This comment section is one of the most American things I've seen! We're mad other countries for having laws different from us? "It's too difficult to keep track of all my bullets." Come on. If...
This comment section is one of the most American things I've seen!
We're mad other countries for having laws different from us? "It's too difficult to keep track of all my bullets." Come on. If you aren't a responsible gun owner, don't travel internationally. Problem solved.
In the Australian Army, having live rounds in your bag when you’re not supposed to is a guaranteed way to get charged. It’s poor performance, and you haven’t done your job as a soldier. It blows...
In the Australian Army, having live rounds in your bag when you’re not supposed to is a guaranteed way to get charged. It’s poor performance, and you haven’t done your job as a soldier.
It blows my mind to see people passing this off as no big deal. It screams incompetence.
As @DefinitelyNotAFae kindly posted there are travel alerts concerning this topic going back to autumn 2023. It is also point number one under Local Laws warning about it. While it might be too...
As @DefinitelyNotAFae kindly posted there are travel alerts concerning this topic going back to autumn 2023. It is also point number one under Local Laws warning about it.
While it might be too harsh of a punishment for the crime, you are a guest in their country and as such you automatically agree to follow their laws when entering their borders. If you don't like it or can't abide by their rules, then don't take vacation there.
As a queer person there are a lot of countries I can't travel to. Do I criticise it? Of course! Do I travel there? Hell no!
As outsiders it is not our place to dictate how they govern themselves.
This seems to be a lesson more and more Americans are learning the hard way as international travel becomes more popular. We need to learn their laws and respect them before traveling. Ignorance...
you are a guest in their country and as such you automatically agree to follow their laws when entering their borders.
This seems to be a lesson more and more Americans are learning the hard way as international travel becomes more popular. We need to learn their laws and respect them before traveling. Ignorance isn't an excuse when Google is an option.
It genuinely surprises me the number of people here who think a stray bullet or two in a bag is 'no big deal', and not in a good way. I've owned firearms, and spent plenty of time at the range....
It genuinely surprises me the number of people here who think a stray bullet or two in a bag is 'no big deal', and not in a good way. I've owned firearms, and spent plenty of time at the range. Going out plinking is a lot of fun. At no point have I ever, ever casually mixed bullets and bags, or thought nbd about loose rounds. The casualness is shameful.
I don't want you locked up. But I stand by what I said. Loose rounds are irresponsible, and the reaction should be 'I fucked up, and here is what I will change to make sure this doesn't happen...
I don't want you locked up.
But I stand by what I said. Loose rounds are irresponsible, and the reaction should be 'I fucked up, and here is what I will change to make sure this doesn't happen again', not a shrug and a whatever. Bullets aren't a stray french fry or a random pen.
"Bullets aren't a stray french fry or a random pen." They are not but I carry a firearm every day. They are a part of life for me. Firearm safety is an important and serious topic. However, it's...
"Bullets aren't a stray french fry or a random pen."
They are not but I carry a firearm every day. They are a part of life for me. Firearm safety is an important and serious topic. However, it's also not very well represented in this thread. Leaving an unattended loaded firearm around a toddler is not the moral equivalent of having a loose round from a broken box of ammunition get lost in a bag.
In general though I agree that responsible handling firearms is an important issue which is why training is so important. This is especially true for new firearm owners who have little to no experience.
Having plinked with a 22 a couple times and locking it in your basement for 15 years is just fundamentally not the same thing as carrying a defensive pistol on your person every day. I'm not implying you specifically do or don't have that experience but I can tell you that a lot of the very opinionated commentors here do not.
While I agree with you that ammunition should be stored properly and not rolling around on my floorboard (oops), it's also true that a single round of ammunition is not inherently super dangerous. Even if you did something phenomenally stupid like hold a lighter to the primer or strike it with a nail it's unlikely to hospitalize someone. Perhaps a large rifle round might do some serious damage to your hand but without a chamber to contain and direct the force it's just not as deadly you might think. The round is just an object. It does not have any inherent moral qualities and it won't go off on its own without a serious amount of molestation.
The bullet itself isn't that dangerous, but if you want redundancy in your gun safety strategy, loose ammo is another point of failure. What if you are cleaning your gun and leave it unattended...
The bullet itself isn't that dangerous, but if you want redundancy in your gun safety strategy, loose ammo is another point of failure. What if you are cleaning your gun and leave it unattended for a while because you know it's unloaded, and the magazine is locked away. 99.9% of the time that may not end in disaster, but what if a child happened to find a loose round in the car that they kept to themselves. Now there's a good chance for something to go wrong.
If you aren't strict about locking up ammo, you can only rely on properly securing your gun to prevent tragedy. If a mistake is made there it's potentially an unsecured loaded gun. If both ammo and firearms are locked up and accounted for, two mistakes need to be made for someone to get their hands on a loaded gun.
Ya you are not wrong. That's why it's such a serious topic. However, not everyone has kids and everyone's circumstances are different. My daily carry spends no time in the safe. If I needed it...
Ya you are not wrong. That's why it's such a serious topic. However, not everyone has kids and everyone's circumstances are different. My daily carry spends no time in the safe. If I needed it while at home there is no time to open a safe in that circumstance and thus it has a good reason to be where it is. I could understand accidentally letting a round fall off my night stand because I took the round out of the chamber and it rolled into a bag. The thought of making a procedural mistake and going to prison over it because of the politicization of the issue is frightening to me and every other cc I know.
That is not an idightment of the responsibility of gun owners, who are in my experience extraordinarily responsible, it's just a reality of day to day handling and use of a firearm. While responsible storage is important it's not a tier 1 safety issue because a spare round rolling around is not an inherent danger by itself. It will always take a back seat to the 4 rules of gun safety because you just don't have that luxury when handling a firearm. While both the round and the gun are not inherently dangerous by themselves you treat them differently , if you know what you are talking about, because you always treat a firearm as though it were loaded. It's literally the first thing you are taught about handling a firearm and with good reason.
I used to carry concealed when I did volunteer work that put me in dangerous situations. I don't recall ever having loose ammo around, nor do I really understand how that would happen. Why have...
I used to carry concealed when I did volunteer work that put me in dangerous situations. I don't recall ever having loose ammo around, nor do I really understand how that would happen. Why have loose ammo at all, vs loaded magazines? Why would you clear the bullet from the chamber and leave the bullet loose, or take bullets from a magazine? Were you carrying boxes of ammo with you and one for loose? Loading or unloading magazines in the car?
It's just sloppy to lose track of ammo. The rigor and routine that go into safe gun handling should preclude it. That should include being at the range with friends with many boxes of ammo. It's not that bullets are dangerous on their own, it's that it indicates a lack of care in the management of the firearm.
While I agree it's not the end of the world, I disagree that it should be hand waived away just because controlling the gun is more important. Part of how you control the gun is having a structured set of rules for how and when you manage the gun.
I will say that I also fly a lot, and I still completely empty my bags that I travel with to make sure there are no surprises. If you own guns, its double important to be careful with your bags.
I have no interest in ever owning a gun, but these questions seem to be pretty simply answered. If you're going to the range and your magazines hold 15 bullets, you may not have the 34 magazines...
Why have loose ammo at all, vs loaded magazines? Why would you clear the bullet from the chamber and leave the bullet loose, or take bullets from a magazine? Were you carrying boxes of ammo with you and one for loose? Loading or unloading magazines in the car?
I have no interest in ever owning a gun, but these questions seem to be pretty simply answered. If you're going to the range and your magazines hold 15 bullets, you may not have the 34 magazines necessary to hold the 500 bullets that come loose in a cardboard box. It's pretty easy for something to fall out of one of those boxes and it's going to be nearly impossible to realize what happened. Even if you notice you only fired 499 rounds, you'd likely think it was an error at the factory.
I'm not "defending" someone who flies with a bullet, but it seems like an comprehensible, if stupid, mistake. It just seems extreme to jail someone over it. Fine them (harshly), go through all their bags, and deny them entry if you want; I'd be all for that. But actually sending them to jail over a bullet or two seems excessive. I understand the motivation that it only takes one bullet to kill someone, but jail time for just one seems worse for someone who made an innocent mistake but probably not much of a factor for someone who was planning on killing someone.
I can see the range situation, though I generally view it as sloppy as well. I was just at the range with friends, and fired many rounds of different calibers. We kept the boxes in a range bag,...
I can see the range situation, though I generally view it as sloppy as well. I was just at the range with friends, and fired many rounds of different calibers. We kept the boxes in a range bag, and didn't leave any loose ammo outside of the bag, which securely zips shut.
However, the person I replied to was saying that daily carry makes it easy to lose bullets, and that is what I was directly addressing. You shouldn't be losing bullets through carrying your firearm throughout the day.
Again, I say this as someone who grew up hunting and fishing, who has a gun safe with a half dozen guns, and who used to concealed carry.
Edit: and to be clear, I'm not saying a loose bullet in a range bag is sloppy either. That's the point of the range bag, to keep it all together. But don't fly with your range bag without clearing it of bullets.
Think of the k9 friends you would make! I will say, I've had residue detected when going through screening. They just did a manual pat down and check of the bags. It wasn't much of a hassle. That...
Think of the k9 friends you would make!
I will say, I've had residue detected when going through screening. They just did a manual pat down and check of the bags. It wasn't much of a hassle. That must have been 20 years ago though.
Just to throw out there, revolvers are a somewhat popular carry weapon and do not have magazines. Speed loaders and moon clips exist but the one person I met who carried one didn’t use either and...
Why have loose ammo at all, vs loaded magazines?
Just to throw out there, revolvers are a somewhat popular carry weapon and do not have magazines. Speed loaders and moon clips exist but the one person I met who carried one didn’t use either and didn’t really know about them
Revolvers are a bit of an odd one out, and like you, I touched on speed loaders in a different comment. But my advice to someone daily carrying a revolver is that if you really need to reload, and...
Revolvers are a bit of an odd one out, and like you, I touched on speed loaders in a different comment. But my advice to someone daily carrying a revolver is that if you really need to reload, and you don't have a speed loader, there's a good chance you won't have time in an actual conflict.
That being said, you can buy small caliber rounds in boxes of 50 or 25 that have a plastic keeper for the individual bullets, so even in the ill-advised situation that someone is keeping a box of ammo in their purse or glove compartment, it shouldn't be too difficult to keep them organized and accounted for.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you have written here. I don't recall advocating for leaving rounds laying around but there are many reasons to remove a round from your carry guns...
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you have written here. I don't recall advocating for leaving rounds laying around but there are many reasons to remove a round from your carry guns chamber from cleaning to dry fire practice. Ofc you should keep track of it.
However, in the hypothetical scenario presented of leaving the room while cleaning the gun and having a spare round not secured, the major issue is leaving the firearm unattended. The spare round is a contributing factor but every firearm owner I know would prioritize the safe handling of the firearm over that of the spare round. It's more dangerous because it cannot be easily assessed to be shown to be in a safe condition.
You should never assume that it's safe to leave a firearm unattended with a child around. Accidents happen and remembering that is an important part of firearm handling. When I pickup a firearm I always visually or physically inspect the chamber and feed mechanism. I don't just assume all the rounds are in the safe.
