Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone". Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't...
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't interested in them.
Alternatively, if they are cool being a friend to that person, without hoping for something more, then they aren't in a friend zone. They chose to be friends with a person.
The whole thing is about men with low confidence hoping to dodge rejection by not asking women shortly after meeting them. They hope by being friends first they can ease into dating and avoid rejection. I'm sure that happens in a minority of cases.
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned" But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but...
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned"
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
If they say yes then good we move our relationship forward.
Anything other than a yes needs to be taken as a NO. Things like "I don't want a relationship right now" is a no, they are just being kind. You then need to decide if you are comfortable (and able) to stay friends and respect the boundaries that are put up, sometimes the best thing is to walk away and that is ok. The most important thing is you don't ask again or keep pestering, they know you like them, if they change their mind they can ask you out but don't expect that to happen.
(And for the record all the examples from the Tumblr post are exactly what you don't do, and they are all bad people)
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a...
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a proposition myself, but I personally think propositioning a stranger is just a much less common thing to do outside of, like, dating apps and speed dating. I wouldn't have enough interest to overcome the social boundary of letting strangers alone without getting to know them first.
Rejection was painful and all, it always is, but every time I revealed to a friend I'd developed the crush on them, my biggest fear was not rejection but rather that they'd decide to end the friendship in response. Fortunately, this never happened, so I must've done something right.
No worries, it's slang you might not have encountered before. I'm trans (nonbinary specifically). Having your egg cracked is slang for realizing you're trans, and this all occurred before I did,...
No worries, it's slang you might not have encountered before. I'm trans (nonbinary specifically). Having your egg cracked is slang for realizing you're trans, and this all occurred before I did, so I was perceived as a girl both by others and myself at the time.
To add-on to sparksbet's response - the egg concept is a in-joke in the trans community (and has spread even further due to things like /r/egg_irl showing up on reddit's front page) where someone...
To add-on to sparksbet's response - the egg concept is a in-joke in the trans community (and has spread even further due to things like /r/egg_irl showing up on reddit's front page) where someone who is trans or showing signs of being trans, but hasn't realized it yet, is called an egg. "Cracks" are when some of that shows through, often in an "obvious in hindsight" way. And then "hatching" (or having your egg cracked in this case) is them figuring out that they are trans.
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their...
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their compatibility with you for intimacy at all times. It's OKAY to be just friends with people.
That's where I think people who complain about the friend zone struggle. They see friendship as a required stepping stone to an intimate relationship. They treat it like a dating sim where the end result if you work hard enough and say the right things and bring the right gifts, then you are owed an intimate relationship and that's just not the right way of doing it.
The funny thing is, if you make friends and just genuinely enjoy the friendships, you will become much more attractive to everyone who knows you and finding someone to be intimate with becomes...
Exemplary
The funny thing is, if you make friends and just genuinely enjoy the friendships, you will become much more attractive to everyone who knows you and finding someone to be intimate with becomes insanely easy.
This will sound like bragging, but I genuinely hope it inspires someone. It's something I excelled at before I settled down and I want so badly to share "the secret."
I'm not a traditionally attractive guy. Big nose, scrawny, average height, weak chin, terrible hairline. I've always batted way out of my league to the point that it became a joke among my family and friends. My own mother used to frequently say, "How the hell..." Thanks Mom.
This one guy I knew from high school - used to be an asshole to me - asked me straight up one day years after we graduated, "Alright man, what are you doing? It kind of always pissed me off and now I just want to know."
I seriously thought about it and said something like, "I don't know. Not really trying? I just make friends with people and meet more people. Sometimes it works out, other times I make friends with someone cool."
Women are the best wingmen, hands down. I was friends with my wife for a decade before we realized there might be a spark. In that time, she was a great friend to me and helped me meet two long-term girlfriends. She put in a good word for me with both of them. That's very valuable to women. They appreciate when you've been vetted and aren't a creep or psycho. More than that, they like to see that you can respect a woman as a legitimate friend and equal without trying to sleep with her. Important note: if you're doing it to get laid, you're already doing it wrong. The goal is friendships, fun, and experiences.
It's okay to have friends you find attractive. But don't hang your entire sense of self worth on the idea that you will someday be with them. Ideally, you should have enough friends and be open enough to meeting new people that you have a dozen friends with whom you "would" and two dozen with whom you wouldn't. Meet their friends. Meet their friends' friends. Be that guy who is positive and fun to be around. And when you are feeling awkward or uncomfortable, get people talking about themselves. In a group keep it light and happy. In a more private conversation, let the other person open up about something that they are going through or have been through. This is a huge shortcut to closer friendships. Everyone has a struggle and everyone wants to be seen for who they really are. See them.
One caveat: all of this hinges on your ability to read social cues. Don't be a paranoid and awkward weirdo, but take a hint. The goal is to ask, receive, and reciprocate. Conversations should be close to 50/50 and sharing should be done layer by layer, like an onion. If someone is talking about the weather, you can't jump into the death of your uncle and how traumatic it was for you. You have to peel it back slowly and take note of the layer the other person is sharing with you.
I add this last bit because I know this guy who would, on the surface, seem to be following all of my advice. But he doesn't understand why you don't talk about the Rape of Nanking with a table full of new faces and the girl you just met. He also can't tell the difference between someone who is being polite and someone who is genuinely enjoying his conversations. Nice guy but he's going to be alone forever if he doesn't learn to read a room. Don't be that guy. If you're bad at dancing, let the other person lead, ya know?
Very very very much this. With apologies to Margaret Atwood's original quote, while men are stressing about if the women will date/sleep with them, the women are stressing about if the men will...
She put in a good word for me with both of them. That's very valuable to women. They appreciate when you've been vetted and aren't a creep or psycho.
Very very very much this. With apologies to Margaret Atwood's original quote, while men are stressing about if the women will date/sleep with them, the women are stressing about if the men will kill them.
I like your specific advice about friendship as well. Sometimes some of us really do need things spelled out in text form for us. :/
I love this but also cringe as an introvert who doesn't have the energy for so many friends! :D This doesn't matter in my case as I already have a partner. Also, I assume people could do this on a...
I love this but also cringe as an introvert who doesn't have the energy for so many friends! :D
This doesn't matter in my case as I already have a partner. Also, I assume people could do this on a much smaller scale. Just may take longer or more luck to find the right match.
Oh and it occurred to me too -- someone with a solid friend group meeting many of their needs might also make one more appealing. E.g., I think this approach would improve the person's life (and...
Oh and it occurred to me too -- someone with a solid friend group meeting many of their needs might also make one more appealing. E.g., I think this approach would improve the person's life (and emotional resiliency / support network) and also their prospects by avoiding some turn offs (for some people) which might include: loneliness, desperation, someone expecting a future partner to meet all of their needs, etc.
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always...
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always been awkward, and I don't like being the first to share my feelings in person, and I've sat around with crushes on guys for ages. it was miserable.
