It sounds like the contamination is coming from crops, and the ultra processed nature of it. They were testing for pea protein. But another Consumer Lab report recently called out cassava and a...
It sounds like the contamination is coming from crops, and the ultra processed nature of it. They were testing for pea protein. But another Consumer Lab report recently called out cassava and a bunch of other ingredients.
Just so you know, the "safe level" used here is California's Proposition 65 MADL levels, which are defined as 1/1000th of the level at which there are any observable reproductive or developmental...
Just so you know, the "safe level" used here is California's Proposition 65 MADL levels, which are defined as 1/1000th of the level at which there are any observable reproductive or developmental health effects. Those are known to be extremely cautious guidelines leading to many random products having cancer warning labels in California.
The CR article explains this, and shows how it's still an issue even by FDA's much less strict reference levels (and of course, there are no safe levels of lead exposure), but I just want to point out that while this is bad, "200% of safe daily level" sounds much scarier than it actually is.
Consumer Reports does have a bit of a history exaggerating the danger levels of toxic chemicals found in stuff
(I mostly wrote this for myself to save myself from a hypochondriac anxiety attack though)
I honestly really hate the whole protein fad. Yes, you need to eat protein to build muscles. But the amount of people who are suffering from insufficient protein intake are vanishingly small in...
I honestly really hate the whole protein fad. Yes, you need to eat protein to build muscles. But the amount of people who are suffering from insufficient protein intake are vanishingly small in the rich countries that are going protein-crazy. Especially in the US where large swaths of people demand meat for practically every meal.
Generally speaking, a healthy person should not be taking protein supplements at all. Protein is a nutrient, and you should be getting all of the nutrients you need from your food. If you are protein-deficient, it's because you aren't eating a balanced diet, and that's something that our collective societies really need to spend more effort into combating because imbalanced diet is a cause of major public health issues.
This issue with heavy metals in protein supplements is also another aspect in the discussions on ultraprocessed food. The first thing I thought about when I saw the headline was that section in "Salt Sugar Fat" by Michael Moss where he tried cornflakes made without salt, and how it tasted metallic; it was apparently the reason why they have salt in them - to mask that taste.
But to be fair, it might not be the processing and machinery causing this issue; the fact that it mostly affects plant sources implies that it's a problem with the crops being used to make them. Frankly, I find that to be a much worse scenario, because that means that the farms meant to be feeding us are poisoning us instead.
If you're actually working out actively, it's not a matter of "sufficient or not". It's a sliding scale. We have double blind studies showing that muscle growth and protein intake is causated. Of...
If you're actually working out actively, it's not a matter of "sufficient or not". It's a sliding scale. We have double blind studies showing that muscle growth and protein intake is causated. Of course, there is diminishing returns, but many studies have shown that it's quite shockingly high - upwards of 1g per lb of bodyweight.
It is, in the end, quite difficult to eat that much protein from whole foods. If you're, say, a 180 lb athlete, you're supposed to intake anywhere from 100-180g of protein a day to maintain your muscle mass.
I would also counter the idea that whey powder, which is vast majority of protein powder consumed today, is in some way fundamentally different, and should be considered a "supplement" as opposed to simply a type of food. It's really no more processed than, say, white flour. It is merely the solids from whey leftover from after the curds are removed when making cheese. Everyone consumes whey when they drink milk.
We've use reusing whey leftover from cheese production for thousands of years, for both human use and animal feed, for essentially the same reason - extra fortification of nutrients. Make use of all the animal, and all. Whey protein just has the water removed for easier transport.
You are right that it's a sliding scale, but as I was saying in another comment, professional athletes are an outlier and the average person should not be basing their diet on a lifestyle they do...
You are right that it's a sliding scale, but as I was saying in another comment, professional athletes are an outlier and the average person should not be basing their diet on a lifestyle they do not actually live. I have heard that there have been recent studies that have shown a correlation of high protein intake to lower lifespans, even - though to be fair, they hardly represent scientific consensus.
I'm not trying to vilify whey. I think it's gross, and like all animal-based food people shouldn't be eating it, but it's not entirely based on processing. Still it's very hard to consider it to be food. It's fairly rare to purchase unflavored unsweetened plain whey, even for bodybuilders in my experience, though the recent protein explosion is seeing more people using it as a component to their cooking. But heck, in your next paragraph you basically described it as a supplement.
You don't need to be a professional athlete, just anyone who wants to build muscle, whether that be for it's own sake, to play a sport, or to do difficult hikes or whatever. Athlete is a fairly...
You don't need to be a professional athlete, just anyone who wants to build muscle, whether that be for it's own sake, to play a sport, or to do difficult hikes or whatever. Athlete is a fairly broad category.
Still it's very hard to consider it to be food.
Why so? There's plenty of food that can be considered "gross". The part I want to push back against is the idea that whey protein is some kind of synthetic material or something. It's just part of milk. In the same way that white flour is a flour that is nearly only simple carbohydrates, whey powder is a flour that is nearly only protein.
You probably wouldn't consider adding flour to a stew to be a "supplement". Adding protein in the same way is no different. It's a pretty normal and healthy thing to do, is the point.
In the end, eating protein powder is safe. Whey protein in particular, which the article above notes as not being the culprit of heavy metal poisoning. It's mostly the vegetarians being screwed, there.
I'm not trying to say that protein supplements are unsafe, merely that they are unnecessary and eating whole foods is vastly more preferable for various reasons. I have to say, though, the more...
I'm not trying to say that protein supplements are unsafe, merely that they are unnecessary and eating whole foods is vastly more preferable for various reasons.
I have to say, though, the more you use this flour metaphor the less I agree with you about it. You don't add flour to soup to increase it's nutrition, you do it to alter the texture. White flour is also not great for your health precisely because of the imbalanced nutrients. It's actually funny because protein is one of the areas where I think a degree of refinement is useful; I eat tofu pretty regularly.
You're speaking in absolutes, and what you're saying is simply not true for everyone. I'm not a "professional athlete" but I do lift weights 4x a week, and to get the protein I require for optimal...
I'm not trying to say that protein supplements are unsafe, merely that they are unnecessary
You're speaking in absolutes, and what you're saying is simply not true for everyone. I'm not a "professional athlete" but I do lift weights 4x a week, and to get the protein I require for optimal muscle growth (which many studies have shown to be 0.8-1g of protein per lbs of body weight per day) purely from eating whole foods would be exceedingly difficult to the point of being unfeasible.
I still get the majority of my protein from whole foods (milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, lean meats, eggs, etc). However, by including a protein shake every day, and the occasional protein bar, it gives me a lot more leeway so I don't need to obsess about getting 40+g of protein in every single meal I eat.
People who talk GLP-1 medication also find it exceptionally difficult to eat enough food to hit the required protein targets to not have issues with the rapid weight loss, and tend to take protein...
People who talk GLP-1 medication also find it exceptionally difficult to eat enough food to hit the required protein targets to not have issues with the rapid weight loss, and tend to take protein shakes.
People also often find themselves medically unable to eat solid food and have to drink protein shakes. (Having your wisdom teeth removed is a very easy way to have to do that in the short term.)
Yeah, I'm not on a GLP-1, but I do intermittent fast (unrelated to weight-loss) and have for years now. And I am also still on a somewhat calorie restricted diet, although I'm fully in maintenance...
Yeah, I'm not on a GLP-1, but I do intermittent fast (unrelated to weight-loss) and have for years now. And I am also still on a somewhat calorie restricted diet, although I'm fully in maintenance mode now that I've finally hit my goal weight. So I struggle to consume enough "whole food" protein during my eating window and within my calorie target too. A daily protein shake and the occasional protein bar has been a lifesaver for me though.
I'm not either, but my go-to breakfast lately has been protein-enriched yogurt smoothies. I try to keep my breakfast calories down so they don't infringe on lunch and dinner, but I need something...
I'm not either, but my go-to breakfast lately has been protein-enriched yogurt smoothies. I try to keep my breakfast calories down so they don't infringe on lunch and dinner, but I need something to keep away the nausea-inducing hunger that shows up if I don't eat a full meal within two hours of waking up. High protein stuff like that (or Oikos Triple Zero yogurt) does the trick.
Sometimes I'll also do scrambled eggs, if I have time.
LOL, we are almost exact opposites when it comes to morning routines. The entire reason I intermittent fast is because if I eat within the first 2 hours after waking up I am almost guaranteed to...
