Pride Month at Tildes: #5 - Ask almost anything
Ask almost anything
Last week had a focus on understanding. This week has the same focus but with a different angle.
Use this topic to ask almost any question you want to ask, including those you’re worried might come across poorly if brought up elsewhere.
If you feel equipped to answer a question, answer it!
Importantly: this is a safe space in which you can ask questions free from judgment. The vibe we're going for is a classroom, not a battleground.
Discussions like this can often cause intense emotions, but I want us to be especially vigilant in keeping this topic conflict- and aggression-free (see: Thermostat Rule below). If a fight breaks out in a classroom, learning stops, so conflict is counterproductive to our goals here. Disagreements are fine; disses are not. In all of these threads I have said that we should "be kind; be gracious; listen to others; love lots." Let's put that into practice here.
If you feel that a user is deliberately breaking any of the norms for this topic, do not engage them. It is more productive to simply mark their comment as noise and not respond. In the extremely rare case that you believe someone is actively intending to do harm, please mark their comment as malice.
Ground Rules
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Curiosity Rule: The reason that this is "ask almost anything" instead of "ask literally anything" is that your question has to come from a place of genuine curiosity -- you must honestly want to learn more. This is not a place to ask rhetorical questions to make a point or provocative questions to stir the pot.
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Good Faith Rule: assume all users here are acting in good faith and read their words in the best possible light. This goes for both those asking the questions and those answering as well.
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Thermostat Rule: the thermostat is set for this topic, meaning the heat should not rise. If you find that you might say something that would raise the temperature in the topic, please reword it, step away to cool down for a bit, or
ignorethe topic entirely.
Guidelines
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Experience Guideline: if a question is directed at people with specific identities/experiences, the bulk of their answers should come with people aligned with those identities/experiences. For example, a question directed at trans people should be primarily (but not necessarily exclusively) answered by trans people. The reason this is a guideline and not a rule is that there are many ways a rule would cut out valuable discourse -- e.g. people who are still questioning their identities; a cis person who wants to talk about the experiences of their trans partner, etc.
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Multiple Answers Guideline: even if a question has already been answered by someone else, it is okay to give another answer if you have more to add or a different perspective to share.
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Volunteer Guideline: if you are open to answering questions about specific topics, instead of making a top-level comment with a question, make a top level comment stating what you're willing to share about (e.g. "I'm happy to answer questions about ace spectrum terminology"). People can then respond to you directly with their questions.
Full Event Guidelines
Everyone is welcome to participate. This includes allies! You do not need to identify as LGBT in order to join in the topics (especially this one!).
I will use "queer" and "LGBT" interchangeably as umbrella terms to refer to all minority sexualities and gender identities. These are intended to be explicitly inclusive.
Be kind; be gracious; listen to others; love lots.
Schedule
I won't reveal everything upfront, but with each post I will give a teaser for what's next:
June 1st: Introductions and Playlist
June 4th: Who is a historical LGBT advocate that you admire?
June 7th: What positive changes have you seen in your lifetime?
June 10th: What's something you wish more people understood?
June 13th: Ask almost anything
June 16th: (teaser: windows and mirrors)
June 19th:
June 22nd:
June 25th:
June 28th:
If for whatever reason you would not like to see these topics in your feed, add pride month at tildes to your personal tag filters.
Question: Years ago, the word "trans" started to be commonly written online with an asterisk after it (
trans*). I think this was intended to make the term inclusive of more than just binary trans individuals. However, it has since seemed to fall completely out of practice, and I never see it anymore. What happened?One reason might be the asterisk not being pronounceable in real life conversations. You'd fall back to using "trans people", and then you'd find it easier to just write "trans people" as well, since most people have an inner voice (so they talk in their brain, then write down what they said in their brain).
It's probably a similar reason why most people dropped words like Latinx, because it just doesn't work as well in speech as it does in writing.
The explanation I learned is that most people did not treat it like a Boolean search term symbol and saw it instead as closer to an asterisk at the end of a hall of fame record. As some sort of odd exception or something that marks trans folks as abnormal. I only very occasionally see it used now.
