It makes it sound like they are cutting down trees purely for use as pulp. Most of what a pulp mill uses is a byproduct of creating lumber or from tree farms. Since lumber is worth more than pulp,...
It makes it sound like they are cutting down trees purely for use as pulp. Most of what a pulp mill uses is a byproduct of creating lumber or from tree farms. Since lumber is worth more than pulp, no one is going to turn good trees into pulp if they can just buy sawdust and poor quality trees from sawmills for cheap. It'd be like using Ahi Tuna for fertilizer.
Yes, we should use bidets more, honestly wish it were popular since I live in an apartment and can't modify my toilet. However, we are not deforesting Canada to make toilet paper and those who manage the forest know a lot more than these people seem to think. They really do take into account the environmental affect and the amount of forest cut down is minuscule compared to the total forestland and not even a fraction of what fires destroy every year. I should also add that a lot of wood from Canada goes overseas, especially further West, like BC. If the USA stopped importing altogether, it'd just go there instead. Not to mention it's a big income stream for Canada and not as harmful as those envirowakos think it is when managed properly.
On another note, who is using 57+ squares of TP a day?! Even adding in using it for facial tissues doesn't add up to a fraction of that for me. Am I that severely underestimating how much TP women use or is this counting something like exported toilet paper? I just can't fathom how there's so much used. Seems like misinformation to me.
You can add one of these (https://a.co/d/cJwAk5L) without modifying the toilet and it doesn’t need a power outlet. The water is cold, which might take some getting used to, but it is a powerful...
You can add one of these (https://a.co/d/cJwAk5L) without modifying the toilet and it doesn’t need a power outlet. The water is cold, which might take some getting used to, but it is a powerful stream and does a fantastic job. I have almost no handyman experience and was able to add it in about 40 minutes.
Oh wow, that's easier to do than I thought and the cold would be nice in summer. I could have sworn I looked at them a while back and they looked like a pain to install. This would take me 15...
Oh wow, that's easier to do than I thought and the cold would be nice in summer. I could have sworn I looked at them a while back and they looked like a pain to install. This would take me 15 minutes, depending on how hard the seat is to remove (some of them are a pain). Just turn the water off, drain the tank, unscrew the line & seat, add the parts (probably add plumbing tape), reattach the line & seat and turn the water back on.
I'll have to ask management if it'd be ok, they let me add a different shower head on the grounds that I replace the old one when I leave, so maybe that'll be ok too. :)
Thank you for this perspective, I had not considered it as a by-product instead of the main product! My emotions had already run wild at that point lol. You seem more knowledgeable on the topic,...
Thank you for this perspective, I had not considered it as a by-product instead of the main product! My emotions had already run wild at that point lol.
You seem more knowledgeable on the topic, but my understanding is that just re-planting trees after de-foresting old tree growth isn't really the equivalent of sustainable or responsible practices, but I'd be curious to know more about what practices are performed to strike some balance.
Virtual no logging happens in actual "old growth" forests. Managed logging happens periodically in a generally sustainable way, if we are talking about Canadian logging. Areas will be selectively...
Virtual no logging happens in actual "old growth" forests.
Managed logging happens periodically in a generally sustainable way, if we are talking about Canadian logging. Areas will be selectively logged (not clear but) on a decades-long rotation, with enough trees standing to provide at least minimal habitat to allow the local fauna to move to denser locations as they find desirable.
Modern forestry practices are pretty sophisticated and (in Canada at least) noone is slash-and-burn clear-cutting trees for any purpose, let alone to feed pulp mills
Like was said by Scirocco, these days old growth forests are not logged, being mostly protected (there are not many left). Areas being cut have been cut before and a lot of planning goes into...
Like was said by Scirocco, these days old growth forests are not logged, being mostly protected (there are not many left). Areas being cut have been cut before and a lot of planning goes into where, when and how to cut. They try to replicate a wildfire, which is how those forests are naturally thinned, so that recovery is as natural as possible. After a cut, the area is monitored to make sure it regrows properly and it takes decades to regrow in which time animals and plants that like open areas or young forests move in.
Of course it's not all great. They can't replicate nature perfectly as less nutrients are left behind, there's no fire for the plants that need fire to sprout, wildfires don't burn down the same area so often and the type they replant tend to be only trees valuable to loggers (less diversity, though they're working on that issue).
It would still be great to turn them all into old growth, I've read not giving things like mosses and fungi enough time to settle in makes the forests dryer and more prone to burning. Issue being they have to balance our need for lumber with protecting nature. Until lab grown wood is viable or we develop good alternatives for everything, we'll need lumber. The alternatives don't have the same properties as wood, some being less environmentally friendly like plastic and many being too expensive (hemp could be used to make TP if not for the price). We're developing alternatives, it'll just take time and we all should stay on top of what comes out to help support them when they become available. Which would include trying to get people to use bidets I suppose.
The article does mention lack of bidet adoption actually :) But meanwhile, there are steps to reduce toilet paper waste for those who won’t or can’t install a bidet.
The article does mention lack of bidet adoption actually :)
But meanwhile, there are steps to reduce toilet paper waste for those who won’t or can’t install a bidet.
I just learned that the average American uses 140 rolls a year?! That's 11.7 rolls a month. That sounds grotesque to me. I go through 2 a month at home. A 30-pack of TP from Costco sets me up for...