I’ve read this whole sub-thread and just wanted to add- be more careful, man. Carrying daily normalizes it to you, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay. Keep your ammo secure. Always. Don’t try and...
I’ve read this whole sub-thread and just wanted to add- be more careful, man. Carrying daily normalizes it to you, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay. Keep your ammo secure. Always. Don’t try and explain away why it’s fine. It’s not. Swap out like if there was loose powder on the floor of your cab, or a big pile of knives.
Being around and using firearms and rounds a lot means you have to be more vigilant, not less.
It's just not realistic to suggest a system where nobody ever makes a mistake. Layering procedures and systems makes for proper firearm safety. The 4 rules of gun safety are the fundamentally most...
It's just not realistic to suggest a system where nobody ever makes a mistake. Layering procedures and systems makes for proper firearm safety. The 4 rules of gun safety are the fundamentally most important part of firearm ownership.
Worrying that a round came out of my range bag and rolled under the seat and I didn't notice is unreasonable. It's an inanimate object that can't harm anyone unless seriously molested or paired with a firearm. I can assure you that I am very serious about firearm safety. Part of safely handling them is knowing where and how to be most vigilant.
To fire the gun you need a round and the firearm itself. However those two objects are not of equal importance to the safety of yourself and the people around you. The round is easy to assess at a glance but the firearm cannot have its condition assessed without a visual or tactile inspection of the chamber which requires opening the action and inspecting the feeding mechanism.
The delta in the time and handling it takes to assess the firearm inherently makes it more dangerous and of a higher priority. The reason that the round in the floorboard is an understandable (read not necessarily negligent) circumstance is because I don't keep a gun under my car seat. It's in a holster on my person, in my night stand when I sleep or it's in a safe.
The reason I have left so many replies in this thread is to share knowledge of safe and responsible firearm ownership and handling. There was, at the time initially commented, a bunch of commentators in this thread that were suggesting that these people deserved jail for the criminal negligence of having a spare round of ammunition end up in a travel bag. It's just fundamentally not true and it stems from a serious misunderstanding of how to safely handle and keep firearms.
I don't know that anyone thinks that "jail" is "deserved" for this, particularly 12 years in prison." It just that it's incumbent on the person traveling to ensure they follow the laws of the...
I don't know that anyone thinks that "jail" is "deserved" for this, particularly 12 years in prison." It just that it's incumbent on the person traveling to ensure they follow the laws of the country they're going to, even if the law is unreasonable. Or alternatively, not to travel there.
I think this law is an overreaction, but I don't live there and don't know the context of why it was made. I also know some folks are getting lesser sentences. But I would not travel with the possibility of lose ammo, cannabis, queer media, whatever if it would get me arrested for 12 years or longer. And I'd not travel to countries that have such zero tolerance policies.
Yeah, not sure that I disagree with anything you have said. It's just the reality of the world that we live in that an honest mistake can get you locked up like a violent criminal for over a...
Yeah, not sure that I disagree with anything you have said. It's just the reality of the world that we live in that an honest mistake can get you locked up like a violent criminal for over a decade. A serious amount of care is indeed warranted.
If anything useful can come out of it, perhaps folks broadly will have more empathy for those that end up in such sentences in our prison system. But I don't know that it will change there either.
If anything useful can come out of it, perhaps folks broadly will have more empathy for those that end up in such sentences in our prison system. But I don't know that it will change there either.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only person who has explicitly stated that someone who has loose ammo should go to jail is you, and you did so facetiously. The group you are counter...
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only person who has explicitly stated that someone who has loose ammo should go to jail is you, and you did so facetiously. The group you are counter arguing with suggested two things: don't travel to countries and break their laws, and be careful with your ammo even when you're at home.
Yes, I can read in-between the lines. I'm not ignorant of what people mean when they say well you should have followed the law or that gun owners shouldn't travel to the rest of the "civilized"...
Yes, I can read in-between the lines. I'm not ignorant of what people mean when they say well you should have followed the law or that gun owners shouldn't travel to the rest of the "civilized" world.
The majority of the people I have had polite exchanges with are just misinformed about an over politicized issue. It's understandable and I'm glad that they were receptive to at least reading what I wrote. Nothing about how I manage my firearms is negligent. Implying that I am because I admitted to a round of ammunition finding its way under my car seat is unreasonable. It is not negligent to accept that you should expect to lose track of a few rounds in your life.
Some of those people may own a gun in their future and I hope they take the time to learn about the 4 rules of gun safety and why the firearm is so important in keeping yourself and others safe. To not learn them and how to apply them to safe gun handling is in fact negligent. Losing track of a round is not.
I have been entertained by this thread. Thank you. There’s only one lesson here, IMO, and it’s about respect. (For countries and guns.) Now for my jab. All the explaining away and minimizing and...
Exemplary
I have been entertained by this thread. Thank you. There’s only one lesson here, IMO, and it’s about respect. (For countries and guns.)
Now for my jab. All the explaining away and minimizing and reframing and subject-changing and straw-man arguments that the gun/hunting enthusiasts are blowing up this thread with… well, draw your own conclusions- but I’ll pull out my only Shakespeare reference.
Methinks thou doth protest too much.
I was gifted an NRA membership at 14 by my grandfather who took me to the range regularly. My guns are stowed in the closet across the room. I’ve hunted small game and deer. I’ve cleaned a deer and ate the liver that night.
And I feel very strongly that gun culture is bloated with fetishistic displaced impotence and anger. It’s not a true representation of any kind of heritage, it’s a poor choice of hobby, and it is very attractive to the people most in need of something else… very much else… but there are few comparable alternatives.
Where else is there an extracurricular that offers the low cost, the thrill, the benefits (meat, pelts, trophies, awards), and the identity?
It’s a “culture” for “men” who feel as though they have no agency in the world. They get to join a group that offers the seductive drug in the power to kill… while having an identity that rationalizes feeling like a maligned minority.
The closest I can think of is sports, but that falls way short.
People ruin lots and lots of things. Hunting and guns and that culture is a bastion of people of poor character clinging fiercely to that identity. It’s a wellspring for so many of the worst parts of US culture. I grew up in it and pulled away from it and clearly I have a hard time not judging those that throw themselves into it. This has nothing to do with the morality of hunting. I’m absolutely fine with that, and in fact it’s a needed thing for proper herd and population management sometimes. There’s a part of me that wouldn’t mind going hunting actually… except for the hunters. Most of them probably shouldn’t have a gun, let alone six.
I’m going to hit publish on this, but am aware it’s pretty damning and negative. I’ve made a few passes to try and balance it, but it’s difficult because I’m thinking about the hunters I know- most of them are the worst of my family members and their friends and clubs… and I just don’t like them.
I know some incredibly kind and responsible hunters as well. They struggle with many of the same issues I’ve outlined above as well when I’ve managed to talk with them about this topic. As evidence of this, I personally know of other former hunters that don’t hunt because of the hunters that are out there hunting these days. It’s straight up not safe in most of the state lands above the 46th parallel in Michigan on the opening day of deer season.
Who packs a suitcase for a vacation and thinks, “Gotta make sure I pack my ammunition!” I find it very difficult to believe it was an honest mistake. Combine that will all the signs at airport...
Who packs a suitcase for a vacation and thinks, “Gotta make sure I pack my ammunition!” I find it very difficult to believe it was an honest mistake. Combine that will all the signs at airport security that say “Don’t bring a firearm through or you’ll be fined/arrested”
I could absolutely see accidentally carrying a few bullets. Note, they weren't arrested for having guns, they were arrested for having bullets. What you're missing is that people bring more than...
I could absolutely see accidentally carrying a few bullets. Note, they weren't arrested for having guns, they were arrested for having bullets.
What you're missing is that people bring more than just big suitcases. They also bring purses and backpacks that serve dual duty. I myself when traveling bring the exact same backpack I wear on a daily basis.
I've accidentally left contraban in my backpack on several occasions. Mostly just a can of soda that I forgot about and didn't see at the bottom of my bag. I don't own a firearm, so I've never left a gun or ammo in my bag.
However, if someone did regularly carry a gun in their bag or purse, this would be an easy mistake to make. If you own a firearm, you're primarily concerned about keeping track of the gun itself. The gun is what's dangerous. The gun is what you need to make sure you don't try to take to the airport. I could easily see someone focusing on that and accidently leaving a few bullets in a side pocket.
If someone is a gun owner and regularly carries it, a few forgotten bullets in a bag seems like a very easy mistake to make.
Is it really common to just carry loose bullets around? I have no idea but that feels odd to me. I think in a world where I have to go through my entire bags three times to be sure there's not...
Is it really common to just carry loose bullets around? I have no idea but that feels odd to me.
I think in a world where I have to go through my entire bags three times to be sure there's not stray nail clippers in a pocket or scissors in my knitting and have to empty my water bottle at the entrance to the airport so I can fill it up again past security, it's odd to not check thoroughly for something that doesn't just get confiscated but leads to your arrest.
It just seems like an irresponsible habit to not know where your ammo is. Aren’t you supposed to keep your ammo locked up separately from your guns? A few loose rounds may seem innocuous, but it’s...
It just seems like an irresponsible habit to not know where your ammo is. Aren’t you supposed to keep your ammo locked up separately from your guns? A few loose rounds may seem innocuous, but it’s just one less thing someone needs to collect to hurt someone.
When being stored, yes but you would generally transport them together and it’s very possible for one or two to fall out without realizing it When you have 13 rounds in a magazine, you’ll never...
When being stored, yes but you would generally transport them together and it’s very possible for one or two to fall out without realizing it
When you have 13 rounds in a magazine, you’ll never notice if one or two is missing, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that every single person ever will check their bags for a stray round. Most people should if they knew a gun was in there, but if you packed the morning of your vacation and were in a rush are you going to be thinking about that?
I don’t own a gun and have never had a concealed carry permit, but I don’t know when you would ever need more than a full magazine for a self defense weapon. It seems like any real world self...
I don’t own a gun and have never had a concealed carry permit, but I don’t know when you would ever need more than a full magazine for a self defense weapon. It seems like any real world self defense scenario would be decided in a few rounds, so needing to reload wouldn’t be necessary.
If you load your gun before you leave your house, why would you need to have any spare ammo floating around your bag?
Keep in mind there are different reasons to leave the house with a gun, and most reasons other than self defense would typically warrant packing and bringing a bunch of ammo with you, such as...
Keep in mind there are different reasons to leave the house with a gun, and most reasons other than self defense would typically warrant packing and bringing a bunch of ammo with you, such as hunting or a range day
For range days to cut down on ammo packaging bulk, I’ll store my ammo in magazines so everything packs away neater versus if it was kept in the box. For hunting (assuming it’s pest hunting where the goal is to drop the animal versus getting a clean kill shot to preserve meat) I’ll do the same
If you're going to the range, depending on how many people are going with you, etc.. you might have 100's or 1000's of rounds with you. Some people just toss boxes of ammo in a bag or backpack,...
