To each his own, but I would absolutely never go back to an ICE car if I can avoid it. To me going to EV feels like a paradigm shift, kinda like going from flip phones to smart phones. The pro’s...
To each his own, but I would absolutely never go back to an ICE car if I can avoid it. To me going to EV feels like a paradigm shift, kinda like going from flip phones to smart phones.
The pro’s for me personally, in no particular order:
no need to ever stop by a station to get gasoline, get my hands dirty, expose myself/kids to fumes and pay out $100 to fill the tank. (I realize I pay for electricity but it is much more palatable/seamless since I don’t feel the inconvenience or expense at the time of service).
no need to change the oil, perform a tune up, etc (maintenance has been limited to topping up the windshield water fluid and replacing tires).
no more stinky garage
access to HOV lanes in California
instant torque, fast, fun to drive
one pedal driving!
no need to deal with dealerships (if buying from
Tesla). I would also prefer to just buy directly from other car manufacturers and cut out the middlemen, but that’s another issue.
There are other benefits which are more related to the technology (such as infotainment) other than the propulsion method, which have been largely replicated on ICE vehicles (to varying degrees of success). I would consider having robust, responsive map system a necessity nowadays.
The cons so far:
mild inconvenience of stopping by super charger for 20-30 min to fill up on long trips. I use the opportunity to eat, use the restroom and stretch the legs. Not a huge deal for me personally but could be an issue for people who routinely drive very long distances.
expensive insurance ( but I’m not sure it’s much more expensive than other “luxury” brands I would consider comparable).
need to plug in the car at night, takes minimal effort.
I will say that if I didn’t have an attached garage, it would be a lot harder to find an EV convenient.
We really should have had more Chevy Volt types of cars. I was even able to fully utilize one as a renter. I would guess it reduced my gas consumption by more than 50%.
We really should have had more Chevy Volt types of cars. I was even able to fully utilize one as a renter. I would guess it reduced my gas consumption by more than 50%.
Honda is delivering on the hybrid front. I'm excited about the upcoming Civic Hybrid trims. The 2025 Sport and Sport Touring trims will have a new hybrid power train instead of the turbocharged...
Honda is delivering on the hybrid front. I'm excited about the upcoming Civic Hybrid trims. The 2025 Sport and Sport Touring trims will have a new hybrid power train instead of the turbocharged engine. Some weight trade offs, but the Sport Touring is going from 180hp to 200hp as a result...and from around 30mpg to 50mpg. And 3250lb is still in the realm of sanity for weight.
The 2024 Prius is considerably faster than the old ones too.
Hybrids are great and have been viable for close to 20 years now. I don't know why we weren't pushing them harder 10-15 years ago. They make perfect sense as a transitional technology on the way...
Hybrids are great and have been viable for close to 20 years now. I don't know why we weren't pushing them harder 10-15 years ago. They make perfect sense as a transitional technology on the way to full electric.
29% of people haven't tried a hybrid. I still think it's the best of both worlds and sufficient for most of our goals, wants, and needs. I drive a plug in hybrid and I think it's great.
29% of people haven't tried a hybrid.
I still think it's the best of both worlds and sufficient for most of our goals, wants, and needs.
Re: not trying a hybrid I bought my most recent (non-wheelchair modified) vehicle 7 years ago. Got a deal on used a CR-V because at the time an SUV or minivan was the accessibility need we had....
Re: not trying a hybrid
I bought my most recent (non-wheelchair modified) vehicle 7 years ago. Got a deal on used a CR-V because at the time an SUV or minivan was the accessibility need we had. The car is ten years old. I'm not buying a new one any time soon unless I have no choice. The next year's model is currently selling for around what I paid for mine. So honestly it's probably kept its value, which is great but now I can't afford anything that's a step up from there either.
If the wheelchair wasn't a thing I'd have to be sticking with an SUV and I know I cannot afford a Rivian, not sure what else exists in the Electric or Hybrid world in that category. With the wheelchair van I can probably get a sedan But it'll be at least four more years before I could even begin to afford a new car payment. (30k for a ten year old wheelchair van is financially destructive. A new one would have been closer to 90-100k). Some of us just aren't buying cars that often.
Toyota sells a Rav-4 hybrid in both normal and plug-in versions that’d probably be up your alley. It’s basically the same size as a CRV though not as big as a minivan. Though it does run about...
Toyota sells a Rav-4 hybrid in both normal and plug-in versions that’d probably be up your alley. It’s basically the same size as a CRV though not as big as a minivan. Though it does run about $45k decently equipped.
My neighbors have one that they modified into an off road car camping vehicle. They love it. I’m basically deciding between that and a hybrid accord or Camry, which both come in at the low to mid $30k range.
Well now I don't need an SUV, because my partner (who needed it at the time) is now the one who needs the wheelchair van. So he can't ride in my vehicle. But I paid more like 15k for the CR-V 7...
Well now I don't need an SUV, because my partner (who needed it at the time) is now the one who needs the wheelchair van. So he can't ride in my vehicle.
But I paid more like 15k for the CR-V 7 years ago, used. We're still paying off the van, which was 30k. I couldn't even think of spending 45k on a vehicle honestly. Another 30k is equally off the table.
That's fair, I'm not sure how the used car market is here for EV/Hybrids at this point, but it's still another five years out til I get the van paid off. I know my situation is sort of unique, but...
That's fair, I'm not sure how the used car market is here for EV/Hybrids at this point, but it's still another five years out til I get the van paid off. I know my situation is sort of unique, but if I had several kids instead of a partner in a wheelchair I'd be facing similar economic pressures. My point was that 30 percent of people that have never tried a hybrid aren't necessarily opposed to it. I see folks talking about how cheap new EVs are and my definition, being in the Midwest and in higher ed, is very different apparently.
I'm glad the used ones are coming down further in price, but it'd be nice to be able to afford something just 3 years old again in the future. And maybe things will change, we'll see.
ETA: doesn't look like the RAV4 Hybrid is quite down to 15k, more like 24k for a 2019 which was the oldest I found.
For a 3 year old hybrid or ev sedan they're ranging from as low as 20k to 35k, not sure if there's a reason that 20k is an outlier or not so that's not awful.
Oh yeah the $15k I meant for a hybrid sedan. And yeah they’re expensive right now, partly because all the stock is new and not much has hit the used market yet. On the plus side, the batteries are...
Oh yeah the $15k I meant for a hybrid sedan. And yeah they’re expensive right now, partly because all the stock is new and not much has hit the used market yet. On the plus side, the batteries are the biggest wear items on them and they’re legally required to replace them for up to 10 years so the used market should be pretty robust in a couple of years when the first big surge of EVs being leased right now runs out.
I’m not sure I’ll be able to afford one until my kids out of daycare though. Yay for public education.
Yeah I looked at 3 years old because that's how old the CR-V was when I got it. Right now it looks like I'd have to go older, but I know used cars are holding value right now. Tbh my biggest...
Yeah I looked at 3 years old because that's how old the CR-V was when I got it. Right now it looks like I'd have to go older, but I know used cars are holding value right now.