But I found a link for more info From Trans Student Educational Resources
That hall of fame interpretation had literally never occurred to me, although I can see how someone might think that, now that you've mentioned it.
I probably learned what * meant from LOAD *,8,1 as a little kidlet, and kept on going!
It seemed really silly to me, because trans is already inclusive of more than just binary trans individuals. I'm agender, nonbinary, and trans. These labels widely overlap each other, but trans is the umbrella one if you want to use it. It's kind of annoying to write too, much like LGBTQIAA2S+ or whatever alphabet soup is the flavor of the month - I think it's similar to how people just kinda settled on queer because its fast to type and umbrella.
I think this started in an era where you still saw "transsexual" and "transvestite" in more common use (and I did see a British man on a show from the past decade that still identified as the latter.) but also "transman" and "transwoman" and I could see why people thought they needed an all inclusive term, even as "trans" was right there.
But I think it's also one of those things where losing a generation to HIV (and the secondary trauma of caretaking to those who died of it) lost some of the oral history. Similar to how bisexual got accused of being trans- or nonbinary-phobic.
Question: My sons friend has come out as non binary to their school friends. Do you have any guidance for me or for me to share with my son?
Background:
The school recently taught about non binary people. My sons friend always appeared as non binary to the point where they were often misgendered, but now has fully identified as non binary to school friends, and has chosen a new name.
I explained about pronouns to my son, and suggested he ask his friend about pronouns. I also suggested that if his non binary friend was OK with it, for my son to gently correct anyone else who used the dead name. A few days later my son shared that his friend had shared their preferred pronouns with someone by correcting them.
My wife and I recently interacted with this friend. In addition to the usual questions we ask of any school friend, we asked a couple of specific questions. My wife inquired about the friends parents, and offered help with that conversation if they wanted. I inquired about if kids at school were being respectful. My sons friend indicated to both of us that everything was fine.
I was about to ask my sons friend about something entirely unrelated, and my sons friend thought I was going to ask why they were non-binary.
I realized that even though everyone has good intentions, my sons friend is probably being inundated with curious questions from everyone.
I was incredibly proud of my son, because whenever my wife or I forgot to use the right pronouns, my son was the first to correct us.
Also, my son ignored my advice, and didn't ask about the pronouns, simply waiting for them to correct another friend to learn about the correct pronouns.
I suspect on the whole, my son is probably choosing the wiser path here, and I need to stop giving advice and stop asking questions but would appreciate any insight.
They are preteen and have not told their parents yet. My son is one of their closer friends.
Make sure you're using their pronouns as frequently as you would when talking about or to anyone else.
For example, "I spoke to my son and he said" --> (if their pronouns are they/them) "I spoke to my son's friend and they said". Don't say "I spoke to my son's friend and the friend said."
This is a mistake I've noticed in some older generation people, where linguistically they aren't as comfortable with "they" so even if they don't misgender ever, they still use the correct pronouns less frequently than they would for someone who's cisgender.
I think it's fine to take some time when you are alone to practice saying sentences out loud because there are a lot of grammatical instincts you need to retrain, and the later in life you do this the harder it is.
Thank you. That is good advice. I will practice the new pronouns.
Practice with Pronouns
This is a useful tool to just sort of practice getting used to seeing and saying various pronouns
Perfect, thanks!
Though some of those are hard
I don't even know what a reflexive or a possessive adjective is, and they throw temporal impermanence into the mix?
Who talks like that outside of a renaissance fair? Honestly!
The last example I'm more bothered by them forgetting to sub out "his" than anything else.
On that initial screen it defines the specific types for you if you select one of the default options.
I think it pulls quotes from some public source. No idea. But no one in the ren faire talks like that either. DMs at a table perhaps.
Quite a lot of them are pulled from Welcome to Nightvale. There's a link further up the page for WTNV, but it leads to a self help book that I've never heard of? Don't know what that's about.
Huh, weird. I've got no idea.
The most important thing (and something I still struggle with sometimes) is to avoid making a bigger deal of their nonbinary identity than it really is.
