30
votes
In Norway, children walk to school aged six, or even travel across the country. Why do these kids have so much independence, while other countries are so risk-averse?
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- Title
- How to be a Norwegian parent: let your kids roam free, stay home alone, have fun - and fail
- Authors
- Andy Welch
- Published
- Jul 11 2024
- Word count
- 2322 words
Whereas trust seemed to have been at an all time low in US/Canada between parents and children, during the 80s, due to moral panic like satanic ritual abuse panic. Paired with neglect and understimulation. From latchkey kids wiki:
Some US kids in the 80s were basically put in solitary confinement: don't go outside because stranger danger, don't watch tv or play games and don't read (80s Harry Potter Moral Panic equivalent) because Satan, don't whittle or use the stove.......just sit and do nothing.
That's another thing about US/Canadian parenting. So you don't like them teaching your preschooler how to use a knife. Are you gonna teach them? No. Just say no to everything and then be surprised when the kid is 25 and don't know how to do anything.
Aside:
I mean, I love that they can but is this one really something to brag about? "Hi, how you holding up? That Singles Apartment Manager still bothering you? Want me to buy you some ice cream on my way over?" Maybe I'm reading too much into this one.
It’s difficult to understand the mental workings at play when parents raise their children this way. Do they expect skills and various bits of knowledge to just… spontaneously materialize in the child’s mind at some age after the parent deems them appropriate but before the kid needs them? Is it a simple case of, “I’ll teach them when the time comes,” but then they forget or what?
I think there's plenty of "this can wait until tomorrow" reasoning, a lack of a personal constitution about what it means to live as a person in the world, and not enough unstructured free time to spend with kids between all of the commuting, scheduled activities and everything else parents do.
I think there are many factors that make it hard to generalize. In the US, there is a lot of variability on this between rural and urban areas, and things like walkability and climate play a role. This is how I grew up in the rural US, and how I raised my kids before we moved to an urban area.
When you live in a place that is walkable, low crime, and the climate isn't actually life threatening, you get kids who go places independently at younger ages. When you are in higher crime cities, with poor walkability, and deadly heat like Phoenix, you get kids who stay inside. Or even heat that is miserable if not acutely deadly.
I'm sure there are lots of other factors, such as societal views that have changed and are self reinforcing. But these environmental factors sure do a lot to change the equation.
This mirrors my experience.
I spent part of my early childhood in Appalachia (east Tennessee), and I went everywhere alone on foot starting when I was four years old. There were gaggles of other kids doing it as well. There was also no clear delineation between private property and public property — hardly anyone had a fenced yard — and we would romp right people's backyards and think of ourselves as being out in the woods. This probably made it much easier for the myriad stay-at-home parents to keep an eye on us. The general rule every kid had to abide by, as I recall, was to be home (not necessarily our own home) by supper so we could be fed.
When my family moved to a low-income neighborhood of Atlanta when I was seven, I continued my policy of romping around everywhere — but there were no other kids to romp with, the houses were empty during the day (everyone was at work) or sometimes abandoned so there was no one to keep an eye, and my parents needed me to check in with them more frequently, so I couldn't go too far (I usually stayed within a 1-2 miles' walk). Still, it was a delightful experience that I look back on very fondly — up until I started developing adult female features, because that's when things got scary*. Mobile phones did exist at this time, but they were still rare and unaffordable for my family, so I stopped venturing out alone, which was very sad for me.
* Catcalls became a frequent thing at this time, but that is not I am referring to. I experienced several incidents of being stalked (always by some non-local who was clearly slumming it — they were always very obviously from somewhere much more affluent based on their dress, car, etc. and stood out like a sore thumb). In the most egregious case, a female friend and I were walking down my street to my house when a way-too-respectably-dressed man and woman in a way-too-expensive-car pulled up alongside us, threatened us with a gun, and told us to get into their car. (We both bolted into the woods instead and lived to tell the tale.)
I have since moved to Australia but, because of these experiences, it took me a while to overcome my fear of white people with nice clothes and nice cars. I have never had any experience of the sort here (not even a single catcall), so I did get over it eventually, and now I really feel like a part of my local Australian community — but whenever I'm back home visiting family, I kind of catch my breath a bit when I see someone who doesn't look like they "belong" according to what the neighborhood was like when I was a child. Unfortunately, that is the norm now; it has become heavily gentrified since I moved overseas. The local community I grew up with has been completely scattered to the four winds and the woods that likely saved my life have been obliterated, and I have this constant low level on-edge feeling there as if I'm being stalked and have nowhere to hide.
