I hate alcohol. Totally hate it.
Probably more accurately, I hate that alcohol is treated so lightly in our culture. Its an extremely dangerous drug, yet we rarely acknowledge that. The most you'll hear is "Please drink responsibly" as if that has any influence at all.
What's disgusting to me personally is how it affects families. My bio kids and extended family are not drinkers, a little bit socially but my kids grew up in a 100% dry and sober house. But my wife's kids were the victims, and I use that word accurately, of an alcoholic grandfather who passed along his curse to their alcoholic father. He was an alcoholic who turned into an abusive man who spread his misery and chaos to his whole family. It directly killed his parents and two of his siblings and the remaining two are living miserable lives as alcohol has killed their relationships with their loved ones.
My wife's ex traumatized my stepkids and my wife in ways that are hard to comprehend - it's disgusting unless you understand what a demon that alcohol can be and how much it can f*** up your life and the lives of everyone around you. And then, after causing years of chaos and misery, he took his own life and added even more to their trauma.
Just recently, one of my stepkids realized that they too are an alcoholic. What the hell. That's now the third generation. At least they recognized it "early" because they're not yet in a long term relationship and they don't have kids (thank god) so it hasn't had a chance to completely f*** up their entire future family's life but its definitely caused them significant grief already. I only hope and pray they stick with their new commitment to stop drinking so this curse doesn't pass on to the fourth generation. They've gone to an AA meeting, heard other people's stories and seem to realize how bad it could get, as if their own father's story wasn't enough.
F*** alcohol. Seriously, it just makes me so angry how glibly it's treated. It ruins SO many people's lives, causes SO much pain and yet we live in a society that constantly pushes the message if you want to have a good time you should have a drink. Or two. Just get a little tipsy, why not?.... no one mentions how alcohol can not only totally screw over your entire life but also that of people three generations into the future. Or how millions of people are silently living with alcohol abuse in their families hoping and praying that it doesnt kill someone they love.
Ug. Just. Don't. Drink.
I think there’s a lot of necessary nuance that is missing from the “please drink responsibly” messaging you’re criticizing and also from your own teetotaler message. The fact is, not all people are the same. That’s just a biological reality of our human condition. Some people are perfectly capable of drinking in moderation, and they enjoy the effects of a drink or two with no drawbacks. Other people are predisposed to addiction or alcohol-related health risks, and they absolutely need to stay far away from it. I think both conditions can be simultaneously true and should be equally respected.
I don’t know how to do that from a policy perspective. The law needs to recognize the fundamental equality of all people, even in cases like this where we are truly unequal. A blanket prohibition is unfair and creates destructive unintended consequences as we have seen when it was tried in the past.
I wish there was a reliable way for people to screen themselves and determine whether alcohol is a safe choice for them, but even if there was I doubt many would bother to do it voluntarily. Making it compulsory would come with its own problems. And of course trying to prohibit sale or consumption of alcohol to those who failed the screening process would be discriminatory and ineffective besides.
I’d love to hear ideas for a considered, balanced solution that empowers people of all dispositions to make safe choices without infringing on their personal autonomy or liberty.
A good thing that is happening is having the education and examples of what alcohol abuse does. The availability of very tasty non-alcoholics is also very helpful, combined with a general rising acceptance of non-drinkers.
This is obviously purely subjective, but I've definitely noticed a very good trend of people going "ok, want a soda?" when alcohol is refused at events. And none of the ribbing and pressure that used to happen "just have a beer with us, it's fine" or other more targeted lines
There is no replicated enough study showing substance abuse disorders are mostly due to genetics. Genetics certainly do play a role, but statistically speaking, they don't explain most of the variation seen.
Edit: Here are two meta-analysis findings, which are the meta statistical examinations of multiple research articles.
2015 meta-analysis about alcohol use disorders that suggests 0.49 heritability (49%) with a 95% confidence interval (CI) of 0.43-0.53
2002 meta-analysis about alcohol use disorder suggesting 0.15 heritability for male heavy abusers
It seems like those studies do show a large genetic component? In particular, 50% heritable seems very high, as these things go.
Though of course heritability isn’t destiny - it doesn’t tell us anything about hard it is to correct for a condition. And biological conditions can be hard to change even if they’re not genetic.
I'm not sure I agree with this. It's possible to go years having a perfectly fine relationship with alcohol, and then a traumatic event or stressors or whatever else changes that relationship to be toxic. It's not like you can go grab an alcoholism test and figure out which type you are. I tend to believe that anyone could fall into the trap given the right conditions.
Edit: I want to make it clear that I agree with the rest of your suggestion... Just this one part didn't sit right with me.
I think there actually are genetic markers for alcohol predisposition:
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohols-effects-health/alcohol-use-disorder/genetics-alcohol-use-disorder
But, of course these are not 100% causal AND you can still abuse alcohol without these genes.
The closest to a screen that I've been able to come up with in my life is to inform everyone that I trust that if they ever have the slightest concern about my relationship with alcohol, to let me know, and I will stop drinking immediately forever. My husband is aware of this and I've asked him to help me enforce this on myself if it ever becomes necessary. This is in place because my parents are fairly destructive alcoholics. So far my relationship with alcohol hasn't caused any problems in my own life.
What would you say to a compulsory procedure for people that are repeatedly harmful to others when drunk (drunk drivers, abusers, etc.) that would make them physically incapable of being drunk? This may be science fiction, but I think it would be interesting as a point of discussion. Like chemical castration but for alcoholics. It’s a loss of autonomy, but so is prison.
I have heard of chemicals that, when administered during a binging session, cause the human body to associate alcohol with violent nausea and can force someone to detox.
I’m really not a fan of invasive procedures being compulsory, I don’t think any good reason is enough to justify violating someone’s self-ownership. The body is sacrosanct. History is checkered with examples (you mentioned chemical castration) of eugenics movements and experimentation on unwitting subjects… I can’t even get behind forced vaccinations, and I’m fully pro-vax and understand the reasoning behind it.