Tbh my biggest concern would be having to replace those batteries so much sooner with an older vehicle. But it's all a "future me" problem for sure.
Right, yeah, sorry, I'm saying if I end up with a six year old vehicle, I may have to actually replace my battery myself after another 4 vs buying a newer vehicle and having that ten years of...
Right, yeah, sorry, I'm saying if I end up with a six year old vehicle, I may have to actually replace my battery myself after another 4 vs buying a newer vehicle and having that ten years of protection. It's all sort of academic at the moment.
Has the RAV4 Prime come down in price yet? I check every once in a while and locally the dealerships want such a markup for it that I'd never break even on the price difference from the Hybrid to...
Has the RAV4 Prime come down in price yet? I check every once in a while and locally the dealerships want such a markup for it that I'd never break even on the price difference from the Hybrid to the Prime. Toyota needs to make some more Primes; they sell like hotcakes but the dealerships take all the markup.
Twenty-nine percent of EV owners across the globe said they're likely to reverse course. That hit 46 percent in the U.S. Consumers globally said their top concern was the inadequacy of the public charging infrastructure. They also cited concerns with high costs of ownership and detrimental impact to long-distance trips.
The U.S. is not alone. Only 9 percent of global respondents felt the public-charging buildout was sufficient for their needs.
What’s with the high cost of ownership complaint? Everything I’ve heard about EVs suggests they have substantially lower COO than ICE cars. In fact, maintenance costs is one of the main reasons...
What’s with the high cost of ownership complaint? Everything I’ve heard about EVs suggests they have substantially lower COO than ICE cars. In fact, maintenance costs is one of the main reasons I’m considering a BEV instead of a more versatile plug-in or hybrid.
As an owner of an EV and an ICE vehicle, the 2 main components are the opportunity costs of the initial purchase price and the insurance rates. The maintenance costs of the ICE are not nearly as...
As an owner of an EV and an ICE vehicle, the 2 main components are the opportunity costs of the initial purchase price and the insurance rates.
The maintenance costs of the ICE are not nearly as high because they are delayed over many years beyond the initial purchase price.
I realize that many people involved in the survey do not invest the difference saved of the initial purchase price, but in all of the calculations I've made it ends up making the ICE cheaper in the long run, and also much more convenient.
I still like my EV vehicle because it assuages my environmental guilt, but from a purely financial perspective, it was not a wise choice.
Do you mind sharing the cost breakdown making your EV purchase more expensive? I've experienced the opposite where the EV (purchased used) has been substantially cheaper than the ICE car it...
Do you mind sharing the cost breakdown making your EV purchase more expensive? I've experienced the opposite where the EV (purchased used) has been substantially cheaper than the ICE car it replaced. Curious where the differences lie.
For me, the cost difference between the EV I purchased and the equivalent ICE model was $14,500K before taxes and fees. The amount I would have paid in gas vs the marginal increase in my electric...
Exemplary
For me, the cost difference between the EV I purchased and the equivalent ICE model was $14,500K before taxes and fees. The amount I would have paid in gas vs the marginal increase in my electric bill is $100 per year, so not much of an increase, but it is still an increase.
I use the marginal cost of electricity because while my overall electric billing rate is not that high, the EV is additional electricity I would have not used and so it gets charged at the highest rate tier, which is a "penalty" my electric utility makes me pay for being a "high user" of electricity. I do not charge at public chargers often, but basically at home I pay pretty close to what I pay at most public chargers. If I had solar, and drove a lot, my cost of driving would likely be less. But I average less than 9K miles a year on this car, so even having solar would not make sense for me (solar also has its own opportunity costs if you don't use a lot of electricity).
I also spent $3.5K on getting a home car charging station installed - $2500 of that was the electrical labor of getting 50A wiring from my panel to my garage, the other $1000 was buying 2 EVSEs, since the first one of them ended up dying just out of warranty. That was just bad luck.
It's hard to know what the ICE insurance rates would have been 3 years ago (was not smart enough to have gotten a quote from my insurance agent when I was doing my initial shopping), but from what I can gather based on my circle of friends, the increased cost of insuring my EV to the equivalent model was about equal 3 years ago, and is now about $300 more per year and has been increasing each year as car insurers have more data about how EV cars handle car crashes. The sad part is that because many EVs have electrical components that run throughout the vehicle, your average body repair shop is not able to work on these and so even relatively small collisions end up being very expensive and require specialized repair centers, often run by the dealers to certify the safety of the vehicle.
I think eventually the insurance costs will even out as more EVs are designed with collision repairability in mind; over the next decade I do believe that EVs will get cheaper on both the cost of fueling and the cost to repair. Right now they are not that, and I'm happy that I can absorb the cost increases because I do believe that those of us early adopters who can afford to push the technology forward should do so especially since it's not a huge amount of extra money for us.
So for me the biggest difference is the opportunity cost of the $14,500K. To my conservative estimates, that's worth about $900-$1100 per year in lost investment income. That's more than enough to pay for all maintenance and repairs for the ICE vehicle over the life of its existence. I also think that this initial price difference will come down (it's already coming down for some models) and that will make it a better deal for future EV adopters.
For my personal situation it's definitely not cheaper, and I'm cautious about recommending them to people who have tighter budgets.
I see, thank you very much for sharing. I found when we were evaluating selling an old car and replacing it with an EV (2007 Merc. Benz C280 -> 2019 Chevy Bolt in my case), the calculation for...
I see, thank you very much for sharing. I found when we were evaluating selling an old car and replacing it with an EV (2007 Merc. Benz C280 -> 2019 Chevy Bolt in my case), the calculation for going from the C280 to the bolt was extremely sensitive to the fuel cost assumptions I used. The change in insurance was negligible as even though the C280 was an old vehicle, it was almost exactly as expensive to insure as the new Bolt. Go figure. So it really came down to fuel cost estimations. In my case, I don't have the opportunity to charge at home as a live in a townhouse without a garage or next-to-house parking, however on the tiered rate structure I'm under it wouldn't have been much of an increase in cost annually if I charged at night. I am able to charge at work which has charge point chargers that charge $1/hr (~$0.17/kWh) which is what it would cost me at my peak electric rate at the house. Not great, but still much cheaper than gas.
We also changed our driving habits, and between my wife and I, who ever had the longer commute that day takes the EV unless it needs to be charged in which case I take it. So we're also cutting some cost through the behavioral change as the ICE we still have is a cross over with about ~20MPG fuel efficiency (so taking the more efficient vehicle on the longer commute is a no brainier).
I think the cash payback I've estimated is about 10-15 years, but it's been a while since I looked at it. Ultimately the sell for us was my wife started doing a 50 mile round trip commute a few times a week and the EV sounded both more economical to operate and potentially more comfortable for a long stop and go commute.
Having owned it for about a year now, how much more comfortable it has been for her on a long commute (and the added safety features that come from a newer car) has been a bigger benefit than the potential savings. If it has turned out more expensive, I still don't regret the purchase for that fact alone.
