25 votes

Restaurants close across China

45 comments

  1. chocobean
    Link
    Lol @ even civil servant jobs aren't safe in their marvelous country. even xi jinping's new years eve speech (Chinese) sounds very reserved and, not at all their usual boastful bombastic tones:...

    “The assets of the middle classes are shrinking, civil servants are owed wages, and a lot of ordinary people are unemployed.”

    Lol @ even civil servant jobs aren't safe in their marvelous country.

    even xi jinping's new years eve speech (Chinese) sounds very reserved and, not at all their usual boastful bombastic tones:

    夢雖遙,追則能達﹔願雖艱,持則可圓。

    The dream, although far, can be reached by chasing after it. The wish, although difficult, could be realised by holding on. (Chocobean translation)

    Edit: it's not good news for the world and especially the Taiwanese, though. Backed into a corner with internal resentment, and with nothing to show for his years of brilliant leadership, dictators get more dangerous.

    21 votes
  2. [35]
    KapteinB
    Link
    The headline scared me, making me think there was another pandemic on the way. Interesting news though. I didn't know times were this hard in China.

    The headline scared me, making me think there was another pandemic on the way.

    Interesting news though. I didn't know times were this hard in China.

    14 votes
    1. [34]
      Raspcoffee
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I knew things were getting bad, but this is really concerning. It's easy to think in the West that it's 'good for us' for various reasons but really, no one benefits from a Chinese recession....

      I knew things were getting bad, but this is really concerning. It's easy to think in the West that it's 'good for us' for various reasons but really, no one benefits from a Chinese recession. Additionally...

      The outlets that are still booming are those frequented by government officials and departments, according to Wang.

      If this is the case, and I could definitely see that being the case, it could mean there's a growing, unaddressed rift between ordinary people and the government. And the people who are supposed to solve it well, have less of an incentive to do so.

      Now granted this is only one symptom and one source, but if more articles like this pop up with similar sights, I may need to re-adjust my expectations of a Great Chinese Stagnation to a recession.

      I dunno man, can we skip this decade? Please?

      12 votes
      1. [31]
        sunset
        Link Parent
        The pandemic hit everyone's economy, there's a reason almost all incumbent parties were voted out in the democratic world, there's no reason to believe the Chinese economy won't take a big hit as...

        The pandemic hit everyone's economy, there's a reason almost all incumbent parties were voted out in the democratic world, there's no reason to believe the Chinese economy won't take a big hit as well.

        16 votes
        1. [30]
          Raspcoffee
          Link Parent
          Well, China was already doubling down on an unsustainable road for some time. (overinvesting in infrastructure, cheap construction bloating the housing market, mismatch between supply and demand...

          Well, China was already doubling down on an unsustainable road for some time. (overinvesting in infrastructure, cheap construction bloating the housing market, mismatch between supply and demand in the labour market, and more) But you're right in that the pandemic still has left social and economic aftershocks we haven't really processed yet.

          6 votes
          1. [29]
            chocobean
            Link Parent
            It's all of the things you pointed, I think, out rather than the pandemic. In fact, the pandemic bought them valuable time and was a wonderful excuse to restrict withdrawals, to explain away the...

            It's all of the things you pointed, I think, out rather than the pandemic. In fact, the pandemic bought them valuable time and was a wonderful excuse to restrict withdrawals, to explain away the people's perception of being in a recession.

            People have been taking note of NeiJuan, or involution, for a number of years. (Google trends puts it at 2000, MoeGirlPedia(quasi-sfw) cites a quote from 2016:

            什麼是內卷?過剩的人口為爭搶有限的資源投入無限的精力,最後所獲得的資源沒有絲毫增多,倒是卷進了幾乎無窮無盡的投入,幾近得不償失。早知這樣還不如早早把那點可憐的資源一分然後各謀出路,至少還省了那些內鬥的損耗。
            什麼是內卷?清華在貴省就招30人。第31名,你考650分你也上不了清華,考710分你也上不了清華,考749分你也上不了清華。每一片雪花的努力,最終只不過是為了將另一片雪花逼入絕境。

            (Partial Chocobean translation) What's involution? An excess population, for the sake of fighting over finite resources, putting in an infinite amount of effort. In the end, the resource one receives does not increase by one iota, but instead rolls inwards into finite effort with barely any gains. [...] What's involution? It's [ top university ] accepting 30 students: if you're ranked 31st, it doesn't matter if you scored 650, 710, or even 749 (out of a perfect 750) points, you're not getting into this university. Every snowflake's effort pushes another snowflake further into a dead end.

