Every machine on the shop floor is hooked up to something like Ignition or some other brand (this is not any kind of suggestion that it's a good product, just one I have worked with a lot and kind...
Exemplary
Every machine on the shop floor is hooked up to something like Ignition or some other brand (this is not any kind of suggestion that it's a good product, just one I have worked with a lot and kind of hate). These all monitor every last tiny bit of the production floor and turn them into nice pretty graphs that alert 6 different people as soon your cycle time is off by a second because you sneezed. Those 6 people will all request documentation on what happened to cause the downtime, and you will hear all 6 people explain how the cycle times are very important to making sure that the downstream processes stay at 100% capacity all the time.
Of course, with manufacturing jobs being in relative demand, you can walk across the street for the exact same pay. Employers know that, so they have incentives for you to stay at the same place for a while. They might have a 401k vesting scheme that you get fully set after three years of employment or something. During that three years, you watch as the pay of new people walking in the door goes up dollars while your pay goes up 3.5% per year and there's no room in the budget for yours to go up.
The second there is any kind of upswing, you need to take the totally optional overtime that is absolutely not optional and you'll hear about it in your review if you aren't a team player. The second there's a downswing, you are laid off without pay for a couple of weeks. You might think that you could try to level off that curve, but that's not lean. Inventory is the devil. We have to react fast because we sold our shelves to pay for this monitoring software.
Oh, and I almost forgot - your anniversary is on November 2? You will never be able to take that day off because it happens to be John's birthday and he always takes his birthday off. Thanks to him being here three weeks longer than you, he gets seniority dibs on vacation. We are just so lean and efficient that two people attempting to schedule time off on the same line eight months ahead is just not something that can be worked around. Don't worry, as soon as John retires you will have dibs on that day.
Manufacturing jobs suck. I worked two weeks in an ice cream factory and that was enough to do whatever I could to stay far away. Many Americans have this rose colored view of manufacturing as if...
Manufacturing jobs suck. I worked two weeks in an ice cream factory and that was enough to do whatever I could to stay far away.
Many Americans have this rose colored view of manufacturing as if there’s something magical about manufacturing that creates good jobs you can support a middle class family on.
Except the reason manufacturing jobs were “good jobs” 50 years so was because they were so shit beforehand that they were all unionized. That’s the magic.
A union McDonald’s job in Denmark is a far better paying “good job” than a non-union manufacturing job in Alabama.
Yeah, exactly. The only people with a real desire to return to manufacturing work are middle aged or older, who use to have manufacturing jobs. Maybe some youngsters have a romanticized view of...
Yeah, exactly. The only people with a real desire to return to manufacturing work are middle aged or older, who use to have manufacturing jobs. Maybe some youngsters have a romanticized view of manufacturing, but it's far and few between. What 20 year old is aiming for work for a factory their rest of the lives?
The ones I know who've done (shiny and new) factory work locally say that the company treats people poorly. They hired a lot of folks then laid a lot of people off, moved shifts and hours around...
The ones I know who've done (shiny and new) factory work locally say that the company treats people poorly. They hired a lot of folks then laid a lot of people off, moved shifts and hours around and that's not even getting into whatever concerns employees had day to day.
Counter point. A friend just told me about Walmart shelf stocker health benefits and it's made me consider whether quitting my well paying job make sense for my family. In seriousness, because...
Counter point. A friend just told me about Walmart shelf stocker health benefits and it's made me consider whether quitting my well paying job make sense for my family. In seriousness, because family needs extended health. They're talking about thousands per year per category as opposed to 500.
Counter counter point, if a job offers great benefits but is easy to get because it has high turnover because the only people that stay there long term are there solely for the benefits, there's...
Counter counter point, if a job offers great benefits but is easy to get because it has high turnover because the only people that stay there long term are there solely for the benefits, there's probably a long list of cons to that pro.
It almost certainly makes more sense to try and move at least laterally in your current career and negotiate for better benefits at a new company.
I'm in the unglamorous side of tech / software. There is no such thing as negotiations. Yeah, I don't know if I have it in me to look for new work if this one goes, or if it'll be any good in...
I'm in the unglamorous side of tech / software. There is no such thing as negotiations.
Yeah, I don't know if I have it in me to look for new work if this one goes, or if it'll be any good in terms of salary plus benefits n
I obviously don't know where you're at, but I've been bottom tier tech support too. Go for positions you think you can stretch to, specialize. I've never had a job get better, but using it as a...
I obviously don't know where you're at, but I've been bottom tier tech support too. Go for positions you think you can stretch to, specialize. I've never had a job get better, but using it as a stepping stone is definitely possible. Experience is worth a lot.
Probably not helpful to you, but in case you find yourself in need, give a look at Colonial Williamsburg. Pay isn't that great, but not bad compared to Walmart, I'd bet. But people stay because of...
Probably not helpful to you, but in case you find yourself in need, give a look at Colonial Williamsburg. Pay isn't that great, but not bad compared to Walmart, I'd bet. But people stay because of the insurance. I can personally attest that it's good and we have good medical around here (Sentara and Riverside both). And while there is some stupid politics, imho, it's nowhere near the crap level of a place like Walmart.
There is a lot of truth here, but there’s also a lot of bad management practices on display. I also work in manufacturing, and have had positions on the shop floor, eventually up to a global...
There is a lot of truth here, but there’s also a lot of bad management practices on display. I also work in manufacturing, and have had positions on the shop floor, eventually up to a global leadership role in a medium-large company. I’ve deployed lots of tools like Ignition and others.
I have absolutely seen what you’re talking about - production managers who think that they are the rulers of the world because they have a modicum of power, and who treat people like they’re machines. I have also seen some really great ones who are loved by the sites they manage.
Unsurprisingly, it’s the latter who tend to perform better for the business in a broad sense. Turns out, when you treat people well and like they’re adults they tend to both appreciate you and enjoy their work more - which leads to better outcomes for everyone.
