Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone". Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't...
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't interested in them.
Alternatively, if they are cool being a friend to that person, without hoping for something more, then they aren't in a friend zone. They chose to be friends with a person.
The whole thing is about men with low confidence hoping to dodge rejection by not asking women shortly after meeting them. They hope by being friends first they can ease into dating and avoid rejection. I'm sure that happens in a minority of cases.
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned" But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but...
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned"
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
If they say yes then good we move our relationship forward.
Anything other than a yes needs to be taken as a NO. Things like "I don't want a relationship right now" is a no, they are just being kind. You then need to decide if you are comfortable (and able) to stay friends and respect the boundaries that are put up, sometimes the best thing is to walk away and that is ok. The most important thing is you don't ask again or keep pestering, they know you like them, if they change their mind they can ask you out but don't expect that to happen.
(And for the record all the examples from the Tumblr post are exactly what you don't do, and they are all bad people)
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a...
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a proposition myself, but I personally think propositioning a stranger is just a much less common thing to do outside of, like, dating apps and speed dating. I wouldn't have enough interest to overcome the social boundary of letting strangers alone without getting to know them first.
Rejection was painful and all, it always is, but every time I revealed to a friend I'd developed the crush on them, my biggest fear was not rejection but rather that they'd decide to end the friendship in response. Fortunately, this never happened, so I must've done something right.
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their...
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their compatibility with you for intimacy at all times. It's OKAY to be just friends with people.
That's where I think people who complain about the friend zone struggle. They see friendship as a required stepping stone to an intimate relationship. They treat it like a dating sim where the end result if you work hard enough and say the right things and bring the right gifts, then you are owed an intimate relationship and that's just not the right way of doing it.
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always...
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always been awkward, and I don't like being the first to share my feelings in person, and I've sat around with crushes on guys for ages. it was miserable.
But I never said "he's a motherfucking asshole" for not dating me. Or slapped him. Or felt entitled to his time (or did the weird shit with sabotaging the relationships he got in)
Same with women, though I wasn't a teenager when I figured that shit out so I was slightly better about it.
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked. It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to...
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked.
It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to them.
I just assume some people learn this shit from TV, the internet, or their parents. I just cant imagine spontaneously thinking of all that wild shit.
Also, it might be related to how like the only emotions guys are allowed to show are happy and angry. A guy cant just express his feelings of loss upon being rejected, he must show anger.
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage...
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage of someone who they're attracted to, who wants to keep their hope alive so they can benefit from the "friendship"
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people...
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people who report being friendzoned often believe that they're being strung along retroactively. It happens, but probably not to level that the "friendzoned" person thinks that it does. It's sort of an example of when intent really does matter - because it's inherent to the ... crime is not the right word here, but you know what I mean.
It seems like a lot of friendzoned folks feel strung along, but is that accurate or is it interfering with their assessment of their own responsibility? I don't know that I can say in the aggregate.
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very...
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very occasionally hold hands, and even short vacations with the two of them. Basically do every emotional cheating date thing shy of kisses and sex. But they're friends because the leader is already in a relationship so don't you dare confess feelings and ruin this beautiful and pure "friendship". But the official relationship is always on the rocks and the friend hears all about it. When I saw it it was pretty obviously leading someone on.
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing...
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing I file into "friendzone" as that usually implies their person of interest isn't interested in them. But I see what you're talking about.
This feels more like when they promise they're leaving their partner eventually and you're really important, we swear, but we can't marry yet, because of the kids! (or whatever)
Either way it definitely falls in to the "if you stick around here you're gonna be miserable" box.
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and...
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and chaste and wonderful friendship, no shadow of cheating going on here. The mark is then lulled into a false sense of "well I'm glad my years ago confession didn't ruin our current perfectly normal and pure and chaste friendship". How much the mark was lying to themselves vs they were young and thought they had honestly moved on is opaque to me, the bystander friend.
It was fairly commonly occurring in my extended circles, unfortunately
Eg, I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my...
Eg,
I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now
I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my school / sports / career / family, so let's be friends
I'm terrified of my super awful partner whom I don't love but they have my culture group / parents / kids / job / money / whatever, so we have to appear to be friends for now
I'm still too freshly separated from my ex, and I don't want people to talk badly of you (me) so let's hang on to the title of friends for now
how can I bear to split my soul / go back on my vows / whatever that prevents me from having my cake and eat it too
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person...