But I never said "he's a motherfucking asshole" for not dating me. Or slapped him. Or felt entitled to his time (or did the weird shit with sabotaging the relationships he got in)
Same with women, though I wasn't a teenager when I figured that shit out so I was slightly better about it.
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked. It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to...
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked.
It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to them.
I just assume some people learn this shit from TV, the internet, or their parents. I just cant imagine spontaneously thinking of all that wild shit.
Also, it might be related to how like the only emotions guys are allowed to show are happy and angry. A guy cant just express his feelings of loss upon being rejected, he must show anger.
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage...
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage of someone who they're attracted to, who wants to keep their hope alive so they can benefit from the "friendship"
Eg, I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my...
Eg,
I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now
I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my school / sports / career / family, so let's be friends
I'm terrified of my super awful partner whom I don't love but they have my culture group / parents / kids / job / money / whatever, so we have to appear to be friends for now
I'm still too freshly separated from my ex, and I don't want people to talk badly of you (me) so let's hang on to the title of friends for now
how can I bear to split my soul / go back on my vows / whatever that prevents me from having my cake and eat it too
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people...
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people who report being friendzoned often believe that they're being strung along retroactively. It happens, but probably not to level that the "friendzoned" person thinks that it does. It's sort of an example of when intent really does matter - because it's inherent to the ... crime is not the right word here, but you know what I mean.
It seems like a lot of friendzoned folks feel strung along, but is that accurate or is it interfering with their assessment of their own responsibility? I don't know that I can say in the aggregate.
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very...
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very occasionally hold hands, and even short vacations with the two of them. Basically do every emotional cheating date thing shy of kisses and sex. But they're friends because the leader is already in a relationship so don't you dare confess feelings and ruin this beautiful and pure "friendship". But the official relationship is always on the rocks and the friend hears all about it. When I saw it it was pretty obviously leading someone on.
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing...
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing I file into "friendzone" as that usually implies their person of interest isn't interested in them. But I see what you're talking about.
This feels more like when they promise they're leaving their partner eventually and you're really important, we swear, but we can't marry yet, because of the kids! (or whatever)
Either way it definitely falls in to the "if you stick around here you're gonna be miserable" box.
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and...
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and chaste and wonderful friendship, no shadow of cheating going on here. The mark is then lulled into a false sense of "well I'm glad my years ago confession didn't ruin our current perfectly normal and pure and chaste friendship". How much the mark was lying to themselves vs they were young and thought they had honestly moved on is opaque to me, the bystander friend.
It was fairly commonly occurring in my extended circles, unfortunately
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person...
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person manipulates them by agreeing to a few dates, at some point the person will try to get physical, get rebuffed, and know that their interest isn't returned. It is then up to them to hang around, be friends, be a patsy, or make a diplomatic exit.
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs. Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs.
Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
Disagreed. I personally know women who self admittedly keep a bunch of men on a short leash to get favors from them. While it's true that these men could leave, victims of manipulation and abuse...
Disagreed. I personally know women who self admittedly keep a bunch of men on a short leash to get favors from them. While it's true that these men could leave, victims of manipulation and abuse don't always do. It's one of those things where if the genders were swapped people would be outraged, but since it's men who are affected, it's their personal responsibility.
Slight disagree: even when we were young, whenever we saw awful girls doing this to guys we always called them what it was. There's some-to-none personal responsibility, but most-to-all of the...
Slight disagree: even when we were young, whenever we saw awful girls doing this to guys we always called them what it was. There's some-to-none personal responsibility, but most-to-all of the blame rest on the manipulator (case by case). From a young age we were able to recognize it's not cool from either gender.
Honestly, I'd like people to try to define more concisely what they mean by "friend zone" because I don't recognize all the baggage many people seem to attribute to it, and find my understanding...
Honestly, I'd like people to try to define more concisely what they mean by "friend zone" because I don't recognize all the baggage many people seem to attribute to it, and find my understanding of it to be a very real thing.
So, here's my take on it, which at least to me holds a useful definition. Reasonable people may completely disagree.
Saying you are "in the friend zone" of someone is a short hand for saying that
you both have enjoyed being friends
with respect to general sexual and/or romantic orientation, you are both "compatible" with each other
you would like to explore a romantic or sexual relationship with them
they are not willing to explore the possibility of a romantic or sexual relationship with you
That is, it describes a situation of unreciprocated want to presently explore romantic or sexual relationships between two friends who, considering only their romantic and/or sexual orientations, are compatible.
The reason they are not willing to explore a romantic or sexual relationship doesn't matter for the definition. They might just not be attracted to you specifically in that way. They might be in a committed monogamous relationship. They might be too stressed to deal with a relationship right now.
People being angry or violent over admitting to being attracted to a long-term friend and hearing it's not mutual is an unhealthy reaction to being in the friend zone, not a requirement for the descriptor to be apt.
People who mislead others with respect to whether they are in the friend zone by maliciously keeping the prospect of such a relationship on the table in order to extract some benefit (attention, gifts, services, etc.) are abusive people manipulating the perception of whether someone is in the friend zone for personal gain.
People may or may not know whether they are in the friend zone, and they may react in different ways to finding out, but unless they can control who they are attracted to, who they would like more intimate relationships with, they can't choose to leave it.
I probably think of it this way because it is very much a real thing in my life, and I have been on both sides of such relationships. I am someone who generally speaking
can feel strong sexual attraction at first sight
can most often only feel romantic attraction after getting to know someone over several months if not a couple of years
only really wants an intimate relationship when I am both sexually and romantically attracted to someone
do not want to string along someone I've recently met into an intimate relationship when it could be years before I even know if I want it
and as such your last paragraph is incredibly demoralizing. I don't seek to avoid rejection by getting to know people first, I seek to build the requisite foundation for me to actually desire an intimate relationship with them without leading them on about the prospects of what a relationship may entail when we've recently met.
Yes, if we have been friends for a long time, and I develop a romantic attraction, it can hurt a friendship. It can even kill it. But if I feel a torrent of emotions every time I see you and know that there's no healthy way for me to express it, then as much as it sucks to lose a friend it's not feasible for me to stay around them.
At least for me, I only ever use the phrase friendzone in the abusive/immature, intentional and unhealthy sense, from either end. Anything else is just regular okay friendship, or in a healthy non...
At least for me, I only ever use the phrase friendzone in the abusive/immature, intentional and unhealthy sense, from either end. Anything else is just regular okay friendship, or in a healthy non abusive way a friendship containing unrequited love.
Type A - friends
We're just friends and neither have romantic or sexual feelings for each other. Bros!
Type B - unrequited friends
If I have a crush on my friend but they don't feel that way, I'm not being friends zoned. My friend should likewise not have to worry about if they're unintentionally putting me in the friends zone, because I'm taking care of myself and maintaining proper distance. in a healthy, mature relationship, the crush will fade and we go back to being Type A friends. Sometimes people will date and then break up, there might be a period during which one still feels something, but if the friendship survives, eventually the lingering feelings fade and they become Type A friends again.
