Two powerful and relevant quotes from wordsmith Charlie Kirk, whatever the outcome of this incident: "You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single...
Two powerful and relevant quotes from wordsmith Charlie Kirk, whatever the outcome of this incident:
"You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am—I think it's worth it.
"I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational. Nobody talks like this. They live in a complete alternate universe."
"I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational. Nobody talks like this. They live in a complete alternate universe."
I think this is in bad taste, honestly. There needs to be room for gun control, but there's a rational, humanitarian case that gun ownership should be understood primarily as right than a...
I think this is in bad taste, honestly. There needs to be room for gun control, but there's a rational, humanitarian case that gun ownership should be understood primarily as right than a privilege. There's a reason why the harshest crackdown against guns in the USSR happened under Collectivization, which directly led to the deaths of millions of people. In the context of American politics, we need to be able to talk about gun control while still recognizing a general right to bear arms. Whether Charlie Kirk productively contributed to the conversation may be another question, but I don't think taking schadenfreude is appropriate or justified.
If I thought the man ever had any principles, quoting that would be akin to saying he set an example of those principles even in death - the opposite of bad taste, as I see it. Given that I think...
If I thought the man ever had any principles, quoting that would be akin to saying he set an example of those principles even in death - the opposite of bad taste, as I see it.
Given that I think he was an amoral ghoul who would say anything to anybody if he thought it would serve his own interests, it's instead a reminder that he has, perhaps for the one time ever, been forced to stand by his words. Given that they were indeed his words, freely spoken and amplified with the full intent of swaying public opinion, I don't see highlighting that as bad taste either.
The takeaway is that he either truly believed his own death was an acceptable price to pay, or that he was a liar who would callously throw away the lives of others for something he didn't...
The takeaway is that he either truly believed his own death was an acceptable price to pay, or that he was a liar who would callously throw away the lives of others for something he didn't actually believe in and has paid the ultimate price for that. Either of those two possibilities provides powerful context for what's just happened here.
I really don't understand that second amendment argument. The argument that the second amendment protects our God given rights held a lot more weight before we were in the midst of a fascist...
I really don't understand that second amendment argument.
The argument that the second amendment protects our God given rights held a lot more weight before we were in the midst of a fascist takeover of every aspect of our country. The guns don't seem to be helping.
Well. This is not a good venue for that debate. But, fundamentally, democracy with a state monopoly on violence is precipitous. It relies on the government to act in good faith, despite the work...
Well. This is not a good venue for that debate. But, fundamentally, democracy with a state monopoly on violence is precipitous. It relies on the government to act in good faith, despite the work of governance being simplified immensely if they oppress.
But then we had about a hundred years of the people most likely to own guns being courted by white supremacist groups, and a progressive normalization of police militarization, and a lot of people who might should be armed looked at the gun owners and said "I don't want to be like that, at all". And now all the guns are on the side of the state.
At its core, politics is about power. Even the idea that personal gun ownership may never amount to meaningful rebellion against unjust government doesn't mean that by default we shouldn't have access to power unbidden by power structures. That's a matter of opinion.
Political violence begets more political violence. This isn't a match in a powder keg, its a torch, and more violence will probably follow. It is a difficult genie to stick back in the lamp.
Political violence begets more political violence. This isn't a match in a powder keg, its a torch, and more violence will probably follow. It is a difficult genie to stick back in the lamp.
I personally think you're underestimating the impact that a major right-wing infosphere operative being gunned down will have in accelerating other acts of right wing violence, but I suppose it is...
I personally think you're underestimating the impact that a major right-wing infosphere operative being gunned down will have in accelerating other acts of right wing violence, but I suppose it is impossible to know.
There was an assassination attempt on a Presidential candidate last year that was in the media for maybe two weeks before everyone moved on. Wasn’t even a factor four months later during the...
There was an assassination attempt on a Presidential candidate last year that was in the media for maybe two weeks before everyone moved on. Wasn’t even a factor four months later during the election, and there were was no noticeable increase in right wing violence. The only thing that popped up afterwards was the Health Care CEO being assassinated.
Also a Minnesota legislator was assassinated, what, three months ago? But she was a Democrat so I guess right-wing political violence doesn't count when it comes to hand-wringing...