LOL, we are almost exact opposites when it comes to morning routines. The entire reason I intermittent fast is because if I eat within the first 2 hours after waking up I am almost guaranteed to vomit that food back up because of how nauseous it will inevitably make me feel. :P
The first thing I eat after my stomach finally does settle down a few hours after waking up is similar to you though... usually eggs and sourdough toast, or overnight oats with fruit, or a big bowl of Oikos 0% High Protein Greek yogurt or non-fat cottage cheese along with a tiny bit of granola sprinkled on top (for crunch) and a bunch of fresh fruit mixed in or on the side.
That's interesting. I don't know why I have that reaction, but I have pretty much my whole life. (No blood sugar issues either, at least according to the A1C tests on my annual blood panel.) I do...
That's interesting. I don't know why I have that reaction, but I have pretty much my whole life. (No blood sugar issues either, at least according to the A1C tests on my annual blood panel.)
I do also like overnight oats. I don't do it often, but they're pretty good too when I need a break from yogurt.
Yeah, I don't know why I have that reaction either, and have pretty much my whole life too. Over the years I've had several upper and lower GI endoscopes, barium and stool tests, and blood work...
Yeah, I don't know why I have that reaction either, and have pretty much my whole life too. Over the years I've had several upper and lower GI endoscopes, barium and stool tests, and blood work done, amongst other things, and nothing has ever shown anything of major concern. No ulcers, no polyps, no inflammation, no signs of infection/disease. So it's more than likely just related to my panic disorder (which often causes me to throw up), and I've just had to learn to live with as best I can. :/
I generally agree with you in this thread; I don’t think sups are inherently a bad thing and they can be helpful for people with particular limitations or goals. I’m just dropping by to give a...
I generally agree with you in this thread; I don’t think sups are inherently a bad thing and they can be helpful for people with particular limitations or goals.
I’m just dropping by to give a shout out to my favorite meal: rice and lentils or beans with yogurt. Need 30g of protein in an easy meal? Throw down 100g each of rice, chickpeas, and Greek yogurt then add a boiled egg on the side. Doesn’t quite get you to 40+, but it would be easy to do with meat or an extra egg and some almonds.
At the end of the day: if it fits your macros, it fits your macros.
Rice & beans has been a go-to of mine since even well before I started lifting weights. I'm much more a fan of a black beans than lentils though, personally. In fact, I have some left-over,...
Rice & beans has been a go-to of mine since even well before I started lifting weights. I'm much more a fan of a black beans than lentils though, personally. In fact, I have some left-over, homemade, chicken & black bean fried rice sitting in my fridge as we speak that I plan on frying an egg to throw on top of and eating for lunch. ;)
What absolutes am I talking in? I am speaking generally. I also work out four times a week generally, and I do not take any protein supplements. There is no need to strive for optimum nutrition....
What absolutes am I talking in? I am speaking generally.
I also work out four times a week generally, and I do not take any protein supplements. There is no need to strive for optimum nutrition. You don’t need to obsess over anything. The human body is pretty flexible when it comes to what you eat.
You're speaking in generalities but also seemingly ignoring huge segments of the population that can actually greatly benefit from increased protein intake through supplementation. And that...
You're speaking in generalities but also seemingly ignoring huge segments of the population that can actually greatly benefit from increased protein intake through supplementation. And that doesn't just mean professional athletes or bodybuilders either. Basically anyone who lifts weights, and even elderly people can benefit from eating more protein since it helps them build and maintain their muscle mass... and moreover, higher muscle mass is a significant predictor for longevity.
There is no need to strive for optimum nutrition.
Why not? Thanks to protein powder and bars, it's been relatively easy to make sure I get consistent optimal protein intake every day. And not doing that undermines all the effort I've been putting in to growing my muscles. Even if it's only 10% less muscle growth, that adds up to a significant amount of wasted effort over time.
Have I made you upset? I honestly kind of feel like I’m being baited into an argument here. I don’t think anything I said was particularly controversial other than my personal opinions on dairy.
Have I made you upset? I honestly kind of feel like I’m being baited into an argument here. I don’t think anything I said was particularly controversial other than my personal opinions on dairy.
Opening the thread by calling protein supplements a "fad", saying "a healthy person should not be taking protein supplements at all", and only acknowledging benefits to protein deficient people or...
Opening the thread by calling protein supplements a "fad", saying "a healthy person should not be taking protein supplements at all", and only acknowledging benefits to protein deficient people or professional athletes are fairly controversial and absolute. Dismissing a desire to maximize nutrition to get the most out of workouts as unnecessary is a little insulting to anyone who cares about that.
I find that to be an incredibly uncharitable take on nearly everything I had to say. I can see how you can misconstrue what I meant though. The fad I was talking about was not specifically about...
I find that to be an incredibly uncharitable take on nearly everything I had to say. I can see how you can misconstrue what I meant though.
The fad I was talking about was not specifically about using protein powders as a way to enhance workouts. It was how average people - including those who live sedentary lifestyles - are now obsessing over protein intake. It was about one in every three food product ad I see has talking points about how they are packed with protein.
When I say that average healthy people should not be getting all of their nutrients from their food, this is not controversial from a medical perspective. Pretty much every dietician right now is going to tell you that you should eat a diet that is primarily made up from whole foods and meets your macronutrient requirements generally.
I have never said that you can’t try to optimize your nutrition for muscle growth. I’ve only been saying that it is not necessary to do so. If you are insulted than I feel you are looking for reasons to be insulted. For Christ’s sake, I have a tub of protein shake mix myself for when I can’t meet my protein goal with my own food. I just prioritize eating protein filled food as a first resort. And I have been making steady gains at the gym without any problems.
Not particularly... but I did find your initial comment and some of your replies a bit dismissive and a tad insulting, like DrStone said. Perhaps that is uncharitable to you, but it is genuinely...
Have I made you upset?
Not particularly... but I did find your initial comment and some of your replies a bit dismissive and a tad insulting, like DrStone said. Perhaps that is uncharitable to you, but it is genuinely how I felt when reading them. And, admittedly, we've also had a few somewhat heated arguments on here before about nutrition, which probably contributed to that feeling as well. If I've totally misinterpreted what you actually meant to get across with all your comments, then I do apologize though.
p.s. I think had you mentioned that you yourself take protein supplements on occasion at the outset, that might have helped it seem less like you were attacking other people who take them more regularly.
I'm glad that we could clear the air. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in writing that; I'm getting over a cold right now and I was writing those comments late at night, so my mind was a bit fuzzy.
I'm glad that we could clear the air. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in writing that; I'm getting over a cold right now and I was writing those comments late at night, so my mind was a bit fuzzy.
Out of curiosity, what is this optimal muscle growth needed for? Like, outside of lifting weights, are you unable to live life in the way you want if you don't attain optimal muscle growth - or is...
to get the protein I require for optimal muscle growth (which many studies have shown to be 0.8-1g of protein per lbs of body weight per day)
Out of curiosity, what is this optimal muscle growth needed for? Like, outside of lifting weights, are you unable to live life in the way you want if you don't attain optimal muscle growth - or is the optimising mostly serving the weightlifting hobby?
Speaking for myself, I weight train primarily for health and functional strength. Muscle burns more calories, stabilizes and strengthens joints, building and maintaining muscle early has huge...
Speaking for myself, I weight train primarily for health and functional strength. Muscle burns more calories, stabilizes and strengthens joints, building and maintaining muscle early has huge benefits for long term active aging, fix imbalances and combat issues of a sedentary day job, be able to tackle any job around the house without struggling, etc. After having kids, I wanted enough strength to comfortably carry and keep up with them as they grow, and to be confident I could get both of them out of physical danger at the same time. There’s a secondary aesthetic goal to look less like a skeleton for my spouse, though she’s always said I was fine.
Now, I hate weight training, absolutely not what I’d consider a hobby, but it’s the most effective and efficient means to reach those goals that fits in a busy schedule. If I’m going to suffer through it, I absolutely want to maximize the payoff any way I safely can. Smart programming, progressive overload, enough calories, balanced healthy diet, sufficient protein for growth. Protein supplements are an easy way to optimize that last one, especially if I want to eat the same meals as the rest of my family, which might not always meet the threshold.
Sounds reasonable enough. I'm inherently skeptical of relying on nutrition that doesn't read as "food" to me, which does include protein powders and many protein bars (due to their strikingly...
Sounds reasonable enough.
