Lost/losing the drive for friendship
I'm in my mid 20s and have had a pretty lonely life. I had a very lonely childhood, a less lonely but still fairly lonely adolescence, and again a very lonely time in college (in that case, because of a mix of mental hangups, the pandemic, personal circumstance that was a major drain on my time, and not managing all those things as optimally as I could have). At this point in my life, I essentially only have one friend, who I met a couple years ago and has since moved across the country.
I have more time on my hands now, am probably more socially adept than I used to be, but I find myself having lost or losing the drive to make friends. I guess I've gone so long without friends that I've lost sense at an emotional level of what the point even is. It's also friggin hard to meet people in the adult world and it seems like you have to put twice the energy to meet people that you vibe with half as much as when you were younger. I want to want to make friends, but it feels like I'd be setting myself up for more pain and disappointment by putting myself in that headspace. It also doesn't help that I'm pretty socially picky (not in a judgmental way, but I'd prefer a small circle of people I'm really close with over a large group that I'm not) and that I have a strong need to feel like the friends I make aren't "arbitrary", that they are the ones I am "meant" to be around. Has anyone experienced something similar or have any advice?
You're just going to have to have your ego overpower the id and superego. Having friends is incredibly important not just to quality of life, but also longevity of life. We know from studies that having social connections is incredibly important to your health. It's to the point where in having friends + drinking > not having friends and not drinking, despite how bad drinking is.
I think you should change the mindset to really put making and maintaining social connections high up in your priorities, the same way that someone who gets a diagnosis of a life-threatening diagnosis from a doctor would prioritize lifestyle changes to manage it.
Second, is also not to otherthink it. To make more friends, just maximize the amount of people you meet and talk to. The friendship will happen on its own. Not everyone is going to be friends with everyone. That's fine, and it's one of the issues with explicit friend-gaining meetups. Just talk to a lot of people and you'll find the ones that click probabilistically.
edit, a few hours later: I obviously am very emotional about this. Both alcohol and socialising are topics that I had/have huge problems with in my life. So, reading this line kinda triggered me.
This obviously was not meant as a personal attack - I'm sorry if I sound too 'angry'.
Nevertheless: please don't drink to solve your loneliness. It only makes everything worse.
I'll be frank: this is complete bullshit. I've seen the devastating effects of alcoholism plenty of times. I also have direct experience with alcoholism and loneliness. It sucks and sometimes it hurts. But I'm 16 years sober and I'd be dead if I had kept drinking.
Sure, alcohol can be a 'medication' that helps to be socially more open, and it helps to make connections. But it's also a poison that will fuck up your health, nurture depression and make you feel lonely and hopeless despite having friends. And that's still just the early days of alcoholism, before you completely loose your dignity.
For anybody struggling with alcohol reading stuff like "having friends + drinking > not having friends and not drinking" is dangerous and toxic.
Please don't trivialize alcohol like this, especially not to people that already struggle with life.
e: wording
I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through such a struggle, but this is a very uncharitable interpretation and unnecessarily hostile response. I can almost guarantee that stu was not suggesting that an alcoholic continue drinking with friends instead of maintaining sobriety. The majority of adults who drink alcohol neither suffer from alcohol use disorder nor have any other preexisting medical issues that make it particularly dangerous. While alcohol has some dangers and negative health impact for an average healthy adult when consumed responsibly, they are saying that is likely smaller in magnitude than the large positive impact of having friends. So, ordered in terms of benefit:
Yeah, only problem is that chronically lonely people who try to use alcohol as a crutch are primed to end up as alcoholics.
In my view it's not an "uncharitable interpretation", it's just the reality. I've seen too many people suffer endlessly due to alcohol. If you never had a problem with addiction, you have no clue what it does to families and individuals.
Suggesting to a lonely person to drink more alcohol to socialize is just fucking bonkers to me, especially in a place like Tildes.
But yeah, I'm too uncharitable right now, so I just close the tab.