Also a Minnesota legislator was assassinated, what, three months ago? But she was a Democrat so I guess right-wing political violence doesn't count when it comes to hand-wringing...
You see, that was an old white guy dressed up as a cop. What are they going to do, take guns away from old white guys or cops? That'd be ridiculous! What might that solve? The...
You see, that was an old white guy dressed up as a cop. What are they going to do, take guns away from old white guys or cops?
That'd be ridiculous!
What might that solve? The hundreds-if-not-thousands of officer involved cold blooded zero consequence murders?
It was definitely a factor in his camp's rallying. The number of fundie pundits who took it as evidence for the man's status as Chosen One was far from zero.
It was definitely a factor in his camp's rallying. The number of fundie pundits who took it as evidence for the man's status as Chosen One was far from zero.
We won't know what the tipping point (turning point?) is until after violence occurs, but if nothing else, there will be significant political ramifications. Trump sent the national guard to DC...
We won't know what the tipping point (turning point?) is until after violence occurs, but if nothing else, there will be significant political ramifications. Trump sent the national guard to DC after a DOGE staffer got beat up and he's already in the middle of a pressure campaign against universities. Who knows what he'll do in response, but Kirk was a pretty important figure in the maga movement.
I saw a comment elsewhere along the lines of "well the pot has to boil over at some point" and it's like you do realize we're all inside this metaphorical pot, right?
I saw a comment elsewhere along the lines of "well the pot has to boil over at some point" and it's like you do realize we're all inside this metaphorical pot, right?
As others have noted there is a lot of very graphic footage out there right now that hasn't been caught by social media filters yet. Please be careful with your own wellbeing and consider avoiding...
As others have noted there is a lot of very graphic footage out there right now that hasn't been caught by social media filters yet. Please be careful with your own wellbeing and consider avoiding social media tonight and disabling your autoplay settings for videos.
It looks to be widely spreading and being confirmed all around. Charlie seems to have died. I'm not an American so I will be largely unaffected, but I do want to express my genuine worry over the...
It looks to be widely spreading and being confirmed all around. Charlie seems to have died.
I'm not an American so I will be largely unaffected, but I do want to express my genuine worry over the possible coming crackdown. I doubt it but I sincerely hope cooler heads prevail.
This line from the article in particular throws me pretty hard, just at the absurdity Both that a lot of elected officials made it a point to get something out there within minutes despite it...
This line from the article in particular throws me pretty hard, just at the absurdity
President Donald Trump and a host of Republican elected officials offered prayers for Kirk on social media.
Both that a lot of elected officials made it a point to get something out there within minutes despite it being a non-statement, and that doing so was important enough to be part of the associated press coverage of the event.
I assume they haven't made any mention of who is suspected. Last update about it on AP is a suspect is in custody (NYT blocked me because I blocked their ad blocker blocker).
I assume they haven't made any mention of who is suspected. Last update about it on AP is a suspect is in custody (NYT blocked me because I blocked their ad blocker blocker).
The police have determined that a person who was taken into custody after the shooting was not actually the shooter, according to Scott Trotter, a university spokesman. The university had earlier said a suspect was in custody.
I am just picturing a version of this pre-social media in a small town. It would be like a newspaper article commenting "Mayor's aid seen pinning a paper to the bulletin board at the post office."...
I am just picturing a version of this pre-social media in a small town. It would be like a newspaper article commenting "Mayor's aid seen pinning a paper to the bulletin board at the post office."
A moment of silence on the House floor for conservative commentator Charlie Kirk devolved into a moment of chaos as a pair of Republicans called out Democrats.
With every lawmaker standing up in quiet observance, Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) demanded a spoken prayer.
“Silent prayers get silent results,” she said, leading to jeers from Democrats, with some shouting about a school shooting that also happened Wednesday.
Rep. Anna Paulina Luna (R-Fla.) stood up and started shouting expletives at the Democrats before Speaker Mike Johnson gaveled lawmakers down. “This is disgusting,” said a House Republican granted anonymity to react candidly to the clash.
For others like me who never heard of him, he was basically a maga influencer. article:
For others like me who never heard of him, he was basically a maga influencer. article:
Charlie Kirk was one of the most high-profile conservative activists and media personalities in the US and a trusted ally of President Donald Trump.
