It is just unbelievable to me that for the first time in human history we used advanced technology to prevent many millions of deaths from a plague and then we followed up that incredible triumph...
It is just unbelievable to me that for the first time in human history we used advanced technology to prevent many millions of deaths from a plague and then we followed up that incredible triumph with the spread of anti-vax hysteria.
I feel like this timeline was custom made to infuriate me in particular.
The timeline of it still completely blows my mind. It's a scifi trope that the intrepid doctor will find a cure for The Disease by the end of the episode. Except we (humanity) kind of did that....
The timeline of it still completely blows my mind. It's a scifi trope that the intrepid doctor will find a cure for The Disease by the end of the episode. Except we (humanity) kind of did that.
Jan 11 - genetic sequence of COVID posted publicly
Feb 24 - Moderna delivered the first test doses to the NIH
That's 43 days, which is an absolutely crazy real-world timeline. The thing that infuriates me, and the part that I tried to make to some of my family at the time, is that we could easily have just rolled it out. mRNA vaccines as a general technology are pretty well tested and known to be safe. And they were reasonably confident that the vaccine itself was effective.
And yet, we still chose to spend 6-12 months* testing it for safety and efficacy in the midst of a global pandemic that was crippling the entire world. And that's a good thing!
*front line workers got it in Oct, the rest of us got it somewhere around March-April
It's easy to say that in hindsight. However, it doesn't leave room for if the vaccine was ineffective or problematic. Being confidently incorrect would have been devastating. Flip the script. If...
The thing that infuriates me, and the part that I tried to make to some of my family at the time, is that we could easily have just rolled it out.
were reasonably confident that the vaccine itself was effective.
And yet, we still chose to spend 6-12 months* testing it for safety and efficacy in the midst of a global pandemic that was crippling the entire world.
It's easy to say that in hindsight. However, it doesn't leave room for if the vaccine was ineffective or problematic. Being confidently incorrect would have been devastating.
Flip the script. If the vaccine was ineffective, you just obliterate public trust in vaccines (which is already a contentious topic). We saw that with people buying/selling fake vaccination cards, refusing/lying about getting vaccinated, downplaying how bad covid was, etc - and that was after the vaccine was thoroughly tested.
If it has short/long term side effects you now have a self inflicted pandemic on top of covid. And because we vaccinate front line workers first, you now impaired the people keeping the world going. So now you need a second vaccine + need to deal with side effects of the first and need to get the public on board for that... which will require extensive testing, so you're back to 6+ months but also need to conjure up more skilled labor to replace front line workers sidelined with side effects in the meantime.
The rollout was a critical juncture. After the initial surge, covid was something that was manageable (albeit with great effort and sacrifice). We had the time to ensure it was safe and effective; trying to take a short cut and failing would require taking the time anyways, but if we impaired our front line workers taking that time wouldn't have been tenable.
The point I like to make about the pandemic, is that it's a good example of the government working for the people. We elect people to be responsible stewards and do what's best for the country. It may not be what's best for some people (obviously so for the people that died of covid before the rollout). The best thing might not even be the popular thing. Masking, distancing, lock downs, stimulus and mandated vaccination certainly weren't the popular thing. But it bought time to ensure the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine and it was the responsible thing.
Apologies, I was not clear with the point I was making. I agree with everything you explained in your post. My "and yet.." comment was ment to emphasize that we did in fact wait, and and took time...
Apologies, I was not clear with the point I was making. I agree with everything you explained in your post.
My "and yet.." comment was ment to emphasize that we did in fact wait, and and took time to validate the vaccine anyway despite the existence of enormous pressures to get something out ASAP. The argument I heard from some of my family was that it was too rushed and it was risky to take it, and this was my counter-argument that no, they did in fact wait and took a responsible amount of time to roll it out in stages.
You definitely don’t want to screw it up, but there are plausible arguments that the Covid vaccine rollout could have been accelerated without compromising safety. For example, using things like...
You definitely don’t want to screw it up, but there are plausible arguments that the Covid vaccine rollout could have been accelerated without compromising safety.
For example, using things like challenge trials, which were never tried. Also fractional doses, which some countries did and others didn’t.
It really feels like we're in a battle between people who are willing/capable of critical thinking and those who aren't, and the ones who aren't are somehow winning.
It really feels like we're in a battle between people who are willing/capable of critical thinking and those who aren't, and the ones who aren't are somehow winning.
Critical thinking is not a force anyone has to listen to. Conspiracism is winning on the right, and the inability for anyone on the left to take action is the downfall. Peaceful protests prosper...
Critical thinking is not a force anyone has to listen to. Conspiracism is winning on the right, and the inability for anyone on the left to take action is the downfall. Peaceful protests prosper under a peaceful rule, they do nothing under fascism. Fascism speaks only in the language of violence.
I don't think they're winning - the tariffs will doom them. Trump is wrecking the US economy, and soon that will become undeniable* as the recession hits. If the economy crashes, Trump's...
I don't think they're winning - the tariffs will doom them. Trump is wrecking the US economy, and soon that will become undeniable* as the recession hits. If the economy crashes, Trump's popularity will crash too. Probably.