While at first it's normal (essential even) to ask questions and get to know this side of them, it's easy to fall into the trap of seeing them as your son's nonbinary friend, instead of just your son's friend.
As long as you treat them with the same amount of respect you'd give any other person, any mistakes (like accidental misgenderings, using their dead name instead of their chosen name, etc) will be forgiven and forgotten, so don't stress about it.
Also make sure you (and your son!) are as discreet about their identity as they wish to be, don't tell other people even if you think they're well intentioned, and especially don't tell their parents.
Besides that, be there for them, and let them know they can come to you if they need any kind of help. Being unable to share a part of yourself with your parents sucks, and it means you don't have any place to get parental guidance, especially in your formative years - so be the parental guidance they need, if they need it.
Thanks.
Don't make a huge deal out of it - it's embarrassing and uncomfortable given the generational difference.
Mistakes will happen just a quick "Sorry" and fix it and move on.
Really, nothing major needs doing. Just keep it to yourself, don't accidentally "out" them and continue to treat them like any other human - with dignity and respect. The biggest tip I can give you from an older perspective is that you should adopt a "nothing about how I feel about you has changed" attitude. They are who they are and no matter what you continue to treat them inclusively. No big deal.
Love that you're trying though <3
Thank you.
Honestly, treat them like you'd treat any other kid. Respect their pronouns and their new name, but it seems like you're already doing that. Don't out them to people in their life that might not know without knowing it's okay with them first. Otherwise, they're just a teen going through normal teen stuff, so treat them the way you did before they came out as trans.
Thank you.
The parents at this school are a close knit community, so I suspect someone will accidentally out them to their parents at some point unless they are clear to everyone when to use their new name and when to use their old name.
Isn’t it cool how kids are like that sometimes? Eager to learn, accepting, unburdened by the baggage of age — sometimes they’re much quicker to pick up on things that take us older folks a lot of deliberate practice and unlearning.
A couple of thoughts on relating to the parents:
It can be tough to not out the child to the parents, as that’s going to require comfortable, on the fly, context-dependent pronoun switching. I don’t know that I have any advice there, just that I know it can be challenging to navigate.
Additionally, you’re potentially in a bit of a bind depending on how accepting the parents end up being. If they are hostile to their child’s identity once they become aware of it, it’s possible they will see you as an enemy or potentially even “responsible” for it because you were accepting (which they might see as “coaching” or “encouraging”).
Hopefully that is not the case, but I say it to make you aware of it. As a teacher I’ve been in a few situations where I’ve had to navigate a student outing themselves to me but not their parents, and it’s a very tough line to walk.
Also, support for your son’s friend will go a long way if the parents do end up being hostile. A child knowing that they have trusted adults they can turn to is a huge psychological safety net.
It’s quite likely that your son’s friend’s parents will not be hostile. You noted that they already had a pre-existing nonbinary gender presentation, and that’s usually driven or at least agreed to by parents during that age (the parents are usually the ones buying the clothes, directing the hairdressers, etc.).
If the parents end up being neutral or accepting of their child (let’s hope for accepting!), then it’ll go a long way with them to know that you are too. It can be an explicit conversation you have with them, or it could be as simple as getting the pronouns right for their child and continuing to invite them over for playdates/dinner — anything that sends a recurring welcoming message. When a child comes out, a lot of parents worry about what other parents will think and whether their child will be safe with other adults, so letting them know you’re supportive will probably help ease some of their anxieties.
Thank you for your kind thoughts and for posting this thread, I think you nailed it, lets hope we are both right.
Are there more trans women than trans men? If yes, why?
I have this impression but could never find an answer. I'm not sure if it's just in the places I visit (e.g. tech community) or some cultural reason, like people that were born being called men don't have to deal with all the bullshit women have to deal with, so they feel a bit more courage to transition than the opposite. I also read a long time ago that some species transition to balance the male/female ratio in the society, so I was wondering if that could be the natural cause for humans as well.