In 2012, at the age of 18, he co-founded Turning Point USA (TPUSA), a student organisation that aims to spread conservative ideals at liberal-leaning US colleges.
His social media and eponymous daily podcast often shared clips of him debating with students about issues such as transgender identity, climate change, faith and family values.
I saw a video that someone filmed from about 15 feet away. I would be surprised is he makes it. Either way, this is just more gasoline on the dumpster fire. Edit: apparently he made it to the...
I saw a video that someone filmed from about 15 feet away. I would be surprised is he makes it. Either way, this is just more gasoline on the dumpster fire.
Edit: apparently he made it to the hospital and is in critical condition. Also, somewhat related, another school shooting took place in Colorado right around the same time. We need a bigger dumpster.
Edit 2: now multiple sources are reporting he is dead
Shooter is supposedly in custody according to bbc, nyt. It did not look good, my personal opinion is that Kirk did not survive. He was probably shot for his political views but that is just an...
Shooter is supposedly in custody according to bbc, nyt. It did not look good, my personal opinion is that Kirk did not survive. He was probably shot for his political views but that is just an assumption I'm making.
I saw the close-up footage. It’s a direct hit on his neck (jugular vein if I had to guess). A fountain of blood spurted out of it and he immediately went limp. I’m not a medical expert but would...
I saw the close-up footage. It’s a direct hit on his neck (jugular vein if I had to guess). A fountain of blood spurted out of it and he immediately went limp. I’m not a medical expert but would be surprised if he was still alive.
BBC news is currently reporting that he's dead- Trump posted "The Great, and even Legendary, Charlie Kirk, is dead" on Truth Social (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c206zm81z4gt).
BBC news is currently reporting that he's dead- Trump posted "The Great, and even Legendary, Charlie Kirk, is dead" on Truth Social (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c206zm81z4gt).
Absolutely crazy to see Article 4 get invoked and the (likely politically motivated) assassination of a US social media influencer on my 34th birthday. I don't like Charlie Kirk but nobody...
Absolutely crazy to see Article 4 get invoked and the (likely politically motivated) assassination of a US social media influencer on my 34th birthday.
I don't like Charlie Kirk but nobody deserves to be shot dead over their political beliefs.
What I worry about more is how the Trump administration could turn this into an attack against leftists and the LGBTQ community (there was a trans active shooter a few weeks ago.)
Trump announced Kirk's death on social media, and called for all US flags to be flown at half-mast, which means it's a much bigger deal than the hundreds of kids murdered by school shooters yearly.
Well, here's Laura Loomer's response Apparently, Trump is ordering all flags to be at half staff.
What I worry about more is how the Trump administration could turn this into an attack against leftists and the LGBTQ community (there was a trans active shooter a few weeks ago.)
Similar to Brian Thompson last year... I find it hard to feel literally any sympathy whatsoever in moments like this. At the same time, I'm worried about how Trump and co. may/will react to this.
Exemplary
Similar to Brian Thompson last year... I find it hard to feel literally any sympathy whatsoever in moments like this. At the same time, I'm worried about how Trump and co. may/will react to this.
That is the current status as I'm familiar with it. My mantra remains the same regardless though. Anyone whose identity will be used to attack them - including a history of mental illness tbh -...
That is the current status as I'm familiar with it.
My mantra remains the same regardless though. Anyone whose identity will be used to attack them - including a history of mental illness tbh - will end up with that identity being attacked on a larger scale. It's shifted over the years but has been fairly consistent since 2001.
That South Park episode they did a month ago where they lampooned "masterdebating" influencers like him has suddenly aged like milk. I also detest the many calls I've seen for South Park to be...
That South Park episode they did a month ago where they lampooned "masterdebating" influencers like him has suddenly aged like milk.
I also detest the many calls I've seen for South Park to be cancelled over that. How would they have known?
I never heard of this guy before, but I'll just say that the death penalty is hardly ever justice, except possibly if he were a serial killer or something like that.
I never heard of this guy before, but I'll just say that the death penalty is hardly ever justice, except possibly if he were a serial killer or something like that.