Now I could imagine some sort of law blocking sale of alcohol to previous offenders. Sort of like how drivers can get their licenses suspended or revoked. The exact mechanism of that would need to be determined carefully to avoid a privacy boondoggle or unreasonable burden on vendors. Anyway, in such a world, the procedure you described could be offered to offenders as a voluntary alternative to losing purchase privileges. I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to that, but the devil’s in the details.
There is a drug in the USA, called Naltrexone, that works by trying to remove the positive associations one has from drinking alcohol. The user takes the drug before drinking (usually at the start of their day), and subsequently should not feel pleasure or pleasurable effects from drinking, and thus reduce the desire to drink in the future.
An obvious problem to that, is that the user has to make the decision to take the drug. And if you are a person experience alcohol substance use disorder, you may not want to take the drug in the first place, so it becomes a failure point of the system.
There is an injectable version of the drug called Vivitrol. It lasts longer once in the system (3 months ?), but has the similar problem of requiring the user to be self aware of their problem AND wanting to change their AUD behaviors via taking the drugs. And who amongst us really wants to restrain ourselves from something that makes us feel good/better/alleviated ?
Finally, there is the medication you’re talking about, Disulfram. And it does make the user nauseated if taken while/before drinking. But has similar problems to above.
I wish there was an easy solution, but it feels like so much of it puts a heavy burden on the person suffering from AUD.
I am going to jump in and say again that naltrexone saved my life. I still drink, but way less than what I used to.
You take the drug one hour before drinking and that's it. In the beginning the side effects sucks a little, so I started with 1/4 and worked my way to a pill.
But this is for life if you don't stop drinking completely. You always have to take the pill 1hr before drinking. If not, the pathways starts forming back again.
Now after two years on this, I just take half before drinking. It works the same.
Sometimes I still drink a lot when with friends, but I don't get the urge to drink like I had.
Before this, I would go out to drink and get shitfaced 3 or 4 nights per week.
Now I drink just one day on weekends.
My liver tests are always normal now.
I am a doctor and I have also never been a drinker. I feel your pain. I have seen so much misery brought on by alcohol, both in internal damage to the body and physical trauma (drunk driving and related events). It makes me sick that alcohol is treated the way that it is in modern culture and how extensively it is advertised to all age groups. The "Please drink responsibly" is such a cop-out. I do understand the boost it has given to society as a whole over the ages, inspiring trade, agreements, sociality, etc. but I truly think at this point we would all be better off without it. Again, I say this as a non-drinker, but it makes me sick how much damage it has done to families and individuals and how we as a society continue to tolerate because "it gives me the warm fluffies and the courage to be social". We have prescription medication and therapy to help with anxiety and there's no need to go to an under-regulated substance plastered all over our brain by advertising from corporations who don't care about us. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I've seen some things.
Your feelings are of course legitimate, but I would point out that your profession exposes you to the worst of the alcohol uses. There is a very heavy sampling bias in your personal experience of people using alcohol because of that. Statistically speaking, even in US where alcohol is heavily advertized (read: propagandized), most alcohol users don't have an alcohol use disorder.
About the medication part. As someone who used to enjoy the occasional drink (before unrelated health problems that caused me to stop), I'd say that vast majority of the time I drank because I was having fun with my friends. There was no foul play for anyone, and it simply just elevated our mood, made the night more enjoyable. I sometimes drank when I was in a low mood, but it was very rare and I was a young adult, and as with many young adults I learned by making mistakes.
I'm not saying these to affirm the status quo, by the way, and the people who have suffered at the hand of alcohol, directly or indirectly, definitely deserve to get a say. I've suffered too, and just the other day I was telling someone I would be fine with people close to me not drinking ever again. We also probably live in very different countries, so there is some variation because of that too. Despite this, I'd still say that people reacting heavily emotionally to traumatic or distressing events isn't a good way to go about having this discussion. There is a lot of heavily emotional and negative language in this topic, which also include black-or-white statements, which really suggests to me that a lot of people are jumping to conclusions because of heavily negative experiences.
Also aside from the topic at hand, I hope you are taking care of your mental health. Your profession is very hard, and you have my sympathies.
I try to think like this broadly but I have a hard time knowing how to apply it sometimes. Like I try to be responsible about it because it can feel reckless to express your opinion based on your experiences when those experiences are the outlier. I initially deleted a message I was going to post here because I know I'm probably the exception but on the other hand, if 99 people have one experience and 1 person had another experience, isn't it useful to see all of those experiences rather than the 1 person who has such experience suppressing it, which changes whether something looks nearly perfect or flawless if there's literally not even a single contrasting experience expressed.
I think I have a bit of resentment for the medical field or apparatus surrounding it (as well as how society views/treats that field), so when I read that a doctor has a perspective that promotes gatekeeping something behind their credentials, I roll my eyes because it's basically to me along the lines of "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail", and gatekeeping everything behind medical licenses (through prescriptions) is the easy solution to anything that is possibly abused. Mind you, I get it, the flipside is that if you do nothing, then people do abuse substances, use the wrong substances to treat themselves etc. and people get harmed or killed because of it. But people get harmed by things being gatekept behind service they have no access to or being forced to interact with a service in a way that is detrimental to them in order to get what they need.
That alone isn't my grudge, the psychiatric field is actually more where it gets personal to me, but those experiences have in some cases taken place in ordinary healthcare facilities.
A recent example of something that highlights the flaws in the system is that I recently had to go to a place to get a prescription for something that I already knew I needed, because there was an OTC variant that I had taken and gotten results from but the prescription variant is generally superior (and cheaper somehow). I wasn't supposed to pay for this visit because I have no income, and then later I did a video visit with the same RN to get the prescription renewed, which I ended up getting billed for that visit anyhow. I transferred my prescription to Amazon because it was cheaper than other places I looked at, and then I cancelled my next video visit because I wasn't going to risk getting billed again. Funny enough, Amazon had renewed the prescription for me without ever talking to me, they literally know nothing about me and they just extended how many refills I got for this medication. And I know it was them because it says who prescribed it and it's different than the initial bottles I got.