I think you completely misunderstood what was suggested (or else I did). I don't think the suggestion was to drink alcohol to get friends. I think it was meant that, as risk factors go, drinking alcohol is a lower risk factor than being lonely. This to point out just how dangerous it is to be lonely in the long term and how important it is to seek out new friendships, not to suggest drinking alcohol.
Maybe I misunderstood. To me it felt as if this quote basically expressed "better to drink alcohol and socialize than being sober and being alone.", and I saw this as very misguided justification or advice to drink, in case someone has problems with making friends. And that immediately made me quite upset.
Sorry again for my reaction, if this was meant differently.
I think the original quote intended to say that it's better to drink a little and take the little help that can give socialising than to abstain.
For most people drinking is not a binary choice between alcoholism and abstention/sobriety. If it is that binary for you then obviously don't try and use it to help in any situation, but no matter the emotiveness of the subject for you it can be of some benefit to others.
A little rusty on my psychoanalysis.. what's this mean again?
My interpretation in this case is...
Id: Inherent automatic thought
Superego: Learned automatic thought
Ego: Conscious thought
So for this situation is maybe your id makes you not feel like going out to some event because the unknown can be scary, your superego makes you not feel like going out because you developed an aversion to social events after avoiding them for several years, so your ego needs to say "shut up, stupid automatic thoughts, socializing is the rational decision so I'm going."
Personally, I am so bad at this. I end up staying home often. It's a relatively new standing rule in my household that my partner and I should accept any invitations to hang out with friends unless there is a legitimate conflict.
Nobody knows, but it's provocative!
Where do you recommend talking to a lot of people?
I work from home and have no local coworkers, so that's out. I recently completed my degree and tried pretty hard to branch out and make connections (even though all courses were online), but I couldn't even get anyone to add me on LinkedIn. I've checked out Meetup and even though I live in a major suburb, a lot of the groups are pretty scammy (crypto, MLM, etc) and I didn't really find anything I'd have a true interest in. I'm a bit stumped at this point.
I’m a particular type of geek but I’ve personally had some great experiences making friends in tabletop gaming groups and pub trivia nights. My spouse, who is more of a reader than I, recommends silent (or not-so-silent) book clubs. Gathering with others who share an interest with you is a pretty solid first step.
Also, church? That’s a dicey proposition in all kinds of ways… but also a great way to meet people. I’m an exvangelical, nonbelieving heathen but I found a progressive church in my area that isn’t interested in shaming or reconverting me. I fell in with a great group of folks who share my politics — and other interests — and aren’t churchy in the least. Works for me, YMMV.
Honestly that last bit has been on my mind a lot. I'm an atheist, but I love the community that church can provide. If only there were some secular church...
Unitarian universalist or Quaker or Buddhist meditation center could work depending on the specific congregation
Alternately, I’ve heard good things about the American Humanist Association, which has local groups that meet to scratch this same social itch. I’m not involved with them personally but it could be a way to avoid the religious bits and prolonged awkward silence (looking at you, Quakers). I’m sure there are other similar orgs for non-Americans, I know lots of secular people everywhere are actively trying to bring back third places which is really what this whole conversation is about.
I read the start of this thread and thought "let me get to my computer to say good things about Quaker meetings!"
A little more than a year ago I had a social itch and thought a church might be okay, particularly in my neighborhood. In the Twin Cities, there are lots of options for very progressive and inclusive churches, and my neighborhood churches are no exception. But I also can't stand all the sermonizing, singing, dead dudes on crosses, etc. So I decided to go slightly further (still within 10 minute drive/15 minute bike) to the local Friends (Quaker) Meeting House.
Let me say: as an atheist that is just coming to talk, the 1 hour of silence is great. There are no idols or quotes (or really any decoration) on the walls. No preaching. Occasionally someone stands to say a piece, maybe 3 or 4 people over the course of an hour. No "sunday clothes" required. At least in the twin cities, very progressive and active in community. Followed by gathering/conversation in the basement with snacks, which is the part I'm really there for. There is a "Athiest Quakers" monthly meeting.
