Are "Ask" posts stifling the visibility of link posts on Tildes?
Disclaimer: This is just an observation of changing dynamics on Tildes! I don't mean to suggest any sort of way that Tildes should or shouldn't be.
I've noticed over the past few days that the Tildes front page has become filled with Ask posts. My best guess as to why is that these posts are the easiest to create and respond to? They're an easy way to spark discussion, generating lots of bumps back to the front page.
Now, I love seeing folks connect over all these niche topics and experiences. It feels like folks here are finding their people after losing the tight knit communities they had on Reddit, and that's lovely! In fact, it almost feels like these niche ask posts are acting as an impromptu replacement for the niche groups that Tildes currently lacks.
But, one consequence of this is that link posts get quickly pushed off the front page. I had noticed that link posts often struggled to generate discussion, even before the influx of new users. Longread articles and video essays take time to digest, and time to formulate opinions on. But now, I think this effect is compounded by the popularity of Ask threads, with fewer eyes dedicated to these links after they've left the front page.
Some closing questions:
- Have other users noticed this? How do you feel about this shift?
- Is there any merit to having a group dedicated to ask posts? Sort of like /r/AskReddit, but for Tildes? (That way, the posts can be easily filtered if a user wants to only see link posts.) EDIT: Filtering is possible already by filtering out the 'self post' tag, as suggested by @streblo.
- Should the visibility of link posts and ask posts on the front page be artificially balanced in some way?
Edit: self post is no more, use the ‘ask’ tag.
Here’s an easy solution:
Go to your user settings and filter out the ‘self post’ tag.
You can still check in on the tag by clicking the filtered tag in your sidebar. You'll see only posts tagged with 'self post'. But when browsing otherwise, you’ll just see link posts and recurring threads.
On that note (@mycketforvirrad), I don't think we should be using "self post". That's Reddit-specific terminology, and even on Reddit the reason for it is fairly obscure and meaningless at this point. Edit: here's an old comment I made on Reddit explaining the history behind that term
I could easily replace all the current tags with something different, but what's the purpose of it? Is it mostly just because we don't have a way to filter or refer to Text posts specifically, so it's a catch-all that's more comprehensive than the "ask" tag?
It came from this discussion here. I liked the idea of capturing all text posts together, like @mundane_and_naive suggested, to include things like
ask,predictions,recommendation. I'll defer to your judgement, at the end of the day.I guess what I said about self posts being rarer than link posts aged like milk now, so it's probably not as useful anymore.
Well, I liked the idea. 🙃
I think a good way to filter out or otherwise toggle 'discussion' posts is definitely a good thing to have. The 'ask' tag is a subset of these I think. I'm unsure if text posts have any other uses beyond something that could be categorized as 'discussion', perhaps things like announcements would not apply. So we may want some tag such as 'discussion' to replace 'self post' rather than just apply it to all text posts?
Edit: Also, a nice(?) feature of filtering out via 'self post' vs 'ask' is that the recurring threads are unaffected. But maybe it's worthwhile to figure out a better way to filter out 'noisy' user-generated content while allowing community driven events such as Timasomo through.
I feel like that's a strange separation though—every topic is kind of implicitly a discussion. When the post is a link, the subject/focus of the discussion is the link, and when it's a text post the subject is the text. The meaning of "ask" topics is that there isn't really content in the topic itself, it's requesting other people to answer a question (and the different sub-tags like "ask.advice" and "ask.survey" are distinguishing between the type of answers they're looking for).
I think the separation here might in terms of like... "explicit" vs. "implicit" discussions?
So, I think part of the desire for this separation might be to split the "user-focused / easy to discuss / filled with replies" topics (ask posts, but also other kinds of non-ask text posts) from the "user-agnostic / challenging to discuss / minimal replies" topics (link posts).
I'm starting to lean towards preferring link posts myself, and am less interested in more discussion oriented subjects. I think I've considered participating in several discussion subjects and then I've just completely cancelled out my reply probably at least 5 times at this point.
