37
votes
The best and brightest don’t want to stay in Canada. I should know: I’m one of the few in my engineering class who did.
Link information
This data is scraped automatically and may be incorrect.
- Authors
- Bilal Akhtar Contributor
- Published
- Jul 14 2024
- Word count
- 89 words
I'm pleasantly surprised to see so many articles about Canada on tildes.
I recently got my bachelor's (cs/eng area) in Canada, and what the author talks about is definitely a thing. Everybody is itching to leave. Anecdotally, for my (slightly above average) friend group, 20/25 are going to the states for full time. And this was during a bad year for tech.
Reasons for not staying in Canada:
It's actually insane how far the economy of Canada has backslid in the past 10 years (at least compared to the US), and I personally don't think there's any long term viability.
Everyone who I've met that grew up here and is career driven, wants out.
I'm also a Canadian software dev, and have been for 10 years, and totally understand the higher pay, lower COL things, but have NEVER been tempted to move the US. I never really understood how it was worth giving up the things like... health care access? Because every story I hear out of the US is a nightmare, even when you're insured. But I'm also a woman, and apparently that comes with higher healthcare needs than men in my age group, in my experience.
But I ended up with the best of both worlds, and married an American software dev who got to keep his job (with a few hoops) and complete the dream of moving to Canada, so, we're doing pretty well.
As a systems / signal processing engineer in the US right now, I can honestly say that I may be looking to move out of the country pending the results of the next election.
Honestly, I would gladly take a hit in pay to feel less constantly on-edge about the state of the country. I don’t really know if my nerves about the US would lessen if I were living in another country, but I like to think they would.
I am from the US and my partner is from Australia. He is a talented developer and frequently gets companies trying to head hunt him out of the blue, even though he does not have a resume online, does not use LinkedIn, etc.
When we started dating, we weighed up our options: He could immigrate to the US or I could immigrate to Australia.
Even though his salary options were much better in the US, we ultimately decided on Australia for a few reasons. The main ones were Australia's saner healthcare system, Australia's saner political system, and access to his family farm. For that, we gave up a much higher income and proximity to my family.
My immigration strategy for getting into Australia did require my partner to get an employment visa to the US for a time (we needed to live together for at least a year before I submitted my visa application), and his experience with American work culture confirmed our decision. Although he made good money, he was miserable the whole time and, to this day, wishes we had found some other way to live together for the required time — like backpacking around Europe or something.
That being said, we bee-lined for my Australian citizenship, because once I gained that, we could move anywhere at our leisure and still have the option to always come back to Australia. Our plan was to move to the US for a few years to bulk up our savings, and then come back to Australia wealthier. But I've had my citizenship for years now, and we've still never bothered. Every time we travel there to visit my family, we conveniently "forget" to look into it.
The truth is that, while we are not wealthy, we are quite comfortable (it helps living on a family farm without a mortgage!). Moving to the US would be exquisitely uncomfortable — and everything that deterred us back then (namely US healthcare and political instability) has only gotten worse.
The healthcare issue in the US is kind of a moot point with regards to your own self interest if you're an employed software dev. American healthcare is very much you get what you pay for, and most working developers have lucrative careers with generous benefits packages. I would wager a guess that people in that category receive some of the best healthcare in the entire world; most of the worlds best hospitals are in the US.
The problem with US healthcare isn't that it's bad. It's actually very good. Personally, I have very good insurance, and it enables me to see my GP the same week if I want, and basically any specialist I want within a couple of weeks without needing a referral. I pay 10 bucks to see my GP, and around 30 for a specialist. I usually don't pay anything for drugs. If I had a serious issue, I could go to a world class hospital and get amazing, cutting edge treatments while paying virtually nothing for it.
The problem is that a huge portion of our population can't access care like that, because they can't afford it, and they don't have jobs that subsidize the cost like I do. That's the whole point of the US healthcare system. Gatekeep the world's best healthcare exclusively to the globally wealthy while keeping everyone else out. The system isn't broken, it's working as designed.
That's why conservatives in this country hate the affordable healthcare act. It, at least in a very small way, "breaks" the well tuned machine that they built up over the past 70 years.
That's kind of the US in nutshell. An incredible land of opportunity, comfort, and adventure if you have money, and hell on earth if you don't.
Which then plays into the whole "earn your supper" and "striving for the American dream" thing, where people are told they can join the "haves" if they just work hard enough, which is thoroughly embedded in our culture to the point that even many who suffer under this system see no issue with it, because they feel they've earned whatever amount of social standing they have relative to others with less and don't want to "lose" it.