Type C - upwards friendzone
If I were some sort of under socialized, immature, angry and bitter gnome, then yes I might conclude my totally innocent friend is friendzoning me, and my friendship would be a false one because my intention is never to be their friend. My friendliness is only means to obtaining emotional or physical intimacy, a step ladder to be discarded the moment I am allowed into the tower. And I would be in the wrong.
Type D - downwards friendzone
Alternatively, I could be the selfish, abusive, attention seeking monster who keeps a suitor at arm's length for my own benefit, and stealing the title of "friendship" as a cover up for this codependent trainwreck. My intention is never to be actual friends nor lovers: I am always encouraging the suitor to stand on a friendship ladder while my tower window is closed.
Type E - bidirectional friendzone
Sometimes, the stars align and a terrible person finds another terrible person. In this case, there is no friendship at all, only games and awfulness. The suitor doesn't want to be friends except as means to the beloved, and the pursued is already enjoying all the perks of being pursued and have no interest in calling this situation anything else. It becomes this unhealthy mutual parasitism.
In the original post, the author frequently, innocently, and undeservingly find themselves the object of obsession from Type C non-friends. Some of them become insulted and feel their manhood threatened, and out of perseveration conclude that the author is a Type D non-friend, and vent their anger and aggression upon the author. Often, this is projection: if I am a conniving non-friend, I am more likely to see the other person as a conniving non-friend.
Sometimes, a person is just young and immature, and they slide from Type B into Type C because they never has the maturity to develop their own boundaries yet. They thought they're okay to do certain things as just friends with a crush, but when they feel lonely afterwards they discover the actions they previously consented to actually crosses their own boundaries. So their negative feelings about themselves can fester into negative feelings about their friend. They're not thoroughly terrible people per se in this case, but if unchecked by growth and self reflection, or they allow dark thoughts to materialize into action, they can become terrible people.
So with all that said, I wouldn't feel demoralized. Your true friends will also project true friendship, and whether there is attraction one way or not. If attraction occurs, mature people will be able to see that there is genuine friendship and value that between them, and communicate like adults and explicate/re-adjust boundaries.
Thank you for clarifying your perspective. I don't exactly agree with everything you've said, but accepting that this is what it means to you (and maybe to the OP of this thread as well) makes the...
Thank you for clarifying your perspective. I don't exactly agree with everything you've said, but accepting that this is what it means to you (and maybe to the OP of this thread as well) makes the original comment significantly more reasonable to me.
Why would anyone ever ask out someone who they're not friends with? I honestly never understood that. Like, you barely even know the person, how can you be so sure that you want to commit to a...
The whole thing is about men with low confidence hoping to dodge rejection by not asking women shortly after meeting them
Why would anyone ever ask out someone who they're not friends with? I honestly never understood that. Like, you barely even know the person, how can you be so sure that you want to commit to a romantic relationship with them??? I think so many breakups and cheating cases happen because people start dating someone before getting to know them well.
For people who ask out strangers, dating is getting to know them well. Asking someone out isn't proposing commitment, it's only proposing spending some time together one-on-one.
For people who ask out strangers, dating is getting to know them well. Asking someone out isn't proposing commitment, it's only proposing spending some time together one-on-one.
Ok, so why would getting to know them one on one and then committing to a relationship be good, but getting to know them by being friends and then moving to a relationship be a sign of "low...
Ok, so why would getting to know them one on one and then committing to a relationship be good, but getting to know them by being friends and then moving to a relationship be a sign of "low confidence"?
If you're entering a friendship with the intent of turning it romantic, that could be seen as trying to leverage the person's existing emotional investment in you as a friend to improve the odds...
If you're entering a friendship with the intent of turning it romantic, that could be seen as trying to leverage the person's existing emotional investment in you as a friend to improve the odds of them agreeing to explore the potential for romance. Basically relying on the sunk cost fallacy rather than being direct in your interest and taking the raw odds.
But that is a specific scenario, not applicable to e.g. people who only develop romantic interest after getting to deeply know someone as a friend.
If you know you'd ultimately like to pursue a romantic relationship but you go in trying to build a friendship first - which is what's being criticized - it's a bit of a bait-and-switch. You...
If you know you'd ultimately like to pursue a romantic relationship but you go in trying to build a friendship first - which is what's being criticized - it's a bit of a bait-and-switch. You offered one thing, they signed on, now you're trying to do something else with it.
If you don't know if you want a friendship or a romantic relationship, you just start spending time with a person and getting to know them, and then after you've become friends you develop romantic feelings for them, that's a completely different thing.
You don't commit to a romantic relationship when you ask someone out. You go on a date. If it goes well, you go on another. You usually don't commit to anything until you've gotten to know the...
You don't commit to a romantic relationship when you ask someone out. You go on a date. If it goes well, you go on another. You usually don't commit to anything until you've gotten to know the person at least a little bit.
I know plenty of people who cheated or broke up after dating friends. It's not a key to a perfect relationship. I also wasn't friends with my husband before we started dating. We broke up when he went away to college and before we got back together we tried to be friends and that didn't work at all. We are best friends, but we can't be just friends, and never could be.
have you used a dating app? that's basically an app that shows you a bunch of strangers that when you match you're theoretically interested enough to get to know each other through dating.
have you used a dating app? that's basically an app that shows you a bunch of strangers that when you match you're theoretically interested enough to get to know each other through dating.
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel. But I would also maybe extend that rule to...
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel.
But I would also maybe extend that rule to friendship. Nobody owes you a friendship. If for any reason someone decides that dont want to be your friend anymore, that ought to be allowed too. The setup of being friends is what would be most convenient for you, and the setup of dating would be most convenient for them, but neither of you are owed that.
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea. Youre not really asking to have sex, youre just trying to get some kind of validation that you are deserving of this thing called love thats supposed to be so important in life. You dont really get what attraction or infatuation means because you dont have any experience with it yet. So if you get rejected, you dont really understand how fickle love can be, and it feels like a deeply personal rejection.
I mean what even is dating when you are a child? Going to the movies and studying together? Stuff you were maybe already doing already as friends? Its pretty arbitrary of a division outside of a label. So if you get rejected that can be very confusing, especially coming from someone who ostensibly already likes you well enough, but just doesn't like you in that kind of way.
None of that is to say that you, as the object of someone elses affection, should just date that person in order to spare their feelings. But I do think there is something off about the idea that someone should be obligated to bury their own feelings just so that the other person doesnt have to deal with the complexities of those feelings.
Sometimes it sucks that you and another person have different ideals or priorities, but thats just the risk of engaging in interpersonal relationships. Sometimes they are going to be something more or less than what would be most convenient for your needs.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger: The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?"...
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger:
The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?" This seems to be the result of societal expectations that boys and girls who get along must be romantically interested, rather than any strong feelings on his part.
Her first grade friends who fight over her are almost definitely also doing it due to societal expectations that have been instilled in them. First graders don't indeoendently come up with not only romantic relationships but possessive ones a priori.