If you're going to the range, depending on how many people are going with you, etc.. you might have 100's or 1000's of rounds with you. Some people just toss boxes of ammo in a bag or backpack, and go. Boxes fall apart, some ammo is just loose in boxes. For instance, .22 rounds come in boxes of 500'ish commonly, and they are just thrown in the box; They aren't in neat plastic holders like high powered rifle rounds, etc. If a gun jams, and you eject the round that caused the jam, a person may not place that round back into the box, but throw it in their bag.
If someone regularly shoots as a hobby, it is very common to have loose rounds in bags, backpacks, and/or cases they take shooting.
Then they use that same backpack for a trip... voila.. loose bullets.
My cousin was in the same situation. He's extremely responsible. He and his wife were in India to adopt their youngest daughter (she's an absolute angel) and he failed to notice two .22 rounds in...
My cousin was in the same situation. He's extremely responsible. He and his wife were in India to adopt their youngest daughter (she's an absolute angel) and he failed to notice two .22 rounds in his bag. They live in rual Colorado and he shoots varmient around his house. A .22 is a very small bullet often used for target practice. Long story short: Indian customs found them in the crease at the bottom of his backpack, he had no idea, was arrested, and had to spend $20k to work it all out while his wife went on to adopt their kid alone
It makes for a great story now but was quite the stressful ordeal the time.
All of the ammo that I have ever seen has come in rigid, plastic boxes. I've never been in a gun store, though, I've only seen ammo at ranges and in many gun owner's homes.
All of the ammo that I have ever seen has come in rigid, plastic boxes. I've never been in a gun store, though, I've only seen ammo at ranges and in many gun owner's homes.
I can see this happening for people who use the same bag (eg a backpack or small duffle) for going to the range and traveling. I've absolutely had boxes of ammo break open in my bag and individual...
I can see this happening for people who use the same bag (eg a backpack or small duffle) for going to the range and traveling. I've absolutely had boxes of ammo break open in my bag and individual rounds become loose. They're small and can hide in the folds of your bag.
That being said, I have a dedicated bag for that stuff so this doesn't happen to me. But I agree that it's still a serious responsibility.
I guess that makes sense, I just empty my bags entirely before flying since I fly so rarely they always have something that'd be illegal to bring on in them, even just a small bottle of water.
I guess that makes sense, I just empty my bags entirely before flying since I fly so rarely they always have something that'd be illegal to bring on in them, even just a small bottle of water.
Gotcha. I fly enough (1-2x a month) that I don't do that. Very very rarely, I've gotten to airport security and realized that I've forgotten something. I had a pair of scissors confiscated that I...
Gotcha. I fly enough (1-2x a month) that I don't do that. Very very rarely, I've gotten to airport security and realized that I've forgotten something. I had a pair of scissors confiscated that I didn't realize I had (oddly, on my return trip since they missed it on the way out), and I've had a small amount of water in my bottle that I didn't notice when I checked. Both times, no big deal - I let them keep the scissors, and I emptied my dangerous water into the trash can 3 ft away from everyone.
I get that bullets should be treated more seriously than scissors, water, nail clippers, etc. But a couple loose rounds of ammo, while certainly irresponsible, is still a far cry from actually trying to sneak a firearm through security.
And I get I'm probably more anxious than others on it, it's just who I am as a planner. But if country A considers ammo to be equivalent of a firearm (and I've definitely seen reports of people...
And I get I'm probably more anxious than others on it, it's just who I am as a planner. But if country A considers ammo to be equivalent of a firearm (and I've definitely seen reports of people who've accidentally brought their guns too, not even trying to sneak it past), I'm gonna try harder to not bring the thing getting arrested. If I flew regularly, I'd probably keep a flights only shoulder/laptop bag rather than try to swap my usual shoulder bag back and forth.
Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea to use the same bag. Firearms aren't cheap, so the cost of an additional bag for that stuff seems like cheap insurance against something like that. But the...
Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea to use the same bag. Firearms aren't cheap, so the cost of an additional bag for that stuff seems like cheap insurance against something like that. But the 'traces of gunpowder' thing probably isn't a big deal. You're allowed to check firearms in your checked luggage. And there are absolutely times where I've gone to the range in the morning and flown out in the evening. If you get your hands swabbed and that comes up, you're just subject to a little additional screening. I've personally never set anything off due to that, but it's certainly not unprecedented.
One time, I did get swabbed coming back from a trip (no firearm involvement) and they said that my bag or something "tested positive for explosives". No idea what would've caused that, but all they made me do is show them that my electronic devices were functional and they ran them through again separately, and then I was on my way. So setting off those tests seems to be just as much security theater as the rest of the screening process.
Not intentionally, but if there were some loose they really can be quite small, and even get tucked into the cracks/flaps/fabric etc Think of it like if a few peanut M&M sized things were floating...
Not intentionally, but if there were some loose they really can be quite small, and even get tucked into the cracks/flaps/fabric etc
Think of it like if a few peanut M&M sized things were floating around your bag (assuming these are 9mm). You might have to turn the thing inside out to get them all out, but since again they’re easily missed you might not even realize that you have some floating around
It’s super easy to assume this is an irresponsible gun owner, which if there was a full magazine or an entire gun then yes I would agree. If it was a few bullets however, it’s entirely possible that it was a simple mistake (unless it was a larger rifle caliber, which is way harder to miss)
When I’m packing, I don’t actively check for contraband that was already in my luggage. I generally just check what I’m packing to be sure it’s safe to fly
With that being said, I also have totally separate gun bags from my personal bags, but I could see people using the same bags for both purposes
This may be where I differ; I'm always thoroughly checking my bags because I don't fly regularly, and they always have stuff I shouldn't have in them. A pocket knife, fidget putty (not sure of the...
When I’m packing, I don’t actively check for contraband that was already in my luggage. I generally just check what I’m packing to be sure it’s safe to fly
This may be where I differ; I'm always thoroughly checking my bags because I don't fly regularly, and they always have stuff I shouldn't have in them. A pocket knife, fidget putty (not sure of the legality but wouldn't risk), small scissors, etc. I can be more anxious about that sort of thing but I'm not risking arrest either, just my stuff going in the bin full of dangerous items.
I'd find every peanut M&M if I risked arrest for it, I guess is what I'm saying.
So let’s say that you have one peanut unaccounted for. What would you do? Keep searching for endless hours with no luck? Buy a brand new bag to guarantee there is no missing peanut in there? Or...
So let’s say that you have one peanut unaccounted for. What would you do?
Keep searching for endless hours with no luck? Buy a brand new bag to guarantee there is no missing peanut in there?
Or assume it fell out and carry on with your packing?
I’m going to guess it’s the latter, as the first are not appropriate responses imo
Keep in mind that smaller caliber rounds can theoretically fall into nooks and crannies where locating them can be difficult, especially if you’re older and don’t have as great of vision, or you’re less mobile and lack the dexterity to turn your bag inside out
Now with all this being said by no means am I saying it’s okay to leave ammo in a bag you’re flying with intentionally as that would be idiotic. All I’m saying it’s that this is not as black and white as many seem to think
No I mean, I literally turn my bags inside out and empty them before packing because losing, say, an actual M&M in there is gonna turn my bag into a melted chocolate mess if I don't. (So yeah if I...
No I mean, I literally turn my bags inside out and empty them before packing because losing, say, an actual M&M in there is gonna turn my bag into a melted chocolate mess if I don't. (So yeah if I was pretty sure I'd dropped candy in there I would?) I do worry about someone carrying a firearm with that level of vision loss/dexterity loss as well but I'm not saying that they inherently shouldn't nor am I trying to open that can of invertebrates.
I'm just saying if I carried ammo, or cannabis, or whatever that would get me arrested on my vacation, I'd absolutely bring an entirely different bag if I couldn't be sure it was cleared. So yeah I'm not really treating the "ammo" portion of this differently, it's the "contraband that could get you arrested" part considering I'm thorough about it for "things that will make the TSA give me shit" level of contraband.
I mean if the risk is 20k USD fine and developing country jail time....yes, yes I am going to spend 150-300 bucks on a nice Timbuk2 or Chrome bag for my carry on only (no guns!) carry on bag.
I mean if the risk is 20k USD fine and developing country jail time....yes, yes I am going to spend 150-300 bucks on a nice Timbuk2 or Chrome bag for my carry on only (no guns!) carry on bag.
Unfortunately, I think it is. It’s a “gun culture” thing. Or some probably think of it as a “hunting culture” thing. I have family that hunt, and there are regularly shells mixed into bowls with...
Unfortunately, I think it is. It’s a “gun culture” thing. Or some probably think of it as a “hunting culture” thing. I have family that hunt, and there are regularly shells mixed into bowls with loose change, or rolling around in the back of junk drawers. When we start questioning the weird shit we normalize… well… the rabbit holes to fall down might just surprise a lot of people.
I'm probably preaching to the choir, but that level of carelessness is insane to me. Mishandling of firearms or ammunition should be grounds for remedial firearm training or else loose your right...
I'm probably preaching to the choir, but that level of carelessness is insane to me. Mishandling of firearms or ammunition should be grounds for remedial firearm training or else loose your right to own either, full stop. Second offense after remedial training is a total loss of firearm ownership. Letting prosecutors decide if they want to persue charges (or if they are misdemeanors or felonies) for negligent use of firearms is just stupid to me. Take it to court, let it be sorted out there was actual negligence. If ever there was a purpose for mandatory minimums in courts, firearm safety is it. Not to punish but to lead by example in seriousness. I believe firearm culture is passed from the top down. If the State takes firearms serious and severely, so will gun-owners. Our casual attitude about firearms is a destructive feedback loop - it is passed from leaders to citizens. Citizens become leaders who are equally laissez-faire. I'm all about 2a but strongly desire more common-sense approaches to firearm regulations, especially for those who are so careless with such a huge responsibility.
As a long-time gun owner, keeping track of ammunition is just as important as keeping track of the firearm itself. But then again, I learned about handling firearms from my grandfather, who was a firearms instructor, and firearm safety was further re-enforced by my military service where unholy hell would be visited upon our unit if even a single piece of brass could not be accounted for (in garrison, obviously we didn't need to collect brass if we fired in anger downrange).
Perhaps I've internalized this idea of ammunition accountability and it's not as pervasive as I've previously assumed, but it seems preposterous to me forget where you've stored your ammunition. Equally insane not to police your bags after transport to make sure there's no loose brass or ammo.
I agree that gun owners should be expected to keep track of every bullet. Some mandatory fines and firearms safety training make a lot of sense. However, the people in this article are facing...
I agree that gun owners should be expected to keep track of every bullet. Some mandatory fines and firearms safety training make a lot of sense. However, the people in this article are facing mandatory minimum 12 YEAR jail sentences. When you were in the military, would they have thrown you in Leavenworth for a decade for misplacing a couple of rounds?
That's the real problem here. We punish people all the time for things that can be minor lapses in judgment. Speeding tickets come to mind. But there's a reason we don't give decade-long prison sentences for casual speeding.
Misplacing a bullet may not be that big of a deal here, but the fact of the matter is that this isn't just misplacement. Intentional or not, we are talking about someone smuggling weapons into the...
Misplacing a bullet may not be that big of a deal here, but the fact of the matter is that this isn't just misplacement. Intentional or not, we are talking about someone smuggling weapons into the country. It's a harsh penalty because it's a pretty big crime.
