What a coincidence. Just last night, I had my first encounter with these new anti-theft measures at my neighborhood Fred Meyer, the Kroger subsidiary where I'm from. The self checkout refused to...
What a coincidence. Just last night, I had my first encounter with these new anti-theft measures at my neighborhood Fred Meyer, the Kroger subsidiary where I'm from. The self checkout refused to complete my transaction until signed off by the overworked attendant, because their cameras decided that my water bottle and prescription meds in the cart were unscanned items. Not that it gave me a chance to even know what the issue was until the attendant came over. So I spent several frustrating minutes punished for my honesty, while I fail to understand how this obtuse system prevents any shoplifting other than an honest customer forgetting something in their cart, because anyone who wants to not pay for their goods can easily walk past the checkouts.
They could prevent this problem entirely by just keeping their regular checkout lines staffed instead of pushing people towards self checkout. In my opinion, the only really good use for self...
They could prevent this problem entirely by just keeping their regular checkout lines staffed instead of pushing people towards self checkout.
In my opinion, the only really good use for self checkout is when you're buying few enough items that you don't need a cart to begin with, similar to the "10 items or less" checkout lanes that used to be common.
Alternately, we could go to a more modern version of the traditional general store. In the traditional general/dry goods store, everything was behind the counter. The process of walking around...
They could prevent this problem entirely by just keeping their regular checkout lines staffed instead of pushing people towards self checkout.
Alternately, we could go to a more modern version of the traditional general store. In the traditional general/dry goods store, everything was behind the counter. The process of walking around with a cart and selecting items from shelves was something that came about with the invention of supermarkets in the mid 20th century. In the traditional general store, you could get your items one of two ways. You could walk in, tell them what you want, and wait for them to grab it. Or, you could send them an order request and drop by at a certain time to pick it up, similar to modern curbside pickup.
If the stores want to cut down on labor that much, they should abandon the cart and aisles approach all together. Invest in the necessary infrastructure and automation to allow orders to be placed and gathered automatically. Make the whole store automated and pickup only. The only thing this wouldn't work for is fresh produce, which people really want to be able to feel and inspect. To that end, you could have a traditional produce section, but everything else is automated and gathered by drones/conveyors, etc. With the exception of the veggies, customers don't even get to touch merchandise they haven't paid for. Suddenly, theft is a non-issue. And most fruits and veggies aren't really worth the hassle of trying to steal; they're not that valuable to start with, and they have no resale value. You're not going to steal an apple and then flip it on craigslist.
The problem Kroger is having is that they're stuck in the lowest point of miserly cheapness. They don't want to invest in enough labor to properly staff all their stores. They're operating all their stores lean, with not enough people around to keep an eye on things and prevent theft. They could also stop theft by investing in enough automation that everything except the produce section is entirely automated. But again, they don't want to invest enough to do that.
So they're stuck in this awkward middle stage. They have too few people to properly staff their stores, but they don't have the automation and store design needed to operate on a skeleton crew. So predictably, theft is rampant (especially when tied to usurious price increases). And now they're turning to AI as a desperate hail Mary to save them from their own idiocy. They hope that AI can be used to carefully monitor all the customers they're forcing to perform the work of the cashiers they fired. But of course, that's not really possible. There are just too many variables; too many shapes of human bodies; too many types of goods; too many places people might legitimately store goods before and after checkout. And that's before we get into things like racial bias in visual recognition systems.
Ultimately, this may cause the collapse of Kroger. The executives can't properly staff their stores again, as they've conditioned their shareholders to expect a certain profit level. The CEO can't return things to healthy payroll levels without slashing profits and losing their job. They in turn could invest in truly automated stores. But again, the shareholders are addicted to unsustainably high profits. So they're now attempting this band-aid hack of a solution, trying to use AI.
It may end up dooming Kroger. Maybe in some small towns Kroger is the only option. But in the cities where most of the population lives, people do have options on where to shop. And at some point, dealing with all the hassle of shopping at Kroger will just encourage people to shop elsewhere. I can get overpriced groceries some place that doesn't treat me like a criminal. And this may really harm Kroger in the long run. If they start losing customers, well, again, they've already conditioned their shareholders to expect unsustainably high profits. With declining revenue, they'll find it even more difficult to increase staffing or invest in useful automation. So they'll have to keep trying to squeeze their customers even harder. They'll have to treat them more and more like criminals. They'll have to try to force even more of the store's labor upon them.
How long do you think it will be until they start informing customers that it's their responsibility to restock or reface shelves? How long do you think until using a cart requires a $10 deposit? Hell, they might even try to offload the work of fixing the shitty self-checkout machines. Maybe instead of calling an associate over when there's a problem, you'll have the option of dragging three other customers over, having them scan their drivers licenses, and you all can vouch for the honesty of your purchase? I wouldn't put it past them if they tried to convince us it was our responsibility to mop the floors.
Where I live, we have Kroger (under a local brand name), Associated Foods (under another local brand name), and an actual locally owned and operated chain. The Kroger and Associated Foods stores...
Where I live, we have Kroger (under a local brand name), Associated Foods (under another local brand name), and an actual locally owned and operated chain.
The Kroger and Associated Foods stores are always running on skeleton staff, and make you jump through a lot of hoops to get the real prices on items like clipping digital coupons for soda. They're also just kinda dingy.
The local chain however, always has cashiers at the checkout, the stores are nice and clean, the staff is friendly, and the produce selection is much better. They're even better about stocking limited time junk food releases (think seasonal Mountain Dew and Doritos flavors), which are a guilty pleasure of mine. All without charging noticeably more than the national chains.
This proves to me that all the cost cutting and other nasty shit these grocery chains are pulling are not necessary to run a sustainable business. It is all fueled entirely by greed.
It's not even a good business decision. Trader Joe's makes more money per square foot of floor space than traditional chain grocery stores and has fully staffed checkout lines in their stores. The...
It's not even a good business decision. Trader Joe's makes more money per square foot of floor space than traditional chain grocery stores and has fully staffed checkout lines in their stores. The bad experience in Kroger and Albertson's stores are because they have monopolies over the grocery market in many places and know people there don't have other options.
If anything, the big national chains should be able to offer better products, better service, and at better prices than local stores. That's the entire principle of economies of scale. If you...
If anything, the big national chains should be able to offer better products, better service, and at better prices than local stores. That's the entire principle of economies of scale. If you double the number of employees your company has, you don't need an HR department twice as large. You don't need two CEOs, or one paid twice as much. A distribution warehouse that can house 100,000 widgets does not cost twice what one that houses 50,000 widgets does. They can get better deals by buying from suppliers in larger quantities, etc.
If anything, with as big as they are, every Kroger should be a veritable shopping Shangri-La. But I notice the same, the big national stores are always dirtier and charge more than the smaller local stores. They do benefit from those economies of scale, but they just funnel all those gains to executives and shareholders.
We could also bring back the local co-ops. Where everyone has a stake in the community grocery store, so everyone takes care of it. And those who can't afford to shop, can get what they need...
We could also bring back the local co-ops. Where everyone has a stake in the community grocery store, so everyone takes care of it. And those who can't afford to shop, can get what they need anyway without being ashamed or intimidated into being unable to get food.
Co-ops are not a silver bullet. My closest grocery store is a co-op. I can walk there easily in under 20 minutes without crossing any major roads. Despite that I still typically get in the car and...
Co-ops are not a silver bullet. My closest grocery store is a co-op. I can walk there easily in under 20 minutes without crossing any major roads. Despite that I still typically get in the car and go to one of the chain stores, for two reasons:
They're much cheaper. I spend 20-30% more at the co-op, and there doesn't seem to be any single driver. All items are just slightly more costly. That's despite each co-op member being required to make a $100 deposit into the development fund. They just don't have the scale to compete on price.
The variety is much better. I'm guessing it's for similar economy-of-scale reasons, but the co-op just doesn't have certain things and other items they sell out of quickly. For instance, I can almost never find cilantro at the co-op unless I make a point of going early on a weekday. Other things are less important but still enough to make me prefer the large chains – like a specific brand of seltzer that I can only find at Safeway or Giant.