I'm inherently skeptical of relying on nutrition that doesn't read as "food" to me, which does include protein powders and many protein bars (due to their strikingly artificial taste). This skepticism first activated decades ago when I was a teenager and low-fat items started being introduced. It didn't make sense to me that fat - a macronutrient vital to our health - got taken out of food as it must obviously be substituted with something less vital and more artificial, in order to bring back the original volume and consistency.
Like, why don't people rather eat smaller quantities of the same, unaltered food if they're currently eating too much for their health? Why put something in your body that doesn't seem to belong there but that your system must process anyway, now that it's there? And well, recently I heard that the emulsifiers this process often requires may cause adverse health effects (low-grade inflammation, leaky gut / increased intestinal permeability, disrupting gut microbiota). It just took a few decades for the findings to emerge, and they're not super conclusive yet from what I can tell, but I'm still glad I never got on the low fat bandwagon.
Similarly, I struggle to believe that optimal health outcomes wouldn't be within reach without protein powders. Given how poorly my body used to work before I fixed my eating habits, I'm already so pleased about my current ability to develop muscle that I haven't felt the need to "optimise" further. I fall a little short of the recommended daily amount of protein but it wouldn't be hard to fix that by a minor dietary change. And maybe I'll want to do that once I'm further along in my health journey - we'll see!
I get that some subset of people who are after extreme results, need supplements to achieve them and once achieved, to maintain them. It just doesn't make sense to me that a member of a hunter-gatherer tribe wouldn't have been able to achieve a state of "optimal" health because there were no protein powders available in the savannah, or something. It probably comes down to differing definitions of what optimal means.
ETA, obviously if there just isn't enough protein in the family meals and the situation can't be fixed, then I get the idea that it may be better to take a supplement.
There's nothing inherently "unfood" about protein powder, anymore than flour is not food. The protein from protein powder ultimately just comes from milk. The whey that's leftover from cheese...
There's nothing inherently "unfood" about protein powder, anymore than flour is not food. The protein from protein powder ultimately just comes from milk. The whey that's leftover from cheese production has almost nothing but protein (the rest of the fats and carbs are in the curds of cheese). That whey is dehydrated and turned into a powder.
It's not some mystical substance synthesized from raw elements. It's just using all of animal products.
I don't think appealing to hunter-gatherer pasts is very worthwhile. For one, there were a lot of things about human physiology as hunter-gatherers that is not optimal. And the goals of our hunter-gatherer ancestors are very different from what anyone would want to do today.
You can certainly reach protein goals with only whole foods, but the reality is that we have lives to live, and protein powder helps reach those when we want to hang out with friends for dinner and get some drinks at the bar later.
Compare protein powder with milk: if protein powder comes from milk, why not just drink that amount of milk? Because that amount of milk would also contain a copious amount of fat and carbs. You'd have to design your entire daily meal around it. What protein powder allows is for you to control the macronutrients independently of each other. When you've had a rich dinner that you know overallocates on fats and carbs, a protein shake is a way to to get the protein up without then adding a bunch more fats and carbs, when you've already more than hit your daily amount for those.
In that sense, protein powder is really more important for the everyman, who wants be fit and able while working a 9-5 job and who likes hanging out with friends and has other obligations, rather than the extreme professional athlete, who can have every meal prepared by a chef to spreadsheet level macronutrient accuracy.
Well sure, and the chemical components in emulsifiers also ultimately come from nature. That doesn't mean they are as good for us as items that haven't been industrially processed to the same...
The protein from protein powder ultimately just comes from milk.
Well sure, and the chemical components in emulsifiers also ultimately come from nature. That doesn't mean they are as good for us as items that haven't been industrially processed to the same extent. Note that I'm not trying to vilify protein powder either - I have no idea what its health effects are (besides those that people take it for). I'm just skeptical of things that don't seem to meet one of my main criteria for food: palatability.
When you've had a rich dinner that you know overallocates on fats and carbs, a protein shake is a way to to get the protein up without then adding a bunch more fats and carbs, when you've already more than hit your daily amount for those.
I hear you. I tend to just accept that I didn't hit my macros that day because I do hit them most days. It took some effort in the beginning to learn to eat like this, but it was more or less a one time investment, so much less demanding than doing regular exercise for the rest of your life.
I have a few reasons for lifting as a woman: I'm on testosterone blockers (not for gender affirming care, I'm a cis woman). Taking T blockers can lead to muscle loss, so I'm lifting to counter...
I have a few reasons for lifting as a woman:
I'm on testosterone blockers (not for gender affirming care, I'm a cis woman). Taking T blockers can lead to muscle loss, so I'm lifting to counter that.
I'm hitting 40 soon. The older you get, the more muscle you lose. With muscle loss in older age comes the increased risk of injury and incapacitation. I want to avoid that.
I want to get stronger. I've been weak and noodle armed for most of my life. You know the kid that gets picked last for sports teams? That was me, and with good reason. Now I do photography as a hobby and carry around heavy equipmentand have to lift a heavy camera to my face and keep it steady. Can't do that with noodle arms.
I also just want to get swole lol
Having said all this, I'm working on one kidney so I can't go over 1g/kg of protein. I struggle to eat normal quantities of food and get enough calories, and that was the case before lifting. I don't consume protein powders regularly, but they're helpful as a backup when I struggle to eat enough to get the right amount of protein (and calories in general).
I hear you, I was that kid too! I also struggled for the longest time to eat healthy, balanced meals. I thought that there was simply something wrong with my body and felt guilty that I couldn't...
I hear you, I was that kid too!
I also struggled for the longest time to eat healthy, balanced meals. I thought that there was simply something wrong with my body and felt guilty that I couldn't make myself eat 3-5 meals a day (the official recommendation in my country). Finally it clicked when I decided to try keto to help my ADHD symptoms. It removed the excessive glucose fluctuations that cause a hunger response that is unrelated to your actual energy deficit. I was able to actually listen to my body and what it needed. Once I was fat adapted, I didn't feel any need to eat more than one meal a day. No matter what the recs say, this is the right way for me. The food I get to eat tastes great because I need to get the while day's worth of fat, salt, etc. from a single meal. Eating isn't a struggle anymore.
After this change I've been able to exercise productively for the first time, rather than feeling like I'm just damaging my body. Even doing yoga used to be a challenge but it started going well a few years back and now I'm at a point where I've started doing a running program for beginners (one that I've tried twice before and didn't get anywhere). I'm astonished how much better my body works! Once I get this down, I'll probably look into weight training or something similar. Or just start doing a more demanding version of yoga. I'm also going to sign up for street dance classes as soon as my stamina is good enough!
I'm sure that using protein supplements as a backup is better than not eating enough. For me, a few pecan nuts has been enough if I feel at all peckish after exercise but I guess it isn't out of the question to start eating a second, small meal once I ramp things up.
I was 300lbs in my 20s. I'm in my 40s now, and down to 155lbs thanks to a significantly better diet and working out consistently. And as for muscle growth, for me it's mostly about long-term...
Out of curiosity, what is this optimal muscle growth needed for?
I was 300lbs in my 20s. I'm in my 40s now, and down to 155lbs thanks to a significantly better diet and working out consistently. And as for muscle growth, for me it's mostly about long-term health (physical and mental), but also aesthetics. I've felt truly ashamed of my body for the majority of my life, so I'm trying to fix that by turning it into something I can be proud of... which is something I have actually already partially achieved. I can already comfortably wear a relatively tight t-shirt instead of an oversized one with an overshirt too, since I don't have moobs I feel the need to hide anymore. And, in fact, I'm actually starting to develop decent looking pecs in their place which is awesome and something I've always wanted. And I also really like the feeling of confidence and self-esteem that growing my muscles has given me, so I want to continue doing that as efficiently as I can, which is why I'm trying to stay at optimal protein intake. I don't plan on becoming a professional bodybuilder, since being that big has never appealed to me... but I wouldn't mind eventually looking like one of those people on the cover of fitness magazines. ;)
This is easy for me to understand, thanks for explaining. My gripe with the whole "optimising" idea (I would rather say maximising) is that an end goal that would be unattainable and...
I've felt truly ashamed of my body for the majority of my life, so I'm trying to fix that by turning it into something I can be proud of...
I wouldn't mind eventually looking like one of those people on the cover of fitness magazines. ;)
This is easy for me to understand, thanks for explaining. My gripe with the whole "optimising" idea (I would rather say maximising) is that an end goal that would be unattainable and unmaintainable in a natural environment is by definition not optimal in my book. However, if the point is to attain a body like this, not merely to optimise your overall health, then sure! Humans do all sorts of unnatural things driven by personal interest.