That being said, I'm very much against mandatory minimums, and this is the perfect example of the problem they represent.
I think we're in agreement. I didn't mention prison or jail time in my post because the point isn't to punish them but remove the problem they pose. The easiest way to do that is to remove their...
I think we're in agreement. I didn't mention prison or jail time in my post because the point isn't to punish them but remove the problem they pose. The easiest way to do that is to remove their right to own firearms if they incur multiple offenses.
I would never want someone to suffer in our correctional facilities, especially over something like a lapse of judgement. We give them the benefit of the doubt: if negligence was found, we give them proper training to prevent negligent behavior in the future. If they have another lapse in judgement even after training, they clearly don't possess enough judgement or sense to bear the responsibility of firearm ownership.
We apply this same mindset to violent offenders. If you're convicted of domestic abuse, for instance, you can't own firearms because you've proven to have too poor of judgement to be trusted with them.
My logic is to apply the same philosophy here with a built-in mechanism to provide for correcting the unwanted behavior before removing their right completely.
So the point is not to punish. Correct by providing training. If they can't be trained, remove their guns. They never have to see the inside of a prison or jail.
Edit: I also might just be overzealous with ammunition accountability - I'm fully aware that what's ingrained in me might not be the norm and the majority might believe that it shouldn't be the norm. I honestly don't know because the idea that people might not care about the whereabouts of their ammo is a new concept to me. Perhaps it isn't as big a deal to society at large as it is to me.
I think you should have a general awareness of where your ammo is, but I do think it’s unreasonable to expect every single gun owner to think “okay, I loaded 13 rounds in my magazine but I didn’t...
I think you should have a general awareness of where your ammo is, but I do think it’s unreasonable to expect every single gun owner to think “okay, I loaded 13 rounds in my magazine but I didn’t end up using that one today. When I get home I will unload the magazine and count to be sure they’re all there”
Personally I have a good idea of where my ammo is, but I 100% do not count my ammunition when I get home. I do search my bags to be sure there are no stray rounds, but even still if one disappears am I going to start pulling hairs searching through my bag for it until located? Very unlikely, unless it’s a more expensive cartridge ($1+/round)
Except that attempting to smuggle (well transporting without a license) arms into a country is something the police usually take pretty seriously. Letting everyone off with a "oh well it was an...
Except that attempting to smuggle (well transporting without a license) arms into a country is something the police usually take pretty seriously. Letting everyone off with a "oh well it was an innocent mistake" seems like a sure-fire recipe to effectively decriminalise smuggling arms.
Confiscating the bullets and denying entry would be both reasonable and not merely shrugging it off. It's like when nations go power-tripping over weed residue on the bottom of someone's shoes.
Confiscating the bullets and denying entry would be both reasonable and not merely shrugging it off. It's like when nations go power-tripping over weed residue on the bottom of someone's shoes.
Barring entry is a reasonable alternative, but if you're a small island state "we'll never give you a visa" isn't probably the threat that it is if you are e.g. a Schengen country where it's "no...
Barring entry is a reasonable alternative, but if you're a small island state "we'll never give you a visa" isn't probably the threat that it is if you are e.g. a Schengen country where it's "no more trips to Europe".
Bullets are way smaller than a bag of weed though, less smelly, and their brass casing allows them to fall deeper into a bag (as opposed to a plastic baggy that’s going to get caught on things and...
Bullets are way smaller than a bag of weed though, less smelly, and their brass casing allows them to fall deeper into a bag (as opposed to a plastic baggy that’s going to get caught on things and resist getting buried)
Again though depending on the size of the caliber bullets can be significantly smaller than most bags of weed
I've concealed carried at times in the past. There is a big difference between Cheerios at the bottom of a purse, and bullets. You really shouldn't treat your regular backpack or purse like a...
I've concealed carried at times in the past. There is a big difference between Cheerios at the bottom of a purse, and bullets. You really shouldn't treat your regular backpack or purse like a range bag, and you really shouldn't daily carry loose bullets. They come in neatly organized boxes for a reason, magazines are a thing, and even revolvers have quick loaders.
I've forgotten a can of cold brew coffee in my bag at the airport, but the standard of care you should give drinks and guns and ammo is different. Even if for no other reason than the consequence of having it unexpectedly be in a bag at the airport.
Yes, bullets aren't going to hurt anyone on their own. But losing track of bullets is a sign of a sloppy or careless gun owner.
Edit: and yes, if you don't have a dedicated range bag and lose bullets in your backpack, then you should still know to do a full unload of your bag before packing.
I find it bizarre that people would keep bullets in a purse or backpack. When I was into shooting, my gun and its bullets stayed in their case and only came out at the place I intended to use...
I find it bizarre that people would keep bullets in a purse or backpack.
When I was into shooting, my gun and its bullets stayed in their case and only came out at the place I intended to use them.
The idea that people will casually keep a gun, ammunition, or both in a purse or backpack is downright scary to me. You don't need these things when you go out for groceries, all you're doing is creating a liability.
That's how ingrained gun culture is in the US. Ammo is so commonplace for a large percentage of the population that there's bound to be people who inadvertently travel to foreign countries with...
That's how ingrained gun culture is in the US. Ammo is so commonplace for a large percentage of the population that there's bound to be people who inadvertently travel to foreign countries with it. Still stupid and reckless, I'm just not surprised in the slightest at these headlines. We're talking about a country where a large number of state governments are trying to arm teachers in classrooms after all.
I've found live rounds/bullets on the ground before, and not necessarily where you might expect them (outside a shooting range or gun store or particularly "dangerous" part of town, for example)....
I've found live rounds/bullets on the ground before, and not necessarily where you might expect them (outside a shooting range or gun store or particularly "dangerous" part of town, for example). I live in a mid- to large-sized Midwestern city.
So yeah, your observation is correct. We have gun culture so ingrained in us that it is not that unexpected.
That said, I find the obsession with guns rather off-putting and honestly more than a little scary, and I'm born and bred American.
I'm right there with ya. I've shot a gun one time in my whole life and would never own one considering the significantly increased risk of being a victim of violent gun-related crime or of...
That said, I find the obsession with guns rather off-putting and honestly more than a little scary, and I'm born and bred American.
I'm right there with ya. I've shot a gun one time in my whole life and would never own one considering the significantly increased risk of being a victim of violent gun-related crime or of committing suicide. There was an article posted to Tildes recently about a teenage boy who shot himself after he was scammed into sending nude photos and blackmailed with them. He was in crisis and made a decision he couldn't take back, enabled by the accessibility of his father's hand gun.
I used to own a few guns and go shooting regularly, but the way everyone else with guns fetishizes them to an absurd degree and makes it the cornerstone of their personality permanently put me off...
I used to own a few guns and go shooting regularly, but the way everyone else with guns fetishizes them to an absurd degree and makes it the cornerstone of their personality permanently put me off the hobby. It seems to short-circuit their capacity for rational thinking.
I have zero problem with people exercising their constitutional rights to bear and own "arms." (We could get into a huge discussion on rather or not modern day "arms" are anything the framers...
I have zero problem with people exercising their constitutional rights to bear and own "arms." (We could get into a huge discussion on rather or not modern day "arms" are anything the framers would've allowed but that is a whole other thing). I have shot guns before and it is pretty fun. I get the appeal of the devices. I think shooting sports are great and hunting is an important skill to know. I would never want to tell someone they can't defend their home or family or property to a reasonable degree (we don't allow people to set up booby-traps, for example).
That said...
I do have a problem with the fact that we, as a country, can't even get to the point that we want some common sense things like universal background checks and red flag laws. I'm at least glad some progress has been made against the "gun show loophole" (which is, again, something some gun owners claim is not a real thing) but as usual progress is slow there.
I have a problem with the fact that people can go out and buy military grade weapons (again, something the gun culture says isn't a real thing - but bump stocks and other items to turn semi-automatic into automatic weapons exist) and keep them at home. On top of that I don't find any argument convincing that an assault rifle is something your typical citizen needs - we're not going to rise up against the military and even if people do they will not be very successful in the short term. The military has drones. There are probably degrees to which people would agree or disagree on this point. I can also see the argument that single shot assault rifles are closer to the original idea of "arms" vs a handgun with a clip but as it stands aftermarket parts make this a moot point, IMO.
I have a problem with the fact that an electronic database of gun owners is currently illegal in this country. (Again, another point that the gun culture has led people to believe will mean that their guns will get taken away.) We already have large databases of the population. Your driver's license doesn't get taken away because you are in a database, UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL. The same should be for guns.
I have a huge problem with the fact that my 6 year old is concerned with gun violence because they have active shooter drills at their school. I have a huge problem with the fact that we have to get them a counselor so they can learn to deal with their fears about gun violence in a productive manner. I hate that they have to even think about this kind of thing, and there's not much we can do as parents other than to be supportive and get them the help we can. Children in almost any other country on earth do not deal with this at their age, unless they are living in a "war torn" nation.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here and deep in the comments on this thread but I had to vent a bit I guess.
I find it a bit absurd how a substantial number of americans appear to think that the application of the laws in this case is absurd, since it could mistakenly happen to gunowners and their gun...
I find it a bit absurd how a substantial number of americans appear to think that the application of the laws in this case is absurd, since it could mistakenly happen to gunowners and their gun laws are less strict than in most countries, but if the reverse were to happen with some sort of drug thats illegal in the US, the result would basically be the same, but no one would bat an eye.
lol even the opposite is true too. I'm a regular cannabis user, and travel to Asia relatively frequently. I'm turning out my bags every time to make sure I don't have a random pen or edibles in...
lol even the opposite is true too. I'm a regular cannabis user, and travel to Asia relatively frequently. I'm turning out my bags every time to make sure I don't have a random pen or edibles in there so I don't get executed or publicly whipped. Or I just get a new bag.
This was a common scam in the Phillipines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninoy_Aquino_International_Airport_bullet_planting_scandal You get a bullet in the suitcase between the plane and baggage...
While looking for this I found multiple stories of "American with ammo arrested in" Taiwan, Jamica, Mexico. But nothing flipped around. This looks like it was departures but the man isn't...
While looking for this I found multiple stories of "American with ammo arrested in" Taiwan, Jamica, Mexico. But nothing flipped around.
It seems like a) carrying around loose ammo is a uniquely American experience, b) the TSA doesn't take it super seriously when they find it (at least when you're not perceived for other reasons to be a terrorist), c) (some) Americans are thus incredibly blasé about it when going to other countries despite it being very abnormal to carry weapons and ammo there.
Yes. I was really asking because reciprocity is a concept in international relations and some countries have it coded in laws of visa reciprocity. They will impose on American citizens the same...
Yes.
I was really asking because reciprocity is a concept in international relations and some countries have it coded in laws of visa reciprocity. They will impose on American citizens the same restrictions the US imposes on their citizens. So, under that principle, prosecuting an American in that circumstance in Turks and Caicos would be considered more permissible if the US did the same to citizens of Turks and Caicos.
Or should I say UK citizens? I'm a bit confused on their status.
It isn't a reciprocity thing, afaict it's a "zero tolerance" for anyone having any guns or ammo who doesn't have a permit thing. It's hard to have reciprocity for American gun culture. Their...