The second grade example is even more obvious, because the boy never even expressed romantic interest, but merely leaves the friendship because peers are teasing him about the prospect. The idea that a boy and girl cannot be friends but MUST be romantic interests is directly what killed this friendship
Once they get older, the rationales of the boys in question become more genuinely a reflection of their romantic attraction for OP. But this societal conditioning starts way earlier, and it doesn't go away when the feelings become real. If boys and girls cannot be friends without romantic attraction involved, then maintaining the friendship after being rejected in order to earn a romantic relationship seems much more rational. This is clearly what the boy when she was 11 did -- she's not acting entitled to his friendship here. He's choosing to bury his feelings and doesn't attempt to end the friendship. OP cannot be blamed that he nurtured his entitlement and bottled up his rage until he slapped her and called her a dumb cunt.
The only guy in the whole story who actually ends the friendship in response to being rejected is the last one, the one OP met her junior year. And in isolation, that's a healthy thing to do. But he only does this aftrr hundreds of rejections and repeated attempts to escalate even though it made her uncomfortable:
but he'd put his arms around me on the couch, and no matter how many times i told him i was uncomfortable, he'd still come over every day and do it.
This essay is not about how guys who get rejected by girls should stay their friends despite their feelings. Rather, it's about how the expectation that every male/female relationship be a romantic (and later sexual) one poisons every one of these friendships from even the youngest age. How painful it can be when the myth that men and women can't be friends is the very thing that destroys your friendships, over and over, throughout your life, and you can't do anything but watch a friendship you've nurtured wither on the altar of romance.
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend...
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend sucks too, and people who find out that their friend didn't actually want to be friends are also experiencing that loss.
I do maintain that basically all youth relationships are inherently abusive because we're all shit at it. But acknowledging that means saying this behavior is in fact abusive/harmful/etc.
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent...
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent matters a lot, as does extending grace for everyone involved for having to get the emotional equivalent of scraped knees while learning how to ride a bike.
Relationships, even young ones, can provide joy, respite, and growth. I still (vividly!) remember how wonderful the hug of my first girlfriend felt. Her smile lifted my spirits, and her hair smelled of strawberries and hope. That we were both idiots with knowing how to communicate takes nothing away from this! In fact, I find it all the more impressive that we both were able to feel this way, even through the emotional mud.
Did we do and say things that hurt each other? Yes. Did we learn how to be better, because being hurt/hurting sucks, and we didn't like that? Yes. Was it worth it in the end, even though we eventually broke up? Yes! And I can confidently say she helped make me a better partner, and I know she feels the same, because we talked about it years later as adults. Neither of us would have been able to get to where we are now without going through the often painful learning process, but I just can't bring myself to see that as a negative. It was in pursuit of real connection.
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might...
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might look back on a situation, but in the moment, I think the impact is more important. It's sort of like how when someone says something racist - intent can matter, and so does frequency, and whether they change/apologize/etc- but the thing they said is still racist.
I'm not condemning young relationships, I don't think the vast majority of teens are truly capable of not doing abusive things. That doesn't mean they only do abusive things. And I agree it's all part of learning. But I think it's worth pointing out when they're doing abusive things so they can learn. Whether the language is abusive or toxic or whatever makes people feel better about using it.
(This is based only off my personal experiences as a teen and professional experience working with college students for about 8 years, not research.)
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall...
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall they're less than good, instead of being mostly great with some jagged bones in them.
Certainly not abusive, as there normally isnt and shouldn't have a weird power dynamic involved. Maybe a maturity differential? There can be abusive young love, if one person is much more knowledgeable or more skillfully manipulative than the other, but not inherently I think.
An analogy I used back then was that we're both shark and life preservers for each other.
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the...
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the whole relationship as trash. I don't think abuse can only happen with a power differential (but also, those differentials can look very different among teens than among adults). Most people are going to hurt each other a lot in young relationships. Whether that makes any individual relationship "good" or "bad" isn't something I'm trying to speak on.
Even in your example, I'd argue a partner who's a metaphorical "shark" is doing abusive or harmful things. Even if it is only because bumping into you with that rough skin can cut. I don't think the normalacy is relevant, lots of relationships can be abusive and be the norm in any particular culture. But my point is I'm not condemning all young love or anything, just acknowledging that there's a lot of hurting going around as you do things for the first time(s), and are developmentally still working on some of those higher brain functions and decision making skills.
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree It's a tough time! Thank goodness I made it!
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore. And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since...
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore.
And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since reformed and think back upon that day with great shame.
I suspect that there was some toxic masculinity involved in the negative cases. A girl with an unrequited love is viewed as a pining romantic: neutral to positive. A boy with an unrequited love is a loser, a lesser than, a beta, a cuck, worthless and undeserving and a target for violence and derision. A girl rejected feels hurt, but a boy rejected feels hurt and the danger of losing social standing and worth in the Patriarchy. The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
With regards to friend zones, it goes both ways. There are innocent boys and girls blindsided by sudden loss of friendship who bear it with a quiet, suffering grace. And then there are not so innocent boys and girls who use friendship status to control, manipulate, guilt, glean resources, improve standing, sabotage relationships and dangle hope for selfish vanities. I think folks outgrow it for the most part and become better friends and better partners.
Absolutely spot-on imo. As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
Absolutely spot-on imo.
As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout. I hope parents of today talk to their...
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout.
I hope parents of today talk to their kids early and often about kindness and friendship, and gently about how sometimes it can go wrong. Be kind, but also know that we're not all ready to be kind all the time already.....my parents probably erred too much on the side of anxiety and preached doom about all my childhood friendships with guys. But they weren't totally wrong to talk about when things can still go wrong despite 100% clarity and kindness from my side.
Do you have some thoughts about the unequally common portion of your comment response? I'd love to hear your experiences with young love and friends zoning
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained...
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained super close friends with no problems thereafter in both cases. I didn't even really pine by any definition. I valued our existing friendship far more than any romantic potential, and my confessions more or less affected nothing.
One of these friends did come out as gay in the process of rejecting me, which was the straw that eventually broke the camel's back for my evangelical faith, but that was more or less unrelated to any romantic feelings I had. Being scared he'd suffer in Hell for eternity overwhelmed any sense of missing out I had personally. My support for him thereafter wasn't related to any lingering romance, but rather my strong platonic love for him as a friend.
As for the inequality, I just think that a substantial fraction of reports of the latter type are coming from perpetrators of the former type.
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back. One sexually harassed me;...
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back.
One sexually harassed me;
detailsoffered me a soda if she could sit on my lap, grabbed my ass in a hug and very intentionally walked in on me changing. One probably did something(s) to keep other people away from me; I don't have concrete proof, but enough hints and weird things to be pretty certain. And 2 that were emotional wrecks that forced me into a pseudo-therapist role with no mutual support from them; they were also uncomfortably possessive for a friendship.
On a positive note, I had one woman who was perfectly nice and respectful. Nothing came of it, but it is nice to have some point of reference for decent treatment. Same with the one gay guy that showed any interest in me.