It's really a bummer, because I much prefer to support the local business. Oftentimes I bite the bullet and shop there anyway, just accepting that I likely won't find everything I want. But that's hard to stomach when it also comes at a premium.
That's basically true for taking any stand for progress. It's less convienient than the status quo. Walking is slower than driving, but reduces carbon footprint. Unionized grocery stores cost more...
I likely won't find everything I want. But that's hard to stomach when it also comes at a premium.
That's basically true for taking any stand for progress. It's less convienient than the status quo.
Walking is slower than driving, but reduces carbon footprint.
Unionized grocery stores cost more than others, but the employeea earn significantly more.
Sustainable meat costs substantially more and variety is lower. But its lower carbon footprint and more humane than industrial meat prouction and global imports.
I understand that, but when my menu for the week includes a Mexican dish and the co-op is out of cilantro, avocados, and jalapeños, it stops being a mere inconvenience and just means I have to go...
I understand that, but when my menu for the week includes a Mexican dish and the co-op is out of cilantro, avocados, and jalapeños, it stops being a mere inconvenience and just means I have to go to the other store anyway. So not only did I take the extra time to walk there and back, and pay the 25% premium, I also have to get in the car and drive somewhere afterwards. After that happens enough times it makes me less likely to go to the co-op at all, unless I know for a fact they're going to have everything I need.
What that means is that you plan your menu around availability of foods rather than expecting whatever you want to always be available. Which is kind of how things worked before global trade...
What that means is that you plan your menu around availability of foods rather than expecting whatever you want to always be available. Which is kind of how things worked before global trade enabled year-round access to fresh produce, and why many recipies before 1950something relied heavily on pickled or dried foods and seasonal produce.
No reason you couldn't use pickled jalepenos, dried cilantro, and bottled lime juice. These were the tactics before global shipping of fresh foods.
Not saying you're wrong, but if the paramount goal is 'supporting local over megacorp,' thats the kind of mental process change that is needed.
Sure, but the topic here is co-ops as an alternative to chain grocery stores. I'm probably more willing to accept additional friction to my shopping experience than most, and as I said in my first...
Sure, but the topic here is co-ops as an alternative to chain grocery stores. I'm probably more willing to accept additional friction to my shopping experience than most, and as I said in my first comment I do still shop there with the understanding that it's going to be a lower quality and more expensive experience. But until the co-op can provide a similar level of service to the major chains then it's not going to be the main option for most. It's just another form of the personal responsibility argument vis-à-vis climate change or transit – unless the most sustainable option is either the most convenient or only option, most people are not going to choose it.
The ultimate answer is to tax the bejesus out of food imports and raise minimum wages significantly. These are two of the biggest advantages the big providers have. And small providers will never...
The ultimate answer is to tax the bejesus out of food imports and raise minimum wages significantly. These are two of the biggest advantages the big providers have. And small providers will never be able to outcompete the Walmarts (or Krogers) of the world on their own.
You've either got to subsidize the small guy or penalize the big guy. Ideally both when we're in these massive megacorp situations where one company owns half the stores in the nation.
Are you kidding me? When I was broke, and self-checkout was new and poorly protected, #1 tactic was to lift half the weight of each produce item. It was like a $20 off coupon every single week....
And most fruits and veggies aren't really worth the hassle of trying to steal; they're not that valuable to start with, and they have no resale value.
Are you kidding me? When I was broke, and self-checkout was new and poorly protected, #1 tactic was to lift half the weight of each produce item. It was like a $20 off coupon every single week.
And the risk was virtually 0 compared to stealing high-value items.
And yet, they're not locking fruits and veggies behind cages. Yes, if you are subsisting off of rice and beans, veggies will be the most expensive part of your order. But for most people, the more...
And yet, they're not locking fruits and veggies behind cages. Yes, if you are subsisting off of rice and beans, veggies will be the most expensive part of your order. But for most people, the more expensive items will be meat, processed foods, or general goods like laundry detergent. Yes, in the past, it was easier to steal these by fudging the weights or ringing up organic produce as regular produce. But one, this has gotten harder with better equipment and employee training. And two, again, produce doesn't have a lot of resale value. Stores aren't really that concerned about a broke kid ringing up a pound of onions as a half pound. They're more concerned about large scale theft, where people buy items to later sell online. And veggies really don't have any resale value.
Most people shoplifting from grocery stores aren't looking to resell. You'll get bigger bang for your buck walking out of walmart/target/etc with electronics then any product in a grocery store.
Most people shoplifting from grocery stores aren't looking to resell.
You'll get bigger bang for your buck walking out of walmart/target/etc with electronics then any product in a grocery store.
I like your general store idea. Kind of the opposite of those Amazon stores. I finally went to one for the first time a month or so ago and found it pretty creepy to be so hyper aware of all the...
I like your general store idea. Kind of the opposite of those Amazon stores. I finally went to one for the first time a month or so ago and found it pretty creepy to be so hyper aware of all the cameras on me.
As an introvert, please keep self checkout. It should be optional, and there is a large portion of the population that shouldn’t use it (if you need the attendant to help you with every item, just...
As an introvert, please keep self checkout. It should be optional, and there is a large portion of the population that shouldn’t use it (if you need the attendant to help you with every item, just use a normal lane), but I want the option. There are stores that I avoid because they don’t have self checkout.
Last time I went to a Kroger I had to deal with that AI. The machine kept accusing me of stealing for trying to use my own bag. There's bag mandates here that charge you for buying paper sacks at...
Last time I went to a Kroger I had to deal with that AI. The machine kept accusing me of stealing for trying to use my own bag. There's bag mandates here that charge you for buying paper sacks at the store, bringing your own is pretty standard.
The other store across the street seems to be doing fine without these so-called loss prevention methods. They're targeted towards lower income folk, but their quality to cost ratio is whack -- their food sucks. They've sold actively rotting produce, their store brand is just awful, and they use scummy pricing tactics. This opinion seems to be singular between my partner and I amongst all the folks I know around here though.
I’ll be honest, I’ve never experienced any of what’s discussed in the article at any of the Krogers I’ve been to (Georgia and South Carolina). The closest was one time when I skipped bagging a few...
I’ll be honest, I’ve never experienced any of what’s discussed in the article at any of the Krogers I’ve been to (Georgia and South Carolina). The closest was one time when I skipped bagging a few items and declined the option for a receipt at self-checkout, but even that was a case of “nobody realized you could completely decline a receipt.” But all our toiletries are in the same part of the store, I don’t think I’ve ever seen security, etc. I wonder where the author lives?
I think it's pretty clear the author lives in a high crime area. Stores don't do this kind of stuff for fun -- it's expensive, and as the author points out (repeatedly, excessively) , irritating...
I think it's pretty clear the author lives in a high crime area. Stores don't do this kind of stuff for fun -- it's expensive, and as the author points out (repeatedly, excessively) , irritating to customers. I do get the feeling that the author's ire is misplaced. The problem here is shoplifters, not the store -- and if Kroger can't get the shoplifting under control, they may well close their doors, leaving the author without a grocery store.
I'm not entirely sure about that. There was a bunch of high-profile stories that got really popular in the past few years about organized retail theft, where grocery and drug stores would have...
I'm not entirely sure about that. There was a bunch of high-profile stories that got really popular in the past few years about organized retail theft, where grocery and drug stores would have gangs of people walk in and march out with huge hauls without anyone being able to stop them. It turned out to be a near-lie; It's not like that kind of thing never happened at all, but it was extremely rare and not a commonplace thing like the retailers were making it sound.
I don't know about gangs of people, but I see grocery store theft nearly every day, and that's how it works -- people get their hands on a product and then they just stroll out with it, typically...
I don't know about gangs of people, but I see grocery store theft nearly every day, and that's how it works -- people get their hands on a product and then they just stroll out with it, typically with an LPO walking them out the door. As far as I can tell, the LPO's job ends once the thief has the product -- their primary objective is to identify and prevent thieves from entering the store to begin with. I assume it's liability reasons preventing them from actively taking the product back when it might result in a real or feigned injury and accompanying lawsuit.
