Yeah, most of them are pretty barren. I used to see a small set of chargers reasonably close to the entrances of large shopping places like wal-marts and malls, but a lot of those seem to have...
Yeah, most of them are pretty barren. I used to see a small set of chargers reasonably close to the entrances of large shopping places like wal-marts and malls, but a lot of those seem to have been pulled out since then for some reason. It’s much more common to see a larger bank of them on the far side of a far-too-big parking lot instead, where there are absolutely no amenities anywhere nearby. Seriously, nobody even thought to put in a basic shade.
I’ve been thinking of starting a food cart business just because it seems like a perfect captive audience.
It's so weird that tech companies seem hellbent on reinventing everything just to say they're 'innovating'. Sure, sprinkle chargers around parking lots like confetti, that makes a lot of sense. At...
It's so weird that tech companies seem hellbent on reinventing everything just to say they're 'innovating'.
Sure, sprinkle chargers around parking lots like confetti, that makes a lot of sense. At least if you can hide/protect the loud high voltage DC transformers for fast charging, but level 1-2 chargers are better for a lot of reasons. Not least of them battery lifetime.
But service/gas stations aren't the way they are because Ford/GM decided they should be. They're the way they are because of many decades of businesses figuring out what worked / was wanted. Throwing out decades of consumer research because the powerplant of the vehicle doesn't run on rotten algae is silly.
Service/gas stations are the way they are because you can't make any money on retail gas because people seek out the least expensive option and have very little tolerance for higher prices....
Service/gas stations are the way they are because you can't make any money on retail gas because people seek out the least expensive option and have very little tolerance for higher prices. However, they are stuck pumping gas for a few minutes, frequently want a bathroom, and maybe a drink or some snacks. Conveniently, drinks and snacks are pretty good margin items.
That chargers aren't being built with the idea of cross-selling high-margin snacks should be alarming because it means either: They are making a ton of money somewhere; and/or, they are too dumb to look at what the competition is doing.
Gas station net profits are about 1% per gallon of fuel, so yeah they aren't making any money there. 30% of revenue, but 70% of profits are from sales inside the store where margins range from 15%...
Exemplary
Gas station net profits are about 1% per gallon of fuel, so yeah they aren't making any money there.
30% of revenue, but 70% of profits are from sales inside the store where margins range from 15% for tobacco to 39-44% for snacks/drinks and 50%+ for candy.
44% of gas stations customers go inside (footfall) the store, 33% of those actually buy something (sales).
The industry studies show that the longer someone is at the gas station, the more likely they are to go inside and therefore buy something, with 5 minutes being the major dividing line.
So this seems great for electric charging as people will be there for longer than 5 minutes...
The thing is people seem to forget that gas stations are smaller than other retail establishments, have fewer items, and thrive on customer turnover. The average fuel time for a gasoline vehicle is 2-3 minutes. That's 3 minutes until the pump is free and the next customer shows up. An EV sitting there for 30 minutes while might nearly guarantee a customer go inside the store and buy something, has still taken up the space of 10 other customers. Take the number above for footfall and sales and you find that one EV customer takes up the space of 1.452 gas customers, gotta make up for the 45.2% loss by having EV chargers replace pumps (the direction laypersons think the gas stations will/should go) somewhere.
Also need to factor in that everyone with an ICE car has to go to the gas station, while 80% of all EV charging is done at home. So you've gone from a market that serves 100% of car owners to one that serves 20% of them.
With gross profits on EV charging hovering around the 30% mark you aren't going to make the shortfall off electricity and the ROI on the installation of the chargers is low. 150kW chargers, on the low end, cost $50,000 each to install, $30 average price charged at a typical fast charger is $10 in gross profit, totaling 5,000 cars charged just to break even (assuming the charger never needs repair) per charger. Did I mention that the average charger sees two cars per day?Nearly 7 years to recoup the cost of one charger that works perfectly the entire time.
This is why chargers are installed around parking lots of retail stores. It has shown to increase the amount of time spent inside the store (dwell time) by half an hour. Someone inside a Walmart or Target that increases their time in store from 25 minutes to 55 minutes, greatly increases the store's profitability, this doesn't happen at a gas station as there's no reason to be inside one for more than 5 minutes, let alone 35.
Side note: This is one of those things I don't see people mention ever. Sure the cost to fill up an EV is lower, but they don't account for the cost of human boredom in our capitalistic hellscape where you save money on fuel costs, but just end up buying more and more junk every time you stop to charge.
As for someone who is very anticonsumption in general, I'm all for giving people more incentive to drop the mindset where they automatically buy junk.
Side note: This is one of those things I don't see people mention ever. Sure the cost to fill up an EV is lower, but they don't account for the cost of human boredom in our capitalistic hellscape where you save money on fuel costs, but just end up buying more and more junk every time you stop to charge.
As for someone who is very anticonsumption in general, I'm all for giving people more incentive to drop the mindset where they automatically buy junk.
Sometimes there aren't published sources; you build up knowledge of the economics of an industry by being inside it, and no one writes that stuff down. People also make things up on the internet,...
Sometimes there aren't published sources; you build up knowledge of the economics of an industry by being inside it, and no one writes that stuff down.
People also make things up on the internet, but not everything without sources is bullshit.
Electricity can be very cheap and there is a chance they may be getting discounted or subsidized rates on top of that. I looked up the last time I charged at a public fast charger and I was billed...
Electricity can be very cheap and there is a chance they may be getting discounted or subsidized rates on top of that. I looked up the last time I charged at a public fast charger and I was billed at 68 cents per kWh plus a 99 cent transaction fee. To put that into perspective the average residential price of electricity in this state is 31 cents and the average commercial price is just under 20 cents.
That's the other thing that's really annoying about fast charging stations. Sure electricity is relatively 'inexpensive' compared to gas, but you'd have to be a fool to think that it's going to...
That's the other thing that's really annoying about fast charging stations. Sure electricity is relatively 'inexpensive' compared to gas, but you'd have to be a fool to think that it's going to stay that way if EVs become as popular as ICE vehicles. The bottom line is profit and if ICE were to disappear, fast charging stations would become as expensive or more expensive than gas.
I'm not too sure about that. The thing is that we don't need to import electricity from other countries. And charging station compete with one very obvious factor: your house. Unless you're doing...
The bottom line is profit and if ICE were to disappear, fast charging stations would become as expensive or more expensive than gas.
I'm not too sure about that. The thing is that we don't need to import electricity from other countries. And charging station compete with one very obvious factor: your house. Unless you're doing some long distance traveling, you can plan around getting back home to recharge.
At that rate, it'd be better to drive prices down and encourage people to walk around and dine/snack at local business. Because let's face it: if the govt. doesn't do it (nor regulate it), you know some Wal-mart or other super corp will implement it for pennies, for obvious reason. I know Costco is going to get on that within the next decade for sure.
Indeed. I used to work on the technology side of Europe's largest EV charger network. Businesses like IKEA want to have chargers installed on-premise because it draws high-income (and thus...
Indeed.