Nobody puts anyone in the "friend zone".
Guys who are there chose to be there. They were/are free to leave anytime. They can go pursue other women and not spend their time with women who aren't interested in them.
Alternatively, if they are cool being a friend to that person, without hoping for something more, then they aren't in a friend zone. They chose to be friends with a person.
The whole thing is about men with low confidence hoping to dodge rejection by not asking women shortly after meeting them. They hope by being friends first they can ease into dating and avoid rejection. I'm sure that happens in a minority of cases.
I agree with your sentiment that you choose to be "friend zoned"
But I disagree with your last point. Personally I prefer to befriend a girl before asking her out not out of fear of rejection but because I want to know that we can get along first, or a crush develops over time that wasn't there when we meet.
If they say yes then good we move our relationship forward.
Anything other than a yes needs to be taken as a NO. Things like "I don't want a relationship right now" is a no, they are just being kind. You then need to decide if you are comfortable (and able) to stay friends and respect the boundaries that are put up, sometimes the best thing is to walk away and that is ok. The most important thing is you don't ask again or keep pestering, they know you like them, if they change their mind they can ask you out but don't expect that to happen.
(And for the record all the examples from the Tumblr post are exactly what you don't do, and they are all bad people)
Fwiw, this is also how it always went for me (and as my egg cracked after I was already married, I was more or less a girl from everyone's perspective at the time). I've never been the target of a proposition myself, but I personally think propositioning a stranger is just a much less common thing to do outside of, like, dating apps and speed dating. I wouldn't have enough interest to overcome the social boundary of letting strangers alone without getting to know them first.
Rejection was painful and all, it always is, but every time I revealed to a friend I'd developed the crush on them, my biggest fear was not rejection but rather that they'd decide to end the friendship in response. Fortunately, this never happened, so I must've done something right.
Could you explain what this means? I’m not familiar with this turn of phrase and the following context.
No worries, it's slang you might not have encountered before. I'm trans (nonbinary specifically). Having your egg cracked is slang for realizing you're trans, and this all occurred before I did, so I was perceived as a girl both by others and myself at the time.
Understood, thank you for sharing!
To add-on to sparksbet's response - the egg concept is a in-joke in the trans community (and has spread even further due to things like /r/egg_irl showing up on reddit's front page) where someone who is trans or showing signs of being trans, but hasn't realized it yet, is called an egg. "Cracks" are when some of that shows through, often in an "obvious in hindsight" way. And then "hatching" (or having your egg cracked in this case) is them figuring out that they are trans.
If I were to give my younger self some advice, it's that you can't be trying to make friends for a goal of anything besides having social contact. You don't need to evaluate individuals on their compatibility with you for intimacy at all times. It's OKAY to be just friends with people.
That's where I think people who complain about the friend zone struggle. They see friendship as a required stepping stone to an intimate relationship. They treat it like a dating sim where the end result if you work hard enough and say the right things and bring the right gifts, then you are owed an intimate relationship and that's just not the right way of doing it.
The funny thing is, if you make friends and just genuinely enjoy the friendships, you will become much more attractive to everyone who knows you and finding someone to be intimate with becomes insanely easy.
This will sound like bragging, but I genuinely hope it inspires someone. It's something I excelled at before I settled down and I want so badly to share "the secret."
I'm not a traditionally attractive guy. Big nose, scrawny, average height, weak chin, terrible hairline. I've always batted way out of my league to the point that it became a joke among my family and friends. My own mother used to frequently say, "How the hell..." Thanks Mom.
This one guy I knew from high school - used to be an asshole to me - asked me straight up one day years after we graduated, "Alright man, what are you doing? It kind of always pissed me off and now I just want to know."
I seriously thought about it and said something like, "I don't know. Not really trying? I just make friends with people and meet more people. Sometimes it works out, other times I make friends with someone cool."
Women are the best wingmen, hands down. I was friends with my wife for a decade before we realized there might be a spark. In that time, she was a great friend to me and helped me meet two long-term girlfriends. She put in a good word for me with both of them. That's very valuable to women. They appreciate when you've been vetted and aren't a creep or psycho. More than that, they like to see that you can respect a woman as a legitimate friend and equal without trying to sleep with her. Important note: if you're doing it to get laid, you're already doing it wrong. The goal is friendships, fun, and experiences.
It's okay to have friends you find attractive. But don't hang your entire sense of self worth on the idea that you will someday be with them. Ideally, you should have enough friends and be open enough to meeting new people that you have a dozen friends with whom you "would" and two dozen with whom you wouldn't. Meet their friends. Meet their friends' friends. Be that guy who is positive and fun to be around. And when you are feeling awkward or uncomfortable, get people talking about themselves. In a group keep it light and happy. In a more private conversation, let the other person open up about something that they are going through or have been through. This is a huge shortcut to closer friendships. Everyone has a struggle and everyone wants to be seen for who they really are. See them.
One caveat: all of this hinges on your ability to read social cues. Don't be a paranoid and awkward weirdo, but take a hint. The goal is to ask, receive, and reciprocate. Conversations should be close to 50/50 and sharing should be done layer by layer, like an onion. If someone is talking about the weather, you can't jump into the death of your uncle and how traumatic it was for you. You have to peel it back slowly and take note of the layer the other person is sharing with you.
I add this last bit because I know this guy who would, on the surface, seem to be following all of my advice. But he doesn't understand why you don't talk about the Rape of Nanking with a table full of new faces and the girl you just met. He also can't tell the difference between someone who is being polite and someone who is genuinely enjoying his conversations. Nice guy but he's going to be alone forever if he doesn't learn to read a room. Don't be that guy. If you're bad at dancing, let the other person lead, ya know?
Very very very much this. With apologies to Margaret Atwood's original quote, while men are stressing about if the women will date/sleep with them, the women are stressing about if the men will kill them.
I like your specific advice about friendship as well. Sometimes some of us really do need things spelled out in text form for us. :/
I love this but also cringe as an introvert who doesn't have the energy for so many friends! :D
This doesn't matter in my case as I already have a partner. Also, I assume people could do this on a much smaller scale. Just may take longer or more luck to find the right match.
Oh and it occurred to me too -- someone with a solid friend group meeting many of their needs might also make one more appealing. E.g., I think this approach would improve the person's life (and emotional resiliency / support network) and also their prospects by avoiding some turn offs (for some people) which might include: loneliness, desperation, someone expecting a future partner to meet all of their needs, etc.
People do sometimes date their friends. But sitting around being friends with someone for that reason is at a minimum making you miserable. I can speak from my personal experience. I've always been awkward, and I don't like being the first to share my feelings in person, and I've sat around with crushes on guys for ages. it was miserable.
But I never said "he's a motherfucking asshole" for not dating me. Or slapped him. Or felt entitled to his time (or did the weird shit with sabotaging the relationships he got in)
Same with women, though I wasn't a teenager when I figured that shit out so I was slightly better about it.
Same! It never even crossed my mind to sabotage the relationship of someone I liked.