I don't think there are reliable statistics on this, and I think your theories are assuming that there are more trans women based on your personal impression. I think it's worth considering that there is a visibility problem involved here, where trans women tend to be hyper-visible and targeted by society due to transmisogyny. Trans men tend to have the opposite problem, where there's a lack of visibility and a tendency to be dismissed as confused tomboys. Both of these ways of society being transphobic towards you suck, but they often suck in different ways. These factors can lead to the perception that there are more trans women regardless of the actual population.
I've run into the same problems. The data is very limited and the people surveyed are from selected points of contact (i.e. people seeking surgery).
There is this survey made by trans people, which has data on a pretty big population. Their last survey was done in 2022
and its early report can be found here.
It had 92 329 respondents from the USA.
The study presented the following numbers:
Thank your for your answer. I wasn't assuming, that's why I wanted to ask. I could never find reliable info about this, Google gives me results that I feel are written by and for transphobic people. I think it's more likely that I'm biased because of the communities I'm part of, as @Adarain said below. And maybe the reasons you mentioned are why it's hard to find reliable statistics about this :/
Oh I absolutely get that -- @Adarain and I actually know each other from pre-Tildes from a community that probably has more trans women than cis women! I think you're similarly likely to come to the opposite impression if you're into spaces that traditionally skew female, like fanfiction or fibercrafts. Our experiences growing up definitely influence how many of us are present in certain communities, same as cis people, and that'll naturally affect who you meet there.
I just think there is also an effect from the way transphobia is weaponized differently against trans women and men in our society atm, especially in the media. I think this has more of an effect on people who don't know trans people personally and thus hear about them mostly through media, though.
I don’t have any data at hand, but every time I’ve heard about any data it seemed to indicate the numbers are similar. I have also noticed the same imbalance, but I think I have a reasonable explanation: The spaces I move in (e.g. reddit and a STEM-focused university) typically have a larger male population. Many trans women of course were raised as if male, and are thus more likely to find themselves in these spaces than someone who went the other direction. I’d be curious to know how it looks in spaces that are generally more female-dominated (e.g. how does it look on tumblr? or in a generally more female-dominated university department?)
A long time ago I (Reddit user) mentioned to my sister (former Tumblr user) how it was weird that there were so many more trans women than trans men, since that had been my experience on Reddit. She said that she had the opposite experience online, and mentioned Tumblr in particular as somewhere the transgender demographic skewed heavily male.
I think what you’ve said is correct, where the trans population of a site will more heavily be the opposite gender of what the general userbase’s gender is.
Here are some stats from Copenhagen's gender clinic: https://i.imgur.com/9GXhncK.png
The table shows new patients by year, however note it isn't about trans men or women, but rather about the amount that wants feminizing treatment (to go on estrogen) and masculinizing treatment (to go on testosterone). And this is also the subset of the trans population that chooses to pursue medical transition. So it's not a fully all encompassing statistic. It's cold hard data though, about people that medically transition in and around Copenhagen - but I think it's fair enough to say that there are ever so slightly more transfeminine people than transmasculine people but it would be interesting to see similar numbers from other countries.
As others have mentioned there aren't reliable statistics on this. Generally speaking the newer stats that we have tend to show more trans women than trans men (binary trans), but that gap is rapidly closing. For stats on trans individuals based on assigned sex at birth, newer stats tend to show more trans afab individuals than trans amab individuals, a reflection of the prevalence and adoption of non-binary identities based on assigned sex. I happen to work in the medical field and my extremely non-scientific and anecdotal take from speaking with clinicians who work with gender is that there are distinct differences between trans masc and trans femme timelines and that general population acceptance has changed the populations of these two at specific times in their lives. That is to say that changes in the last decade with regards to acceptance have lead to trans men generally transitioning socially much earlier than trans women, and that trans women tend to start hormones later in life (both of these are likely a reflection of the relative strength of external social pressures of gender nonconformity based on perceived gender).
I hope what I'm about to ask is allowed. To say this could potentially be inflammatory is an understatement, and I am asking from a genuine place. Or rather... it IS a hypothetical question, but should this ever happen to me, I want to know how to react to it. Keep in mind I'm what would be labeled as a cishet man.