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person manipulates them by agreeing to a few dates, at some point the person will try to get physical, get rebuffed, and know that their interest isn't returned. It is then up to them to hang around, be friends, be a patsy, or make a diplomatic exit.
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs. Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs.
Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel. But I would also maybe extend that rule to...
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel.
But I would also maybe extend that rule to friendship. Nobody owes you a friendship. If for any reason someone decides that dont want to be your friend anymore, that ought to be allowed too. The setup of being friends is what would be most convenient for you, and the setup of dating would be most convenient for them, but neither of you are owed that.
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea. Youre not really asking to have sex, youre just trying to get some kind of validation that you are deserving of this thing called love thats supposed to be so important in life. You dont really get what attraction or infatuation means because you dont have any experience with it yet. So if you get rejected, you dont really understand how fickle love can be, and it feels like a deeply personal rejection.
I mean what even is dating when you are a child? Going to the movies and studying together? Stuff you were maybe already doing already as friends? Its pretty arbitrary of a division outside of a label. So if you get rejected that can be very confusing, especially coming from someone who ostensibly already likes you well enough, but just doesn't like you in that kind of way.
None of that is to say that you, as the object of someone elses affection, should just date that person in order to spare their feelings. But I do think there is something off about the idea that someone should be obligated to bury their own feelings just so that the other person doesnt have to deal with the complexities of those feelings.
Sometimes it sucks that you and another person have different ideals or priorities, but thats just the risk of engaging in interpersonal relationships. Sometimes they are going to be something more or less than what would be most convenient for your needs.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger: The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?"...
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger:
The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?" This seems to be the result of societal expectations that boys and girls who get along must be romantically interested, rather than any strong feelings on his part.
Her first grade friends who fight over her are almost definitely also doing it due to societal expectations that have been instilled in them. First graders don't indeoendently come up with not only romantic relationships but possessive ones a priori.
The second grade example is even more obvious, because the boy never even expressed romantic interest, but merely leaves the friendship because peers are teasing him about the prospect. The idea that a boy and girl cannot be friends but MUST be romantic interests is directly what killed this friendship
Once they get older, the rationales of the boys in question become more genuinely a reflection of their romantic attraction for OP. But this societal conditioning starts way earlier, and it doesn't go away when the feelings become real. If boys and girls cannot be friends without romantic attraction involved, then maintaining the friendship after being rejected in order to earn a romantic relationship seems much more rational. This is clearly what the boy when she was 11 did -- she's not acting entitled to his friendship here. He's choosing to bury his feelings and doesn't attempt to end the friendship. OP cannot be blamed that he nurtured his entitlement and bottled up his rage until he slapped her and called her a dumb cunt.
The only guy in the whole story who actually ends the friendship in response to being rejected is the last one, the one OP met her junior year. And in isolation, that's a healthy thing to do. But he only does this aftrr hundreds of rejections and repeated attempts to escalate even though it made her uncomfortable:
but he'd put his arms around me on the couch, and no matter how many times i told him i was uncomfortable, he'd still come over every day and do it.
This essay is not about how guys who get rejected by girls should stay their friends despite their feelings. Rather, it's about how the expectation that every male/female relationship be a romantic (and later sexual) one poisons every one of these friendships from even the youngest age. How painful it can be when the myth that men and women can't be friends is the very thing that destroys your friendships, over and over, throughout your life, and you can't do anything but watch a friendship you've nurtured wither on the altar of romance.
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend...
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend sucks too, and people who find out that their friend didn't actually want to be friends are also experiencing that loss.
I do maintain that basically all youth relationships are inherently abusive because we're all shit at it. But acknowledging that means saying this behavior is in fact abusive/harmful/etc.
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent...
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent matters a lot, as does extending grace for everyone involved for having to get the emotional equivalent of scraped knees while learning how to ride a bike.
Relationships, even young ones, can provide joy, respite, and growth. I still (vividly!) remember how wonderful the hug of my first girlfriend felt. Her smile lifted my spirits, and her hair smelled of strawberries and hope. That we were both idiots with knowing how to communicate takes nothing away from this! In fact, I find it all the more impressive that we both were able to feel this way, even through the emotional mud.