I need to reevaluate if we're actually on track to save money or not with a year of actual use data. I know our monthly fuel cost dropped and eliminating annual oil maintenance helps. Our tires are wearing slower than expected so I estimate to exceed to 30k estimated life on those which will also help. It was definitely more expensive upfrong than a hybrid, but the tax credit leveled that a bit. We spent more upfront paying for an extended dealer warranty which gave us an additional 3 years on the battery and 5 for the general vehicle electronics specifically to cover the risk of "I have to take this to the dealer to fix if it breaks because general shops can't really work on it" which is my biggest frustration with the EV market right now. I think having competition for dealers where any shop can do battery, motor, and electronics repair is essential to create the competition needed to manage cost for consumers. I'll be curious to see how that evolves in the next decade.
In Australia they saw this and so made EVs exempt from Fringe Benefits Tax. So everybody with their own small business bought one for themselves. Companies needing to replace their work fleet if...
In Australia they saw this and so made EVs exempt from Fringe Benefits Tax.
So everybody with their own small business bought one for themselves. Companies needing to replace their work fleet if an EV was suitable did the same. Very quickly got a lot of EV’s onto the road and will create a fairly quick used market for them too bringing them more closely into line with ICE’s so it’s definitely working as intended.
Though there’s always a few wanting to label it as some sort of government hand out but I can confirm I bought one specifically because of it as our old 2009 car was ready to drop dead. Without it it would’ve been another cheap ICE for us.
https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/08/06/typesetting-markdown-part-7/ The summary: https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/08/06/typesetting-markdown-part-7/images/ci-output-07.png
Along the way, this part will attempt to answer a deceptively simple question: what’s the return on investment for an electric vehicle, roughly?
Insurance on my Model 3 is $77/month with USAA and full coverage w/ $1k deductible. It actually went down from my previous vehicle, I was paying more for my 2009 Lexus IS250. I'm not really sure...
Insurance on my Model 3 is $77/month with USAA and full coverage w/ $1k deductible. It actually went down from my previous vehicle, I was paying more for my 2009 Lexus IS250.
I'm not really sure what else could be included in cost of ownership except maybe tires? Electricity is way cheaper than gas, and the price is far less volatile.
Yeah my BMW is getting into the 6-7 years old range and the maintenance/repair bills are really starting to hit, making me highly sensitive to the long term costs. But I guess with EVs the...
The maintenance costs of the ICE are not nearly as high because they are delayed over many years beyond the initial purchase price.
Yeah my BMW is getting into the 6-7 years old range and the maintenance/repair bills are really starting to hit, making me highly sensitive to the long term costs. But I guess with EVs the technology keeps improving rapidly enough that it’s probably a good move to just lease them and turn them over.
Cost of ownership includes purchase price of the vehicle, EVs are more expensive and not that much cheaper to drive and often depends on how much of a gas guzzler the ICE car it's replacing was...
Cost of ownership includes purchase price of the vehicle, EVs are more expensive and not that much cheaper to drive and often depends on how much of a gas guzzler the ICE car it's replacing was (truck for truck it's cheaper to run an EV, car for car it's often not) and if the EV is eligible for a tax credit, of which there are only 13 models currently for sale and they average $55,545 base MSRP.
To make up for the price difference over time an EV owner needs to drive similarly as they did to their ICE vehicle, except EVs are driven less.
While the average age of a car on the road in the US is 12.5 years, that's not how long new car buyers (those bearing the biggest brunt of the costs) actually hold onto them. New car ownership is somewhere around the 5-6 year mark depending on who/how you ask (the latter link specifically ignores leases).
Yeah, there are a number of drawbacks that EVs face in a market that is allowed to orient itself against it. One thing I'd not considered as a serious problem when buying an EV was that fast...
Yeah, there are a number of drawbacks that EVs face in a market that is allowed to orient itself against it. One thing I'd not considered as a serious problem when buying an EV was that fast chargers would not just charge a premium for their convenience versus L2 chargers, but they would price themselves at what the market can bear, rather than at a simple premium over commercial electricity pricing. So at home I might pay $0.11/kwh, and commercial might pay half that. But fast chargers in the areas I use them are priced at ~$0.44/kwh or more with surcharges, which places a total price of a 20-80% charge at around $45-55 (according to my receipt). Pretty much what consumers are used to paying at the pump (even if that doesn't take into account frequency of refueling; i.e. Prius vs F-150). Meanwhile I pay a lot less than that when charging at home.
Tesla, Lucid, and Mercedes are among the few companies really focusing on reducing the drag coefficient (Cd) of their EVs not just due to shape, but especially in Lucid's case, aerodynamic efficiencies that allow their upcoming SUV to have a Cd of 0.03 more than their sedan. Crazy. But there's no legislation that's really pushing truck/SUV manufacturers to make more aerodynamic, energy-efficient vehicles because on paper the vehicles are already measured as "greener" than their ICE counterparts of identical shapes. But they could be much more efficient and while those efficiencies would cost money in R&D, they'd net manufacturers much better range on paper and in practice. But that's not really what they're selling, they're selling "new EV go fast," so we have a whole slew of vehicles with effective ranges of 223-283 miles (EPA) when they could be markedly better or have less battery and therefore be lighter.
Another issue, which is discussed elsewhere in this thread and one I considered when purchasing my EV, was that EVs aren't really suitable for huge road trips due to infrastructure availability and reliability. I don't want to have to budget L2 charging speeds when going across the country. ~L3 would be fine, and a half-hour break in driving for every 4-hours or so is probably a good idea (food, bathroom, and walking the dog/cat/goldfish), but at L2 charging speeds you're talking 6+ hours to do the same amount of charging for vehicles with large batteries. The road trip factor is something that's going to change the way people perceive their vehicles (if they don't already have a "weekend sports car") and perceive their lifestyle pace.
It really really depends on where you're travelling in my experience. With Tesla's network, basically all US and European highways are totally accessible afaik. The only trouble can be semi-rural...
EVs aren't really suitable for huge road trips due to infrastructure availability and reliability.
It really really depends on where you're travelling in my experience. With Tesla's network, basically all US and European highways are totally accessible afaik. The only trouble can be semi-rural destinations. I won't disagree there's a ways to go on charging infrastructure. I just think it's fine for >95% of people.
Sure, when there's NACS support for all non-Tesla EVs, or more Supercharger stations have been retrofitted with CCS, that infrastructure will go a long way. I was thinking more about trips where...
Sure, when there's NACS support for all non-Tesla EVs, or more Supercharger stations have been retrofitted with CCS, that infrastructure will go a long way. I was thinking more about trips where you'd then drive around national parks or other places, rather than driving point-to-point and then leave the vehicle for the entire day. Charging coverage (Tesla, for example) is still pretty sparse for road tripping to destinations you'd actually drive around and its capacity will really be strained when the CCS->NACS conversion is finally made and more vehicles are capable of using that finite resource.