They definitely won. They elected a racist, rapist, several times convicted felon to a second term of presidency of the United States. I totally lost faith in the country.
They definitely won. They elected a racist, rapist, several times convicted felon to a second term of presidency of the United States. I totally lost faith in the country.
When I said "winning" I wasn't referring to the election (which is over, and can't be referred to in the present tense anymore). They won the election. Obviously. I'm saying they're not winning...
When I said "winning" I wasn't referring to the election (which is over, and can't be referred to in the present tense anymore). They won the election. Obviously. I'm saying they're not winning the political popularity contest.
They have all but shut down political progress for the last decade, if not two. Fascism has basically won at this point. That's not defeatism or doomism or whatever. That's reality. I don't like...
They have all but shut down political progress for the last decade, if not two. Fascism has basically won at this point.
That's not defeatism or doomism or whatever. That's reality.
I don't like to express the only thing I think will save us.
I don't disagree. My point is that Trump's popularity is guaranteed to plunge within the next year (because it's the economy, stupid), and when that happens it's plausible we'll see an impeachment.
I don't disagree. My point is that Trump's popularity is guaranteed to plunge within the next year (because it's the economy, stupid), and when that happens it's plausible we'll see an impeachment.
I meant a successful impeachment. The GOP are scared to stand against him because his cult is still intact as a significant voting bloc. If Trump's popularity falls off a cliff (as in, if his...
I meant a successful impeachment. The GOP are scared to stand against him because his cult is still intact as a significant voting bloc. If Trump's popularity falls off a cliff (as in, if his popularity is cut in half or less), then a successful impeachment is plausible. But only if Trump really screws the pooch on the economy.
EDIT: If Trump really was unable to lose power from overstepping boundaries, he wouldn't be constantly taking a step back when he hits major outrage in response. The fact that he's afraid of overstepping some boundaries is proof that some boundaries (and thus failure-states) exist.
I'd love to see one, but Congress seems unwilling and unable. Sorry for the misunderstanding, it's just seems unlikely to see an impeachment conviction. And yes, it suggests he actually has fear...
I'd love to see one, but Congress seems unwilling and unable. Sorry for the misunderstanding, it's just seems unlikely to see an impeachment conviction.
And yes, it suggests he actually has fear of overstepping, it's what I try to remind myself as they continue to engage with the courts and yet right now they're doubling down on not being held responsible to court rulings. They are like Zeno, ever approaching the line of no return closer and closer without crossing. I'm sure there's someone Trump is beholden to enough to listen, but I'm not sure even he knows who that is day to day.
I do believe he could shoot someone in the street and have no change in his popularity, so the real questions for me are, how hard will he push the scapegoat narrative in response to his failures blowing up in his face? How far are we from just locking up our political opponents, and cowing protest for fear of being kidnapped and detained? Because I think that happens before an impeachment conviction. And that should be unbelievable but it isn't.
... [emphasis mine] So, 70% of Republicans are anti-COVID vaccine, and I'd imagine the majority are anti-vaccine altogether. Presidential votes in 2024 were nearly 50/50. That makes ~35% of the...
In recent weeks, the Trump administration has questioned the testing of vaccine safety for coronavirus shots, introducing uncertainty over whether an updated shot would be available in the fall. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the nation’s health secretary and founder of a prominent anti-vaccine group, has said he intends to shift the way vaccines are tested, a notion that has sparked concern among medical experts who say the United States has one of the most rigorous vaccine safety systems and that doing so could limit access to lifesaving shots.
Kennedy has a long history of disparaging vaccines, including falsely calling the coronavirus shot “the deadliest ever made.” Kennedy has countered that he is simply seeking good data about vaccines, and his health department has since taken aim at reexamining coronavirus vaccines.
Just over half of adults say they are at least “somewhat confident” that coronavirus vaccines are safe. This includes nearly 9 in 10 Democrats, compared to just 3 in 10 Republicans.
...
The FDA was on track to grant full approval to the vaccine April 1 for Americans 12 years and older, according to two people familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share internal deliberations. But top Trump FDA officials told agency regulators to pause the approval, the people said — a move that sparked alarm from some vaccine experts who said it amounted to political interference into decisions generally left to career staff who review reams of data.
“The FDA, in some ways, has usurped the role of the CDC by making a recommendation,” said Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and a member of the panel of FDA’s expert vaccine advisers.
[emphasis mine]
So, 70% of Republicans are anti-COVID vaccine, and I'd imagine the majority are anti-vaccine altogether. Presidential votes in 2024 were nearly 50/50. That makes ~35% of the country who will choose to not get vaccinated for COVID.
If measles was able to make a comeback, I unfortunately could see COVID doing the same. It's so disappointing that health is a political issue in the US.
(Approaches/funding tied to healthcare has always been debated, but this is just fighting against factual information. And unlike abortion, I don't believe there is a strong religious message that is anti-vaccine, with the exception of Islamic law, but even those leaders have spoken out about being pro-vaccine.)
Whatever happened to the freedom to make our own choices about our personal health? If someone were upset about vaccine mandates, they should be upset about vaccine restrictions as well.
Whatever happened to the freedom to make our own choices about our personal health? If someone were upset about vaccine mandates, they should be upset about vaccine restrictions as well.