Did we do and say things that hurt each other? Yes. Did we learn how to be better, because being hurt/hurting sucks, and we didn't like that? Yes. Was it worth it in the end, even though we eventually broke up? Yes! And I can confidently say she helped make me a better partner, and I know she feels the same, because we talked about it years later as adults. Neither of us would have been able to get to where we are now without going through the often painful learning process, but I just can't bring myself to see that as a negative. It was in pursuit of real connection.
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might...
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might look back on a situation, but in the moment, I think the impact is more important. It's sort of like how when someone says something racist - intent can matter, and so does frequency, and whether they change/apologize/etc- but the thing they said is still racist.
I'm not condemning young relationships, I don't think the vast majority of teens are truly capable of not doing abusive things. That doesn't mean they only do abusive things. And I agree it's all part of learning. But I think it's worth pointing out when they're doing abusive things so they can learn. Whether the language is abusive or toxic or whatever makes people feel better about using it.
(This is based only off my personal experiences as a teen and professional experience working with college students for about 8 years, not research.)
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall...
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall they're less than good, instead of being mostly great with some jagged bones in them.
Certainly not abusive, as there normally isnt and shouldn't have a weird power dynamic involved. Maybe a maturity differential? There can be abusive young love, if one person is much more knowledgeable or more skillfully manipulative than the other, but not inherently I think.
An analogy I used back then was that we're both shark and life preservers for each other.
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the...
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the whole relationship as trash. I don't think abuse can only happen with a power differential (but also, those differentials can look very different among teens than among adults). Most people are going to hurt each other a lot in young relationships. Whether that makes any individual relationship "good" or "bad" isn't something I'm trying to speak on.
Even in your example, I'd argue a partner who's a metaphorical "shark" is doing abusive or harmful things. Even if it is only because bumping into you with that rough skin can cut. I don't think the normalacy is relevant, lots of relationships can be abusive and be the norm in any particular culture. But my point is I'm not condemning all young love or anything, just acknowledging that there's a lot of hurting going around as you do things for the first time(s), and are developmentally still working on some of those higher brain functions and decision making skills.
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree It's a tough time! Thank goodness I made it!
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore. And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since...
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore.
And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since reformed and think back upon that day with great shame.
I suspect that there was some toxic masculinity involved in the negative cases. A girl with an unrequited love is viewed as a pining romantic: neutral to positive. A boy with an unrequited love is a loser, a lesser than, a beta, a cuck, worthless and undeserving and a target for violence and derision. A girl rejected feels hurt, but a boy rejected feels hurt and the danger of losing social standing and worth in the Patriarchy. The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
With regards to friend zones, it goes both ways. There are innocent boys and girls blindsided by sudden loss of friendship who bear it with a quiet, suffering grace. And then there are not so innocent boys and girls who use friendship status to control, manipulate, guilt, glean resources, improve standing, sabotage relationships and dangle hope for selfish vanities. I think folks outgrow it for the most part and become better friends and better partners.
Absolutely spot-on imo. As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
Absolutely spot-on imo.
As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout. I hope parents of today talk to their...
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout.
I hope parents of today talk to their kids early and often about kindness and friendship, and gently about how sometimes it can go wrong. Be kind, but also know that we're not all ready to be kind all the time already.....my parents probably erred too much on the side of anxiety and preached doom about all my childhood friendships with guys. But they weren't totally wrong to talk about when things can still go wrong despite 100% clarity and kindness from my side.
Do you have some thoughts about the unequally common portion of your comment response? I'd love to hear your experiences with young love and friends zoning
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained...
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained super close friends with no problems thereafter in both cases. I didn't even really pine by any definition. I valued our existing friendship far more than any romantic potential, and my confessions more or less affected nothing.
One of these friends did come out as gay in the process of rejecting me, which was the straw that eventually broke the camel's back for my evangelical faith, but that was more or less unrelated to any romantic feelings I had. Being scared he'd suffer in Hell for eternity overwhelmed any sense of missing out I had personally. My support for him thereafter wasn't related to any lingering romance, but rather my strong platonic love for him as a friend.
As for the inequality, I just think that a substantial fraction of reports of the latter type are coming from perpetrators of the former type.
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back. One sexually harassed me;...
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back.
One sexually harassed me;
detailsoffered me a soda if she could sit on my lap, grabbed my ass in a hug and very intentionally walked in on me changing. One probably did something(s) to keep other people away from me; I don't have concrete proof, but enough hints and weird things to be pretty certain. And 2 that were emotional wrecks that forced me into a pseudo-therapist role with no mutual support from them; they were also uncomfortably possessive for a friendship.