I used to work on the technology side of Europe's largest EV charger network. Businesses like IKEA want to have chargers installed on-premise because it draws high-income (and thus high-value) foot traffic. They often subsidize the charging tariff.
Even if the chargers become as expensive as gas, you can still charge an EV with electricity you generate at home. Making your gasoline is more complex than using solar panels or a personal...
Even if the chargers become as expensive as gas, you can still charge an EV with electricity you generate at home. Making your gasoline is more complex than using solar panels or a personal windmill. Vehicles can become whole-house batteries, making homes more resilient to brownouts or blackouts.
Fair point. And that is a big advantage of an EV. I actually do have a small 'hobby set' of solar panels with an off grid battery setup and inverter - 1800w of panels - and I have on rare...
Fair point. And that is a big advantage of an EV. I actually do have a small 'hobby set' of solar panels with an off grid battery setup and inverter - 1800w of panels - and I have on rare occasions charged our tiny EV (24 kWh battery) with it, so I know it can be done. It takes more than a day if its really low, but then again Im literally driving on sunshine, for free, when it's full. Definitely won't be doing that with gasoline.
I mean, those things are pretty new, so whoever installed them there probably still needs to recoup the hardware investment. And a single level 3 charging stations starts at $30k, and if they come...
I mean, those things are pretty new, so whoever installed them there probably still needs to recoup the hardware investment.
And a single level 3 charging stations starts at $30k, and if they come with internal batteries (because the grid can't support 10 Level 3 chargers all going at the same time in this location), they cost more than $100k a piece. If they use one without batteries, but had to rip open the ground to put in new high voltage lines instead, the price is probably pretty similar.
If the average charge costs $30, they make $18 profit per car serviced. How long does it take until a single terminal has charged several thousand cars? How much interest are they paying on the loan in the meantime? How much in service contracts?
The average charge costs more than $5. My last charge was nearly $10 for only 12.5kWh. For a sense of scale my car’s battery has a capacity of 65kWh. I’d say that charging stations with battery...
The average charge costs more than $5. My last charge was nearly $10 for only 12.5kWh. For a sense of scale my car’s battery has a capacity of 65kWh.
I’d say that charging stations with battery backups are rare because I haven’t seen any but I would guess there wouldn’t be any obvious sign of them being there. That being said I haven’t noticed any of the charge stations having more big metal boxes than normal.
Good point, turns out all chargers I have for reference are heavily subsidized. Yes, at 68c/kWh average charge is probably closer to $30 then. I'll edit.
Good point, turns out all chargers I have for reference are heavily subsidized. Yes, at 68c/kWh average charge is probably closer to $30 then. I'll edit.
I mean it's not really a tech company thing. These aren't being run by "tech" companies outside of Tesla, which is a "tech" company anyway. Most of the US's chargers are because Volkswagon lied on...
I mean it's not really a tech company thing. These aren't being run by "tech" companies outside of Tesla, which is a "tech" company anyway. Most of the US's chargers are because Volkswagon lied on emissions reports and was penalized into paying billions of dollars of EV chargers by the government.
Yep, it's just cost reduction and cutting corners. It isn't helped by the fact that EVs need the space/EVSE for a much longer period of time than a gas pump, making the economic throughput per...
Yep, it's just cost reduction and cutting corners. It isn't helped by the fact that EVs need the space/EVSE for a much longer period of time than a gas pump, making the economic throughput per surface area much lower (which in turn makes it hard to justify buying up valuable property in dense high-traffic areas.
In Texas I saw charging stations in a parking lot as far as possible from the nearby mall entrance. I'm guessing the logic is that most people are shitty and will park their gas car in the...
In Texas I saw charging stations in a parking lot as far as possible from the nearby mall entrance. I'm guessing the logic is that most people are shitty and will park their gas car in the charging spot if it's a convenient location for walking to the door. So if you put the charging spots really far away the EV owners can still charge and won't complain to the mall staff as much. They hear less complaints and then consider the problem solved.
For now, while chargers are somewhat rare and BEVs are not the primary vehicle, this is absolutely why the charging spots are out on the edges of the parking lot. I was actually just reading an...
For now, while chargers are somewhat rare and BEVs are not the primary vehicle, this is absolutely why the charging spots are out on the edges of the parking lot.
I was actually just reading an article that said the same logic a few days ago. I wish where I read it could pop back into my head so I could link it here, but it is escaping me just now.
It's also infrastructure/cost of installation. Parking lot lights don't have the electrical connections to handle EV charging and if you go to a retail store/mall and look up you'll notice you...
It's also infrastructure/cost of installation.
Parking lot lights don't have the electrical connections to handle EV charging and if you go to a retail store/mall and look up you'll notice you don't see a single power line anywhere going to the store, it's all underground or enters the back of the building. So they need to install the charging infrastructure that can handle fast charging, wiring that can handle such is expensive, tearing up a parking lot to bury it to closer parking spots is more expensive than just putting it at the edge of the lot where you have to run 50 feet of wiring instead of a few thousand.
OMG, yes. I can't even count how many times I've been sitting in some barren parking lot and remarked that even a tiny, shitty little coffee kiosk would be welcome. What about coin-operated...
I’ve been thinking of starting a food cart business just because it seems like a perfect captive audience.
OMG, yes. I can't even count how many times I've been sitting in some barren parking lot and remarked that even a tiny, shitty little coffee kiosk would be welcome. What about coin-operated port-a-potties?
If absolutely nothing else, every charging stop should have a trash can.
Different cities may have different issues and risks. Here in the San Francisco bay area, public unmonitored bathrooms get trashed quickly and used for other than their intended purpose.
Different cities may have different issues and risks. Here in the San Francisco bay area, public unmonitored bathrooms get trashed quickly and used for other than their intended purpose.
Well, the "nothing around, not even a trash can or walkable bathroom" problem is one I've tended to run into in more rural areas or small cities -- not exactly a Bay Area sort of place.
Well, the "nothing around, not even a trash can or walkable bathroom" problem is one I've tended to run into in more rural areas or small cities -- not exactly a Bay Area sort of place.
The reality is it’s not as simple as just placing a trash can there. Who empties and maintains that trash can? Now you’re talking about hiring someone to do that.
The reality is it’s not as simple as just placing a trash can there. Who empties and maintains that trash can? Now you’re talking about hiring someone to do that.
This is also kind of the problem with free/discounted charging at malls, Costco, IKEA, etc.—there's going to be limited availability of EVSE spots relative to who might want to take advantage, and...
This is also kind of the problem with free/discounted charging at malls, Costco, IKEA, etc.—there's going to be limited availability of EVSE spots relative to who might want to take advantage, and people aren't going to come out mid-shopping to move their car when it's finished.
Maybe if they're all level 2 chargers those points can be less of an issue, but running a sizeable deployment of EVSE comes at a high cost (electricity isn't cheap everywhere) and realistically isn't winning those places many more customers than they already would've had.
Charge for occupying the space, offer a valet service to move it to avoid the charge or pledge to move it yourself to avoid paying for valet or the occupying space penalty. Get a discount for...