It's difficult to plan a road trip when it comes to rural areas, especially national parks, where chargers of any type are in limited supply (and potentially limited amperage when all chargers are being used). For longer stays, it means leaving the park to charge, then coming back so you can do more sightseeing. That back and forth takes up a lot of extra time and reduces total range per day during your trip and adds the possibility of more complications.
Incidentally, it's a problem with gas vehicles in Africa when rural gas stations are out of fuel and you have to drive somewhere else to find some. Somewhat similar to gas vehicles, EV drivers have to be concerned about which side of the vehicle the port/charger is on. Having to wait at a charging station just to charge is one thing, but it's an extra pain in the ass when you're 3 cars deep in line waiting for a spot to open up, only to find out that the orientation of someone else's car is blocking your ability to charge.
Also, some people have run into Supercharger stations being down for maintenance that wasn't mentioned, which makes planning a road trip have more variables. That plus Electrify America's chargers routinely having reliability issues just makes me not want to find out how bad a lengthy road-trip would be until I can have more confidence in my car's range and more range overall (I'm optimistic that we'll have 400mi+ range in some 2026 model year vehicles). Battery improvements should fix that for me and I hope that would make EVs more acceptable for other drivers as well.
That cost comparison is not super great for a number of issues that the article itself brings up. The biggest is that it's just a three-year cost comparison, and as you mentioned people hold on to...
That cost comparison is not super great for a number of issues that the article itself brings up. The biggest is that it's just a three-year cost comparison, and as you mentioned people hold on to them for nearly twice that time period on average. As the article states, there are far more variables that come into play when purchasing a vehicle than the choice of energy source.
You've also made an error about the driving habits based on statistics when you talk about how EVs are driven less. EVs may have lower milage on average, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the people who drive EVs are driving less than if they had purchased an ICE vehicle. It's very likely that range anxiety means that people who don't drive long distances are more likely to select an EV than people who do.
I drive 8,000 miles per year. With how obscenely overpriced BEVs are, I'm not sure I would ever actually see a net return on that investment from the lower maintenance and energy cost. I bought a...
I drive 8,000 miles per year. With how obscenely overpriced BEVs are, I'm not sure I would ever actually see a net return on that investment from the lower maintenance and energy cost.
I bought a hybrid instead which had a purchase price much closer to that of an ICE (it was a $1,500 upgrade over the ICE version of the same vehicle) while doubling my gas mileage. Plus, I didn't need to spend a couple thousand dollars running 240v service to my garage and putting in a charger.
While many people do get an L2 charger installed in their home, it's really not necessary as long as you have a standard power outlet. The charging speed is slow, but it's still fast enough that...
While many people do get an L2 charger installed in their home, it's really not necessary as long as you have a standard power outlet. The charging speed is slow, but it's still fast enough that for someone that only drives a couple times a day the car is always full. That's been my experience.
I get that, and normally I would agree if I were keeping two cars in my garage. But my SO and I decided that going forward, we only need one car since we both work from home now. That one car...
I get that, and normally I would agree if I were keeping two cars in my garage. But my SO and I decided that going forward, we only need one car since we both work from home now. That one car needs to do everything.
The bigger issue though, was the actual cost of BEVs. I just paid a little over $30k for a small hybrid truck. They don't even make electric trucks in this size, and the electric vehicles they do make that suit our needs are considerably more expensive. I can't really fathom spending more than I just did on a new vehicle. And being a hybrid, I still get some of the reduced maintenance costs associated with BEVs. We've been averaging 50 miles per gallon, so even though it's not all electric, it's definitely put a sizable dent in our carbon footprint.
The reasons evs win in TCO is the reduced fuel costs from charging at home. But if you are charging at public chargers, you aren't banking those savings and could be paying more than for gas....
The reasons evs win in TCO is the reduced fuel costs from charging at home. But if you are charging at public chargers, you aren't banking those savings and could be paying more than for gas. Maintenance is part of it, for sure. There's very little you need to do for an EV but compared to a new ICE car, it's mostly oil changes early on so it seems like more of a convenience than a major cost saving.
@cinnamontrout gives an excellent breakdown of their costs of ownership for a BEV. We bought a used Volt some years ago and have had a very different experience. I bought a "Quick 220" adapter for...
@cinnamontrout gives an excellent breakdown of their costs of ownership for a BEV. We bought a used Volt some years ago and have had a very different experience. I bought a "Quick 220" adapter for $350 to get Level 2 charging and didn't need any electrical panel work. We use the car for a < 30 daily commute, so it rarely needs gas. Our utility provider offers EV owners a time-based rate for off-peak charging of ~1/2 the peak rate, so our charging costs are low.
We also have solar panels and net metering that usually cover our daytime usage, which ensures that pretty much all of our electricity use is billed at the off-peak rate, so the Volt is helping us get better rates on our whole home usage.
The insurance costs are higher by $100 per year, but that's against our other vehicle: a 14 year old low end sedan.
The volt did run into issues recently with the exhaust gas return valve, which did cost ~$1,000 to repair, but we were able to run on the electric motor as long as we had battery power, so the inconveme
In addition, the Volt has the most low end torque of any car I have ever owned, which makes it fun to drive. That's not really a climate or monetary concern, but it's still nice.
My understanding is that insurance is more expensive because repairs are more expensive. They're more likely to be totaled after an accident due to safety concerns about the battery, and often...
My understanding is that insurance is more expensive because repairs are more expensive. They're more likely to be totaled after an accident due to safety concerns about the battery, and often they cost more to begin with, so it's quite expensive when that happens.
Or at least, it turned out that way for Hertz and Teslas, but rental cars tend to take a beating.
When I bought my most recent car in 2021, I wanted an EV, but I don't drive that much these days and the math wasn't even close. I got my car for $25K out the door new, the cheapest acceptable EV...
When I bought my most recent car in 2021, I wanted an EV, but I don't drive that much these days and the math wasn't even close. I got my car for $25K out the door new, the cheapest acceptable EV was over $40K, even before the cost of getting electrical work and a charger at home. I hope that by the time this car is ready for replacement, EVs make more sense or if we're really lucky, public transit becomes better.
I bet this is highly dependent on brand, and I find myself a bit skeptical of this claim. At this point, I personally know dozens of other EV owners, and not one of them has gone back to an ICE,...
I bet this is highly dependent on brand, and I find myself a bit skeptical of this claim. At this point, I personally know dozens of other EV owners, and not one of them has gone back to an ICE, and I am in a pretty conservative part of the US.
The easy headline is: "3 out of 4 Luxury EV Households Stick with EVs for Next Vehicle." But remove Tesla's industry-leading loyalty numbers from the equation, and the percentage for the rest of the industry falls off sharply.
Excluding Tesla, the fuel type loyalty rate for mainstream brand EV households is 52.1% this year through July, according to the latest S&P Global Mobility loyalty analysis. That's staying loyal to electric vehicles, regardless of which brand they purchased next (even if they moved on to a Tesla).
The chart a little further down paints the picture. In Q2 2023, 76.7% of Tesla households continue to use EVs for their next vehicle. The next highest were Mercedes and Jaguar, tied for 56.6%.