It isn't a reciprocity thing, afaict it's a "zero tolerance" for anyone having any guns or ammo who doesn't have a permit thing.
It's hard to have reciprocity for American gun culture. Their citizens don't carry guns or ammo.
I don't think homosexuality should be illegal anywhere but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be an idiot to travel somewhere where it was while there was a travel advisory about it and start making out...
I don't think homosexuality should be illegal anywhere but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be an idiot to travel somewhere where it was while there was a travel advisory about it and start making out with my wife.
It's possible for the punishment to be cruel and too strict and for the people who brought loose ammo with them to be doing something dumb.
And it would be the same situation -- the punishment is cruel and doesn't fit the crime, but I would have been an idiot to travel somewhere where that's a potential consequence without being way...
And it would be the same situation -- the punishment is cruel and doesn't fit the crime, but I would have been an idiot to travel somewhere where that's a potential consequence without being way more vigilant about what's in my bag.
How soon until the US State Department helps them secure their borders (and keep American citizens out of their prisons) by issuing a travel advisory? If these are all over one or two bullets, it...
How soon until the US State Department helps them secure their borders (and keep American citizens out of their prisons) by issuing a travel advisory?
If these are all over one or two bullets, it absolutely is a petty power trip and not a legitimate attempt to stop the flow of ingredients for gun violence.
Running airport security on this basis of small exceptions for things people think might be innocent mistakes is a recipe for disaster (not to mention this would create a very easy avenue for arms...
If these are all over one or two bullets, it absolutely is a petty power trip and not a legitimate attempt to stop the flow of ingredients for gun violence.
Running airport security on this basis of small exceptions for things people think might be innocent mistakes is a recipe for disaster (not to mention this would create a very easy avenue for arms smugglers to bring ammunition into the country). I think it's pretty reasonable to expect people to check their luggage to make sure that they don't have any bullets before they go on holiday.
Did you not see the other discussion here on how many types of bullets easily can hide in folds in the fabric? Confiscating the bullets is the obvious course of action for security. Denying entry...
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect people to check their luggage to make sure that they don't have any bullets before they go on holiday.
Did you not see the other discussion here on how many types of bullets easily can hide in folds in the fabric? Confiscating the bullets is the obvious course of action for security. Denying entry is also plenty reasonable. Jail time is not.
Check you don't have anything illegal in your bags before you go on holiday (so you don't end up like Brittney Griner). This could literally save your life (for example Singapore executes drug...
Check you don't have anything illegal in your bags before you go on holiday (so you don't end up like Brittney Griner). This could literally save your life (for example Singapore executes drug traffickers).
Don't own a firearm.
If you do own a firearm store your ammunition properly – i.e. in an ammunition case and keep it in a safe. I don't think just leaving random bullets lying around is really responsible.
Why wouldn't it be conducive to productive conversation? If you don't own a firearm then you are very unlikely to encounter this problem so I think it's reasonable to propose this as a solution.
Why wouldn't it be conducive to productive conversation? If you don't own a firearm then you are very unlikely to encounter this problem so I think it's reasonable to propose this as a solution.
I mean, yes? The benefits of owning a firearm are extremely low (and the expected utility of owning a firearm is probably negative) so I don't really think it's unreasonable to suggest people...
I mean, yes? The benefits of owning a firearm are extremely low (and the expected utility of owning a firearm is probably negative) so I don't really think it's unreasonable to suggest people shouldn't own them given the obvious risks to others.
Of course for other things (e.g. drugs) where the harms to others are reasonably low (and the direct harms to others are extremely small) I wouldn't apply this logic.
It may be unreasonable, but we find a lot of laws unreasonable when visiting other countries. Being fined for bringing an orange into the US without declaring it (say in your bag by accident)...
It may be unreasonable, but we find a lot of laws unreasonable when visiting other countries. Being fined for bringing an orange into the US without declaring it (say in your bag by accident) probably also feels really unreasonable. I don't think it is reasonable to insist that the country you're visiting is the problem. *
It's illegal to be queer in a number of places, I'm going to not travel to those places rather than risk someone figures out (it's not hard) that I'm bi.
*Edit, or it may be fine to complain or call them the problem, but that isn't gonna stop even the most unjust law.
That’s true and also exactly why the US State Department should put out a travel advisory. Make an official statement of “we won’t stop you from traveling there and we can’t stop them from...
That’s true and also exactly why the US State Department should put out a travel advisory. Make an official statement of “we won’t stop you from traveling there and we can’t stop them from enforcing their laws, but do be warned that they get unreasonable bees in their bonnet over <insert policies appropriate to the specific nation here>”
Something like that is almost more necessary for a Caribbean island nation than for warning against being gay in the middle east. The latter has permeated into public awareness, but Caribbean vacation destinations are often not thought of as fully independent nations—in fact, several even use the US Dollar as the de facto currency (though one would imagine driving on the British side would clue people in that they’ve left the USA).
I mean, I think it's because it's people in the majority population who are not used to having to be concerned about unjust treatment from the law and don't do the slightest bit of research before...
I mean, I think it's because it's people in the majority population who are not used to having to be concerned about unjust treatment from the law and don't do the slightest bit of research before they go who don't responsibly check their bags, peanut M&M or no are the ones not perceiving the Caribbean as legitimate countries (and territories in some cases) with laws needing to be followed.
I don't know all the situations where the State department warns US citizens but I think it's generally when it's unsafe based on identity or general safety, not based on "if you break the law they arrest you." But perhaps those warnings are already out there.
This comment section is one of the most American things I've seen!
We're mad other countries for having laws different from us? "It's too difficult to keep track of all my bullets." Come on. If you aren't a responsible gun owner, don't travel internationally. Problem solved.
In the Australian Army, having live rounds in your bag when you’re not supposed to is a guaranteed way to get charged. It’s poor performance, and you haven’t done your job as a soldier.
It blows my mind to see people passing this off as no big deal. It screams incompetence.
Exactly! I don't understand how, "I can't keep track of all of the parts of my deadly weapon." is any kind of logical excuse.
As @DefinitelyNotAFae kindly posted there are travel alerts concerning this topic going back to autumn 2023. It is also point number one under Local Laws warning about it.
While it might be too harsh of a punishment for the crime, you are a guest in their country and as such you automatically agree to follow their laws when entering their borders. If you don't like it or can't abide by their rules, then don't take vacation there.
As a queer person there are a lot of countries I can't travel to. Do I criticise it? Of course! Do I travel there? Hell no!
As outsiders it is not our place to dictate how they govern themselves.
This seems to be a lesson more and more Americans are learning the hard way as international travel becomes more popular. We need to learn their laws and respect them before traveling. Ignorance isn't an excuse when Google is an option.
It genuinely surprises me the number of people here who think a stray bullet or two in a bag is 'no big deal', and not in a good way. I've owned firearms, and spent plenty of time at the range. Going out plinking is a lot of fun. At no point have I ever, ever casually mixed bullets and bags, or thought nbd about loose rounds. The casualness is shameful.
I had a round rolling around in the floorboard of my car the other day where it fell out of my range bag. Lock me up. I'm irresponsible.
I don't want you locked up.
But I stand by what I said. Loose rounds are irresponsible, and the reaction should be 'I fucked up, and here is what I will change to make sure this doesn't happen again', not a shrug and a whatever. Bullets aren't a stray french fry or a random pen.
"Bullets aren't a stray french fry or a random pen."
They are not but I carry a firearm every day. They are a part of life for me. Firearm safety is an important and serious topic. However, it's also not very well represented in this thread. Leaving an unattended loaded firearm around a toddler is not the moral equivalent of having a loose round from a broken box of ammunition get lost in a bag.
In general though I agree that responsible handling firearms is an important issue which is why training is so important. This is especially true for new firearm owners who have little to no experience.
Having plinked with a 22 a couple times and locking it in your basement for 15 years is just fundamentally not the same thing as carrying a defensive pistol on your person every day. I'm not implying you specifically do or don't have that experience but I can tell you that a lot of the very opinionated commentors here do not.
While I agree with you that ammunition should be stored properly and not rolling around on my floorboard (oops), it's also true that a single round of ammunition is not inherently super dangerous. Even if you did something phenomenally stupid like hold a lighter to the primer or strike it with a nail it's unlikely to hospitalize someone. Perhaps a large rifle round might do some serious damage to your hand but without a chamber to contain and direct the force it's just not as deadly you might think. The round is just an object. It does not have any inherent moral qualities and it won't go off on its own without a serious amount of molestation.
The bullet itself isn't that dangerous, but if you want redundancy in your gun safety strategy, loose ammo is another point of failure. What if you are cleaning your gun and leave it unattended for a while because you know it's unloaded, and the magazine is locked away. 99.9% of the time that may not end in disaster, but what if a child happened to find a loose round in the car that they kept to themselves. Now there's a good chance for something to go wrong.
If you aren't strict about locking up ammo, you can only rely on properly securing your gun to prevent tragedy. If a mistake is made there it's potentially an unsecured loaded gun. If both ammo and firearms are locked up and accounted for, two mistakes need to be made for someone to get their hands on a loaded gun.
Ya you are not wrong. That's why it's such a serious topic. However, not everyone has kids and everyone's circumstances are different. My daily carry spends no time in the safe. If I needed it while at home there is no time to open a safe in that circumstance and thus it has a good reason to be where it is. I could understand accidentally letting a round fall off my night stand because I took the round out of the chamber and it rolled into a bag. The thought of making a procedural mistake and going to prison over it because of the politicization of the issue is frightening to me and every other cc I know.
That is not an idightment of the responsibility of gun owners, who are in my experience extraordinarily responsible, it's just a reality of day to day handling and use of a firearm. While responsible storage is important it's not a tier 1 safety issue because a spare round rolling around is not an inherent danger by itself. It will always take a back seat to the 4 rules of gun safety because you just don't have that luxury when handling a firearm. While both the round and the gun are not inherently dangerous by themselves you treat them differently , if you know what you are talking about, because you always treat a firearm as though it were loaded. It's literally the first thing you are taught about handling a firearm and with good reason.
I used to carry concealed when I did volunteer work that put me in dangerous situations. I don't recall ever having loose ammo around, nor do I really understand how that would happen. Why have loose ammo at all, vs loaded magazines? Why would you clear the bullet from the chamber and leave the bullet loose, or take bullets from a magazine? Were you carrying boxes of ammo with you and one for loose? Loading or unloading magazines in the car?
It's just sloppy to lose track of ammo. The rigor and routine that go into safe gun handling should preclude it. That should include being at the range with friends with many boxes of ammo. It's not that bullets are dangerous on their own, it's that it indicates a lack of care in the management of the firearm.
While I agree it's not the end of the world, I disagree that it should be hand waived away just because controlling the gun is more important. Part of how you control the gun is having a structured set of rules for how and when you manage the gun.
I will say that I also fly a lot, and I still completely empty my bags that I travel with to make sure there are no surprises. If you own guns, its double important to be careful with your bags.
