Discussion about asexuality, demisexuality, and allosexuality
Quick search on Tildes brought up this five year old post asking how many folks here are asexual - spoiler alert, no replies which identified themselves as ace.
I was asked in the Pride Month intro thread by @arqualite about my relationship, and @Sparksbet shared his experience, and while I didn't want to derail that wonderful and celebratory discussion by talking too much about my one specific relationship, I also definitely want to talk about myself as well, so I am super hoping for two things for this thread:
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Some discussion about ace spectrum in general - questions, answers, curiosities, insights, anything that might be helpful for folks new and old to the concept, on every segment of the spectrum or attraction layer cake
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Just one tiny sub comment where I could use some advice and get some clarity .....and a digital hug if you could spare one
A few light hearted anecdotes:
When I was in 8th grade and we had health class, the topic of homosexuality came up. It was explained as an attraction to the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex. (This was mid 90s, before sex/gender was differentiated, and also ace unreliable narrator here, so at least that was what I heard.) The atmosphere was positive and curious, and the discussion quickly became an open forum on homosexual sex acts like "how do things line up" and what folks saw on the internet etc etc. I put up my hand and asked, so what about folks who are attracted to the same sex but aren't interested in sex with folks of the same sex, are they still gay then? The teacher looked very puzzled and politely answered, well, the wanting to have sex with the people of the same sex IS what we're talking about here. :\ it's only looking back now that I realise for most people, attraction is the same thing as sexual attraction.
Also eighth grade, shop class. Background: I'm a very very petite girl: size 0/xxs, probably not even 5' yet at the time. So, I finished my wood working project early, and being the artsy keener that I was, had time to use the machines to make random knickknacks. One such project was a knife handle: I didn't know how to actually acquire a blade or how to set it, but I'll figure it out later and maybe ask the teacher when I cross that bridge. I made it with a piece of very pretty cherry wood and formed and polished it until it fit quite nicely in the hand: I was very proud of it. But before I got to the point where I was ready to ask the teacher for the next step, several classmates had already reported me to a red faced shop teacher who, in hindsight, was probably quietly having an aneurysm and internally screaming. Backstory. This guy was already very uncomfortable with me from an interaction earlier in the semester. I'd put my wrist watch down to wash my hands, then forgot it at the sink. He picked it up asked the whole class whose it is. I said it was mine, but he absolutely refused to return it and kept asking everyone. It was a men's Seiko 5 mechanical: family member gave it to me, and I love its huge dial (this was decades before Fossil made them cool), heavy weight and the swish of its pendulum when I swing my arms. But he just wouldn't believe me. Eventually I told him to look at the wrist size - It wouldn't fit any of the boys. Anyway, back to the knife handle. He didn't want to confiscate it because I guess he didn't want the kids snickering about him touching it either. But he demanded in a huff that I leave it in the room. It took me a long time to figure out that he just wasn't equip to deal with a kid in his class apparently making a wooden phallus. Sometimes a knife handle is just a knife handle, Mr K.
I'm cis female. During my mid to late teen years I had some pocket money from part time work, and subscribed to Maxim magazine. I liked the publication for several reasons: girl magazines were uninteresting as I was not into sex advice nor fashion; Maxim's writing was very funny; the spines form a pretty picture collage; the gadgets and tech articles were quite informative; the models were wearing mostly swim suits which is excellent for my anatomy drawings reference; and lastly I guess I wanted to be 'the cool girl' among my dude friends. I just thought it meant, they like girls and I like girls too. It never occured to me that they would fantasize about the women visually depicted in them. I guess in hindsight, shy questions about "am I using the magazines" yes I absolutely am using them, meant very different things in their heads..... And then also in hindsight their polite refusal when I asked if they also want to use the magazines was quite gentlemanly of them.
One time on a ski trip, now as late teen/young adults group of friends, we got to talking really late into the night and I fell asleep in the same room as the rest of them. I guess the girls got up and went back to their rooms? No idea, heavy sleeper. Next morning, our chaperone adult's face when someone told him "CeeBee's in bed with [your son]" was apparently highly amusing.
Thanks for sharing your stories. I'm not ace myself, but I am pretty low drive for a man, have been my whole life, which led to some in-retrospect pretty funny stories.
One time I was camping with a large mixed group of other students as part of a wilderness club. We had just made it to North Dome in Yosemite for the evening, and got to experience a full moon rise over Halfdome. It really was an extraordinary experience, and I am grateful for it. Less grateful for the verbal dressing-down I and my two (girl) friends got for sneaking off to spend time together. We were in awe of watching the moon, and yes we were sharing a blanket. We were also fully dressed with jackets and long thermals underneath. It was damn cold! At no point did anything other than 'Wow nature is amazing' cross our mind. Chaperones thought otherwise. There were so beating-around-the-bush about it I didn't even figure out why they were so red-faced upset until long after the trip, too. An innocent mystery!
:D I love this moon story! Maybe the chaperone thought y'all were being Japanese and poetic about the moon being beautiful
Fellow ace/aro person here.
I don't have much to say, but if anyone wants to ask ace/aro people some questions, I'll be happy to answer to the best of my ability. Ofc I'd only be speaking from my perspective and understanding.
I have a question for the aromatic side of things please~
In our culture, very few people would expect to have sexual relationship with me because they know I am married. So pretty much once past early 20s, I didn't have to deal with disappointed new friends anymore because it's clear I'm not looking to date and for sure not looking to cheat on my spouse.
How do you navigate relationships with other new acquaintances to let them know early that nothing is going to happen romantically? Has anyone been upset with you for "wasting their time"?
Because I guess when people ask "are you single", they automatically assume single = looking for a romantic relationship. Which is different from when we think about someone not working, we also ask if they are looking.