Don't forget to post a link when you land your first cover. :)
What do you mean by "natural environment"? Like, if we were suddenly transported to the year 10000BCE, if something were unattainable there then it's "unnatural" and not "optimal"? That feels like...
What do you mean by "natural environment"? Like, if we were suddenly transported to the year 10000BCE, if something were unattainable there then it's "unnatural" and not "optimal"? That feels like a pretty classic example of the appeal to nature fallacy to me. And given the much shorter life spans and increased levels of overall suffering that all the people who lived totally "natural" lives before the advent of modern medicine and technology, I don't see how that could possibly ever be considered an ideal to strive towards returning to. Going back to that sounds like absolute hell to me, personally... Especially since I would very likely be dead already without the advent of totally "unnatural" modern antibiotics.
But even ignoring that, people have been consuming milk and milk byproducts since at least 5000 BCE. Hippocrates would prescribe whey to his patients back in Ancient Greece, and there is even a nursury ryhme from the 1800s about eating whey. :P And the only difference between that whey and modern whey protein powder is that we've learned to turn it into a powder by spray drying it. Whey is not some artificial serum created in a lab. It's just the protein component of cow's milk that separates from the fats during the cheese making process.
An environment of nutritional ingredients that can be found or grown in nature and turned into palatable dishes by domestic means. I understand that whey isn't processed to the same extent that...
What do you mean by "natural environment"?
An environment of nutritional ingredients that can be found or grown in nature and turned into palatable dishes by domestic means.
I understand that whey isn't processed to the same extent that low-fat foods are, but it's also probably not something we could conceivably make at home, although I'm too lazy to look up if it would be harder to make than for example sugar or flour. Both of which are already borderline "unnatural" according to my definition, but I do still eat a little bit of bread because I find the best ones very enjoyable to eat. Whey is not something I enjoy at all, which ultimately excludes it from my diet.
Not true at all! Homemade cheese and strained yogurt making is remarkably easy/simple to do and still incredibly common the world over... and both result in whey as a byproduct. You literally just...
whey isn't processed to the same extent that low-fat foods are, but it's also probably not something we could conceivably make at home
Not true at all! Homemade cheese and strained yogurt making is remarkably easy/simple to do and still incredibly common the world over... and both result in whey as a byproduct. You literally just need to pour a milk coagulant like rennet, an acid like lemon/fig juice, or a yogurt bacteria culture, into full-fat cream and it will naturally "curdle", separating into curds and whey. And if you then dump those curds into cheese-cloth and give it a squeeze you get even more whey out of it. And if you have a dehydrator (or an oven that can maintain <130°F) you could even turn that liquid whey into whey powder yourself... which some people actually do.
Whey is not something I enjoy at all, which ultimately excludes it from my diet.
Fair enough. To each their own. I personally love milk and most milk products (including whey protein) though. :)
I see. Thank you for the info! Sounds quite similar to sugar or flour then. I eat a large portion of full fat Turkish yoghurt daily with fresh berries/fruit and pecan nuts. I'm sure whatever whey...
both result in whey as a byproduct
if you have a dehydrator (or an oven that can maintain <130°F) you could even turn that liquid whey into whey powder yourself
I see. Thank you for the info! Sounds quite similar to sugar or flour then.
I personally love milk and most milk products (including whey protein) though. :)
I eat a large portion of full fat Turkish yoghurt daily with fresh berries/fruit and pecan nuts. I'm sure whatever whey powder based dish you're having is equally delicious. :p
I totally get where you're coming from, and for a layperson maintaining the same weight, you're spot on. However, for athletes, people trying to gain (or, especially, lose weight), and some other...
I totally get where you're coming from, and for a layperson maintaining the same weight, you're spot on. However, for athletes, people trying to gain (or, especially, lose weight), and some other categories like vegetarians and the elderly, protein supplementation ranges from "really helpful" to "basically mandatory." If you're interested we can discuss specific recommendations for each group and why, but I don't want to lecture you if you know (or don't care).
Yeah, as someone who really struggles to put on weight, if I don't load my body with protein pre- and post-workout, I literally cannot build strength. Dietary protein is of course superior, and...
Yeah, as someone who really struggles to put on weight, if I don't load my body with protein pre- and post-workout, I literally cannot build strength.
Dietary protein is of course superior, and these supplements are a great example of why that's a reliable heuristic. However, if I had to rely on whole foods for protein, my only options for protein-dense, non-filling foods would be...sardines and tofu? Honestly struggling to come up with alternatives that I could scarf down in a couple minutes and wouldn't interfere with my range of motion.
As it stands, I use whey protein. If that's somehow worse for me than yogurt, I could switch to making yogurt smoothies. But at that point, what's the dang difference except the aesthetic?
Yup. My ADHD meds killed my appetite so it's a big struggle to eat enough to even maintain my weight, let alone get my muscle back. Protein powder and shakes are something I try to hold on to what...
Yup. My ADHD meds killed my appetite so it's a big struggle to eat enough to even maintain my weight, let alone get my muscle back. Protein powder and shakes are something I try to hold on to what I've got left
I do know that there are categories of people who should be consuming more protein than the average baseline, but supplementing should be a last resort. The first thing you should do if you really...
I do know that there are categories of people who should be consuming more protein than the average baseline, but supplementing should be a last resort. The first thing you should do if you really need to increase protein is to increase the amount of protein you get from your food. There are many sources of protein to pick from.
But frankly I think that bringing up athletes in this kind of topic is something of a cop-out. There are very few professional atheletes on the planet compared to the rest of the world.
Apologies for not being clear -- I don't mean professional athletes, I mean anybody who exercises 3x/week or more with any sort of goals, progression, etc.
Apologies for not being clear -- I don't mean professional athletes, I mean anybody who exercises 3x/week or more with any sort of goals, progression, etc.
In my experience, a 120g protein/day diet with an extra protein shake a day usually ends up being much more balanced than trying to get 140g of protein a day from normal food
If you are protein-deficient, it's because you aren't eating a balanced diet
In my experience, a 120g protein/day diet with an extra protein shake a day usually ends up being much more balanced than trying to get 140g of protein a day from normal food
I haven't read this book (yet), so maybe he talks about it, but my first thought on hearing this is that most cereals in North America are fortified with vitamins and minerals - including iron -...
The first thing I thought about when I saw the headline was that section in "Salt Sugar Fat" by Michael Moss where he tried cornflakes made without salt, and how it tasted metallic; it was apparently the reason why they have salt in them - to mask that taste
I haven't read this book (yet), so maybe he talks about it, but my first thought on hearing this is that most cereals in North America are fortified with vitamins and minerals - including iron - which is likely a big contributor to the metallic taste.
I would be interested to see if a non-fortified, salt-free cornflake would still taste metallic.
European here. Food Laws are much stricter, thus nearly all Cornflakes you can buy are without added Vitamins/Micronutrients. I have never in my life experienced a metallic Cornflake, be it...
I would be interested to see if a non-fortified, salt-free cornflake would still taste metallic.
European here. Food Laws are much stricter, thus nearly all Cornflakes you can buy are without added Vitamins/Micronutrients. I have never in my life experienced a metallic Cornflake, be it sweetend, in Mueslis or plain old flakes without anything added. Feel free to ask more questions :-)
This is likely because most breakfast cereals (and many flour-based products) are fortified with elemental iron (literally, food grade iron filings). Run a few pounds of any generic baking flour...
he tried cornflakes made without salt, and how it tasted metallic;
This is likely because most breakfast cereals (and many flour-based products) are fortified with elemental iron (literally, food grade iron filings). Run a few pounds of any generic baking flour across a rare earth magnet and you see it accumulate; a cornflake floating in water will behave kind of like a weak compass needle. If they weren't fortified like that they probably wouldn't taste metallic. You'd still need some sodium for balancing the taste/flavor, but it likely wouldn't need near as much.
I supplemented with protein shakes here and there when I was pregnant, especially during the first and third trimester. I was too nauseated to hold anything down during the first trimester. I used...
I supplemented with protein shakes here and there when I was pregnant, especially during the first and third trimester. I was too nauseated to hold anything down during the first trimester. I used the shakes to quickly drink in order to keep up with the calories. And during the third trimester because I had little physical space left in my stomach coupled with reflux. The recommended solution is to eat smaller meals often, which is hard to do when I was working and was fatigued. So I drank shakes since they were easy to digest. I am still not out of the wood yet since I am breastfeeding.