I find it a little funny how this perfectly mirrors the sentiment in New Zealand, except people would argue it is worse over here (e.g. 40k-50k USD starting CS/ENG salary).
Culturally, is new Zealand to Australia what Canada is to the US?
Do people dream of moving to Australia?
Pretty much. I'm going to mirror the first post and cross out the things that aren't the same as yours. Keep in mind I'm listing sentiments; they're not necessarily true on closer inspection!
Pay is much higher in Aus
Cost of living isn't as bad
Taxes are actually mostly higher in Aus, though it balances out in Aus's favour when considering pay & CoLReal estate is totally fucked in NZ (worse than Canada), but Aus isn't as bad
Weak tech sector, kiwi companies inevitably get bought by Aussie companies
Go work in the Aussie office if you don't want to be short-changed
Same derision of immigration but for different reasons; easier to immigrate world->NZ->Aus than directly world->Aus. Also NZ companies offer very low pay then complain to the government that they need more cheap immigrants because there aren't enough engineers/seasonal workers here.
Our infrastructure is old and crumbling, successive governments for decades have focused on cars/roads and have incredibly bad long term planning. Aus (Melbourne) has vastly better non-car infrastructure, not to mention the rest of the world.
We don't really have patriotism/national identity, but neither does AusIt may be just my specific circumstances but I would not agree with with the real state comment (the rest are spot on). I think it's much worse in Aus than in NZ, you can get properties with heaps of land in NZ for what you pay for an apartment in Australia.
Make sure you're comparing inner major city to inner major city, minor city to minor city, and rural to rural. House prices can be wildly different depending on where in a country you look. I could easily find the opposite if I compared Auckland or Wellington to somewhere semi-rural in Aus.
That said, like most English-speaking countries at the moment kiwis are having a "grass is greener" crises and assume the issues they face aren't present in other countries.
Why is real estate so bad in NZ?
Real estate investment is greatly incentivised, in part due to it being tax-free. A large speculation industry drives the prices up a lot.
This is a little strange to hear as someone in the US. Obviously you know people who moved the US for those reasons, but many seem faulty?
Lower Pay: I don't think too many entry level CS jobs in the US start at $130k, but if they do it's likely in high COL areas, which leads me to...
Lower COL: In somewhere that pays $130k starting wage? Especially in the wild world of layoffs?
Higher taxes: sure, but you at least see more of a benefit from your tax dollars. We have to pay for medical care in the US. My job is shitty enough to offer worse benefits than I can get outside via the marketplace. What I have now is >$300/mo for the premiums, there's still copays, and diagnostic tests are still many hundreds of dollars. I know a lot of upper end tech companies have better offerings, but startups may not.
The rest of your list seems on point, though.
The thing is that Canadian CoL is quite high across the board. Vancouver and Toronto are about the same CoL as Seattle and the Bay. You move ~5 hours south of the border from Vancouver and you can make easily double your salary for the same level.
This is also the upper echelons of Canadian talent people are usually talking about - eg your Waterloo grads. Most Waterloo newgrads can easily get $200k+ starting positions in the US.
I'm a decade out of Waterloo, still in Canada, and haven't hit $200k (CAD) yet. I'm quite comfortable and I don't regret staying in Canada, but I definitely understand the desire to move to the states for the much bigger salary.
I think if I were to start over, I probably would try to work in the states for about 5 years, build up a nice nest egg, and then move back to Canada. But after 5 years in the states, maybe I'd have ended up staying.
Yeah the consensus with my friends is do 10 years in the states and move back to Canada to settle down and raise a family
High real estate prices are a huge problem in many places, but it also seems like a “nobody goes there, it’s too crowded” kind of thing? People are bidding those prices up for reasons. I guess it’s not the software developers, though?
And of course, investors can be wrong. How wrong are they?
As a Canadian engineer who did get brain drained to America (later in my career though), a big wrinkle here is that it isn't like people are being brain drained to the United States, they're being brain drained to one of the maybe four big tech cities there -- the SF Bay Area, Seattle (Microsoft and Amazon), and to a lesser extent New York. You could run the same article for most states in America too, someone growing up in say Michigan, going to Umich, and then what do they do after graduating? Hey they also move to one of those cities. It's not like Canadians are en masse moving to Ruston, Louisiana or New Haven, Connecticut.