Charge for occupying the space, offer a valet service to move it to avoid the charge or pledge to move it yourself to avoid paying for valet or the occupying space penalty. Get a discount for buying something in the mall to ‘validate’ your charge like parking validation. The problem has options to solve it. We could bring back gas station attendants haha.
Many of them have the option to charge a parking fee that charges an hourly rate after the car has finished charging. That being said, the only charger I've seen that does it is a Level 2 charger...
Many of them have the option to charge a parking fee that charges an hourly rate after the car has finished charging.
That being said, the only charger I've seen that does it is a Level 2 charger (i.e. less likely to reach that point because it's slow), and even that can be circumvented because you can simply remotely end the session with the app.
I'm no expert, but based on other stuff I've read in this thread it seems like it costs tens of thousands of dollars to install these chargers. Might be a hard sell to shell out that much money...
I'm no expert, but based on other stuff I've read in this thread it seems like it costs tens of thousands of dollars to install these chargers. Might be a hard sell to shell out that much money for a mall that's already in dire straits (which I assume many are).
It’s a good idea. The other weekend I was driving a rental Tesla down from Guerneville to Oakland. I had to make a recharge stop at some point — I didn’t have enough charge to make the whole trip...
It’s a good idea. The other weekend I was driving a rental Tesla down from Guerneville to Oakland. I had to make a recharge stop at some point — I didn’t have enough charge to make the whole trip home. So I was looking up superchargers…
They were only along Route 101. I wanted to take an alternative route and see some off-the-beaten-path towns, but nothing.
A destination for people that you know will be there for at least half an hour, and it's a demographic that will have more money (you know they own a relatively new car, and many EVs are pretty...
A destination for people that you know will be there for at least half an hour, and it's a demographic that will have more money (you know they own a relatively new car, and many EVs are pretty expensive).
Beyond just basic bathroom facilities, you would think that a charging station (where you'll literally be captive for at least 20-30m) would be the perfect place for a mediocre cafe that could...
Beyond just basic bathroom facilities, you would think that a charging station (where you'll literally be captive for at least 20-30m) would be the perfect place for a mediocre cafe that could pretty much charge whatever it wants.
The issues surrounding the minimalism of charging stations was mentioned recently in a Technology Connections video (around 38:00). How it's weird that there aren't canopies, convenience stores,...
The issues surrounding the minimalism of charging stations was mentioned recently in a Technology Connections video (around 38:00). How it's weird that there aren't canopies, convenience stores, restrooms, or even those squeegees you see at gas stations to clean your windshield.
This is why I keep saying that charging at home makes sense but road tripping in an EV does not. Its a no brainer to own something you use during the day and take 4 seconds to plug in when you get...
This is why I keep saying that charging at home makes sense but road tripping in an EV does not. Its a no brainer to own something you use during the day and take 4 seconds to plug in when you get home and use it again the next day. Its the perfect use case for an EV.
They do NOT make sense for road tripping or charging away from home (especially in charging deserts like western Canada) and they won't proliferate til they do.
But there will be no mass uptake of a device that is LESS convenient than the thing its replacing and the fact is, as much as my fellow EV enthusiasts like to talk about their cars, planning a road trip is always a dicey, complicated affair compared to using an ICE car. No one gets in an ICE and wonders 'where will I fill up? Can I pee there? And if the pumps aren't working at that station, where is the next closest one and can I make it that far?' But you DO have to do that with an EV. Which makes it a pain the a** for road trips.
No one wants to sit on the corner of a deserted parking lot for 25 minutes, especially if you have kids in the car, and wait for their car to recharge. No one. And its laughable that techbros even pretend that this is some kind of 'advancement' as they try to argue that watching Netflix on their screens when they could be driving is an improvement of the driving experience because their $100,000 car is 'cheap to charge'. It's just not. Time is money and a waste of time is a waste of time, no matter how many tech features your fancy car is.
I was so happy we rented a Tesla on a recent vacation. Best decision ever. We rented one in Florida which is supposed to have pretty decent infrastructure. Hotel's chargers were all broken and...
I was so happy we rented a Tesla on a recent vacation. Best decision ever. We rented one in Florida which is supposed to have pretty decent infrastructure. Hotel's chargers were all broken and they couldn't have cared less. Every night I had to drive down the road to the super charger and top up the car. Every trip took at least an hour longer. After a couple days, the novelty had worn off. When you have 3 young kids, a four hour trip that turns into five and half due to charging gets old fast.
I've written off FEVs. They are fine if you just drive around town, but if you need to do long trips, they suck. A friend for a PHEV Pacifica. He loves it. Trips around town are all electric, but road trips are hybrid. He can gas and go when traveling and charges at home.
PHEV seems like the way to go. You have the best of both worlds. I just wish there were more options in that space. Similar to your story, my buddy took his Rivian to the mountains. But his AirBNB...
PHEV seems like the way to go. You have the best of both worlds. I just wish there were more options in that space. Similar to your story, my buddy took his Rivian to the mountains. But his AirBNB didn't have a charger, and it only changes off a couple miles of range per hour. The closest charger to him was 40 miles away. He ended up having to plan his entire trip around driving to the city to charge, and said it was a huge drag on his vacation. I'd sooner buy another ICE vehicle than deal with that.
Yeah, my next car will be a PHEV. I tracked my trip mileage for a couple months and 85% of my trips were less than 20 miles. So a PHEV is perfect for my family.
Yeah, my next car will be a PHEV. I tracked my trip mileage for a couple months and 85% of my trips were less than 20 miles. So a PHEV is perfect for my family.
I've come down on hybrid being the best for me, but I'm struggling to find a PHEV that is small. My partner and I drive a small hatchback (Europe) and the vast majority of PHEVs I see are pretty...
I've come down on hybrid being the best for me, but I'm struggling to find a PHEV that is small. My partner and I drive a small hatchback (Europe) and the vast majority of PHEVs I see are pretty big. Smaller ones tend to be either fully electric (and expensive) or mild hybrid. I'd really like the ability to do small trips fully on the battery and leverage the ICE for longer (and/or faster) trips, but I'm struggling to get that particular flexibility in a small-footprint car.
I, personally, really want to be done with internal combustion engines. There's so much you have to worry about with an ICE that just goes away with something that's fully electric. No more...
I, personally, really want to be done with internal combustion engines. There's so much you have to worry about with an ICE that just goes away with something that's fully electric. No more gasoline, engine oil, or engine coolant; no exhaust system or gearbox; more than half the routine maintenance goes away; mechanical repairs are much simpler. PHEVs, from that perspective, are much the same as ICE vehicles, just a little less annoying.
But full EVs need a good charging network and decent battery capacities. We're getting there, but not yet within my price range. I've resigned myself to the fact that when my current series hybrid vehicle dies, the best I'm likely to be able to do is a PHEV, with a full EV still quite a few years out.
EVs are typically liquid cooled, so there’s still coolant to worry about. Though they seem anecdotally go to wrong less than in ICE cars, I would imagine the failure rate isn’t that different....