I have no interest in ever owning a gun, but these questions seem to be pretty simply answered. If you're going to the range and your magazines hold 15 bullets, you may not have the 34 magazines necessary to hold the 500 bullets that come loose in a cardboard box. It's pretty easy for something to fall out of one of those boxes and it's going to be nearly impossible to realize what happened. Even if you notice you only fired 499 rounds, you'd likely think it was an error at the factory.
I'm not "defending" someone who flies with a bullet, but it seems like an comprehensible, if stupid, mistake. It just seems extreme to jail someone over it. Fine them (harshly), go through all their bags, and deny them entry if you want; I'd be all for that. But actually sending them to jail over a bullet or two seems excessive. I understand the motivation that it only takes one bullet to kill someone, but jail time for just one seems worse for someone who made an innocent mistake but probably not much of a factor for someone who was planning on killing someone.
I can see the range situation, though I generally view it as sloppy as well. I was just at the range with friends, and fired many rounds of different calibers. We kept the boxes in a range bag, and didn't leave any loose ammo outside of the bag, which securely zips shut.
However, the person I replied to was saying that daily carry makes it easy to lose bullets, and that is what I was directly addressing. You shouldn't be losing bullets through carrying your firearm throughout the day.
Again, I say this as someone who grew up hunting and fishing, who has a gun safe with a half dozen guns, and who used to concealed carry.
Edit: and to be clear, I'm not saying a loose bullet in a range bag is sloppy either. That's the point of the range bag, to keep it all together. But don't fly with your range bag without clearing it of bullets.
Yes, flying with your range bag would be idiotic even without the risk of stray bullets because it's probably covered with gunpowder residue.
Think of the k9 friends you would make!
I will say, I've had residue detected when going through screening. They just did a manual pat down and check of the bags. It wasn't much of a hassle. That must have been 20 years ago though.
Just to throw out there, revolvers are a somewhat popular carry weapon and do not have magazines. Speed loaders and moon clips exist but the one person I met who carried one didn’t use either and didn’t really know about them
Revolvers are a bit of an odd one out, and like you, I touched on speed loaders in a different comment. But my advice to someone daily carrying a revolver is that if you really need to reload, and you don't have a speed loader, there's a good chance you won't have time in an actual conflict.
That being said, you can buy small caliber rounds in boxes of 50 or 25 that have a plastic keeper for the individual bullets, so even in the ill-advised situation that someone is keeping a box of ammo in their purse or glove compartment, it shouldn't be too difficult to keep them organized and accounted for.
Just my two cents though.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you have written here. I don't recall advocating for leaving rounds laying around but there are many reasons to remove a round from your carry guns chamber from cleaning to dry fire practice. Ofc you should keep track of it.
However, in the hypothetical scenario presented of leaving the room while cleaning the gun and having a spare round not secured, the major issue is leaving the firearm unattended. The spare round is a contributing factor but every firearm owner I know would prioritize the safe handling of the firearm over that of the spare round. It's more dangerous because it cannot be easily assessed to be shown to be in a safe condition.
You should never assume that it's safe to leave a firearm unattended with a child around. Accidents happen and remembering that is an important part of firearm handling. When I pickup a firearm I always visually or physically inspect the chamber and feed mechanism. I don't just assume all the rounds are in the safe.
I’ve read this whole sub-thread and just wanted to add- be more careful, man. Carrying daily normalizes it to you, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay. Keep your ammo secure. Always. Don’t try and explain away why it’s fine. It’s not. Swap out like if there was loose powder on the floor of your cab, or a big pile of knives.
Being around and using firearms and rounds a lot means you have to be more vigilant, not less.
It's just not realistic to suggest a system where nobody ever makes a mistake. Layering procedures and systems makes for proper firearm safety. The 4 rules of gun safety are the fundamentally most important part of firearm ownership.
Worrying that a round came out of my range bag and rolled under the seat and I didn't notice is unreasonable. It's an inanimate object that can't harm anyone unless seriously molested or paired with a firearm. I can assure you that I am very serious about firearm safety. Part of safely handling them is knowing where and how to be most vigilant.
To fire the gun you need a round and the firearm itself. However those two objects are not of equal importance to the safety of yourself and the people around you. The round is easy to assess at a glance but the firearm cannot have its condition assessed without a visual or tactile inspection of the chamber which requires opening the action and inspecting the feeding mechanism.
The delta in the time and handling it takes to assess the firearm inherently makes it more dangerous and of a higher priority. The reason that the round in the floorboard is an understandable (read not necessarily negligent) circumstance is because I don't keep a gun under my car seat. It's in a holster on my person, in my night stand when I sleep or it's in a safe.
The reason I have left so many replies in this thread is to share knowledge of safe and responsible firearm ownership and handling. There was, at the time initially commented, a bunch of commentators in this thread that were suggesting that these people deserved jail for the criminal negligence of having a spare round of ammunition end up in a travel bag. It's just fundamentally not true and it stems from a serious misunderstanding of how to safely handle and keep firearms.
I don't know that anyone thinks that "jail" is "deserved" for this, particularly 12 years in prison." It just that it's incumbent on the person traveling to ensure they follow the laws of the country they're going to, even if the law is unreasonable. Or alternatively, not to travel there.
I think this law is an overreaction, but I don't live there and don't know the context of why it was made. I also know some folks are getting lesser sentences. But I would not travel with the possibility of lose ammo, cannabis, queer media, whatever if it would get me arrested for 12 years or longer. And I'd not travel to countries that have such zero tolerance policies.
Yeah, not sure that I disagree with anything you have said. It's just the reality of the world that we live in that an honest mistake can get you locked up like a violent criminal for over a decade. A serious amount of care is indeed warranted.
If anything useful can come out of it, perhaps folks broadly will have more empathy for those that end up in such sentences in our prison system. But I don't know that it will change there either.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the only person who has explicitly stated that someone who has loose ammo should go to jail is you, and you did so facetiously. The group you are counter arguing with suggested two things: don't travel to countries and break their laws, and be careful with your ammo even when you're at home.
Yes, I can read in-between the lines. I'm not ignorant of what people mean when they say well you should have followed the law or that gun owners shouldn't travel to the rest of the "civilized" world.
The majority of the people I have had polite exchanges with are just misinformed about an over politicized issue. It's understandable and I'm glad that they were receptive to at least reading what I wrote. Nothing about how I manage my firearms is negligent. Implying that I am because I admitted to a round of ammunition finding its way under my car seat is unreasonable. It is not negligent to accept that you should expect to lose track of a few rounds in your life.
Some of those people may own a gun in their future and I hope they take the time to learn about the 4 rules of gun safety and why the firearm is so important in keeping yourself and others safe. To not learn them and how to apply them to safe gun handling is in fact negligent. Losing track of a round is not.
Clearly, the government of Turks and Caicos disagrees with you… as do I.
Be well.
Same to you.
I have been entertained by this thread. Thank you. There’s only one lesson here, IMO, and it’s about respect. (For countries and guns.)
Now for my jab. All the explaining away and minimizing and reframing and subject-changing and straw-man arguments that the gun/hunting enthusiasts are blowing up this thread with… well, draw your own conclusions- but I’ll pull out my only Shakespeare reference.
Methinks thou doth protest too much.
I was gifted an NRA membership at 14 by my grandfather who took me to the range regularly. My guns are stowed in the closet across the room. I’ve hunted small game and deer. I’ve cleaned a deer and ate the liver that night.
And I feel very strongly that gun culture is bloated with fetishistic displaced impotence and anger. It’s not a true representation of any kind of heritage, it’s a poor choice of hobby, and it is very attractive to the people most in need of something else… very much else… but there are few comparable alternatives.
Where else is there an extracurricular that offers the low cost, the thrill, the benefits (meat, pelts, trophies, awards), and the identity?
It’s a “culture” for “men” who feel as though they have no agency in the world. They get to join a group that offers the seductive drug in the power to kill… while having an identity that rationalizes feeling like a maligned minority.
The closest I can think of is sports, but that falls way short.
People ruin lots and lots of things. Hunting and guns and that culture is a bastion of people of poor character clinging fiercely to that identity. It’s a wellspring for so many of the worst parts of US culture. I grew up in it and pulled away from it and clearly I have a hard time not judging those that throw themselves into it. This has nothing to do with the morality of hunting. I’m absolutely fine with that, and in fact it’s a needed thing for proper herd and population management sometimes. There’s a part of me that wouldn’t mind going hunting actually… except for the hunters. Most of them probably shouldn’t have a gun, let alone six.
I’m going to hit publish on this, but am aware it’s pretty damning and negative. I’ve made a few passes to try and balance it, but it’s difficult because I’m thinking about the hunters I know- most of them are the worst of my family members and their friends and clubs… and I just don’t like them.
I know some incredibly kind and responsible hunters as well. They struggle with many of the same issues I’ve outlined above as well when I’ve managed to talk with them about this topic. As evidence of this, I personally know of other former hunters that don’t hunt because of the hunters that are out there hunting these days. It’s straight up not safe in most of the state lands above the 46th parallel in Michigan on the opening day of deer season.
Who packs a suitcase for a vacation and thinks, “Gotta make sure I pack my ammunition!” I find it very difficult to believe it was an honest mistake. Combine that will all the signs at airport security that say “Don’t bring a firearm through or you’ll be fined/arrested”
I could absolutely see accidentally carrying a few bullets. Note, they weren't arrested for having guns, they were arrested for having bullets.
What you're missing is that people bring more than just big suitcases. They also bring purses and backpacks that serve dual duty. I myself when traveling bring the exact same backpack I wear on a daily basis.
I've accidentally left contraban in my backpack on several occasions. Mostly just a can of soda that I forgot about and didn't see at the bottom of my bag. I don't own a firearm, so I've never left a gun or ammo in my bag.
However, if someone did regularly carry a gun in their bag or purse, this would be an easy mistake to make. If you own a firearm, you're primarily concerned about keeping track of the gun itself. The gun is what's dangerous. The gun is what you need to make sure you don't try to take to the airport. I could easily see someone focusing on that and accidently leaving a few bullets in a side pocket.
If someone is a gun owner and regularly carries it, a few forgotten bullets in a bag seems like a very easy mistake to make.
Is it really common to just carry loose bullets around? I have no idea but that feels odd to me.
I think in a world where I have to go through my entire bags three times to be sure there's not stray nail clippers in a pocket or scissors in my knitting and have to empty my water bottle at the entrance to the airport so I can fill it up again past security, it's odd to not check thoroughly for something that doesn't just get confiscated but leads to your arrest.
It just seems like an irresponsible habit to not know where your ammo is. Aren’t you supposed to keep your ammo locked up separately from your guns? A few loose rounds may seem innocuous, but it’s just one less thing someone needs to collect to hurt someone.
When being stored, yes but you would generally transport them together and it’s very possible for one or two to fall out without realizing it
When you have 13 rounds in a magazine, you’ll never notice if one or two is missing, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that every single person ever will check their bags for a stray round. Most people should if they knew a gun was in there, but if you packed the morning of your vacation and were in a rush are you going to be thinking about that?
I don’t own a gun and have never had a concealed carry permit, but I don’t know when you would ever need more than a full magazine for a self defense weapon. It seems like any real world self defense scenario would be decided in a few rounds, so needing to reload wouldn’t be necessary.