A really significant problem I see is that one bad leader (and worse, a series of them) can cause incredible amounts of damage that persists long after they leave the company. Even if their successor is pretty decent, the culture at the factory has been poisoned by mistrust and fear. It can take many years for a site to recover from that and get back to a place of mutual respect and trust. Sometimes they never fully make it there.
The software tools are not really a problem, how they are being used is a problem. If a human sneezing (I know that was mostly hyperbole, but also that it’s sort of not) can cause a significant enough variation that it’s noticeable financially, you’re using the wrong manufacturing process and/or have insufficient process controls.
Bad process design is never the machinist/operator/assembler’s fault - it’s a manufacturing engineering issue. They should be using the data from those tools to improve the process, not berate people.
I could go on about this for ages. I love manufacturing, and I get deeply frustrated by the, frankly, morons I see put in positions of power in some factories. They are almost always the real problem, not the folks on the shop floor who are doing most of the actual work.
Of course the technology isn't the root problem - tools are rarely inherently good or bad. My issue is that they really allow the bad management to make bad decisions faster with the explanation...
Of course the technology isn't the root problem - tools are rarely inherently good or bad. My issue is that they really allow the bad management to make bad decisions faster with the explanation of being "data driven decisions".
To be clear, I love manufacturing. Seeing the differences between an old acme screw machines and the modern CNC driven stuff with 18 axis movement is amazing.
Manufacturing just has a tendency to put the absolute worst people in positions of power at the expense of everyone around them.
It doesn’t help that data literacy among those types of managers tends to be pretty poor in general. The amount of time I’ve had to spend explaining the basics of what a common metric (e.g. OEE or...
It doesn’t help that data literacy among those types of managers tends to be pretty poor in general. The amount of time I’ve had to spend explaining the basics of what a common metric (e.g. OEE or Cpk/Ppk) really means to people who ought to know better is frustrating, to put it lightly. Or (repeatedly) explaining why measuring only one aspect of production is a bad idea, because without proper context you’ll incentivize corner cutting and have major blind spots…
There seems to be some pervasive idea that you can just plug metrics into a magic formula that can make the right decisions for you. They seem to always miss the implication that, if that were true, we could just cut out that layer of management entirely. The ability to consistently make good judgement calls based on available data + experience is supposed to be a key criteria for leadership, and yet is frequently absent from the skill set.
These all monitor every last tiny bit of the production floor and turn them into nice pretty graphs that alert 6 different people as soon your cycle time is off by a second because you sneezed. Those 6 people will all request documentation on what happened to cause the downtime, and you will hear all 6 people explain how the cycle times are very important to making sure that the downstream processes stay at 100% capacity all the time.
Speaking of Office Space. This is the beginning of the move - very first thing we see - the establishing shot of freeway, before we see actors. It's on I-635 just west of the interchange with the...
Speaking of Office Space. This is the beginning of the move - very first thing we see - the establishing shot of freeway, before we see actors.
It's on I-635 just west of the interchange with the Dallas North Tollway.
I worked in that building on the 4th and 6th floors in 1996-1997, at a company called Stream, International as Tier I tech support - first for CompuServe, then for HP DeskJet printers.
I do still remember the first time I saw that movie. It started and I was like,"Wait, what? Go back! Go back!!" lol
So I already had a soft spot for that movie from the start, and it is a favorite :)
I'm also all but certain that the printer-bashing scene was somewhere in Las Colinas, which is also in the Metroplex - I know they did some filming around there, at least. And that looks like that area :)
I'm posting this article to ~life, and not ~society or ~finance, because I'm coming at it from an individual's perspective. We're feeling and witnessing plenty of doom and gloom about AI replacing...
I'm posting this article to ~life, and not ~society or ~finance, because I'm coming at it from an individual's perspective. We're feeling and witnessing plenty of doom and gloom about AI replacing jobs, and then I saw this NPR article, and it gave me some hope that it's not going to be the cyberpunk dystopia people often paint, and there will still be demand for high skilled and high paying jobs.
My partner and I talk about the future a lot, and we've mused about re-skilling to new industries, now I'm gradually letting the reality set in, that at least one of us may have to take that plunge, and it's scary, but it doesn't seem that bad, more I think about it
Is there anyone on Tildes that has transitioned to the manufacturing industry, whether in the US or otherwise, and who cares to share their experience? Is it going to be hard for older folk to get into it, I'm guessing by apprenticeship, compared to a young high school or college grad? Are the manufacturing hubs more or less evenly spread across the US, or are there hot spots?
I transitioned from a high intellectual job to an entry level service job, where the minimum requirement is a GED. The issue that cannot be overstated enough is how fucking BORING it is. And also,...
I transitioned from a high intellectual job to an entry level service job, where the minimum requirement is a GED.
The issue that cannot be overstated enough is how fucking BORING it is. And also, if you had even a slight feeling of how dumb some of the people were who you previously worked with, you will be astounded at how dumb most of the new people you will work with are.
You will see first hand how bad the degradation of critical thinking skills and genuine void of curiosity there is in the world.
Another poster summarized how micromanaged you are and how messed up the pay scheme is. It’s one thing to be micromanaged by someone who is intellectually your peer, it’s another to be micromanaged by someone who is incompetent. A lot of these places also attract/hire power trippers and gatekeepers - obsessions with hierarchy. You will hear people who legitimately believe “if you can lean, you can clean” and despite them saying this everyday for their entire lives, still say it with a shit eating grin on their faces like it’s the cleverest thing anyone has ever said — because in their little kingdom - it is.
I like the reduced pressure and feeling of direct results from my actions that is present these days. In some ways there is also more camaraderie (trauma bonding and all, but also genuine interconnectedness from immediate cause and effect and empathy that comes from shared jobs). But I will not continue to do it, and I’ve only been doing it for like six months. The monotony and being led by idiots is mind stabbing.