            (The snowflake here isn't a reference to north american coddled/defrosted snowflake children, it's a known internet reference to "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible” from Voltaire)

            The students felt it first but they weren't alone. Involution happens even after one graduates, even if you came back to China with an overseas advanced degree, even if you're Jack Ma. That China had been stagnating and the market and its people eating itself, has been felt on the streets for at least a decade. There's only so much China can keep doing to maintain the facade.

            Smaller banks have folded, but the medium ones propped up by simply disallowing withdrawals (2022 AP News)
            In 2024, withdrawals at one bank requires permission from police asking why you need money and strongly suggesting you don't withdraw to protect citizens from fraud investigation (source in Chinese).

            Then again, I've been waiting for them to go bust for couple decades now, and am biased to see what I want to see.

            19 votes
            1. Raspcoffee
              Link Parent
              We all have our biases and in the end - the CCP has shown many competencies. But we'll have to see how it goes. As for Taiwan, if its any assurance, the Russo-Ukrainian war is already having a...

              Then again, I've been waiting for them to go bust for couple decades now, and am biased to see what I want to see.

              We all have our biases and in the end - the CCP has shown many competencies. But we'll have to see how it goes.

              As for Taiwan, if its any assurance, the Russo-Ukrainian war is already having a terrible effect on the demographics of both countries. I don't doubt for a moment that China is well aware that that is a price China can't afford.

              4 votes
            2. [23]
              updawg
              Link Parent
              What's the deal with the Chinese and translating phrases to English words that nobody else uses? Everything is auspicious plus this word that practically nobody has ever seen before. I'm not even...

              NeiJuan, or involution

              What's the deal with the Chinese and translating phrases to English words that nobody else uses? Everything is auspicious plus this word that practically nobody has ever seen before. I'm not even simply curious why they do this stuff for Chinese but nobody else seems to do it.

              3 votes
              1. [12]
                Notcoffeetable
                Link Parent
                I really don’t know what you mean. The word “involution” is not strange to me.

                I really don’t know what you mean. The word “involution” is not strange to me.

                8 votes
                1. [11]
                  updawg
                  Link Parent
                  I guarantee you the vast, vast majority of people don't know that word.

                  I guarantee you the vast, vast majority of people don't know that word.

                  2 votes
                  1. [10]
                    Notcoffeetable
                    Link Parent
                    You mean English speakers? It seems like a lot of Mandarin Chinese or Cantonese speakers might.

                    You mean English speakers? It seems like a lot of Mandarin Chinese or Cantonese speakers might.

                    1. [9]
                      updawg
                      Link Parent
                      There may be some confusion here. I'm saying people don't know the word "involution." English speakers don't because it's an obscure, semi-jargony word. Chinese speakers don't because it's an...

                      There may be some confusion here. I'm saying people don't know the word "involution." English speakers don't because it's an obscure, semi-jargony word. Chinese speakers don't because it's an English word.

                      1 vote
                      1. [8]
                        Notcoffeetable
                        Link Parent
                        visible confusion Notcoffeetable takes 3 points of psychic damage Anyway, my point is that concepts occur with different frequencies within cultures. Why do you think because a translated concept...

                        Chinese speakers don't because it's an English word.

                        visible confusion
                        Notcoffeetable takes 3 points of psychic damage

                        Anyway, my point is that concepts occur with different frequencies within cultures. Why do you think because a translated concept is "weird" to you that it is weird to a Mandarin speaker growing up in a society which developed across the globe and in parallel with the western world?

                        4 votes
                        1. [7]
                          updawg
                          Link Parent
                          🤨 I'm still very confused. Do you not understand that I'm talking about the English word and not NeiJuan?

                          🤨

                          I'm still very confused. Do you not understand that I'm talking about the English word and not NeiJuan?