Fortunately, the powder I am using isn't too bad according to the report. But I can see this being a problem for pregnant and breastfeeding person since fetus/child is sensitive to lead and high lead can cause developmental problem. Pregnant person is already on a restricted diet and moreso if someone is diagnosed with gestational diabetes. So having less option isn't ideal.
I recommend looking at the article to see their charts of which brands are safer or less safe
Protein supplements are wildly popular, but CR’s tests of 23 products found that more than two-thirds of them contain more lead in a single serving than our experts say is safe to have in a day
I recommend looking at the article to see their charts of which brands are safer or less safe
Yep, for example Dymatize (the brand I use) is safe for up to 4 servings per day. I tend to use a serving a couple times a week so it's really not a big concern at all.
Yep, for example Dymatize (the brand I use) is safe for up to 4 servings per day. I tend to use a serving a couple times a week so it's really not a big concern at all.
I feel like this article is slightly misleading. This is a huge deal, and I hope people are able to hear this news and stop poisoning themselves ASAP. I just wish they'd specified the form of...
I feel like this article is slightly misleading. They've sampled pea protein powders exclusively, but the lack of specificity and number of products tested implies that they've covered the protein powder market more generally.
This is a huge deal, and I hope people are able to hear this news and stop poisoning themselves ASAP. I just wish they'd specified the form of protein before the last third of the page, or tested other forms on the market as well.
Yeah, reminds me of the reports of contaminants in dog food last year. It's a shame, peas should be an excellent "filler" for pet food. We really need to do better about heavy metals in agriculture.
Yeah, reminds me of the reports of contaminants in dog food last year. It's a shame, peas should be an excellent "filler" for pet food. We really need to do better about heavy metals in agriculture.
I don't think this is true. They say "All the plant-based powders CR tested relied on pea protein as a main ingredient." But they also tested many non-plant-based powders.
They've sampled pea protein powders exclusively
I don't think this is true. They say "All the plant-based powders CR tested relied on pea protein as a main ingredient." But they also tested many non-plant-based powders.
You're right. They explicitly state it: And later compare:
You're right. They explicitly state it:
For our tests, CR selected a range of bestselling dairy, beef, and plant-based protein supplements, including protein powders and ready-to-drink protein shakes.
And later compare:
The lead levels in plant-based products were, on average, nine times the amount found in those made with dairy proteins like whey, and twice as great as beef-based ones. Dairy-based protein powders and shakes generally had the lowest amounts of lead, but half of the products we tested still had high enough levels of contamination that CR’s experts advise against daily use.
While not a protein powder, it would be interesting to see if this trend extends to food-replacement products such as yfood- I've been working through a few bags of the powder as a way to increase...
While not a protein powder, it would be interesting to see if this trend extends to food-replacement products such as yfood- I've been working through a few bags of the powder as a way to increase my food intake over the one-ish meals a day that has become a potentially unhealthy habit.
I suspect it unfortunately would given that they already tested Huel Black Edition, which is marketed as a "high-protein complete meal", and it had the second highest concentration of lead...
it would be interesting to see if this trend extends to food-replacement products such as yfood
I suspect it unfortunately would given that they already tested Huel Black Edition, which is marketed as a "high-protein complete meal", and it had the second highest concentration of lead (6mcg/serving) out of all the products they tested.
My reasons for using vegan powders was simply because they had in my opinion a more diverse offering of contents, namely fiber. I already blend frozen vegetables into my smoothies but now I’m...
My reasons for using vegan powders was simply because they had in my opinion a more diverse offering of contents, namely fiber. I already blend frozen vegetables into my smoothies but now I’m debating if I should switch away from pea protein.
Thank you for sharing. I did feel like the seemingly infinite brands and drop shipping inclusion must have somehow made the quality suffer in general. I didn’t find and of the brands I use there,...
Thank you for sharing. I did feel like the seemingly infinite brands and drop shipping inclusion must have somehow made the quality suffer in general. I didn’t find and of the brands I use there, however, I literally just purchased some Huel meals (not the one listed) because I’m going to be on the road a lot and I wanted some easy meals on the road. I hope huel will do some serious checking up and warn us, because right now I’m not really sure if I should replan my whole food plan.
If this is your first time with Huel, please be aware that it can cause some people to have bowel experiences... not compatible... with being out on the road. Some adjust after a a bit of time,...
If this is your first time with Huel, please be aware that it can cause some people to have bowel experiences... not compatible... with being out on the road. Some adjust after a a bit of time, some have better luck with certain flavors (slightly different artificial sweeteners or amounts, etc.), and some unfortunate souls remain frequently explosive as long as they continue.
omg that's such a good warning :D Do you think that happens to the hot&savory one too? That ones more like an actual meal... I was planning on having one of those drink meals just before my...
omg that's such a good warning :D Do you think that happens to the hot&savory one too? That ones more like an actual meal...
I was planning on having one of those drink meals just before my flight, but now I am reconsidering that plan
Sorry my friend only has experience with the classic powders. Are you looking for something you can bring with you to the airport (or even on the plane), or something you can slam down on the way...
Sorry I my friend only has experience with the classic powders. Are you looking for something you can bring with you to the airport (or even on the plane), or something you can slam down on the way out the door?
I have both - I will go on a 2 week trip around namibia and wanted some easy food that is nutritious enough and vegan. And I have one ready to drink meal that I would have drunk maybe at the airport
I have both - I will go on a 2 week trip around namibia and wanted some easy food that is nutritious enough and vegan. And I have one ready to drink meal that I would have drunk maybe at the airport
It sounds like the contamination is coming from crops, and the ultra processed nature of it. They were testing for pea protein. But another Consumer Lab report recently called out cassava and a bunch of other ingredients.
Basically I'll just assume nothing's safe. -..-
Just so you know, the "safe level" used here is California's Proposition 65 MADL levels, which are defined as 1/1000th of the level at which there are any observable reproductive or developmental health effects. Those are known to be extremely cautious guidelines leading to many random products having cancer warning labels in California.
The CR article explains this, and shows how it's still an issue even by FDA's much less strict reference levels (and of course, there are no safe levels of lead exposure), but I just want to point out that while this is bad, "200% of safe daily level" sounds much scarier than it actually is.
Consumer Reports does have a bit of a history exaggerating the danger levels of toxic chemicals found in stuff
(I mostly wrote this for myself to save myself from a hypochondriac anxiety attack though)
Looks like I lucked out with my optimum nutrition gold standard.
Looks like I lucked out yet again by not pursuing personal health.
Dr. Zoidberg: Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor.
I honestly really hate the whole protein fad. Yes, you need to eat protein to build muscles. But the amount of people who are suffering from insufficient protein intake are vanishingly small in the rich countries that are going protein-crazy. Especially in the US where large swaths of people demand meat for practically every meal.
Generally speaking, a healthy person should not be taking protein supplements at all. Protein is a nutrient, and you should be getting all of the nutrients you need from your food. If you are protein-deficient, it's because you aren't eating a balanced diet, and that's something that our collective societies really need to spend more effort into combating because imbalanced diet is a cause of major public health issues.
This issue with heavy metals in protein supplements is also another aspect in the discussions on ultraprocessed food. The first thing I thought about when I saw the headline was that section in "Salt Sugar Fat" by Michael Moss where he tried cornflakes made without salt, and how it tasted metallic; it was apparently the reason why they have salt in them - to mask that taste.
But to be fair, it might not be the processing and machinery causing this issue; the fact that it mostly affects plant sources implies that it's a problem with the crops being used to make them. Frankly, I find that to be a much worse scenario, because that means that the farms meant to be feeding us are poisoning us instead.
If you're actually working out actively, it's not a matter of "sufficient or not". It's a sliding scale. We have double blind studies showing that muscle growth and protein intake is causated. Of course, there is diminishing returns, but many studies have shown that it's quite shockingly high - upwards of 1g per lb of bodyweight.
It is, in the end, quite difficult to eat that much protein from whole foods. If you're, say, a 180 lb athlete, you're supposed to intake anywhere from 100-180g of protein a day to maintain your muscle mass.
I would also counter the idea that whey powder, which is vast majority of protein powder consumed today, is in some way fundamentally different, and should be considered a "supplement" as opposed to simply a type of food. It's really no more processed than, say, white flour. It is merely the solids from whey leftover from after the curds are removed when making cheese. Everyone consumes whey when they drink milk.