A while back, Netflix released a collection of subtitled episodes of a long-running Nippon TV program はじめてのおつかい, localized as "Old Enough!" It's a program where a camera crew secretly follows a kid who is given the task of running their first out-of-the-house errand. Watching this show has legitimately made me cry because seeing how these kids are being raised and being treated by society is so much better than what we do here in the US, that I honestly think that we have a social sickness of some sort.
Kids on this program are extremely young. All of them are 5 years old or younger, and I think the youngest I saw was 2. I watch these kids go to the store by themselves, rarely ever getting lost on their way, and when they have problems the adults around them actually go up to them and help them instead of just ignoring them and hoping that they go away like we do here. They don't even wait until they're so distressed they're crying: they see a kid is wandering aimlessly and they take action. And there's a good chance they actually know who they are, too! When they get to their destination, the people they deal with are all extremely sweet and patient with them.
One episode that resonated with me is an episode with an extremely young kid who I think was only 3 years old, trying to navigate around a small shopping arcade but getting lost. The shop owners were coming out the front of their stores and actually cheered for the kid, wishing them luck. They got lost a lot, but the shop owners knew them and so pointed them in the right direction. It was legitimately one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. It was such a mundane altruism, but it was incredibly meaningful and in such great volume it was overwhelming.
A lot of my peers when I was a child could be described as "lost children" in one way or another. There were pregnant pre-teens, homeless kids, kids with abusive parents, drug addicts, and others of simelar ilk. And right now there's a lot of stuff going on social media about drinking from a hose because kids were left out for the day and not allowed home. It seems like we just think so poorly of children here. We don't care enough about them because they're always someone else's problem. We don't give them enough trust to give them the autonomy they need to grow up into a good adult. We are the only country in the world where we regularly see mass shooters come to schools. What the fuck is wrong with us?
And I feel like a total hypocrite saying all of this because I'm so ill equipped to be the change I want to see. I'm a fat balding gay man, so the moment I have any interactions with a child I'm going to get nearby parents calling me a groomer and some awkward conversations with a police officer itching to see if I'm a pedophile. But even that is a hypothetical; the areas around me are so hostile to children I would have to literally seek them out to find one. And if I did run into a kid, I have so little experience interacting with them I wouldn't know what to do.
I have A LOT to say on this, but it's various convoluted processes and tangents, so I'm going to try to keep my thoughts short and to the point.
It's a testament to the MASSIVE culture differences between Japan and America. Living in Japan myself, I'm well-acquainted with the culture. Not only is Japan a collectivist society (everyone works together for the greater good... and everyone must act the same as well), but it's a smaller country in terms of literal land area. Plus, Japan's population has been on a steady decline for YEARS- so children are seen as precious. But more importantly, up to about the age of 10, maybe all the way through elementary school, children get a TON of leeway in what they can do. Mostly because once they get into teenage years... the dark side of Japanese discipline then rears its ugly head. It's not as bad as it used to be fortunately... but basically, all the freedom they get as children disappears quickly, so hence why I think kids in Japan get a ton of freedom early on.
Meanwhile, in America... I often wonder if there are drawbacks to having such a diverse population. It has turned America into a "every man/woman/child/dog/etc. out for themselves" situation- one of these days I'm going to make a topic about my further thoughts on this. But I digress. More importantly though... America is also a HUGE country. You have HUGE distances between many rural places, and so people use vehicles a ton. Japan certainly also uses vehicles... but you're also just as likely to see kids- heck, even adults- walking places or riding bicycles. This is something you won't see so much in America, because of how many vehicles are on the road.
I was shopping the same way at about 5. Attended school daily to school via public transit at about 6.5. With unmedicated ADHD. This was in central Europe.
My parents did not own a car a did not have enough time to babysit me all the way to school. There was a single bus to take so they went with me for couple months and then I started to attend alone. This was in capital.
Shopping was done at countryside during my summer stays with grandmother. The neighborhood was quiet and easily navigated with no major roads to cross.
I still remember the first time I was allowed to cross one of the major roads myself. My route to school involved crossing the street, but there was an underpass.
The Old Enough episodes normally happen in very walkable places. I think that's the key element. If the city is pedestrian friendly, it's pretty safe to leave the kids figure things out on their own.
Also, I imagine shopkeepers outside the super busy malls actually enjoy helping a small kid shop anywhere. It's a nice change to their pace.
Similar happens in Switzerland from what my friend says. He sees 5 year olds taking public transit every day. Supposedly it's against the law to take your children to school (it's also against the law to pee standing up after 10pm but that's a separate thing)
Peeing standing up is not against the law. Making excessive noise after 10pm is, but you can't be punished for peeing standing up. You may get a passive aggressive note on your door by a overzealous neighbour.
But yeah you see kids here walking to kindergarten or school from 4 or 5, especially in villages. In bigger cities, there's usually a parent or two accompanying a group of children.