Before I answer your question I want to lay out a few things about my slice of the aromantic spectrum:
With regards to navigating the fact that most people are looking for a romantic relationship when they are looking for a sexual one (and vice versa), it's frankly a tricky wire to walk. I don't lead with the label of aromantic when I first meet people, because most folks will just completely write you off as a possibility, in the same way that asexuals will often get written off from being anything but a friend. I also don't lead with the label because I feel like I need to have a conversation with someone for them to understand what it means for me to be using the label. It's not that I don't want what others label as romantic. In fact, many partners have told me that I am a romantic partner! It's just that for me, the framing is not romance, and it's not a feeling that's specific to certain kinds of relationships.
This is where it gets a bit into the weeds, but nearly anyone you ask who has a very strong relationship with someone (think best friend) will likely have experienced romantic moments with that person. Most folks will not directly view this as a romantic relationship, but some do embrace this (mostly women, as men being romantic with other men is often a social taboo). This really confuses me, because I don't feel like I have a good grasp on what this means for their perception of romance. Do they feel romantic in the moment and just brush it off or simply not recognize it as romance? Or is there a different feeling here when it's a nonsexual romance - and if so, why do they not discriminate between sexual and romantic attraction?
I've asked a lot of people what romance is to them. As you might expect, the answers vary wildly, but nearly everyone eventually reaches the conclusion that romance is a feeling. If others are capable of experiencing that feeling and are likely to experience that feeling in response to what I put into a relationship, does it really matter all that much that I don't experience the same feelings that they do? In any relationship there is an imbalance of feelings. On the most basic of level, two individuals are unlikely to derive the same satisfaction out of activities. It's not uncommon for couples to do an activity together that one of the two individuals enjoys much more than the other. Even when it is a shared enjoyment, there's probably flavors to the emotions that they are feeling that differ - what memories they trigger, whether they feel empowered or happy or joyful or excited or fulfilled or any other number of ways in which someone can feel. So what's the difference or what makes romance special? If I'm feeling intimate and connected and warm and happy and grateful towards my partner when something happens for which they feel romantic about, does it really matter? I think for posterity and for understanding, it's an important conversation to have, which is why I like to have that conversation in person, but ultimately I don't think it's that huge of a deal that I need to lead with said label.
That's how I feel about sex -- I'm probably not deriving the same level of primary enjoyment from the activity as they do, but their feelings of satisfaction and comfort etc are a result of what I'm bringing to the relationship, so....
You've given me a lot to think about. :) thank you for sharing an interesting perspective that I don't usually get to hear about.
While I'm a major hermit and don't usually talk to people often enough to be asked out, if I was in a section of my life where I'd expect to be asked that question, I'd buy a cheap gold ring and wear it on my left ring finger as if I was already married. Of course, that's because I'm both aro and ace.
If someone is just aro but still wants a sexual relationship, I'd guess you'd need to just say so upfront that you're aromantic and ask if that's okay with them in a hypothetical relationship.
A big friendly bear hug from me!
I want to tell a story from my life that has some incredibly powerful good in it but is also inescapably sad (it involves the death of one of my friends). If you or anyone else reading this is not feeling up for a sad story, please skip the rest of this. I don't want to be a downer for anyone, but I do want to share something important to me, especially because I think others here might find some worth in it too.
The Story
I had a good friend who sadly passed away quite unexpectedly from a very aggressive cancer a few years ago. A few years prior to his death, he had come out as a homoromantic ace.
There was a noticeable change in him, for the better, once he had the vocabulary to describe himself. It was like, up until that point, he'd always carried with him a slight bit of noticeable discomfort, and identifying as ace let him finally cast it off -- fully and for good. After he came out, he was more relaxed, more easygoing, more at peace. It felt like he was finally himself.
Ace awareness was incredibly important to him. He talked to everyone about it -- not in an overbearing way, but in a teacherly, "I want to help people understand" sort of way. He felt that he'd been denied the language to understand himself for so long -- because being ace wasn't widely known or understood -- and he wanted to do his part to make sure that others didn't have that same hardship.
As an allo myself, I learned a lot from him. He was the first openly asexual person I met. I've since met more, of course, but I'm grateful for him to being my personal bridge to a part of the LGBT umbrella under which I'd never personally stood and hadn't really examined deeply. We had a lot of talks. I asked a lot of questions. He gave a lot of really good explanations.
He was a huge fan of ace-themed stuff. I always told him I was jealous that aces get the absolute best pride colors for their flag (it's true allos, don't deny it). He had so many different pride-themed t-shirts, most of them a blend of ace colors/iconography and nerd culture (he was big into JRPGs, Broadway, and D&D). Every time you'd see him he'd have a different one on, and it was rare that you saw him without something ace-identfying on. His ace pride shirts essentially became his trademark.
When we went to his wake, I wanted to make sure I honored him, so I wore a purple button-down, gray slacks, and black shoes. Despite not being ace myself, it felt right to go that way. I wasn't wearing those colors for me -- I was wearing it for him.
When we got inside, his family was standing at the receiving line, and I saw that each of them had chosen to wear one of his ace shirts. It was honestly one of the most beautiful and loving things I'd ever seen. His whole family was there, showing that even though he was gone, he was nonetheless embraced, loved, understood, and celebrated for who he genuinely was.
I still miss him, but there's a bittersweetness to that feeling because, to this day, I'm also genuinely glad that he was able to be out and proud and truly seen before he passed.
Just wanted to say, your story gave me tingles. Thank you for sharing.
That's a beautiful beautiful memory, kfwyre......thank you so much for generously sharing your friend's memory with me.