If you load your gun before you leave your house, why would you need to have any spare ammo floating around your bag?
Keep in mind there are different reasons to leave the house with a gun, and most reasons other than self defense would typically warrant packing and bringing a bunch of ammo with you, such as hunting or a range day
For range days to cut down on ammo packaging bulk, I’ll store my ammo in magazines so everything packs away neater versus if it was kept in the box. For hunting (assuming it’s pest hunting where the goal is to drop the animal versus getting a clean kill shot to preserve meat) I’ll do the same
If you're going to the range, depending on how many people are going with you, etc.. you might have 100's or 1000's of rounds with you. Some people just toss boxes of ammo in a bag or backpack, and go. Boxes fall apart, some ammo is just loose in boxes. For instance, .22 rounds come in boxes of 500'ish commonly, and they are just thrown in the box; They aren't in neat plastic holders like high powered rifle rounds, etc. If a gun jams, and you eject the round that caused the jam, a person may not place that round back into the box, but throw it in their bag.
If someone regularly shoots as a hobby, it is very common to have loose rounds in bags, backpacks, and/or cases they take shooting.
Then they use that same backpack for a trip... voila.. loose bullets.
My cousin was in the same situation. He's extremely responsible. He and his wife were in India to adopt their youngest daughter (she's an absolute angel) and he failed to notice two .22 rounds in his bag. They live in rual Colorado and he shoots varmient around his house. A .22 is a very small bullet often used for target practice. Long story short: Indian customs found them in the crease at the bottom of his backpack, he had no idea, was arrested, and had to spend $20k to work it all out while his wife went on to adopt their kid alone
It makes for a great story now but was quite the stressful ordeal the time.
As a gun owner, I do not understand how ammo just "falls out."
As a non gun owner, isn't it usually just in a flimsy cardboard box? Couldn't it easily just fall out while going to the range?
It can be, but that wasn't the context being given in SirNut's comment. He was talking about ammo being missing from a magazine.
All of the ammo that I have ever seen has come in rigid, plastic boxes. I've never been in a gun store, though, I've only seen ammo at ranges and in many gun owner's homes.
https://images.app.goo.gl/asCfgynnJCnN3kry8
Fair enough.
I can see this happening for people who use the same bag (eg a backpack or small duffle) for going to the range and traveling. I've absolutely had boxes of ammo break open in my bag and individual rounds become loose. They're small and can hide in the folds of your bag.
That being said, I have a dedicated bag for that stuff so this doesn't happen to me. But I agree that it's still a serious responsibility.
I guess that makes sense, I just empty my bags entirely before flying since I fly so rarely they always have something that'd be illegal to bring on in them, even just a small bottle of water.
Gotcha. I fly enough (1-2x a month) that I don't do that. Very very rarely, I've gotten to airport security and realized that I've forgotten something. I had a pair of scissors confiscated that I didn't realize I had (oddly, on my return trip since they missed it on the way out), and I've had a small amount of water in my bottle that I didn't notice when I checked. Both times, no big deal - I let them keep the scissors, and I emptied my dangerous water into the trash can 3 ft away from everyone.
I get that bullets should be treated more seriously than scissors, water, nail clippers, etc. But a couple loose rounds of ammo, while certainly irresponsible, is still a far cry from actually trying to sneak a firearm through security.
And I get I'm probably more anxious than others on it, it's just who I am as a planner. But if country A considers ammo to be equivalent of a firearm (and I've definitely seen reports of people who've accidentally brought their guns too, not even trying to sneak it past), I'm gonna try harder to not bring the thing getting arrested. If I flew regularly, I'd probably keep a flights only shoulder/laptop bag rather than try to swap my usual shoulder bag back and forth.
Seems pretty stupid to do that. Can't be fun to get randomly inspected and have them find traces of gunpowder.
Yeah, I don't think it's a great idea to use the same bag. Firearms aren't cheap, so the cost of an additional bag for that stuff seems like cheap insurance against something like that. But the 'traces of gunpowder' thing probably isn't a big deal. You're allowed to check firearms in your checked luggage. And there are absolutely times where I've gone to the range in the morning and flown out in the evening. If you get your hands swabbed and that comes up, you're just subject to a little additional screening. I've personally never set anything off due to that, but it's certainly not unprecedented.
One time, I did get swabbed coming back from a trip (no firearm involvement) and they said that my bag or something "tested positive for explosives". No idea what would've caused that, but all they made me do is show them that my electronic devices were functional and they ran them through again separately, and then I was on my way. So setting off those tests seems to be just as much security theater as the rest of the screening process.
Not intentionally, but if there were some loose they really can be quite small, and even get tucked into the cracks/flaps/fabric etc
Think of it like if a few peanut M&M sized things were floating around your bag (assuming these are 9mm). You might have to turn the thing inside out to get them all out, but since again they’re easily missed you might not even realize that you have some floating around
It’s super easy to assume this is an irresponsible gun owner, which if there was a full magazine or an entire gun then yes I would agree. If it was a few bullets however, it’s entirely possible that it was a simple mistake (unless it was a larger rifle caliber, which is way harder to miss)
When I’m packing, I don’t actively check for contraband that was already in my luggage. I generally just check what I’m packing to be sure it’s safe to fly
With that being said, I also have totally separate gun bags from my personal bags, but I could see people using the same bags for both purposes
This may be where I differ; I'm always thoroughly checking my bags because I don't fly regularly, and they always have stuff I shouldn't have in them. A pocket knife, fidget putty (not sure of the legality but wouldn't risk), small scissors, etc. I can be more anxious about that sort of thing but I'm not risking arrest either, just my stuff going in the bin full of dangerous items.
I'd find every peanut M&M if I risked arrest for it, I guess is what I'm saying.
So let’s say that you have one peanut unaccounted for. What would you do?
Keep searching for endless hours with no luck? Buy a brand new bag to guarantee there is no missing peanut in there?
Or assume it fell out and carry on with your packing?
I’m going to guess it’s the latter, as the first are not appropriate responses imo
Keep in mind that smaller caliber rounds can theoretically fall into nooks and crannies where locating them can be difficult, especially if you’re older and don’t have as great of vision, or you’re less mobile and lack the dexterity to turn your bag inside out
Now with all this being said by no means am I saying it’s okay to leave ammo in a bag you’re flying with intentionally as that would be idiotic. All I’m saying it’s that this is not as black and white as many seem to think
No I mean, I literally turn my bags inside out and empty them before packing because losing, say, an actual M&M in there is gonna turn my bag into a melted chocolate mess if I don't. (So yeah if I was pretty sure I'd dropped candy in there I would?) I do worry about someone carrying a firearm with that level of vision loss/dexterity loss as well but I'm not saying that they inherently shouldn't nor am I trying to open that can of invertebrates.
I'm just saying if I carried ammo, or cannabis, or whatever that would get me arrested on my vacation, I'd absolutely bring an entirely different bag if I couldn't be sure it was cleared. So yeah I'm not really treating the "ammo" portion of this differently, it's the "contraband that could get you arrested" part considering I'm thorough about it for "things that will make the TSA give me shit" level of contraband.
I mean if the risk is 20k USD fine and developing country jail time....yes, yes I am going to spend 150-300 bucks on a nice Timbuk2 or Chrome bag for my carry on only (no guns!) carry on bag.
Unfortunately, I think it is. It’s a “gun culture” thing. Or some probably think of it as a “hunting culture” thing. I have family that hunt, and there are regularly shells mixed into bowls with loose change, or rolling around in the back of junk drawers. When we start questioning the weird shit we normalize… well… the rabbit holes to fall down might just surprise a lot of people.
I'm probably preaching to the choir, but that level of carelessness is insane to me. Mishandling of firearms or ammunition should be grounds for remedial firearm training or else loose your right to own either, full stop. Second offense after remedial training is a total loss of firearm ownership. Letting prosecutors decide if they want to persue charges (or if they are misdemeanors or felonies) for negligent use of firearms is just stupid to me. Take it to court, let it be sorted out there was actual negligence. If ever there was a purpose for mandatory minimums in courts, firearm safety is it. Not to punish but to lead by example in seriousness. I believe firearm culture is passed from the top down. If the State takes firearms serious and severely, so will gun-owners. Our casual attitude about firearms is a destructive feedback loop - it is passed from leaders to citizens. Citizens become leaders who are equally laissez-faire. I'm all about 2a but strongly desire more common-sense approaches to firearm regulations, especially for those who are so careless with such a huge responsibility.
As a long-time gun owner, keeping track of ammunition is just as important as keeping track of the firearm itself. But then again, I learned about handling firearms from my grandfather, who was a firearms instructor, and firearm safety was further re-enforced by my military service where unholy hell would be visited upon our unit if even a single piece of brass could not be accounted for (in garrison, obviously we didn't need to collect brass if we fired in anger downrange).
Perhaps I've internalized this idea of ammunition accountability and it's not as pervasive as I've previously assumed, but it seems preposterous to me forget where you've stored your ammunition. Equally insane not to police your bags after transport to make sure there's no loose brass or ammo.
What are the experiences of casual gun owners?
I agree that gun owners should be expected to keep track of every bullet. Some mandatory fines and firearms safety training make a lot of sense. However, the people in this article are facing mandatory minimum 12 YEAR jail sentences. When you were in the military, would they have thrown you in Leavenworth for a decade for misplacing a couple of rounds?
That's the real problem here. We punish people all the time for things that can be minor lapses in judgment. Speeding tickets come to mind. But there's a reason we don't give decade-long prison sentences for casual speeding.
Misplacing a bullet may not be that big of a deal here, but the fact of the matter is that this isn't just misplacement. Intentional or not, we are talking about someone smuggling weapons into the country. It's a harsh penalty because it's a pretty big crime.
That being said, I'm very much against mandatory minimums, and this is the perfect example of the problem they represent.
I think we're in agreement. I didn't mention prison or jail time in my post because the point isn't to punish them but remove the problem they pose. The easiest way to do that is to remove their right to own firearms if they incur multiple offenses.
I would never want someone to suffer in our correctional facilities, especially over something like a lapse of judgement. We give them the benefit of the doubt: if negligence was found, we give them proper training to prevent negligent behavior in the future. If they have another lapse in judgement even after training, they clearly don't possess enough judgement or sense to bear the responsibility of firearm ownership.
We apply this same mindset to violent offenders. If you're convicted of domestic abuse, for instance, you can't own firearms because you've proven to have too poor of judgement to be trusted with them.
My logic is to apply the same philosophy here with a built-in mechanism to provide for correcting the unwanted behavior before removing their right completely.
So the point is not to punish. Correct by providing training. If they can't be trained, remove their guns. They never have to see the inside of a prison or jail.
Edit: I also might just be overzealous with ammunition accountability - I'm fully aware that what's ingrained in me might not be the norm and the majority might believe that it shouldn't be the norm. I honestly don't know because the idea that people might not care about the whereabouts of their ammo is a new concept to me. Perhaps it isn't as big a deal to society at large as it is to me.