Very seldomly does anyone actually talk religion unless you join a specific focus group in a side room. I'm not sure i've ever heard the name "jesus christ", or even a mention of "God", in worship or in the gathering room. Pretty much only references to "the light".
I was being facetious about the Quakers. I think they’re great people and I’m sure there’s a lot to be gained from a regular practice of contemplative silence. I went to one of their meetings once and my ADHD brain barely survived the ordeal. Yeah I’m teasing them but it comes from a place of love!
This may not be a terribly helpful response, but are you familiar with Heliocentric on YouTube? He's a former Pentecostal who, as an atheist, still (genuinely, unironically) loves going to church. His Atheist Church Audit series is great, the primary thrust of which is "does this congregation, regardless of belief system, positively affect their community; and if not, how might that be changed?" He's very non-judgemental, his insights are interesting and well thought out, and he has ties to some non-religious community groups that try to serve the function of church without being church. Might be worth at least checking the descriptions of some videos for names/locations/websites, if that's something you're actively interested in.
I'll try and take a look. I used to attend (infrequently) a Lutheran church that seemed genuinely welcoming and positive even to people like me. I enjoyed that.
Oh, I think I’ve seen that guy before. He recently went on a Mormon cruise, right? He had some interesting things to say about the social organization of Mormon churches that almost got me to start a new thread to talk about it.
Yeah, that's him! Genuinely unique perspective, having been in the thick of religious zealotry and then coming out the other side with ostensibly little emotional baggage. Like, he's obviously using the videos to process all that for himself, but the way he does it is, imo, a really positive addition to the larger conversation.
I'll say that some activities tend to get people talking more than others. Randomly, I've found that climbing gyms tend to be welcoming. Volunteering is another one as long as it's not volunteering to do something solo. If you're into mentoring/coaching, you'll meet a lot of people that way and it can be pretty rewarding.
Most of my friends (other than the ones my wife has developed and introduced me) are largely the result of climbing gyms. I would highly recommend them if you can do the sport and most folks don't care at all about the body types too if you are just trying to get into shape (like I am as a 'robust man'). It's honestly been something that I've had to adapt too as my former "friendships" have been far more toxic than I've realized and I've just dealt with them whereas these folks are just wholesome and awesome.
I would second TTRPGs as well at your local gaming store, that's where the other side of my friends are from too, but I've gotten into mixing them a bit as I also got some nerdy ass climbing friends too.
If you happen to be in Pittsburgh, hit me up too.
What do you enjoy doing?
Assuming you live in a city of reasonable size, you should be able to find local groups or organizations that do that very same thing. Join one of those groups, feel it out, and meet people along the way.
I recently got back into martial arts, and in so doing I've met a lot of people with that shared interest.
Most of my hobbies are indoors, admittedly... homelab/technology, trying to get into soldering, etc.
I want to get into astronomy, but due to the high temps here the groups only meet up maybe 3 months out of the year. The heat is probably a driver for a lack of social events in general, honestly.
If you're getting into soldering, your area may have something like mine does - a local community maker space. Consider taking your soldering projects to such a space! You can still get your work done, AND meet people - maybe even get some tips for your work too. Or offer tips to others.
I would love this, but unfortunately the only one in the area, in addition to being a bit of a drive and being more class-oriented, has a $75/mo membership fee, and additional costs for the (mandatory) classes. It's a little steep for someone who is more interested in the social aspect.
I'll keep searching for similar places/groups though.
As someone who is on vacation right now and probably desperately needs to actually implement this advice: just go out and talk with any strangers you see. They probably won’t kill you. The worst case scenario is they aren’t in a space to talk to you and may be a bit rude, but you’d be surprised how many people would be happy to stop and chat. Even people who are at work would like to have an excuse to stop working for a bit and conversation would be very welcome to them. Yes, there are some places where it’s not entirely appropriate to chat, but those are significantly more rare than you probably think. Go anywhere and talk to anyone.
I have come to think that starting conversations is not only a skill, it’s a pretty damn useful one that is extremely underappreciated outside of salesmanship. But it’s the core of networking, which is important both for friendship as well as professional development.