EVs are typically liquid cooled, so there’s still coolant to worry about. Though they seem anecdotally go to wrong less than in ICE cars, I would imagine the failure rate isn’t that different.
Unfortunately with the way that the market is going it looks more like ICE cars are probably just going to raise their price to meet what EVs are selling for. The market is crazy.
We were in FL for BMX races, saw SeaWorld, saw some family, etc. The BMX days it wasn't far persay, but they are all day events where the cat is respite from the heat. Most days we were traveling...
We were in FL for BMX races, saw SeaWorld, saw some family, etc. The BMX days it wasn't far persay, but they are all day events where the cat is respite from the heat. Most days we were traveling a couple hundred miles round trip.
Roadtripping in an EV is worse but it's not that bad, either. And the reality is that you commute and get groceries way more than you road trip, so a car optimized for the former but not the...
Roadtripping in an EV is worse but it's not that bad, either. And the reality is that you commute and get groceries way more than you road trip, so a car optimized for the former but not the latter is that big of an issue.
The concerns about uptake seem unwarranted in reality - EVs sell like hotcakes, and any competent EV model has a long waitlist at dealers. People are absolutely buying EVs - supply is the issue, really. Not only are EVs expensive, but they're hard to buy even if you have the cash. Even with all that, EVs are selling very well.
Not everyone cares about road tripping, (and less so if ice vehicles can be freely rented). Similarly not everyone cares to drive a truck. But I do take long trips from time to time and would...
Not everyone cares about road tripping, (and less so if ice vehicles can be freely rented). Similarly not everyone cares to drive a truck. But I do take long trips from time to time and would prefer a hybrid or plug in hybrid until conditions improve.
I'm fully onboard the EV future train, but it just isn't there yet. I had to buy a new car last December and I had really wanted to make the switch to a full EV. For most of the things I was...
I'm fully onboard the EV future train, but it just isn't there yet. I had to buy a new car last December and I had really wanted to make the switch to a full EV. For most of the things I was planning to do (go to my sport activities I play, travel to stores, visit friends, etc.), it would work perfectly. But I also go on like a week+ long road trip at least once a year, often to area that are remote.
There were virtually no EVs that had a 300+ mile range, and those that did were prohibitively expensive. The charging infrastructure just isn't there, and the other major problem is that most EVs on the market right now have a base sticker price that is just out of the range of most people. The few that I could find that were not 60k+ and were actually in stock, the dealers were adding 10k+ "market adjustments" to the price tag.
Unless you have cash to burn, it's just not there yet.
Yes, I think right now the only way for it to work is to have two cars: a full EV for knocking around town and a hybrid/full-ICE vehicle for longer road trips, visiting back home etc. etc. And at...
Yes, I think right now the only way for it to work is to have two cars: a full EV for knocking around town and a hybrid/full-ICE vehicle for longer road trips, visiting back home etc. etc. And at that point, you have to wonder where the sustainability gains are going...
I've driven my Tesla for 4 years now and frequently take it on road trips. I live in Knoxville and driving to DC or down to FL is not a big deal, that's 2 to 3 stops in the trip, maybe 20-25...
I've driven my Tesla for 4 years now and frequently take it on road trips. I live in Knoxville and driving to DC or down to FL is not a big deal, that's 2 to 3 stops in the trip, maybe 20-25 minutes each? They never feel long since after parking the car, hitting the restroom, and looking at snacks or food the car is usually done by the time all of that is completed with kids.
Maybe it's just a positive experience with Tesla's charging network and placement, but I've always had amenities around. Most chargers are near a bunch of businesses or a gas station.
You can lower those charge times if you use ABRP. The default Tesla charge time recommendations often have you get to each charger with a relatively high battery percentage despite the fact that...
You can lower those charge times if you use ABRP. The default Tesla charge time recommendations often have you get to each charger with a relatively high battery percentage despite the fact that you charge faster at lower percentages. So if you charge to 50% so you arrive at 5%, you might charge for 10 minutes instead of the 25 minutes to charge to 70% and arrive at 25%.
The scary part about that notion is if you get to the next station at 5% and the chargers are either full or out of order, and you don't have enough charge to go anywhere else.
The scary part about that notion is if you get to the next station at 5% and the chargers are either full or out of order, and you don't have enough charge to go anywhere else.
If your car has 250 miles range and you’re at 5% you still have 12.5 miles, which is generally enough you can go to another one if you are in a big city. And if the chargers are full you do have...
If your car has 250 miles range and you’re at 5% you still have 12.5 miles, which is generally enough you can go to another one if you are in a big city. And if the chargers are full you do have the option of waiting, as sucky as that is.
Most charging stations have multiple chargers so it’s not quite as bad as you would think.
And then beyond that, charging networks are growing, too. The times, they are a-changin’.
This is assuming you're actually in a city and not in the middle of nowhere like many chargers are (which was the original point of this whole topic). I posted a YouTube video a while back about a...
This is assuming you're actually in a city and not in the middle of nowhere like many chargers are (which was the original point of this whole topic). I posted a YouTube video a while back about a guy driving an electric coach bus across the US, and he absolutely ran into charging stations where literally none of the chargers worked, or were de-rated. And someone else posted about this situation with their car in another comment in regards to charger vandalism.
Charging infrastructure is coming along nicely in cities indeed. But just like any other mass infrastructure projects, such as high speed internet, it's going to take years for this not to be an issue in rural areas.
That's why I bought a Tesla. The chargers actually work and get repaired quickly if they don't. Additionally, 5% battery can let you sit around for hours waiting for a spot to open up. It's not...
That's why I bought a Tesla. The chargers actually work and get repaired quickly if they don't. Additionally, 5% battery can let you sit around for hours waiting for a spot to open up. It's not that big of a deal.
There is a vast gulf between Tesla's charging network and everyone else in the US. I've only been inconvenienced a handful of times after 4 years of ownership, with most of those pains early on...
There is a vast gulf between Tesla's charging network and everyone else in the US. I've only been inconvenienced a handful of times after 4 years of ownership, with most of those pains early on when everything was still pretty new. I will never, ever go back to a gasoline car.
Tesla doesn't make a vehicle that I want. But my understanding is that the other manufacturers (some of who do make a vehicle that I'd buy) will eventually be compatible with Tesla's chargers. So...
Tesla doesn't make a vehicle that I want. But my understanding is that the other manufacturers (some of who do make a vehicle that I'd buy) will eventually be compatible with Tesla's chargers. So hopefully this sort of thing becomes less of an issue. I'm not in the market for a new vehicle, but if I were, it wouldn't be electric given today's issues.
As a counterpoint to the other comment, my recent trip to southern France (from Switzerland) went without any major hurdle. We drove with my wife about 2 and a half hour each and having a 30...
As a counterpoint to the other comment, my recent trip to southern France (from Switzerland) went without any major hurdle.