I decided to try the America experiment after 10 years of working in Canada because I got bored during covid and wanted a change in my life, and also I kept hearing about big tech salaries in America and wanted to cash in before the boom ends (if it does). I make a lot more in America (although NYC has many ways to try and sap that from me, but hasn't succeeded yet), but my quality of life back home was roughly the same. It's only a 1.5 hour flight back home too, so it wasn't an arduous journey nor does it feel hard to come back.
I think this sentiment also applies to many countries in the world too, this is just from a Canadian source. What do a good number of European software engineers try to do? Hey they want to try and go to SF (or Seattle yadda yadda) for their big pay day. Same with Indians (huge source of H1B applicants), and Asians, and probably most people if they can cut it. I don't think this is a uniquely Canadian phenomena (although the ease of getting work authorization is way easier than most places), it's more like USA just has an outsized tech sector from venture capital and finance pumping insane amounts of money in and causing salaries to blossom.
Whilst I don't want to detract from your experiences, I'd be personally hard pressed to say many engineers from Europe come over to the USA for better job prospects. From my own experience, those in the poorer parts of Europe go to west Europe, and those in west Europe go to Scandinavia (Sweden usually, Stockholm is a giant tech hub). Those already in Scandinavia stay put generally.
I don't really know how to say this, I don't mean offense I promise, but as someone from an affluent west European country there are 0 reasons to go to the USA over staying here. Any increase in salary is immediately nullified by removal of (mostly) free healthcare as well as the terrifying job security in the USA (i.e. At will jobs that seem to be the norm, a limited number of sick days, no legal minimum paid time off or even if there's a minimum it's 1/3rd of the standard here).
I used to dream of going to the USA at some point during my career, but unfortunately those dreams started evaporating around the time a certain president was voted into office..
As an American working in tech who would very much like these changed at the policy level for the good of the country, they are honestly not really problems well paid software engineers face.
I don’t like paying for healthcare but my salary is so much higher that I’m coming out ahead even if I hit the out of pocket max for my family and insurance costs are generally covered by employer.
At will employment is real but it also makes it easier to change jobs for a significant increase in salary. If you’re someone who wants to stay in one company I can see how Europe’s model would be preferable.
At my current job I get 22 days off with 13 holidays and the last week of December off. Plus 15 paid sick days that carry over year to year. That’s probably less than some European countries but not the “you only get 2 weeks, no sick days” doom and gloom you hear online.
Software people are paid well and being paid well avoids most of the problems of the American system, as sad as that is. On an individual level rather than a societal level I don’t think it’s all that different and you get paid a whole lot more. That’s not everything, obviously, but software engineers in the US are living very nice lives.
I agree with most of your post, but I should note that at will employment doesn't cut both ways. You don't have to work your notice in Europe. References might be affected though.
I think you’re underestimating the salary difference. For high performers, as a SWE your pay really caps out at around 80-90k in Europe. You can easily get 500k in the US. That’s not a difference shittier healthcare is going to overcome.
It’s true it’s not worthwhile to go from Sweden to Texas to work at HP for 100k the same way it could be worth for someone from India, but if you have the chops to work at high tech the difference is very big, both in compensation and the kind of work. Europe has very few large tech companies.
i understand that you have a good job, but most people are not getting 500k easily
Sure, but that's why I specified high performers. Again, it's true it doesn't really make sense, for both the candidates, and the employers (who have to navigate H1B and provide moving assistance) to hire Europeans for low to mid paying jobs, but anyone who's worked at a major tech company knows that there's a lot of Europeans poached by high salaries and high impact work in the ranks.
i don't think it's a question that us salaries are higher and that that causes migration, but i think you are exaggerating the differences. on the other side, too—both 'real' jobs i have had have been remote tech work for european companies, and my pay has been above the 90k cap you give. and i may be technically impressive, but i have no seniority and am bad at negotiating; my coworkers make more. (and the current gig has some equity-like games too.)
The healthcare point is particularly moot for a lot of healthy young individuals whose need for those services is easily covered by whatever their job provides.
re:healthcare, If you go to a shitty tech company here, sure, but I've been in a small-mid company and mid-large size company and they've both covered my health insurance premiums. Maybe I'm paying like $15/month; I don't remember but it's small if anything. My out-of-pocket max is $3k a year and the company gives $1k.
At both companies I've had unlimited PTO and have always been encouraged to take as much as I want, and then more. They've both shut down during the winter holidays for 1.5 weeks.
The reason to come to the US would be to have a chance of making $500k/year. It's not worth coming over here to make $80k, but the ceiling is higher here.
The problem isn't (just) how much it costs each month. The insurance-based healthcare system is limiting, bureaucratic, and financially risky when something goes wrong.