Lesbian, gay, queer... I get all that. It's when we hit transgender that my brain starts to spin in circles and crash. On one hand, I think I get what it is: a person who was assigned at birth as a male or female later in life (well, let's say from teenager or young adult, potentially younger) finds it is more true to themselves to actually be like the opposite gender. Maybe this is simplifying it, but I hope I'm at least on the correct path.
My issue is this: maybe that's not who you ever actually were, but the person who you were before transitioning is the person who I knew. The easy answer is "Well, this is now a new person, and I'm sure you can get to know them just as well- they may even have a lot of similarities!". Unfortunately, it's not that easy for me- especially when the previous person is literally called a deadname- it has an implication that you killed the person I may have known before. At the very least, it feels like after the transition, you replaced the person who I knew before. This is where it really wanders into the hypothetical- if I have a child in the future, and the child eventually transitions... well, I had a strong connection for x amount of years, and now they're gone. This new person is a stranger- a stranger that replaced my beloved child. It IS purely hypothetical, but how should that kind of thing be handled? With friends, it's a bit easier, because friends come and go all the time... so probably some uncomfortable feelings at first, but easier to handle in the long run.
Just as a side note- I actually do have a friend who transitioned, but it was easy to accept because of the time period involved- I knew him previously as a classmate, but then about a decade passed before I met him again, so while a shock, ultimately not that difficult to handle.
Yeah this is a tough question, one that I, personally, have struggled with. First, though, I personally disgagree with you about the meaning of the word "deadname." To me it carries the connotation that the old name itself is what's dead, devalued, no longer in use -- not the person to whom it belonged. I've also heard people argue that the term was coined because trans people would have to know their friends' given names because that's the name their families would bury them other; I can't find a source for this claim other than Twitter, though, and frankly it sounds a little too tragic and romantic to be believable. Happy to be proven wrong.
Etymology aside, I have often wondered: am I now the same person I was five years ago, before I started transitioning? Or have I become someone else entirely?? I think the easy, safe, and assimilationist answer to your question is this: no, thecardguy, you're wrong! I'm not a new person, I've just changed a lot! And it's totally normal for your relationship to someone to change as they evolve and grow. If you're a parent, and your kid goes through puberty, is the connection you built with them when they were an adolescent gone? No, because that history is still there. But you will have to treat them differently, as they grow up, because teens and young adults are different from preteens, and their wants and needs change! And it's just the same with trans people! As someone transitions, they will change a lot. Probably, the way you feel about them will change, too. Pre- and early-transition trans people can be pretty awkward and cringey (I say this with love) as they figure themselves out -- just like a teen going through puberty! And you will have to treat them differently, because a trans woman, say, has different needs than a cis man. But that's just life! And I don't see how transition is different from any other big change in life :)
So, like I said, this is probably the right answer to your question, or at least, the one that feels the least transgressive, but personally I've been getting very dissatisfied with it. I look back on my pre-transition self and I don't recognize him as me. We are so, so different, he and I. Sure, on the high level we have a couple overlapping interests. He liked writing and video games, and so do I. But that's about where the similarities stop. My sense of style is different. I cry all the time now; he never did. I love postmodern art; he thought it was a load of hooey. I'm perfectly happy cooking, cleaning, and being a homemaker; he was ambitious and driven and wanted to be a lawyer. I'm a lesbian now; he was mostly into men. I am almost unbearably earnest; he was a sarcastic asshole. I only talk to two people that I knew pre-transition; every other relationship faded away or died in violent fashion. The way I think is completely different, so much so that I can't even begin to describe the shift in a way that would be comprehensible. And I look back on my pre-transition self, and I think about my transition, and I fail to see any continuity. I don't understand how that lead to this. Honestly, I wonder how real my pre-transition self really was. Was I actually like that? Or did I construct a personality to appeal to societal notions of what a man should be, what I should be? Complicating all this is that I started transitioning when I was 20 -- and most people change a lot in their early-to-mid twenties. I don't have a control group. Would I have changed so dramatically over the past half-decade even if I wasn't trans? Maybe the old me really is dead, and I just gradually replaced him plank by plank, never quite realizing that I had become someone else entirely.