We drove with my wife about 2 and a half hour each and having a 30 minutes rest at a highway rest area was welcome pause (perhaps 10 minutes longer than what we usually do?). We also charged while doing the groceries (about 1 hour) near our destination. This was supposed to be a fast(ish) charger (50kW) but I couldn't get me car get faster than the standard 7kW charging speed. Bummer.
At destination, the public charger were out of order due to anti ev vandalism (puuting ropes inside the plug, seriously?), but we had more than enough juice to get to a fast charger on our way home; we'd just have to refill the battery on a rest area that was earlier than planned.
Ropes inside the plug?! I'm struggling (but very curious) to imagine how that worked. That's incredibly frustrating though. I don't have a vehicle that requires these chargers (yet?!) but I often...
Ropes inside the plug?! I'm struggling (but very curious) to imagine how that worked. That's incredibly frustrating though. I don't have a vehicle that requires these chargers (yet?!) but I often mosey over to have a look, and the ones around me often have a time limit that makes me apprehensive. If I was really wanting to use them, one or two hours might not be enough. Unless you're expecting drivers to hop around in the city, which seems terrible for traffic.
Edit to add: I guess the city ones are not supposed to fully charge your car, they're just a nice perk to enjoy, but really you charge at home. You can tell I don't have one of these cars so I don't really understand real-world usage patterns.
In a way this is both a major disadvantage of electric cars, but also a sign of one of their advantages. Can you imagine gas stations being like this? There just being unmanned gas pumps on the...
In a way this is both a major disadvantage of electric cars, but also a sign of one of their advantages. Can you imagine gas stations being like this? There just being unmanned gas pumps on the road? Of course not, that'd be insanely dangerous, not to mention people would rob the things blind.
That EV charging stations can be these cheap, unmanned things is an advantage once more infrastructure is built out.
There are also unfortunately issues with vandalism, sometimes to the point of making them unusable. https://www.ktvu.com/news/ev-charging-cables-cut-off-and-stolen-from-chargers-in-oakland...
I live in Oakland and the city is a real showcase of "this is why we can't have nice things" or why nice things are privatized and locked up. I have a friend who was the parks director for another...
I live in Oakland and the city is a real showcase of "this is why we can't have nice things" or why nice things are privatized and locked up.
I have a friend who was the parks director for another major Californian city (pop >100k). It was nowhere as bad as Oakland, but their parks district still spent several million a year on cleaning up after vandalism. Every time someone burns a playground down, that's $1 million from the budget to rebuild it. Someone decides to blow up a park trash can for shits and giggles? I can't remember the exact figure, but it something ludicrous like $10k+ for clean up, buying the replacement, and installing it.
Oh hello neighbor! Bowl is life, Bowl is love. For people who don't know the grace and glory of the Bowl, it's a grocery store in Berkeley that has an extremely extensive produce selection. One...
Oh hello neighbor! Bowl is life, Bowl is love.
For people who don't know the grace and glory of the Bowl, it's a grocery store in Berkeley that has an extremely extensive produce selection. One will find 8 varieties of eggplants, 5 varieties of sweet potatoes, and many vegetables and fruits that one never knew even existed.
My in-laws heard about Berkeley Bowl for a decade, since we can get all of the interesting specialty ingredients they can't get in their small town. It had gotten to be an in-joke that we could...
My in-laws heard about Berkeley Bowl for a decade, since we can get all of the interesting specialty ingredients they can't get in their small town. It had gotten to be an in-joke that we could get whatever it was they needed, but they'd never been.
We finally took them, and they wandered around sightseeing for two hours and left with a very full car worth of stuff. Turns out they're now talking to their friends about how cool it was.
Huh. I’m pretty sure I’ve been to completely unmanned gas stations in the US late at night with CC pay at the pump (and a lot with only one staff member inside behind the counter).
Huh. I’m pretty sure I’ve been to completely unmanned gas stations in the US late at night with CC pay at the pump (and a lot with only one staff member inside behind the counter).
It feels like it's summarizing the Technology Connections video that discusses why gas stations have a purpose while lauding the standardization with plugs....
It feels like it's summarizing the Technology Connections video that discusses why gas stations have a purpose while lauding the standardization with plugs.
Yeah, most of them are pretty barren. I used to see a small set of chargers reasonably close to the entrances of large shopping places like wal-marts and malls, but a lot of those seem to have been pulled out since then for some reason. It’s much more common to see a larger bank of them on the far side of a far-too-big parking lot instead, where there are absolutely no amenities anywhere nearby. Seriously, nobody even thought to put in a basic shade.
I’ve been thinking of starting a food cart business just because it seems like a perfect captive audience.
It's so weird that tech companies seem hellbent on reinventing everything just to say they're 'innovating'.
Sure, sprinkle chargers around parking lots like confetti, that makes a lot of sense. At least if you can hide/protect the loud high voltage DC transformers for fast charging, but level 1-2 chargers are better for a lot of reasons. Not least of them battery lifetime.
But service/gas stations aren't the way they are because Ford/GM decided they should be. They're the way they are because of many decades of businesses figuring out what worked / was wanted. Throwing out decades of consumer research because the powerplant of the vehicle doesn't run on rotten algae is silly.
Service/gas stations are the way they are because you can't make any money on retail gas because people seek out the least expensive option and have very little tolerance for higher prices. However, they are stuck pumping gas for a few minutes, frequently want a bathroom, and maybe a drink or some snacks. Conveniently, drinks and snacks are pretty good margin items.
That chargers aren't being built with the idea of cross-selling high-margin snacks should be alarming because it means either: They are making a ton of money somewhere; and/or, they are too dumb to look at what the competition is doing.
Gas station net profits are about 1% per gallon of fuel, so yeah they aren't making any money there.
30% of revenue, but 70% of profits are from sales inside the store where margins range from 15% for tobacco to 39-44% for snacks/drinks and 50%+ for candy.
44% of gas stations customers go inside (footfall) the store, 33% of those actually buy something (sales).
The industry studies show that the longer someone is at the gas station, the more likely they are to go inside and therefore buy something, with 5 minutes being the major dividing line.
So this seems great for electric charging as people will be there for longer than 5 minutes...
The thing is people seem to forget that gas stations are smaller than other retail establishments, have fewer items, and thrive on customer turnover. The average fuel time for a gasoline vehicle is 2-3 minutes. That's 3 minutes until the pump is free and the next customer shows up. An EV sitting there for 30 minutes while might nearly guarantee a customer go inside the store and buy something, has still taken up the space of 10 other customers. Take the number above for footfall and sales and you find that one EV customer takes up the space of 1.452 gas customers, gotta make up for the 45.2% loss by having EV chargers replace pumps (the direction laypersons think the gas stations will/should go) somewhere.
Also need to factor in that everyone with an ICE car has to go to the gas station, while 80% of all EV charging is done at home. So you've gone from a market that serves 100% of car owners to one that serves 20% of them.