On the other hand, It did work for my dad, but that is because he has other purposes in life and can truly compartmentalize his work life from his personal life. He also fulfilled a lot of his life as an engineer before making this transition, this is something he did post -50yrs old. He went from being an engineer to a candle maker on a factory line. He loves it and makes really good money. But he lives alone and dedicates all his spare time to his family and self learning. He has weird hours and is kinda the stereotypical man who won’t seek medical treatment for preventative care. He seems very healthy, but I’m not sure everyone’s body can take it.
I think these are pretty key. If a job is really truly just a job, and if the stupidity can be laughed off, it really isn't bad at all. I'm not here to disrupt or be lean or be part of a family or...
because he has other purposes in life...his life as an engineer before
I think these are pretty key. If a job is really truly just a job, and if the stupidity can be laughed off, it really isn't bad at all. I'm not here to disrupt or be lean or be part of a family or whatever. I'm here to dip candles in hot wax then go home and enjoy the money and benefits, and I don't care about whatever society thinks about my job because it doesn't say anything about me as a person.
A lot of kids temp jobs are like that: it's not their whole life, it's not their whole life, and there's a lot more to look forward to after clocking out.
In my teens, I worked, as many do, in fast food for a while. We moved and I applied for jobs; got hired at Taco Bell. Showed up for the first day. Didn't have any problem doing the food prep...
You will hear people who legitimately believe “if you can lean, you can clean”
In my teens, I worked, as many do, in fast food for a while.
We moved and I applied for jobs; got hired at Taco Bell.
Showed up for the first day. Didn't have any problem doing the food prep stuff. Didn't have any problem cleaning. Somewhere in there, got my lunch break. Came back from lunch, no prep work needed, so more cleaning. Didn't have any problem with that.
We ran out of things to clean. So manager said, "Great! Let's start the cleaning process over!"
and THAT i had a problem with.
Fuck that noise. I didn't mind work - working hard. But not that shit. Busywork? No. No thanks.
I put in four days notice, i.e. I'd work through the end of the week, but that was it. heh.
It reminds me of stories of people who were doing their service in the Army: "I had leaders tell me to move this pile of rocks from here to there in the middle of the desert, just to give me...
It reminds me of stories of people who were doing their service in the Army:
"I had leaders tell me to move this pile of rocks from here to there in the middle of the desert, just to give me something to do."
Over and over again, just to justify existence, under the guise of purpose.
And then really mean leaders get mad if you lengthen out how long it takes you to move the rocks. Even though it is a natural response, to slow down the task, because you know, if I finish moving these rocks quickly, you're going to ask me to move them again!
These mindsets are everywhere in modern America, and it really makes some work, unbearable.
This feels extremely rude reading it. I’m reminded that if you judge a fish’s intelligence by how well it can climb a tree, you’ll go your whole life thinking fish are stupid. I’ve felt like the...
you will be astounded at how dumb most of the new people you will work with are.
This feels extremely rude reading it. I’m reminded that if you judge a fish’s intelligence by how well it can climb a tree, you’ll go your whole life thinking fish are stupid.
I’ve felt like the smartest person in the room before, but that’s for the task at hand. Maybe these folk are intelligent in other ways that you just don’t see at work?
This is going to sound rough, but some people are just flat out dumber than others and one would expect a low-requirements job to have a greater proportion of them than an engineering firm (or...
This is going to sound rough, but some people are just flat out dumber than others and one would expect a low-requirements job to have a greater proportion of them than an engineering firm (or other high-requirements job).
I see your point, even agree with it, except for framing it as "dumber" as that very specifically is overly broad demeaning term about overall intelligence. A lot of people that are seen as "dumb"...
I see your point, even agree with it, except for framing it as "dumber" as that very specifically is overly broad demeaning term about overall intelligence. A lot of people that are seen as "dumb" simply have been dealth different cards in live with hugely different experiences that have shaped them and often limits their perspective.
In the context of this thread, some people really will have a lower overall intelligence making it a challenge to learn them new things. For others, it is more a lack of common sense that they simply have never been taught and likely never will be given all sorts of factors.
I am not writing this from a perspective where I am trying to say that with some patience and understanding they all can change. No, again, the behaviors are still incredibly frustrating to work with I just think that dumbing it down (pun intended) to people being "dumb" is ... dumb not a good mindset either.
You're often going to find me in threads on Tildes defending aspects of blue collar life, as I've worked as a mechanic, a welder, and other trades over the years, and you will find a wide variety...
You're often going to find me in threads on Tildes defending aspects of blue collar life, as I've worked as a mechanic, a welder, and other trades over the years, and you will find a wide variety of folks that don't conform to stereotypes.
That being said- @carrie (and @tannhauser) are not exaggerating. At all. Yes, you will find interesting people, and they will show up in interesting places!
They are not going to be the majority, and the bottom of the bell curve is going to be well-represented in low skill jobs.
I've worked in four tech orgs the past ~10 years. Before that, ~14 years working in kitchens, boat yards, and a short time at a locksmith shop. I very much agree. Edit: Apparently I'm one of the...
I've worked in four tech orgs the past ~10 years. Before that, ~14 years working in kitchens, boat yards, and a short time at a locksmith shop. I very much agree.
Edit: Apparently I'm one of the idiots. About 12 years. Not 14.
It’s always felt arrogant to me for someone to announce their perceived higher level of intelligence. And I can’t help but question if everyone feels that way? Like are @Carrie’s coworkers also...
It’s always felt arrogant to me for someone to announce their perceived higher level of intelligence.
And I can’t help but question if everyone feels that way? Like are @Carrie’s coworkers also said “sheesh they’re annoyingly dumb”?
I actually accept that someone might think I’m dumb as well. But I am confident in my own abilities to recognize or question when I may be engaging in ignorant behavior, a sign of intelligence,...