I used to work as a security guard. They have basically 0 legal authority to do anything. Security guards are, in the eyes of the law, not any different than a normal person. They can detain...
I used to work as a security guard. They have basically 0 legal authority to do anything. Security guards are, in the eyes of the law, not any different than a normal person. They can detain someone with a citizen’s arrest, but they have the same requirements as any normal citizen’s arrest. If I remember correctly, you must witness a person committing a felony. So when most shopkeeping is petty theft, they can’t even legally detain someone. Our goal is to “Observe and Report”. I worked at a location that secured department of defense secrets. If you walked in the door PayDay style with a drill and started drilling the safe, I wouldn’t (and legally couldn’t) do anything to stop you. I sure as hell would call the police (and possibly the FBI), but I wouldn’t even stand in your way.
Are you sure you're actually witnessing theft and not just something that looks to you like theft?
I don't know about gangs of people, but I see grocery store theft nearly every day, and that's how it works -- people get their hands on a product and then they just stroll out with it, typically with an LPO walking them out the door
Are you sure you're actually witnessing theft and not just something that looks to you like theft?
The issue I can see with confiscating goods they think are being stolen is that they will at some point make the mistake of taking an item someone brought from home or had actually paid for....
The issue I can see with confiscating goods they think are being stolen is that they will at some point make the mistake of taking an item someone brought from home or had actually paid for. Imagine the fallout that would result from the grocery store stealing items you just paid them for.
Presumably they could verify on the security footage. At least where I shop, it's extensive. One time I lost my sunglasses, and the security guy followed my progress backwards through the footage...
Presumably they could verify on the security footage. At least where I shop, it's extensive. One time I lost my sunglasses, and the security guy followed my progress backwards through the footage until he found where I dropped them -- I was never out of perfect view of a camera the entire time.
I think Kroger wants to have their cake and eat it too. My local QFC (one of their million store brands) has about a dozen cashier checkout lines but typically has between 0 and 2 open. I’m...
I think Kroger wants to have their cake and eat it too. My local QFC (one of their million store brands) has about a dozen cashier checkout lines but typically has between 0 and 2 open.
I’m relatively cost-conscious while shopping, and legitimately could not tell you how much my cart will cost when I get to checkout because the design of their price tags is so (intentionally!!) hard to decipher. At another store down the street I’m able to approximate my total cost to within $5. Fortunately I can afford unpredictable grocery bills but a lot of people cannot- I am not at all surprised people are willing to steal from Kroger.
Ultimately shoplifting is not a Kroger problem but is a community problem. We should be looking at what is causing people to want or need to shoplift and address the root causes, rather than increasing surveillance.
How so? Because their price tags are confusing? I'm having some difficulty understanding how price tags can so confusing that it makes them a legitimate target of theft. I think Kroger's pretty...
I think Kroger wants to have their cake and eat it too.
How so?
I am not at all surprised people are willing to steal from Kroger.
Because their price tags are confusing? I'm having some difficulty understanding how price tags can so confusing that it makes them a legitimate target of theft.
We should be looking at what is causing people to want or need to shoplift and address the root causes, rather than increasing surveillance.
I think Kroger's pretty justified in trying to stop theft rather than trying to solve the general societal problem of people being willing to steal from them.
Not the one you replied to, but they're absolutely trying to have their cake and eat it to. They have deliberately understaffed their stores. They're a multi-billion dollar company. At that scale,...
How so?
Not the one you replied to, but they're absolutely trying to have their cake and eat it to. They have deliberately understaffed their stores. They're a multi-billion dollar company. At that scale, nothing is left to chance. Companies that big don't just hire architects to design their stores; they hire psychologists. They fine tune everything from the store layout to the paint color to the aisle width to subtly influence customers to spend more money. This is why the cheap low-margin staples, like milk, are always at the far back of the store. The stores deliberately force you to walk past all the high-margin processed foods to get to the real foods.
Anyway, I cite store design as an example of how much thought they put into their operations. And the blindingly obvious downside of a store lowering their payroll is that it results in more theft. Imagine if I tried to run a grocery store on the honor system. No checkout at all, no scanning of items. I'll just put a big basket out front. Grab what you want, add the totals in your head, throw cash in the basket on the way out.
What do you think would happen if I did that? Would anyone be surprised if the store didn't last a week due to rampant theft? Of course not. And no one would have any sympathy for me.
The cost of running your stores on a skeleton crew is that theft will rise. They knew that before they contracted their staffing. And now they're still complaining about soaring theft levels. It was as inevitable as the Sun rising in the morning. And now they're forcing law-abiding customers to endure demeaning and inhuman treatment at the hands of their shitty AIs. It's classic enshittification.
Because their price tags are confusing? I'm having some difficulty understanding how price tags can so confusing that it makes them a legitimate target of theft.
They deliberately design their price tags to be confusing. Why would they do that? Because they want to trick people. It's a form of legal fraud. They want you to think you're getting a better deal than you are; or to prevent you from recognizing the actual price. They figure out how to intrinsically promise a certain deal without ever explicitly claiming that deal. For example, maybe the label makes it seem like the cost of an item is $5, but it's actually $7. Imagine you don't have enough money to pay the $7 actual cost, but you do have enough for the $5 portrayed cost. You could go back and select a different item. You could just abandon the item at the checkout counter, but now you feel like an asshole and you have to go shop somewhere else. But the store, through its design, deliberately makes returning items difficult.
And again, this is not accidental. Stores are deliberately designed to make back tracking difficult. The whole shopping and checkout process is built to make returning items or swapping them out stressful and difficult. After you've walked through all the aisles, waited ten minutes in line, have half your cart unloaded, have a quarter of it already bagged, and have a line of people behind you, who wants to leave checkout and go back to the aisles? They literally use peer pressure to prevent you from returning items! You have to awkwardly shove your way past others if you want to return an item you can't afford. They know that if they can keep you tricked up until the point where you're mid-checkout, you'll probably just grit your teeth and pay the bait-and-switch price anyway.
Now, if I think a product should cost $5, but it turns out to actually cost $7, I'm not going to steal it. But it's not hard to see how people could be so angered by it that they may simply steal. A possible attitude is, "fine. You want to cheat me with your psychological games? I'm going to steal enough of this order that I'm getting the price that you deliberately tricked me into thinking I was getting. That item I you made me think was $5, but was actually $7? I'm going to just not ring up this $2 item."
Is it legal? No. But this is one of those areas where the fuzzy boundaries of legality and morality blur. Kroger using psychological manipulation on their customers is highly immoral, but it is technically legal. Customers using theft to produce the deal they were promised isn't legal, but I'm not going to say it's immoral. Something isn't immoral simply because it's illegal. And many legal things are horribly immoral. The law is, at best, a rough approximation of morality. And while, legally, doing this is stealing, morally, I see it as little different from simply demanding the price you were promised.
I get what you’re saying, but can you elaborate on how the process tags are designed to confuse? I shop nearly exclusively at a Texas based store (H-E-B) which tends to cost slightly more, but...
I get what you’re saying, but can you elaborate on how the process tags are designed to confuse? I shop nearly exclusively at a Texas based store (H-E-B) which tends to cost slightly more, but there’s no confusion and the store is always adequately staffed
The rare times I shop at Kroger, there are sometimes two prices on labels I have noticed (like normal versus buying with a rewards card versus buying X quantity), but I’ve never had issues discerning what the actual prices are. I can’t even fathom the idea of putting something in my cart without being confident in the cost
On the very rare occasions where maybe I grabbed an item that was misplaced (and therefore more expensive) I simply tell the cashier that I don’t want to ring that up, and they put it behind the register for an employee to return later. I don’t feel like an asshole in the slightest lmao it’s not my fault it happened, so I have the right to say “no thanks”
Here’s the different varieties of price tags I’ve seen off the top of my head: Standard price Standard price + card price Standard price + card price + digital coupon price (with a QR code you...