Losing a friend is like.....going to watch a movie together and you made plans to go get desserts afterwards, and looking forward to chatting all night until dawn.....but then they got called away on an emergency half way through the second act, and now I'm alone in the theater with our other friends.....and we won't get to hear what what the departed friend thought of the movie, nor be able to share all those other activities we planned.
It made me cry reading about his being loved and accepted for who he was. So many people have to deal with "no you're not X you can't be X stop calling yourself X (subtext: because that reflects poorly on me and threatens my self image, and I can't even see you for your own person despite this being a deeply personal thing for you)"
Thank you for the bear hug and the story. Really, really needed that.
I don't have any questions or much to say on the topic, but I'm always happy to give a digital hug!
Happy Pride!
Aww, thank you, quite needed that. :')
aro/ace here! I figured out I was asexual probably around age 15 or so, thanks to AVEN. I didn't figure out that I was aro until my late 20s/early 30s, so that sure was interesting lol.
I probably fall under the aego label for both sexuality and romantic attraction but even tho I love me some microlabels, i pretty much just stick to using aro/ace because it's simpler and really does cover the info I need to get across in most situations lol.
Sounds like we're in similar boats! I figured out I was ace around 17 (also from the AVEN website), and pretty much just confirmed to myself once and for all I'm aro in this thread thanks to the aegosexual page. Trying to figure out the romantic side of things is definitely interesting xD
Out of curiosity, how did you figure out you were aro? Was there any specific trigger, or did you just eventually reach that conclusion?
heck yeah AVEN alumni! :D
It was kind of a slow realization. I went from Incredibly Sheltered to Hoe Phase (affectionate) in the space of about 2 years, and I kept waiting to fall in love with literally anybody that I was dating or sleeping with, and when it never happened I just kind of threw up my hands and assumed I was Strange. I then got into a 7 year long poly relationship, and I finally had something to compare and contrast with, bc me and my partner's wife really hit it off (she and I are still friends, he and I are...less so? not bc we hate each other or anything, it just kind of mutually fizzled and I'm too ADHD to be friends with people who don't do the texting equivalent of rattling a food bag to convince the stray cat to come hang out on the porch). but yeah, she's like my polar opposite in that she Really Really Loves Romance and I was finally like, oh hey wait, those things that make you feel Happy and In Love make me super uncomfortable and then I discovered that aromanticism is An Actual Thing, and here we are.
Dealing with some of my specific hangups and trauma also helped me figure out what was actually my own desires (or lack thereof lol) and what was just something I'd been taught I should want or want to do, so that definitely helped too, and since it was kind of simultaneous with the long relationship, I can't be completely sure which was more relevant or influential. But yeah, definitely a slow burn realization rather than an "oh" moment.
Glad you finally figured it out! I hope the "Strange" part didn't leave you feeling too bad about yourself, have seen plenty of stories about people suffering and thinking something was wrong with them before learning about them. I can get what you mean about your own desires versus what you're taught you should want. Society pushes both sex and romance as the "default" state of things pretty strongly, among other things. It can be easier to recognize and accept some things than others just because it's so deeply ingrained in our heads as the norm, even without any specific trauma or reinforcement.
Though I'm surprised you learned about aromanticism so much later than asexuality. I remember the FAQs on the AVEN website went into a lot of detail about how some people could feel romantic attraction and others didn't. Checking it in the WBM, it didn't use the word "aromantic" at the time I read it (looks like it was first used in September 2013), but it repeatedly stated that romantic attraction and sexual attraction are separate. I suppose having a specific label can help it click better on top of the concept!
I'm around that age right now and really wondering whether I'm ace or not (definitely not aro).
The main point of confusion for me is that I do something think about sex, but it's more like... intrigue? Like "huh I wonder what this thing is about" rather than "I want to do it with that person".
I also sometimes experience a feeling towards my partner which I don't know if it's sexual or not. It's like a very strong physical attention and a desire for really strong physical contact (eg. making out or direct skin contact but very passionate), however I don't feel a desire to actually do sexual things with the person. I don't know if this is sexual attraction or not, it kinda matches some descriptions of sexual attractions I've seen online but not the others.
Can you please describe your experience? Although I guess it may be different since you're also aromantic
Sure, hopefully I can help a bit! My realization wasn't anything super grand. Like I said, I stumbled upon the AVEN website, and a bunch of stuff just clicked. I'd never really cared about relationships in media or had crushes on celebrities like a lot of girls my age. When reading I'd skim sex scenes because they just didn't interest me and made me feel uncomfortable. I also honestly found sex pretty gross just because I find genitals gross. More recently I've come to realize I also find the usual descriptions of sweaty skin against skin contact during sex to just feel uncomfortable. Not just in a "gross" way, but also just physically uncomfortable like you're being crowded too much.
All that said, I actually was in a relationship at the time. Though it was a pretty casual one from my perspective, and not the most romantic. We actually flipped a coin to decide if we should be dating. We were already best friends and super close (we used to joke they were my clone because of how similar we were), and it felt like a natural progression. After learning about the pseudoromantic microlabel today, that probably played into it.
Things didn't really change much after we started dating. We sat next to each other on the bus to gym class and went to junior prom together, but never went on dates. Sex wasn't really on the table at that point for various reasons, so it never came up. When we kissed though, I didn't feel those "sparks" people always describe. Heck, I felt a bit crowded and uncomfortable just having their arm over my shoulder while watching a movie at a friend's house. By then I'd realized I was ace, and it was a few days after that I broke up with them. I'd already been feeling a bit guilty, and it just felt unfair to them. Thankfully we're still very good friends.