I actually accept that someone might think I’m dumb as well. But I am confident in my own abilities to recognize or question when I may be engaging in ignorant behavior, a sign of intelligence, imo. Of course I make mistakes all the time.
Also to be clear, I never said that I was smarter than everyone else, I claimed that someone may be shocked at how dumb their co workers are compared to the coworkers they had before. It’s a subtle difference, but I think it is worth mentioning.
I get it. People make mistakes. People are apathetic. People don’t always have enough time to do the “best job” or the “right thing”. People aren’t “paid enough to care” etc. But some people also just literally lack critical thinking skills and have probably had their innate curiosity beaten out of them. I also think you will run into more people that have absolutely 0 compassion or empathy left, because that has also been used against them/beaten out of them.
So I hope you trust me that I have given people the benefit of the doubt, but watched them let me down time and again, and that in my experience, the lack of curiosity and lack of critical thinking skills is a big part of it.
Even witnessing the customers is a big strain mentally. I fully understand now how COVID absolutely wrecked this country. I watch people lick their hands then count money/open plastic bags, then lick their hands again. People have no semblance of personal space either. People coughing or sneezing violently into the ether or their hand and then using a pin pad. Within the company, When I ask for even simple PPE (masks to wear while sweeping for example) I am told we don’t need them because it’s not dusty (can’t see visible dust ? Which is also inaccurate) when I ask for ear ppe for a very loud air compressor, “no one else has asked for this before/uses one”.
You may also have nothing in common because you often have to dumb down your language or talk about really banal things. Which again, is fine, we don’t have to be best friends at work, but it does make the jobs really boring. It also makes it hard to have common ground to explain things — I have no common ground to explain to people why we should use ppe- without becoming an entire lecturer and even then you’re met with glassy eyes and it’s exhausting. If you leave out explanation and say - it’s for safety, and you should at least provide it for people who want it regardless of your personal opinions, well, then you get into the gatekeepers/authoritarian crap. People at these jobs in positions of authority do not like being questioned, they do not act from places of good faith. It’s why I only recommend it for people who can compartmentalize.
Since my past jobs were in high levels of science, I hope you can understand that witnessing the blatant disregard for germ theory and other ppe disregards, coupled with the arrogance that they know better from their completely unsubstantiated claims, hits hard and leads me to the generalization that I think many people coming from a highly intellectual field, will be disappointed, at the very least
I’m curious if your experiences have been different.
Also to be clear, I never said that I was smarter than everyone else, I claimed that someone may be shocked at how dumb their co workers are compared to the coworkers they had before. It’s a subtle difference, but I think it is worth mentioning.
Spend time working with a genuinely unintelligent population, and you will no longer wonder that. If this sounds harsh and unfair, consider yourself blessed that you haven't had to come to terms...
Spend time working with a genuinely unintelligent population, and you will no longer wonder that. If this sounds harsh and unfair, consider yourself blessed that you haven't had to come to terms with working in such an environment, and I mean that honestly, and without negative judgement.
What’s irking me is that I’m on the other side of the experience most weeks. And I’m not a fan of being called dumb or stupid just because someone doesn’t take the time to realize there is more...
What’s irking me is that I’m on the other side of the experience most weeks. And I’m not a fan of being called dumb or stupid just because someone doesn’t take the time to realize there is more than one right way to do stuff. But as I said to @carrie “that’s a me problem, sorry for projecting”
My comment is about tolerating people at work. I don’t know these people outside of work. Of course I don’t think everyone at my job is dumb 100% of the time, as I cannot know that. What I am...
My comment is about tolerating people at work. I don’t know these people outside of work. Of course I don’t think everyone at my job is dumb 100% of the time, as I cannot know that.
What I am saying, is they are dumb at work. Like dumb enough to leave a cash drawer unattended, dumb. Dumb enough to want to play police when we are told not to chase suspected shoplifters. Dumb enough to not understand you cannot discuss someone’s race and other features over the microphone to target them for shoplifting. Dumb enough to talk about this loudly without shame. Dumb enough to stock an item next to another item instead of check to see if the barcodes match and stock them on the same peg. I really could go on all day. These are repeated behaviors over and over that are enabled by managers. So you are really surrounded by idiots, or for a better word, incompetent people at times.
If I sounded rude, it wasn’t my intention, tone is hard to convey online.
I responded elsewhere, personally I think the choice word "dumb" might not be as helpful. As you said, it is more a lack of overall work competence or common sense skills. Having said that, having...
I responded elsewhere, personally I think the choice word "dumb" might not be as helpful. As you said, it is more a lack of overall work competence or common sense skills.
Having said that, having worked a lot of different jobs during college and right out of college I can confirm what you are saying. Which is not a US specific, though I suspect some of it might be worse in the US compared to my experience due to differences in the education system and (lack of) worker protection laws.
But, for me, the experience was bad enough that once I got into my current field of working it took me years before I was able to trust managers and coworkers again. Because I was always looking for the sort of micromanaged power plays I was so used to in these previous jobs.
I guess that is also why I am having an issue with the phrasing of "dumb". In many cases I wonder if it isn't simply that people stopped caring about even basic stuff. Because, in their mind, it doesn't matter anyway and they have been in the system for so long that they mentally checked out.
That’s a fair criticism. And after some pondering from your comment and @sunbutt23 comment. I could choose kinder words in the future. Tbh it’s a sign of my own apathy and burnout. I hope from my...
That’s a fair criticism. And after some pondering from your comment and @sunbutt23 comment. I could choose kinder words in the future. Tbh it’s a sign of my own apathy and burnout.
I hope from my rebuttal to their comment you can see I do have a deeper understanding of the forces that be, and do have compassion for people I struggle to work with.
But in the future, I will consider my word choices a bit more.