I just learned that the average American uses 140 rolls a year?! That's 11.7 rolls a month. That sounds grotesque to me.
I go through 2 a month at home. A 30-pack of TP from Costco sets me up for most of the year. I eat a high fiber diet, so my wiping needs are usually, ahem, minimal. Factoring my use of TP outside of home, I'm probably using 3~4 rolls a month. (Though I usually do my business at home right after morning coffee and rarely outside.) I can't fathom using nearly 2/5ths of a roll of TP per day.
I hate that I'm linking to this source, but I only found this when trying to fact check. The Federalist: No, The Average American Doesn’t Use Three Rolls Of Toilet Paper Per Week I had also gone...
I had also gone through this link, found the link to the NRDC paper, and from there found that their number was from a Statista graph (which they link), which has a note "Assuming one roll of toilet paper weighs 90g". I have Charmin Ultra Soft (2-ply) at home and a roll weighs 141g with 4g of it being the cardboard tube. So I didn't get to 227g like the Scotts brand supposedly is, but density per brand being different makes sense. Charmin and Scotts being common brands though, 90g seems very weird.
And according to the same graph that has Americans at 141 rolls, then Germans are at 134 and Brits at 127. Japan, with its high usage of bidets, comes in 4th at 91 rolls.
That can't possibly be right. 2.7 rolls a week for a single person is someone who's got major GI problems. Or they've buying those cheap ass single ply scrawny rolls. Maybe a household of 4? I too...
That can't possibly be right. 2.7 rolls a week for a single person is someone who's got major GI problems. Or they've buying those cheap ass single ply scrawny rolls. Maybe a household of 4?
I too get my TP from Costco (which is afaik unfortunately 0% recycled content) and it takes my 2 person household about 8-9 months to get through. And that was before I got a bidet seat.
I can only imagine they're counting each ply, but even using 3 ply I can't see someone using so much. You'd have to have the runs 24/7 to go through that much. There has to be other factors like...
I can only imagine they're counting each ply, but even using 3 ply I can't see someone using so much. You'd have to have the runs 24/7 to go through that much. There has to be other factors like people toilet papering houses on Halloween, exporting TP and other factors I apparently can't think of.
Half the population uses toilet paper every time they urinate. It's messy to pee out of a recessed area rather than a hose; liquid clings and runs along surfaces. Several handfuls of toilet paper...
Half the population uses toilet paper every time they urinate. It's messy to pee out of a recessed area rather than a hose; liquid clings and runs along surfaces. Several handfuls of toilet paper can be necessary, since each time you are absorbing liquid to do the entire cleanup, rather than wiping away a semisolid. Think the difference between cleaning up a spill of apple juice versus wiping away a glob of peanut butter. And needless to say, #1 is far more frequent than #2 over the course of the day.
I'm sorry but this is an absolutely absurd description lol. I promise you that it is significantly less messy to wipe after peeing as a vulva-haver than you describe and it certainly doesn't...
It's messy to pee out of a recessed area rather than a hose; liquid clings and runs along surfaces. Several handfuls of toilet paper can be necessary, since each time you are absorbing liquid to do the entire cleanup, rather than wiping away a semisolid.
I'm sorry but this is an absolutely absurd description lol. I promise you that it is significantly less messy to wipe after peeing as a vulva-haver than you describe and it certainly doesn't require more toilet paper than the average poo for the average person. The fact that you're absorbing liquid makes it easier, if anything, since you don't have any smearing problems -- this is a large part of why using a bidet allows most people to use less toilet paper after all, even if they need to wipe with toilet paper to dry off the water afterwards, and the relevant area there is much more recessed. The apple juice vs peanut butter comparison is apt, but you're taking the wrong lessons from that metaphor or picturing a very unrealistic quantity of liquid clinging to skin.
Now, menstrual bleeding on the other hand... that does often require several handfuls.
Bingo. I'm not using "several handfuls" for a typical wee. Also people should consider wiping their penises so they don't get that wet spot and washing their damn hands too.
Bingo. I'm not using "several handfuls" for a typical wee.
Also people should consider wiping their penises so they don't get that wet spot and washing their damn hands too.
Yeah I might use several squares for a pee, as I'm not super vigilant about not wasting toilet paper, but even with my tiny hands that doesn't constitute several handfuls.
Yeah I might use several squares for a pee, as I'm not super vigilant about not wasting toilet paper, but even with my tiny hands that doesn't constitute several handfuls.
Pee in the toilet! Sit down to pee! Take a load off! (Brought to you by men I've dated) But at least wash hands please, too many people seem to think it's unnecessary.
Pee in the toilet! Sit down to pee! Take a load off! (Brought to you by men I've dated)
But at least wash hands please, too many people seem to think it's unnecessary.
You can also pee in the stall while still standing and use the TP there. I used to get caught up in hypermasculinity and wanting to fit in, but honestly hated having to massage my taint to get the...
You can also pee in the stall while still standing and use the TP there. I used to get caught up in hypermasculinity and wanting to fit in, but honestly hated having to massage my taint to get the last drop out and still having the pee droplet remain in my undergarments. (Spoiler, no amount of shaking results in the same dryness as using TP, even with the taint milking). YMMV, but this is how my body works.
Dabbing with TP is life changing lol.
I can understand not wanting to wait for a stall though or wanting to keep the stall open for pooping, but yeah, try out the different forms of peeing. Sitting to pee is also great.