However, the thing about asexuality is that it's a spectrum. While I'm sex-repulsed, I do have turn-ons, and even (sort of) figured out one before I figured out I was ace. What's weird for me is that once sex is added into the equation, it veers back into the "repulsed" zone. I'm also more interested in them in fiction or art than with real people. So, I have limited interest in engaging in them in real life even though they're not purely sex-related. I know plenty of people are ace and aren't sex-repulsed though, and have pretty active sex lives.
The way I personally think of and define sexual attraction is based on a Tumblr post I saw a long time ago. It said something along the lines of "somewhere out there, someone has looked at you and imagined you naked in their bed." Sounds a bit creepy, but it was meant to be a positive message to reassure people with self-esteem issues that no matter how they felt about themselves, someone likes them just as they are.
It just stuck in my head. At bare minimum, I know I don't look at people and feel an impulse to imagine them naked on my bed, or fantasize about other intimate contact. I've also seen plenty of romance stories where the characters do exactly that. I obviously can't speak for sex-favorable aces, but I imagine they also don't impulsively fantasize about having specific people in bed like that. Enjoying and wanting to have the act of sex is separate from attraction. So, it feels like a decent metric for sexual attraction to me.
Intimacy also comes in many forms. I remember one novel I read in high school had the characters talk about potentially having sex, and the girl said her favorite part in the past was just lying together in bed afterwards. So, they just cuddled and quietly basked in each other's presences rather than have sex. That scene's stuck with me over the years; in retrospect it was my first exposure to the other forms of intimacy involved with sex and relationships in general. It sounds potentially a bit similar to what you're craving.
One more thing: sexuality can be surprisingly fluid. It can change over time, and sometimes people really are just late bloomers. You also might be demisexual, which adds another layer of complexity to the self-discovery journey since you won't feel sexual attraction until you first have a close, personal connection. So it might become clearer to you with time, rather than having some specific "aha" moment.
As Foreigner said elsewhere in this thread, life is an endless journey of self discovery. So focus on enjoying the ride while figuring things out at your own pace.
Thanks a lot for the explanation! Also, I just read the wiki page for Aegosexual (which is still asexual, because no sexual attraction is involved), and wow I guess that describes me really well. I'm really happy since I'm no longer confused about my experiences.
No problem! I'm glad to hear you're no longer confused! Microlabels can be really helpful in figuring things out. Like I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it was the pseudoromantic page that helped me confirm to myself once and for all that I'm aro.
This is exactly what I would want in a relationship. In fact, after I first had sex, which helped me understand that I really am somewhere on the ace-spectrum. I described the experience to my friend as really enjoying the sleeping with someone part, but not really the sleeping with someone part (the sex part).
Just found this thread, have something of an anecdote I would like to share.
So I’m definitely on the ace spectrum. I can’t quite say where (lack of data…) but while I find people attractive I have a hard time imagining myself in any sexual situations. In addition, I have only had very few romantic feelings in my life, only three clear crushes in my now almost 28 years. Each time to a very close friend – so I suppose Demiromantic is the label there. The first two of those ended in clear rejections, but I’m still close friends with both of them and the feelings have long since faded again. Funny how that goes. This story is about the third one.
The person I would currently call my best friend is aroace. Last spring we had a discussion about our future and realized that neither of us really want to end up alone, so we had the idea that we might move together once we’re both done with our studies. The only problem with that plan: I knew that in the long-term I’d want something lasting. So I asked her what she would be imagining from moving together – would this be more like a shared flat until we move on, or a commitment to stick together? That was a year ago today.
Over the course of the past year we’ve tried to find out what it would mean for us to be in some sort of (queerplatonic) relationship, and whether that could work. In the past few months we’ve found a level of physical closeness that we’re both happy with but it’s still been ambiguous, and we kept it secret from our mutual friends until we knew what it actually was between us. Anyway, we finally talked it out yesterday. To her it’s never stopped feeling just platonic, and the thought of making it something else made her anxious. However, we agreed that that didn’t mean we’d have to go back to before we got this close. So I now have a friend I sometimes hold hands with, we’re going to tell some of our friends & family about this just so they don’t get the wrong idea, and we’ve established that as long as nothing gets in the way we’re planning on living together longterm.
All in all, this is pretty much the best outcome I could have hoped for. Nothing is actually changing except that there’s clarity about where we stand now, security about our future, and I no longer have to act differently when one of our friends walks into the room.
That sounds really nice and I'm so glad it worked out for you guys :) please feel free to share reactions from friends and family.
With myself, no one else knows other than my spouse, and he's kind of not really getting it either.
I was mulling over whether I should go over some of this on that Pride Month intro thread, mostly blocked by the fact that I usually browse Tildes through the Three Cheers app which doesn't have a draft saving feature yet - ie. I try not to make longer posts and instead prefer reading. But a discussion specifically about the ace spectrum... oh, that is tempting.
First... digital hug for you. I actually remember reading your comment on that intro thread and being reminded of my last relationship that convinced me that I was somewhere on the ace spectrum. I'm not really an anxious person but being in a heterosexual relationship where I was constantly being asked for sex (and that's "normal"!) despite feeling really uncomfortable with the idea, was giving me an insane amount of anxiety. I remember confiding in a friend a few years after that, because I felt my last ex had really crossed some boundaries, and that friend dismissed my thoughts and said it was perfectly normal to expect sex in a relationship. Well... great! I will simply never be in a relationship again. That was a decade ago (I'm 30 now).
All that being said, I really don't know where I lie on the ace spectrum (if I even do)! I had a crush on my now-girlfriend for the two years out of four that I had known her. I didn't know what that crush translated to in terms of attraction, though. I definitely did not want sex, I didn't have any desire for physical intimacy, and I had a crush on her before I knew what she looked like. When I finally confessed to her (really poorly, I will not elaborate) it was because I really didn't want "this" to end. And if the internet and anecdotes from friends were any indicator, "this" would end as soon as one of us found a romantic partner. Because there's this line that "just friends" apparently cannot cross - buying a home together, living in it together, doing your dang taxes together... and then once you do cross that line and turn it romantic, sex apparently goes hand in hand with that.