I hope people can understand that sometimes on the internet word choice is not as serious as it seems. It’s interesting to me that people are willing to be called “intellectually limited” or “lower level of intelligence”(which is worse imo, since it is comparative) or something instead of “dumb”, when I feel many of those other words are coded as “smart person’s word for dumb people.” I suppose the long phrase “lack of critical thinking skills and lack of curiosity” or “ignorant” are other choices.
Beyond all of that noise- you bring up another point, relevant to the parent comment degradation of trust and falling into the mindset of figuring out if what you’re being asked to do truly has purpose and meaning vs. being some weird power play, weighs on your body and mind…
All fair :) Like I said, I fully understand where you are coming from. For sure, it was clear to me that for you, it was clear it was written with more nuance in mind. But I can also see how it...
All fair :) Like I said, I fully understand where you are coming from.
I hope people can understand that sometimes on the internet word choice is not as serious as it seems.
For sure, it was clear to me that for you, it was clear it was written with more nuance in mind. But I can also see how it doesn't come across to some other people.
It’s interesting to me that people are willing to be called “intellectually limited” or “lower level of intelligence”(which is worse imo, since it is comparative) or something instead of “dumb”, when I feel many of those other words are coded as “smart person’s word for dumb people.” I suppose the long phrase “lack of critical thinking skills and lack of curiosity” or “ignorant” are other choices.
I'd also apply the same to someone talking about intelligence levels. In a different comment the difference in my mind is more about calling it "dumb behavior" vs calling people dumb (or other coded phrasing). Though that is more aimed at other people than you. As I have seen some response here from people who don't seem to apply the same nuance and in one broad stroke disqualify a lot of people in their mind.
I think you’re right, but also, you’re supporting a taboo about saying certain things bluntly. Knowing how to paraphrase to make such expressions acceptable to educated people is a skill, a form...
I think you’re right, but also, you’re supporting a taboo about saying certain things bluntly. Knowing how to paraphrase to make such expressions acceptable to educated people is a skill, a form of cultural competence. Ironically, it’s a skill that the people being complained about often either lack or don’t care to learn.
Either enforcing or breaking such taboos is often a signal about what class you’re in and who you side with.
So, I probably wouldn’t use the word “dumb” that way myself because I don’t want to give a certain impression, but I also don’t think it’s doing a whole lot of harm? It’s probably better to think of it as empirically describing certain behaviors, rather than inherent traits. We all do dumb things sometimes. Some more often than others.
Without knowing what you mean exactly by "a taboo about saying certain things bluntly" I can't really comment on that. It is so broad it can mean anything from being slightly more direct to being...
Without knowing what you mean exactly by "a taboo about saying certain things bluntly" I can't really comment on that. It is so broad it can mean anything from being slightly more direct to being a complete asshole about things because you are no longer trying. In fact, coming from a culture known for being blunt and direct I also know that some people take it as an excuse to do exactly that.
but I also don’t think it’s doing a whole lot of harm?
This I can respond to. You are talking about calling specific actions "dumb things", which is different from calling a person dumb. The former is mostly harmless, the latter is a value statement about their entire person. The latter is the way it was phrased and the context I replied to.
And I think it does do harm. Simply because it influences the way we think about other people and potentially entire groups of people.
Half the population is dumber than average, statistically speaking. The problem is that intelligence is overappreciated by society, which puts intelligent people on an undeserved pedestal and...
Half the population is dumber than average, statistically speaking.
The problem is that intelligence is overappreciated by society, which puts intelligent people on an undeserved pedestal and makes dumb people feel inferior.
If this topic was about running club participation and Carrie said "I changed from a club of fast runners to one of slow ones and it's frustrating to me", would anyone be offended? It's completely understandable and Carrie should be able to share their honest experience, which obviously doesn't mean that slow runners are worse humans in any way.
I think my issue comes from that fact that intelligence is amorphous and not as concrete as running speed? Perhaps I’m biased given my background in psychology (or my adhd). I can see what you’re...
I think my issue comes from that fact that intelligence is amorphous and not as concrete as running speed? Perhaps I’m biased given my background in psychology (or my adhd).
I can see what you’re saying and ultimately I’d probably agree were I in the position.
interestingly, and I hope you don't take this as a jab meant to hurt, I think your field of study and ADHD make you prone to rejection sensitivity, and probably over-explanation. -Another ADHD haver.
interestingly, and I hope you don't take this as a jab meant to hurt, I think your field of study and ADHD make you prone to rejection sensitivity, and probably over-explanation.
I think this is it. I get told my decision making is stupid once or twice a week and I feel that while I didn’t make the same decision as the complainant, I had good reason to make my decision and...
I think this is it. I get told my decision making is stupid once or twice a week and I feel that while I didn’t make the same decision as the complainant, I had good reason to make my decision and it didn’t really make things worse. So reading the original comment I felt sympathy for those being called dumb and wanted to fix my situation by changing your language.
No worries. I think you’ve been raked over the coals enough at this point. I hope you can be compassionate to yourself and let it wash off. Nothing was meant personally here, but it takes time...
No worries. I think you’ve been raked over the coals enough at this point. I hope you can be compassionate to yourself and let it wash off. Nothing was meant personally here, but it takes time getting used to it 🙂
Catching up on this thread, and wanted to say: First to admit that I found your first comment to be negative and it irritated me. Rankled me, perhaps. But as I continued to read the thread and...
Catching up on this thread, and wanted to say: First to admit that I found your first comment to be negative and it irritated me. Rankled me, perhaps. But as I continued to read the thread and refrained from a reply — I wanted to say that I appreciate you speaking up. And I think your comment was legitimately helpful.
I kinda do feel that I encounter a lot of people who are......... well..... thoughtless and uncaring about thinking? I mean, let's set aside judgements of brainpower - I'd argue that whatever they have is not being properly utilized. lol.
And I feel like I'm generally pretty decent at being thougtful and kind. Generally. I know I have blind spots.
So upon reflection, I see your intitial comment more now hopefully in the way it was intended, which was, if we boil it down, a reminder to be kind. At least that was part of your point.