Haven't heard of Brian Thompson? That might be because the focus was/is primarily on the individual accused of committing acts against him: Luigi Mangione
Haven't heard of Brian Thompson? That might be because the focus was/is primarily on the individual accused of committing acts against him: Luigi Mangione
Alright, I've been trying really hard to self-censor myself and restrain myself from replying to anything in this thread, out of good faith & respect to other users in the forum, but that is...
Political violence is still bad, even if it happens to the other side.
Alright, I've been trying really hard to self-censor myself and restrain myself from replying to anything in this thread, out of good faith & respect to other users in the forum, but that is simply untrue. Political violence is not always bad, and there are potentially thousands of examples in human history indicating this is the case.
Ok, specifically this political violence is bad. Charlie Kirk, for all his faults, was not a genocidal dictator. Killing him will not save thousands of lives. In fact, I strongly suspect that...
Ok, specifically this political violence is bad. Charlie Kirk, for all his faults, was not a genocidal dictator. Killing him will not save thousands of lives. In fact, I strongly suspect that killing him will save zero lives. It’s more likely that, if anything, the outcome of this sort of political assassination of talking heads will have a net result of more lives being lost.
At what comments exactly? I don't see anyone praising it. There's a lack of sympathy for someone facing consequences of his own actions, sure and quotes from Kirk himself, but what are you aghast at?
At what comments exactly?
I don't see anyone praising it. There's a lack of sympathy for someone facing consequences of his own actions, sure and quotes from Kirk himself, but what are you aghast at?
A man gets shot and the reaction is "well, he had it coming." It's not okay if the man was a teenager with a criminal history and it's not okay if the man was a pro-gun republican podcaster. I...
There's a lack of sympathy for someone facing consequences of his own actions, sure
A man gets shot and the reaction is "well, he had it coming." It's not okay if the man was a teenager with a criminal history and it's not okay if the man was a pro-gun republican podcaster.
I understand that with how polarized America is right now it's very difficult to have empathy for the other side. But that fact should be recognized with sorrow, not worn like a badge of honor.
The closest thing anyone (before your comment) said to "he had it coming" were Charlie's own quotes on gun violence. I don't think that direct quotes from the victim on how he would feel about the...
The closest thing anyone (before your comment) said to "he had it coming" were Charlie's own quotes on gun violence.
I don't think that direct quotes from the victim on how he would feel about the subject can be considered malice.
I don't even see the conversation in this thread being about (or particularly impacted by) polarisation, really. It's about his own actions and positions, more than anything. Person who has harmed...
I don't even see the conversation in this thread being about (or particularly impacted by) polarisation, really. It's about his own actions and positions, more than anything.
Person who has harmed many others finally succumbs to that same harm himself. That's a small sliver of justice done, even by dangerous and probably counterproductive means. And we're giving him as much or more sympathy as he gave others in the same situation - others who actually were innocent victims, rather than victims guilty of causing the very situation they came to harm by.
Do you really draw a distinction between "facing the consequences of his own actions" (your words) and "had it coming" (my words)? Is your position seriously that the former is a reasonable...
Do you really draw a distinction between "facing the consequences of his own actions" (your words) and "had it coming" (my words)? Is your position seriously that the former is a reasonable paraphrase and the latter an indefensible falsehood? Obviously we've completely lost the plot here but that's such a surprising stance that I can't help but get pulled into this.
Yes, I do. Lack of sympathy for the result of the actions or statements one has made is nowhere close to wishing those results upon someone. “I think empathy is a made up New Age term that does a...
Yes, I do.
Lack of sympathy for the result of the actions or statements one has made is nowhere close to wishing those results upon someone.
“I think empathy is a made up New Age term that does a lot of damage”
I think the implication that getting shot in the neck is an acceptable “consequence” for being an asshole is not a great thing. Also, there’s at least one comment in this very thread wishing that...
I think the implication that getting shot in the neck is an acceptable “consequence” for being an asshole is not a great thing.
Also, there’s at least one comment in this very thread wishing that the shooter had better aim.
For being an asshole? No. Was Charlie Kirk merely an asshole? No. Did he make multiple statements that reiterated that certain laws in the US are worth the violence they beget? Yes. Which was made...