Hopefully it's obvious that I don't believe in any of these things. Anyone out there who wants to do that domestic shit together (especially when it's just financially easier that way) while being strictly platonic friends, I absolutely support you.
Anyways, to make matters of my sexuality even more muddled, this last Memorial Day weekend I visited my girlfriend and found that I am way more open to physical intimacy than I thought. Was I just a repressed lesbian this entire time??? Or does this make me demi at the very least? I do not know! We're both figuring things out, which sounds a little embarrassing to say at our age, but fuck it, I've decided I'm tired of trying to contort my life into allo norms.
Speaking of allo norms, another thing you mentioned in your intro post really spoke to me:
This shit is so relatable. I know that one does not need to be aro/ace to roll their eyes when a romantic subplot is introduced in fictional media, but it REALLY drives me up a wall. I have to smile and nod when two characters of opposite genders appear on screen at the same time and suddenly their chances of romantic/sexual attraction to each other skyrocket. I complain about characters in a video game becoming romantically involved and get weird looks. Admittedly, weird looks might be warranted when I'm being a sort of a killjoy, but really this is just me being tired of feeling... very unseen? in media, even queer media. Not to put a blanket damper on romance in my media. I just feel a little... disappointed, I guess.*
*Edit: thought about it a little more and felt I could elaborate. I dislike when media portrays what appears to me as a purely platonic relationship, as a gradual lead in to a romantic one, because I've been confessed to way too damn often. I didn't want any of my friends to get their hopes up just because I'd play video games with them. I have never indicated that I'm interested in men, but because of norms and heterosexuality understandably being the default, I'd get blindsided by these confessions and have to adjust how I speak to men (just because I'd encounter more men online than women, you know how it is) in the future. So... yeah, perhaps I'm a little disappointed that I haven't seen a depiction of someone being confessed to, being confused, and saying they're not into that.
I think....and obviously I don't know this first hand just my understanding of it. I think that sex is really central to how allosexual people think of themselves and how they relate to their intimate relationships. Eg, a relationship where two people have lots of sex is coded as a good one, and one where they don't is a bad one. And so maybe on their part when they don't seem their partner initiating as frequently as they do, it drives a different and opposite anxiety of "do they care about me as much as I care about them".
You and I would not measure love and care and intimacy and state of a relationship with sex, but our partners might.
And then from my spouse's side, understanding that for me sex is akin to a sort of hobby we both enjoy rather than something which makes up a huge part of his core, is a form of pain. It feels like, I guess, for a royal consort the emperor is her whole world, but to him she's just a forgettable and small part of his empire and his harem.
Sometimes, when we're choosing activities, it just wouldn't naturally occur to me to choose "hey let's go have sex" unless I'm specifically trying to pick something he'd enjoy. For him, that feels awful because he'd choose me nearly 100% of the time in the way that's the most intimately possible for two people to choose each other. He'd feel forgotten, or that he is less important than a tv show or a board game. The reality is that we both wanted to share an experience with each other: he wanted to share physical touch, and I wanted to share discussions about art and media and learn his views on the same thing we just experienced.
Right, exactly, I feel very seen and heard by you. I do cognitively understand: the same way that I wouldn't want my best friends to wash my undergarments, the same way that five-ish of us owning a home together isn't a good idea no matter how much I love them as friends....is the same (?) exclusivity that my partner feels about sharing physical intimacy with a friend.
But it also means that they have this very real and pressing and core part of them that they can no longer do with any other human on the planet. It's like, their taxes must be done or else they go to jail forever, and they're only ever allowed to hire us as accountants to do taxes together with them.
I don't mind it as much if they spend the time to show don't tell why they like each other. I hate it when it's purely visual animal instinct type sexual attraction shown on screen, esp when that's the only justification used for one or both of them throwing their whole dang lives away. For example I might get flack for this, but I really strongly disliked Brokeback Mountain: two selfish horny people ruin lots of lives. I know they can't publicly be together and it sucks for them and I think at least one of them was murdered by a lynch mob (?), which is terrible, but what I didn't like about it was how "not worth it" the whole enterprise seems. Are they even friends? Do they even like each other as individuals other than the sex? Couldn't they just properly divorce and start a dude ranch in a new part of the country, or buy two adjacent homes as two bachelors or else stay celibate with sadness and regret? Tons and tons and tons of people lived that way without ruining lives didn't they? Maybe I've been entirely unfair and I should give it a second viewing now that I understand sexual attraction between the vast majority of people more.
Edit: I should clarify that (1) I couldn't understand the on screen attraction between Jack and Ennis. They were coworkers who didn't seem like they liked one another until one of them suddenly violently attacked the other one night, and then they punched each other and parted ways (???????) it was all very confusing to me. I only realised in context very much later in the film, that they had had sex in the tent, I honestly thought one of them went insane somehow and was attempting to kill the other (????)
And (2) I would feel this way about the film if it were a man and woman who missed each other and married separate people due to religion or class or race or any other reason - you're married, don't cheat, or else try to end the marriage and go be free as outcasts and risk consequences. But I guess that's my unfair judgement as an asexual person: I don't feel the desire to have sex with even my most favorite person in the entire universe, so obviously I cannot understand why extramarital sex which could ruin your entire life could possibly be worth it.