It just always seemed logical that they’d always somehow know it was my fault and hate me for doing that to them.
I just assume some people learn this shit from TV, the internet, or their parents. I just cant imagine spontaneously thinking of all that wild shit.
Also, it might be related to how like the only emotions guys are allowed to show are happy and angry. A guy cant just express his feelings of loss upon being rejected, he must show anger.
While it's not as common as people act like, yes it absolutely happens, and usually maliciously. Maybe you've got a different term for it, but i've known men and women who've been taken advantage of someone who they're attracted to, who wants to keep their hope alive so they can benefit from the "friendship"
Eg,
I'm just not totally ready to break up with my steady partner yet, that's why we should stay friends for now
I'm dealing with a lot and I'm not ready for a relationship yet; I'm focusing on my school / sports / career / family, so let's be friends
I'm terrified of my super awful partner whom I don't love but they have my culture group / parents / kids / job / money / whatever, so we have to appear to be friends for now
I'm still too freshly separated from my ex, and I don't want people to talk badly of you (me) so let's hang on to the title of friends for now
how can I bear to split my soul / go back on my vows / whatever that prevents me from having my cake and eat it too
Even works for senior retired people, sadly.
I don't think leading someone on explicitly is "friendzone" material, because you're deliberately suggesting this person wouldn't be just friends when you're doing that. The problem is that people who report being friendzoned often believe that they're being strung along retroactively. It happens, but probably not to level that the "friendzoned" person thinks that it does. It's sort of an example of when intent really does matter - because it's inherent to the ... crime is not the right word here, but you know what I mean.
It seems like a lot of friendzoned folks feel strung along, but is that accurate or is it interfering with their assessment of their own responsibility? I don't know that I can say in the aggregate.
I've seen young examples of when a "friend" would talk to another "friend" for hours every night, and they would lean on their shoulders and slow dance and go eat out and link arms and very occasionally hold hands, and even short vacations with the two of them. Basically do every emotional cheating date thing shy of kisses and sex. But they're friends because the leader is already in a relationship so don't you dare confess feelings and ruin this beautiful and pure "friendship". But the official relationship is always on the rocks and the friend hears all about it. When I saw it it was pretty obviously leading someone on.
Huh, so I'd call that emotionally cheating, generally, but I guess it depends on if the "other" person is aware of the situation and fine with it, or being played with. Not the usual sort of thing I file into "friendzone" as that usually implies their person of interest isn't interested in them. But I see what you're talking about.
This feels more like when they promise they're leaving their partner eventually and you're really important, we swear, but we can't marry yet, because of the kids! (or whatever)
Either way it definitely falls in to the "if you stick around here you're gonna be miserable" box.
Yup, squarely in the box of misery. It was quite cunning: the abuser (due to manipulative power differential, seems apt here) was always very careful to say oh, no of course this is a pure and chaste and wonderful friendship, no shadow of cheating going on here. The mark is then lulled into a false sense of "well I'm glad my years ago confession didn't ruin our current perfectly normal and pure and chaste friendship". How much the mark was lying to themselves vs they were young and thought they had honestly moved on is opaque to me, the bystander friend.
It was fairly commonly occurring in my extended circles, unfortunately
Yeah that's definitely a shit experience. Not one I'd usually have thought of to put in this category, so I appreciate the perspective
I can't really see that as happening without consent. A person asks the person they are interested in out, they are turned down, they know the interest isn't mutual. Even if the other person manipulates them by agreeing to a few dates, at some point the person will try to get physical, get rebuffed, and know that their interest isn't returned. It is then up to them to hang around, be friends, be a patsy, or make a diplomatic exit.
Most victims of fraud or scams consent. Consent isn’t really the issue. It’s profiting from people’s beliefs.
Hell it’s a portion of how Pimps keep sex workers under control
Disagreed. I personally know women who self admittedly keep a bunch of men on a short leash to get favors from them. While it's true that these men could leave, victims of manipulation and abuse don't always do. It's one of those things where if the genders were swapped people would be outraged, but since it's men who are affected, it's their personal responsibility.
Slight disagree: even when we were young, whenever we saw awful girls doing this to guys we always called them what it was. There's some-to-none personal responsibility, but most-to-all of the blame rest on the manipulator (case by case). From a young age we were able to recognize it's not cool from either gender.
Honestly, I'd like people to try to define more concisely what they mean by "friend zone" because I don't recognize all the baggage many people seem to attribute to it, and find my understanding of it to be a very real thing.
So, here's my take on it, which at least to me holds a useful definition. Reasonable people may completely disagree.
Saying you are "in the friend zone" of someone is a short hand for saying that
That is, it describes a situation of unreciprocated want to presently explore romantic or sexual relationships between two friends who, considering only their romantic and/or sexual orientations, are compatible.
The reason they are not willing to explore a romantic or sexual relationship doesn't matter for the definition. They might just not be attracted to you specifically in that way. They might be in a committed monogamous relationship. They might be too stressed to deal with a relationship right now.
People being angry or violent over admitting to being attracted to a long-term friend and hearing it's not mutual is an unhealthy reaction to being in the friend zone, not a requirement for the descriptor to be apt.
People who mislead others with respect to whether they are in the friend zone by maliciously keeping the prospect of such a relationship on the table in order to extract some benefit (attention, gifts, services, etc.) are abusive people manipulating the perception of whether someone is in the friend zone for personal gain.
People may or may not know whether they are in the friend zone, and they may react in different ways to finding out, but unless they can control who they are attracted to, who they would like more intimate relationships with, they can't choose to leave it.
I probably think of it this way because it is very much a real thing in my life, and I have been on both sides of such relationships. I am someone who generally speaking
and as such your last paragraph is incredibly demoralizing. I don't seek to avoid rejection by getting to know people first, I seek to build the requisite foundation for me to actually desire an intimate relationship with them without leading them on about the prospects of what a relationship may entail when we've recently met.
Yes, if we have been friends for a long time, and I develop a romantic attraction, it can hurt a friendship. It can even kill it. But if I feel a torrent of emotions every time I see you and know that there's no healthy way for me to express it, then as much as it sucks to lose a friend it's not feasible for me to stay around them.
At least for me, I only ever use the phrase friendzone in the abusive/immature, intentional and unhealthy sense, from either end. Anything else is just regular okay friendship, or in a healthy non abusive way a friendship containing unrequited love.
Type A - friends
We're just friends and neither have romantic or sexual feelings for each other. Bros!
Type B - unrequited friends
If I have a crush on my friend but they don't feel that way, I'm not being friends zoned. My friend should likewise not have to worry about if they're unintentionally putting me in the friends zone, because I'm taking care of myself and maintaining proper distance. in a healthy, mature relationship, the crush will fade and we go back to being
Type Afriends. Sometimes people will date and then break up, there might be a period during which one still feels something, but if the friendship survives, eventually the lingering feelings fade and they becomeType Afriends again.Type C - upwards friendzone
If I were some sort of under socialized, immature, angry and bitter gnome, then yes I might conclude my totally innocent friend is friendzoning me, and my friendship would be a false one because my intention is never to be their friend. My friendliness is only means to obtaining emotional or physical intimacy, a step ladder to be discarded the moment I am allowed into the tower. And I would be in the wrong.