For being an asshole? No.
Was Charlie Kirk merely an asshole? No.
Did he make multiple statements that reiterated that certain laws in the US are worth the violence they beget? Yes.
Also, there’s at least one comment in this very thread wishing that the shooter had better aim.
I see literally nobody saying otherwise? Top comment is basically “you reap what you sow”, the next two are explicitly concerned about escalating political violence, and the other couple are about...
I see literally nobody saying otherwise? Top comment is basically “you reap what you sow”, the next two are explicitly concerned about escalating political violence, and the other couple are about the facts and reaction. What’s concerning you in particular?
Some political violence is good. Never ideal, but it can be just. This?...Kirk has always been a ridiculous rabblerouser. Cruel, and hateful, and callous, and hypocritical, but probably not...
Some political violence is good. Never ideal, but it can be just.
This?...Kirk has always been a ridiculous rabblerouser. Cruel, and hateful, and callous, and hypocritical, but probably not "worthy" of assassination. However any of us feel though, it's a sign of things to come.
In this era, I don't think any rabble rouser qualifies as ridiculous, regardless of how ignorant or anti intellectual/ anti science they might be. Repeated public hate speech is one of the...
In this era, I don't think any rabble rouser qualifies as ridiculous, regardless of how ignorant or anti intellectual/ anti science they might be.
Repeated public hate speech is one of the stepping stones to genocide. Social media allowing hate speech has been a direct cause of pogroms and riots around the world.
I'm afraid of what comes next and I don't support violence. I just reacted to your comment about ridiculousness because the anti intellectuals are deadly serious about their beliefs.
No, that's fair. But they are ridiculous regardless. Losing sight of this is how people begin to tolerate their hatred. Beside that, the logic of fascism is built on a self-image of power. He...
No, that's fair. But they are ridiculous regardless. Losing sight of this is how people begin to tolerate their hatred. Beside that, the logic of fascism is built on a self-image of power. He deserved to be mocked mercilessly and ignored beside that, and I'm pulling the μολὼν λαβέ card should anyone defend his ideas one way or another.
Considering I've seen legitimate "Luigi is a hero" stuff being upvoted on Tildes, I'm completely not surprised. It really is not different from Reddit at this point, which I guess makes sense...
Considering I've seen legitimate "Luigi is a hero" stuff being upvoted on Tildes, I'm completely not surprised. It really is not different from Reddit at this point, which I guess makes sense considering where the users came from.
Just FYI I'm rate limited for whatever reason (another phenomenal aspect of this website...) and cannot respond.
Surely if you're going to say "ugh, reddit" with a metaphorical eye roll, it's better to engage in the kind of conversation you want to see rather than criticise? There are a lot of very nuanced...
Surely if you're going to say "ugh, reddit" with a metaphorical eye roll, it's better to engage in the kind of conversation you want to see rather than criticise? There are a lot of very nuanced things to discuss here around violence, ethics, and morality and this is one of the very few places I trust that conversation can actually happen without going too far off the rails.
For what it's worth, while I wouldn't call Luigi a hero, I would say that killing someone who has caused the unnecessary deaths of many others is morally justified - albeit very, very likely to backfire from a practical perspective.
Two powerful and relevant quotes from wordsmith Charlie Kirk, whatever the outcome of this incident:
"You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. That is nonsense. It's drivel. But I am—I think it's worth it.
"I think it's worth to have a cost of, unfortunately, some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given rights. That is a prudent deal. It is rational. Nobody talks like this. They live in a complete alternate universe."
https://www.mediamatters.org/charlie-kirk/charlie-kirk-its-worth-have-cost-unfortunately-some-gun-deaths-every-single-year-so-we
I think this is in bad taste, honestly. There needs to be room for gun control, but there's a rational, humanitarian case that gun ownership should be understood primarily as right than a privilege. There's a reason why the harshest crackdown against guns in the USSR happened under Collectivization, which directly led to the deaths of millions of people. In the context of American politics, we need to be able to talk about gun control while still recognizing a general right to bear arms. Whether Charlie Kirk productively contributed to the conversation may be another question, but I don't think taking schadenfreude is appropriate or justified.
If I thought the man ever had any principles, quoting that would be akin to saying he set an example of those principles even in death - the opposite of bad taste, as I see it.