Not directed at you, but to pile on lol, yes anyone who thinks they do not have to wash their hands is misguided. Wash before and after. Soap Everytime. With friction. For a long time. Period. Full stop.
Honestly, I'm really curious why I should wash my hands after peeing as a penis-haver. I often walk into a bathroom without touching any surface (50% chance of a door handle or two), walk to a...
Honestly, I'm really curious why I should wash my hands after peeing as a penis-haver. I often walk into a bathroom without touching any surface (50% chance of a door handle or two), walk to a urinal, deploy the penis, piss, stow the penis, watch the urinal automatically flush, and... where have I dirtied my hands? Do we just assume that my penis is unclean? That seems fair if I'm hot and sweaty, but it always feels like a weird assumption when I'm just sitting/standing at a desk and walking around an office.
Honestly, the dirtiest surface I encounter in most bathroom visits is either the doorknob or the sink handle. And if I have to turn the sink off manually after cleaning my hands, I've just gotten them dirty again!
(FWIW I do usually wash my hands after peeing, but especially when I use a really dirty sink in an otherwise hands-free bathroom I tend to wonder if I'm better off never touching anything but my own body, including the sink)
You sweat even when you're not feeling sweaty, the outside of your pants has germs, there are micro droplets of urine both from urinating and the flushing in the air and on your hands, and since...
You sweat even when you're not feeling sweaty, the outside of your pants has germs, there are micro droplets of urine both from urinating and the flushing in the air and on your hands, and since you don't wipe there's urine on you and in the underwear for next time.
Shut the faucet off with a paper towel and use it to open the door on the way out. Elbows work in necessity.
Is this not really taught to men generally? I am being genuine.
It is. But I think some people get caught up in post hoc justification that then reinforces the behavior. <joke>I bet they also wear shoes inside their house too. </joke>
Is this not really taught to men generally? I am being genuine.
It is. But I think some people get caught up in post hoc justification that then reinforces the behavior.
<joke>I bet they also wear shoes inside their house too. </joke>
In all fairness, I try to wash my hands after peeing whenever possible. But having grown up someplace rural where I wound up peeing in the woods a lot, it does become a bit normalized when you...
In all fairness, I try to wash my hands after peeing whenever possible. But having grown up someplace rural where I wound up peeing in the woods a lot, it does become a bit normalized when you can't.
At least I'm not enough of a barbarian to wear shoes in the house. That's a bridge I'll never cross. I have movers coming soon and I find the necessity of them wearing shoes into both apartments awful enough!
"Picturing"? I'm going by a lifetime of experience and experimentation. I find this combative and dismissive attitude about my own experiences pretty strange and I wish you'd approached your...
"Picturing"? I'm going by a lifetime of experience and experimentation. I find this combative and dismissive attitude about my own experiences pretty strange and I wish you'd approached your response in the spirit of discussion rather than arguing.
I try to use as little toilet paper as possible, but in order for it not to get on my hands I do need a fair amount, and I need to repeat the process. How much is needed depends on the ply and absorbency of the paper itself, of course. With a good absorbent toilet paper, I might need only a few squares each pass, but the toilet paper found in cheap public restrooms, for instance, needs a larger number of squares. That's why I mentioned the absorbency issue versus wiping a semisolid. (Perhaps my use of "handful" made you picture something more specific about the size of the wad of paper?)
We must have very different private areas, because for me the front is more recessed when wiping, with far more wrinkles and surface area to clean, as the urethra opening is between both the outer and inner labia. If I want to get it all dry, then yeah, it needs a few passes. In the back it's just... easy to spread things out and access just the relevant area, without having to clean up liquid that's run all over everything. Even if I need to repeat in the rear, I can use just enough paper to cover my fingertips each time.
It must vary by inner and outer labia shape and size. The liquid gets all over all of my recesses and requires at least three sets of squares (not handfuls, no, but two fluffy squares or three...
It must vary by inner and outer labia shape and size. The liquid gets all over all of my recesses and requires at least three sets of squares (not handfuls, no, but two fluffy squares or three single-ply, three times) per wee to keep me from developing a urine odor through the day. I remember seeing tampon advice of "keep the string positioned so urine doesn't get on it" and being just... unable to figure out any possible way that could work.
"keep positioned where urine doesn't get on it" is mind boggling. It's up there next to "glue your labia shut during periods that would be deactivated by urinating so you don't need pads/tampons...
"keep positioned where urine doesn't get on it" is mind boggling.
It's up there next to "glue your labia shut during periods that would be deactivated by urinating so you don't need pads/tampons anymore, why no I didn't ask a single person with those bits about it, why aren't you grateful?" Guy
I'm sure there's some variation between individuals, but I simply don't think it's normal or common for it to require handfuls. I don't personally use tampons so I can't speak to that particular...
I'm sure there's some variation between individuals, but I simply don't think it's normal or common for it to require handfuls. I don't personally use tampons so I can't speak to that particular issue.
Thank you for bringing this up. I also forgot that people wrap sanitary products in a lot of paper when they dispose of them. Mummification. I think younger women especially will hyper wrap a...
Thank you for bringing this up.
I also forgot that people wrap sanitary products in a lot of paper when they dispose of them. Mummification. I think younger women especially will hyper wrap a menstruation product out of societal expectations to cover all aspects of bodily functions we find ugly or inconvenient.