Here’s the different varieties of price tags I’ve seen off the top of my head:
Standard price
Standard price + card price
Standard price + card price + digital coupon price (with a QR code you have to scan to “clip” the coupon which may or may not actually exist - I frequently have to ask the self checkout attendant to correct prices because of this. Also the store may not have a good LTE or wifi connection so their app might not work at all. Also even though every Kroger brand’s app is the exact same app aside from the logo, you must use the app that matches the brand of store you are at)
Standard price + card price displayed as “2 for $5” (purchase of 2 items is not actually necessary to get the $2.50/ea price).
Standard price + card price displayed as “buy 2 and save with $5 price” (purchase of 2 items is necessary to get the $2.50/ea price)
Standard price + BOGO card price
Your typical by-weight pricing for meats etc.
I only realized the difference between the “2 for $5” and the “buy 2 and save” about a week ago after deliberately experimenting with an item that had that tag- the lower price was nearly 50% lower than the “standard price” so it’s obviously meant to encourage people to buy more than they actually need.
At self checkout, only the standard price displays on the machine until you press “pay,” so you can’t actually tell what the running total is. Non-card prices are ludicrously high, grabbing several random receipts out of my reusable bag shows average 25% “savings” with my card. So I guess I could just lop 25% off of the running sum as I’m scanning things.
Thanks for the write-up. Yeah, the whole process is clearly intentionally designed to confuse and obfuscate. You can't tell the real price for many things until you've already scanned your entire...
Thanks for the write-up. Yeah, the whole process is clearly intentionally designed to confuse and obfuscate. You can't tell the real price for many things until you've already scanned your entire order. At which point, there's a line of people in line behind you waiting their turn. And you've already put in all that time to wait in line and do some unpaid cashier work for Kroger. If you want to back out then, after you see the real prices, you have to overcome that huge sunk cost fallacy. The whole thing is set up to manipulate you.
Thanks, wow yeah that’s actually ridiculous now that you mention it. I had noticed early on you didn’t have to buy multiple to get discounts, but when you list it all out yeah it’s totally to...
Thanks, wow yeah that’s actually ridiculous now that you mention it. I had noticed early on you didn’t have to buy multiple to get discounts, but when you list it all out yeah it’s totally to manipulate
So I went to Kroger today and took pictures of a few price tags, was surprisingly easy to find a wide variety, including something that I bought that had the wrong price!...
So I went to Kroger today and took pictures of a few price tags, was surprisingly easy to find a wide variety, including something that I bought that had the wrong price!
I asked the self checkout attendant (because customer service was closed) about the price of the cashews after going back to snap a picture of it (because I distinctly remembered there being some discount), and she zoomed in to show me the (unmarked) expiration date on the price tag... from 2 months ago. I asked why it was still up and she said "no one wants to work at this location."
To be fair, it's not a particularly great location. Rent in the area is ludicrous, so anyone who wants to work there is going to need to live pretty far away because Kroger doesn't pay much more than the minimum wage out here (maybe 10% more if you get a nice position). But corporate needs to just suck it up and invest more in stores like this because it's a problem of their own doing–they didn't have to monopolize grocery stores.
It's only going to get worse if they're allowed to buy Albertsons.
FWIW these things exist, and they have for decades. It's called a self-serve farm stand, you'll often find them on the sides of the road in rural areas in the spring/summer/fall. Despite never...
I'll just put a big basket out front. Grab what you want, add the totals in your head, throw cash in the basket on the way out.
FWIW these things exist, and they have for decades. It's called a self-serve farm stand, you'll often find them on the sides of the road in rural areas in the spring/summer/fall.
Despite never having anything more than the product and a tin can to throw cash in, they still keep going for years on end. All on the honor system.
One near my sister sells $4/dozen fresh eggs, with a $1/dozen discount if you bring the cartons back when you buy more. They take Venmo to boot.
Wealthy people are disproportionately likely to shoplift, so I doubt it's an issue of unmet needs most of the time. The stick might be necessary to decrease the behavior.
Wealthy people are disproportionately likely to shoplift, so I doubt it's an issue of unmet needs most of the time. The stick might be necessary to decrease the behavior.
I felt like this single sentence invalidated most of the author's complaints. This article frames it like Kroger is trying to implement all or many of these tactics in all their stores to combat...
My store is used as a test for new security ‘features’.
I felt like this single sentence invalidated most of the author's complaints. This article frames it like Kroger is trying to implement all or many of these tactics in all their stores to combat shrink. Instead this author has the unfortunate honor of being a guinea pig.
That doesn't invalidate the author's commentary about why the security procedures are a bad idea, but it's a bit hyperbolic.
I will note that most of these features are present at my local QFC: The first person you see is a security guard in some kind of tactical vest at a podium with store cameras The only...
I will note that most of these features are present at my local QFC:
The first person you see is a security guard in some kind of tactical vest at a podium with store cameras
The only announcements I ever hear over the PA are "hourly conditioning" or "security needed at sector N"
High-value aisles (beer, health, baby) have camera monitors showing both facial recognition (it draws a box around and faces it recognizes) and a PiP of the guard stand (which is somewhat entertaining when the guard is not at the stand).
Fortunately no aisles have locked cases, instead they have these plastic bits you have to (loudly) move around to get what you want
....but there are some high-value items locked in cases at the front (like baby formula) that you need to request at checkout
all the hard liquor is kept behind the customer service desk too (which may not be open because they run the store on a skeleton crew)
We have the locking shopping carts. It's an urban store so I haven't had any lock up on me purely because I never have to take them outside of the store. I have had these lock up at the doors of other suburban stores though.
self-checkouts all have a camera monitor attached to them, but I don't think they can freeze your checkout session like the author describes
which I would have less of a problem with if the store had more than 0-2 regular checkouts open at any given time
we also have these silly traffic gates that prevent you from leaving the store except through a checkout lane
these are also present at the front door to regulate traffic but one of the doors was broken for weeks so they had to dismantle them to allow ingress/egress through a single door
So really the only feature they haven't rolled out is the AI video detection (which I do think is the most concerning thing mentioned in the article).
Unlike these uber surveillance models, I much prefer something like Costco. Buy a membership so not just anyone can use the store, and then check receipts on the way out to limit shoplifting and...
Unlike these uber surveillance models, I much prefer something like Costco. Buy a membership so not just anyone can use the store, and then check receipts on the way out to limit shoplifting and theft. Its a little bit intrusive but I would guess that Costco's loss for 'shrinkage' is less than most big box stores.
+1 on this, I really appreciated how Sam's Club does it as well, where they scan your receipt then scan N random items from your cart (the device tells them how many). The self checkout (or even...
+1 on this, I really appreciated how Sam's Club does it as well, where they scan your receipt then scan N random items from your cart (the device tells them how many). The self checkout (or even scan-as-you-go mobile app) is very permissive and doesn't treat you like a criminal for daring to shop at the store.
This really feels like a vote with your wallet moment. I'm not familiar with Kroger, so if it is a low cost option, then of course people on tight budgets can't afford to change. But if it isn't a...
This really feels like a vote with your wallet moment. I'm not familiar with Kroger, so if it is a low cost option, then of course people on tight budgets can't afford to change. But if it isn't a cost issue, then I'd look to shop elsewhere if I had to deal with that kind of stuff.
Kroger likes trying to corner markets. For example, the city I'm in has 5 Kroger. Used to have a couple of Marsh stores, but Kroger bought them up, and one local store... which Kroger also bought...
Kroger likes trying to corner markets. For example, the city I'm in has 5 Kroger. Used to have a couple of Marsh stores, but Kroger bought them up, and one local store... which Kroger also bought the property for and has since left it vacant. Other than that, there's just some Whole Foods types, a tiny local organic place, and then discount type stores (WalMart and Aldis). Kroger is essentially the entire middle part of the market where you're not wanting fancy organic food but want better quality than the others offer.