Given that I think he was an amoral ghoul who would say anything to anybody if he thought it would serve his own interests, it's instead a reminder that he has, perhaps for the one time ever, been forced to stand by his words. Given that they were indeed his words, freely spoken and amplified with the full intent of swaying public opinion, I don't see highlighting that as bad taste either.
What's the takeaway, though? That gun ownership should not be understood to be a right, and anyone who thinks it should is a fool?
The takeaway is that he either truly believed his own death was an acceptable price to pay, or that he was a liar who would callously throw away the lives of others for something he didn't actually believe in and has paid the ultimate price for that. Either of those two possibilities provides powerful context for what's just happened here.
I really don't understand that second amendment argument.
The argument that the second amendment protects our God given rights held a lot more weight before we were in the midst of a fascist takeover of every aspect of our country. The guns don't seem to be helping.
Well. This is not a good venue for that debate. But, fundamentally, democracy with a state monopoly on violence is precipitous. It relies on the government to act in good faith, despite the work of governance being simplified immensely if they oppress.
But then we had about a hundred years of the people most likely to own guns being courted by white supremacist groups, and a progressive normalization of police militarization, and a lot of people who might should be armed looked at the gun owners and said "I don't want to be like that, at all". And now all the guns are on the side of the state.
At its core, politics is about power. Even the idea that personal gun ownership may never amount to meaningful rebellion against unjust government doesn't mean that by default we shouldn't have access to power unbidden by power structures. That's a matter of opinion.
Political violence begets more political violence. This isn't a match in a powder keg, its a torch, and more violence will probably follow. It is a difficult genie to stick back in the lamp.
The torch was thrown in there a long time ago, this is only like the 15th most notable politically charged violent event this year.
I personally think you're underestimating the impact that a major right-wing infosphere operative being gunned down will have in accelerating other acts of right wing violence, but I suppose it is impossible to know.
There was an assassination attempt on a Presidential candidate last year that was in the media for maybe two weeks before everyone moved on. Wasn’t even a factor four months later during the election, and there were was no noticeable increase in right wing violence. The only thing that popped up afterwards was the Health Care CEO being assassinated.
Also a Minnesota legislator was assassinated, what, three months ago? But she was a Democrat so I guess right-wing political violence doesn't count when it comes to hand-wringing...
You see, that was an old white guy dressed up as a cop. What are they going to do, take guns away from old white guys or cops?
That'd be ridiculous!
What might that solve? The hundreds-if-not-thousands of officer involved cold blooded zero consequence murders?
How do you stop a "good guy" with a gun? /s
Ask Nepal.
That's debatable.
It was definitely a factor in his camp's rallying. The number of fundie pundits who took it as evidence for the man's status as Chosen One was far from zero.
We won't know what the tipping point (turning point?) is until after violence occurs, but if nothing else, there will be significant political ramifications. Trump sent the national guard to DC after a DOGE staffer got beat up and he's already in the middle of a pressure campaign against universities. Who knows what he'll do in response, but Kirk was a pretty important figure in the maga movement.
I hope you're right!
I saw a comment elsewhere along the lines of "well the pot has to boil over at some point" and it's like you do realize we're all inside this metaphorical pot, right?
As others have noted there is a lot of very graphic footage out there right now that hasn't been caught by social media filters yet. Please be careful with your own wellbeing and consider avoiding social media tonight and disabling your autoplay settings for videos.
Headline update: Conservative activist Charlie Kirk dies after being shot at Utah college event
It looks to be widely spreading and being confirmed all around. Charlie seems to have died.
I'm not an American so I will be largely unaffected, but I do want to express my genuine worry over the possible coming crackdown. I doubt it but I sincerely hope cooler heads prevail.
This line from the article in particular throws me pretty hard, just at the absurdity
Both that a lot of elected officials made it a point to get something out there within minutes despite it being a non-statement, and that doing so was important enough to be part of the associated press coverage of the event.
Video of the alleged shooter is an old white man. What are they going to say "Take all the guns away from... [checks notes] ...old white men?"
Newest info (per NYT) is that that man is not the shooter.