Minor edit: if you are one to go out to get coffee or food at a place regularly, why don’t you start by taking to the workers there for a minute? They may be too busy to have a full conversation there, but they will appreciate you taking an interest in them and you can always have “mini-convos” with them to get you started.
This is ftr very culturally dependent in terms of how acceptable it is. I would wholeheartedly recommend this here in the Midwest but would advise against it back in Berlin.
Find the local parks and rec group and attend any volunteer events llke park cleanups. Find a local food bank and volunteer to fill boxes. While there, strike up a conversation with people who look like they know others that are there. The people you meet there will generally be pre-pre-filtered to be relatively "good" people.
Thank you, this is very helpful
Less common advice: find a cooperative! Depending on where you live they will be more or less common, but any given city usually has a few. Most will be student coops for college kids, but there's plenty of adult co-ops as well.
I've lived in one for almost 4 years now, and it's been great, you get a community of people you see all the time casually, and have a shared purpose (either some cause the co-op dedicates itself to, or at its simplest at least a purpose of "living together in this house"), and usually have community traditions or events that help build bonds.
Every co-op is going to be different, so I'd shop around to try and find one that fits what you're looking for. It does come with costs, having to share both common space and responsibilities for organizing and taking care of the household, but the sense of community is the closest you can get to a "secular church" imo. Happy to answer any other questions as best as I can, if youd like l
I'm going to think out loud here...
You may not live in a village with a village square so the barrier to entry into social life is a little higher than just "show up" now that you are a little older.
Maybe you can decide that some place is your village square equivalent? Like a place where you make yourself at home and say hello to everyone (on a good day) and where others in time will greet you first (on a bad day). It might help to get a gimmick, but it might not... Like a dumb hat, a bright jacket, a pet squirrel, a wooden backpack, etc. This could be an actual square, a library, a coffee shop, a supermarket, a park, etc, etc. Just any place where people go regularly (in my mind I think the less commercial the better).
Whatever you do at least start greeting your neighbours.
I'm suggesting this practice as a way to become more comfortable with yourself as a social creature and also to maybe get to know someone where you live.
For me being geographically close to people is quite important and I tend to lose touch when people move away (I suspect it has something to do with low sense of object permanence). But I also think it's good to be friendly in your neighbourhood, as these are the people you're most likely to meet on any given day.
Not to be transactional about it because as others have stated being social is good for you anyway, but the people in your village square & neighbourhood are the people you will most likely have to depend on in a crisis (be it personal or societal) for food, heat, shelter or just some books when you're bedridden for a week.
I need to start doing this more, as in my literal neighbors. Over time I've become more and more shut in and spend less and less time outdoors. In winter my excuse is that it's cold. In summer my excuse is that it's either too hot or it's raining.
In reference to your village square comment, this has worked for me and made me feel more part of the community by getting to know what would be a few random people.
I would go to my local boutique bar with my 2 huskies and the amount of people who would say 'I love your dogs, can I pat them?' and that was enough to break the ice, and seeing them next time, it would build on that.
I have a friend that describes his dog as his agent. Having a dog gives you a reason to be outside, doing not much other than letting your dog poo and run, in the same place other people are doing the same. The key to this is that a lot of people do it same place, same time, every day and community and engagement springs up in turn.
100% true. When I was going to the local dog park it was exactly the same, except we all knew the dogs names but not each other's 😁
I've lived through pretty similar experiences and have a very similar view, I want to have friends, good friends not just people around me. I understand that one can lead to the other but I've not really managed to get it to work. Most of my life I've had no real friends, I had a good group when I was in university but we eventually started drifting and then I moved far away.
I've tried a few things and nothing has worked, use friend finding apps, joining online communities, joining in person volunteering and in person social activities but still nothing. And it's not lack of effort, in some of those spaces I've been the one leading to meet others, rallying them to doing something, starting conversations; all of which feels uncomfortable to me as an introvert, but I also am aware that relationships take effort and if I get a friendship out of it I'm happy to put in that effort.