So basically, I was forced to navigate a system where I ended up getting billed for someone else to give me permission to get the medication I already knew I needed, then in a different circumstance I was given the medication with no middleman intervention whatsoever almost certainly because there's little risk of abuse or any serious problems with it (plus profits, obviously Amazon gets my money if they keep giving me more refills and I keep buying them).
I had gone looking through various online portals and it's kind of pathetically hilarious how many of them work. You can do video calls with a doctor or such, but many of the websites have you look through what kind of things can be treated in these video calls and they straight up tell you exactly what to say in the video call to get the medication you want. It's a complete sham. You just follow the basic script they lay out, and you get the prescription, and the credentialed doctor or nurse or whoever gets to pocket money to prescribe you something that they did absolutely nothing for.
I'm not pretending like I can do my own research and always come to better conclusions than a medical professional that has years of schooling and experience, I'm not intending to disrespect the knowledge or experience there, but there's likely very few scenarios where I'm ever going to benefit from it. If I ever have serious enough health complications, I just would rather be put out of my misery, which ironically is the one thing none of them can actually help with.
Therapy and anxiety medication don't really accomplish the same thing as alcohol. Anti-anxiety medication is also not without drawbacks, and while those can be managed and are not a reason to avoid seeking it, it does mean that it's not a great fit for everyone who wants effects as mild and infrequent as alcohol can provide. Also, a big draw of alcohol is how it can be a departure from the norm, which is not how anti-anxiety medication is intended to be used.
I’ve always assumed that most (PCP/GP) doctors are just constantly overloaded with patients who would be without any medical issues if they could simply stop drinking alcohol. I’m no hypochondriac and I always get the impression when I go in to have a small issue evaluated that the doctor is almost frustrated that someone so healthy thinks they need medical attention. They must be constantly begging people to at least do the bare minimum to care for their health.
I think for quite a few of these people you have to assume that if the alcohol wasn’t present they would be engaged in some other socially acceptable form of self-destruction instead, from problem gambling to food addiction. Those might have less deleterious effects on them, but there’s a reason AA programs have a concept of a “dry drunk.” The underlying character issues that lead to the alcoholism are the root cause that needs to be resolved.
I think if you are being seen for an annual checkup, or for an acute issue that the doctor can/should do something about, they aren't going to be frustrated with you.
If you go in after having a cold for 4 days, yes, they will likely be a little frustrated, because barring severe symptoms all they can really do is say rest, stay hydrated, take OTC medications, and if your symptoms don't start improving in 7-10 days come back. On the other hand, if you come in after 14 days of no improvement, they will probably order some tests or look a little deeper because you've already given the cold time to run its course.
Doctor's don't want you coming in with every sneeze, but they also don't want you wandering around with pneumonia for 3 weeks before giving up and going in.
Edit: to your point about addiction induced visits. The doctors that probably bear the brunt of that are ER docs. Hard core addicts don't go in for a lot of office visits relative to the number that show up in the ER in crisis.
Thank you. I appreciate hearing that from a professional's perspective. And I wholeheartedly agree.
Im also aware that those who have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, are very common. There are undoubtedly some on Tildes and its difficult for them to hear how things can turn out. "I can handle it" is the most common mental gymnastic of those who have not come to the point of acknowledging that they can't. And that sometimes takes years, even decades so I understand those who think my point of view is a little extreme.
To clarify - I do have a VERY occasional drink. But I can honestly say it averages about one drink a month, usually a glass of wine or a beer when out for a nice supper with my wife. I've never been drunk, so its not like I dont think some people cant handle liquor, its that I just dont think its worth the risk for many people. My wife's ex said he knew he was going to have a problem with alcohol from the moment he had his first drink at 14. Thats when he should have stopped and saved himself and his family a lifetime of misery.
Meh.
You're speaking from a place of trauma so nuance isn't going to be a thing here. I'm not even a drinker but even I can see through to the pain speaking here. I'd suggest maybe speak to a professional, get the kids in to therapy as well and maybe consider family therapy as well.
The history of humanity is a history of alcohol, abolition of intoxicating substances never works and in fact does more harm. Moderation and healthy patterns have to be taught and demonstrated, that's all. But that's neither here nor there, that's not what your post is about.
Your post is a cry for help, which no one here can provide. Again, get the kids into therapy if they're not, get yourself in there with them from time to time and heal. Don't blame an inanimate object for the actions of a person. I wish you a good life and better times friend.
Respectfully, a response of "Meh" to someone else's opinion on alcohol, whether or not it's a "cry for help" or simply an opinion that's different than yours, is dismissive at best. Condescending is probably a better adjective.
I can relate to many of the OP's points to a much less severe level, but they still mostly ring true to me. Everyone's experience with alcohol will be different, but we objectively know of alcohol-related illness, physical abuse, automobile accidents/deaths, etc. that are directly caused by alcohol.
Addiction is multi-faceted and alcoholism can take hold even in the most "immune" of individuals. Of course the people involved should be blamed for their direct actions, but there's a bigger picture -- alcohol -- which is systemically making said direct actions more likely to occur.
Thanks, And yes I wrote that in a day of frustration which is born from watching my wife go through the pain of trying to support her child AGAIN, after years of this emotional turmoil. Im angry with her deceased ex too. That man screwed over his kids SO badly and if there's one thing I deeply believe is that you protect and care for your kids at all costs. He most definitely did not and while I understand that 'hurt people hurt people' I also believe that there comes a point in your mid life where you can no longer use childhood trauma as an excuse. He never got to that point and decided to rather check out. It was a cowardly act from a weak man. Maybe some day I will forgive him for his weakness and abuse but that day isnt here yet.