This topic made me realize what was part of my issue. I left my setting default as activity, and a lot of the content that I have been seeing are these self/ask type posts and my stupid brain wasn't thinking about what I wanted to see, it was just reacting to what was in front of me. Then after I was reacting to things by opening and reading them, I think maybe I felt some commitment to participating, well I don't have a better way of describing it so that's how I'd describe it for now.
After writing up something at length, it seemed like maybe I was contributing but I realized I didn't care about the topic that much and didn't want to get into a back and forth over something that after a little reflection I wasn't that committed to, or they were semi-divisive or controversial topics and those began to feel like complete drains of topics, which that's a whole different issue entirely. There is probably more that I'm not explicitly aware of why I didn't post but this topic really helped me realize why I was distancing myself from this site for a bit. I generally am a very discussion oriented individual so it was harder for me to notice, perhaps on reddit it was more interspersed with other assorted content that I wasn't seeing on here so it didn't dominate what was being shown. I still want to see in-depth content, but some of the discussion content feels less like learning or exploring and more like arguing, or it's just interests that aren't ones that I share.
I think I will take the time to adjust some of the settings to better fit what I prefer to see, and hopefully if there are shortcomings in the current settings that adjustments can be made.
As a practical matter it can be useful to have a way to filter totally in-community content vs links to the wider web. While it is a discussion either way, the two types of content do tend to be different. For people who might use Tildes a primarily a link aggregator, this can be useful, as it can be for people who primarily use Tildes for (e.g.) soliciting recommendations. I don’t see how it can hurt to have a way to quickly filter the two, even if ‘self post’ isn’t the best term for it.
Yea, 'ask' does probably cover most of what's needed here.
I do like the separation of the recurring threads however. There's less of a need to filter those out, in my opinion anyways. If other people feel similarly maybe adopting something like automated.ask @mycketforvirrad?
I'll go with whatever the overriding consensus is. Tags are a collaborative effort and malleable. Some work and some don't. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what is eventually settled on.
Subreddits like /r/frugal have both flair for discussion and questions. They get used pretty interchangeably. The distinction isn't obvious to most users.
Not that you asked me, but here's what I think:
The simplest thing would be to rename "self post" to "text post" and move on. It's even the same length.
Someday when changes to the code are in scope, I think it would be more natural to ask for what you do want, rather than filtering out what you don't want. So, implicitly or explicitly tagging all link posts with "link" and writing "+link" to filter for only link posts would make sense if there were positive tag filters.
cc: @mycketforvirrad
Actually, we could tweak @streblo's suggestion: people could filter by the "ask" tag, rather than by "self post". Because not all self-posts are questions.
I kinda liked it when
ask.somethingwas the norm, to be honest. Now I don't know what is the logic anymore.Ask tags still exist.
Okay than!
I beg your pardon... 😠
I initially assumed the self post tag was automated (is there any plan for that?), I had to check the topic log to realize it was being manually added. I'll have to remember that for the future.
Dude, the admin/mod is super active here. In fact, I've never seen one more so...
I'm sure it'll pass as the influx of people arriving from reddit tapers down. There's just been a big event recently and the new arrivals need some time to get an idea of the site and the kind of content that is valued here. It may take 2 or so months but I'd say let people figure the site out for now; it's not going anywhere.
Looks like you've been around a while, any advice for managing this vs Reddit?
I don't quite understand what you mean by "managing" the site, but I'd just say temper your expectations. Tildes was never meant to be a reddit killer, and as such it occupies a different niche. It's all about post quality; and as such, memes aren't really allowed. Take some time to learn how people make threads and participate in discussions, and see if it's a good match for you. Not everyone loves the tone of the site, as it can seem fairly dry and humorless. Just try to make posts and reply regularly, and see how you feel about it. I hope that answered your question.
This is how Reddit used to be. It's quite the tonal shift if you look at comments from 5-10 years ago vs now. Back then, the top/best comment generally explained the topic and fostered discussion. Now, it's just jokes and you're lucky to find a comment that actually fosters discussion or explanation. I'm all for discussion instead of low brow humor.