Quiet time is 22:00 to 06:00, Sundays and public holiday. During that time, you should be mindful of your noise production and refrain doing any activities that should produce excessive noise, including playing music, mowing the lawn, drilling holes in the wall, etc.
But if you live in a place with good isolation you can learn to play violin while having a 3D printer and your clothes dryer running at the same time without any problem.
There's this thing called "pedibus" where an accompanying adult will create a "bus line" that will walk the kids to and from school. The map shows that it's more popular in the French part than in the German part. The children will also got a high-visibility ...vest? tabard ? harness? this thing for free.
That's called pedibus
It’s definitely not against the law to take children to school, but it may well be against school regulations. At my primary school, school rules said that you had to walk to school (unless unable to eg due to injury or disability of course). The few kids who lived at the extreme ends of the village (~1km from school) could take a bike too, but there weren’t enough bike stands for everyone, so the rest had to walk. If parents drove their kids that would be brought up in discussion and be discouraged.
???? Because men don't pee the same after 10? Can you elaborate on this one a wee bit more? :)
The Swiss are intense about their noise laws. In Germany you might get a noise complaint from a neighbor if you run your washing machine or dishwasher at night, but because Switzerland is Germany on steroids even the sound of peeing standing up is enough to get an angry letter from your neighbors. Whether it's true or not, it fits my understanding of their culture lol.
Old comic but, man, that Ukraine ball ;_;
yeah that one hits harder now than it probably did back when they drew it...
Peeing standing makes sound when it hits the water, and the Swiss love their quiet.
Edit: you have to pee sitting down.
I'm wondering if it's just like a sanitation thing? Like "these dang drunk guys are missing the urinal/toilet completely! That's it, no more peeing standing up after 10pm."
It must be some kind of "missing the mark" type thing, methinks. But how would they enforce it? And is it public toilets only or even at home?
Huh, this one might be an urban legend:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/jul/12/facebook-posts/dont-believe-this-flushing-falsehood-people-in-swi/
I can't be the only one that has uncontrollable bladder issues. Let alone gas. So if they have issues with one, are they ok with the other? Sitting and passing gas produces a rumble that can be heard, just saying. Choices have consequences. I would be in hot water every day, ppl would be staring at me (German we see you!) and pointing at me; there he goes - the pee and gas terrorist!
I have some friends who lived in Norway for a few years, and when they came back, one of their comments was that the culture is very (intentionally) normalized. It was a while ago, but I feel like the example was that everyone eats the same thing for breakfast or something like that.
So of course, if everyone thinks this kind of free range parenting is normal and the systems are all set up to support it (plus you have good public transportation to boot), I'm sure it's much easier to raise one's kids this way. I imagine if something goes wrong, it's not seen as a parenting failure, but a system failure. I wonder if people who don't let their kids roam are considered abberant. Imagine having social services called on you because you didnt turn your child loose to roam the neighborhood.
I feel like in America, we've had so many systems eroded to almost nothing that parents are left to shoulder the responsibility with effectively no support.
Perhaps it should not be surprising that this gives rise to the helicopter/lawnmower parent – in the absence of a supportive system, if you can't fix the system, all you can do is make enough noise to try to improve your own kid's experience. The fact that it is at the expense of the function of the overall system doesn't matter because it fits right in with the entitlement and privilege that is rampant in out society. Sadly, I think the kids produced by this are not really benefiting from it in the long run, so it all just feels like a waste.
I have written about my positive experiences with my daughter in Montessori schools. Obviously it's not exactly the same, but the value of independence, self actualization, kindness, and peace might be the best you can do if you are in America and can afford it. If you think you can't, you should ask, because many of these schools have scholarships and tuition assistance programs.
The story above this is about several US grocery stores with ammo vending machines. And we wonder why kids don't feel as safe in the US?
Is that really the case or hyperbole? I am not familiar with Polish law.
Not OP, but here's an article on child services vs children around 10 taking the bus alone, in Canada.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/5-children-ride-bus-alone-debate-vancouver-adrian-crook-free-range-helicopter-parenting-1.4280001
Spoilers: "it depends", there are no hard and fast rules. One dad got investigated and cleared, and another mom didn't get investigated at all.
Another link for Canada
Summary: not many provinces actually have a legal age but a few have 12 as the age a child can stay home alone.
In @chocobean 's link its says
One of the links within that article caused a big stir a few years ago, it was about an 8 year old that was left home alone from 3pm to 5pm while his mother was at work and the judge, again, said that 10 was the magic age. Like the one where the kids were taking a bus, it involves divorced parents and a disagreement on how to parent and that's probably the only reason it was brought to child welfare services.