I just want to highlight that I think this is often the societal default but as an allosexual person whose current and primary relationship is with someone whose ability and interest in sex has changed drastically due to medical and disability reasons, I noticed a comparison with cis folks that have had reason to actively consider their gender, or het folks that have had a reason to actively ponder their orientation. But my assessment of relationships and the role of sex in them is definitely different than more than a decade ago before this relationship. And my relationship is better for it (I think I am as a person too. ). Much like how I think people that actively assess/poke at/etc. their genders are less likely to fall into patriarchal gender roles because they're a default.
Not trying to pull the conversation to an allo perspective, I just saw this similarity and thought it worth sharing! (If it's too off topic please lmk)
Oh absolutely on topic (erh, for me....) and an extremely valuable perspective -- my relationship has definitely seen a huge change in recent years and we're both reeling from it and trying to understand how to readjust again......
Haha, I hope I didn't come across as too salty in my post when it comes to my past experiences. I've scrolled through enough r/relationship_advice (or, heaven forbid, r/deadrooms) out of morbid curiosity to understand that my metrics are very different from the norm. I hold nothing against the allos in my life, but I don't get to talk to other people about this topic often enough to not have my ramblings take on that salty flavor.
Yes! This is the sort of thing I'd read about online and used to convince myself that I just didn't need a relationship at all. It didn't occur to me that I might go out of my way to find other people who aligned with me - because I had also become convinced that basically everyone had sex really high up on their list, which I couldn't find myself accomodating. (That, and I had just dropped out of college with tens of thousands in debt so I didn't think too hard about actually imagining a future with someone else - I've got some shit to deal with on my own.)
Actually, reading about your relationship with your spouse helps me come to terms with mine with my girlfriend. I love cuddling with her, and if she were interested in trying out sex, I'd be open to it. If she were content with never having sex, I'd be content. For me it's totally normal to choose the tv show or board game over any form of physical intimacy... which ofc isn't to say that I don't value the latter, but it's just not #1 on my list of things I'd like to do together with her. And maybe that still places me firmly in ace-camp, idk.
I've actually never watched Brokeback Mountain! From your brief description I know I wouldn't like it (but like, again, I'm allergic to romance in media in general), but I'm also of the opinion that I need to watch something before commenting on something based on someone else's thoughts on the piece. So... TBC, I'll put it somewhere on my short watchlist. For education purposes. :) For now I'll comment on this:
Agree that it's particularly egregious when represented in that way, but I'm trying to articulate why I dislike even better-executed romantic relationships without sounding salty about something that others feel that I don't. Perhaps it's because a lot of those "show don't tell" moments, to me, are just things I'd do with platonic friends. That isn't to say that there's some mutual exclusivity going on when it comes to building a relationship (platonic vs romantic) but I don't want someone to point to me and say "Look, you and X would be great together!" because in a video game or movie, my interactions with X would absolutely would be used as a believable build-up to forming a relationship. Perhaps I care too much about what other people think about what I am or am not attracted to? Hm hm. Sometimes gals can just be pals...!
This thread has been great for discovering the aegosexual label, even if it's not one I'm going to use frequently when describing myself. In terms of romanticism, it's probably somewhere around the demi mark, but I don't know where in that area. Much like @MechanicalMagpie, it's just easier to say aro/ace and leave it at that.
So I guess I'll introduce myself as gay+aro/ace. It should have been obvious in my teens that I (M) was attracted to other men, but since that didn't really manifest itself in any actual wants or desires it sort of just left me confused. It wasn't until the end of high school that I finally internalised "oh I like men. Huh. Ok, now what", and a couple years later that I heard the aro/ace labels for the first time and things started clicking together.
I'm now in my late 20s, not been in a relationship (romantic or sexual), and am not really equipped socially to even know how to explore that space. Do I want to? Maybe, I won't really know until I do. Is a relationship (of any kind) something I have a need to for? No. Everyone is a friend, some are more friend than others, but I don't see anything beyond that point. That seems to be working out just fine, so I'm on the whole pretty happy with it.
Thanks for raising the topic. I don't know if I have anything smart to say, my brain is frankly a bit fried today, but here's my two cents. I've already shared on Tildes that I'm a married cis gender lesbian, but I'm also on the asexual spectrum. Exactly where on that spectrum isn't fully clear to me yet. Often the demisexual or demigreysexual label resonates. Sometimes the aegosexual label. All of that gets further confused with having a low drive in general. My attraction is very heavily aesthetic and romantic, but I rarely fantasise sexually about other people, even the ones I'm romantically or aesthetically attracted to. It took me a long time to realise that I'm different to a lot of people in that way (but not unique of course), and then begin putting some sort of label or form around it. I don't know that I'll find a concrete and lasting label (or if that's even necessary), all I know is I'm definitely not allo.
I'd never heard of aegosexual either, but that page led me to find the pseudoromantic label. Which explains so much about me. I'm ace, and have spent years trying to figure out if I'm aromantic or not because I get very strong feelings of wanting to be close to people.
This is why I support labels. Just seeing a label exists can help us figure things out about ourselves. I've been leaning towards aro for a bit, and after seeing pseudoromantic is a thing I'm pretty sure of it now! (That, and aegoromantic. I'm not opposed to having romantic relationships with fictional characters in my daydreams, which had added to my confusion.)
I like to say aces get an extra layer of self-discovery compared to others. Sexual orientation is one thing, but romantic is another beast entirely. I sometimes envy people who have matching allo orientations. If you're totally straight or gay and homoromantic, you only need to figure it out once.
Even within allo orientations though, I can imagine people having conflicting orientations, such as bisexuality but romantic attraction to only one sex or vice versa. Really is wild how complex sexuality is.
Side note: I shared this with a friend, and just found out today, June 5th, is Aro Visibility Day. The timing XD
Woah!!! Cosmic coincidence big time :D
Thanks for sharing my first Aro Visibility Day together
Ah it makes me happy to hear you found useful information on that website! I agree, labels make us feel less alone as they put concrete names to sometimes unclear and confusing feelings. They show that they're 'real' and valid, and that others have felt them too.