I think the magic of Reddit was evident in things like a picture post of some obscure item and the top comment would be “Radioactive isotope taste tester here. That’s a solid chunk of uranium-232 harvested from the Lucky Linda sea floor debris in 1982.” And it’s like wow someone who knows about this obscure whatever or even specializes in working on it and provides a ton of additional details.
Now the top comments are all “looks like satan’s dildo” or “don’t stick your dick in that” with 35k upvotes. Obviously these are low effort examples but I think you probably know what I mean.
I mean the jokes were charming at first but it just feels like a competition for who can make the slickest pun. And in a day or two no one will remember it.
That's exactly right. There's a place for memes and jokes, but the entire site is like that now and it's frustrating.
New user here, and I think this is a by-product of the website's policy to promote more longform content being front and center, leading to people rethinking submitting a link thread.
See, what eventually became this thread was initially intended to be a link thread to Pixlriffs' channel, before my eyes went back to the text box at the top of the posting page and I stopped myself, thinking "Wait, what is more likely to start a good discussion? A link to a Minecraft channel or asking people which Minecraft channels they like, with the channel I wanted to post as my own answer?" then went for the latter.
I think I'm not the only one in that situation who reformatted what would have been a link thread to an ask thread about the link's subject. Whether that's a good thing, I'm not sure, as I'm still trying to get a good mental model of what constitutes a good thread here, but that was my initial reaction to the stated policy regarding submitting content.
Oh, the irony! You've made an "ask" post to ask if Tildes has too many "ask" posts! :D
Not the way Tildes works. Here, it's less about the format of the topic, and more about the content of the topic. If people have questions about other people's hobbies, that should go in ~hobbies. If people have questions about what mobile phones people use, that should go in ~tech. If people have questions about how people have decorated their houses, that should go in ~design. Removing all those questions and dumping them into a miscellaneous "ask" group would take them away from the place where they're likely to get the best answers.
I think what we're seeing is, as you say, people finding easy low-effort ways to post on Tildes. It's much easier just to ask a question than to source a good article/video.
Also, I've noticed in one subreddit of mine that, once it got past a certain critical mass, people just started asking questions. We moderators had built it up carefully, over years, by posting relevant articles and videos. But, when other people finally started posting... it was all questions. Noone else wanted to post content, only discussion. Maybe we're seeing that here. Maybe people are just looking for a discussion forum, rather than a link aggregator.
I'm starting to think it's a corollary of Zawinski's law: all social media platform expands until it can be a discussion forum. Discord implementing a forum feature recently certainly seems to suggest it.
Interesting take.
I didn't realise there was link posts, I've only ever seen ask posts
Still getting used to the platform
It's funny! A few weeks ago, I'd wager that link posts were the most common type of post, with each link typically fetching maybe 0-5 comments? For non-link discussion posts, most were the auto-generated weekly/monthly topic posts, with very few being posted by users.
(Anecdotally speaking, anyway... I'm not sure if this is backed up by data? I'd be curious to hear other older users chime in.)
Link posts are usually the most common, it's just that we had an influx of more than 2k, highly active users, and they are all feeling the ground and making all kinds of introductory questions to understand both the website and the scope of interests of the community.
I expect link posts to be the most common once everyone settles in.
Do you think this depends on the specific community? For example, in ~food or ~books, I could see a higher percentage of ask posts being the usual, compared to ~news or other communities that revolve around—and get their support from—external links.
Some may have more ask posts than others, I don't know the proportion. But ~talk is the catch-all group for these posts.
@adomo wasn't here a few weeks ago. They've only been here for less than 2 weeks. They've only seen Tildes since people starting making lots of "ask" topics. They don't have the history you do. Their experience of Tildes is different to yours.
I think you may have misinterpreted the tone/intent of my reply? I was intending to describe what the "2 weeks ago" Tildes used to look like in an informative sort of way, to provide the context that they might be lacking. :)
I feel text-posts usually still netted the most user interaction, but yeah, they were definitely a lot less common, so them being bumped constantly didn’t “drown out” the links as much.