My stepkid is deeply damaged and is already in therapy. We've been to AlAnon and we'll go again if we need to. The other kids are doing ok, at least externally - one isn't even a drinker and the other seems to have stable relationships and a good career and able to drink moderately. But we have ALL been emotionally spent by the emotional outbursts, the constant chaos, the constant need for support. There will be healing as things go forward and we're not opposed to seeking professional help if need be. For now, my 'vent' here on Tildes has been helpful for me and I appreciate the feedback and constructive comments.
No worries, we all need to vent from time to time. Hell even I was brisk at the very least but we all deal with shit. Glad you're dealing and not just bottling at least. Back to hell, I mean reality. Good luck friend.
To be fair, OP, it WAS banned in the US for a period of time... and I'm going to assume you know how THAT went.
I will say I'm not a huge fan of alcohol myself. In fact, I have some sort of weird relation- I hesitate to call it an allergy, but that might be it- with hops specifically. Short version is that it only takes about two beers to get me drunk, but with cocktails and mixed drink involving liquor.... I can drink several before I feel ANY effects. I have friends who are constantly buying beer, and I make sure to turn down any offers for myself- though i confess that I tell them I'll do ONE, and ONLY ONE.
However, I confess it does have some advantages. There is a reason it's called liquid courage- I've been able to interact and meet people I otherwise would've been too scared to- I tend to overthink (what is this person doesn't like me? What if I'm boring? What if I say the wrong thing? etc. etc.), and with alcohol, it turns into "So what? I don't care"- an attitude I am NOT able to create when completely sober.
Alcohol has a lot of problems- and I've met people who had to be forcibly cut off from it- but it does have advantages in some social situations. Hence why I try to keep my drinking to a minimal.
I can relate to this. A bit of a buzz helps lower the volume of the more anxious or fearful bits of my brain. In my case it doesn't even manifest as a "I don't care" attitude, it's more like the negative "what ifs" stop crossing my mind entirely and the amount of "pre-composition" of conversation I do is reduced sharply (both of which can occasionally backfire, but it's usually not a problem).
And it's not even as if I'm particularly non-functional when sober. I get along fine, but there's sometimes a certain missing fluidity in beyond-surface-level interactions.
Trying to maintain that ideal level of buzzed-ness is an exercise in futility, though. It inevitably ends in not drinking enough to achieve the desired effect or overshooting it and landing in unpleasantness. For my personal situation it's probably best to enjoy that state while it lasts and then stop while I'm ahead.
EDIT: Also wanted to say that it'd be nice if there were a replacement with similar functionality without the negative parts that were widely accessible and legal, but I'm not aware of such a thing which to some degree probably ties into the proliferation of alcohol.
I expect a lot of it is cultural programming where simply drinking creates a social permission structure around loosening of norms that people begin to act drunk even if it’s not chemically affecting them yet. There’s a ton of stories of people secretly replacing kegs with non-alcoholic beer at a high school or college party and people end up behaving wildly out of line despite there being no way they’re that drunk.
And if you read some history there seems to be similar vibes around other exotic beverages. People built up this whole mystique around absinthe even though there’s really nothing special about it beyond any other sort of pastis. Whatever “hallucinogenic” properties wormwood has wouldn’t have been present enough to make people trip balls the way they claim. And then ancient Chinese and Japanese texts sometimes talked about tea as if it could induce similar states of loosening restrictions and good vibes once you’re on your third cup even though today we largely associate tea with a more cozy and quiet ambience.
There's no doubt that it's more complicated than a chemical inducing an altered state of mind with all sorts of things factoring in. Cultural programming is one, and in my case it could also be connected to associations my mind has made with how I behaved back the first few times I got drunk in my early 20s, which was with generally with less social anxiety and fear of judgement primarily due to a practical total lack of self-consciousness (which wouldn't develop until my mid-to-late-20s).
I don't think there's any argument to be had about a personal feeling (hatred) toward this substance. There's nothing unjustified about feeling that way, as it's a feeling. And many of the things you said is true, including how it's seen as a necessity to have a good time. But I think it's kind of obvious that you are reacting very strongly negatively to this issue because of personal trauma. I've suffered because of alcohol abusers in my family too, but at the same time I've seen how much the conservatives in my country demonize alcohol. They treat it as if it's a crime to drink alcohol, and many of them certainly support its criminalization.
There's really not much problem with drinking alcohol in moderation. Most alcohol drinkers are not substance abusers. You can see that by comparing the percentage of people drinking alcohol and people with alcohol use disorder.
I suppose you can read that more than one way but this is the part that bothers me: https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/sites/default/files/styles/image_425/public/Alcohol%20use%20disorder%20%28AUD%29%20in%20the%20United%20States.jpg?itok=yj36W1vC
Those 29 million people dont live in a vacuum. Their alcohol abuse affects a LOT of people, from their friends and family to the general public in the worst case scenario. Just averaging 5 people being affected per alcoholic thats about 150 MILLION people who's lives are directly impacted by alcohol use in the US. Thats a pretty major issue.
Yes, it's a major issue. It's just not a black-or-white issue.
I'm a lifelong non-drinker.
I never liked the taste of alcohol. I had 3-4 drinks during college.
My parents drank, but the alcohol would only come out of the liquor cabinet when company came over and everyone nursed 1 drink over the course of the evening. Kids do what they see and I saw good examples. At least as far as that goes, my parents were dysfunctional in other ways. :-)
Also I think being an outcast in junior high had a silver lining. No peer pressure to drink or do other recreational drugs.
By the time I got into high school I was doing the karate kid thing and per my instructor the discipline included not drinking.
Having lived with myself all of my life I think alcohol would have harmed me psychologically and physically.
I'm just fortunate enough to have landed in a family and a crowd that steered me away from it.
This is just my stupid opinion, if anyone enjoys alcohol or other drugs I mention I'm not judging your habits nor do I own or comprehend your personal experiences. Please don't jump at me.