With gross profits on EV charging hovering around the 30% mark you aren't going to make the shortfall off electricity and the ROI on the installation of the chargers is low. 150kW chargers, on the low end, cost $50,000 each to install, $30 average price charged at a typical fast charger is $10 in gross profit, totaling 5,000 cars charged just to break even (assuming the charger never needs repair) per charger. Did I mention that the average charger sees two cars per day? Nearly 7 years to recoup the cost of one charger that works perfectly the entire time.
This is why chargers are installed around parking lots of retail stores. It has shown to increase the amount of time spent inside the store (dwell time) by half an hour. Someone inside a Walmart or Target that increases their time in store from 25 minutes to 55 minutes, greatly increases the store's profitability, this doesn't happen at a gas station as there's no reason to be inside one for more than 5 minutes, let alone 35.
Side note: This is one of those things I don't see people mention ever. Sure the cost to fill up an EV is lower, but they don't account for the cost of human boredom in our capitalistic hellscape where you save money on fuel costs, but just end up buying more and more junk every time you stop to charge.
As for someone who is very anticonsumption in general, I'm all for giving people more incentive to drop the mindset where they automatically buy junk.
Where did you get these stats? Cite your source(s), it increases your credibility! It’s great info!
Sometimes there aren't published sources; you build up knowledge of the economics of an industry by being inside it, and no one writes that stuff down.
People also make things up on the internet, but not everything without sources is bullshit.
Electricity can be very cheap and there is a chance they may be getting discounted or subsidized rates on top of that. I looked up the last time I charged at a public fast charger and I was billed at 68 cents per kWh plus a 99 cent transaction fee. To put that into perspective the average residential price of electricity in this state is 31 cents and the average commercial price is just under 20 cents.
That's the other thing that's really annoying about fast charging stations. Sure electricity is relatively 'inexpensive' compared to gas, but you'd have to be a fool to think that it's going to stay that way if EVs become as popular as ICE vehicles. The bottom line is profit and if ICE were to disappear, fast charging stations would become as expensive or more expensive than gas.
I'm not too sure about that. The thing is that we don't need to import electricity from other countries. And charging station compete with one very obvious factor: your house. Unless you're doing some long distance traveling, you can plan around getting back home to recharge.
At that rate, it'd be better to drive prices down and encourage people to walk around and dine/snack at local business. Because let's face it: if the govt. doesn't do it (nor regulate it), you know some Wal-mart or other super corp will implement it for pennies, for obvious reason. I know Costco is going to get on that within the next decade for sure.
Indeed.
I used to work on the technology side of Europe's largest EV charger network. Businesses like IKEA want to have chargers installed on-premise because it draws high-income (and thus high-value) foot traffic. They often subsidize the charging tariff.
Even if the chargers become as expensive as gas, you can still charge an EV with electricity you generate at home. Making your gasoline is more complex than using solar panels or a personal windmill. Vehicles can become whole-house batteries, making homes more resilient to brownouts or blackouts.
Fair point. And that is a big advantage of an EV. I actually do have a small 'hobby set' of solar panels with an off grid battery setup and inverter - 1800w of panels - and I have on rare occasions charged our tiny EV (24 kWh battery) with it, so I know it can be done. It takes more than a day if its really low, but then again Im literally driving on sunshine, for free, when it's full. Definitely won't be doing that with gasoline.
I mean, those things are pretty new, so whoever installed them there probably still needs to recoup the hardware investment.
And a single level 3 charging stations starts at $30k, and if they come with internal batteries (because the grid can't support 10 Level 3 chargers all going at the same time in this location), they cost more than $100k a piece. If they use one without batteries, but had to rip open the ground to put in new high voltage lines instead, the price is probably pretty similar.
If the average charge costs $30, they make $18 profit per car serviced. How long does it take until a single terminal has charged several thousand cars? How much interest are they paying on the loan in the meantime? How much in service contracts?
The average charge costs more than $5. My last charge was nearly $10 for only 12.5kWh. For a sense of scale my car’s battery has a capacity of 65kWh.
I’d say that charging stations with battery backups are rare because I haven’t seen any but I would guess there wouldn’t be any obvious sign of them being there. That being said I haven’t noticed any of the charge stations having more big metal boxes than normal.
Good point, turns out all chargers I have for reference are heavily subsidized. Yes, at 68c/kWh average charge is probably closer to $30 then. I'll edit.
I mean it's not really a tech company thing. These aren't being run by "tech" companies outside of Tesla, which is a "tech" company anyway. Most of the US's chargers are because Volkswagon lied on emissions reports and was penalized into paying billions of dollars of EV chargers by the government.
Yep, it's just cost reduction and cutting corners. It isn't helped by the fact that EVs need the space/EVSE for a much longer period of time than a gas pump, making the economic throughput per surface area much lower (which in turn makes it hard to justify buying up valuable property in dense high-traffic areas.
In Texas I saw charging stations in a parking lot as far as possible from the nearby mall entrance. I'm guessing the logic is that most people are shitty and will park their gas car in the charging spot if it's a convenient location for walking to the door. So if you put the charging spots really far away the EV owners can still charge and won't complain to the mall staff as much. They hear less complaints and then consider the problem solved.
For now, while chargers are somewhat rare and BEVs are not the primary vehicle, this is absolutely why the charging spots are out on the edges of the parking lot.
I was actually just reading an article that said the same logic a few days ago. I wish where I read it could pop back into my head so I could link it here, but it is escaping me just now.
It's also infrastructure/cost of installation.
Parking lot lights don't have the electrical connections to handle EV charging and if you go to a retail store/mall and look up you'll notice you don't see a single power line anywhere going to the store, it's all underground or enters the back of the building. So they need to install the charging infrastructure that can handle fast charging, wiring that can handle such is expensive, tearing up a parking lot to bury it to closer parking spots is more expensive than just putting it at the edge of the lot where you have to run 50 feet of wiring instead of a few thousand.
Huh I never thought of that but it makes a lot of sense. Do utility hookups usually come near the street?
OMG, yes. I can't even count how many times I've been sitting in some barren parking lot and remarked that even a tiny, shitty little coffee kiosk would be welcome. What about coin-operated port-a-potties?
If absolutely nothing else, every charging stop should have a trash can.
Different cities may have different issues and risks. Here in the San Francisco bay area, public unmonitored bathrooms get trashed quickly and used for other than their intended purpose.
Well, the "nothing around, not even a trash can or walkable bathroom" problem is one I've tended to run into in more rural areas or small cities -- not exactly a Bay Area sort of place.
True. I have had excellent experiences with bathrooms at state run rest stops although that is not a perfect analog either
The reality is it’s not as simple as just placing a trash can there. Who empties and maintains that trash can? Now you’re talking about hiring someone to do that.
I keep saying, if small towns want to revitalize main Street, put in low cost or free EV chargers. You just became a destination for some people.
Mall parking lots should be covered in chargers. 30 minutes to charge becomes a hour plus of shopping, food, etc. I just don't get it.
This is also kind of the problem with free/discounted charging at malls, Costco, IKEA, etc.—there's going to be limited availability of EVSE spots relative to who might want to take advantage, and people aren't going to come out mid-shopping to move their car when it's finished.