We've use reusing whey leftover from cheese production for thousands of years, for both human use and animal feed, for essentially the same reason - extra fortification of nutrients. Make use of all the animal, and all. Whey protein just has the water removed for easier transport.
Insanity!
(Sorry, I'm just too shocked by this unholy mix of measurement systems to write anything coherent)
2.2g per kg
You are right that it's a sliding scale, but as I was saying in another comment, professional athletes are an outlier and the average person should not be basing their diet on a lifestyle they do not actually live. I have heard that there have been recent studies that have shown a correlation of high protein intake to lower lifespans, even - though to be fair, they hardly represent scientific consensus.
I'm not trying to vilify whey. I think it's gross, and like all animal-based food people shouldn't be eating it, but it's not entirely based on processing. Still it's very hard to consider it to be food. It's fairly rare to purchase unflavored unsweetened plain whey, even for bodybuilders in my experience, though the recent protein explosion is seeing more people using it as a component to their cooking. But heck, in your next paragraph you basically described it as a supplement.
You don't need to be a professional athlete, just anyone who wants to build muscle, whether that be for it's own sake, to play a sport, or to do difficult hikes or whatever. Athlete is a fairly broad category.
Why so? There's plenty of food that can be considered "gross". The part I want to push back against is the idea that whey protein is some kind of synthetic material or something. It's just part of milk. In the same way that white flour is a flour that is nearly only simple carbohydrates, whey powder is a flour that is nearly only protein.
You probably wouldn't consider adding flour to a stew to be a "supplement". Adding protein in the same way is no different. It's a pretty normal and healthy thing to do, is the point.
In the end, eating protein powder is safe. Whey protein in particular, which the article above notes as not being the culprit of heavy metal poisoning. It's mostly the vegetarians being screwed, there.
I'm not trying to say that protein supplements are unsafe, merely that they are unnecessary and eating whole foods is vastly more preferable for various reasons.
I have to say, though, the more you use this flour metaphor the less I agree with you about it. You don't add flour to soup to increase it's nutrition, you do it to alter the texture. White flour is also not great for your health precisely because of the imbalanced nutrients. It's actually funny because protein is one of the areas where I think a degree of refinement is useful; I eat tofu pretty regularly.
You're speaking in absolutes, and what you're saying is simply not true for everyone. I'm not a "professional athlete" but I do lift weights 4x a week, and to get the protein I require for optimal muscle growth (which many studies have shown to be 0.8-1g of protein per lbs of body weight per day) purely from eating whole foods would be exceedingly difficult to the point of being unfeasible.
I still get the majority of my protein from whole foods (milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, lean meats, eggs, etc). However, by including a protein shake every day, and the occasional protein bar, it gives me a lot more leeway so I don't need to obsess about getting 40+g of protein in every single meal I eat.
People who talk GLP-1 medication also find it exceptionally difficult to eat enough food to hit the required protein targets to not have issues with the rapid weight loss, and tend to take protein shakes.
People also often find themselves medically unable to eat solid food and have to drink protein shakes. (Having your wisdom teeth removed is a very easy way to have to do that in the short term.)
Yeah, I'm not on a GLP-1, but I do intermittent fast (unrelated to weight-loss) and have for years now. And I am also still on a somewhat calorie restricted diet, although I'm fully in maintenance mode now that I've finally hit my goal weight. So I struggle to consume enough "whole food" protein during my eating window and within my calorie target too. A daily protein shake and the occasional protein bar has been a lifesaver for me though.
I'm not either, but my go-to breakfast lately has been protein-enriched yogurt smoothies. I try to keep my breakfast calories down so they don't infringe on lunch and dinner, but I need something to keep away the nausea-inducing hunger that shows up if I don't eat a full meal within two hours of waking up. High protein stuff like that (or Oikos Triple Zero yogurt) does the trick.
Sometimes I'll also do scrambled eggs, if I have time.
LOL, we are almost exact opposites when it comes to morning routines. The entire reason I intermittent fast is because if I eat within the first 2 hours after waking up I am almost guaranteed to vomit that food back up because of how nauseous it will inevitably make me feel. :P
The first thing I eat after my stomach finally does settle down a few hours after waking up is similar to you though... usually eggs and sourdough toast, or overnight oats with fruit, or a big bowl of Oikos 0% High Protein Greek yogurt or non-fat cottage cheese along with a tiny bit of granola sprinkled on top (for crunch) and a bunch of fresh fruit mixed in or on the side.
That's interesting. I don't know why I have that reaction, but I have pretty much my whole life. (No blood sugar issues either, at least according to the A1C tests on my annual blood panel.)
I do also like overnight oats. I don't do it often, but they're pretty good too when I need a break from yogurt.
Yeah, I don't know why I have that reaction either, and have pretty much my whole life too. Over the years I've had several upper and lower GI endoscopes, barium and stool tests, and blood work done, amongst other things, and nothing has ever shown anything of major concern. No ulcers, no polyps, no inflammation, no signs of infection/disease. So it's more than likely just related to my panic disorder (which often causes me to throw up), and I've just had to learn to live with as best I can. :/
I generally agree with you in this thread; I don’t think sups are inherently a bad thing and they can be helpful for people with particular limitations or goals.
I’m just dropping by to give a shout out to my favorite meal: rice and lentils or beans with yogurt. Need 30g of protein in an easy meal? Throw down 100g each of rice, chickpeas, and Greek yogurt then add a boiled egg on the side. Doesn’t quite get you to 40+, but it would be easy to do with meat or an extra egg and some almonds.
At the end of the day: if it fits your macros, it fits your macros.
Rice & beans has been a go-to of mine since even well before I started lifting weights. I'm much more a fan of a black beans than lentils though, personally. In fact, I have some left-over, homemade, chicken & black bean fried rice sitting in my fridge as we speak that I plan on frying an egg to throw on top of and eating for lunch. ;)
What absolutes am I talking in? I am speaking generally.
I also work out four times a week generally, and I do not take any protein supplements. There is no need to strive for optimum nutrition. You don’t need to obsess over anything. The human body is pretty flexible when it comes to what you eat.
You're speaking in generalities but also seemingly ignoring huge segments of the population that can actually greatly benefit from increased protein intake through supplementation. And that doesn't just mean professional athletes or bodybuilders either. Basically anyone who lifts weights, and even elderly people can benefit from eating more protein since it helps them build and maintain their muscle mass... and moreover, higher muscle mass is a significant predictor for longevity.
Why not? Thanks to protein powder and bars, it's been relatively easy to make sure I get consistent optimal protein intake every day. And not doing that undermines all the effort I've been putting in to growing my muscles. Even if it's only 10% less muscle growth, that adds up to a significant amount of wasted effort over time.
Have I made you upset? I honestly kind of feel like I’m being baited into an argument here. I don’t think anything I said was particularly controversial other than my personal opinions on dairy.
Opening the thread by calling protein supplements a "fad", saying "a healthy person should not be taking protein supplements at all", and only acknowledging benefits to protein deficient people or professional athletes are fairly controversial and absolute. Dismissing a desire to maximize nutrition to get the most out of workouts as unnecessary is a little insulting to anyone who cares about that.
I find that to be an incredibly uncharitable take on nearly everything I had to say. I can see how you can misconstrue what I meant though.
The fad I was talking about was not specifically about using protein powders as a way to enhance workouts. It was how average people - including those who live sedentary lifestyles - are now obsessing over protein intake. It was about one in every three food product ad I see has talking points about how they are packed with protein.
When I say that average healthy people should not be getting all of their nutrients from their food, this is not controversial from a medical perspective. Pretty much every dietician right now is going to tell you that you should eat a diet that is primarily made up from whole foods and meets your macronutrient requirements generally.
I have never said that you can’t try to optimize your nutrition for muscle growth. I’ve only been saying that it is not necessary to do so. If you are insulted than I feel you are looking for reasons to be insulted. For Christ’s sake, I have a tub of protein shake mix myself for when I can’t meet my protein goal with my own food. I just prioritize eating protein filled food as a first resort. And I have been making steady gains at the gym without any problems.
Not particularly... but I did find your initial comment and some of your replies a bit dismissive and a tad insulting, like DrStone said. Perhaps that is uncharitable to you, but it is genuinely how I felt when reading them. And, admittedly, we've also had a few somewhat heated arguments on here before about nutrition, which probably contributed to that feeling as well. If I've totally misinterpreted what you actually meant to get across with all your comments, then I do apologize though.
p.s. I think had you mentioned that you yourself take protein supplements on occasion at the outset, that might have helped it seem less like you were attacking other people who take them more regularly.