Anyway, card guy, I think this is probably a bad answer to your question. I don't have any advice for you or your hypothetical future child. How the hell should transition be handled? Probably, you should take the first, uncomplicated answer. Treat it like any other change. Be sensitive, and a safe space for your kid or whoever to be vulnerable and a little cringey, and recognize that if your relationship changes, hell, if you drift apart, that's neither of your faults. Sometimes it happens. This is a good approach, and probably you shouldn't let my quarter-life psychodrama dissuade you from it. But I do want to validate your feeling that transition is somehow different than other major life events -- that this isn't necessarily some bigoted assumption that you're bringing to the table. I mean, I can hardly imagine what it would feel like to build a relationship with someone for twenty years, only to discover that that person might never have existed at all, that they might have been an unwittingly constructed facade. And for that scenario, I don't really have any idea how to deal with it.
I don't know a single trans person who has described their transition the way you are describing the change here. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I typically hear words more along the lines of "living my truth" and "accepting who I really am". The person you know and love isn't disappearing. The person in front of you is not a stranger. The person who is transitioning always was exactly who they are today, the difference is they are no longer hiding parts of themselves that the world told them were unacceptable.
Have you ever had a friend who revealed a deep secret to you? Did that change who they are? What about a friend who got into a new hobby? A friend who went through a religious awakening? What about one who went to therapy and resolved or greatly improved a long-standing issue, such as anger or anxiety? Someone who came into a new personality after having a kid or getting a pet? I think all of these are slices of life in which someone changes, often in a way that looks very different in 5 or 10 years but is gradual from the moment, which are much more aligned with what is happening with trans people. There is one significant difference with trans folks, however, and one which is absolutely heartwarming to watch - this change almost always comes with an ever increasing amazing new outlook on life. You get to watch them become so much more happy with their day to day life. They often become more social, they really get into new hobbies and are excited to share them, and they often become more expressive overall.
For some folks, like myself, very little actually changes. In my case changes were almost entirely physical - I never was one to hide the things I liked or restrict the ways I interacted with others. The clothes that I wear, the accessories, and how I carry myself have all changed. But my personality, what I like to do in my free time, and other characteristics have not really changed. Adopting the label and changing my appearance was more of a recognition of how I wanted to be treated by others and especially how I was treated by strangers and people with whom I haven't had a chance to already voice my preferences. It was about my own comfort in spaces I was already finding myself in and to a minor extent spaces in which I wasn't sure I was welcomed.
No matter whether someone is going to change a lot over their transition or not change much at all, any changes that happen over a transition can be likened to any other major changes in someone's life - spiritual awakenings, formations of a family, adoption of a new hobby that becomes a defining characteristic, going to therapy, and so on. You shouldn't think of it like losing a strong connection or that the person is gone, but more that the person you know is able to live life more fully, that they are taking off a mask they put on in public (if you know them well, you likely already know what it looks like behind that mask), or that they have overcome a great obstacle or improved their health through serious work on their struggles. It's not a matter to fear, but something worthy of great celebration.
Having gone through some relationship breakdowns due to exactly this, I think I can maybe give the other perspective.
If you have a friend (or a child) that transitions, it is very, very likely that the life they were living wasn't very great. Experiences vary from kind of uncomfortable to horrific. They may not share this with you for any number of reasons, and it could be that none of them are your fault, but it is their lived reality and one they can't escape from until they start figuring themselves and their gender out.
This is an awkward, potentially even kind of cringe thing to go through for some. I was pretty insufferable to be honest, which is why I can't quite blame some people for deciding I wasn't worth it. They did it in very unkind and sometimes rude ways, and I spent a while ruminating over it. How would I feel? How could I have handled it if I was them?
The more I thought about it, though, the more I started wonder: if I care for a person, but being that person hurts them every single day, does the value they offer me as a friend supercede my desire to see them happy?
Anecdotally from some people I know, this is how a lot of families rationalize a trans person at first, then the usual mental health improvements sort of "justify" it. With friends, that kind of unconditional love is hard to come by, and it makes sense that not every bridge will stay in use. Doesn't mean you have to burn it. Remember that these are still people and even if you don't get along anymore you can do it gracefully.