In Australia, I can see any doctor I want to see. I'm not tied to any GP or medical practice. I have 4-5 different GPs at different practices that I see regularly based on their special interests and how I like to be looked after (e.g., one that I see for musculoskeletal stuff, one for skin issues, one for vaccines and routine healthcare, etc.). And if I'm traveling or if I need a doctor's visit on very short notice, I can go online and book any GP in the area who has a free spot — which means I can almost always see a GP within 30 minutes, despite living out in the boonies. My parents in the US, in the meantime, have had long waits even for time-sensitive health issues because they can only use "in-network" healthcare providers.
I never have to deal with billing nonsense, even for emergency care or hospital visits. I never get a bill in the mail and never have to speak to any insurance provider. I go to the hospital, get treated, and leave. Meanwhile, my parents in the US were still getting unexpected hospital bills and having to call their insurance for years after my little brother passed away — something that re-triggered their immense grief every time it happened.
You can end up paying a lot more than you expect even with "good" insurance. One of my partner's relatives lives in the US for career reasons (he is Australian) and had a well-regarded health insurance through his employer — but when his daughter developed cancer, he found it was more affordable to take an unpaid year of absence and move his family back to Australia for his daughter's cancer treatment, than to stay in the US and use his employer-provided health insurance. It turns out his "good" insurance didn't actually cover all the treatments he needed it to cover.
As someone in the SF Bay Area, I can confirm that there seems to be a direct Toronto -> SF pipeline. Often times in social groups here 75% of the people are Canadian.
For what it’s worth, there’s similar effects at a smaller scale within the US. It’s not uncommon for smart people here to leave their hometown and often also home state and move to wherever the grass is greenest for their particular field.
Using my own case as an example, there is very little where I grew up in Appalachia for me as a software engineer, and what little exists is not remotely compelling relative to what’s available in major tech hub metros, even when taking into account the massive cost of living differences. Compensation, prospects, and variety are all dramatically better. As such, like many others, I moved out.
This has major implications for the areas being brain-drained, both in the short and long term, putting them into downward spirals that are hard to stop and even more difficult to reverse. It’s difficult to prosper when bright young people are far and few between.
Yep, this mirrors my experience talking to students from Canada. When I was a uni student looking for tech internships just a few years ago, I was part of a large discord server where people helped each other prepare for interview gauntlets that had students across the US and Canada. I can't recall any of the Canadian students wanting to stay in Canada. Both domestic and international students who had gone to uni in Canada for the low cost were looking to hop to the US just because of the vast number of opportunities.
I always wonder why, when I read about 'brain drain' of the "best and the brightest" the articles are almost exclusively about software engineers or IT related occupations? Are other professions not filled with the "best and brightest"?
As the father of two doctors who have no intention of leaving Canada, I guess I always feel like its a very narrow perspective when people, even here on Tildes, proclaim that "everyone who is career driven is going to the US"
Could it be that those in the IT/software related fields are, in general, quite young, and likely haven't put down the roots that tend to keep people planted - such as having children enrolled in a school in a district they moved into just to attend that school? Such as having parents living close by who can assist with childcare of young ones?
And possibly, since our tech industries are generally centered in the most expensive cities in Canada, the incentive to move is much greater since housing in those centers is generally unaffordable? Other high paying professional careers are much more spread out across Canada and if one can buy a great home in Calgary for 1M instead of 2.5M in Toronto, there's far less desire to get out of Canada?
Can’t speak for Canada, but in the US it’s not that unusual for people from any field to move for career purposes, sometimes multiple times, even if they have kids and regardless of any other roots that had been put down by that point. You just get used to starting over and getting along on your own.
Whether or not that’s good is another matter.
$1M instead of $2.5M is still an excessive sum for real estate that's not in the downtown districts.
Not for a doctor its not. I was a bit shocked at first because Ive been into real estate in Alberta for almost 40 years now, but only for 'average' homes in regular suburbs, where the averages are currently running around 500k to 700k. So when my daughter started looking at 1M+ homes I thought it was a crazy high price. But after seeing the one they bought for 1.3M, its not anything spectacular. Its nice. Its got a great view. But its not a McMansion, its 30 yrs old and needs some renovations. You wouldn't drive by and think 'oh they must be loaded' Its just a nice home in a nicer than average neighborhood. The 'oh wow, what an amazing house!' start closer to 2M here. Which, I agree, is just bananas.
Funny title, author seem to be assuming he's part of the "best and brightest".
Archive