can see the reavers as filling the "savage native" slot required if you are following the western tv show playbook, they are not indigenous or even a particular race or ethnicity, so if anything, I'd call that an improvement on the expected trope.
An improvement over a racist trope is still using a racist trope, imo.
Except, not racist.
Yep, it was definitely of its time and better for being shorter in retrospect.
Why would this be a problem? I always thought it hints towards a future where China has become so significant that the language has received a place as lingua franca.
Yeah, you'd think then there might be some Chinese people the 'verse then. It does hint towards that future and then does nothing with it.
I'm not sure if this question is an honest one, but I'll bite.
The Chinese language implies Chinese people exist in the universe, as do all of the other cultural trappings of clothes, color palette, etc. The fact that there are no notable Chinese people in the universe to speak of, in a universe full of their culture, is a picture-perfect example of cultural appropriation at best, and white washing at worse.
There's another term that could be used here, to an extent - "yellow face".
Idk, I can only speak to my personal experience, but it felt like the opposite. The idea that something Chinese culture could become hegemonic was unthinkinable in most western media. Actually seeing Chinese in the world building in this fundamental way felt like one of the first non-token representations in a major TV show.
It didn't feel like "appropriating" something from me, but actually acknowledging that it exists and can be in a powerful position.
It is the definition of token Asian themes, imo.
There was no "Chinese" in the world building. There was Mandarin language, there was Chinese clothing and style and color palettes, but there were zero actual Chinese people.
It was a future about Chinese people, without them present in it. It's the definition of appropriation.
That's what cultural hegemony looks like. You can go to Nigeria today and people are speaking English, drinking Coca Cola, wearing jeans, with no Americans in sight.
But there wasn't Chinese cultural hegemony in play in Firefly. It was a cooperative between major powers - the USA and China.
Per https://firefly.fandom.com/wiki/Language :
Not to mention, when it comes to cultural representation in media made in The United States, who is represented and how is important. When you explicitly state that the USA and China worked together to do something, there should be, y'know, Chinese people. Not just their language (and not just curse words), not just their clothes, but their people.
I understand your point - that culture crosses borders and mixes in various ways - but the significance of representation in media matters. Consider the opposite of your example - if a futuristic depiction of Nigerian culture came to be shown on screen, but involved no Nigerian people, what would you think?
Why not just use the current hypothetical? I'm Chinese, and Firefly was a show with "Chinese" themes and no Chinese people and I was absolutely fine with it. It did not feel impossible for there to be large sectors of the universe with mainly white people, and the existence of Chinese themes never felt like "stealing" - if anything, I was more glad it was there than if it wasn't.
I can emphasize more with cultural appropriation and like, native americans, since their culture is actively dying, no small part due to the Americans calling their teams "chiefs", but it's just very different with "China".
My family is also Chinese, and they're of mixed opinions on Firefly, if they have opinions at all.
Lots of opinions.
I agree with this. I want to throw out my values and say "it was a different time, and maybe with more seasons we would have gotten more representation" but it's also good to just accept TV & film has permitted a lot of perverse outcomes and we can always do better.
Yeah, we can come up with a bunch of reasons why there aren't any Asians on screen, but at the end of the day, it wasn't a worldbuilding choice to exclude Asian actors, and any in-universe explanation is just a convenient excuse around that fact.
I didn't see it as a problem then (and for its time, this was extremely normal), but it's been 25 years and I hope that this new series makes a better effort at representation.
A future in which China is so influential that it's part of the lingua franca but in which there are inexplicably no Chinese people is at minimum questionable worldbuilding, though.
Agreed. I've seen what happens when a show or movie I like has some extra continuation tacked on too many times to be completely on board, and putting this in between the show and the movie doesn't give a whole lot of room for places they can go. Plus there's the Adam Baldwin of it all, but that's probably a non-negotiable for a reunion reboot deal.
I know about Joss Whedon and I’m glad he’s not involved (yet curious about the legal means by which a new group can take control of his creation)… but I’m not familiar with Adam Baldwin being problematic. What’s that about?
In general I’m pleased to see a 100% full cast reunion, minus Ron Glass, RIP. It would be fun to hear Mark Sheppard and Christina Hendricks come back as guests too. I’m probably forgetting some of the other side characters, it’s been a while.
I do think the success of this will rest on the strength of the writing, and I share @sparkle’s reservations about the team that’s been announced. Despite everything else, Whedon was very deft with world-building, character development, and witty dialogue. I’m not sure if the new torch-bearers will be able to continue with the same finesse. I’m also curious what it’s going to look like; the quality of the animation is just as capable of making or breaking this.