I'm glad that we could clear the air. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in writing that; I'm getting over a cold right now and I was writing those comments late at night, so my mind was a bit fuzzy.
All's well that ends well. ❤️:)
Out of curiosity, what is this optimal muscle growth needed for? Like, outside of lifting weights, are you unable to live life in the way you want if you don't attain optimal muscle growth - or is the optimising mostly serving the weightlifting hobby?
Speaking for myself, I weight train primarily for health and functional strength. Muscle burns more calories, stabilizes and strengthens joints, building and maintaining muscle early has huge benefits for long term active aging, fix imbalances and combat issues of a sedentary day job, be able to tackle any job around the house without struggling, etc. After having kids, I wanted enough strength to comfortably carry and keep up with them as they grow, and to be confident I could get both of them out of physical danger at the same time. There’s a secondary aesthetic goal to look less like a skeleton for my spouse, though she’s always said I was fine.
Now, I hate weight training, absolutely not what I’d consider a hobby, but it’s the most effective and efficient means to reach those goals that fits in a busy schedule. If I’m going to suffer through it, I absolutely want to maximize the payoff any way I safely can. Smart programming, progressive overload, enough calories, balanced healthy diet, sufficient protein for growth. Protein supplements are an easy way to optimize that last one, especially if I want to eat the same meals as the rest of my family, which might not always meet the threshold.
Sounds reasonable enough.
I'm inherently skeptical of relying on nutrition that doesn't read as "food" to me, which does include protein powders and many protein bars (due to their strikingly artificial taste). This skepticism first activated decades ago when I was a teenager and low-fat items started being introduced. It didn't make sense to me that fat - a macronutrient vital to our health - got taken out of food as it must obviously be substituted with something less vital and more artificial, in order to bring back the original volume and consistency.
Like, why don't people rather eat smaller quantities of the same, unaltered food if they're currently eating too much for their health? Why put something in your body that doesn't seem to belong there but that your system must process anyway, now that it's there? And well, recently I heard that the emulsifiers this process often requires may cause adverse health effects (low-grade inflammation, leaky gut / increased intestinal permeability, disrupting gut microbiota). It just took a few decades for the findings to emerge, and they're not super conclusive yet from what I can tell, but I'm still glad I never got on the low fat bandwagon.
Similarly, I struggle to believe that optimal health outcomes wouldn't be within reach without protein powders. Given how poorly my body used to work before I fixed my eating habits, I'm already so pleased about my current ability to develop muscle that I haven't felt the need to "optimise" further. I fall a little short of the recommended daily amount of protein but it wouldn't be hard to fix that by a minor dietary change. And maybe I'll want to do that once I'm further along in my health journey - we'll see!
I get that some subset of people who are after extreme results, need supplements to achieve them and once achieved, to maintain them. It just doesn't make sense to me that a member of a hunter-gatherer tribe wouldn't have been able to achieve a state of "optimal" health because there were no protein powders available in the savannah, or something. It probably comes down to differing definitions of what optimal means.
ETA, obviously if there just isn't enough protein in the family meals and the situation can't be fixed, then I get the idea that it may be better to take a supplement.
There's nothing inherently "unfood" about protein powder, anymore than flour is not food. The protein from protein powder ultimately just comes from milk. The whey that's leftover from cheese production has almost nothing but protein (the rest of the fats and carbs are in the curds of cheese). That whey is dehydrated and turned into a powder.
It's not some mystical substance synthesized from raw elements. It's just using all of animal products.
I don't think appealing to hunter-gatherer pasts is very worthwhile. For one, there were a lot of things about human physiology as hunter-gatherers that is not optimal. And the goals of our hunter-gatherer ancestors are very different from what anyone would want to do today.
You can certainly reach protein goals with only whole foods, but the reality is that we have lives to live, and protein powder helps reach those when we want to hang out with friends for dinner and get some drinks at the bar later.
Compare protein powder with milk: if protein powder comes from milk, why not just drink that amount of milk? Because that amount of milk would also contain a copious amount of fat and carbs. You'd have to design your entire daily meal around it. What protein powder allows is for you to control the macronutrients independently of each other. When you've had a rich dinner that you know overallocates on fats and carbs, a protein shake is a way to to get the protein up without then adding a bunch more fats and carbs, when you've already more than hit your daily amount for those.
In that sense, protein powder is really more important for the everyman, who wants be fit and able while working a 9-5 job and who likes hanging out with friends and has other obligations, rather than the extreme professional athlete, who can have every meal prepared by a chef to spreadsheet level macronutrient accuracy.
Well sure, and the chemical components in emulsifiers also ultimately come from nature. That doesn't mean they are as good for us as items that haven't been industrially processed to the same extent. Note that I'm not trying to vilify protein powder either - I have no idea what its health effects are (besides those that people take it for). I'm just skeptical of things that don't seem to meet one of my main criteria for food: palatability.
I hear you. I tend to just accept that I didn't hit my macros that day because I do hit them most days. It took some effort in the beginning to learn to eat like this, but it was more or less a one time investment, so much less demanding than doing regular exercise for the rest of your life.
I have a few reasons for lifting as a woman:
Having said all this, I'm working on one kidney so I can't go over 1g/kg of protein. I struggle to eat normal quantities of food and get enough calories, and that was the case before lifting. I don't consume protein powders regularly, but they're helpful as a backup when I struggle to eat enough to get the right amount of protein (and calories in general).
I hear you, I was that kid too!
I also struggled for the longest time to eat healthy, balanced meals. I thought that there was simply something wrong with my body and felt guilty that I couldn't make myself eat 3-5 meals a day (the official recommendation in my country). Finally it clicked when I decided to try keto to help my ADHD symptoms. It removed the excessive glucose fluctuations that cause a hunger response that is unrelated to your actual energy deficit. I was able to actually listen to my body and what it needed. Once I was fat adapted, I didn't feel any need to eat more than one meal a day. No matter what the recs say, this is the right way for me. The food I get to eat tastes great because I need to get the while day's worth of fat, salt, etc. from a single meal. Eating isn't a struggle anymore.
After this change I've been able to exercise productively for the first time, rather than feeling like I'm just damaging my body. Even doing yoga used to be a challenge but it started going well a few years back and now I'm at a point where I've started doing a running program for beginners (one that I've tried twice before and didn't get anywhere). I'm astonished how much better my body works! Once I get this down, I'll probably look into weight training or something similar. Or just start doing a more demanding version of yoga. I'm also going to sign up for street dance classes as soon as my stamina is good enough!
I'm sure that using protein supplements as a backup is better than not eating enough. For me, a few pecan nuts has been enough if I feel at all peckish after exercise but I guess it isn't out of the question to start eating a second, small meal once I ramp things up.
I was 300lbs in my 20s. I'm in my 40s now, and down to 155lbs thanks to a significantly better diet and working out consistently. And as for muscle growth, for me it's mostly about long-term health (physical and mental), but also aesthetics. I've felt truly ashamed of my body for the majority of my life, so I'm trying to fix that by turning it into something I can be proud of... which is something I have actually already partially achieved. I can already comfortably wear a relatively tight t-shirt instead of an oversized one with an overshirt too, since I don't have moobs I feel the need to hide anymore. And, in fact, I'm actually starting to develop decent looking pecs in their place which is awesome and something I've always wanted. And I also really like the feeling of confidence and self-esteem that growing my muscles has given me, so I want to continue doing that as efficiently as I can, which is why I'm trying to stay at optimal protein intake. I don't plan on becoming a professional bodybuilder, since being that big has never appealed to me... but I wouldn't mind eventually looking like one of those people on the cover of fitness magazines. ;)
This is easy for me to understand, thanks for explaining. My gripe with the whole "optimising" idea (I would rather say maximising) is that an end goal that would be unattainable and unmaintainable in a natural environment is by definition not optimal in my book. However, if the point is to attain a body like this, not merely to optimise your overall health, then sure! Humans do all sorts of unnatural things driven by personal interest.
Don't forget to post a link when you land your first cover. :)
What do you mean by "natural environment"? Like, if we were suddenly transported to the year 10000BCE, if something were unattainable there then it's "unnatural" and not "optimal"? That feels like a pretty classic example of the appeal to nature fallacy to me. And given the much shorter life spans and increased levels of overall suffering that all the people who lived totally "natural" lives before the advent of modern medicine and technology, I don't see how that could possibly ever be considered an ideal to strive towards returning to. Going back to that sounds like absolute hell to me, personally... Especially since I would very likely be dead already without the advent of totally "unnatural" modern antibiotics.