Definitely. I'm completely unsurprised though, as this is Activity sort working as designed. Ask posts are naturally going to have a lot of discussion and be continually bumped up. As Activity is the default sort, it's naturally going to funnel folks who don't play with the alternative sorts into those Ask discussions, creating a feedback loop.
I think this is fine, as it's still easy to discover other types of post by using any other sorting algorithm, ignoring ask posts you aren't interested in, or even completely filtering out the
asktag entirely.I don't think so, as it doesn't make sense to group posts by "ask" instead of their larger category. I'd expect a tech-related ask post to be in ~tech. And again, users can filter out the
asktag entirely if they want.That's not a bad thought. A new sorting algorithm with slightly more elaborate logic than Activity, or even a slightly tweaked Activity could do a lot to reduce the disproportionately high position Ask posts are getting. For example, if Activity sort excluded non-root comments in its "bump" logic specifically for Ask posts.
There's a lot more detail in how the sorts work in the Tildes Front Page documentation.
I kinda like the ask-posts, it's the main reason that I'm here.
As a new user I do appreciate the amount of ask posts... It feels like I just showed up to a cool and relaxed party and everyone is just trying to spark conversation to get to know each other.
That's just my two cents though, I'm still new
I think there are a lot, but I don't find it overwhelming, just a bit of a change from usual. You can filter out those sorts of posts for now until things quiet down, if you'd like.
The ask posts tend to be my favourite, so I've actually enjoyed it quite a bit.
Yup, one glance at the homepage can confirm your suspicion. Perhaps an alternative to add to your list of solutions would be a tab for link posts and a tab for ask/self posts. Not sure if that will clutter up the UI though.
I do find it can be harder to discuss on link posts since, well, I don't necessarily want to click a link. But some links could make for good discussion, such as current events, deep-dive analyses into movies, etc. On reddit, people would use link posts as a launching point for discussion on topics, but I think Tildes's inherent discussion-based nature makes that feel odd.
One more factor that likely plays into this: link posts, well, open the link. You have to click the "X comments" below the title to see the discussion on Tildes. On the mobile site, that text is smaller than the title text and thus easier to skim over. It likely adds an extra layer of subconscious aversion, especially when you see only a very small number of comments and thus think "there's no activity on this post".
Maybe people can find some middle ground? For example, just adding a simple "Thoughts?" or "Discuss!" at the end of the title could get people more likely to open the comments and reply. E.g. "Highway collapsed. Thoughts about how this will affect traffic?" "Astronauts have been chosen for the Mars mission. Discuss!"
Another option is to include a brief summary in the comments, and mention that in the title. This is especially true for longer videos and articles. I'm not going to be keen to watch a 1-hour analysis of a film knowing nothing about the video's content beyond the title, and there's not much reason to comment if I haven't seen it. If there's a summary that mentions the general gist though, I can join the discussion more easily. It could also make people more likely to check it out to see the finer points explained in detail.
I think in general the idea is that it’s ok if you read the article first and, if you have something to add, to come back and leave a comment later. I don’t think link posts opening a new link really presents that much of a barrier if you really have something to add to the discussion. If it’s just a passing comment, to the point that you might subconsciously avoid making it because you have to click through to comments, I’m not sure it’s really benefiting the discussion.
I think this is one place Tildes does and should differ from Reddit. There’s really no need for you (general you, not you you) to join the discussion about (using your example) a video you haven’t watched. Even if there is a summary posted I think the spirit of things here would ask that you either take the time to watch and join the discussion if it interests you and if it doesn’t — that’s ok too! Now this isn’t to say that if a discussion arises in such a thread in the course of things (say, a topic you do know about gets brought up in a thread under a video you haven’t watch) you can’t jump in. I would just caution against engagement for the sake of engagement.
Other sites incentivize this behavior because it drives engagement, keeps eyes on the site, and thereby sells more ads or otherwise drives profits. Tildes doesn’t have those incentives really so we’re left asking — what’s the point of engaging with discussions about things you haven’t read/watched/etc? Not much as it turns out!