Maybe if they're all level 2 chargers those points can be less of an issue, but running a sizeable deployment of EVSE comes at a high cost (electricity isn't cheap everywhere) and realistically isn't winning those places many more customers than they already would've had.
Charge for occupying the space, offer a valet service to move it to avoid the charge or pledge to move it yourself to avoid paying for valet or the occupying space penalty. Get a discount for buying something in the mall to ‘validate’ your charge like parking validation. The problem has options to solve it. We could bring back gas station attendants haha.
Many of them have the option to charge a parking fee that charges an hourly rate after the car has finished charging.
That being said, the only charger I've seen that does it is a Level 2 charger (i.e. less likely to reach that point because it's slow), and even that can be circumvented because you can simply remotely end the session with the app.
I'm no expert, but based on other stuff I've read in this thread it seems like it costs tens of thousands of dollars to install these chargers. Might be a hard sell to shell out that much money for a mall that's already in dire straits (which I assume many are).
It’s a good idea. The other weekend I was driving a rental Tesla down from Guerneville to Oakland. I had to make a recharge stop at some point — I didn’t have enough charge to make the whole trip home. So I was looking up superchargers…
They were only along Route 101. I wanted to take an alternative route and see some off-the-beaten-path towns, but nothing.
Excellent idea imho. I know people are avoiding reddit, but in this case I might seek out the urban planners and suggest this.
A destination for people that you know will be there for at least half an hour, and it's a demographic that will have more money (you know they own a relatively new car, and many EVs are pretty expensive).
Beyond just basic bathroom facilities, you would think that a charging station (where you'll literally be captive for at least 20-30m) would be the perfect place for a mediocre cafe that could pretty much charge whatever it wants.
Yeah, kind of like how a lot of car washes have some kind of food place attached, and a mini mart. It seems like a no brainer. I don’t get it.
The issues surrounding the minimalism of charging stations was mentioned recently in a Technology Connections video (around 38:00). How it's weird that there aren't canopies, convenience stores, restrooms, or even those squeegees you see at gas stations to clean your windshield.
Especially in hot climates, the lack of shade is dangerous.
This is why I keep saying that charging at home makes sense but road tripping in an EV does not. Its a no brainer to own something you use during the day and take 4 seconds to plug in when you get home and use it again the next day. Its the perfect use case for an EV.
They do NOT make sense for road tripping or charging away from home (especially in charging deserts like western Canada) and they won't proliferate til they do.
But there will be no mass uptake of a device that is LESS convenient than the thing its replacing and the fact is, as much as my fellow EV enthusiasts like to talk about their cars, planning a road trip is always a dicey, complicated affair compared to using an ICE car. No one gets in an ICE and wonders 'where will I fill up? Can I pee there? And if the pumps aren't working at that station, where is the next closest one and can I make it that far?' But you DO have to do that with an EV. Which makes it a pain the a** for road trips.
No one wants to sit on the corner of a deserted parking lot for 25 minutes, especially if you have kids in the car, and wait for their car to recharge. No one. And its laughable that techbros even pretend that this is some kind of 'advancement' as they try to argue that watching Netflix on their screens when they could be driving is an improvement of the driving experience because their $100,000 car is 'cheap to charge'. It's just not. Time is money and a waste of time is a waste of time, no matter how many tech features your fancy car is.
I was so happy we rented a Tesla on a recent vacation. Best decision ever. We rented one in Florida which is supposed to have pretty decent infrastructure. Hotel's chargers were all broken and they couldn't have cared less. Every night I had to drive down the road to the super charger and top up the car. Every trip took at least an hour longer. After a couple days, the novelty had worn off. When you have 3 young kids, a four hour trip that turns into five and half due to charging gets old fast.
I've written off FEVs. They are fine if you just drive around town, but if you need to do long trips, they suck. A friend for a PHEV Pacifica. He loves it. Trips around town are all electric, but road trips are hybrid. He can gas and go when traveling and charges at home.
PHEV seems like the way to go. You have the best of both worlds. I just wish there were more options in that space. Similar to your story, my buddy took his Rivian to the mountains. But his AirBNB didn't have a charger, and it only changes off a couple miles of range per hour. The closest charger to him was 40 miles away. He ended up having to plan his entire trip around driving to the city to charge, and said it was a huge drag on his vacation. I'd sooner buy another ICE vehicle than deal with that.
Yeah, my next car will be a PHEV. I tracked my trip mileage for a couple months and 85% of my trips were less than 20 miles. So a PHEV is perfect for my family.
I've come down on hybrid being the best for me, but I'm struggling to find a PHEV that is small. My partner and I drive a small hatchback (Europe) and the vast majority of PHEVs I see are pretty big. Smaller ones tend to be either fully electric (and expensive) or mild hybrid. I'd really like the ability to do small trips fully on the battery and leverage the ICE for longer (and/or faster) trips, but I'm struggling to get that particular flexibility in a small-footprint car.
Are the Prius Primes too big? They've certainly gotten more expensive over the years, but Toyota is pretty good at PHEVs.
The Prius isn't even marketed in the country I live in, it didn't have enough sales apparently :(
Bummer! Good luck finding something that works.
I, personally, really want to be done with internal combustion engines. There's so much you have to worry about with an ICE that just goes away with something that's fully electric. No more gasoline, engine oil, or engine coolant; no exhaust system or gearbox; more than half the routine maintenance goes away; mechanical repairs are much simpler. PHEVs, from that perspective, are much the same as ICE vehicles, just a little less annoying.
But full EVs need a good charging network and decent battery capacities. We're getting there, but not yet within my price range. I've resigned myself to the fact that when my current series hybrid vehicle dies, the best I'm likely to be able to do is a PHEV, with a full EV still quite a few years out.
EVs are typically liquid cooled, so there’s still coolant to worry about. Though they seem anecdotally go to wrong less than in ICE cars, I would imagine the failure rate isn’t that different.
Unfortunately with the way that the market is going it looks more like ICE cars are probably just going to raise their price to meet what EVs are selling for. The market is crazy.
How far were you driving every day to need to charge every night?
We were in FL for BMX races, saw SeaWorld, saw some family, etc. The BMX days it wasn't far persay, but they are all day events where the cat is respite from the heat. Most days we were traveling a couple hundred miles round trip.
Roadtripping in an EV is worse but it's not that bad, either. And the reality is that you commute and get groceries way more than you road trip, so a car optimized for the former but not the latter is that big of an issue.
The concerns about uptake seem unwarranted in reality - EVs sell like hotcakes, and any competent EV model has a long waitlist at dealers. People are absolutely buying EVs - supply is the issue, really. Not only are EVs expensive, but they're hard to buy even if you have the cash. Even with all that, EVs are selling very well.
Not everyone cares about road tripping, (and less so if ice vehicles can be freely rented). Similarly not everyone cares to drive a truck. But I do take long trips from time to time and would prefer a hybrid or plug in hybrid until conditions improve.