I assume they haven't made any mention of who is suspected. Last update about it on AP is a suspect is in custody (NYT blocked me because I blocked their ad blocker blocker).
Here is what NYT has to say:
I am just picturing a version of this pre-social media in a small town. It would be like a newspaper article commenting "Mayor's aid seen pinning a paper to the bulletin board at the post office."
I don't know, maybe I am the absurd one.
Yeesh.
source
Classiest politicians in the biz.
For others like me who never heard of him, he was basically a maga influencer. article:
I hope we have more information soon. Is Kirk alive? Why was he shot? What happened to the shooter?
I saw a video that someone filmed from about 15 feet away. I would be surprised is he makes it. Either way, this is just more gasoline on the dumpster fire.
Edit: apparently he made it to the hospital and is in critical condition. Also, somewhat related, another school shooting took place in Colorado right around the same time. We need a bigger dumpster.
Edit 2: now multiple sources are reporting he is dead
more info (gory)
I’ve seen footage of the event that I won’t share here, he got shot through the neck and blood started pouring out
Trump says he's dead.
Shooter is supposedly in custody according to bbc, nyt. It did not look good, my personal opinion is that Kirk did not survive. He was probably shot for his political views but that is just an assumption I'm making.
I saw the close-up footage. It’s a direct hit on his neck (jugular vein if I had to guess). A fountain of blood spurted out of it and he immediately went limp. I’m not a medical expert but would be surprised if he was still alive.
Updates say he's in critical condition. Whether or not he survives is the question at this point.
Deseret news is reporting that Charlie Kirk is dead, according to Utah Speaker Mike Schultz
You got a link? I can't find this news.
BBC news is currently reporting that he's dead- Trump posted "The Great, and even Legendary, Charlie Kirk, is dead" on Truth Social (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c206zm81z4gt).
Absolutely crazy to see Article 4 get invoked and the (likely politically motivated) assassination of a US social media influencer on my 34th birthday.
I don't like Charlie Kirk but nobody deserves to be shot dead over their political beliefs.
What I worry about more is how the Trump administration could turn this into an attack against leftists and the LGBTQ community (there was a trans active shooter a few weeks ago.)
Trump announced Kirk's death on social media, and called for all US flags to be flown at half-mast, which means it's a much bigger deal than the hundreds of kids murdered by school shooters yearly.
Well, here's Laura Loomer's response
Apparently, Trump is ordering all flags to be at half staff.
Similar to Brian Thompson last year... I find it hard to feel literally any sympathy whatsoever in moments like this. At the same time, I'm worried about how Trump and co. may/will react to this.
My mantra in situations like this is approximately
"Don't be trans, don't be brown, don't be queer, don't be Muslim"
Old white guy.edit: after refreshing a news feed, it seems like the suspect is not actually in custody as of 5:24pm estThat is the current status as I'm familiar with it.
My mantra remains the same regardless though. Anyone whose identity will be used to attack them - including a history of mental illness tbh - will end up with that identity being attacked on a larger scale. It's shifted over the years but has been fairly consistent since 2001.
That South Park episode they did a month ago where they lampooned "masterdebating" influencers like him has suddenly aged like milk.
I also detest the many calls I've seen for South Park to be cancelled over that. How would they have known?
I never heard of this guy before, but I'll just say that the death penalty is hardly ever justice, except possibly if he were a serial killer or something like that.
Haven't heard of Brian Thompson? That might be because the focus was/is primarily on the individual accused of committing acts against him: Luigi Mangione
No, I meant Charlie Kirk.
I am aghast at some of these comments. Political violence is still bad, even if it happens to the other side.
Alright, I've been trying really hard to self-censor myself and restrain myself from replying to anything in this thread, out of good faith & respect to other users in the forum, but that is simply untrue. Political violence is not always bad, and there are potentially thousands of examples in human history indicating this is the case.
Ok, specifically this political violence is bad. Charlie Kirk, for all his faults, was not a genocidal dictator. Killing him will not save thousands of lives. In fact, I strongly suspect that killing him will save zero lives. It’s more likely that, if anything, the outcome of this sort of political assassination of talking heads will have a net result of more lives being lost.
At what comments exactly?