                          1 vote
                          1. [6]
                            Notcoffeetable
                            Link Parent
                            Yes I know that. I'm confused because we seem to have different understandings of the relationships between words, their connotations, and their denotations.

                            Yes I know that. I'm confused because we seem to have different understandings of the relationships between words, their connotations, and their denotations.

                            1. [5]
                              updawg
                              Link Parent
                              Why would Chinese people know English words, given that only about 1% of Chinese people speak English?

                              Why would Chinese people know English words, given that only about 1% of Chinese people speak English?

                              1. [4]
                                Notcoffeetable
                                Link Parent
                                What I was getting at is that I don’t think Chinese is particularly bad at translating itself in arcane ways. And that the word involution was not strange to me, much like how a common word for...

                                NeiJuan, or involution

                                What's the deal with the Chinese and translating phrases to English words that nobody else uses? Everything is auspicious plus this word that practically nobody has ever seen before. I'm not even simply curious why they do this stuff for Chinese but nobody else seems to do it.

                                “I don’t know what you mean. The word ‘involution’ is not strange to me.”

                                What I was getting at is that I don’t think Chinese is particularly bad at translating itself in arcane ways. And that the word involution was not strange to me, much like how a common word for them might translate to an uncommon word for us.

                                I guarantee you the vast, vast majority of people don't know that word.

                                “You mean English speakers? It seems like a lot of Chinese speakers [...] might.”

                                Here I am conflating NeiJuan|Involution because they are pointers to the same concept. The word NeiJuan may very well be familiar to Chinese speakers because the concept of NeiJuan is a current phenomenon being discussed. But English does not have a social phenomenon that we have called “Involution” so it is a rarer (but I still contest not weird) word.

                                There may be some confusion here. I'm saying people don't know the word "involution." English speakers don't because it's an obscure, semi-jargony word. Chinese speakers don't because it's an English word.

                                Chinese speakers seem to know about NeiJuan. Which means involution so transitively Chinese speakers know what an involution is.

                                I’m very much done with this conversation

                                1. [3]
                                  updawg
                                  Link Parent
                                  Homie wtf I made it so clear that I was exclusively talking about the English word and not the Chinese equivalent or the concept in general. You even responded that you knew what I was saying....

                                  Homie wtf I made it so clear that I was exclusively talking about the English word and not the Chinese equivalent or the concept in general. You even responded that you knew what I was saying. Come on, you can't just straight up lie about whether or not we're on the same page and expect communication to just magically happen.

                                  1. Notcoffeetable
                                    Link Parent
                                    I explicitly said we were not on the same page and I was legitimately confused that you were so literally talking about the English word. As I said there is a fundamental misunderstanding and I...

                                    I explicitly said we were not on the same page and I was legitimately confused that you were so literally talking about the English word. As I said there is a fundamental misunderstanding and I don’t think this conversation is helpful anymore.

                                  2. rosco
                                    Link Parent
                                    I think I can weigh in as an english speaker who didn't know what involution meant before this conversation but I think I understand Notcoffeetable's point: The most direct translation for the...

                                    I think I can weigh in as an english speaker who didn't know what involution meant before this conversation but I think I understand Notcoffeetable's point: The most direct translation for the Chinese word is involution, so it's the one they use. Like if I was speaking to a Spanish speaker and I looked up the translation for the word I wanted to use and ended up on a weird, obscure word most of them don't know. It happened a lot when I lived in Spain, I think it's just a symptom of colloquial language diverging from "proper" grammar. It's super confusing, I'm right there with you, but I think it's understandable if you learn english from a text book rather than on the street.

                                    2 votes
              2. [4]
                stu2b50
                Link Parent
                Because those are the most direct translation options? Would you prefer for it to be left in pinyin or something?

                Because those are the most direct translation options? Would you prefer for it to be left in pinyin or something?

                7 votes
                1. [3]
                  updawg
                  Link Parent
                  I'd prefer they do it the way that translation is normally accomplished where you aim to be understood and not to use words people won't know.

                  I'd prefer they do it the way that translation is normally accomplished where you aim to be understood and not to use words people won't know.