I'm fully onboard the EV future train, but it just isn't there yet. I had to buy a new car last December and I had really wanted to make the switch to a full EV. For most of the things I was planning to do (go to my sport activities I play, travel to stores, visit friends, etc.), it would work perfectly. But I also go on like a week+ long road trip at least once a year, often to area that are remote.
There were virtually no EVs that had a 300+ mile range, and those that did were prohibitively expensive. The charging infrastructure just isn't there, and the other major problem is that most EVs on the market right now have a base sticker price that is just out of the range of most people. The few that I could find that were not 60k+ and were actually in stock, the dealers were adding 10k+ "market adjustments" to the price tag.
Unless you have cash to burn, it's just not there yet.
Yes, I think right now the only way for it to work is to have two cars: a full EV for knocking around town and a hybrid/full-ICE vehicle for longer road trips, visiting back home etc. etc. And at that point, you have to wonder where the sustainability gains are going...
At least in the US you could rent a car for road trips and save a lot of money vs the cost and frustrations of owning a second car.
I've driven my Tesla for 4 years now and frequently take it on road trips. I live in Knoxville and driving to DC or down to FL is not a big deal, that's 2 to 3 stops in the trip, maybe 20-25 minutes each? They never feel long since after parking the car, hitting the restroom, and looking at snacks or food the car is usually done by the time all of that is completed with kids.
Maybe it's just a positive experience with Tesla's charging network and placement, but I've always had amenities around. Most chargers are near a bunch of businesses or a gas station.
You can lower those charge times if you use ABRP. The default Tesla charge time recommendations often have you get to each charger with a relatively high battery percentage despite the fact that you charge faster at lower percentages. So if you charge to 50% so you arrive at 5%, you might charge for 10 minutes instead of the 25 minutes to charge to 70% and arrive at 25%.
The scary part about that notion is if you get to the next station at 5% and the chargers are either full or out of order, and you don't have enough charge to go anywhere else.
If your car has 250 miles range and you’re at 5% you still have 12.5 miles, which is generally enough you can go to another one if you are in a big city. And if the chargers are full you do have the option of waiting, as sucky as that is.
Most charging stations have multiple chargers so it’s not quite as bad as you would think.
And then beyond that, charging networks are growing, too. The times, they are a-changin’.
This is assuming you're actually in a city and not in the middle of nowhere like many chargers are (which was the original point of this whole topic). I posted a YouTube video a while back about a guy driving an electric coach bus across the US, and he absolutely ran into charging stations where literally none of the chargers worked, or were de-rated. And someone else posted about this situation with their car in another comment in regards to charger vandalism.
Charging infrastructure is coming along nicely in cities indeed. But just like any other mass infrastructure projects, such as high speed internet, it's going to take years for this not to be an issue in rural areas.
That's why I bought a Tesla. The chargers actually work and get repaired quickly if they don't. Additionally, 5% battery can let you sit around for hours waiting for a spot to open up. It's not that big of a deal.
Yes, and my point was that things are changing. At this point it’s not blind optimism anymore.
There is a vast gulf between Tesla's charging network and everyone else in the US. I've only been inconvenienced a handful of times after 4 years of ownership, with most of those pains early on when everything was still pretty new. I will never, ever go back to a gasoline car.
Tesla doesn't make a vehicle that I want. But my understanding is that the other manufacturers (some of who do make a vehicle that I'd buy) will eventually be compatible with Tesla's chargers. So hopefully this sort of thing becomes less of an issue. I'm not in the market for a new vehicle, but if I were, it wouldn't be electric given today's issues.
I could, and that is an option, but I'm not feeling inconvenienced by a 20 minute break every 2-2.5 hours and I like stretching my legs!
As a counterpoint to the other comment, my recent trip to southern France (from Switzerland) went without any major hurdle.
We drove with my wife about 2 and a half hour each and having a 30 minutes rest at a highway rest area was welcome pause (perhaps 10 minutes longer than what we usually do?). We also charged while doing the groceries (about 1 hour) near our destination. This was supposed to be a fast(ish) charger (50kW) but I couldn't get me car get faster than the standard 7kW charging speed. Bummer.
At destination, the public charger were out of order due to anti ev vandalism (puuting ropes inside the plug, seriously?), but we had more than enough juice to get to a fast charger on our way home; we'd just have to refill the battery on a rest area that was earlier than planned.
Ropes inside the plug?! I'm struggling (but very curious) to imagine how that worked. That's incredibly frustrating though. I don't have a vehicle that requires these chargers (yet?!) but I often mosey over to have a look, and the ones around me often have a time limit that makes me apprehensive. If I was really wanting to use them, one or two hours might not be enough. Unless you're expecting drivers to hop around in the city, which seems terrible for traffic.
Edit to add: I guess the city ones are not supposed to fully charge your car, they're just a nice perk to enjoy, but really you charge at home. You can tell I don't have one of these cars so I don't really understand real-world usage patterns.
In a way this is both a major disadvantage of electric cars, but also a sign of one of their advantages. Can you imagine gas stations being like this? There just being unmanned gas pumps on the road? Of course not, that'd be insanely dangerous, not to mention people would rob the things blind.
That EV charging stations can be these cheap, unmanned things is an advantage once more infrastructure is built out.
There are also unfortunately issues with vandalism, sometimes to the point of making them unusable. https://www.ktvu.com/news/ev-charging-cables-cut-off-and-stolen-from-chargers-in-oakland
https://jalopnik.com/ev-charging-stations-uniquely-vulnerable-to-sabotage-1850399869
Some people suck.
I live in Oakland and the city is a real showcase of "this is why we can't have nice things" or why nice things are privatized and locked up.
I have a friend who was the parks director for another major Californian city (pop >100k). It was nowhere as bad as Oakland, but their parks district still spent several million a year on cleaning up after vandalism. Every time someone burns a playground down, that's $1 million from the budget to rebuild it. Someone decides to blow up a park trash can for shits and giggles? I can't remember the exact figure, but it something ludicrous like $10k+ for clean up, buying the replacement, and installing it.
Hello fellow Oaklander! Do you shop at the Bowl? We do.
Oh hello neighbor! Bowl is life, Bowl is love.
For people who don't know the grace and glory of the Bowl, it's a grocery store in Berkeley that has an extremely extensive produce selection. One will find 8 varieties of eggplants, 5 varieties of sweet potatoes, and many vegetables and fruits that one never knew even existed.
Best grocery store ever.
My in-laws heard about Berkeley Bowl for a decade, since we can get all of the interesting specialty ingredients they can't get in their small town. It had gotten to be an in-joke that we could get whatever it was they needed, but they'd never been.
We finally took them, and they wandered around sightseeing for two hours and left with a very full car worth of stuff. Turns out they're now talking to their friends about how cool it was.
Huh. I’m pretty sure I’ve been to completely unmanned gas stations in the US late at night with CC pay at the pump (and a lot with only one staff member inside behind the counter).
It feels like it's summarizing the Technology Connections video that discusses why gas stations have a purpose while lauding the standardization with plugs.
https://youtu.be/ZJOfyMCEzjQ?si=i_8jA-E2H0wg8Rqu