Part of the loyalty struggle can be attributed to a decrease in openness to purchase an EV. A recent consumer survey by S&P Global Mobility found that a consumer's consideration for purchasing an EV has fallen to 52% from a high of 81% in 2021. Pricing, infrastructure, and range were the top 3 reasons consumers listed for not purchasing an EV. For some consumers, having a traditional ICE or hybrid vehicle is a way to hedge against some of these obstacles.
After being an EV owner for approaching 5 years now, I could never go back to an ICE. I'm happy to see EVs getting cheaper and the proliferation of cheap Teslas penetrating the used market. When I bought my Model 3 LR AWD in 2019, it was $49,500 (accounting for inflation, that's almost $60k in 2024 dollars). A brand new Model 3 LR AWD is now $39,990 now.
Honestly, I'm a lot more skeptical simply because of the source. I wouldn't trust McKinsey with a marshmallow. They're management consultants; everything they do is to make a corporation more...
Honestly, I'm a lot more skeptical simply because of the source. I wouldn't trust McKinsey with a marshmallow. They're management consultants; everything they do is to make a corporation more money, so I would at least need to know who paid for it to begin taking it seriously. From what I could tell from looking up the source in the presentation, everything about it is proprietary, so it's not possible to scrutinize anything they say. They're basically just saying "trust us".
There are corporations on both sides of this so they’re making someone money either way. Only paid for this study, it’s a market research study that McKinsey does so that its consultants can be...
There are corporations on both sides of this so they’re making someone money either way. Only paid for this study, it’s a market research study that McKinsey does so that its consultants can be knowledgeable about the market dynamics when they do consulting work.
Dealerships in the US are pushing back hard against EVs, as are one of the largest, most monied interests in the world: oil. There is far more money pushing against electrification than for it.
Dealerships in the US are pushing back hard against EVs, as are one of the largest, most monied interests in the world: oil. There is far more money pushing against electrification than for it.
For non-Tesla EVs that’ve been around a while, I also haven’t heard too much about Leaf owners having trouble with maintenance, outside of the battery on the first gen (which had a combo of bad...
For non-Tesla EVs that’ve been around a while, I also haven’t heard too much about Leaf owners having trouble with maintenance, outside of the battery on the first gen (which had a combo of bad battery chemistry and no active battery cooling). This shows in the used market too, there’s tons of Leafs that’ve been getting driven for 5-10 years and have no issues.
Of course the range on all but the more recent Plus models isn’t great (80-150mi) which limits how heavily these are getting used, but still.
Very random personal observation. Good friend went to Florida and decided to rent an EV Ford Mustang. All good except he was frustrated with the charging. He calls me from Florida, at a Walmart of...
Very random personal observation. Good friend went to Florida and decided to rent an EV Ford Mustang. All good except he was frustrated with the charging. He calls me from Florida, at a Walmart of all places and starts telling me his experience etc., ends with, "...while it's cool, I won't buy an EV, I'll buy hybrid for myself when it's time to upgrade..." So there it is. Cool, yes. However in the practical side (meaning convenient) not really. The purchase price is higher (even with the incentives) and yes maintenance is lower however its all offset by the initial cost and there is the convenience factor which in certain personal situations is poor.
That's a weird thing I noticed with EVs in the States last year. The charging experience is absolutely miserable. My host had a Ford EV and needed to look up just the right charging station and...
That's a weird thing I noticed with EVs in the States last year. The charging experience is absolutely miserable. My host had a Ford EV and needed to look up just the right charging station and still needed to lug around some adapter.
And when we got there, they were dealing with dumb apps and pretty wonky plugs and ports. And even if you meet all the requirements, the charging stations themselves are not particularly nice to be at. No shade or seating or vending machine or anything even remotely welcoming.
The rental car companies seemed to jump into EVs without really doing anything else, making them less convenient to the average renter IMO. Had they done the work to install chargers at their...
The rental car companies seemed to jump into EVs without really doing anything else, making them less convenient to the average renter IMO. Had they done the work to install chargers at their locations, you could leave with an EV always charged up and not worry about bringing it back at a specific level. They didn't, and one of the biggest benefit of EVs is being able to charge at home, so that's wasted on the rental car experience.
The only rental EV I'd accept would be a Tesla, as their whole ecosystem just works and it makes superchargers easy to find.
To each his own, but I would absolutely never go back to an ICE car if I can avoid it. To me going to EV feels like a paradigm shift, kinda like going from flip phones to smart phones.
The pro’s for me personally, in no particular order:
Tesla). I would also prefer to just buy directly from other car manufacturers and cut out the middlemen, but that’s another issue.
There are other benefits which are more related to the technology (such as infotainment) other than the propulsion method, which have been largely replicated on ICE vehicles (to varying degrees of success). I would consider having robust, responsive map system a necessity nowadays.
The cons so far:
I will say that if I didn’t have an attached garage, it would be a lot harder to find an EV convenient.
Note that all HOV decals will be expiring September 30, 2025, so this benefit will be ending.
We really should have had more Chevy Volt types of cars. I was even able to fully utilize one as a renter. I would guess it reduced my gas consumption by more than 50%.
Honda is delivering on the hybrid front. I'm excited about the upcoming Civic Hybrid trims. The 2025 Sport and Sport Touring trims will have a new hybrid power train instead of the turbocharged engine. Some weight trade offs, but the Sport Touring is going from 180hp to 200hp as a result...and from around 30mpg to 50mpg. And 3250lb is still in the realm of sanity for weight.
The 2024 Prius is considerably faster than the old ones too.
If I were to buy a car today I'd get last year's Prius Prime.
Hybrids are great and have been viable for close to 20 years now. I don't know why we weren't pushing them harder 10-15 years ago. They make perfect sense as a transitional technology on the way to full electric.
29% of people haven't tried a hybrid.
I still think it's the best of both worlds and sufficient for most of our goals, wants, and needs.
I drive a plug in hybrid and I think it's great.
Re: not trying a hybrid
I bought my most recent (non-wheelchair modified) vehicle 7 years ago. Got a deal on used a CR-V because at the time an SUV or minivan was the accessibility need we had. The car is ten years old. I'm not buying a new one any time soon unless I have no choice. The next year's model is currently selling for around what I paid for mine. So honestly it's probably kept its value, which is great but now I can't afford anything that's a step up from there either.
If the wheelchair wasn't a thing I'd have to be sticking with an SUV and I know I cannot afford a Rivian, not sure what else exists in the Electric or Hybrid world in that category. With the wheelchair van I can probably get a sedan But it'll be at least four more years before I could even begin to afford a new car payment. (30k for a ten year old wheelchair van is financially destructive. A new one would have been closer to 90-100k). Some of us just aren't buying cars that often.
Toyota sells a Rav-4 hybrid in both normal and plug-in versions that’d probably be up your alley. It’s basically the same size as a CRV though not as big as a minivan. Though it does run about $45k decently equipped.
My neighbors have one that they modified into an off road car camping vehicle. They love it. I’m basically deciding between that and a hybrid accord or Camry, which both come in at the low to mid $30k range.