                  2 votes
                  1. [2]
                    stu2b50
                    Link Parent
                    It's not that uncommon of a word. Perhaps most commonly it's used, as in "embryonic involution", so it may be that women see it more often. Moreover, in this context it's a proper noun. It's...

                    It's not that uncommon of a word. Perhaps most commonly it's used, as in "embryonic involution", so it may be that women see it more often.

                    Moreover, in this context it's a proper noun. It's common in english as well to use archaic or uncommon words when naming "movements", because it's pithy and eye-catching. It's not like "neijuan" is all that common in mandarin either.

                    4 votes
                    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                      Link Parent
                      "involution" was absolutely not covered in "the girls side" of sex Ed, anatomy class or anything involving pregnancy, OB/GYN appointment, or medical show (and I used to watch the real surgeries on...

                      "involution" was absolutely not covered in "the girls side" of sex Ed, anatomy class or anything involving pregnancy, OB/GYN appointment, or medical show (and I used to watch the real surgeries on TLC and Animal Planet) I've ever encountered. It's really niche medical language as far as I can tell.

                      Nulliparous, now that word I know, sure, and that describes me, so it's possible it's in every pregnancy appointment. But my sister didn't recognize it either and she's had two kids. Most people don't need to describe the withering of organs from old age or post-partum often.

                      I can't speak for every woman, but like, eh, it's very uncommon.

                      4 votes
              3. gary
                Link Parent
                It's apparently the opposite. The Wikipedia page says neijuan is a direct translation of involution and a relatively new term. So technically, translating it back to involution just feels natural...

                It's apparently the opposite. The Wikipedia page says neijuan is a direct translation of involution and a relatively new term. So technically, translating it back to involution just feels natural for Chinese speakers translating into English?

                Besides, English speakers use words all the time that other native English speakers aren't familiar with. I'm more likely to know auspicious than remember what pithy (used in thread by stu2b50) means.

                6 votes
              4. chocobean
                Link Parent
                I'm super biased against China (the regime), but in this case I actually rather like involution. 卷 here means a roll, a curl, like a revolution of a wheel or like a Swiss roll cake: something that...

                I'm super biased against China (the regime), but in this case I actually rather like involution. 卷 here means a roll, a curl, like a revolution of a wheel or like a Swiss roll cake: something that churns and repeats and spires either up, down, or in this case, inwards into itself. In this case, instead of a revolution as in French, where people explode in anger and get something new coming out of it, an involution is the silent stepping on the corpse of another as yet another climbs up onto you. It's creepy and poetic and clever. I love it. I bet some very clever Chinese citizens came up with the Chinese version as well as the choice of English translation. Chef's kiss

                But yeah, the regime also frequently does cringe [redacted] nonsense like last year, insisting we stop calling Chinese dragons dragons, and for international community to refer to theirs as Loong. Because it's suspicious (barf).

                5 votes
              5. [3]
                Minori
                Link Parent
                It's a thing for all foreign languages, especially ones with more distance like Chinese and English. It's often difficult to find a single, common word to directly translate. The alternative is...

                It's a thing for all foreign languages, especially ones with more distance like Chinese and English. It's often difficult to find a single, common word to directly translate. The alternative is lifting the foreign word or phrase whole cloth as English regularly does with French.

                3 votes
                1. [2]
                  updawg
                  Link Parent
                  Which other languages choose obscure or relatively unique translations?

                  Which other languages choose obscure or relatively unique translations?

                  1 vote
                  1. Minori
                    Link Parent
                    In general, I think good translators avoid terms like "involution", but sometimes an oddly specific word is the best translation. The Japanese concept of 建前 (tatemae) is best translated as a...

                    In general, I think good translators avoid terms like "involution", but sometimes an oddly specific word is the best translation. The Japanese concept of 建前 (tatemae) is best translated as a person's façade for public interactions. I think anyone familiar with English literature should understand the word façade, but I can't remember the last time I heard it used in casual conversation.