But even ignoring that, people have been consuming milk and milk byproducts since at least 5000 BCE. Hippocrates would prescribe whey to his patients back in Ancient Greece, and there is even a nursury ryhme from the 1800s about eating whey. :P And the only difference between that whey and modern whey protein powder is that we've learned to turn it into a powder by spray drying it. Whey is not some artificial serum created in a lab. It's just the protein component of cow's milk that separates from the fats during the cheese making process.
An environment of nutritional ingredients that can be found or grown in nature and turned into palatable dishes by domestic means.
I understand that whey isn't processed to the same extent that low-fat foods are, but it's also probably not something we could conceivably make at home, although I'm too lazy to look up if it would be harder to make than for example sugar or flour. Both of which are already borderline "unnatural" according to my definition, but I do still eat a little bit of bread because I find the best ones very enjoyable to eat. Whey is not something I enjoy at all, which ultimately excludes it from my diet.
Not true at all! Homemade cheese and strained yogurt making is remarkably easy/simple to do and still incredibly common the world over... and both result in whey as a byproduct. You literally just need to pour a milk coagulant like rennet, an acid like lemon/fig juice, or a yogurt bacteria culture, into full-fat cream and it will naturally "curdle", separating into curds and whey. And if you then dump those curds into cheese-cloth and give it a squeeze you get even more whey out of it. And if you have a dehydrator (or an oven that can maintain <130°F) you could even turn that liquid whey into whey powder yourself... which some people actually do.
Fair enough. To each their own. I personally love milk and most milk products (including whey protein) though. :)
I see. Thank you for the info! Sounds quite similar to sugar or flour then.
I eat a large portion of full fat Turkish yoghurt daily with fresh berries/fruit and pecan nuts. I'm sure whatever whey powder based dish you're having is equally delicious. :p
I don’t think this applies to people that are weight training. And I’m mostly vegetarian, so supplementing protein a few times per week helps.
I totally get where you're coming from, and for a layperson maintaining the same weight, you're spot on. However, for athletes, people trying to gain (or, especially, lose weight), and some other categories like vegetarians and the elderly, protein supplementation ranges from "really helpful" to "basically mandatory." If you're interested we can discuss specific recommendations for each group and why, but I don't want to lecture you if you know (or don't care).
Yeah, as someone who really struggles to put on weight, if I don't load my body with protein pre- and post-workout, I literally cannot build strength.
Dietary protein is of course superior, and these supplements are a great example of why that's a reliable heuristic. However, if I had to rely on whole foods for protein, my only options for protein-dense, non-filling foods would be...sardines and tofu? Honestly struggling to come up with alternatives that I could scarf down in a couple minutes and wouldn't interfere with my range of motion.
As it stands, I use whey protein. If that's somehow worse for me than yogurt, I could switch to making yogurt smoothies. But at that point, what's the dang difference except the aesthetic?
Yup. My ADHD meds killed my appetite so it's a big struggle to eat enough to even maintain my weight, let alone get my muscle back. Protein powder and shakes are something I try to hold on to what I've got left
I do know that there are categories of people who should be consuming more protein than the average baseline, but supplementing should be a last resort. The first thing you should do if you really need to increase protein is to increase the amount of protein you get from your food. There are many sources of protein to pick from.
But frankly I think that bringing up athletes in this kind of topic is something of a cop-out. There are very few professional atheletes on the planet compared to the rest of the world.
Apologies for not being clear -- I don't mean professional athletes, I mean anybody who exercises 3x/week or more with any sort of goals, progression, etc.
In my experience, a 120g protein/day diet with an extra protein shake a day usually ends up being much more balanced than trying to get 140g of protein a day from normal food
I haven't read this book (yet), so maybe he talks about it, but my first thought on hearing this is that most cereals in North America are fortified with vitamins and minerals - including iron - which is likely a big contributor to the metallic taste.
I would be interested to see if a non-fortified, salt-free cornflake would still taste metallic.
European here. Food Laws are much stricter, thus nearly all Cornflakes you can buy are without added Vitamins/Micronutrients. I have never in my life experienced a metallic Cornflake, be it sweetend, in Mueslis or plain old flakes without anything added. Feel free to ask more questions :-)
That's an excellent point. I'd be interested as well if you ever find out.
This is likely because most breakfast cereals (and many flour-based products) are fortified with elemental iron (literally, food grade iron filings). Run a few pounds of any generic baking flour across a rare earth magnet and you see it accumulate; a cornflake floating in water will behave kind of like a weak compass needle. If they weren't fortified like that they probably wouldn't taste metallic. You'd still need some sodium for balancing the taste/flavor, but it likely wouldn't need near as much.
I supplemented with protein shakes here and there when I was pregnant, especially during the first and third trimester. I was too nauseated to hold anything down during the first trimester. I used the shakes to quickly drink in order to keep up with the calories. And during the third trimester because I had little physical space left in my stomach coupled with reflux. The recommended solution is to eat smaller meals often, which is hard to do when I was working and was fatigued. So I drank shakes since they were easy to digest. I am still not out of the wood yet since I am breastfeeding.
Fortunately, the powder I am using isn't too bad according to the report. But I can see this being a problem for pregnant and breastfeeding person since fetus/child is sensitive to lead and high lead can cause developmental problem. Pregnant person is already on a restricted diet and moreso if someone is diagnosed with gestational diabetes. So having less option isn't ideal.
I recommend looking at the article to see their charts of which brands are safer or less safe
Yep, for example Dymatize (the brand I use) is safe for up to 4 servings per day. I tend to use a serving a couple times a week so it's really not a big concern at all.
I feel like this article is slightly misleading.
They've sampled pea protein powders exclusively, but the lack of specificity and number of products tested implies that they've covered the protein powder market more generally.This is a huge deal, and I hope people are able to hear this news and stop poisoning themselves ASAP. I just wish they'd specified the form of protein before the last third of the page, or tested other forms on the market as well.
What worries me is Ive seen pea protein as an ingredient in cat food recently
Yeah, reminds me of the reports of contaminants in dog food last year. It's a shame, peas should be an excellent "filler" for pet food. We really need to do better about heavy metals in agriculture.
I edited to headline to be more specific... since I agree that it was pretty misleading as written.
I don't think this is true. They say "All the plant-based powders CR tested relied on pea protein as a main ingredient." But they also tested many non-plant-based powders.
You're right. They explicitly state it:
And later compare:
Thanks for the correction. Something about this article's formatting makes it really hard for me to read it, apparently.
While not a protein powder, it would be interesting to see if this trend extends to food-replacement products such as yfood- I've been working through a few bags of the powder as a way to increase my food intake over the one-ish meals a day that has become a potentially unhealthy habit.
I suspect it unfortunately would given that they already tested Huel Black Edition, which is marketed as a "high-protein complete meal", and it had the second highest concentration of lead (6mcg/serving) out of all the products they tested.
My reasons for using vegan powders was simply because they had in my opinion a more diverse offering of contents, namely fiber. I already blend frozen vegetables into my smoothies but now I’m debating if I should switch away from pea protein.
Thank you for sharing. I did feel like the seemingly infinite brands and drop shipping inclusion must have somehow made the quality suffer in general. I didn’t find and of the brands I use there, however, I literally just purchased some Huel meals (not the one listed) because I’m going to be on the road a lot and I wanted some easy meals on the road. I hope huel will do some serious checking up and warn us, because right now I’m not really sure if I should replan my whole food plan.
If this is your first time with Huel, please be aware that it can cause some people to have bowel experiences... not compatible... with being out on the road. Some adjust after a a bit of time, some have better luck with certain flavors (slightly different artificial sweeteners or amounts, etc.), and some unfortunate souls remain frequently explosive as long as they continue.
omg that's such a good warning :D Do you think that happens to the hot&savory one too? That ones more like an actual meal...
I was planning on having one of those drink meals just before my flight, but now I am reconsidering that plan
Sorry
Imy friend only has experience with the classic powders. Are you looking for something you can bring with you to the airport (or even on the plane), or something you can slam down on the way out the door?I have both - I will go on a 2 week trip around namibia and wanted some easy food that is nutritious enough and vegan. And I have one ready to drink meal that I would have drunk maybe at the airport
If you’ve got time, do a few days trial run at home. You might be fine with it!