Well now I don't need an SUV, because my partner (who needed it at the time) is now the one who needs the wheelchair van. So he can't ride in my vehicle.
But I paid more like 15k for the CR-V 7 years ago, used. We're still paying off the van, which was 30k. I couldn't even think of spending 45k on a vehicle honestly. Another 30k is equally off the table.
Well those are the prices on new ones. Used ones will probably be cheaper, but still in the $15k range.
That's fair, I'm not sure how the used car market is here for EV/Hybrids at this point, but it's still another five years out til I get the van paid off. I know my situation is sort of unique, but if I had several kids instead of a partner in a wheelchair I'd be facing similar economic pressures. My point was that 30 percent of people that have never tried a hybrid aren't necessarily opposed to it. I see folks talking about how cheap new EVs are and my definition, being in the Midwest and in higher ed, is very different apparently.
I'm glad the used ones are coming down further in price, but it'd be nice to be able to afford something just 3 years old again in the future. And maybe things will change, we'll see.
ETA: doesn't look like the RAV4 Hybrid is quite down to 15k, more like 24k for a 2019 which was the oldest I found.
For a 3 year old hybrid or ev sedan they're ranging from as low as 20k to 35k, not sure if there's a reason that 20k is an outlier or not so that's not awful.
Oh yeah the $15k I meant for a hybrid sedan. And yeah they’re expensive right now, partly because all the stock is new and not much has hit the used market yet. On the plus side, the batteries are the biggest wear items on them and they’re legally required to replace them for up to 10 years so the used market should be pretty robust in a couple of years when the first big surge of EVs being leased right now runs out.
I’m not sure I’ll be able to afford one until my kids out of daycare though. Yay for public education.
Yeah I looked at 3 years old because that's how old the CR-V was when I got it. Right now it looks like I'd have to go older, but I know used cars are holding value right now.
Tbh my biggest concern would be having to replace those batteries so much sooner with an older vehicle. But it's all a "future me" problem for sure.
As I understand it if the battery performance degrades past a certain threshold within 10 years it’s the manufacturer’s obligation to replace it.
Right, yeah, sorry, I'm saying if I end up with a six year old vehicle, I may have to actually replace my battery myself after another 4 vs buying a newer vehicle and having that ten years of protection. It's all sort of academic at the moment.
Has the RAV4 Prime come down in price yet? I check every once in a while and locally the dealerships want such a markup for it that I'd never break even on the price difference from the Hybrid to the Prime. Toyota needs to make some more Primes; they sell like hotcakes but the dealerships take all the markup.
I just looked at inventory near me and it’s going for $44k. So I’m gonna say no hahah.
Link to McKinsey Presentation [pdf warning]
What’s with the high cost of ownership complaint? Everything I’ve heard about EVs suggests they have substantially lower COO than ICE cars. In fact, maintenance costs is one of the main reasons I’m considering a BEV instead of a more versatile plug-in or hybrid.
As an owner of an EV and an ICE vehicle, the 2 main components are the opportunity costs of the initial purchase price and the insurance rates.
The maintenance costs of the ICE are not nearly as high because they are delayed over many years beyond the initial purchase price.
I realize that many people involved in the survey do not invest the difference saved of the initial purchase price, but in all of the calculations I've made it ends up making the ICE cheaper in the long run, and also much more convenient.
I still like my EV vehicle because it assuages my environmental guilt, but from a purely financial perspective, it was not a wise choice.
Do you mind sharing the cost breakdown making your EV purchase more expensive? I've experienced the opposite where the EV (purchased used) has been substantially cheaper than the ICE car it replaced. Curious where the differences lie.
For me, the cost difference between the EV I purchased and the equivalent ICE model was $14,500K before taxes and fees. The amount I would have paid in gas vs the marginal increase in my electric bill is $100 per year, so not much of an increase, but it is still an increase.
I use the marginal cost of electricity because while my overall electric billing rate is not that high, the EV is additional electricity I would have not used and so it gets charged at the highest rate tier, which is a "penalty" my electric utility makes me pay for being a "high user" of electricity. I do not charge at public chargers often, but basically at home I pay pretty close to what I pay at most public chargers. If I had solar, and drove a lot, my cost of driving would likely be less. But I average less than 9K miles a year on this car, so even having solar would not make sense for me (solar also has its own opportunity costs if you don't use a lot of electricity).
I also spent $3.5K on getting a home car charging station installed - $2500 of that was the electrical labor of getting 50A wiring from my panel to my garage, the other $1000 was buying 2 EVSEs, since the first one of them ended up dying just out of warranty. That was just bad luck.
It's hard to know what the ICE insurance rates would have been 3 years ago (was not smart enough to have gotten a quote from my insurance agent when I was doing my initial shopping), but from what I can gather based on my circle of friends, the increased cost of insuring my EV to the equivalent model was about equal 3 years ago, and is now about $300 more per year and has been increasing each year as car insurers have more data about how EV cars handle car crashes. The sad part is that because many EVs have electrical components that run throughout the vehicle, your average body repair shop is not able to work on these and so even relatively small collisions end up being very expensive and require specialized repair centers, often run by the dealers to certify the safety of the vehicle.
I think eventually the insurance costs will even out as more EVs are designed with collision repairability in mind; over the next decade I do believe that EVs will get cheaper on both the cost of fueling and the cost to repair. Right now they are not that, and I'm happy that I can absorb the cost increases because I do believe that those of us early adopters who can afford to push the technology forward should do so especially since it's not a huge amount of extra money for us.
So for me the biggest difference is the opportunity cost of the $14,500K. To my conservative estimates, that's worth about $900-$1100 per year in lost investment income. That's more than enough to pay for all maintenance and repairs for the ICE vehicle over the life of its existence. I also think that this initial price difference will come down (it's already coming down for some models) and that will make it a better deal for future EV adopters.
For my personal situation it's definitely not cheaper, and I'm cautious about recommending them to people who have tighter budgets.
I see, thank you very much for sharing. I found when we were evaluating selling an old car and replacing it with an EV (2007 Merc. Benz C280 -> 2019 Chevy Bolt in my case), the calculation for going from the C280 to the bolt was extremely sensitive to the fuel cost assumptions I used. The change in insurance was negligible as even though the C280 was an old vehicle, it was almost exactly as expensive to insure as the new Bolt. Go figure. So it really came down to fuel cost estimations. In my case, I don't have the opportunity to charge at home as a live in a townhouse without a garage or next-to-house parking, however on the tiered rate structure I'm under it wouldn't have been much of an increase in cost annually if I charged at night. I am able to charge at work which has charge point chargers that charge $1/hr (~$0.17/kWh) which is what it would cost me at my peak electric rate at the house. Not great, but still much cheaper than gas.
We also changed our driving habits, and between my wife and I, who ever had the longer commute that day takes the EV unless it needs to be charged in which case I take it. So we're also cutting some cost through the behavioral change as the ICE we still have is a cross over with about ~20MPG fuel efficiency (so taking the more efficient vehicle on the longer commute is a no brainier).