Yeah, I ponder this sometimes as well. Republicans were once the party of small government, limited fiscal spending, and limited taxes. Or, they at least did a decent job of painting this picture....
Yeah, I ponder this sometimes as well. Republicans were once the party of small government, limited fiscal spending, and limited taxes. Or, they at least did a decent job of painting this picture.
Now, it's not even close. They want to put restrictions on your health decisions. They want to dictate who can and cannot use public restrooms. They want to destroy any semblance of diversity that exists/existed in not just government, but in the military, in education, in science, and in health research.
Republican policies are not "pro" anything, but "anti" everything. Which is such a strange platform, but I guess it appeals to the right wingers that have become conspiracy theorists and believe anything that comes across their Facebook feed. Of course they want to stop all of these evils, right?
Past Republicans would have dropped their jaws if a president accepted a gift from a middle eastern country. But now that it's Trump, it's just good business sense to them.
The thing that I hope is true, but am losing faith in, is that the majority of republicans didn't vote for Trump, but voted for "not Democrat." A lot of single-issue voters would fall in this category- those who think the most important issues are (anti-)abortion, gun rights, etc. And those who fear socialism and communism and whatever else the talking heads say democrats will do.
Don't forget that conservatives are in favor of obstensively the largest government position possible, capital punishment. The ability to decide who is legally allowed to live in your society is...
Don't forget that conservatives are in favor of obstensively the largest government position possible, capital punishment. The ability to decide who is legally allowed to live in your society is not a position someone who is interested in small government makes
Because conservatives only champion value systems insofar that it furthers their agenda. Freedom of speech. Unless I don't like what you have to say. Right to bear arms. Unless black folk start...
Because conservatives only champion value systems insofar that it furthers their agenda.
Freedom of speech. Unless I don't like what you have to say.
Right to bear arms. Unless black folk start doing so.
Freedom of religion. Unless yours is not mine.
Don't tread on me. But I'll tread on you and not recognize the hypocrisy.
I don’t think many people care about these things on principle. Much like lawyers arguing a case, they’ll make a principled argument when it’s in favor of their preferred outcome. You could add...
I don’t think many people care about these things on principle. Much like lawyers arguing a case, they’ll make a principled argument when it’s in favor of their preferred outcome.
Not only does RFK want the CDC to stop recommending fluoride in drinking water, he also wants the FDA to phase out oral fluoride supplements. Taking away your choices and forcing you to do only...
Not only does RFK want the CDC to stop recommending fluoride in drinking water, he also wants the FDA to phase out oral fluoride supplements. Taking away your choices and forcing you to do only what they deem acceptable is the Republican agenda.
Same, had it 2 weeks ago (and didn't clue in that it wasn't a cold until I realised a few days in that I couldn't smell or taste anything). Got it from my wife and kid who probably caught it on a...
Same, had it 2 weeks ago (and didn't clue in that it wasn't a cold until I realised a few days in that I couldn't smell or taste anything). Got it from my wife and kid who probably caught it on a plane/in an airport when they were coming back from a visit with my wife's parents. It's still travelling far and wide, so keep your vaccination up to date if you can!
This is also why I still mask up in public. KN95s for lower threat situations like grocery shopping, N95s (3M Auras specifically, which are the most comfortable I’ve found) for airports and...
This is also why I still mask up in public. KN95s for lower threat situations like grocery shopping, N95s (3M Auras specifically, which are the most comfortable I’ve found) for airports and flights.
Between up to date boosters and that, to my knowledge I’ve never caught COVID and have only been sick once in the past 5 years (which I think was a garden variety 3-day cold, taste/smell were unaffected). I caught that while visiting a Disney park, which I foolishly didn’t mask in thinking it’d be fine since it was open air.
I apologize, you're absolutely right. I should have said that as something like "pandemic-level health crisis covid revival." It still has a significant impact on the immunocompromised in its...
I apologize, you're absolutely right. I should have said that as something like "pandemic-level health crisis covid revival."
It still has a significant impact on the immunocompromised in its current state and is very much a threat to a large subset of the population.
Not to mention that every COVID-19 infection is still promoting further mutations (and long COVID). There's nothing to say we couldn't have another more infectious or virulent version like Delta,...
Not to mention that every COVID-19 infection is still promoting further mutations (and long COVID). There's nothing to say we couldn't have another more infectious or virulent version like Delta, which is why we need to keep boosting as widely as possible with vaccines that protect against the current viral strains.
Republicans spent the last 20 years working overtime to earn the votes of the absolute dumbest people in Amercia and this is the end result. I don't care if it's divisive or hateful anymore, this...
Just over half of adults say they are at least “somewhat confident” that coronavirus vaccines are safe. This includes nearly 9 in 10 Democrats, compared to just 3 in 10 Republicans.
Republicans spent the last 20 years working overtime to earn the votes of the absolute dumbest people in Amercia and this is the end result. I don't care if it's divisive or hateful anymore, this right here is cold hard proof that Republican voters are, objectively, incredibly stupid.
This line of thinking will get us nowhere. Because if they're the majority, and this is how it is, dems should just give up, right? It's easy to simplify it to "they're stupid," but the Us vs....
cold hard proof that Republican voters are, objectively, incredibly stupid.