That said, the number of Kroger in town does make for a bit of an interesting comparison - I've at various times had reason to stop in to all of them, and between different jobs/homes/commutes I've gone to three regularly (and a 4th would have been the most convenient, but...). One is the Fancy Kroger nestled near the upper middle class neighborhoods. It's like an average Kroger but with a bigger wine, organic food, and fancy cheese section, and more up to date furnishings. There are three of what I would describe as "normal middle class Kroger" on the other cardinal points of town - they're of varying age but generally have the same stuff products/amenities/etc. Then, there is downtown Kroger, sometimes referred to by townies as "KroGhetto". Less updated building, less fancier types of foods. It's across the street from one of the largest local homeless camps and is known for people getting stabbed in the parking lot a couple of times.
These stores have VASTLY different surveillance/security/loss prevention profiles. The only time I've ever seen open security at Fancy Kroger is just before closing on Saturday night, and he looked bored and was mostly chatting with people in the entrance. Only a few things in the health care area were locked up and required an employee to access. The three middle Kroger have surveillance trailers with security cameras in the lot; late evenings they'd often have a cop car parked in the lot with an officer waiting. Similar in store protection. I've never seen them actually check a receipt at any of these, and even when people have set off the beeper on the door out, they usually just get waved through and it gets silenced.
KroGhetto was definitely different. There would always be at least one uniformed and armed police officer walking the aisles, and 1-2 cars in the lot, in addition to the camera trailer. Outside dotted with security cameras and playing annoying music. Many products beyond basic staples locked up - most medications, health/hair/body care products, all the alcohol.
Given how highly I rank "I'd rather not be stabbed" in life priorities, I don't go to downtown Kroger if I can help it. I get the impression the times I've been that most of the shoppers are people who walk/bike/bus from nearby lower budget neighborhoods and hence have relatively less choice, since the only other nearby grocery is one of the expensive whole foods types.
Yeah Kroger is trying to corner the market where I am. As is we have one alternative and right now they are trying to buy out/merge with them and arguing that this is some how for us customers and...
Yeah Kroger is trying to corner the market where I am. As is we have one alternative and right now they are trying to buy out/merge with them and arguing that this is some how for us customers and it will offer cheaper and more options and they have to do this to keep up with the competition (which tehre will be none once they merge.. they're arguing amazon and walmart are their competition. Which is total bullshit, no one is replacing shopping at Kroger with either Whole Foods, online, or Walmart <- the only questionable one but I'd say really people doing their grocery shopping there weren't really shopping at Kroger anyways).
Yeah, I used to like Kroger but I'm kinda pissed at them for this. It doesn't help that near me Safeway is the obviously better store (here it is betweem Q.F.C., owned by Kroger, and Safeway).
Great summary, thank you! So similar to Walmart in the sense that there is a lot of market capture, and place bound shoppers without a lot of options. I've noticed the different you describe...
Great summary, thank you! So similar to Walmart in the sense that there is a lot of market capture, and place bound shoppers without a lot of options. I've noticed the different you describe between different locations in other stores like Safeway as well, ranging from nice and low-key, to locked down and sketchy.
Your policy and my "let's not get shanked" motto seem to drive us to similar conclusions, lol.
Ours was "The People's Kroger." The brand does manage to span the breadth of the "middle" of the grocery market. We have quite a few other chain and international options, but even the 3 Krogers...
KroGhetto
Ours was "The People's Kroger."
The brand does manage to span the breadth of the "middle" of the grocery market. We have quite a few other chain and international options, but even the 3 Krogers we have are wildly different
I’m so glad that other people are talking about this. I hear “if you have nothing to be afraid of, why are you complaining?” often when I complain about my privacy rights regarding the internet,...
I’m so glad that other people are talking about this. I hear “if you have nothing to be afraid of, why are you complaining?” often when I complain about my privacy rights regarding the internet, so I haven’t felt like I could really express my discomfort that has cropped up since Kroger made these changes.
I am such an anxious person, grocery shopping was already uncomfortable for me before all of these additional measures were added. I must have some sort of look because employees badger to help me frequently. Fellow customers often think that I am an employee as well….to the point that I almost always get asked customer service questions when I shop even though I am not wearing a uniform, or I take some brunt of whatever anger fueled rant they feel about the store. No clue if it’s my body language, if it’s because I look young, or it’s my style of clothing but the amount of attention I get makes this chore so exhausting as is.
Now that these security features have been added, the discomfort I experience has multiplied to the point where I avoid grocery shopping as much as possible- to my own detriment.
Self-checkout takes forever, now that it has to replay some cringy video of me struggling to scan an oddly placed barcode for the overworked employee monitoring a ton of other stations. Leaving the store is now an ordeal because the security officer profiled me and does actually want to thoroughly make sure every item on my cart is actually on the receipt. I’m annoyed that if I forgot to grab an item I have to be corralled around a pre-designed path that forces me to waste a bunch of time going though every single isle again. Not to mention how expensive food is now.
I’m tired, man. Why do I have to spend so much money just to feel like I’m so inherently bad while I’m just trying to do normal human shit?
What a coincidence. Just last night, I had my first encounter with these new anti-theft measures at my neighborhood Fred Meyer, the Kroger subsidiary where I'm from. The self checkout refused to complete my transaction until signed off by the overworked attendant, because their cameras decided that my water bottle and prescription meds in the cart were unscanned items. Not that it gave me a chance to even know what the issue was until the attendant came over. So I spent several frustrating minutes punished for my honesty, while I fail to understand how this obtuse system prevents any shoplifting other than an honest customer forgetting something in their cart, because anyone who wants to not pay for their goods can easily walk past the checkouts.
They could prevent this problem entirely by just keeping their regular checkout lines staffed instead of pushing people towards self checkout.
In my opinion, the only really good use for self checkout is when you're buying few enough items that you don't need a cart to begin with, similar to the "10 items or less" checkout lanes that used to be common.
Alternately, we could go to a more modern version of the traditional general store. In the traditional general/dry goods store, everything was behind the counter. The process of walking around with a cart and selecting items from shelves was something that came about with the invention of supermarkets in the mid 20th century. In the traditional general store, you could get your items one of two ways. You could walk in, tell them what you want, and wait for them to grab it. Or, you could send them an order request and drop by at a certain time to pick it up, similar to modern curbside pickup.
If the stores want to cut down on labor that much, they should abandon the cart and aisles approach all together. Invest in the necessary infrastructure and automation to allow orders to be placed and gathered automatically. Make the whole store automated and pickup only. The only thing this wouldn't work for is fresh produce, which people really want to be able to feel and inspect. To that end, you could have a traditional produce section, but everything else is automated and gathered by drones/conveyors, etc. With the exception of the veggies, customers don't even get to touch merchandise they haven't paid for. Suddenly, theft is a non-issue. And most fruits and veggies aren't really worth the hassle of trying to steal; they're not that valuable to start with, and they have no resale value. You're not going to steal an apple and then flip it on craigslist.
The problem Kroger is having is that they're stuck in the lowest point of miserly cheapness. They don't want to invest in enough labor to properly staff all their stores. They're operating all their stores lean, with not enough people around to keep an eye on things and prevent theft. They could also stop theft by investing in enough automation that everything except the produce section is entirely automated. But again, they don't want to invest enough to do that.
So they're stuck in this awkward middle stage. They have too few people to properly staff their stores, but they don't have the automation and store design needed to operate on a skeleton crew. So predictably, theft is rampant (especially when tied to usurious price increases). And now they're turning to AI as a desperate hail Mary to save them from their own idiocy. They hope that AI can be used to carefully monitor all the customers they're forcing to perform the work of the cashiers they fired. But of course, that's not really possible. There are just too many variables; too many shapes of human bodies; too many types of goods; too many places people might legitimately store goods before and after checkout. And that's before we get into things like racial bias in visual recognition systems.
Ultimately, this may cause the collapse of Kroger. The executives can't properly staff their stores again, as they've conditioned their shareholders to expect a certain profit level. The CEO can't return things to healthy payroll levels without slashing profits and losing their job. They in turn could invest in truly automated stores. But again, the shareholders are addicted to unsustainably high profits. So they're now attempting this band-aid hack of a solution, trying to use AI.