I don’t know if people also mummify condoms, for example. This could also add to waste.
Lastly, I’m not fully informed but two questions (not necessarily at you):
Is there a difference in how much wrapping is used to dispose of a tampon vs. pad ?
Does the USA or any other country have a disproportionate use of tampons vs. pads vs. reusables or other methods ?
Thanks for sharing your experience, it does not sound easy.
I don't even know what the stats are anymore, I know more people use reusables than ever. I have had an implant for the past... 9 years or so, just reupped again, so I keep some pads around for...
I don't even know what the stats are anymore, I know more people use reusables than ever. I have had an implant for the past... 9 years or so, just reupped again, so I keep some pads around for guests and surprises, but tbh I don't use them hardly ever
Better living through birth control induced amenorrhea (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
Pads I used the wrapper from the old ones. Paper swaddle for it to stay closed up if I didn't have a new wrapper for some reason but not full mummy
Tampons a bit of paper, because I preferred OBs by the time I was older.
Man, not using a bidet or immediately showering after pooping is like wiping down a plate of spaghetti marinara and putting it back in the cupboard and calling it a day. The first thing I did when...
Man, not using a bidet or immediately showering after pooping is like wiping down a plate of spaghetti marinara and putting it back in the cupboard and calling it a day. The first thing I did when I leased my first apartment and later bought a house was to install slow-close toilet seats and a bidet attachment on at least one toilet. Absolute game-changer.
I am seeing now that I did not do my own due diligence to fact check the stats because it fit my narrative of "American's wasteful, forest destruction bad". I'm sorry for posting a possibly...
I am seeing now that I did not do my own due diligence to fact check the stats because it fit my narrative of
"American's wasteful, forest destruction bad". I'm sorry for posting a possibly misinformation article, but I'm now heavily invested in figuring out how much toilet paper people actually use lol and what's a good way to measure it.
Toilet Paper has always been one of those items hard to measure or compare due to ply, weight, etc.
Hey, I thought you sharing this article was pretty helpful. Even if the number of rolls is misleading, if the weight of toilet paper used is accurate or if the relative usage to other countries is...
Hey, I thought you sharing this article was pretty helpful. Even if the number of rolls is misleading, if the weight of toilet paper used is accurate or if the relative usage to other countries is accurate, then that's a great comparison! Say we compare to Japan. America could potentially use 1/3 less by adopting bidets. That would be a big boon for the environment while improving cleanliness. It's nice to have a number in mind.
For years I bought sustainable toilet paper (from Who Gives a Crap and Reel). I remember getting my regularly scheduled delivery from WGAC (a big box of 48 rolls) right when the COVID lockdowns...
For years I bought sustainable toilet paper (from Who Gives a Crap and Reel). I remember getting my regularly scheduled delivery from WGAC (a big box of 48 rolls) right when the COVID lockdowns first hit. It was right when news reports about people hoarding toilet paper were coming out, and I felt like I was an accidental king for having that much all at the same time.
It, unfortunately, became one of the things we gave up as costs started rising. Regular toilet paper is way cheaper (and, honestly, more comfortable texturally).
I wish I could get onboard with bidets. I've used them a few times when they've been available on vacations. Each time I committed myself to "I'm going to get used to this,” and each time I couldn't. I find them very uncomfortable.
I have a bidet attached to my toilet now (which I absolutely love) but was completely unable to figure out a freestanding bidet when I was in Lisbon. So if you only have tried the latter, it's...
I have a bidet attached to my toilet now (which I absolutely love) but was completely unable to figure out a freestanding bidet when I was in Lisbon. So if you only have tried the latter, it's still possible the former will be easier to adapt to.
If it's a sensory discomfort, I don't think there is anything to say. The bidets that come as part of a toilet seat are extremely easy to use but it sounds like you just don't like the process.
If it's a sensory discomfort, I don't think there is anything to say.
The bidets that come as part of a toilet seat are extremely easy to use but it sounds like you just don't like the process.
I can't get a handle on bidets either. I find myself using more toilet paper trying to get myself properly dry after using a bidet than I would just wiping regularly.
I can't get a handle on bidets either. I find myself using more toilet paper trying to get myself properly dry after using a bidet than I would just wiping regularly.
Our house still uses toilet paper, but since having a baby and using cloth diapers we installed a simple handheld bidet for rinsing diapers off before throwing in the wash. We also have a bunch of...
Our house still uses toilet paper, but since having a baby and using cloth diapers we installed a simple handheld bidet for rinsing diapers off before throwing in the wash. We also have a bunch of square cloth wipes. We realized that the bidet + cloth wipe is far preferable to just TP. The bidet actually cleans, and the wipes actually dry. As a result, our butts are cleaner and we use a fraction of the TP others use without any conscious effort to do so. During the shortages in 2020’s, we didn’t even think about it.
We also use a separate set (visually distinct) set of cloth wipes in place of paper towels. These are hugely more practical than paper. Again, we still have paper towels (cat pee can never really be laundered out), but it’s like one roll a month (and we have kids).
I thought this article was interesting, did not realize how much toilet paper we use and its impact on the environment. Also curious to see how the USA will feel if Canada enacts any sanctions on...
I thought this article was interesting, did not realize how much toilet paper we use and its impact on the environment. Also curious to see how the USA will feel if Canada enacts any sanctions on wood-pulp trading.