This line of thinking will get us nowhere. Because if they're the majority, and this is how it is, dems should just give up, right?
It's easy to simplify it to "they're stupid," but the Us vs. Them mentality isn't going to win anyone over. It's worth diving into figuring out why these people are voting this way.
Sure, for some, you'll find hatred or bigotry or blind loyalty. But others have reasons that are false beliefs that may be changed through more knowledge.
I want to be clear that I'm trying to project a "holier than thou" image. I have family that is unquestionably and consistently MAGA, and I don't believe their opinions will change. But I don't believe everyone is a lost cause.
Not necessarily - the Democratic Party could adapt its strategy around that fact. Plenty of ideas can be promoted in a simpler/different manor that can appeal to morons, to put it bluntly/rudely....
Because if they're the majority, and this is how it is, dems should just give up, right?
Not necessarily - the Democratic Party could adapt its strategy around that fact. Plenty of ideas can be promoted in a simpler/different manor that can appeal to morons, to put it bluntly/rudely.
Take something like universal healthcare - it could be promoted as protecting American families, protecting their freedom, and protecting small businesses. When it comes down to it, it really is the patriotic thing to do, and it really would do all of the aforementioned things, but it's a marketing/perception issue. (ignoring the issues of political will / wealthy donor interests / propaganda / etc for the purposes of this example)
Me neither, but if they can't comprehend kindergarten-level biology, they are. We can't win anybody with logic anymore. That was the tried and true strategy that fell apart when Newt Gingrich...
But I don't believe everyone is a lost cause.
Me neither, but if they can't comprehend kindergarten-level biology, they are.
We can't win anybody with logic anymore. That was the tried and true strategy that fell apart when Newt Gingrich started weaponizing government shutdowns to push agenda items. If we could, 2024 would not have ended with insurrectionist Trump winning an election.
We've hit a point where I'm pretty sure the only inevitable outcome is war. The only question is if it's a civil war or a world one.
Biological warfare is the likely winner when one side is firmly against vaccines.
Logic has never been the decisive force swaying voters in any democracy, ever, but both sides think that their position is the logical one: The single most harmful force among liberals in America...
We can't win anybody with logic anymore.
Logic has never been the decisive force swaying voters in any democracy, ever, but both sides think that their position is the logical one:
if they can't comprehend kindergarten-level biology, they are.
The single most harmful force among liberals in America is the notion that Absolute Scientific Truth is on their side and that anybody who doesn't just get it is a rube and an idiot.
The Tuskegee syphilis experiment happened in living memory. Think of all the things you don't trust about the federal government - perhaps that they are fabricating charges to arrest immigration activists. Antivax conservatives just have a different list.
Are covid vaccines generally safe and effective? Obviously yes. Is it completely insane to question them? Obviously not.
Biological warfare is the likely winner when one side is firmly against vaccines.
Well, logic isn't the only way to communicate your point effectively, so I'll partially agree with that. Appealing to emotion is also important, which democrats regularly do by including audience...
We can't win anybody with logic anymore.
Well, logic isn't the only way to communicate your point effectively, so I'll partially agree with that. Appealing to emotion is also important, which democrats regularly do by including audience members in town halls who have faced negative consequences of something the candidate has a desire to fix. The first example that comes to mind is how fentanyl was brought up a lot. We could debate about how effective this strategy is, but my point is that there certainly is much more than logic at play.
But regarding war, I completely disagree. A civil war doesn't make sense with how politically diverse states are between urban and rural areas. I could maybe see some weird universe where California annexes, but that's up there with separating Northern and Southern California into two states. Incredibly unlikely.
World war is something everyone wants to avoid... even aggressive countries like North Korea are just attention seeking. Regardless of how impulsive Trump is, I have fairly high confidence that there are people between him and a nuclear weapon launch who would outright refuse to allow it. If Vault Tec spins up soon and bunker space starts selling like hotcakes among the rich, then I'll start worrying.
I think the main driving force behind most anti-vax perspectives, after fear, is lack of trust in government and corporations. People are more likely to believe there's something messed up in...
I think the main driving force behind most anti-vax perspectives, after fear, is lack of trust in government and corporations. People are more likely to believe there's something messed up in vaccines when they don't trust the people making or regulating them.
At some point, in a theoretically less crazy and polarized America, government will have a lot of work to do to win back public trust
Until then don't write off the full 7 in 10 republicans mentioned. That they aren't sure the vaccines are safe doesn't automatically mean they're against all vaccines. COVID vaccine uptake in the US was lower than many comparable countries but it wasn't abysmally lower. For example the difference between the US and Australia by 2022 was around 5% of the population.
If measles was able to make a comeback, I unfortunately could see COVID doing the same
Fortunately it looks like COVID19 has gone the way of other COVID variants in the past and evolved in the direction of the common cold in terms of scariness. There's good reason to believe that will continue.
This really grinds my gears. I work in the emergency department and I have Covid patients all the time. I truly believe the reason I don’t catch it year after year is solely because I get all of...
This really grinds my gears.
I work in the emergency department and I have Covid patients all the time.