On a positive note, I had one woman who was perfectly nice and respectful. Nothing came of it, but it is nice to have some point of reference for decent treatment. Same with the one gay guy that showed any interest in me.
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't interested in them.
Alternatively, if they are cool being a friend to that person, without hoping for something more, then they aren't in a friend zone. They chose to be friends with a person.
The whole thing is about men with low confidence hoping to dodge rejection by not asking women shortly after meeting them. They hope by being friends first they can ease into dating and avoid rejection. I'm sure that happens in a minority of cases.
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned"
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
If they say yes then good we move our relationship forward.
Anything other than a yes needs to be taken as a NO. Things like "I don't want a relationship right now" is a no, they are just being kind. You then need to decide if you are comfortable (and able) to stay friends and respect the boundaries that are put up, sometimes the best thing is to walk away and that is ok. The most important thing is you don't ask again or keep pestering, they know you like them, if they change their mind they can ask you out but don't expect that to happen.
(And for the record all the examples from the Tumblr post are exactly what you don't do, and they are all bad people)
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a proposition myself, but I personally think propositioning a stranger is just a much less common thing to do outside of, like, dating apps and speed dating. I wouldn't have enough interest to overcome the social boundary of letting strangers alone without getting to know them first.
Rejection was painful and all, it always is, but every time I revealed to a friend I'd developed the crush on them, my biggest fear was not rejection but rather that they'd decide to end the friendship in response. Fortunately, this never happened, so I must've done something right.
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their compatibility with you for intimacy at all times. It's OKAY to be just friends with people.
That's where I think people who complain about the friend zone struggle. They see friendship as a required stepping stone to an intimate relationship. They treat it like a dating sim where the end result if you work hard enough and say the right things and bring the right gifts, then you are owed an intimate relationship and that's just not the right way of doing it.
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always been awkward, and I don't like being the first to share my feelings in person, and I've sat around with crushes on guys for ages. it was miserable.
But I never said "he's a motherfucking asshole" for not dating me. Or slapped him. Or felt entitled to his time (or did the weird shit with sabotaging the relationships he got in)
Same with women, though I wasn't a teenager when I figured that shit out so I was slightly better about it.
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked.
It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to them.
I just assume some people learn this shit from TV, the internet, or their parents. I just cant imagine spontaneously thinking of all that wild shit.
Also, it might be related to how like the only emotions guys are allowed to show are happy and angry. A guy cant just express his feelings of loss upon being rejected, he must show anger.
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage of someone who they're attracted to, who wants to keep their hope alive so they can benefit from the "friendship"
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people who report being friendzoned often believe that they're being strung along retroactively. It happens, but probably not to level that the "friendzoned" person thinks that it does. It's sort of an example of when intent really does matter - because it's inherent to the ... crime is not the right word here, but you know what I mean.
It seems like a lot of friendzoned folks feel strung along, but is that accurate or is it interfering with their assessment of their own responsibility? I don't know that I can say in the aggregate.
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very occasionally hold hands, and even short vacations with the two of them. Basically do every emotional cheating date thing shy of kisses and sex. But they're friends because the leader is already in a relationship so don't you dare confess feelings and ruin this beautiful and pure "friendship". But the official relationship is always on the rocks and the friend hears all about it. When I saw it it was pretty obviously leading someone on.
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing I file into "friendzone" as that usually implies their person of interest isn't interested in them. But I see what you're talking about.
This feels more like when they promise they're leaving their partner eventually and you're really important, we swear, but we can't marry yet, because of the kids! (or whatever)
Either way it definitely falls in to the "if you stick around here you're gonna be miserable" box.
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and chaste and wonderful friendship, no shadow of cheating going on here. The mark is then lulled into a false sense of "well I'm glad my years ago confession didn't ruin our current perfectly normal and pure and chaste friendship". How much the mark was lying to themselves vs they were young and thought they had honestly moved on is opaque to me, the bystander friend.