So how much toilet paper would you all say you in a given wipe and a given poop? I mean, I dont have an exact number in mind, but Im never using a single square of toilet paper at a time, even...
So how much toilet paper would you all say you in a given wipe and a given poop? I mean, I dont have an exact number in mind, but Im never using a single square of toilet paper at a time, even with 2ply. Is there a standard amount or protocol or are we all out here winging it?
It varies widely depending on if you're a "fold" or "scrunch" person and whether youre using commercial paper or home paper (and then what kind of home paper? Septic safe? Charmin ultra soft?)...
It varies widely depending on if you're a "fold" or "scrunch" person and whether youre using commercial paper or home paper (and then what kind of home paper? Septic safe? Charmin ultra soft?)
Plus truly, menstruation throws the whole thing off, not just for the obvious reasons but because period shits are often the worst
Depends. If I'm at home with my bidet, like 4-6 squares. If I'm without bidet, it's anyone's guess, because then it's like wiping a marker; I could go through half a roll, easily.
Depends.
If I'm at home with my bidet, like 4-6 squares. If I'm without bidet, it's anyone's guess, because then it's like wiping a marker; I could go through half a roll, easily.
At this point we need a citizens science initiative lol. Where is that person on here doing the data analysis for the demographics ? I feel like I’ve started a “50% of the population wipe sitting...
At this point we need a citizens science initiative lol. Where is that person on here doing the data analysis for the demographics ?
I feel like I’ve started a “50% of the population wipe sitting down vs standing” conversation, and I’m loving the insight. As a side note adjacent to wiping. Does the sit down vs stand up convo ignore all the other types of bathroom habits that exist ? (Bidet, squat toilets, etc. probably some I don’t even know about). I’d like an international meta analysis of bathroom hygiene with a focus on wiping posture.
I think in the US bidets and squat toilets are relatively small enough - and don't exist in public restrooms - that they're excluded. I do think you sort of have to consider home habits versus...
I think in the US bidets and squat toilets are relatively small enough - and don't exist in public restrooms - that they're excluded.
I do think you sort of have to consider home habits versus public restroom habits because urinals don't generally exist at home and toilet paper made for commercial locations is entirely different than home use. (Things I learned during the pandemic and the toilet paper shortage)
I resisted joining this conversation because honestly I think discussing wiping habits is as personal as discussing sex habits. However one thing that I believe impacts the statistical range for...
I resisted joining this conversation because honestly I think discussing wiping habits is as personal as discussing sex habits.
However one thing that I believe impacts the statistical range for toilet paper use here in the US is that we have a comparatively high percentage of very large people. Re weight and size, other countries are starting to catch up to us as compared to twenty years ago, but there is a problem with weight in this country. (I'm not intending to shame heavy people here. Obesity is a tough problem to solve. I am myself 50 pounds heavier than I would like to be).
I personally used the most toilet paper on heavy menstruation days or on days (thankfully rare) when I had runny stool either from illness or from what I had eaten that day. Some people suffer from runny stool frequently but I don't know anything about what causes that or how high a percentage of the population they are.
It makes it sound like they are cutting down trees purely for use as pulp. Most of what a pulp mill uses is a byproduct of creating lumber or from tree farms. Since lumber is worth more than pulp, no one is going to turn good trees into pulp if they can just buy sawdust and poor quality trees from sawmills for cheap. It'd be like using Ahi Tuna for fertilizer.
Yes, we should use bidets more, honestly wish it were popular since I live in an apartment and can't modify my toilet. However, we are not deforesting Canada to make toilet paper and those who manage the forest know a lot more than these people seem to think. They really do take into account the environmental affect and the amount of forest cut down is minuscule compared to the total forestland and not even a fraction of what fires destroy every year. I should also add that a lot of wood from Canada goes overseas, especially further West, like BC. If the USA stopped importing altogether, it'd just go there instead. Not to mention it's a big income stream for Canada and not as harmful as those envirowakos think it is when managed properly.
On another note, who is using 57+ squares of TP a day?! Even adding in using it for facial tissues doesn't add up to a fraction of that for me. Am I that severely underestimating how much TP women use or is this counting something like exported toilet paper? I just can't fathom how there's so much used. Seems like misinformation to me.
You can add one of these (https://a.co/d/cJwAk5L) without modifying the toilet and it doesn’t need a power outlet. The water is cold, which might take some getting used to, but it is a powerful stream and does a fantastic job. I have almost no handyman experience and was able to add it in about 40 minutes.
Oh wow, that's easier to do than I thought and the cold would be nice in summer. I could have sworn I looked at them a while back and they looked like a pain to install. This would take me 15 minutes, depending on how hard the seat is to remove (some of them are a pain). Just turn the water off, drain the tank, unscrew the line & seat, add the parts (probably add plumbing tape), reattach the line & seat and turn the water back on.
I'll have to ask management if it'd be ok, they let me add a different shower head on the grounds that I replace the old one when I leave, so maybe that'll be ok too. :)
I have an attachment the Tushy attachment on my toilet and it’s great. Not sure if that would also get you in trouble?
Thank you for this perspective, I had not considered it as a by-product instead of the main product! My emotions had already run wild at that point lol.
You seem more knowledgeable on the topic, but my understanding is that just re-planting trees after de-foresting old tree growth isn't really the equivalent of sustainable or responsible practices, but I'd be curious to know more about what practices are performed to strike some balance.