And so, I wanted to specifically speak up and thank you for that.
Also also, even if I am as smart as I think I am (and believe me, I have mixed feelings on that - I know I'm smart in ways, and very very dumb in ways, however one wishes to phrae that), I know I absolutely make bad decisons all the time. And I hate when I do, and I hate especially when people point out when I do. So I wanted to end with just saying: Thank you for your good decision to speak up.
If I've managed to be irritating in any way, please forgive the failing on my part.
I'm into psychology too and I also happen to have ADHD. :) Let me first fully come out of my closet: I actually don't believe in the truth of the above statement at all. Unlike I just said to dear...
I'm into psychology too and I also happen to have ADHD. :)
Let me first fully come out of my closet: I actually don't believe in the truth of the above statement at all. Unlike I just said to dear @sparksbet, I don't think it even approximately true.
Then why did I say so? Because it all comes down to definitions and we could be discussing those all day, but what actually matters in the context of this conversation is @Carrie 's definition. In particular, how they experienced/perceived the intelligence of their colleagues and how that changed when changing jobs. So I cut corners and just used that definition - whatever it happens to be. I don't need to know what exactly it is to assume normal distribution. And I don't need to ascertain that assumption is exactly correct because if it's at least approximately correct, that's already enough for the purposes of the point I was trying to make.
However, if this were a conversation about IQ specifically as it is measured by "standardised" tests, then I'd be staunchly against that same statement. I've seen good evidence that people's results do not actually follow the bell curve and the only reason we believe they do is because the original researcher tampered with his data. I've forgotten all the details by now but here's the presentation if anyone is interested.
This is actually pretty much how I feel. At times I feel we are so obsessed with not hurting anyone’s feelings. Another user discussed going against the taboo of calling things out blatantly— I...
This is actually pretty much how I feel.
At times I feel we are so obsessed with not hurting anyone’s feelings. Another user discussed going against the taboo of calling things out blatantly— I feel that is what I am embodying here. We are also obsessed with considering every single application of our words, thoughts, or feelings; it becomes impossible to wield them in any sort of meaningful way.
I realize now that some people have a knee jerk reaction to feeling judged, when my statements did not come from a place of judgement, merely observation.
I, like you, realize there are forms of rhetoric that involve brevity and condensation. We have to balance expression with being understood.
I cannot control whether someone thinks my making a statement like, “people behave like dumbasses at work” will be taken as a comment on their PERSONALITY or traits. That is on them.
Yep. Personally I try to help dismantle the built-in taboo factors that certain words carry, by using the word itself in a blunt way (it gets people's attention) and then immediately making a...
Yep. Personally I try to help dismantle the built-in taboo factors that certain words carry, by using the word itself in a blunt way (it gets people's attention) and then immediately making a corrective statement such as "being more intelligent doesn't make you a better human". But this isn't always practical, especially if I need to ensure social harmony, because there's always some part of people who get offended.
In that case, it's advisable to refer to people's behaviour rather than their traits, like you did above.
This is irrelevant to the actual discussion and the rest of your comment, but this line always annoys me because it isn't necessarily true, statistically speaking, even when you operate under the...
Half the population is dumber than average, statistically speaking.
This is irrelevant to the actual discussion and the rest of your comment, but this line always annoys me because it isn't necessarily true, statistically speaking, even when you operate under the assumption that intelligence is directly quantifiable like this in the first place.
Most people equate "average" with the mean, and there are plenty of statistical distributions in which far fewer than half the population is below the mean -- even in a roughly normal distribution, you can have significant outliers shift the mean in such a way that less than half the population is below average. Even if you use the median and assume a normal distribution, which gets you closest to this being true, unless you're able to be infinitely precise in how you quantify intelligence, you will almost certainly have multiple individuals with intelligence of the same value as the median intelligence -- which entails that less than half the population has an intelligence below that value.
I could have said that myself, with one difference: the statement doesn't annoy me. Plenty of statements exist that are only approximately true but still useful in conveying a message. I'm willing...
I could have said that myself, with one difference: the statement doesn't annoy me. Plenty of statements exist that are only approximately true but still useful in conveying a message.
I'm willing to consider using a different statement in the future that conveys the same message in a way that at least as many people are able to understand, if you can suggest one.
ETA: To make matters even more confusing, see this comment!
I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments. One area I cover is occ health and safety. A lot of manufacturing is has significant risk...
I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments.
One area I cover is occ health and safety. A lot of manufacturing is has significant risk of personal harm. It is imperative that dumb behaviors are highlighted, called out, and shamed. I've seen people lose appendages and worst for really dumb reasons. Don't be dumb, lock out/tag out before sticking your body in the "crushinator 5000."
Yeah, manufacturing jobs are safer than they used to be but it’s still an environment that can be wildly dangerous. Even with good procedures and PPE, fatal or life altering accidents can easily...
Yeah, manufacturing jobs are safer than they used to be but it’s still an environment that can be wildly dangerous. Even with good procedures and PPE, fatal or life altering accidents can easily happen if people are tired, distracted, etc.
Don't be dumb, lock out/tag out before sticking your body in the "crushinator 5000."
I’ll add to this: be really sure that you know what you’re doing and are licensed/trained before you touch that 480v electrical panel.
I can't tell what your "this" refers to in the statement:"I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments." because the comment thread is...
I can't tell what your "this" refers to in the statement:"I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments." because the comment thread is too deep lol.
If what I say below to you doesn't apply, I apologize.
Sometimes the issue is that the system is totally fucked up though, even in high-stakes environments.
I don't know if you've watched "Chernobyl", but in that series, one of the huge "fatal flaws" is that their equipment did not have the range to actually measure the levels of radiation accurately. The second major flaw is leadership behaving with such arrogance and conflicts of interest so great, they could not see past their own hubris to make the safest decisions.