Type D - downwards friendzone
Alternatively, I could be the selfish, abusive, attention seeking monster who keeps a suitor at arm's length for my own benefit, and stealing the title of "friendship" as a cover up for this codependent trainwreck. My intention is never to be actual friends nor lovers: I am always encouraging the suitor to stand on a friendship ladder while my tower window is closed.
Type E - bidirectional friendzone
Sometimes, the stars align and a terrible person finds another terrible person. In this case, there is no friendship at all, only games and awfulness. The suitor doesn't want to be friends except as means to the beloved, and the pursued is already enjoying all the perks of being pursued and have no interest in calling this situation anything else. It becomes this unhealthy mutual parasitism.
In the original post, the author frequently, innocently, and undeservingly find themselves the object of obsession from
Type Cnon-friends. Some of them become insulted and feel their manhood threatened, and out of perseveration conclude that the author is aType Dnon-friend, and vent their anger and aggression upon the author. Often, this is projection: if I am a conniving non-friend, I am more likely to see the other person as a conniving non-friend.Sometimes, a person is just young and immature, and they slide from
Type BintoType Cbecause they never has the maturity to develop their own boundaries yet. They thought they're okay to do certain things as just friends with a crush, but when they feel lonely afterwards they discover the actions they previously consented to actually crosses their own boundaries. So their negative feelings about themselves can fester into negative feelings about their friend. They're not thoroughly terrible people per se in this case, but if unchecked by growth and self reflection, or they allow dark thoughts to materialize into action, they can become terrible people.So with all that said, I wouldn't feel demoralized. Your true friends will also project true friendship, and whether there is attraction one way or not. If attraction occurs, mature people will be able to see that there is genuine friendship and value that between them, and communicate like adults and explicate/re-adjust boundaries.
Thank you for clarifying your perspective. I don't exactly agree with everything you've said, but accepting that this is what it means to you (and maybe to the OP of this thread as well) makes the original comment significantly more reasonable to me.
Why would anyone ever ask out someone who they're not friends with? I honestly never understood that. Like, you barely even know the person, how can you be so sure that you want to commit to a romantic relationship with them??? I think so many breakups and cheating cases happen because people start dating someone before getting to know them well.
For people who ask out strangers, dating is getting to know them well. Asking someone out isn't proposing commitment, it's only proposing spending some time together one-on-one.
Ok, so why would getting to know them one on one and then committing to a relationship be good, but getting to know them by being friends and then moving to a relationship be a sign of "low confidence"?
If you're entering a friendship with the intent of turning it romantic, that could be seen as trying to leverage the person's existing emotional investment in you as a friend to improve the odds of them agreeing to explore the potential for romance. Basically relying on the sunk cost fallacy rather than being direct in your interest and taking the raw odds.
But that is a specific scenario, not applicable to e.g. people who only develop romantic interest after getting to deeply know someone as a friend.
If you know you'd ultimately like to pursue a romantic relationship but you go in trying to build a friendship first - which is what's being criticized - it's a bit of a bait-and-switch. You offered one thing, they signed on, now you're trying to do something else with it.
If you don't know if you want a friendship or a romantic relationship, you just start spending time with a person and getting to know them, and then after you've become friends you develop romantic feelings for them, that's a completely different thing.
You don't commit to a romantic relationship when you ask someone out. You go on a date. If it goes well, you go on another. You usually don't commit to anything until you've gotten to know the person at least a little bit.
I know plenty of people who cheated or broke up after dating friends. It's not a key to a perfect relationship. I also wasn't friends with my husband before we started dating. We broke up when he went away to college and before we got back together we tried to be friends and that didn't work at all. We are best friends, but we can't be just friends, and never could be.
have you used a dating app? that's basically an app that shows you a bunch of strangers that when you match you're theoretically interested enough to get to know each other through dating.
I can totally understand that you dont owe anybody a relationship, and you dont even really need a reason for it other than that its not how you feel.
But I would also maybe extend that rule to friendship. Nobody owes you a friendship. If for any reason someone decides that dont want to be your friend anymore, that ought to be allowed too. The setup of being friends is what would be most convenient for you, and the setup of dating would be most convenient for them, but neither of you are owed that.
I think especially when you are younger the concept of "dating" is a nebulous and uncertain idea. Youre not really asking to have sex, youre just trying to get some kind of validation that you are deserving of this thing called love thats supposed to be so important in life. You dont really get what attraction or infatuation means because you dont have any experience with it yet. So if you get rejected, you dont really understand how fickle love can be, and it feels like a deeply personal rejection.
I mean what even is dating when you are a child? Going to the movies and studying together? Stuff you were maybe already doing already as friends? Its pretty arbitrary of a division outside of a label. So if you get rejected that can be very confusing, especially coming from someone who ostensibly already likes you well enough, but just doesn't like you in that kind of way.
None of that is to say that you, as the object of someone elses affection, should just date that person in order to spare their feelings. But I do think there is something off about the idea that someone should be obligated to bury their own feelings just so that the other person doesnt have to deal with the complexities of those feelings.
Sometimes it sucks that you and another person have different ideals or priorities, but thats just the risk of engaging in interpersonal relationships. Sometimes they are going to be something more or less than what would be most convenient for your needs.
I think this is reflected in the earlier examples in this piece, when the kids are younger:
The first example tries to kiss her "because you're a girl and i'm a boy, shouldn't we like each other?" This seems to be the result of societal expectations that boys and girls who get along must be romantically interested, rather than any strong feelings on his part.
Her first grade friends who fight over her are almost definitely also doing it due to societal expectations that have been instilled in them. First graders don't indeoendently come up with not only romantic relationships but possessive ones a priori.
The second grade example is even more obvious, because the boy never even expressed romantic interest, but merely leaves the friendship because peers are teasing him about the prospect. The idea that a boy and girl cannot be friends but MUST be romantic interests is directly what killed this friendship
Once they get older, the rationales of the boys in question become more genuinely a reflection of their romantic attraction for OP. But this societal conditioning starts way earlier, and it doesn't go away when the feelings become real. If boys and girls cannot be friends without romantic attraction involved, then maintaining the friendship after being rejected in order to earn a romantic relationship seems much more rational. This is clearly what the boy when she was 11 did -- she's not acting entitled to his friendship here. He's choosing to bury his feelings and doesn't attempt to end the friendship. OP cannot be blamed that he nurtured his entitlement and bottled up his rage until he slapped her and called her a dumb cunt.