Virtual no logging happens in actual "old growth" forests.
Managed logging happens periodically in a generally sustainable way, if we are talking about Canadian logging. Areas will be selectively logged (not clear but) on a decades-long rotation, with enough trees standing to provide at least minimal habitat to allow the local fauna to move to denser locations as they find desirable.
Modern forestry practices are pretty sophisticated and (in Canada at least) noone is slash-and-burn clear-cutting trees for any purpose, let alone to feed pulp mills
Like was said by Scirocco, these days old growth forests are not logged, being mostly protected (there are not many left). Areas being cut have been cut before and a lot of planning goes into where, when and how to cut. They try to replicate a wildfire, which is how those forests are naturally thinned, so that recovery is as natural as possible. After a cut, the area is monitored to make sure it regrows properly and it takes decades to regrow in which time animals and plants that like open areas or young forests move in.
Of course it's not all great. They can't replicate nature perfectly as less nutrients are left behind, there's no fire for the plants that need fire to sprout, wildfires don't burn down the same area so often and the type they replant tend to be only trees valuable to loggers (less diversity, though they're working on that issue).
It would still be great to turn them all into old growth, I've read not giving things like mosses and fungi enough time to settle in makes the forests dryer and more prone to burning. Issue being they have to balance our need for lumber with protecting nature. Until lab grown wood is viable or we develop good alternatives for everything, we'll need lumber. The alternatives don't have the same properties as wood, some being less environmentally friendly like plastic and many being too expensive (hemp could be used to make TP if not for the price). We're developing alternatives, it'll just take time and we all should stay on top of what comes out to help support them when they become available. Which would include trying to get people to use bidets I suppose.
FYI, the Canada Institute of Forestry has some good pamphlets on forestry (Clearcuting & Old Growth are good ones).
This is the real problem? I thought the real problem is that we use toilet paper instead of mostly bidets?
The article does mention lack of bidet adoption actually :)
But meanwhile, there are steps to reduce toilet paper waste for those who won’t or can’t install a bidet.
I just learned that the average American uses 140 rolls a year?! That's 11.7 rolls a month. That sounds grotesque to me.
I go through 2 a month at home. A 30-pack of TP from Costco sets me up for most of the year. I eat a high fiber diet, so my wiping needs are usually, ahem, minimal. Factoring my use of TP outside of home, I'm probably using 3~4 rolls a month. (Though I usually do my business at home right after morning coffee and rarely outside.) I can't fathom using nearly 2/5ths of a roll of TP per day.
I hate that I'm linking to this source, but I only found this when trying to fact check. The Federalist: No, The Average American Doesn’t Use Three Rolls Of Toilet Paper Per Week
I had also gone through this link, found the link to the NRDC paper, and from there found that their number was from a Statista graph (which they link), which has a note "Assuming one roll of toilet paper weighs 90g". I have Charmin Ultra Soft (2-ply) at home and a roll weighs 141g with 4g of it being the cardboard tube. So I didn't get to 227g like the Scotts brand supposedly is, but density per brand being different makes sense. Charmin and Scotts being common brands though, 90g seems very weird.
And according to the same graph that has Americans at 141 rolls, then Germans are at 134 and Brits at 127. Japan, with its high usage of bidets, comes in 4th at 91 rolls.
That can't possibly be right. 2.7 rolls a week for a single person is someone who's got major GI problems. Or they've buying those cheap ass single ply scrawny rolls. Maybe a household of 4?
I too get my TP from Costco (which is afaik unfortunately 0% recycled content) and it takes my 2 person household about 8-9 months to get through. And that was before I got a bidet seat.
I can only imagine they're counting each ply, but even using 3 ply I can't see someone using so much. You'd have to have the runs 24/7 to go through that much. There has to be other factors like people toilet papering houses on Halloween, exporting TP and other factors I apparently can't think of.
Half the population uses toilet paper every time they urinate. It's messy to pee out of a recessed area rather than a hose; liquid clings and runs along surfaces. Several handfuls of toilet paper can be necessary, since each time you are absorbing liquid to do the entire cleanup, rather than wiping away a semisolid. Think the difference between cleaning up a spill of apple juice versus wiping away a glob of peanut butter. And needless to say, #1 is far more frequent than #2 over the course of the day.
I'm sorry but this is an absolutely absurd description lol. I promise you that it is significantly less messy to wipe after peeing as a vulva-haver than you describe and it certainly doesn't require more toilet paper than the average poo for the average person. The fact that you're absorbing liquid makes it easier, if anything, since you don't have any smearing problems -- this is a large part of why using a bidet allows most people to use less toilet paper after all, even if they need to wipe with toilet paper to dry off the water afterwards, and the relevant area there is much more recessed. The apple juice vs peanut butter comparison is apt, but you're taking the wrong lessons from that metaphor or picturing a very unrealistic quantity of liquid clinging to skin.
Now, menstrual bleeding on the other hand... that does often require several handfuls.
Bingo. I'm not using "several handfuls" for a typical wee.
Also people should consider wiping their penises so they don't get that wet spot and washing their damn hands too.
Yeah I might use several squares for a pee, as I'm not super vigilant about not wasting toilet paper, but even with my tiny hands that doesn't constitute several handfuls.
No TP at urinals sadly 😞
Pee in the toilet! Sit down to pee! Take a load off! (Brought to you by men I've dated)
But at least wash hands please, too many people seem to think it's unnecessary.