So other folks may have answers but let me try to give my best take. The person you knew is still there. That relationship is changing because the person is changing, often to allow a more authentic experience. People will absolutely feel different about this, but the trans folks I know, whether binary or nonbinary, don't want to dispose of everything about their past experiences, such as relationships with you.
It's less that Person A is dead and now Person B exists. it's a bit more like the person you knew moved away and now you're catching up with them after that absence. They've changed, including their name and pronouns, they've lived life, they have new experiences and things are different but they're still the person you knew, you're just seeing them through a new, more authentic, lens just like your friend.
Idk if that helps or not
Gays/lesbians of Tildes - do you occasionally wonder about how it would be like to have sex with a person of the opposite gender?
I realized a while back that I might be bisexual, after thinking my whole life that I was gay.
I'm in a happy relationship with a man, and have exclusively dated men - but a small part of me regrets missing out on at least attempting to date women. My partner is very monogamous and made it clear at the start, so zero chance of opening up the relationship (not that I'd want to, he is much more important than a random fantasy of mine and I would never cross him).
I guess a part of it is just curiosity? I usually want to experience all facets of anything that I come across, so the fact that I didn't fully explore my sexuality is bugging me slightly, and I just want to know it all.
However, I realized I'm still not romantically attracted to women, so I'm afraid it might just be my subconscious objectifying women as sexual objects (which straight porn so often does), or a part of me trying to "fit in" and see how it is to be straight (see the term "compulsory heterosexuality" or "comphet" - because of societal pressures, a lot of LGBT people have the impulse of at least trying to be straight, which can lead to them thinking they are bisexual or attracted to the opposite sex in some form).
Either way, it's not something I'll be able to figure out soon, so I wanted to hear about your experiences. And this also applies to people who did eventually try dating the opposite sex.
How did it go?
EDIT: As discussed in the replies, I didn't really think about the implications of the term "gold star gay", so I removed all mentions of it except this one. A person's worth is not contingent on their body count or their partners' genders, and I really shouldn't be using language that implied the opposite. I'm sorry if I bothered people by using that term.
Nope, not at all.
When I was a teenager I was very deep in the closet and wouldn’t even admit being gay to myself. I would try looking at straight porn and it did kind of work for a bit but over time the effect wore off on me. In my sophomore year at high school I had a girlfriend - she asked me out - but I couldn’t be bothered to touch her. A few years later I had the opportunity to be in the (empty) girls locker room of the school and realized that the scent was having an effect on the other two boys who were in there with me, who were saying that it smelled good. To me it smelled repulsive. If I had any lingering curiosity then, that is probably the thing that got rid of it.
I don’t like that term, gold star gay. It does have a lot of toxicity associated with it, but even without that it implies that people who have had straight sex before are somehow lesser, so don’t think that that’s ok. If anything, the experience makes them wiser.
Oh yeah, it just hit me that the term does imply that we're "better" somehow - don't like the idea of that; a person's worth is not contingent on their body count or their partners' genders.
Should I remove and rephrase that part? I wrote the question in a hurry and now I kinda regret it.
You could add an edit that clarifies your thoughts/notes why you didn't intend the icky parts of the term.
Done. I'm sorry if I bothered anyone by using that term.
I envy the pansexuals as a strict gay man (though my gender is a bit fluid there but that's nether here nor there lol).
Love the ability they have to just go with the flow. Wish I had that but strictly dickly here.
Speaking as a gay guy, I can consider it in the abstract in the sense that I can summon up the image of it in my mind should I choose to think about it. The fact that I have absolutely no internal response to that, however, means that it exists in the realm of a neutral hypothetical to me, in the same way I might think “What would my living room look like if I moved the couch over there?”