The only guy in the whole story who actually ends the friendship in response to being rejected is the last one, the one OP met her junior year. And in isolation, that's a healthy thing to do. But he only does this aftrr hundreds of rejections and repeated attempts to escalate even though it made her uncomfortable:
This essay is not about how guys who get rejected by girls should stay their friends despite their feelings. Rather, it's about how the expectation that every male/female relationship be a romantic (and later sexual) one poisons every one of these friendships from even the youngest age. How painful it can be when the myth that men and women can't be friends is the very thing that destroys your friendships, over and over, throughout your life, and you can't do anything but watch a friendship you've nurtured wither on the altar of romance.
Oh I think it's perfectly fair not to maintain the friendship, it's the dishonesty of maintaining the friendship for the purpose of a romantic relationship that's the problem IMO. Losing a friend sucks too, and people who find out that their friend didn't actually want to be friends are also experiencing that loss.
I do maintain that basically all youth relationships are inherently abusive because we're all shit at it. But acknowledging that means saying this behavior is in fact abusive/harmful/etc.
Eh... I completely agree with your overall point, but I think I need to push back a little at the inherently abusive/harmful angle. Certainly I'd say unskilled, or amateurish. But I think intent matters a lot, as does extending grace for everyone involved for having to get the emotional equivalent of scraped knees while learning how to ride a bike.
Relationships, even young ones, can provide joy, respite, and growth. I still (vividly!) remember how wonderful the hug of my first girlfriend felt. Her smile lifted my spirits, and her hair smelled of strawberries and hope. That we were both idiots with knowing how to communicate takes nothing away from this! In fact, I find it all the more impressive that we both were able to feel this way, even through the emotional mud.
Did we do and say things that hurt each other? Yes. Did we learn how to be better, because being hurt/hurting sucks, and we didn't like that? Yes. Was it worth it in the end, even though we eventually broke up? Yes! And I can confidently say she helped make me a better partner, and I know she feels the same, because we talked about it years later as adults. Neither of us would have been able to get to where we are now without going through the often painful learning process, but I just can't bring myself to see that as a negative. It was in pursuit of real connection.
I respect that, but I also don't think that because someone is abusive, ever, there are no good parts of a relationship, or that that person is trash. I do think intent matters in how you might look back on a situation, but in the moment, I think the impact is more important. It's sort of like how when someone says something racist - intent can matter, and so does frequency, and whether they change/apologize/etc- but the thing they said is still racist.
I'm not condemning young relationships, I don't think the vast majority of teens are truly capable of not doing abusive things. That doesn't mean they only do abusive things. And I agree it's all part of learning. But I think it's worth pointing out when they're doing abusive things so they can learn. Whether the language is abusive or toxic or whatever makes people feel better about using it.
(This is based only off my personal experiences as a teen and professional experience working with college students for about 8 years, not research.)
I would....reword that young relationships are inherently painful. I wouldn't even say harmful: they probably contain some elements of harm to self and other, but harmful feels like saying overall they're less than good, instead of being mostly great with some jagged bones in them.
Certainly not abusive, as there normally isnt and shouldn't have a weird power dynamic involved. Maybe a maturity differential? There can be abusive young love, if one person is much more knowledgeable or more skillfully manipulative than the other, but not inherently I think.
An analogy I used back then was that we're both shark and life preservers for each other.
I'm not saying they're all bad; as I said in my other comment, I think that whatever the language, it's part of the learning process and that pointing out abusive things done doesn't write off the whole relationship as trash. I don't think abuse can only happen with a power differential (but also, those differentials can look very different among teens than among adults). Most people are going to hurt each other a lot in young relationships. Whether that makes any individual relationship "good" or "bad" isn't something I'm trying to speak on.
Even in your example, I'd argue a partner who's a metaphorical "shark" is doing abusive or harmful things. Even if it is only because bumping into you with that rough skin can cut. I don't think the normalacy is relevant, lots of relationships can be abusive and be the norm in any particular culture. But my point is I'm not condemning all young love or anything, just acknowledging that there's a lot of hurting going around as you do things for the first time(s), and are developmentally still working on some of those higher brain functions and decision making skills.
Ahh, yes, thank you for the follow-up, I think that's a very apt way of putting it, re your final sentence, and I wholeheartedly agree
It's a tough time! Thank goodness I made it!
What a fun read :) it reads like teenage livejournal entries from days of yore.
And what a terrible human being, that boy who slapped the author and called her a c-word. I hope he has since reformed and think back upon that day with great shame.
I suspect that there was some toxic masculinity involved in the negative cases. A girl with an unrequited love is viewed as a pining romantic: neutral to positive. A boy with an unrequited love is a loser, a lesser than, a beta, a cuck, worthless and undeserving and a target for violence and derision. A girl rejected feels hurt, but a boy rejected feels hurt and the danger of losing social standing and worth in the Patriarchy. The fear is probably what drives the anger and violence: how dare you, a girl, put me in pain and danger, let me in turn put you in pain and danger so that I can maintain social dominance.
With regards to friend zones, it goes both ways. There are innocent boys and girls blindsided by sudden loss of friendship who bear it with a quiet, suffering grace. And then there are not so innocent boys and girls who use friendship status to control, manipulate, guilt, glean resources, improve standing, sabotage relationships and dangle hope for selfish vanities. I think folks outgrow it for the most part and become better friends and better partners.
Absolutely spot-on imo.
As for your last paragraph, though, while both those things exist, I think it's wrong to pretend they are equally common.
:') it's also possible for some of us to be innocent in some of our relationships, and not that innocent in others.... we're not uniformly kind throughout.
I hope parents of today talk to their kids early and often about kindness and friendship, and gently about how sometimes it can go wrong. Be kind, but also know that we're not all ready to be kind all the time already.....my parents probably erred too much on the side of anxiety and preached doom about all my childhood friendships with guys. But they weren't totally wrong to talk about when things can still go wrong despite 100% clarity and kindness from my side.
Do you have some thoughts about the unequally common portion of your comment response? I'd love to hear your experiences with young love and friends zoning
My experiences with young love were pretty uneventful. In high school I confessed my love to two of my close male friends (separate occasions), neither of whom shared my feelings. We remained super close friends with no problems thereafter in both cases. I didn't even really pine by any definition. I valued our existing friendship far more than any romantic potential, and my confessions more or less affected nothing.
One of these friends did come out as gay in the process of rejecting me, which was the straw that eventually broke the camel's back for my evangelical faith, but that was more or less unrelated to any romantic feelings I had. Being scared he'd suffer in Hell for eternity overwhelmed any sense of missing out I had personally. My support for him thereafter wasn't related to any lingering romance, but rather my strong platonic love for him as a friend.
As for the inequality, I just think that a substantial fraction of reports of the latter type are coming from perpetrators of the former type.
I can come at this from a man "friend-zoning" women. Now, I had no idea at the time, because I had 0 self-esteem and sense of self-worth, so this is all looking back.
One sexually harassed me;
details
offered me a soda if she could sit on my lap, grabbed my ass in a hug and very intentionally walked in on me changing.On a positive note, I had one woman who was perfectly nice and respectful. Nothing came of it, but it is nice to have some point of reference for decent treatment. Same with the one gay guy that showed any interest in me.