I truly believe the reason I don’t catch it year after year is solely because I get all of my boosters.
I find it interesting that for hospital jobs they have flu shot carts and physically hunt me down to get a shot every year, but the second they stopped requiring COVID shots they pretended they stopped existing and offer no support for them. I don’t imagine the hospitals will start protecting us and start carrying them again in the wake of this news either.
I hope the FDA is happy when all of the healthcare workers become a vessel to spread it to all the patients. Going to the hospital is about to get even more dangerous.
As a vendor who visits many different hospital systems and has to remain up-to-date with all the required shots, it's shocking to me how many no longer require proof of COVID-19 boosters. I've...
As a vendor who visits many different hospital systems and has to remain up-to-date with all the required shots, it's shocking to me how many no longer require proof of COVID-19 boosters. I've seen plenty of sloppy or non-existent masking even on posted biohazard rooms, and watched my co-workers return from the field all infected with the virus-du-jour because they didn't stay on top of their booster shots.
I understand the fatigue that healthcare workers experience (and I'm one of the people who has relatively serious vaccine reactions, so I sympathize with the reluctance to feel lousy after each shot), but I was pretty comfortable with the "get vaccinated or don't let the door hit you on the way out" rules during the height of the pandemic.
I'm sorry to hear that your hospital isn't providing vaccination support for COVID-19 boosters, and wonder what their staffing is like given the proportion of long COVID sufferers from repeated infections.
The new guidelines indicate that updated vaccines will probably be available in the fall for Americans over the age of 65, as well as those older than 6 months who have at least one condition putting them at higher risk of severe illness, as well as people with conditions such as asthma, diabetes, cancer and obesity, in addition to pregnant women. Top FDA leaders estimate more than 100 million Americans would be eligible for the shots under the new framework. In past years, the shots have been broadly recommended, including to children and otherwise generally healthy Americans.
It was not immediately clear if healthy people under 65 would be able to get the shots or whether insurers would pay for them if so. Health experts said that whether individuals outside those risk groups would have to pay out of pocket for covid shots depends on how the guidelines are written.
Agreed. Amusingly though, the CDC list of qualifying conditions lists quite a number of things. Including depression. Which even if I didn't have before, I definitely do now, and will probably...
Agreed.
Amusingly though, the CDC list of qualifying conditions lists quite a number of things. Including depression. Which even if I didn't have before, I definitely do now, and will probably have for at least the next 1340 days.
Also in the list ...... "physical inactivity". Which I definitely qualify for.
Part of me hopes that the qualifying conditions list is a form of malicious compliance to allow enough loopholes for the shot to be more generally available.
Part of me hopes that the qualifying conditions list is a form of malicious compliance to allow enough loopholes for the shot to be more generally available.
Considering they put mental disabilities that don't massively affect your physical health like ADHD on the list, this very much feels like a case of "put everything on here that people won't read...
Considering they put mental disabilities that don't massively affect your physical health like ADHD on the list, this very much feels like a case of "put everything on here that people won't read into more"
There are a lot of things that were comorbid with higher rates of risk from COVID, probably these are all legitimate things on that comorbidity list. It does just prove the point that everyone...
There are a lot of things that were comorbid with higher rates of risk from COVID, probably these are all legitimate things on that comorbidity list.
It does just prove the point that everyone needs vaccines of course.
Moving forward, if a vaccine maker wants to have their COVID-19 vaccine also approved for use in healthy children and healthy adults under age 65, they will have to conduct large, randomized placebo-controlled studies. These may need to include tens of thousands of participants, especially with high levels of immunity in the population now. These trials can easily cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and they can take many months to complete. The requirement for such trials will make it difficult if not impossible for drug makers to conduct them each year and within a timeframe that will allow for seasonal shots to complete the trial, get regulatory approval, and be produced at scale in time for the start of respiratory virus season.
Makary and Prasad did not provide any data analysis or evidence-based reasoning for why additional trials would be needed to continue seasonal approvals. In fact, the commentary had a total of only eight references, including an opinion piece Makary published in Newsweek and a New York Times article.
These trials are also (generally) not ethical, you don't give someone nothing, you give them the previously approved treatment. If someone thinks they have the vaccine, get sick and have long term...
These trials are also (generally) not ethical, you don't give someone nothing, you give them the previously approved treatment. If someone thinks they have the vaccine, get sick and have long term health impacts or die from COVID... Medicine doesn't not treat patients. Maybe vaccines are different but placebo trials for a cancer patient? Fuck no.
It is just unbelievable to me that for the first time in human history we used advanced technology to prevent many millions of deaths from a plague and then we followed up that incredible triumph with the spread of anti-vax hysteria.
I feel like this timeline was custom made to infuriate me in particular.
If so, we're in the same Bad Place.
Jason figured it out? Jason? This is a real low point. Yeah, this one hurts.
The timeline of it still completely blows my mind. It's a scifi trope that the intrepid doctor will find a cure for The Disease by the end of the episode. Except we (humanity) kind of did that.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/03/how-moderna-made-its-mrna-covid-vaccine-so-quickly-noubar-afeyan.html
That's 43 days, which is an absolutely crazy real-world timeline. The thing that infuriates me, and the part that I tried to make to some of my family at the time, is that we could easily have just rolled it out. mRNA vaccines as a general technology are pretty well tested and known to be safe. And they were reasonably confident that the vaccine itself was effective.