Suffice it to say my internal response is significantly different should I summon up a mental image that involves a man instead, lol! I do think I’m one of the relatively rare “Kinsey sixes” of the world where there’s a hard line with regards to the intersection of gender expression and my attraction. I’ve talked to plenty of people who are otherwise solidly gay or straight but who have mentioned particular exceptions or outliers for their interests. One of the most frustrating things of my decade in the closet is that I couldn’t muster up any interest in women whatsoever — there were no exceptions. If I’d even had a smidgen of attraction I would have held onto it for dear life as my saving grace. Everything would likely have been a lot easier for me if I’d had that opportunity, but my body and brain simply don’t work that way.
Given that it does seem like there’s an element of attraction for women to you, that would mean our experiences are different, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not gay. Likewise, it could also mean that bisexual is actually a better label. Being bisexual doesn’t necessarily mean that your attractions are evenly distributed across the gender spectrum (bisexual people can definitely still have preferences and “types”). Ultimately, only you can determine what best fits your feelings, with the important caveat that neither label is better or more valuable than the other. The words we use to describe ourselves are descriptive, not a hierarchy or a measure of worth!
Also, independent of your question itself and more just looking at its thrust, I do think it’s common for people in established relationships to wonder about aspects of their romantic and sexual lives that are inaccessible for them in their current configuration. There’s a vast possibility space of options that a relationship fundamentally narrows, and considering that space is both common and normal.
A question for non-binary folk: how do you label your orientation if you're attracted to only one gender? I know you don't have to label your orientation, but I'm just generally curious since the labels heterosexuality and homosexuality are based in the gender binary and based on the person's own sex rather than the target of their attraction.
Often times I find other non-binary folks using the labels that most closely align with their direction of attraction - so they might be a non-binary lesbian or non-binary gay. Sometimes they'll adopt newer words like sapphic or androsexual or sometimes just in discrete words like "I like men".
I also happen to have a rather unique take on this. I happen to possess both of the binary genitals (🍆 and 🐈) and I'm non-binary in a way where people often describe me as possessing both distinctly masculine and feminine traits. I've thought about what that means for people who are attracted to or have sex with me. If you define sexuality by the source of attraction's sex or gender, in both situations I sit in a weird place. I like to joke now that if you like me, that makes you gay (you're no longer in control of your sexuality). I'd never actually discredit anyone's self identification label, but I really can't square typical models of attraction with a person like me, and I find that rather amusing.
There are a variety of lesser-known labels people coin for situations like this, but in general it's something done on a personal basis. There are definitely nonbinary people who identify as lesbians, for instance, but not every nonbinary person who's attracted to women is going to be comfortable with that label. Nonbinary identities also vary a lot, so not every nonbinary person is going to have the same perspective on how their specific gender (or lack thereof) relates to their sexuality.
This is probably way too personal here, but I'm a seemingly straight man in a heterosexual relationship.
In the past decade, I've left religion and been in the process of deconstructing my previous faith, but I find myself continuing to hold biases and "instinctual" reactions when it comes to analyzing my own sexuality.
In short, even from childhood, I've felt that I don't conform to male stereotypes. Though I'm a very masculine presenting adult in my mid-30s, I have noticed less resistance to the idea that I might not be fully straight.
What resources would help as I look to explore the possibility that my straightness and gender expression are perhaps more conditioned than core to who I am?
She/He/They/Me is a book done in sort of choose your own adventure style way, where you can think about gender and yourself in different forms.
As someone who poked my gender with a stick a lot before deciding that it's lack of a response meant I'm somewhere on the demi-gender to agender scale but that woman feels fine for me, despite not feeling feminine almost ever, it's a process of re-assessing basically everything to do with gender identity and gender roles, etc. over a long period of time. But I think everyone would benefit from doing it, because I have found that it really creates an active understanding of yourself rather than the passive compliance with and assumption of societal roles. Not that it's impossible to know yourself without that journey, but a lot us just sit there letting our gender fill the box it's in, not realizing that if removed from that box it would take different shapes.
I'll check it out, thanks!
Your last sentence seems to resonate a lot with me, and it puts into words a feeling I've had for a while. I'm not certain what that outcome may be yet, but I feel like I'm increasingly curious about it.
Yeah for sure, for myself I'm perfectly happy being squished in the box most of the time but I recognize that my gender's shape is not quite box shaped and is more of an amorphous blob