It was fairly commonly occurring in my extended circles, unfortunately
Yeah that's definitely a shit experience. Not one I'd usually have thought of to put in this category, so I appreciate the perspective
Eg,
I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now
I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my school / sports / career / family, so let's be friends
I'm terrified of my super awful partner whom I don't love but they have my culture group / parents / kids / job / money / whatever, so we have to appear to be friends for now
I'm still too freshly separated from my ex, and I don't want people to talk badly of you (me) so let's hang on to the title of friends for now
how can I bear to split my soul / go back on my vows / whatever that prevents me from having my cake and eat it too
Even works for senior retired people, sadly.
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person manipulates them by agreeing to a few dates, at some point the person will try to get physical, get rebuffed, and know that their interest isn't returned. It is then up to them to hang around, be friends, be a patsy, or make a diplomatic exit.
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs.
Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel.
But I would also maybe extend that rule to friendship. Nobody owes you a friendship. If for any reason someone decides that dont want to be your friend anymore, that ought to be allowed too. The setup of being friends is what would be most convenient for you, and the setup of dating would be most convenient for them, but neither of you are owed that.
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea. Youre not really asking to have sex, youre just trying to get some kind of validation that you are deserving of this thing called love thats supposed to be so important in life. You dont really get what attraction or infatuation means because you dont have any experience with it yet. So if you get rejected, you dont really understand how fickle love can be, and it feels like a deeply personal rejection.
I mean what even is dating when you are a child? Going to the movies and studying together? Stuff you were maybe already doing already as friends? Its pretty arbitrary of a division outside of a label. So if you get rejected that can be very confusing, especially coming from someone who ostensibly already likes you well enough, but just doesn't like you in that kind of way.
None of that is to say that you, as the object of someone elses affection, should just date that person in order to spare their feelings. But I do think there is something off about the idea that someone should be obligated to bury their own feelings just so that the other person doesnt have to deal with the complexities of those feelings.
Sometimes it sucks that you and another person have different ideals or priorities, but thats just the risk of engaging in interpersonal relationships. Sometimes they are going to be something more or less than what would be most convenient for your needs.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger:
The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?" This seems to be the result of societal expectations that boys and girls who get along must be romantically interested, rather than any strong feelings on his part.
Her first grade friends who fight over her are almost definitely also doing it due to societal expectations that have been instilled in them. First graders don't indeoendently come up with not only romantic relationships but possessive ones a priori.
The second grade example is even more obvious, because the boy never even expressed romantic interest, but merely leaves the friendship because peers are teasing him about the prospect. The idea that a boy and girl cannot be friends but MUST be romantic interests is directly what killed this friendship
Once they get older, the rationales of the boys in question become more genuinely a reflection of their romantic attraction for OP. But this societal conditioning starts way earlier, and it doesn't go away when the feelings become real. If boys and girls cannot be friends without romantic attraction involved, then maintaining the friendship after being rejected in order to earn a romantic relationship seems much more rational. This is clearly what the boy when she was 11 did -- she's not acting entitled to his friendship here. He's choosing to bury his feelings and doesn't attempt to end the friendship. OP cannot be blamed that he nurtured his entitlement and bottled up his rage until he slapped her and called her a dumb cunt.
The only guy in the whole story who actually ends the friendship in response to being rejected is the last one, the one OP met her junior year. And in isolation, that's a healthy thing to do. But he only does this aftrr hundreds of rejections and repeated attempts to escalate even though it made her uncomfortable:
This essay is not about how guys who get rejected by girls should stay their friends despite their feelings. Rather, it's about how the expectation that every male/female relationship be a romantic (and later sexual) one poisons every one of these friendships from even the youngest age. How painful it can be when the myth that men and women can't be friends is the very thing that destroys your friendships, over and over, throughout your life, and you can't do anything but watch a friendship you've nurtured wither on the altar of romance.
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend sucks too, and people who find out that their friend didn't actually want to be friends are also experiencing that loss.
I do maintain that basically all youth relationships are inherently abusive because we're all shit at it. But acknowledging that means saying this behavior is in fact abusive/harmful/etc.
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent matters a lot, as does extending grace for everyone involved for having to get the emotional equivalent of scraped knees while learning how to ride a bike.
Relationships, even young ones, can provide joy, respite, and growth. I still (vividly!) remember how wonderful the hug of my first girlfriend felt. Her smile lifted my spirits, and her hair smelled of strawberries and hope. That we were both idiots with knowing how to communicate takes nothing away from this! In fact, I find it all the more impressive that we both were able to feel this way, even through the emotional mud.