I hope it’s great.
Largely, he's a conservative with all the typical conservative views. Making bigoted comments and deadnaming transgender people. He may or may not have coined the term "Gamergate", but he certainly popularized it.
He's been pretty quiet lately, or at least been staying out of the news. I haven't heard much recently, which is probably for the best.
He would also respond to people criticizing his comments (such as comparing same sex marriage to a father marrying his son for tax benefits) with personal insults, mostly about their weight and appearance. It's just bullying behavior that even if his politics were different is a turn off from a fan perspective.
Thanks for the context. Maybe they'll give him the "Chevy Chase in Community" treatment, lol.
Doubtful: there was a segment between him and Nathan in one of the recent "reunion teaser" shorts.
I am conflicted, because I really liked him as The Hero Of Canton.
As a youth (10+ years ago), I followed the cast of Firefly on Twitter. I promise if you had done that, you would not be wondering. Even back then, before most of the major controversies afaik, it was pretty loud conservative nonsense.
To the point that the some of the other cast mates had to unfollow him, back when people spoke to each other only publicly on Twitter.
I'm pretty sure he's in, based on the short I saw on Youtube: https://youtu.be/5U1o3PiYj0k
Is there something I should know about him? Edit found it in this comment
Aside: I appreciate the gag of Nathan Fillion and Morena Baccarin both being in their respective cop show costumes. Reminds me of the Halloween episode of Castle where he dressed up as a "space cowboy".
I'm in.
Sure, I could adopt a cynical attitude and think about all the ways it could go wrong. But I am ready to believe in something magical.
Well this doesn't give me great hope. Almost as red-flaggy as finding out the Shannara TV series would be airing on MTV. At least the first two seasons of Arrow weren't awful, but it's one of the few shows I've stopped watching mid-way because it became unbearable.
It doesn't sound like they'll be adapting any existing work as the comics only cover post-Serenity if I recall (maybe some flashbacks) and this series will take place between Firefly and Serenity? Sounds safer as audiences are more familiar with it. The comics weren't particularly great anyway.
Personally I'm actually happy with the brief time we got in the 'verse. When I was younger I wanted more but now that I look back, I'm more of the mind that it ended in a good place. Maybe one more season would have been ok but I fear it would have rapidly gone downhill and then it would go the way of GoT.
I've also personally been getting real tired of all the "nostalgia porn", for lack of a better term. Capitalism ruined Hollywood by incentivizing only making safe stuff. Nobody wants to take a gamble on anything and create something truly unique. But I suppose I'm not the target audience so I'll go back in my curmudgeonly corner >:)
You don't think shows like Severance or Pluribus had unique elements?
You're right, I shouldn't have spoken in the absolute there. I've not seen Severance so I can't comment on it, but Apple TV has really been hitting it out of the park with their sci-fi. A lot of really unique and well done programming with sometimes risky ideas find a good home there. They're the exception to what has sadly become the rule though.
On Prime, The Expanse, Man in the High Castle, the Fallout series were pretty good and unique as well. The Boys is also significantly better than the comics it's based off of, even it also relies on shock to a degree.
I feel like you could go through every service and name some real gems. The complaint of "oh everything is the same now" just feels sus to me - it reminds me of
as something that everyone always says about the present.
I thought Main in the High Castle started off really, really well, but I just fell away after the first season and, despite trying, could never get back into it. I'm not even sure how many seasons it finally ended up with. Did that dip exist, in your opinion and if so did it recover back to its previous high level at some later point?
Maybe you mean the movie, but the show just abruptly ends on a completely regular mid season episode.
Ah I meant more a good place in time, not necessarily a good place in the story.
I think that the episode the show ended on is actually a really solid ending tbh. That it's just a regular mid-season episode makes that all the more a happy coincidence.
But I found Serenity pretty mid-at-best compared to the show and disliked it as a continuation/ending so.
I want to believe (wrong show) but I also feel like it is better to let it be what it is, and let what it could have been live in our imaginations.
A cartoon that doesn't correct the mistake of killing Wash, that doesn't have a home or an order to production, that still includes Adam Baldwin? And it's about an IP I haven't seriously engaged with in 20 years? I think I'll pass, thanks.
I never understood why Wash died, either. It served no narrative purpose.
Not a narrative purpose, but according to Wikipedia:
Wash got shishkabab'd for almost no reason that I can see, other than causing Zoey to do a dumb thing later that gets her hurt and sets up Summer to do her Murder Waif bit on the Reavers and neutralize them. Genuinely don't think Wash needed to die to encourage her to get hurt later and need the medkit that Simon had dropped behind them in the room filling up with Reavers.