                    I'm only familiar with English, Japanese, and Spanish. For English and Japanese, we have a lot of calques which are root-for-root translations to create words like "subliminal" and "superego" that are a bit strange. However, both languages usually take words directly from another language then adapt them like "taco" originally referred to a specific type of burrito in Mexico. Here's a list of loanwords used in Japanese. Here's a list of Spanish words with no 1:1 English equivalents (my wife mostly agreed with the list being difficult to translate).

                    4 votes
              6. RoyalHenOil
                Link Parent
                China has a very different culture and very different political system from western English-speaking nations. It makes sense to me that they would discuss certain topics with different frequency....

                China has a very different culture and very different political system from western English-speaking nations. It makes sense to me that they would discuss certain topics with different frequency. There must also be a lot of commonly-used English words that translate to rarely-used words in Chinese, simply because we talk about those concepts more than they do.

                To large extent, of course, it will also just come down to the arbitrary preferences of people who write translation dictionaries. I can imagine that a dictionary writer might prefer the uncommon "auspicious" over the much more common "promising" simply because the meaning of "auspicious" is less ambiguous. I'm guessing that this kind of issue comes up a lot more often in unrelated languages with few cognates.

                3 votes
            3. [4]
              NoblePath
              Link Parent
              Low effort comment maybe, but this is a hilarious to me apple translation from the moegirl site: Read more: https://zh.moegirl.org.cn/Mainpage This article is quoted from Meng Niang Encyclopedia...

              Low effort comment maybe, but this is a hilarious to me apple translation from the moegirl site:

              Although I am a white dolphin nobleman, because I have memories of my previous life, I am raising my weak younger brother" will be adapted into a TV animation and will be broadcast in July 2025

              Read more: https://zh.moegirl.org.cn/Mainpage
              This article is quoted from Meng Niang Encyclopedia (https://zh.moegirl.org.cn), and the text content defaults to the "Knowledge Sharing Attribution-Non-Commercial Use-Share Alike 3.0 Mainland China" agreement.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                chocobean
                Link Parent
                weirdly enough that's not a terrible translation.....it's of a light novel's title. It seems, in recent years there have been a lot of super long titles that aim to sell you the entire premise...

                weirdly enough that's not a terrible translation.....it's of a light novel's title. It seems, in recent years there have been a lot of super long titles that aim to sell you the entire premise immediately, sort of an elevator speech to "pick me up and read me!"

                I have no idea what 白豚 means though. Literal level is "white pig" but I think there's more to it than that. The premise is that the protagonist is an aristocrat, reincarnated with past memories, raising a not very strong younger brother. :| what a wild ride. Hoping someone else can provide context for what "white pig" means here.

                2 votes
                1. [2]
                  stu2b50
                  Link Parent
                  This is a weird case, because the novel is actually japanese - it's a translation of a japanese webnovel, and now we have the thing where japanese titles keep all the kanji 1-1 in chinese. In this...

                  This is a weird case, because the novel is actually japanese - it's a translation of a japanese webnovel, and now we have the thing where japanese titles keep all the kanji 1-1 in chinese.

                  In this case, I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to mean they're white - as in, caucasian. In a somewhat derogatory manner. The premise of the series is

                  In a world where Western and Asian cultures mix together, the only son of Count Kikunoi from the Kiryuu Empire, is Houchou. His life was already over at the age of five...

                  So presumably "white pig" indicates that OP is from the western side of that mixture.

                  The original original title is 白豚貴族ですが前世の記憶が生えたのでひよこな弟育てます

                  https://jisho.org/search/%E7%99%BD%E8%B1%9A

                  2 votes
                  1. chocobean
                    Link Parent
                    oh yikes is it uh....a slur? In a sort of casual, take for granted racism, "oh we didn't think it's bad and no one means it to be terrible" sort of way? Thank you for stepping up with an actual...

                    oh yikes is it uh....a slur? In a sort of casual, take for granted racism, "oh we didn't think it's bad and no one means it to be terrible" sort of way?

                    Thank you for stepping up with an actual translation and story premise.

                    2 votes
      2. [2]
        Hollow
        Link Parent
        Incentive?

        have less of an insensitive

        Incentive?

        2 votes
        1. Raspcoffee
          Link Parent
          Fixed, thank you. No idea why I spelled that one wrong.