Life is an eternal journey of self discovery. I wish you the best of luck on yours :)
Thanks! I got lucky discovering asexuality existed in high school, so I didn't have to deal with too much angst with it like a lot of people unfortunately do. So instead, I got to spend college watching people freak out over sex from a distance! Seeing people's obsession with sex is pretty amusing as an outsider. It just feels so inconsequential compared to a lot of other things.
That said, I also spent a lot of my time in college spreading awareness, whether through projects for classes or by talking about it online. It's sadly still not super well-known, and I know a lot of people feel "broken" before learning about it. At least one person online later told me they first learned about asexuality from me and realized it applied to them. So I'm pretty proud of that!
Woah, TIL about the aegosexual label, thanks for sharing that.
I hear you on the definitely not allo. :)
Oh there are so many definitions I frankly get kind of lost. There's a huge list here:
https://lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Category:Ace-spec_identity
There are so many micro labels in the A-spec! When I've done trainings on queer language I often highlight a few and emphasize the need for communication and Google 😅
It's great you're raising awareness about the aro/ace spectrum, there's still so much lack of understanding and knowledge out there about these topics.
Is it also okay to just self identify as Ace-spec and leave it at that? I don't really very much know, and maybe it's the wrong label if I pick one without knowing all the others.....
As the definitely not Emperox of queer language - and in particular I am not on the Ace/Aro spectrum at all - but yeah for sure. Labels are your own!
You can pick whatever labels work for you, no one should dictate what those need to be. Labels to me are meant to be a way to communicate to others about yourself and potentially to find other people who are like you. My take is, if someone is being really nitpicky about the labels you use, are they really worth your time and attention?
It absolutely is okay to just identify as ace-spec! This is more or less what I do these days. Some people find micro-labels useful, others don't. Pick what feels right for you!
In answer to @arqlite 's questions:
Preface: I guess I don't really know how either, so please take this as a response from someone in the thick of figuring it out, not a hopefully future me who has it all figured out.
Lots of sex plus lots of masturbation (him). Like, tons and tons and tons of masturbation (from my view of 0 as norm). (TMI: record of something like his climaxing 6 times in a day with me and he could easily easily go for much more)
We've been together for two decades now, but the labelling is a new "discovery", so I'll answer based on how did this work in general over a long period of our lives. We both grew up in "conservative" patriarchal type upbringing, where the men are assumed to have a much higher sex drive, and the ladies are expected to not be much interested, so we both assumed we were just "normal" and slot right into type, so there wasn't a lot of pain or conflict. I don't experience sexual cravings or withdraw symptoms, nor do I chart frequency/quality and judge the health of our relationship based on our sex lives, but I know he does.
(Aside)
I think in our present society, we often say that sex is "a necessity and a human right". But is it really essential or "just" extremely important? What I mean is, human beings "need" oxygen and energy and water: we expire quite quickly without. We also "need" certain vitamins like D which relies on sunlight, and vitamin C which relies on absorption via diet. We'll expire too, albeit slowly.
But is sex in that category? We know celibates exist. So our "bodies" can go on for decades or even our whole lives without it. But what kind of life would that be?
My understanding is that, for allosexual individuals, sex is extremely important, and a hugely influential factor in our health, wellbeing, and happiness. While not an essential need like oxygen, it is nevertheless an important factor the way we can no longer conceive of quality living without electricity, indoor plumbing, running water, high speed internet and being part of a free and stable society. Do I want to live without any of these? Heavens no! How far would I go to maintain a lifestyle where these are available? Very very very far: I would move to a new country and learn a new language and give up my job and start all over and even give up on seeing family as frequently if it means where I am doesn't have those things anymore. I would be fairly miserable and spend all day thinking about how to get these things and how to achieve stability where I didn't have to think about the lack anymore. So, it's not a "need" strictly speaking, but very akin to it. That's how I am currently understanding my spouse's need for sex.
(/Aside)
We have very fun and fulfilling and varied sex something like 3-9 times a week. I'm able to "respond" enthusiastically once we're on a roll, so to speak, and he's a very generous lover who pulls out all the stops all the time to make sure all my (very modest) desires are met, and because I love him dearly and it's very satisfying to see someone respond so positively to things I am doing, the activity is very positive for me as well.
Sort of like, even if you didn't previously play Magic the Gathering, seeing your partner so excited about playing together gets you excited too, right? So y'all have a fantastic evening and he'd want to play again the next night, great. But if he suddenly dropped the hobby and gets into something else, and otherwise seems happy, you may not bring up playing together anymore, that's all.
I think if I were aromantic, or if I were sex repulsed, a relationship with a very sexual person would totally not work out at all whatsoever.
This is a more complicated answer because certain other factors in both our lives have upset the previously quite happy equilibrium, and we're both taking a very long time and not always happy about it. We cry together, we hug and we share and we try not to say mean things (me) and we try not to hide (him) and we love each other through differences and hope together.
The overall answer is, "with the respect of one another, with faithfulness and love, draw near" to one another.
Compromise often implies a sort of, cutting off bits of ourselves to fit better together: it's like if we each have to give up something and both suffer something, which isn't untrue but not as descriptive? Maybe more like, think of two organisms in symbiosis?
A fungus is really good at breaking down stuff into minerals that it doesn't really need, so it sends them to the tree. A tree photosynthesis and has a ton of carbs extra, but it doesn't know how to turn rocks into micronutrients, so it sends carbs to the fungus.
They're "giving up" something, but in this case these are nearly free extras that each easily generates, and each receives something they can't easily get on their own.