I don't see anyone praising it. There's a lack of sympathy for someone facing consequences of his own actions, sure and quotes from Kirk himself, but what are you aghast at?
A man gets shot and the reaction is "well, he had it coming." It's not okay if the man was a teenager with a criminal history and it's not okay if the man was a pro-gun republican podcaster.
I understand that with how polarized America is right now it's very difficult to have empathy for the other side. But that fact should be recognized with sorrow, not worn like a badge of honor.
The closest thing anyone (before your comment) said to "he had it coming" were Charlie's own quotes on gun violence.
I don't think that direct quotes from the victim on how he would feel about the subject can be considered malice.
I don't even see the conversation in this thread being about (or particularly impacted by) polarisation, really. It's about his own actions and positions, more than anything.
Person who has harmed many others finally succumbs to that same harm himself. That's a small sliver of justice done, even by dangerous and probably counterproductive means. And we're giving him as much or more sympathy as he gave others in the same situation - others who actually were innocent victims, rather than victims guilty of causing the very situation they came to harm by.
No one said he had it coming, don't go changing the words of others to fit your narrative.
We're clearly not going to have a productive conversation, so never mind.
Well, when you start it from an indefensible falsehood, what do you expect to accomplish?
Do you really draw a distinction between "facing the consequences of his own actions" (your words) and "had it coming" (my words)? Is your position seriously that the former is a reasonable paraphrase and the latter an indefensible falsehood? Obviously we've completely lost the plot here but that's such a surprising stance that I can't help but get pulled into this.
Yes, I do.
Lack of sympathy for the result of the actions or statements one has made is nowhere close to wishing those results upon someone.
“I think empathy is a made up New Age term that does a lot of damage”
I think the implication that getting shot in the neck is an acceptable “consequence” for being an asshole is not a great thing.
Also, there’s at least one comment in this very thread wishing that the shooter had better aim.
For being an asshole? No.
Was Charlie Kirk merely an asshole? No.
Did he make multiple statements that reiterated that certain laws in the US are worth the violence they beget? Yes.
Which was made well after my comment above.
And has been deleted now
As I predicted it would be.
Person advocating for political violence victim of political violence. My neck of the world we call that karma.
I see literally nobody saying otherwise? Top comment is basically “you reap what you sow”, the next two are explicitly concerned about escalating political violence, and the other couple are about the facts and reaction. What’s concerning you in particular?
Some political violence is good. Never ideal, but it can be just.
This?...Kirk has always been a ridiculous rabblerouser. Cruel, and hateful, and callous, and hypocritical, but probably not "worthy" of assassination. However any of us feel though, it's a sign of things to come.
In this era, I don't think any rabble rouser qualifies as ridiculous, regardless of how ignorant or anti intellectual/ anti science they might be.
Repeated public hate speech is one of the stepping stones to genocide. Social media allowing hate speech has been a direct cause of pogroms and riots around the world.
I'm afraid of what comes next and I don't support violence. I just reacted to your comment about ridiculousness because the anti intellectuals are deadly serious about their beliefs.
No, that's fair. But they are ridiculous regardless. Losing sight of this is how people begin to tolerate their hatred. Beside that, the logic of fascism is built on a self-image of power. He deserved to be mocked mercilessly and ignored beside that, and I'm pulling the μολὼν λαβέ card should anyone defend his ideas one way or another.
I learned of Leonidas in my youth, but not by studying greek. Hopefully it won't come to that but it plausibly might.
Considering I've seen legitimate "Luigi is a hero" stuff being upvoted on Tildes, I'm completely not surprised. It really is not different from Reddit at this point, which I guess makes sense considering where the users came from.
Just FYI I'm rate limited for whatever reason (another phenomenal aspect of this website...) and cannot respond.
Surely if you're going to say "ugh, reddit" with a metaphorical eye roll, it's better to engage in the kind of conversation you want to see rather than criticise? There are a lot of very nuanced things to discuss here around violence, ethics, and morality and this is one of the very few places I trust that conversation can actually happen without going too far off the rails.
For what it's worth, while I wouldn't call Luigi a hero, I would say that killing someone who has caused the unnecessary deaths of many others is morally justified - albeit very, very likely to backfire from a practical perspective.
Would the assassination of say Putin be a bad thing?