Very few people enjoy alcoholic beverages for the taste alone. It's disgusting. What I think happens is a process of habituation. The pleasant buzz slowly interfere and mixes together with the perception of flavor until the association is complete. Because alcohol has a pleasant effect on the brain, eventually people grow to appreciate the two combined. They may even starting drinking alcohol free beer at some point, but I would venture that very few people start appreciating alcohol free versions first. Tobacco (which I enjoy) and coffee are very similar. They're acquired tastes. What is not an acquired taste? Sugar. Just watch 2 year olds trying industrialized sugar for the first time. No habituation is required.
idk not all acquired tastes come with psychological buzzes. Fermented foods like kimchi or sauerkraut, bitter foods like bitter melon, strong smells like durian or chou doufu, strange textures like natto. Humans just like experimentation with tastes.
I would like to stand up as the only person that likes the taste of alcohol more than I like its effects. To be honest I think the drug is highly overrated. But the chemical tang of alcohol provides a necessary backbone for the flavor profile of many cocktails. I like a good mocktail, but they absolutely need a supplement for alcohol (capsaicin is the only one I’ve found) to measure up to their buzz-inducing counterparts.
You’re not the only one! Personally I’m a big fan of the flavor of super-hoppy hazy IPAs, but most folks I know gag at the taste. I like the relaxing effects too, but I’m primarily drinking them because I think they’re yummy.
Same could be said for the world of wine tasting, there are endless complex flavor profiles that are possible by the inclusion of alcohol.
While I can attest to there definitely is an element of an acquired taste over time, I hate being drunk but like plenty of alcoholic beverages for the taste alone. Which is why I will rarely do more than one or two beers in a night. If I get a slight buzz I don't enjoy it anymore. Non alcoholic beers are getting better, but still kinda bland taste wise.
There's also the direct association with "good" times. There's no doubt that a little alcohol is a social lubricant and people can and do loosen up and start to enjoy themselves, conversations flow, jokes get funnier, people lose their inhibitions - the "party" starts flowing. The problem comes, as Ive observed many times, is that they keep going and don't realize they've moved past "good" times into that zone where they say and do stupid or insensitive things that they will either regret when they're sober or can't even remember. But I think the next time the drinks come out, their brain only remembers the "good" part and forgets the embarrassing (or worse) epilogue.
I think the same is true for many things, including coffee. Most people bury the flavor of coffee with cream and sugar. Few people drink decaf, though it takes some work to find truly good decaf.
I quite enjoy the flavor of some beers, spirits, coffee, etc. I drink and enjoy a number of alcohol free beers, and enjoy the more opinionated spirits like Islay scotches which are smoky, peaty, medicinal. Likewise, I drink both regular and decaf coffee at home, black. I think I just like strong, bitter, earthy flavors.
I’d pose that people bury the flavor of coffee with cream and sugar because the coffee itself is not good, either from a bad roast, or bad brew…
¿Por qué no ambos? I suspect it is all of the above. 🙂
I really enjoy my coffee, and like to take the time to get it right. I store it properly, buy small amounts that are freshly roasted, hand grind, weigh the beans, and steep in a French press.
Most people have probably never had an ideally made cup of coffee, or tried different types of beans and roasts side by side. So it could be that folks are just covering up the irregularly crafted coffee at their take away of choice, or their burned diner coffee.
But I still suspect even given an ideally brewed cup, most people would prefer something in it, whether cream or sugar or both. Maybe less than the burned variety calls for, but something nonetheless.
Just my observations though!
I like half and half in my fresh, locally sourced, pourover-brewed medium roasts for the smoother texture it imparts. No sugar, though. I don't mind the flavor of good black coffee but prefer the overall experience with half and half added.
I'm all for people having coffee the way they enjoy, even the godless half and half enjoyers. 🙂
I hope I didn't come across as gatekeeping coffee; rather my point is that I think most people just prefer stuff in it than straight. And that is just fine. As long as it's not pumpkin spice!
I guess I should have clarified that I think this is the average case for folks brewing coffee at home and most restaurants. I also certainly enjoy milk and espresso drinks, so I would be in the category of adding something to my coffee as well!
I also occasionally make an afternoon cold brew drink with cream or toasted coconut. No judgement here!
Speaking of earthy flavors, my favorite red wines are the ones where you can taste the minerals in the soil the vines grew in. Some cabernets, or petite sirahs.
I outright disagree with the assertion that people don’t enjoy alcoholic beverages for the taste - I certainly do, and many bars cater to this. Consider Double Chicken Please; many bars such as this one compose drinks by considering flavors as you might do for a dish.
I also disagree with that assertion, which is why I did not assert that!
My point is that you are discounting the size of the market for flavorful alcoholic beverages, this reads as an assertion of that to me. I don’t really want to argue semantics though, so okay.
Let me clarify. I know people can drink alcohol for the taste. I have done so myself. What I meant to communicate is that this appreciation is acquired in conjunction with the other effects alcohol produces. My argument is not that alcoholic beverages cannot be appreciated for their taste but rather that such appreciation is generally stimulated and facilitated by inebriation. I would be very surprised if those flavourful alcoholic beverages where appreciated to the same extent and in the same social contexts if, everything else maintained, they did not produce even mild inebriation.
I'm saying that the depressant effects produced by alcohol in the human brain are one essential reason why most people consume those beverages. That is hardly controversial.
I totally appreciate the taste of tobacco, but I wouldn't argue against the fact that nicotine plays a huge role in my appreciation, and I might never have consumed tobacco repeatedly if not for the effect that nicotine has in me. These are not mutually exclusive.
I will jump at you regardless.
Imo this clearly does not apply to wine, at least to some types. Non-alcoholic wine is excellent, like a more rich and less sweet juice. I think that in general your sugar analogy is not great, because many great things in life are kind of difficult to get into. I'm saying this as a musician, oftentimes the melody that at first is enjoyable but then gets stuck in your head is terrible and annoying, and important classical or jazz pieces are difficult to enjoy until you make some effort to understand the genre.