I would argue that, if you are taught to use the detector, even if you are the best user of the detector, but do not know how the detector works or its limitations, you will still fall victim to misuse of it, and inherently dangerous or otherwise grossly misguided situations.
Honestly, this difference is kind of what I'm talking about in high intellectual positions vs. not--or, for more sensitive wording, situations where critical thinking and curiosity are not the priority.
The best mechanic in the world can know how to use a machine, but he may not know how it works and thus troubleshoot it or know its limitations. If the person were educated enough to know their own limitations, and empowered enough to ask for and receive help, then we have no problem.
But that is not often the case, in my experience, in these positions; People would rather double down on their perceived position of power (being the person wielding the tool). People would rather seek out their own ease and comfort (understandably), before rocking the boat; They tell themselves -"Surely, someone else would have done something if what I was doing was so wrong or dangerous," or, more commonly, "it's not my job to make X decision, my job is to act out X decision."
Many positions, in any profession at this point, are about unquestioning obedience and self-serving behavior, and that, does not foster an environment of critical thinking or curiosity, which, I'm aware, I sound like a broken record, but there is no other way to say it.
Examples in Science, to round out my viewpoints--it's not just manufacturing or other "blue collar" jobs
The following examples are more examples of people doing dumb things, some of whom have PhDs from highly regarded institutions.
-Lab associates that use their hands to activate an air curtain shield to stop a machine from operating, instead of using the button on the computer, because it saves time, or because the button doesn't always work, I don't know the full reasons, but that blatant disregard comes from all kinds of things. I assume one of those things is not realizing that your hand will literally be chopped off if that air curtain fails. Or "it won't happen to me."
-Scientists looking directly down the barrel of a laser to figure out if it is working...I won't even explain this one.
-People disposing of sharps in non-sharps containers. People not realizing that not all sharps are metal or glass, looking at you, pipette tips.
Honestly, it happens everywhere--blue collar, white collar, grey collar--and this thread is making me realize the lack of curiosity combined with, if I had to guess, not feeling like your curiosity matters (even if you bring up the issue, someone may not help you fix it, so what's the point), is the real problem. But I stand by my assertions, that the proportion of people you run into, at your job, that are "like this", is higher, depending on the profession/environment.
In my post "this" referred to the pushback you received using the word "dumb." I'd never use it in a learning context. I absolutely will call someone dumb if their behavior is endangering...
In my post "this" referred to the pushback you received using the word "dumb." I'd never use it in a learning context. I absolutely will call someone dumb if their behavior is endangering themselves or others.
I feel this entire conversation is beating around the bush for no particular reason. Some people are dealt a bad hand at birth and have some serious cognitive challenges. You'd overwhelmingly find...
I feel this entire conversation is beating around the bush for no particular reason. Some people are dealt a bad hand at birth and have some serious cognitive challenges. You'd overwhelmingly find those folks at jobs that do not require strong reasoning skills and require rote, unthinking manual labour instead.
There is no sleight or judgement towards anyone by saying that.
I didn't want to single you out and respond to you specifically, I just got to the end of the entire chain and figured I might as well respond here.
Yeah 100%. The workforce I help manage is highly diverse across any slice you'd want to make. Literacy is not a given; you could have a refugee doctor who just isn't sharp on her English working...
Yeah 100%. The workforce I help manage is highly diverse across any slice you'd want to make. Literacy is not a given; you could have a refugee doctor who just isn't sharp on her English working alongside an American who didn't finish elementary school.
That's a really weird way of saying "we need slaves to make labor-intensive goods for our population to buy." There will never be global parity in quality of life until there is a global minimum wage.
And so this wage issue raises the question of whether many manufacturers, particularly labor-intensive ones, can be profitable and globally competitive in the United States.
That's a really weird way of saying "we need slaves to make labor-intensive goods for our population to buy."
There will never be global parity in quality of life until there is a global minimum wage.
I don’t think this is how comparative advantage works. Goods in the U.S. are expensive, in part because of a high density of capital owners and high-skill laborers, and in part because of the...
There will never be global parity in quality of life until there is a global minimum wage.
I don’t think this is how comparative advantage works.
Goods in the U.S. are expensive, in part because of a high density of capital owners and high-skill laborers, and in part because of the dollar’s status as the global reserve currency.
I’ve heard many economists say something along the lines of “laborers in countries with weaker economies and weaker currencies can get far more QOL benefit than U.S. workers for the same pay” when criticizing the president’s “plan” to bring back U.S. manufacturing. In other words, manufacturing will be cheaper in countries where workers are willing to work for less pay in raw dollars.
Unequal distribution of resources will always cause different places to have different strengths. This means that different wages will map to different qualities of life in different parts of the globe, probably forever. Thus, different parts of the globe will have different economic strengths and weaknesses (therefore, comparative advantage).
For example, cooks and service workers that live near coastal towns with nice weather will likely always make more money than the same careers anywhere else, but their cost of living will also be higher due to the relatively higher demand for living in that area. We can absolutely achieve global parity in quality of life without global parity in wages.
That will require additional investment and development in countries that don’t currently have a high quality of life.
I'm not disputing that regional differences will result in differing costs of living. I am rejecting this, though: I'm not saying "all coal miners should be paid $200 an hour." I am saying that...
I'm not disputing that regional differences will result in differing costs of living. I am rejecting this, though:
We can absolutely achieve global parity in quality of life without global parity in wages.
I'm not saying "all coal miners should be paid $200 an hour." I am saying that worldwide, all wages should be within a standard deviation or two from each other. Somebody doing "low skill" labor like fast food work should have more or less equal buying power on a global market. But as things currently stand, the primary reason goods get shipped across the world and back for refinement and manufacturing has more to do with being able to exploit a given area's lower CoL to pay disproportionately less.
There should be global minimum and maximum wages. It will set a natural cap on how high CoL will go, and a floor for exploitation.