It may end up dooming Kroger. Maybe in some small towns Kroger is the only option. But in the cities where most of the population lives, people do have options on where to shop. And at some point, dealing with all the hassle of shopping at Kroger will just encourage people to shop elsewhere. I can get overpriced groceries some place that doesn't treat me like a criminal. And this may really harm Kroger in the long run. If they start losing customers, well, again, they've already conditioned their shareholders to expect unsustainably high profits. With declining revenue, they'll find it even more difficult to increase staffing or invest in useful automation. So they'll have to keep trying to squeeze their customers even harder. They'll have to treat them more and more like criminals. They'll have to try to force even more of the store's labor upon them.
How long do you think it will be until they start informing customers that it's their responsibility to restock or reface shelves? How long do you think until using a cart requires a $10 deposit? Hell, they might even try to offload the work of fixing the shitty self-checkout machines. Maybe instead of calling an associate over when there's a problem, you'll have the option of dragging three other customers over, having them scan their drivers licenses, and you all can vouch for the honesty of your purchase? I wouldn't put it past them if they tried to convince us it was our responsibility to mop the floors.
Where I live, we have Kroger (under a local brand name), Associated Foods (under another local brand name), and an actual locally owned and operated chain.
The Kroger and Associated Foods stores are always running on skeleton staff, and make you jump through a lot of hoops to get the real prices on items like clipping digital coupons for soda. They're also just kinda dingy.
The local chain however, always has cashiers at the checkout, the stores are nice and clean, the staff is friendly, and the produce selection is much better. They're even better about stocking limited time junk food releases (think seasonal Mountain Dew and Doritos flavors), which are a guilty pleasure of mine. All without charging noticeably more than the national chains.
This proves to me that all the cost cutting and other nasty shit these grocery chains are pulling are not necessary to run a sustainable business. It is all fueled entirely by greed.
It's not even a good business decision. Trader Joe's makes more money per square foot of floor space than traditional chain grocery stores and has fully staffed checkout lines in their stores. The bad experience in Kroger and Albertson's stores are because they have monopolies over the grocery market in many places and know people there don't have other options.
If anything, the big national chains should be able to offer better products, better service, and at better prices than local stores. That's the entire principle of economies of scale. If you double the number of employees your company has, you don't need an HR department twice as large. You don't need two CEOs, or one paid twice as much. A distribution warehouse that can house 100,000 widgets does not cost twice what one that houses 50,000 widgets does. They can get better deals by buying from suppliers in larger quantities, etc.
If anything, with as big as they are, every Kroger should be a veritable shopping Shangri-La. But I notice the same, the big national stores are always dirtier and charge more than the smaller local stores. They do benefit from those economies of scale, but they just funnel all those gains to executives and shareholders.
We could also bring back the local co-ops. Where everyone has a stake in the community grocery store, so everyone takes care of it. And those who can't afford to shop, can get what they need anyway without being ashamed or intimidated into being unable to get food.
Co-ops are not a silver bullet. My closest grocery store is a co-op. I can walk there easily in under 20 minutes without crossing any major roads. Despite that I still typically get in the car and go to one of the chain stores, for two reasons:
They're much cheaper. I spend 20-30% more at the co-op, and there doesn't seem to be any single driver. All items are just slightly more costly. That's despite each co-op member being required to make a $100 deposit into the development fund. They just don't have the scale to compete on price.
The variety is much better. I'm guessing it's for similar economy-of-scale reasons, but the co-op just doesn't have certain things and other items they sell out of quickly. For instance, I can almost never find cilantro at the co-op unless I make a point of going early on a weekday. Other things are less important but still enough to make me prefer the large chains – like a specific brand of seltzer that I can only find at Safeway or Giant.
It's really a bummer, because I much prefer to support the local business. Oftentimes I bite the bullet and shop there anyway, just accepting that I likely won't find everything I want. But that's hard to stomach when it also comes at a premium.
That's basically true for taking any stand for progress. It's less convienient than the status quo.
Walking is slower than driving, but reduces carbon footprint.
Unionized grocery stores cost more than others, but the employeea earn significantly more.
Sustainable meat costs substantially more and variety is lower. But its lower carbon footprint and more humane than industrial meat prouction and global imports.
I understand that, but when my menu for the week includes a Mexican dish and the co-op is out of cilantro, avocados, and jalapeños, it stops being a mere inconvenience and just means I have to go to the other store anyway. So not only did I take the extra time to walk there and back, and pay the 25% premium, I also have to get in the car and drive somewhere afterwards. After that happens enough times it makes me less likely to go to the co-op at all, unless I know for a fact they're going to have everything I need.
What that means is that you plan your menu around availability of foods rather than expecting whatever you want to always be available. Which is kind of how things worked before global trade enabled year-round access to fresh produce, and why many recipies before 1950something relied heavily on pickled or dried foods and seasonal produce.
No reason you couldn't use pickled jalepenos, dried cilantro, and bottled lime juice. These were the tactics before global shipping of fresh foods.
Not saying you're wrong, but if the paramount goal is 'supporting local over megacorp,' thats the kind of mental process change that is needed.
Sure, but the topic here is co-ops as an alternative to chain grocery stores. I'm probably more willing to accept additional friction to my shopping experience than most, and as I said in my first comment I do still shop there with the understanding that it's going to be a lower quality and more expensive experience. But until the co-op can provide a similar level of service to the major chains then it's not going to be the main option for most. It's just another form of the personal responsibility argument vis-à-vis climate change or transit – unless the most sustainable option is either the most convenient or only option, most people are not going to choose it.
The ultimate answer is to tax the bejesus out of food imports and raise minimum wages significantly. These are two of the biggest advantages the big providers have. And small providers will never be able to outcompete the Walmarts (or Krogers) of the world on their own.
You've either got to subsidize the small guy or penalize the big guy. Ideally both when we're in these massive megacorp situations where one company owns half the stores in the nation.
Are you kidding me? When I was broke, and self-checkout was new and poorly protected, #1 tactic was to lift half the weight of each produce item. It was like a $20 off coupon every single week.
And the risk was virtually 0 compared to stealing high-value items.
And yet, they're not locking fruits and veggies behind cages. Yes, if you are subsisting off of rice and beans, veggies will be the most expensive part of your order. But for most people, the more expensive items will be meat, processed foods, or general goods like laundry detergent. Yes, in the past, it was easier to steal these by fudging the weights or ringing up organic produce as regular produce. But one, this has gotten harder with better equipment and employee training. And two, again, produce doesn't have a lot of resale value. Stores aren't really that concerned about a broke kid ringing up a pound of onions as a half pound. They're more concerned about large scale theft, where people buy items to later sell online. And veggies really don't have any resale value.
Most people shoplifting from grocery stores aren't looking to resell.
You'll get bigger bang for your buck walking out of walmart/target/etc with electronics then any product in a grocery store.
I like your general store idea. Kind of the opposite of those Amazon stores. I finally went to one for the first time a month or so ago and found it pretty creepy to be so hyper aware of all the cameras on me.
As an introvert, please keep self checkout. It should be optional, and there is a large portion of the population that shouldn’t use it (if you need the attendant to help you with every item, just use a normal lane), but I want the option. There are stores that I avoid because they don’t have self checkout.
Perhaps it's a TSA-esque security theater to scare people into behaving themselves.
Last time I went to a Kroger I had to deal with that AI. The machine kept accusing me of stealing for trying to use my own bag. There's bag mandates here that charge you for buying paper sacks at the store, bringing your own is pretty standard.
The other store across the street seems to be doing fine without these so-called loss prevention methods. They're targeted towards lower income folk, but their quality to cost ratio is whack -- their food sucks. They've sold actively rotting produce, their store brand is just awful, and they use scummy pricing tactics. This opinion seems to be singular between my partner and I amongst all the folks I know around here though.
I miss Aldi.
I’ll be honest, I’ve never experienced any of what’s discussed in the article at any of the Krogers I’ve been to (Georgia and South Carolina). The closest was one time when I skipped bagging a few items and declined the option for a receipt at self-checkout, but even that was a case of “nobody realized you could completely decline a receipt.” But all our toiletries are in the same part of the store, I don’t think I’ve ever seen security, etc. I wonder where the author lives?