Now for anecdotes:
As for beer, I never found it disgusting, even as a relatively small kid, when my parents gave me a sip, I just didn't find it as tasty as now. Part of it may just be that tastes develop naturally - I used to really like sweet stuff when I was a kid, now I still like sweets but only in really small amounts, probably at most 1/5 of what I would have liked 20 years ago as a teenager.
Two relevant anecdotes. First, I abstained from drinking alcohol for about 2.5 years twice in my life for unrelated health reasons, and while I never missed the alcoholic buzz, one thing that I did miss was the taste of beer. Second, at one point when, on the contrary, I was quite healthy, I also meditated quite extensively every day for several months, and one of the unexpected effects was that I stopped enjoyed being intoxicated and genuinely enjoyed being sober. It was honestly a great experience, but it was also somewhat bittersweet because I still really enjoyed the taste of good wine and good smoky scotch, but even after a glass the buzz itself was kind of a meh feeling.
Regarding non-alcoholic beers, I find them okay at best, but still sometimes drink them because I like fizzy drinks but 90% of sodas are way too sweet for me. I tried non-alcoholic champagne once and that would be the ideal soda for me, if the price was at most 1/3 of what it is.
Regarding coffee, for the same reasons mentioned above (that involve heart problems) I stopped drinking it altogether, but I really miss the taste of good quality "hipster coffee", so I sometimes buy expensive light roast decaf.
Nah, I don't think it's true that only a few people like alcohol. Like, have you seen how many different kinds of beers, wines, and ciders there are? People love that stuff!
When you say habituation, do you also count familiarity as part of that? I can see the pleasant feeling mixing with how one perceives the taste, but in my experience I've found there's other things in life that I end up liking more that I assume comes partially from familiarity. I can listen to music that initially doesn't really catch me at all, and then listen to it again, and again (not necessarily on repeat, just that I will choose to listen again at some point in the near future) and eventually I grow to like the music. It seems similar to me as acquired tastes for coffee, alcohol etc. except those are perhaps a bit more unpleasant initially than most music that I would ever listen to multiple times. Perhaps there's something else at play there than familiarity, but I'm not getting any significant pleasant feeling from listening to music that I didn't initially find all that catchy, I mostly just do it because I noticed that they could grow on me at some point so I just don't write things off on the first couple listens.
That is a very good way to look at things. Certain styles of music, as well as certain movies or authors, need familiarization. I am sure that, if I play Michael Jackson's Billie Jean anywhere in the world, people will get it immediately. I don't believe the same thing would happen if I tried to show them, IDK, John Coltrane? Some things must be learned before being appreciated.
I can attest to that theory. My first few beers tasted like piss but before I knew it, I loved beer. I hardly drink at all anymore and I really miss cold beer in summer.
On the other hand, though, I liked the smell and taste of cigarettes from the get-go. I'm now 2+ years clean from cigs and I no longer like the smell.
That quote in bold you are responding to isn't something I wrote. Happy Sunday.
Oh, that is not a quote. I was once the target of vicious aggression for my attitude towards coffee. I was just trying to prevent that from happening again. Nothing to do with you. People get really defensive when you talk about substances or beverages they love.
I think that because it’s a “social” activity, we are collectively oblivious to how harmful it is. Everyone’s standards slip in tandem so everything looks consistent from the inside.
Anyone I get to know well enough to talk on a slightly intimate level either has a consumption dependency on it or is otherwise using it as a crutch for an issue they haven’t admitted to themselves yet. We absolutely don’t need it at the levels we consume it at.
In Ireland the level of consumption has dropped 30% since 2001 [1], although I don’t know what substitutes could be involved.
1: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41457907.html
My father is an alcoholic, as was his father before him. Alcohol has ruined my father's life and my relationship with him. He didn't drink water; he'd start the day with a bloody Mary. Then drink vodka and cranberry all day. Then beers with and after dinner. I don't know that I've really known him sober. He drinks with medication that isn't supposed to be mixed with alcohol. He calls me to cry and rant when he's had enough to really turn his mood. He drives with an open drink in the car. His constant drinking was a factor in preventing a devastating workplace injury from healing for five years. I'm sure it will kill him, someday. When I don't talk to him for two or more weeks at a time, I sometimes wonder if it hasn't already.
Because of this, I've never had alcohol. I don't trust my body to handle it. My brother has expressed concerns about his own intake. He has 3 young kids. I really hope he stays conscience of what it could do to him.
I also hate that alcohol isn't treated with the wariness it deserves. It would be great if it was given the same treatment as tobacco - marketing restrictions, warnings everywhere. Give people more of a chance to make an informed decision, rather than having a drink just because their friends are. But that would require political will, and I doubt that that's something anyone is willing to take on in the current times. Big sigh.
For now, I'm the friend that doesn't drink. My boyfriend is, too. We're people that others can feel safe with if they don't want to drink, or if they have had too much and need help. We don't push not drinking on people, but we're pretty visible in not drinking, and I hope that helps with awareness.
An under discussed part of this equation are "functional alcoholics." Some people are able to drink and still have most of their motor skills, though they are absolutely still impaired to a small degree. Typically emotional side effects too, getting irrationally angry or sad. My dad falls into this category.
My dad became an alcoholic at 12 years old. His mom gave him and his brother drinks that early "because they're going to become alcoholics anyway." I'm sure most of the family tree consists of alcoholics. And after going through my own mental health journey, I'm convinced it's to cover up various disorders.
My dad would stay sober during and prior to his workday, but that would end immediately after getting home. Between 5pm and 11pm he'd go through a 12-pack of beer no problem. He'd also mix in harder liquor sometimes, but did so in secret, because apparently that was embarrassing while the beer wasn't?