I think the cash payback I've estimated is about 10-15 years, but it's been a while since I looked at it. Ultimately the sell for us was my wife started doing a 50 mile round trip commute a few times a week and the EV sounded both more economical to operate and potentially more comfortable for a long stop and go commute.
Having owned it for about a year now, how much more comfortable it has been for her on a long commute (and the added safety features that come from a newer car) has been a bigger benefit than the potential savings. If it has turned out more expensive, I still don't regret the purchase for that fact alone.
I need to reevaluate if we're actually on track to save money or not with a year of actual use data. I know our monthly fuel cost dropped and eliminating annual oil maintenance helps. Our tires are wearing slower than expected so I estimate to exceed to 30k estimated life on those which will also help. It was definitely more expensive upfrong than a hybrid, but the tax credit leveled that a bit. We spent more upfront paying for an extended dealer warranty which gave us an additional 3 years on the battery and 5 for the general vehicle electronics specifically to cover the risk of "I have to take this to the dealer to fix if it breaks because general shops can't really work on it" which is my biggest frustration with the EV market right now. I think having competition for dealers where any shop can do battery, motor, and electronics repair is essential to create the competition needed to manage cost for consumers. I'll be curious to see how that evolves in the next decade.
In Australia they saw this and so made EVs exempt from Fringe Benefits Tax.
So everybody with their own small business bought one for themselves. Companies needing to replace their work fleet if an EV was suitable did the same. Very quickly got a lot of EV’s onto the road and will create a fairly quick used market for them too bringing them more closely into line with ICE’s so it’s definitely working as intended.
Though there’s always a few wanting to label it as some sort of government hand out but I can confirm I bought one specifically because of it as our old 2009 car was ready to drop dead. Without it it would’ve been another cheap ICE for us.
https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/08/06/typesetting-markdown-part-7/
The summary:
https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2019/08/06/typesetting-markdown-part-7/images/ci-output-07.png
Insurance on my Model 3 is $77/month with USAA and full coverage w/ $1k deductible. It actually went down from my previous vehicle, I was paying more for my 2009 Lexus IS250.
I'm not really sure what else could be included in cost of ownership except maybe tires? Electricity is way cheaper than gas, and the price is far less volatile.
Yeah my BMW is getting into the 6-7 years old range and the maintenance/repair bills are really starting to hit, making me highly sensitive to the long term costs. But I guess with EVs the technology keeps improving rapidly enough that it’s probably a good move to just lease them and turn them over.
Cost of ownership includes purchase price of the vehicle, EVs are more expensive and not that much cheaper to drive and often depends on how much of a gas guzzler the ICE car it's replacing was (truck for truck it's cheaper to run an EV, car for car it's often not) and if the EV is eligible for a tax credit, of which there are only 13 models currently for sale and they average $55,545 base MSRP.
To make up for the price difference over time an EV owner needs to drive similarly as they did to their ICE vehicle, except EVs are driven less.
While the average age of a car on the road in the US is 12.5 years, that's not how long new car buyers (those bearing the biggest brunt of the costs) actually hold onto them. New car ownership is somewhere around the 5-6 year mark depending on who/how you ask (the latter link specifically ignores leases).
Yeah, there are a number of drawbacks that EVs face in a market that is allowed to orient itself against it. One thing I'd not considered as a serious problem when buying an EV was that fast chargers would not just charge a premium for their convenience versus L2 chargers, but they would price themselves at what the market can bear, rather than at a simple premium over commercial electricity pricing. So at home I might pay $0.11/kwh, and commercial might pay half that. But fast chargers in the areas I use them are priced at ~$0.44/kwh or more with surcharges, which places a total price of a 20-80% charge at around $45-55 (according to my receipt). Pretty much what consumers are used to paying at the pump (even if that doesn't take into account frequency of refueling; i.e. Prius vs F-150). Meanwhile I pay a lot less than that when charging at home.
Tesla, Lucid, and Mercedes are among the few companies really focusing on reducing the drag coefficient (Cd) of their EVs not just due to shape, but especially in Lucid's case, aerodynamic efficiencies that allow their upcoming SUV to have a Cd of 0.03 more than their sedan. Crazy. But there's no legislation that's really pushing truck/SUV manufacturers to make more aerodynamic, energy-efficient vehicles because on paper the vehicles are already measured as "greener" than their ICE counterparts of identical shapes. But they could be much more efficient and while those efficiencies would cost money in R&D, they'd net manufacturers much better range on paper and in practice. But that's not really what they're selling, they're selling "new EV go fast," so we have a whole slew of vehicles with effective ranges of 223-283 miles (EPA) when they could be markedly better or have less battery and therefore be lighter.
Another issue, which is discussed elsewhere in this thread and one I considered when purchasing my EV, was that EVs aren't really suitable for huge road trips due to infrastructure availability and reliability. I don't want to have to budget L2 charging speeds when going across the country. ~L3 would be fine, and a half-hour break in driving for every 4-hours or so is probably a good idea (food, bathroom, and walking the dog/cat/goldfish), but at L2 charging speeds you're talking 6+ hours to do the same amount of charging for vehicles with large batteries. The road trip factor is something that's going to change the way people perceive their vehicles (if they don't already have a "weekend sports car") and perceive their lifestyle pace.
It really really depends on where you're travelling in my experience. With Tesla's network, basically all US and European highways are totally accessible afaik. The only trouble can be semi-rural destinations. I won't disagree there's a ways to go on charging infrastructure. I just think it's fine for >95% of people.
Sure, when there's NACS support for all non-Tesla EVs, or more Supercharger stations have been retrofitted with CCS, that infrastructure will go a long way. I was thinking more about trips where you'd then drive around national parks or other places, rather than driving point-to-point and then leave the vehicle for the entire day. Charging coverage (Tesla, for example) is still pretty sparse for road tripping to destinations you'd actually drive around and its capacity will really be strained when the CCS->NACS conversion is finally made and more vehicles are capable of using that finite resource.
It's difficult to plan a road trip when it comes to rural areas, especially national parks, where chargers of any type are in limited supply (and potentially limited amperage when all chargers are being used). For longer stays, it means leaving the park to charge, then coming back so you can do more sightseeing. That back and forth takes up a lot of extra time and reduces total range per day during your trip and adds the possibility of more complications.
Incidentally, it's a problem with gas vehicles in Africa when rural gas stations are out of fuel and you have to drive somewhere else to find some. Somewhat similar to gas vehicles, EV drivers have to be concerned about which side of the vehicle the port/charger is on. Having to wait at a charging station just to charge is one thing, but it's an extra pain in the ass when you're 3 cars deep in line waiting for a spot to open up, only to find out that the orientation of someone else's car is blocking your ability to charge.
Also, some people have run into Supercharger stations being down for maintenance that wasn't mentioned, which makes planning a road trip have more variables. That plus Electrify America's chargers routinely having reliability issues just makes me not want to find out how bad a lengthy road-trip would be until I can have more confidence in my car's range and more range overall (I'm optimistic that we'll have 400mi+ range in some 2026 model year vehicles). Battery improvements should fix that for me and I hope that would make EVs more acceptable for other drivers as well.