You can also pee in the stall while still standing and use the TP there. I used to get caught up in hypermasculinity and wanting to fit in, but honestly hated having to massage my taint to get the last drop out and still having the pee droplet remain in my undergarments. (Spoiler, no amount of shaking results in the same dryness as using TP, even with the taint milking). YMMV, but this is how my body works.
Dabbing with TP is life changing lol.
I can understand not wanting to wait for a stall though or wanting to keep the stall open for pooping, but yeah, try out the different forms of peeing. Sitting to pee is also great.
Not directed at you, but to pile on lol, yes anyone who thinks they do not have to wash their hands is misguided. Wash before and after. Soap Everytime. With friction. For a long time. Period. Full stop.
Honestly, I'm really curious why I should wash my hands after peeing as a penis-haver. I often walk into a bathroom without touching any surface (50% chance of a door handle or two), walk to a urinal, deploy the penis, piss, stow the penis, watch the urinal automatically flush, and... where have I dirtied my hands? Do we just assume that my penis is unclean? That seems fair if I'm hot and sweaty, but it always feels like a weird assumption when I'm just sitting/standing at a desk and walking around an office.
Honestly, the dirtiest surface I encounter in most bathroom visits is either the doorknob or the sink handle. And if I have to turn the sink off manually after cleaning my hands, I've just gotten them dirty again!
(FWIW I do usually wash my hands after peeing, but especially when I use a really dirty sink in an otherwise hands-free bathroom I tend to wonder if I'm better off never touching anything but my own body, including the sink)
You sweat even when you're not feeling sweaty, the outside of your pants has germs, there are micro droplets of urine both from urinating and the flushing in the air and on your hands, and since you don't wipe there's urine on you and in the underwear for next time.
Shut the faucet off with a paper towel and use it to open the door on the way out. Elbows work in necessity.
Is this not really taught to men generally? I am being genuine.
It is. But I think some people get caught up in post hoc justification that then reinforces the behavior.
<joke>I bet they also wear shoes inside their house too. </joke>
In all fairness, I try to wash my hands after peeing whenever possible. But having grown up someplace rural where I wound up peeing in the woods a lot, it does become a bit normalized when you can't.
At least I'm not enough of a barbarian to wear shoes in the house. That's a bridge I'll never cross. I have movers coming soon and I find the necessity of them wearing shoes into both apartments awful enough!
You could give them booties at the new apartment?
"Picturing"? I'm going by a lifetime of experience and experimentation. I find this combative and dismissive attitude about my own experiences pretty strange and I wish you'd approached your response in the spirit of discussion rather than arguing.
I try to use as little toilet paper as possible, but in order for it not to get on my hands I do need a fair amount, and I need to repeat the process. How much is needed depends on the ply and absorbency of the paper itself, of course. With a good absorbent toilet paper, I might need only a few squares each pass, but the toilet paper found in cheap public restrooms, for instance, needs a larger number of squares. That's why I mentioned the absorbency issue versus wiping a semisolid. (Perhaps my use of "handful" made you picture something more specific about the size of the wad of paper?)
We must have very different private areas, because for me the front is more recessed when wiping, with far more wrinkles and surface area to clean, as the urethra opening is between both the outer and inner labia. If I want to get it all dry, then yeah, it needs a few passes. In the back it's just... easy to spread things out and access just the relevant area, without having to clean up liquid that's run all over everything. Even if I need to repeat in the rear, I can use just enough paper to cover my fingertips each time.
It must vary by inner and outer labia shape and size. The liquid gets all over all of my recesses and requires at least three sets of squares (not handfuls, no, but two fluffy squares or three single-ply, three times) per wee to keep me from developing a urine odor through the day. I remember seeing tampon advice of "keep the string positioned so urine doesn't get on it" and being just... unable to figure out any possible way that could work.
"keep positioned where urine doesn't get on it" is mind boggling.
It's up there next to "glue your labia shut during periods that would be deactivated by urinating so you don't need pads/tampons anymore, why no I didn't ask a single person with those bits about it, why aren't you grateful?" Guy
I'm sure there's some variation between individuals, but I simply don't think it's normal or common for it to require handfuls. I don't personally use tampons so I can't speak to that particular issue.
Thank you for bringing this up.
I also forgot that people wrap sanitary products in a lot of paper when they dispose of them. Mummification. I think younger women especially will hyper wrap a menstruation product out of societal expectations to cover all aspects of bodily functions we find ugly or inconvenient.
I don’t know if people also mummify condoms, for example. This could also add to waste.
Lastly, I’m not fully informed but two questions (not necessarily at you):
Is there a difference in how much wrapping is used to dispose of a tampon vs. pad ?
Does the USA or any other country have a disproportionate use of tampons vs. pads vs. reusables or other methods ?
Thanks for sharing your experience, it does not sound easy.
I don't even know what the stats are anymore, I know more people use reusables than ever. I have had an implant for the past... 9 years or so, just reupped again, so I keep some pads around for guests and surprises, but tbh I don't use them hardly ever
Better living through birth control induced amenorrhea (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
Pads I used the wrapper from the old ones. Paper swaddle for it to stay closed up if I didn't have a new wrapper for some reason but not full mummy
Tampons a bit of paper, because I preferred OBs by the time I was older.