And yet, we still chose to spend 6-12 months* testing it for safety and efficacy in the midst of a global pandemic that was crippling the entire world. And that's a good thing!
*front line workers got it in Oct, the rest of us got it somewhere around March-April
edit: clarity
It's easy to say that in hindsight. However, it doesn't leave room for if the vaccine was ineffective or problematic. Being confidently incorrect would have been devastating.
Flip the script. If the vaccine was ineffective, you just obliterate public trust in vaccines (which is already a contentious topic). We saw that with people buying/selling fake vaccination cards, refusing/lying about getting vaccinated, downplaying how bad covid was, etc - and that was after the vaccine was thoroughly tested.
If it has short/long term side effects you now have a self inflicted pandemic on top of covid. And because we vaccinate front line workers first, you now impaired the people keeping the world going. So now you need a second vaccine + need to deal with side effects of the first and need to get the public on board for that... which will require extensive testing, so you're back to 6+ months but also need to conjure up more skilled labor to replace front line workers sidelined with side effects in the meantime.
The rollout was a critical juncture. After the initial surge, covid was something that was manageable (albeit with great effort and sacrifice). We had the time to ensure it was safe and effective; trying to take a short cut and failing would require taking the time anyways, but if we impaired our front line workers taking that time wouldn't have been tenable.
The point I like to make about the pandemic, is that it's a good example of the government working for the people. We elect people to be responsible stewards and do what's best for the country. It may not be what's best for some people (obviously so for the people that died of covid before the rollout). The best thing might not even be the popular thing. Masking, distancing, lock downs, stimulus and mandated vaccination certainly weren't the popular thing. But it bought time to ensure the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine and it was the responsible thing.
Apologies, I was not clear with the point I was making. I agree with everything you explained in your post.
My "and yet.." comment was ment to emphasize that we did in fact wait, and and took time to validate the vaccine anyway despite the existence of enormous pressures to get something out ASAP. The argument I heard from some of my family was that it was too rushed and it was risky to take it, and this was my counter-argument that no, they did in fact wait and took a responsible amount of time to roll it out in stages.
You definitely don’t want to screw it up, but there are plausible arguments that the Covid vaccine rollout could have been accelerated without compromising safety.
For example, using things like challenge trials, which were never tried. Also fractional doses, which some countries did and others didn’t.
It really feels like we're in a battle between people who are willing/capable of critical thinking and those who aren't, and the ones who aren't are somehow winning.
Critical thinking is not a force anyone has to listen to. Conspiracism is winning on the right, and the inability for anyone on the left to take action is the downfall. Peaceful protests prosper under a peaceful rule, they do nothing under fascism. Fascism speaks only in the language of violence.
I don't think they're winning - the tariffs will doom them. Trump is wrecking the US economy, and soon that will become undeniable* as the recession hits. If the economy crashes, Trump's popularity will crash too. Probably.
They definitely won. They elected a racist, rapist, several times convicted felon to a second term of presidency of the United States. I totally lost faith in the country.
When I said "winning" I wasn't referring to the election (which is over, and can't be referred to in the present tense anymore). They won the election. Obviously. I'm saying they're not winning the political popularity contest.
They have all but shut down political progress for the last decade, if not two. Fascism has basically won at this point.
That's not defeatism or doomism or whatever. That's reality.
I don't like to express the only thing I think will save us.
I don't disagree. My point is that Trump's popularity is guaranteed to plunge within the next year (because it's the economy, stupid), and when that happens it's plausible we'll see an impeachment.
We saw two, but no convictions, because however unpopular the GOP didn't want to/refused to/was scared to/ stand against him.
I meant a successful impeachment. The GOP are scared to stand against him because his cult is still intact as a significant voting bloc. If Trump's popularity falls off a cliff (as in, if his popularity is cut in half or less), then a successful impeachment is plausible. But only if Trump really screws the pooch on the economy.
EDIT: If Trump really was unable to lose power from overstepping boundaries, he wouldn't be constantly taking a step back when he hits major outrage in response. The fact that he's afraid of overstepping some boundaries is proof that some boundaries (and thus failure-states) exist.
I'd love to see one, but Congress seems unwilling and unable. Sorry for the misunderstanding, it's just seems unlikely to see an impeachment conviction.
And yes, it suggests he actually has fear of overstepping, it's what I try to remind myself as they continue to engage with the courts and yet right now they're doubling down on not being held responsible to court rulings. They are like Zeno, ever approaching the line of no return closer and closer without crossing. I'm sure there's someone Trump is beholden to enough to listen, but I'm not sure even he knows who that is day to day.
I do believe he could shoot someone in the street and have no change in his popularity, so the real questions for me are, how hard will he push the scapegoat narrative in response to his failures blowing up in his face? How far are we from just locking up our political opponents, and cowing protest for fear of being kidnapped and detained? Because I think that happens before an impeachment conviction. And that should be unbelievable but it isn't.