My husband probably sometimes hear the call of the moon or something and mildly fantasizes about roaming the earth and sowing wild oats (?) but he realises that he's happier in a stable monogamous relationship where he didn't have to be on the constant chase, there's no worries about STIs or pregnancies, it's honestly financially cheaper, it's better for his social anxiety etc, and he's interested in sex with me in particular not just sex for sex's sake (mostly?). And for my part I would love to go travelling more and being in more adventures, but then I will miss out on sharing new experiences with him and holding hands and snuggling with him, and he makes me laugh and can anticipate my needs in a way no other human beings on earth can. Not so much giving up as a reasonable exchange, I guess.
How it works in minutiae is he'll try not to overthink it if I say no to sex on any particular night, and he won't make any further moves in attempt to change my mind, and then for my part if I'm not against it for whatever reason then I try to say yes at least for "something simple" which usually gets me going and turn into enthusiastic lots more.
I hear people say wild shit about how sex (or maybe they'll say "physical intimacy") is a base human need. And as someone that's probably best described as demisexual I'm left wondering what planet these people are coming from.
I hope this isn't coming across as insensitive to allosexual friends, it's just a musing and I would love to hear more perspectives.
I like having few needs and I love feeling secure in being able to acquire them without assistance or dependence on time from anyone else, without fluctuations in prices or supply issues, without market influences, where my needs don't become gnawing or pronounced over time, and not due to algorithmic manipulation or SEO or advertising, and I love that I can't be tempted to make bad decisions (in this arena) that could totally derail my life.
"Thrill seeking" is also absent in me. Which I am also thankful for.
There's probably an equally powerful and positive influence that I'm missing in return, I'm sure. But it feels like playing on Easy mode at least in this one regard.
I’m a GenX cis male with an, erm, “usual“ sex drive I’m learning so much from this thread. My nephew is asexual and all I want is their happiness. The more I learn from your experiences and stories the more I hope I can be useful.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences. It expands my view of the world and all of us who live in it.
Be kind and present.
I don’t have any comments, but I like hugs a lot so here you are!🤗🤗🤗
Yay! *Hug back~
I'm probably closest to Aegosexual or Demisexual in that I have stuff that turns me on and I like exploring that, but the physicality of it is something of a turnoff. I'm (deeply) familiar with limerance on the romantic side, and due to my own hangups think that my things are one sided, or people want things that I have no interest in providing, or I should sort out my own business before I start seriously looking for a relationship, or god forbid I just like the idea of a relationship and actually trying to date would be bad for all parties. So I'm not entirely sure where preference ends and anxiety beings, and I'm more comfortable flying solo at this point in my life, but at the same time I should probably get out of the house more.
I feel very similarly! Very alloromantic and (I think) aegosexual, with it primarily being the physicality of actual real life sex that repulses me. Hypothetical, unnamed and not real people doing it? Yes. Real people I know and love doing it or trying to involve me in it? Absolutely not.
Yeah, been in an odd position where I've read steamy writings and skipped past the "good" parts, where intercourse doesn't do much for me but certain things about it do.
Would I want to partake? Maybe? But the standard dating scene seems like a garbage pit that I don't feel compelled to put up with, so I won't.
I'll pitch in as someone who identifies as demisexual. Finding a label other than "ice queen" or "frigid" or "cold fish" helped me realize I had a queer alignment rather than something wrong with me.
Like a lot of other people in this thread I was mystified by my peers in MS and HS who had posters of celebrities and crushes they pined over while I was just... ?? Some people were more or less aesthetically pleasing and nice to look at but I had no "targeted" sexual desire.
I got into my first relationship when a gaming friend online "confessed" and made me feel wanted and desired. I was very interested in sex at first, but after we moved in together the relationship went sour and I lost all of my desire. I was celibate for something like 6 years. Sex or being sexual just didn't occur to me, but he was constantly pressuring me and guilt tripping me for "withholding" intimacy.
Eventually I got out of that relationship and started trying to date, which was a whole new challenge. How do you communicate to the average allosexual that you might be interested in dating them, but you're not currently attracted to them, but if we get along things might turn romantic, but if they do then sex might not be soon or frequent or consistent? Thank goodness for online dating. Trying to find partners that had the same life goals and values, with similar interests, with a compatible attitude towards sex in the age range and location I needed was like looking for a unicorn. I finally found my husband, who met all of my criteria (and I met his), who also identifies as somewhere on the ace spectrum. We can share life and physical intimacy, and sex is something we can have if we both feel like it, but sometimes we just don't and that's fine. Our relationship isn't perfect, no relationships are, but we both found something that works for us.
Totally agree on the label being something not defective or negative being a wonderful thing.
I'm so glad online dating makes it possible for Aces to find each other!! I think that if more kids understand what's going on with them is normal, and that they just gotta find folks who also sing at their tempo, there will be far fewer relationships where someone is always in pain from having to push and the other is also in pain from being pushed.
Yes, in fact quite a few people I dated weren't really familiar with asexuality as an alignment before they met me. I was selecting romantic prospects mostly from clues and vibes, and after I told them how I identified they realized they might fall on the ace spectrum as well. There is much less awareness in general for aces, the majority of dating sites don't even acknowledge it, and I think the more people that chip in and say "hey there's nothing wrong with me" the better.
I don't have questions, here is my digital hug 🫂
I guess one comment is you go girls. Hope life is a good ride for you, no matter what your sexual orientation is ❤️
From one ace to another, thank you for bringing attention to this topic! Even within the LGBT community, I find people’s knowledge on asexuality to be generally lacking, and our unique struggles can be difficult to convey and understand for those who don’t relate.
I'm so thankful for everyone who's chipped in to this topic :D