With this functional alcoholism, he will drive and do many other unsafe activities while drunk. When I was fairly young (12ish), there was one night he came home very late, and I had effectively mourned his death prior because I know he could very possibly die in a car crash while drunk one night.
He'd frequently have friends over, but they were only drinking buddies. Over the years it was easy to see his "friends" became more and more questionable. To the point my mom wouldn't want them in the house, and they stayed confined to the garage.
His drinking ruined two different families, or 2.5 if you consider mine more than one since my mom tried giving him a second chance. (She has her own issues, but drinking isn't one of them.) Before us, he was divorced from a marriage where he had a kid. And then mine, of course, is a similar story.
I remember I had my parents pre-order a video game for me for my birthday, and the game didn't come out until 6ish months later. I got it with my mom, and about an hour into playing it I called my dad to thank him. He was wildly drunk and went on a rant about how I didn't even deserve it. That was how I learned he was an alcoholic.
I'm an adult with a partner now, and I've had him over to our house once (we're states away now), and don't intend to again. He'll bring an ice chest of beer with him, and he got aggressive with me one night. I'm a grown ass adult and I don't have to deal with that bullshit anymore.
The deciding factor for me that he's beyond saving is that he is convinced he doesn't have a problem. No interest in getting any form of help.
So I agree with this warning in the sense of monitoring your intake and seeking help if any semblance of a problem takes place. Otherwise, yes, you will not only risk ruining your own life, but also traumatizing those around you.
As you may have guessed from this, I don't drink. My partner generally doesn't drink at home, but does drink with my in-laws when we get dinner out or similar. Everyone at the table knows their limits and remains responsible. I have no problem with alcohol in general, assuming you are responsible about it.
Jeez - the emotional abuse is just vicious, isn't it? I can empathize having been through something similar myself. Why it is that adults responsible for raising you just can't seem to behave seems so incredibly unfair as a kid.
I've heard some professionals say that alcoholics maturity levels can become stunted at the age they start heavily drinking. My dad acts like a teenager sometimes. There's plenty of people who continue to act like they are in high school or a college frat well into their adult lives.
Absolutely. It's a hard, long-learned lesson for a child, though. The kind I'm hoping my daughter doesn't have to experience in the same way I did.
As a young teenager, I had to witness my mother being passed out drunk on the floor and I remember being both very angry, but also afraid she would die in her sleep. I've been a passenger in a car with some man who was way too drunk to drive (I still regret not having stopped him). I only ever got groped by drunk men. So I empathize and agree alcohol is a dangerous drug.
A related issue that has not been mentioned (I think) are Fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. I am annoyed by the social taboo surrounding this issue. Most people affected by them probably remain undiagnosed (or misdiagnosed). The taboo does not help anyone (apart from the conscience of some parents maybe). I don't hate alcohol (or other drugs) and I don't think "just don't drink alcohol" is a viable solution in most cases, but I think people should take responsibility for the harm they cause. Same with smoking. I remember having to go to school reeking of my mom's cigarette smoke to the point some teachers assumed I was a smoker myself.
Man, I feel this post. My family is full of drinkers who used it to escape trauma, boredom and who knows what else.
My mom was married to a guy who really went off the deep end from emotional to physical abuse and treated my mom terribly until we left for the last time. As a kid, I had a near confrontation with him. He was shaking my mom, throwing out winter jackets, emergency canned food and whatever else we had packed out the door when I walked up to the house, stick in hand and ready to crack him over the head if he put another hand on her. Crazy, sad times - he couldn't commit to recovery and, like your example, eventually ended up taking his own life.
That all said, I love alcohol. It's far worse for our health than we ever knew back then, but without preexisting conditions that enhance its cancer enabling effects, it (like other psychoactive drugs, stimulants and depressants) are excellent tools for fun in the hands of those who have found constructive ways to manage it.
Not to throw shade at OP's story, but I figured that mine might offer a different dimension. Managing her awful ex husband, my mom got heavily involved in Al Anon and made it a cornerstone of learning to cope with the drinkers and/or alcoholic behaviors of in her life. For my sibling and I, it was an early lesson in human fallibility, addiction and how to deal with bad, toxic behavior on an adult level.
Not everyone comes out of these situations with a clean silver lining attached, but it does happen - especially if you commit to knowing that better, or at least calmer days are ahead.
I sympathize with what you're going through, even if I haven't lived it myself. My dad was apparently effectively a functional alcoholic at one point, but he stopped after my mom told him she wouldn't have kids with him unless he gave up drinking. I'm 29 now, almost 30, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen him have a drink in my lifetime. He does enjoy non-alcoholic beer, though, and over the years those options have grown a lot (it's surprising how many restaurants have it on their menu now, even).
I was on antidepressants on and off from age 16 to 23 and had strict orders from my doctor to not drink at all while I was on them. I did once, accidentally (didn't realise there was alcohol in the punch at a party), and it ended up being a horrible experience. Even though it's only been a few years since all this happened, I remember it felt very isolating to not be drinking because that still hadn't really been normalized at the time. My classmates in college never invited me anywhere because they all wanted to go drinking and I couldn't, so making friends was extremely difficult during those two years (and ten years after graduation, I don't talk to anyone from there anymore). When I did go out, turning down alcohol turned into a contest of who could convince me to have "just one drink"... The peer pressure was unlike anything I've ever seen even now, years later. People wouldn't let it go until I went through half of my fucking medical history with them to "justify" why I didn't want to drink. I think situations like that are part of the problem - for each person like me who doesn't back down and refuses to drink, how many more cave in because of peer pressure, and then keep doing it again and again, and don't know how to regulate themselves because of how often they end up doing it?
People are a lot more open and candid about not drinking nowadays compared to before, and I'm really happy to see it. I have a lot of friends who openly talk about not drinking because of addiction issues in their families, and not even wanting to chance it at all because of how destructive it can be. I respect that a lot and I wish more people were willing to speak up about it. There's also a lot more options for fun non-alcoholic drinks now, so you can still have something nice when you go out with friends or whatever but you don't want to have any alcohol.