That cost comparison is not super great for a number of issues that the article itself brings up. The biggest is that it's just a three-year cost comparison, and as you mentioned people hold on to them for nearly twice that time period on average. As the article states, there are far more variables that come into play when purchasing a vehicle than the choice of energy source.
You've also made an error about the driving habits based on statistics when you talk about how EVs are driven less. EVs may have lower milage on average, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the people who drive EVs are driving less than if they had purchased an ICE vehicle. It's very likely that range anxiety means that people who don't drive long distances are more likely to select an EV than people who do.
I drive 8,000 miles per year. With how obscenely overpriced BEVs are, I'm not sure I would ever actually see a net return on that investment from the lower maintenance and energy cost.
I bought a hybrid instead which had a purchase price much closer to that of an ICE (it was a $1,500 upgrade over the ICE version of the same vehicle) while doubling my gas mileage. Plus, I didn't need to spend a couple thousand dollars running 240v service to my garage and putting in a charger.
While many people do get an L2 charger installed in their home, it's really not necessary as long as you have a standard power outlet. The charging speed is slow, but it's still fast enough that for someone that only drives a couple times a day the car is always full. That's been my experience.
I get that, and normally I would agree if I were keeping two cars in my garage. But my SO and I decided that going forward, we only need one car since we both work from home now. That one car needs to do everything.
The bigger issue though, was the actual cost of BEVs. I just paid a little over $30k for a small hybrid truck. They don't even make electric trucks in this size, and the electric vehicles they do make that suit our needs are considerably more expensive. I can't really fathom spending more than I just did on a new vehicle. And being a hybrid, I still get some of the reduced maintenance costs associated with BEVs. We've been averaging 50 miles per gallon, so even though it's not all electric, it's definitely put a sizable dent in our carbon footprint.
The reasons evs win in TCO is the reduced fuel costs from charging at home. But if you are charging at public chargers, you aren't banking those savings and could be paying more than for gas. Maintenance is part of it, for sure. There's very little you need to do for an EV but compared to a new ICE car, it's mostly oil changes early on so it seems like more of a convenience than a major cost saving.
@cinnamontrout gives an excellent breakdown of their costs of ownership for a BEV. We bought a used Volt some years ago and have had a very different experience. I bought a "Quick 220" adapter for $350 to get Level 2 charging and didn't need any electrical panel work. We use the car for a < 30 daily commute, so it rarely needs gas. Our utility provider offers EV owners a time-based rate for off-peak charging of ~1/2 the peak rate, so our charging costs are low.
We also have solar panels and net metering that usually cover our daytime usage, which ensures that pretty much all of our electricity use is billed at the off-peak rate, so the Volt is helping us get better rates on our whole home usage.
The insurance costs are higher by $100 per year, but that's against our other vehicle: a 14 year old low end sedan.
The volt did run into issues recently with the exhaust gas return valve, which did cost ~$1,000 to repair, but we were able to run on the electric motor as long as we had battery power, so the inconveme
In addition, the Volt has the most low end torque of any car I have ever owned, which makes it fun to drive. That's not really a climate or monetary concern, but it's still nice.
My understanding is that insurance is more expensive because repairs are more expensive. They're more likely to be totaled after an accident due to safety concerns about the battery, and often they cost more to begin with, so it's quite expensive when that happens.
Or at least, it turned out that way for Hertz and Teslas, but rental cars tend to take a beating.
When I bought my most recent car in 2021, I wanted an EV, but I don't drive that much these days and the math wasn't even close. I got my car for $25K out the door new, the cheapest acceptable EV was over $40K, even before the cost of getting electrical work and a charger at home. I hope that by the time this car is ready for replacement, EVs make more sense or if we're really lucky, public transit becomes better.
I bet this is highly dependent on brand, and I find myself a bit skeptical of this claim. At this point, I personally know dozens of other EV owners, and not one of them has gone back to an ICE, and I am in a pretty conservative part of the US.
From October of 2023:
The chart a little further down paints the picture. In Q2 2023, 76.7% of Tesla households continue to use EVs for their next vehicle. The next highest were Mercedes and Jaguar, tied for 56.6%.
After being an EV owner for approaching 5 years now, I could never go back to an ICE. I'm happy to see EVs getting cheaper and the proliferation of cheap Teslas penetrating the used market. When I bought my Model 3 LR AWD in 2019, it was $49,500 (accounting for inflation, that's almost $60k in 2024 dollars). A brand new Model 3 LR AWD is now $39,990 now.
Honestly, I'm a lot more skeptical simply because of the source. I wouldn't trust McKinsey with a marshmallow. They're management consultants; everything they do is to make a corporation more money, so I would at least need to know who paid for it to begin taking it seriously. From what I could tell from looking up the source in the presentation, everything about it is proprietary, so it's not possible to scrutinize anything they say. They're basically just saying "trust us".
There are corporations on both sides of this so they’re making someone money either way. Only paid for this study, it’s a market research study that McKinsey does so that its consultants can be knowledgeable about the market dynamics when they do consulting work.
Dealerships in the US are pushing back hard against EVs, as are one of the largest, most monied interests in the world: oil. There is far more money pushing against electrification than for it.
For non-Tesla EVs that’ve been around a while, I also haven’t heard too much about Leaf owners having trouble with maintenance, outside of the battery on the first gen (which had a combo of bad battery chemistry and no active battery cooling). This shows in the used market too, there’s tons of Leafs that’ve been getting driven for 5-10 years and have no issues.
Of course the range on all but the more recent Plus models isn’t great (80-150mi) which limits how heavily these are getting used, but still.
Very random personal observation. Good friend went to Florida and decided to rent an EV Ford Mustang. All good except he was frustrated with the charging. He calls me from Florida, at a Walmart of all places and starts telling me his experience etc., ends with, "...while it's cool, I won't buy an EV, I'll buy hybrid for myself when it's time to upgrade..." So there it is. Cool, yes. However in the practical side (meaning convenient) not really. The purchase price is higher (even with the incentives) and yes maintenance is lower however its all offset by the initial cost and there is the convenience factor which in certain personal situations is poor.
That's a weird thing I noticed with EVs in the States last year. The charging experience is absolutely miserable. My host had a Ford EV and needed to look up just the right charging station and still needed to lug around some adapter.
And when we got there, they were dealing with dumb apps and pretty wonky plugs and ports. And even if you meet all the requirements, the charging stations themselves are not particularly nice to be at. No shade or seating or vending machine or anything even remotely welcoming.
The rental car companies seemed to jump into EVs without really doing anything else, making them less convenient to the average renter IMO. Had they done the work to install chargers at their locations, you could leave with an EV always charged up and not worry about bringing it back at a specific level. They didn't, and one of the biggest benefit of EVs is being able to charge at home, so that's wasted on the rental car experience.
The only rental EV I'd accept would be a Tesla, as their whole ecosystem just works and it makes superchargers easy to find.