I think you should have a general awareness of where your ammo is, but I do think it’s unreasonable to expect every single gun owner to think “okay, I loaded 13 rounds in my magazine but I didn’t end up using that one today. When I get home I will unload the magazine and count to be sure they’re all there”
Personally I have a good idea of where my ammo is, but I 100% do not count my ammunition when I get home. I do search my bags to be sure there are no stray rounds, but even still if one disappears am I going to start pulling hairs searching through my bag for it until located? Very unlikely, unless it’s a more expensive cartridge ($1+/round)
It's similar to a small baggie of weed with also similar consequences that surely you'd at least double check though.
Except that attempting to smuggle (well transporting without a license) arms into a country is something the police usually take pretty seriously. Letting everyone off with a "oh well it was an innocent mistake" seems like a sure-fire recipe to effectively decriminalise smuggling arms.
Confiscating the bullets and denying entry would be both reasonable and not merely shrugging it off. It's like when nations go power-tripping over weed residue on the bottom of someone's shoes.
Barring entry is a reasonable alternative, but if you're a small island state "we'll never give you a visa" isn't probably the threat that it is if you are e.g. a Schengen country where it's "no more trips to Europe".
Bullets are way smaller than a bag of weed though, less smelly, and their brass casing allows them to fall deeper into a bag (as opposed to a plastic baggy that’s going to get caught on things and resist getting buried)
Again though depending on the size of the caliber bullets can be significantly smaller than most bags of weed
Standard 9mm ammo dimensions are 9x19mm fyi
I've concealed carried at times in the past. There is a big difference between Cheerios at the bottom of a purse, and bullets. You really shouldn't treat your regular backpack or purse like a range bag, and you really shouldn't daily carry loose bullets. They come in neatly organized boxes for a reason, magazines are a thing, and even revolvers have quick loaders.
I've forgotten a can of cold brew coffee in my bag at the airport, but the standard of care you should give drinks and guns and ammo is different. Even if for no other reason than the consequence of having it unexpectedly be in a bag at the airport.
Yes, bullets aren't going to hurt anyone on their own. But losing track of bullets is a sign of a sloppy or careless gun owner.
Edit: and yes, if you don't have a dedicated range bag and lose bullets in your backpack, then you should still know to do a full unload of your bag before packing.
I find it bizarre that people would keep bullets in a purse or backpack.
When I was into shooting, my gun and its bullets stayed in their case and only came out at the place I intended to use them.
The idea that people will casually keep a gun, ammunition, or both in a purse or backpack is downright scary to me. You don't need these things when you go out for groceries, all you're doing is creating a liability.
That's how ingrained gun culture is in the US. Ammo is so commonplace for a large percentage of the population that there's bound to be people who inadvertently travel to foreign countries with it. Still stupid and reckless, I'm just not surprised in the slightest at these headlines. We're talking about a country where a large number of state governments are trying to arm teachers in classrooms after all.
I've found live rounds/bullets on the ground before, and not necessarily where you might expect them (outside a shooting range or gun store or particularly "dangerous" part of town, for example). I live in a mid- to large-sized Midwestern city.
So yeah, your observation is correct. We have gun culture so ingrained in us that it is not that unexpected.
That said, I find the obsession with guns rather off-putting and honestly more than a little scary, and I'm born and bred American.
I'm right there with ya. I've shot a gun one time in my whole life and would never own one considering the significantly increased risk of being a victim of violent gun-related crime or of committing suicide. There was an article posted to Tildes recently about a teenage boy who shot himself after he was scammed into sending nude photos and blackmailed with them. He was in crisis and made a decision he couldn't take back, enabled by the accessibility of his father's hand gun.
I used to own a few guns and go shooting regularly, but the way everyone else with guns fetishizes them to an absurd degree and makes it the cornerstone of their personality permanently put me off the hobby. It seems to short-circuit their capacity for rational thinking.
I have zero problem with people exercising their constitutional rights to bear and own "arms." (We could get into a huge discussion on rather or not modern day "arms" are anything the framers would've allowed but that is a whole other thing). I have shot guns before and it is pretty fun. I get the appeal of the devices. I think shooting sports are great and hunting is an important skill to know. I would never want to tell someone they can't defend their home or family or property to a reasonable degree (we don't allow people to set up booby-traps, for example).
That said...
I do have a problem with the fact that we, as a country, can't even get to the point that we want some common sense things like universal background checks and red flag laws. I'm at least glad some progress has been made against the "gun show loophole" (which is, again, something some gun owners claim is not a real thing) but as usual progress is slow there.
I have a problem with the fact that people can go out and buy military grade weapons (again, something the gun culture says isn't a real thing - but bump stocks and other items to turn semi-automatic into automatic weapons exist) and keep them at home. On top of that I don't find any argument convincing that an assault rifle is something your typical citizen needs - we're not going to rise up against the military and even if people do they will not be very successful in the short term. The military has drones. There are probably degrees to which people would agree or disagree on this point. I can also see the argument that single shot assault rifles are closer to the original idea of "arms" vs a handgun with a clip but as it stands aftermarket parts make this a moot point, IMO.
I have a problem with the fact that an electronic database of gun owners is currently illegal in this country. (Again, another point that the gun culture has led people to believe will mean that their guns will get taken away.) We already have large databases of the population. Your driver's license doesn't get taken away because you are in a database, UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL. The same should be for guns.
I have a huge problem with the fact that my 6 year old is concerned with gun violence because they have active shooter drills at their school. I have a huge problem with the fact that we have to get them a counselor so they can learn to deal with their fears about gun violence in a productive manner. I hate that they have to even think about this kind of thing, and there's not much we can do as parents other than to be supportive and get them the help we can. Children in almost any other country on earth do not deal with this at their age, unless they are living in a "war torn" nation.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here and deep in the comments on this thread but I had to vent a bit I guess.
I find it a bit absurd how a substantial number of americans appear to think that the application of the laws in this case is absurd, since it could mistakenly happen to gunowners and their gun laws are less strict than in most countries, but if the reverse were to happen with some sort of drug thats illegal in the US, the result would basically be the same, but no one would bat an eye.
lol even the opposite is true too. I'm a regular cannabis user, and travel to Asia relatively frequently. I'm turning out my bags every time to make sure I don't have a random pen or edibles in there so I don't get executed or publicly whipped. Or I just get a new bag.
This was a common scam in the Phillipines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninoy_Aquino_International_Airport_bullet_planting_scandal
You get a bullet in the suitcase between the plane and baggage collection (you can open any zipper with a ballpoint pen) and extort the passenger when they pass through immigration / customs.
What would happen if a foreigner was caught arriving at the US via air travel with ammunition in their bag?
While looking for this I found multiple stories of "American with ammo arrested in" Taiwan, Jamica, Mexico. But nothing flipped around.
This looks like it was departures but the man isn't identified
Anti-aircraft ammo found in checked bag, in a thermos
It seems like a) carrying around loose ammo is a uniquely American experience, b) the TSA doesn't take it super seriously when they find it (at least when you're not perceived for other reasons to be a terrorist), c) (some) Americans are thus incredibly blasé about it when going to other countries despite it being very abnormal to carry weapons and ammo there.
Yes.
I was really asking because reciprocity is a concept in international relations and some countries have it coded in laws of visa reciprocity. They will impose on American citizens the same restrictions the US imposes on their citizens. So, under that principle, prosecuting an American in that circumstance in Turks and Caicos would be considered more permissible if the US did the same to citizens of Turks and Caicos.
Or should I say UK citizens? I'm a bit confused on their status.
It isn't a reciprocity thing, afaict it's a "zero tolerance" for anyone having any guns or ammo who doesn't have a permit thing.
It's hard to have reciprocity for American gun culture. Their citizens don't carry guns or ammo.
So, misplacing two stray .22 bullets.
Irresponsible? Yes.
Warranting foreign imprisonment for up to 12 years? Cruel and unhinged.
I don't think homosexuality should be illegal anywhere but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be an idiot to travel somewhere where it was while there was a travel advisory about it and start making out with my wife.
It's possible for the punishment to be cruel and too strict and for the people who brought loose ammo with them to be doing something dumb.
And now imagine being imprisoned for 12 years for having a misplaced rainbow flag in your luggage.
And it would be the same situation -- the punishment is cruel and doesn't fit the crime, but I would have been an idiot to travel somewhere where that's a potential consequence without being way more vigilant about what's in my bag.
How soon until the US State Department helps them secure their borders (and keep American citizens out of their prisons) by issuing a travel advisory?
If these are all over one or two bullets, it absolutely is a petty power trip and not a legitimate attempt to stop the flow of ingredients for gun violence.
Running airport security on this basis of small exceptions for things people think might be innocent mistakes is a recipe for disaster (not to mention this would create a very easy avenue for arms smugglers to bring ammunition into the country). I think it's pretty reasonable to expect people to check their luggage to make sure that they don't have any bullets before they go on holiday.
Did you not see the other discussion here on how many types of bullets easily can hide in folds in the fabric? Confiscating the bullets is the obvious course of action for security. Denying entry is also plenty reasonable. Jail time is not.
Including #2 on that list doesn't seem conducive to productive conversation.
Why wouldn't it be conducive to productive conversation? If you don't own a firearm then you are very unlikely to encounter this problem so I think it's reasonable to propose this as a solution.
It comes off as “so don’t have that problem”
I mean, yes? The benefits of owning a firearm are extremely low (and the expected utility of owning a firearm is probably negative) so I don't really think it's unreasonable to suggest people shouldn't own them given the obvious risks to others.
Of course for other things (e.g. drugs) where the harms to others are reasonably low (and the direct harms to others are extremely small) I wouldn't apply this logic.
It may be unreasonable, but we find a lot of laws unreasonable when visiting other countries. Being fined for bringing an orange into the US without declaring it (say in your bag by accident) probably also feels really unreasonable. I don't think it is reasonable to insist that the country you're visiting is the problem. *
It's illegal to be queer in a number of places, I'm going to not travel to those places rather than risk someone figures out (it's not hard) that I'm bi.
*Edit, or it may be fine to complain or call them the problem, but that isn't gonna stop even the most unjust law.
That’s true and also exactly why the US State Department should put out a travel advisory. Make an official statement of “we won’t stop you from traveling there and we can’t stop them from enforcing their laws, but do be warned that they get unreasonable bees in their bonnet over <insert policies appropriate to the specific nation here>”
Something like that is almost more necessary for a Caribbean island nation than for warning against being gay in the middle east. The latter has permeated into public awareness, but Caribbean vacation destinations are often not thought of as fully independent nations—in fact, several even use the US Dollar as the de facto currency (though one would imagine driving on the British side would clue people in that they’ve left the USA).
I mean, I think it's because it's people in the majority population who are not used to having to be concerned about unjust treatment from the law and don't do the slightest bit of research before they go who don't responsibly check their bags, peanut M&M or no are the ones not perceiving the Caribbean as legitimate countries (and territories in some cases) with laws needing to be followed.
I don't know all the situations where the State department warns US citizens but I think it's generally when it's unsafe based on identity or general safety, not based on "if you break the law they arrest you." But perhaps those warnings are already out there.
Here's the one for this country/territory Turks and Caicos Travel Advisory
ETA the page that warns about the guns specifically. It's been up since April 24th, this time. (Been up before too) Advisory