Did we do and say things that hurt each other? Yes. Did we learn how to be better, because being hurt/hurting sucks, and we didn't like that? Yes. Was it worth it in the end, even though we eventually broke up? Yes! And I can confidently say she helped make me a better partner, and I know she feels the same, because we talked about it years later as adults. Neither of us would have been able to get to where we are now without going through the often painful learning process, but I just can't bring myself to see that as a negative. It was in pursuit of real connection.
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might look back on a situation, but in the moment, I think the impact is more important. It's sort of like how when someone says something racist - intent can matter, and so does frequency, and whether they change/apologize/etc- but the thing they said is still racist.
I'm not condemning young relationships, I don't think the vast majority of teens are truly capable of not doing abusive things. That doesn't mean they only do abusive things. And I agree it's all part of learning. But I think it's worth pointing out when they're doing abusive things so they can learn. Whether the language is abusive or toxic or whatever makes people feel better about using it.
(This is based only off my personal experiences as a teen and professional experience working with college students for about 8 years, not research.)
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall they're less than good, instead of being mostly great with some jagged bones in them.
Certainly not abusive, as there normally isnt and shouldn't have a weird power dynamic involved. Maybe a maturity differential? There can be abusive young love, if one person is much more knowledgeable or more skillfully manipulative than the other, but not inherently I think.
An analogy I used back then was that we're both shark and life preservers for each other.
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the whole relationship as trash. I don't think abuse can only happen with a power differential (but also, those differentials can look very different among teens than among adults). Most people are going to hurt each other a lot in young relationships. Whether that makes any individual relationship "good" or "bad" isn't something I'm trying to speak on.
Even in your example, I'd argue a partner who's a metaphorical "shark" is doing abusive or harmful things. Even if it is only because bumping into you with that rough skin can cut. I don't think the normalacy is relevant, lots of relationships can be abusive and be the norm in any particular culture. But my point is I'm not condemning all young love or anything, just acknowledging that there's a lot of hurting going around as you do things for the first time(s), and are developmentally still working on some of those higher brain functions and decision making skills.
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree
It's a tough time! Thank goodness I made it!
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore.
And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since reformed and think back upon that day with great shame.
I suspect that there was some toxic masculinity involved in the negative cases. A girl with an unrequited love is viewed as a pining romantic: neutral to positive. A boy with an unrequited love is a loser, a lesser than, a beta, a cuck, worthless and undeserving and a target for violence and derision. A girl rejected feels hurt, but a boy rejected feels hurt and the danger of losing social standing and worth in the Patriarchy. The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
With regards to friend zones, it goes both ways. There are innocent boys and girls blindsided by sudden loss of friendship who bear it with a quiet, suffering grace. And then there are not so innocent boys and girls who use friendship status to control, manipulate, guilt, glean resources, improve standing, sabotage relationships and dangle hope for selfish vanities. I think folks outgrow it for the most part and become better friends and better partners.
Absolutely spot-on imo.
As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout.
I hope parents of today talk to their kids early and often about kindness and friendship, and gently about how sometimes it can go wrong. Be kind, but also know that we're not all ready to be kind all the time already.....my parents probably erred too much on the side of anxiety and preached doom about all my childhood friendships with guys. But they weren't totally wrong to talk about when things can still go wrong despite 100% clarity and kindness from my side.
Do you have some thoughts about the unequally common portion of your comment response? I'd love to hear your experiences with young love and friends zoning
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained super close friends with no problems thereafter in both cases. I didn't even really pine by any definition. I valued our existing friendship far more than any romantic potential, and my confessions more or less affected nothing.
One of these friends did come out as gay in the process of rejecting me, which was the straw that eventually broke the camel's back for my evangelical faith, but that was more or less unrelated to any romantic feelings I had. Being scared he'd suffer in Hell for eternity overwhelmed any sense of missing out I had personally. My support for him thereafter wasn't related to any lingering romance, but rather my strong platonic love for him as a friend.
As for the inequality, I just think that a substantial fraction of reports of the latter type are coming from perpetrators of the former type.
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back.
One sexually harassed me;
details
offered me a soda if she could sit on my lap, grabbed my ass in a hug and very intentionally walked in on me changing.On a positive note, I had one woman who was perfectly nice and respectful. Nothing came of it, but it is nice to have some point of reference for decent treatment. Same with the one gay guy that showed any interest in me.