A possible resource on global differences in use
And the US seems to use tampons more
I am highly skeptical of these stats. One of those 30-packs from Costco lasts my family of 5 roughly two months, if not more, and I am the only man.
Man, not using a bidet or immediately showering after pooping is like wiping down a plate of spaghetti marinara and putting it back in the cupboard and calling it a day. The first thing I did when I leased my first apartment and later bought a house was to install slow-close toilet seats and a bidet attachment on at least one toilet. Absolute game-changer.
I am seeing now that I did not do my own due diligence to fact check the stats because it fit my narrative of
"American's wasteful, forest destruction bad". I'm sorry for posting a possibly misinformation article, but I'm now heavily invested in figuring out how much toilet paper people actually use lol and what's a good way to measure it.
Toilet Paper has always been one of those items hard to measure or compare due to ply, weight, etc.
Hey, I thought you sharing this article was pretty helpful. Even if the number of rolls is misleading, if the weight of toilet paper used is accurate or if the relative usage to other countries is accurate, then that's a great comparison! Say we compare to Japan. America could potentially use 1/3 less by adopting bidets. That would be a big boon for the environment while improving cleanliness. It's nice to have a number in mind.
For years I bought sustainable toilet paper (from Who Gives a Crap and Reel). I remember getting my regularly scheduled delivery from WGAC (a big box of 48 rolls) right when the COVID lockdowns first hit. It was right when news reports about people hoarding toilet paper were coming out, and I felt like I was an accidental king for having that much all at the same time.
It, unfortunately, became one of the things we gave up as costs started rising. Regular toilet paper is way cheaper (and, honestly, more comfortable texturally).
I wish I could get onboard with bidets. I've used them a few times when they've been available on vacations. Each time I committed myself to "I'm going to get used to this,” and each time I couldn't. I find them very uncomfortable.
I have a bidet attached to my toilet now (which I absolutely love) but was completely unable to figure out a freestanding bidet when I was in Lisbon. So if you only have tried the latter, it's still possible the former will be easier to adapt to.
If it's a sensory discomfort, I don't think there is anything to say.
The bidets that come as part of a toilet seat are extremely easy to use but it sounds like you just don't like the process.
I can't get a handle on bidets either. I find myself using more toilet paper trying to get myself properly dry after using a bidet than I would just wiping regularly.
Our house still uses toilet paper, but since having a baby and using cloth diapers we installed a simple handheld bidet for rinsing diapers off before throwing in the wash. We also have a bunch of square cloth wipes. We realized that the bidet + cloth wipe is far preferable to just TP. The bidet actually cleans, and the wipes actually dry. As a result, our butts are cleaner and we use a fraction of the TP others use without any conscious effort to do so. During the shortages in 2020’s, we didn’t even think about it.
We also use a separate set (visually distinct) set of cloth wipes in place of paper towels. These are hugely more practical than paper. Again, we still have paper towels (cat pee can never really be laundered out), but it’s like one roll a month (and we have kids).
I thought this article was interesting, did not realize how much toilet paper we use and its impact on the environment. Also curious to see how the USA will feel if Canada enacts any sanctions on wood-pulp trading.
The same website has a follow up article that I have not read yet, but others may find interesting.
So how much toilet paper would you all say you in a given wipe and a given poop? I mean, I dont have an exact number in mind, but Im never using a single square of toilet paper at a time, even with 2ply. Is there a standard amount or protocol or are we all out here winging it?
It varies widely depending on if you're a "fold" or "scrunch" person and whether youre using commercial paper or home paper (and then what kind of home paper? Septic safe? Charmin ultra soft?)
Plus truly, menstruation throws the whole thing off, not just for the obvious reasons but because period shits are often the worst
Depends.
If I'm at home with my bidet, like 4-6 squares. If I'm without bidet, it's anyone's guess, because then it's like wiping a marker; I could go through half a roll, easily.
At this point we need a citizens science initiative lol. Where is that person on here doing the data analysis for the demographics ?
I feel like I’ve started a “50% of the population wipe sitting down vs standing” conversation, and I’m loving the insight. As a side note adjacent to wiping. Does the sit down vs stand up convo ignore all the other types of bathroom habits that exist ? (Bidet, squat toilets, etc. probably some I don’t even know about). I’d like an international meta analysis of bathroom hygiene with a focus on wiping posture.
I think in the US bidets and squat toilets are relatively small enough - and don't exist in public restrooms - that they're excluded.
I do think you sort of have to consider home habits versus public restroom habits because urinals don't generally exist at home and toilet paper made for commercial locations is entirely different than home use. (Things I learned during the pandemic and the toilet paper shortage)
I resisted joining this conversation because honestly I think discussing wiping habits is as personal as discussing sex habits.
However one thing that I believe impacts the statistical range for toilet paper use here in the US is that we have a comparatively high percentage of very large people. Re weight and size, other countries are starting to catch up to us as compared to twenty years ago, but there is a problem with weight in this country. (I'm not intending to shame heavy people here. Obesity is a tough problem to solve. I am myself 50 pounds heavier than I would like to be).
I personally used the most toilet paper on heavy menstruation days or on days (thankfully rare) when I had runny stool either from illness or from what I had eaten that day. Some people suffer from runny stool frequently but I don't know anything about what causes that or how high a percentage of the population they are.
I have a bidet so I only need enough to dry myself off.
I use one or two squares depending on the absorbancy of the roll I have available.