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[emphasis mine]
So, 70% of Republicans are anti-COVID vaccine, and I'd imagine the majority are anti-vaccine altogether. Presidential votes in 2024 were nearly 50/50. That makes ~35% of the country who will choose to not get vaccinated for COVID.
If measles was able to make a comeback, I unfortunately could see COVID doing the same. It's so disappointing that health is a political issue in the US.
(Approaches/funding tied to healthcare has always been debated, but this is just fighting against factual information. And unlike abortion, I don't believe there is a strong religious message that is anti-vaccine, with the exception of Islamic law, but even those leaders have spoken out about being pro-vaccine.)
Whatever happened to the freedom to make our own choices about our personal health? If someone were upset about vaccine mandates, they should be upset about vaccine restrictions as well.
Yeah, I ponder this sometimes as well. Republicans were once the party of small government, limited fiscal spending, and limited taxes. Or, they at least did a decent job of painting this picture.
Now, it's not even close. They want to put restrictions on your health decisions. They want to dictate who can and cannot use public restrooms. They want to destroy any semblance of diversity that exists/existed in not just government, but in the military, in education, in science, and in health research.
Republican policies are not "pro" anything, but "anti" everything. Which is such a strange platform, but I guess it appeals to the right wingers that have become conspiracy theorists and believe anything that comes across their Facebook feed. Of course they want to stop all of these evils, right?
Past Republicans would have dropped their jaws if a president accepted a gift from a middle eastern country. But now that it's Trump, it's just good business sense to them.
The thing that I hope is true, but am losing faith in, is that the majority of republicans didn't vote for Trump, but voted for "not Democrat." A lot of single-issue voters would fall in this category- those who think the most important issues are (anti-)abortion, gun rights, etc. And those who fear socialism and communism and whatever else the talking heads say democrats will do.
Don't forget that conservatives are in favor of obstensively the largest government position possible, capital punishment. The ability to decide who is legally allowed to live in your society is not a position someone who is interested in small government makes
Because conservatives only champion value systems insofar that it furthers their agenda.
Freedom of speech. Unless I don't like what you have to say.
Right to bear arms. Unless black folk start doing so.
Freedom of religion. Unless yours is not mine.
Don't tread on me. But I'll tread on you and not recognize the hypocrisy.
I don’t think many people care about these things on principle. Much like lawyers arguing a case, they’ll make a principled argument when it’s in favor of their preferred outcome.
You could add states’ rights to that list.
Not only does RFK want the CDC to stop recommending fluoride in drinking water, he also wants the FDA to phase out oral fluoride supplements. Taking away your choices and forcing you to do only what they deem acceptable is the Republican agenda.
It was never anything more than a ruse.
COVID doesn't need to make a comeback. It's still here! It never went away!
Yup.
Source: got COVID (for the third time) just a few weeks ago.
Same, had it 2 weeks ago (and didn't clue in that it wasn't a cold until I realised a few days in that I couldn't smell or taste anything). Got it from my wife and kid who probably caught it on a plane/in an airport when they were coming back from a visit with my wife's parents. It's still travelling far and wide, so keep your vaccination up to date if you can!
This is also why I still mask up in public. KN95s for lower threat situations like grocery shopping, N95s (3M Auras specifically, which are the most comfortable I’ve found) for airports and flights.
Between up to date boosters and that, to my knowledge I’ve never caught COVID and have only been sick once in the past 5 years (which I think was a garden variety 3-day cold, taste/smell were unaffected). I caught that while visiting a Disney park, which I foolishly didn’t mask in thinking it’d be fine since it was open air.
I apologize, you're absolutely right. I should have said that as something like "pandemic-level health crisis covid revival."
It still has a significant impact on the immunocompromised in its current state and is very much a threat to a large subset of the population.
Not to mention that every COVID-19 infection is still promoting further mutations (and long COVID). There's nothing to say we couldn't have another more infectious or virulent version like Delta, which is why we need to keep boosting as widely as possible with vaccines that protect against the current viral strains.
Republicans spent the last 20 years working overtime to earn the votes of the absolute dumbest people in Amercia and this is the end result. I don't care if it's divisive or hateful anymore, this right here is cold hard proof that Republican voters are, objectively, incredibly stupid.
This line of thinking will get us nowhere. Because if they're the majority, and this is how it is, dems should just give up, right?
It's easy to simplify it to "they're stupid," but the Us vs. Them mentality isn't going to win anyone over. It's worth diving into figuring out why these people are voting this way.
Sure, for some, you'll find hatred or bigotry or blind loyalty. But others have reasons that are false beliefs that may be changed through more knowledge.
I want to be clear that I'm trying to project a "holier than thou" image. I have family that is unquestionably and consistently MAGA, and I don't believe their opinions will change. But I don't believe everyone is a lost cause.
Not necessarily - the Democratic Party could adapt its strategy around that fact. Plenty of ideas can be promoted in a simpler/different manor that can appeal to morons, to put it bluntly/rudely.
Take something like universal healthcare - it could be promoted as protecting American families, protecting their freedom, and protecting small businesses. When it comes down to it, it really is the patriotic thing to do, and it really would do all of the aforementioned things, but it's a marketing/perception issue. (ignoring the issues of political will / wealthy donor interests / propaganda / etc for the purposes of this example)
Me neither, but if they can't comprehend kindergarten-level biology, they are.