I hope your stepkid is able to overcome their addiction and comes out of it a healthier and stronger person.
Hows the stepson doing recently? Drinking/not drinking, treatment etc?
Just starting on the path to recovery. But they're in counselling, have some supportive friends who are 20 years sober and the family is aware and supportive of their recovery so the future looks good. Fingers crossed.
Not that its my place, but if they start drinking again and that's just going to be how things work out, please have them look into Sinclair method.
Its a tricky thing to suggest the poison can be turned on its head to the point it becomes part of the cure and the approach is sort of radical at first blush but theres a chemical aspect of addiction that doesnt get looked at with abstinence approaches and if they can't manage on that, there's still hope and an arguably more efficacious approach with Sinclair.
Keep that mind if you see things regressing. I really wish it was otc and covered publicly and more people were aware of it
Thanks. Will keep that in mind.
As someone who has helped multiple family members through addiction, the issue with the Sinclair method is that it requires them to take a medicine that modified their bodies reaction to alcohol. Meaning they can stop taking the medicine. Unfortunately, from what I've seen, long term success in managing addiction is achieved through difficult self assessment and growth, and a desire to change that can withstand terrible physical and mental temptation and withdrawal.
Everyone I've seen who used naltrexone ended up relapsing and doing more rounds of in patient rehab before long term success.
I wish your family the best of luck.
The only way to drink responsibly is to not drink at all. Full stop. Alcohol is a drug and a poison. It causes so much death directly and indirecty, and ruins the lives of so many people.
People will make a billion million excuse to justify their drinking, Claiming they know when to stop, drinking in moderation requires functional reasoning abilities, which Alcohol completely inhibits. Alcohol also speeds up the deterioration of your liver, and healthcare systems end up with Alcohol consumers waiting for liver transplants.
I'm so thankful to God that my religion Completely forbids alcohol. Everytime I see what it does to people I grow more appreciative of my religious tenants, and belive more and more that they have my best interests in mind.
Blanket Prohibition is the only correct way to handle alcohol. Possession and consumption shouldn't be criminalized, but distribution absolutely should. There should be no public places serving or selling alcohol. Let those who want to consume it make it home.
I believe the same should apply to Tobacco. there shouldn't be any difference between this stuff and meth or heroine. Let those who want to destroy their own lives do so away from everyone else, but corporations shouldn't be allowed to make, create, sell, or advertise poisons. At least this will lessen the impact of peer pressure.
I realize there will never be a perfect solution that stops people from drinking, that's why I'm just interested in making access as hand as possible. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've had a number of family members and friends struggle with alcoholism and addiction. The causes of addiction aren't always well known. Some could be learned behaviors, maybe generic predisposition, a lack of coping skills or processing of traumas, etc.
I hope your step son progresses through treatment well and healthy path forward.
I do enjoy alcohol from time to time, have brewed it, studied the history, and tested historical recipes. It has played an interesting role throughout humanities history.
Unfortunately, many parts of modern society promote unhealthy attitudes towards it, and many folks are ill-equipped to self assess whether they can responsibly drink or when a social activity becomes a crutch.
Take care, and I wish you family the best.
As others have said, I can tell you’re writing this from a place of pain. I hope you and your family are able to find the help you need, and I hope you all find some measure of solace in the long-term. Growing up, I learned most of my family was filled with alcoholics. I was lucky that my father swore off the stuff and my mother did the same later when she found herself slipping.
I’m not sure hating alcohol is the answer, though. I hate addiction, in general. I hate that it can make someone a slave to their psychological and biological impulses. I hate how it can make an otherwise decent person betray everything they stood for and everyone they ever cared for. I hate how it twists us into rationalizing the problem, despite the evidence to the contrary. I absolutely hate addiction.
I don’t hate any specific drugs, though. I think that’s missing the bigger picture. But you’re not wrong about how we view this particular drug as a society. The peer pressure and the normalization of alcohol in our culture needs changed. It’s a dangerous drug that some folks will inevitably indulge in, but we shouldn’t glorify that.
I think, too, we need to remember that some of these cultural aspects are remnants of another time. Alcohol has long been part of human society, but in the last century it’s reached a level of potency and ease-of-access never seen before. I’m not sure our cultural attitudes have kept up, but I have some confidence they’re starting to. Gen Z is, comparatively, far less interested in alcohol. I hope the trend continues and it becomes another legal drug that’s treated just as responsibly with the appropriate degree of respect for its consequences.
As someone whose first memory is of their dad taking them to a bar with a pool table. Dad was awesome at taking peoples money at the pool table. He would sit me up at the bar and tell the bartender to give me as many Shirley temples as I wanted. At the time I didn’t understand it. I just saw a lot of people having fun but when we got home my mom would ball his a$$ out. MY KIDS WONT BE AN ALCOHOLIC LIKE YOU.
The alcohol quickly progressed over my lifetime and by the age of 14 I was working to help support my family because he added cocaine and crack to the mix.
Watching all of this it took me till I was 30 to finally process it. I was scared I would become him or my grandfather who happen to be an alcoholic until he turned about 50. It was until 31 that I tried my first drink and today I’m a social drinker who hates being drunk. It’s the worst feeling, I’m not happy the next the day. I say all of this to say; yes one can have alcoholics in their bloodline and they themselves not repeat the same mistake. With that said I think it helped that I had finished school, had a career and a fully developed brain. Lol
Just ANOTHER reason I hate alcohol and how glibly its treated: https://abc7.com/post/hockey-player-johnny-gaudreau-brother-matthew-killed-after-being-struck-vehicle-salem-county-new-jersey/15247214/
We're only hearing about it because this guy was famous but this happens EVERY day, with 31 people killed by a drunk driver in the US. Thats 11000 families that hear this terrible news every year. Horrible!