I think it's pretty clear the author lives in a high crime area. Stores don't do this kind of stuff for fun -- it's expensive, and as the author points out (repeatedly, excessively) , irritating to customers. I do get the feeling that the author's ire is misplaced. The problem here is shoplifters, not the store -- and if Kroger can't get the shoplifting under control, they may well close their doors, leaving the author without a grocery store.
I'm not entirely sure about that. There was a bunch of high-profile stories that got really popular in the past few years about organized retail theft, where grocery and drug stores would have gangs of people walk in and march out with huge hauls without anyone being able to stop them. It turned out to be a near-lie; It's not like that kind of thing never happened at all, but it was extremely rare and not a commonplace thing like the retailers were making it sound.
I don't know about gangs of people, but I see grocery store theft nearly every day, and that's how it works -- people get their hands on a product and then they just stroll out with it, typically with an LPO walking them out the door. As far as I can tell, the LPO's job ends once the thief has the product -- their primary objective is to identify and prevent thieves from entering the store to begin with. I assume it's liability reasons preventing them from actively taking the product back when it might result in a real or feigned injury and accompanying lawsuit.
I used to work as a security guard. They have basically 0 legal authority to do anything. Security guards are, in the eyes of the law, not any different than a normal person. They can detain someone with a citizen’s arrest, but they have the same requirements as any normal citizen’s arrest. If I remember correctly, you must witness a person committing a felony. So when most shopkeeping is petty theft, they can’t even legally detain someone. Our goal is to “Observe and Report”. I worked at a location that secured department of defense secrets. If you walked in the door PayDay style with a drill and started drilling the safe, I wouldn’t (and legally couldn’t) do anything to stop you. I sure as hell would call the police (and possibly the FBI), but I wouldn’t even stand in your way.
Are you sure you're actually witnessing theft and not just something that looks to you like theft?
Yeah, I know the staff at my local grocery store, I've been here for decades. We chat about stuff, including this. Also, it's suuuuuuuuper obvious.
The issue I can see with confiscating goods they think are being stolen is that they will at some point make the mistake of taking an item someone brought from home or had actually paid for. Imagine the fallout that would result from the grocery store stealing items you just paid them for.
Presumably they could verify on the security footage. At least where I shop, it's extensive. One time I lost my sunglasses, and the security guy followed my progress backwards through the footage until he found where I dropped them -- I was never out of perfect view of a camera the entire time.
I think Kroger wants to have their cake and eat it too. My local QFC (one of their million store brands) has about a dozen cashier checkout lines but typically has between 0 and 2 open.
I’m relatively cost-conscious while shopping, and legitimately could not tell you how much my cart will cost when I get to checkout because the design of their price tags is so (intentionally!!) hard to decipher. At another store down the street I’m able to approximate my total cost to within $5. Fortunately I can afford unpredictable grocery bills but a lot of people cannot- I am not at all surprised people are willing to steal from Kroger.
Ultimately shoplifting is not a Kroger problem but is a community problem. We should be looking at what is causing people to want or need to shoplift and address the root causes, rather than increasing surveillance.
How so?
Because their price tags are confusing? I'm having some difficulty understanding how price tags can so confusing that it makes them a legitimate target of theft.
I think Kroger's pretty justified in trying to stop theft rather than trying to solve the general societal problem of people being willing to steal from them.
Not the one you replied to, but they're absolutely trying to have their cake and eat it to. They have deliberately understaffed their stores. They're a multi-billion dollar company. At that scale, nothing is left to chance. Companies that big don't just hire architects to design their stores; they hire psychologists. They fine tune everything from the store layout to the paint color to the aisle width to subtly influence customers to spend more money. This is why the cheap low-margin staples, like milk, are always at the far back of the store. The stores deliberately force you to walk past all the high-margin processed foods to get to the real foods.
Anyway, I cite store design as an example of how much thought they put into their operations. And the blindingly obvious downside of a store lowering their payroll is that it results in more theft. Imagine if I tried to run a grocery store on the honor system. No checkout at all, no scanning of items. I'll just put a big basket out front. Grab what you want, add the totals in your head, throw cash in the basket on the way out.
What do you think would happen if I did that? Would anyone be surprised if the store didn't last a week due to rampant theft? Of course not. And no one would have any sympathy for me.
The cost of running your stores on a skeleton crew is that theft will rise. They knew that before they contracted their staffing. And now they're still complaining about soaring theft levels. It was as inevitable as the Sun rising in the morning. And now they're forcing law-abiding customers to endure demeaning and inhuman treatment at the hands of their shitty AIs. It's classic enshittification.
They deliberately design their price tags to be confusing. Why would they do that? Because they want to trick people. It's a form of legal fraud. They want you to think you're getting a better deal than you are; or to prevent you from recognizing the actual price. They figure out how to intrinsically promise a certain deal without ever explicitly claiming that deal. For example, maybe the label makes it seem like the cost of an item is $5, but it's actually $7. Imagine you don't have enough money to pay the $7 actual cost, but you do have enough for the $5 portrayed cost. You could go back and select a different item. You could just abandon the item at the checkout counter, but now you feel like an asshole and you have to go shop somewhere else. But the store, through its design, deliberately makes returning items difficult.
And again, this is not accidental. Stores are deliberately designed to make back tracking difficult. The whole shopping and checkout process is built to make returning items or swapping them out stressful and difficult. After you've walked through all the aisles, waited ten minutes in line, have half your cart unloaded, have a quarter of it already bagged, and have a line of people behind you, who wants to leave checkout and go back to the aisles? They literally use peer pressure to prevent you from returning items! You have to awkwardly shove your way past others if you want to return an item you can't afford. They know that if they can keep you tricked up until the point where you're mid-checkout, you'll probably just grit your teeth and pay the bait-and-switch price anyway.
Now, if I think a product should cost $5, but it turns out to actually cost $7, I'm not going to steal it. But it's not hard to see how people could be so angered by it that they may simply steal. A possible attitude is, "fine. You want to cheat me with your psychological games? I'm going to steal enough of this order that I'm getting the price that you deliberately tricked me into thinking I was getting. That item I you made me think was $5, but was actually $7? I'm going to just not ring up this $2 item."
Is it legal? No. But this is one of those areas where the fuzzy boundaries of legality and morality blur. Kroger using psychological manipulation on their customers is highly immoral, but it is technically legal. Customers using theft to produce the deal they were promised isn't legal, but I'm not going to say it's immoral. Something isn't immoral simply because it's illegal. And many legal things are horribly immoral. The law is, at best, a rough approximation of morality. And while, legally, doing this is stealing, morally, I see it as little different from simply demanding the price you were promised.
I get what you’re saying, but can you elaborate on how the process tags are designed to confuse? I shop nearly exclusively at a Texas based store (H-E-B) which tends to cost slightly more, but there’s no confusion and the store is always adequately staffed
The rare times I shop at Kroger, there are sometimes two prices on labels I have noticed (like normal versus buying with a rewards card versus buying X quantity), but I’ve never had issues discerning what the actual prices are. I can’t even fathom the idea of putting something in my cart without being confident in the cost
On the very rare occasions where maybe I grabbed an item that was misplaced (and therefore more expensive) I simply tell the cashier that I don’t want to ring that up, and they put it behind the register for an employee to return later. I don’t feel like an asshole in the slightest lmao it’s not my fault it happened, so I have the right to say “no thanks”
Here’s the different varieties of price tags I’ve seen off the top of my head:
I only realized the difference between the “2 for $5” and the “buy 2 and save” about a week ago after deliberately experimenting with an item that had that tag- the lower price was nearly 50% lower than the “standard price” so it’s obviously meant to encourage people to buy more than they actually need.
At self checkout, only the standard price displays on the machine until you press “pay,” so you can’t actually tell what the running total is. Non-card prices are ludicrously high, grabbing several random receipts out of my reusable bag shows average 25% “savings” with my card. So I guess I could just lop 25% off of the running sum as I’m scanning things.