We can't win anybody with logic anymore. That was the tried and true strategy that fell apart when Newt Gingrich started weaponizing government shutdowns to push agenda items. If we could, 2024 would not have ended with insurrectionist Trump winning an election.
We've hit a point where I'm pretty sure the only inevitable outcome is war. The only question is if it's a civil war or a world one.
Biological warfare is the likely winner when one side is firmly against vaccines.
Logic has never been the decisive force swaying voters in any democracy, ever, but both sides think that their position is the logical one:
The single most harmful force among liberals in America is the notion that Absolute Scientific Truth is on their side and that anybody who doesn't just get it is a rube and an idiot.
The Tuskegee syphilis experiment happened in living memory. Think of all the things you don't trust about the federal government - perhaps that they are fabricating charges to arrest immigration activists. Antivax conservatives just have a different list.
Are covid vaccines generally safe and effective? Obviously yes. Is it completely insane to question them? Obviously not.
I do have to admit this is pretty funny.
Well, logic isn't the only way to communicate your point effectively, so I'll partially agree with that. Appealing to emotion is also important, which democrats regularly do by including audience members in town halls who have faced negative consequences of something the candidate has a desire to fix. The first example that comes to mind is how fentanyl was brought up a lot. We could debate about how effective this strategy is, but my point is that there certainly is much more than logic at play.
But regarding war, I completely disagree. A civil war doesn't make sense with how politically diverse states are between urban and rural areas. I could maybe see some weird universe where California annexes, but that's up there with separating Northern and Southern California into two states. Incredibly unlikely.
World war is something everyone wants to avoid... even aggressive countries like North Korea are just attention seeking. Regardless of how impulsive Trump is, I have fairly high confidence that there are people between him and a nuclear weapon launch who would outright refuse to allow it. If Vault Tec spins up soon and bunker space starts selling like hotcakes among the rich, then I'll start worrying.
I think the main driving force behind most anti-vax perspectives, after fear, is lack of trust in government and corporations. People are more likely to believe there's something messed up in vaccines when they don't trust the people making or regulating them.
At some point, in a theoretically less crazy and polarized America, government will have a lot of work to do to win back public trust
Until then don't write off the full 7 in 10 republicans mentioned. That they aren't sure the vaccines are safe doesn't automatically mean they're against all vaccines. COVID vaccine uptake in the US was lower than many comparable countries but it wasn't abysmally lower. For example the difference between the US and Australia by 2022 was around 5% of the population.
Fortunately it looks like COVID19 has gone the way of other COVID variants in the past and evolved in the direction of the common cold in terms of scariness. There's good reason to believe that will continue.
This really grinds my gears.
I work in the emergency department and I have Covid patients all the time.
I truly believe the reason I don’t catch it year after year is solely because I get all of my boosters.
I find it interesting that for hospital jobs they have flu shot carts and physically hunt me down to get a shot every year, but the second they stopped requiring COVID shots they pretended they stopped existing and offer no support for them. I don’t imagine the hospitals will start protecting us and start carrying them again in the wake of this news either.
I hope the FDA is happy when all of the healthcare workers become a vessel to spread it to all the patients. Going to the hospital is about to get even more dangerous.
As a vendor who visits many different hospital systems and has to remain up-to-date with all the required shots, it's shocking to me how many no longer require proof of COVID-19 boosters. I've seen plenty of sloppy or non-existent masking even on posted biohazard rooms, and watched my co-workers return from the field all infected with the virus-du-jour because they didn't stay on top of their booster shots.
I understand the fatigue that healthcare workers experience (and I'm one of the people who has relatively serious vaccine reactions, so I sympathize with the reluctance to feel lousy after each shot), but I was pretty comfortable with the "get vaccinated or don't let the door hit you on the way out" rules during the height of the pandemic.
I'm sorry to hear that your hospital isn't providing vaccination support for COVID-19 boosters, and wonder what their staffing is like given the proportion of long COVID sufferers from repeated infections.
From the article:
Fuck
Agreed.
Amusingly though, the CDC list of qualifying conditions lists quite a number of things. Including depression. Which even if I didn't have before, I definitely do now, and will probably have for at least the next 1340 days.
Also in the list ...... "physical inactivity". Which I definitely qualify for.
Part of me hopes that the qualifying conditions list is a form of malicious compliance to allow enough loopholes for the shot to be more generally available.
Considering they put mental disabilities that don't massively affect your physical health like ADHD on the list, this very much feels like a case of "put everything on here that people won't read into more"
There are a lot of things that were comorbid with higher rates of risk from COVID, probably these are all legitimate things on that comorbidity list.
It does just prove the point that everyone needs vaccines of course.
More background and commentary: Ars Technica: Under anti-vaccine advocate RFK Jr, FDA to limit access to COVID-19 shots
These trials are also (generally) not ethical, you don't give someone nothing, you give them the previously approved treatment. If someone thinks they have the vaccine, get sick and have long term health impacts or die from COVID... Medicine doesn't not treat patients. Maybe vaccines are different but placebo trials for a cancer patient? Fuck no.
It's very frustrating.
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