          Fixed, thank you. No idea why I spelled that one wrong.

          2 votes
  3. [4]
    snake_case
    Link
    A few of my favorite restaurants closed during the pandemic because it was the sort of food that doesn’t keep well when ordered for takeout. Nothing I love had closed since then, though, they’ve...

    A few of my favorite restaurants closed during the pandemic because it was the sort of food that doesn’t keep well when ordered for takeout.

    Nothing I love had closed since then, though, they’ve all gotten by with raising prices and choosing cheaper ingredients.

    My sample set is probably just biased because I live near a fast growing city, but I wonder if the Chinese restaurants are willing to make the same changes to their menu to stay in business.

    5 votes
    1. [3]
      Artren
      Link Parent
      I think a lot of these big chains and Bubble Tea shops expanded extremely rapidly with venture capital money within both China and the West. They expected unlimited growth post-pandemic and then...

      I think a lot of these big chains and Bubble Tea shops expanded extremely rapidly with venture capital money within both China and the West. They expected unlimited growth post-pandemic and then the economic squeeze began within China and North America. Interest rates went way up, consumers are getting poorer due to rising costs, and demand for a fair wage. Opening 500+ stores (milk tea spots) in a few years is a little bit much, even for China. That kind of growth is impossible to maintain and keep consistent products.

      Now we are seeing the contraction and loss of investment because people wanted explosive growth over sustainable growth.

      11 votes
      1. [2]
        snake_case
        Link Parent
        Oh so you think its kinda like Quiznos subs, yeah that makes sense.

        Oh so you think its kinda like Quiznos subs, yeah that makes sense.

        4 votes
        1. Artren
          Link Parent
          I think for a lot of the big chains, yes. Over expansion met economic hardship in short time and now the money is drying up.

          I think for a lot of the big chains, yes. Over expansion met economic hardship in short time and now the money is drying up.

          3 votes
  4. [5]
    AugustusFerdinand
    Link
    Anyone know how many restaurants there are in China? Looking for a comparison, the US has about 1M "retail food establishments" for a 334M population. China has 4.2 times the population of the US,...

    Anyone know how many restaurants there are in China?

    Looking for a comparison, the US has about 1M "retail food establishments" for a 334M population. China has 4.2 times the population of the US, but by this number of closures clearly has a much higher per capita restaurant if 3M can close in a year and it not leave every street corner with empty former restaurants.

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      stu2b50
      Link Parent
      I can't seem to find official numbers - I suppose if the CCP doesn't track it, it won't exist. That being said, it's much, much denser than in the US, anecdotally. China is much more urbanized,...

      I can't seem to find official numbers - I suppose if the CCP doesn't track it, it won't exist.

      That being said, it's much, much denser than in the US, anecdotally. China is much more urbanized, and has a bigger food culture.

      A closer analogue is probably something like Japan, where Tokyo has a per capita restaurant rate of ~1:100 (that is, per every 100 people in Tokyo there's 1 restaurant).

      By that ratio, Shanghai would have ~250k restaurants alone.

      9 votes
      1. [2]
        smoontjes
        Link Parent
        I assume this counts hole in the wall places with 5 or 10 seats too? Not sure what the dictionary definition of 'restaurant' is but yeah there are a ton of those in Japan (idk about China). As far...

        I assume this counts hole in the wall places with 5 or 10 seats too? Not sure what the dictionary definition of 'restaurant' is but yeah there are a ton of those in Japan (idk about China). As far as I know, there are next to zero such places anywhere in the west

        1. MimicSquid
          Link Parent
          In older US cities there are still sandwich counter places now and again, but you're right that they're much more rare. They really flourish in places with really high population density, and the...

          In older US cities there are still sandwich counter places now and again, but you're right that they're much more rare. They really flourish in places with really high population density, and the US rarely qualifies.

          1 vote
    2. rosco
      Link Parent
      I'm assuming there is probably a much looser definition of what a "restaurant" is as well. If you've ever seen the Chinese night markets, I wonder if those stalls would classify.

      I'm assuming there is probably a much looser definition of what a "restaurant" is as well. If you've ever seen the Chinese night markets, I wonder if those stalls would classify.