Thanks for the write-up. Yeah, the whole process is clearly intentionally designed to confuse and obfuscate. You can't tell the real price for many things until you've already scanned your entire order. At which point, there's a line of people in line behind you waiting their turn. And you've already put in all that time to wait in line and do some unpaid cashier work for Kroger. If you want to back out then, after you see the real prices, you have to overcome that huge sunk cost fallacy. The whole thing is set up to manipulate you.
Thanks, wow yeah that’s actually ridiculous now that you mention it. I had noticed early on you didn’t have to buy multiple to get discounts, but when you list it all out yeah it’s totally to manipulate
So I went to Kroger today and took pictures of a few price tags, was surprisingly easy to find a wide variety, including something that I bought that had the wrong price!
https://imgur.com/a/3w3U5JI
I asked the self checkout attendant (because customer service was closed) about the price of the cashews after going back to snap a picture of it (because I distinctly remembered there being some discount), and she zoomed in to show me the (unmarked) expiration date on the price tag... from 2 months ago. I asked why it was still up and she said "no one wants to work at this location."
To be fair, it's not a particularly great location. Rent in the area is ludicrous, so anyone who wants to work there is going to need to live pretty far away because Kroger doesn't pay much more than the minimum wage out here (maybe 10% more if you get a nice position). But corporate needs to just suck it up and invest more in stores like this because it's a problem of their own doing–they didn't have to monopolize grocery stores.
It's only going to get worse if they're allowed to buy Albertsons.
FWIW these things exist, and they have for decades. It's called a self-serve farm stand, you'll often find them on the sides of the road in rural areas in the spring/summer/fall.
Despite never having anything more than the product and a tin can to throw cash in, they still keep going for years on end. All on the honor system.
One near my sister sells $4/dozen fresh eggs, with a $1/dozen discount if you bring the cartons back when you buy more. They take Venmo to boot.
Wealthy people are disproportionately likely to shoplift, so I doubt it's an issue of unmet needs most of the time. The stick might be necessary to decrease the behavior.
I felt like this single sentence invalidated most of the author's complaints. This article frames it like Kroger is trying to implement all or many of these tactics in all their stores to combat shrink. Instead this author has the unfortunate honor of being a guinea pig.
That doesn't invalidate the author's commentary about why the security procedures are a bad idea, but it's a bit hyperbolic.
I will note that most of these features are present at my local QFC:
So really the only feature they haven't rolled out is the AI video detection (which I do think is the most concerning thing mentioned in the article).
Funny thing about the cart wheels locking- you can unlock them yourself ;)
Unlike these uber surveillance models, I much prefer something like Costco. Buy a membership so not just anyone can use the store, and then check receipts on the way out to limit shoplifting and theft. Its a little bit intrusive but I would guess that Costco's loss for 'shrinkage' is less than most big box stores.
+1 on this, I really appreciated how Sam's Club does it as well, where they scan your receipt then scan N random items from your cart (the device tells them how many). The self checkout (or even scan-as-you-go mobile app) is very permissive and doesn't treat you like a criminal for daring to shop at the store.
This really feels like a vote with your wallet moment. I'm not familiar with Kroger, so if it is a low cost option, then of course people on tight budgets can't afford to change. But if it isn't a cost issue, then I'd look to shop elsewhere if I had to deal with that kind of stuff.
Kroger likes trying to corner markets. For example, the city I'm in has 5 Kroger. Used to have a couple of Marsh stores, but Kroger bought them up, and one local store... which Kroger also bought the property for and has since left it vacant. Other than that, there's just some Whole Foods types, a tiny local organic place, and then discount type stores (WalMart and Aldis). Kroger is essentially the entire middle part of the market where you're not wanting fancy organic food but want better quality than the others offer.
That said, the number of Kroger in town does make for a bit of an interesting comparison - I've at various times had reason to stop in to all of them, and between different jobs/homes/commutes I've gone to three regularly (and a 4th would have been the most convenient, but...). One is the Fancy Kroger nestled near the upper middle class neighborhoods. It's like an average Kroger but with a bigger wine, organic food, and fancy cheese section, and more up to date furnishings. There are three of what I would describe as "normal middle class Kroger" on the other cardinal points of town - they're of varying age but generally have the same stuff products/amenities/etc. Then, there is downtown Kroger, sometimes referred to by townies as "KroGhetto". Less updated building, less fancier types of foods. It's across the street from one of the largest local homeless camps and is known for people getting stabbed in the parking lot a couple of times.
These stores have VASTLY different surveillance/security/loss prevention profiles. The only time I've ever seen open security at Fancy Kroger is just before closing on Saturday night, and he looked bored and was mostly chatting with people in the entrance. Only a few things in the health care area were locked up and required an employee to access. The three middle Kroger have surveillance trailers with security cameras in the lot; late evenings they'd often have a cop car parked in the lot with an officer waiting. Similar in store protection. I've never seen them actually check a receipt at any of these, and even when people have set off the beeper on the door out, they usually just get waved through and it gets silenced.
KroGhetto was definitely different. There would always be at least one uniformed and armed police officer walking the aisles, and 1-2 cars in the lot, in addition to the camera trailer. Outside dotted with security cameras and playing annoying music. Many products beyond basic staples locked up - most medications, health/hair/body care products, all the alcohol.
Given how highly I rank "I'd rather not be stabbed" in life priorities, I don't go to downtown Kroger if I can help it. I get the impression the times I've been that most of the shoppers are people who walk/bike/bus from nearby lower budget neighborhoods and hence have relatively less choice, since the only other nearby grocery is one of the expensive whole foods types.
Yeah Kroger is trying to corner the market where I am. As is we have one alternative and right now they are trying to buy out/merge with them and arguing that this is some how for us customers and it will offer cheaper and more options and they have to do this to keep up with the competition (which tehre will be none once they merge.. they're arguing amazon and walmart are their competition. Which is total bullshit, no one is replacing shopping at Kroger with either Whole Foods, online, or Walmart <- the only questionable one but I'd say really people doing their grocery shopping there weren't really shopping at Kroger anyways).
Yeah, I used to like Kroger but I'm kinda pissed at them for this. It doesn't help that near me Safeway is the obviously better store (here it is betweem Q.F.C., owned by Kroger, and Safeway).
Great summary, thank you! So similar to Walmart in the sense that there is a lot of market capture, and place bound shoppers without a lot of options. I've noticed the different you describe between different locations in other stores like Safeway as well, ranging from nice and low-key, to locked down and sketchy.
Your policy and my "let's not get shanked" motto seem to drive us to similar conclusions, lol.
Ours was "The People's Kroger."
The brand does manage to span the breadth of the "middle" of the grocery market. We have quite a few other chain and international options, but even the 3 Krogers we have are wildly different
I’m so glad that other people are talking about this. I hear “if you have nothing to be afraid of, why are you complaining?” often when I complain about my privacy rights regarding the internet, so I haven’t felt like I could really express my discomfort that has cropped up since Kroger made these changes.
I am such an anxious person, grocery shopping was already uncomfortable for me before all of these additional measures were added. I must have some sort of look because employees badger to help me frequently. Fellow customers often think that I am an employee as well….to the point that I almost always get asked customer service questions when I shop even though I am not wearing a uniform, or I take some brunt of whatever anger fueled rant they feel about the store. No clue if it’s my body language, if it’s because I look young, or it’s my style of clothing but the amount of attention I get makes this chore so exhausting as is.
Now that these security features have been added, the discomfort I experience has multiplied to the point where I avoid grocery shopping as much as possible- to my own detriment.
Self-checkout takes forever, now that it has to replay some cringy video of me struggling to scan an oddly placed barcode for the overworked employee monitoring a ton of other stations. Leaving the store is now an ordeal because the security officer profiled me and does actually want to thoroughly make sure every item on my cart is actually on the receipt. I’m annoyed that if I forgot to grab an item I have to be corralled around a pre-designed path that forces me to waste a bunch of time going though every single isle again. Not to mention how expensive food is now.
I’m tired, man. Why do I have to spend so much money just to feel like I’m so inherently bad while I’m just trying to do normal human shit?