I've reached the conclusion that is something about me, and I can't really quite tell what it is. And it's not like I can ask others about it. At the same time I've made my peace with it and while I'm still hopeful to find friends one day, I don't expect it to happen and I won't get in a bad mood because of it.
Sorry, this is not to say you shouldn't go for it, I just wanted to add my voice in saying that while friendships can have some demonstrable benefits, you can also be OK being on your own.
There may be something to this, because, well, you can. An observation I've made of people who struggle with intimacy and friendship is that they are often good listeners but they share little of themselves and ask for little for themselves. It needs to be a two way street.
I have no idea if this applies to you and my apologies for pinning the observation on a quote of yours that may not have warranted it, but it stuck out to me.
Thanks so much for the reply. I think your assessment is right. I find it hard to share things that are personal, and I also tend to have issues finding common ground with others to have conversations that are not just surface level since it's hard for me to find anyone that likes the things that I like in the first place.
Intimacy comes from vulnerability, I'm pretty sure.
If your relationships with people stay stubbornly surface level and unrewarding, consider how much you share of yourself and how willing you are to have people comment on where you are at, help you with things and participate in what you would generally consider private.
A good shortcut to heading down this path is to ask people to help with practical things - moving house or fixing your garden or whatever. Match that with emotional openness and you're on your way. A good way to find people to pull from in this is all the ways others mentioned above, but most of them won't magically make friends without a little bit of vulnerability on your part.
I was in a somewhat similar position to you are, after years of FIFO work. I had friends but they were all interstate to where I was living.
I had said the same sort of things to my brother who one day invited me to have a run at training for field hockey, despite never having picked up a stick prior. After a few years playing, I met a person who would ride classic motorbikes to the field, which got us talking.
I have since met other mates of his who are all into bikes (and a lot of typical blokey things). We all live quite close and in the earlier days we regularly would put out the word and just catch up over some beers. Drinking isn't that much of an event these days but it did help forge the bonds of friendship.
So my suggestion is to take a leap of faith. Sports, volunteering, classes(cooking, painting, academics) or even religion. I don't believe, but I do believe that one good thing churches do is foster the sense of community. I am currently looking for an interest to go meet some more new people.
Good luck whatever you choose
Oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot: yes, I too struggle to see the point in socialising and having friends.
I've been in quite an anhedonic phase for a while[0] and nothing really seems worth it.
I'm mostly just going through the motions.
But sometimes I do have fun, or enjoy myself or get into flow doing something. It is not often, but it happens.
I get those moments because I do socialise, cook & eat, go to swim, go for a walk on foot or bike, read different stuff, start projects, etc even though I don't want to or feel like it or see what's the point. Because somewhere in my anhedonic brain there is a tiny voice that reminds me that I can have fun and that it might be worth it.
[0:a] It might be connected to depression, but it's not the same.
[0:b] It might be that the phase has been lifelong only that I just now have the time and utge to notice how I function more closely
There are people out there that want to hang out with you. This is not a hollow statement copy and pasted as a last-ditch throwaway attempt to stifle some sadness so you can keep limping lonely along (as I used to feel about that statement). The beauty of the internet comes from all the stories you hear about people finding their best friends online, but they never fully convey that prior to finding someone they were in a complete social-desert. If you're looking around thinking "damn' there's no one around me that clicks with me", that is absolutely a valid statement. There are a lot of people who try to down play that and just tell you to keep looking, but it is absolutely possible that your near-vicinity of reach is in fact completely barren.
Overcoming the loneliness you're feeling can be a lot. It is not out of the question that you may need to move and travel to be around people that want to be around you. But, and I cannot stress this enough, it is worth finding those people. If you've been lonely for a while it can feel easier to put your head down and trudge it out, and maybe mintain some online connections, but there is something so soul-filling to be in a circle with people in real life you've known for years referencing memories from your relationships. And while you're persuing those relationships, if you stumble through what may feel like detrimental faux pas moments, consider it a filter to see which friends stick around and use that thinking to dare yourself into more social instances to make friends.
Good luck, friend. ✌️