I do understand this is not a feasible thing to implement given the current state of the world. It would require a much stronger UN, with a country's voting power directly proportional to its population.
I mean.. that's either impossible or a tautology. Morally I like the idea. But how does this get implemented while respecting the sovereignty of nations? Sure you could get some kind of treaty of...
I am saying that worldwide, all wages should be within a standard deviation or two from each other.
I mean.. that's either impossible or a tautology.
Morally I like the idea. But how does this get implemented while respecting the sovereignty of nations? Sure you could get some kind of treaty of trade pact, but I'm not sure how enforceable it is.
Personally, I don't. If the goods and services are global, so should the rules and regulations that govern their existence. In that same vein: People should be as free (or more so) to move as...
respecting the sovereignty of nations
Personally, I don't. If the goods and services are global, so should the rules and regulations that govern their existence.
In that same vein: People should be as free (or more so) to move as goods. There should be no such thing as "illegal" immigration.
huh... I wouldn't really endorse a worldview where moving a person is as easy as any good. But I would also believe that if people wants to self organize into a nation towards the ends of self...
huh... I wouldn't really endorse a worldview where moving a person is as easy as any good.
But I would also believe that if people wants to self organize into a nation towards the ends of self determination; some measures of sovereignty should be afforded.
That's why they invented localities. It would function much like the USA or the EU: Autonomous local governance beholden to the laws of the world. I would be curious to know why you feel people...
That's why they invented localities. It would function much like the USA or the EU: Autonomous local governance beholden to the laws of the world.
I would be curious to know why you feel people shouldn't be free to move as desired, with little more than identifying their residence.
Would it be immoral to have a bunch of armed thugs that shoot you on sight if you try to leave your town? If so, why is it acceptable when the border is larger?
I do support free movement of people. But I don't equate that as the same as movement of goods; when I think of people moving as easily as any good I think of chattel slavery.
I would be curious to know why you feel people shouldn't be free to move as desired, with little more than identifying their residence.
I do support free movement of people. But I don't equate that as the same as movement of goods; when I think of people moving as easily as any good I think of chattel slavery.
I've been hearing some more Mikhail Bakunin lately and it's fun to see someone at least somewhat resembling the anarcho-collectivist arguments of the time. I'm not sure how true that is for your...
I've been hearing some more Mikhail Bakunin lately and it's fun to see someone at least somewhat resembling the anarcho-collectivist arguments of the time.
I'm not sure how true that is for your overall worldview, and I don't want to assume, but I felt the coincidence was interesting enough to point out.
While likely inspired by, one of my inspirational sources was openborders.info. They've got an aggregate of pretty solid arguments in favor of open borders from almost any moral perspective. Looks...
While likely inspired by, one of my inspirational sources was openborders.info. They've got an aggregate of pretty solid arguments in favor of open borders from almost any moral perspective.
Looks like you've given me more reading material.
Bakunin saw the institutions of church and state as standing against the aims of emancipatory community, namely that they impose wisdom and justice from above under the pretense that the masses could not fully self-govern. He wrote that "to exploit and to govern mean the same thing".
He's a great radical anarchist. He thinks that liberty only exists if everyone is free. If only a few people have liberty, then liberty does not exist. Only privilege exists. Church and state are...
He's a great radical anarchist. He thinks that liberty only exists if everyone is free. If only a few people have liberty, then liberty does not exist. Only privilege exists. Church and state are included in this, and the ideal is a federalist commune structure (a la Paris Commune) where everyone is at all times free to leave or join, as long as they provide through labour. Of which they all collectively reap the rewards. So... No borders.
I like his idealist look on freedom, but strongly disagree with his anarcho-collectivist methods. If there are any real methods to implement this to speak of.
He was the political and philosophical rival of Marx, alive during the same period and clashed often during the meetings of the First International.
A properly run democracy, with proper representation, at a global level would likely do the trick. Is the EU completely ineffectual? The UN would be much more effective if it weren't for the USA...
A properly run democracy, with proper representation, at a global level would likely do the trick. Is the EU completely ineffectual? The UN would be much more effective if it weren't for the USA basically having veto power over everything.
The problem, as usual, is getting there from here. Especially when it goes directly against the interests of the people most able to make that happen. It would require the human race to collectively decide to drop the competitiveness and cooperate for the common good.
I wager this only occurs in the event of cataclysmic fall of society via climate change or nuclear war necessitating the survivors work together in ways previously unfathomable.
...A conservative think tank says wages are too low.
This is one reason Oren Cass, the chief economist and founder of American Compass, a conservative think tank, says he's skeptical whenever employers complain about worker shortages.
" I have less than zero sympathy for employers who go around complaining about labor shortages and skills gaps," Cass says. He jokes that he has a side hustle running an "incredibly innovative" biotech firm. "It employs leading scientists at $10 an hour to develop extraordinary cures. I have 500,000 job openings as well, and I have not been able to fill one of them."
...A conservative think tank says wages are too low.
Every machine on the shop floor is hooked up to something like Ignition or some other brand (this is not any kind of suggestion that it's a good product, just one I have worked with a lot and kind of hate). These all monitor every last tiny bit of the production floor and turn them into nice pretty graphs that alert 6 different people as soon your cycle time is off by a second because you sneezed. Those 6 people will all request documentation on what happened to cause the downtime, and you will hear all 6 people explain how the cycle times are very important to making sure that the downstream processes stay at 100% capacity all the time.
Of course, with manufacturing jobs being in relative demand, you can walk across the street for the exact same pay. Employers know that, so they have incentives for you to stay at the same place for a while. They might have a 401k vesting scheme that you get fully set after three years of employment or something. During that three years, you watch as the pay of new people walking in the door goes up dollars while your pay goes up 3.5% per year and there's no room in the budget for yours to go up.
The second there is any kind of upswing, you need to take the totally optional overtime that is absolutely not optional and you'll hear about it in your review if you aren't a team player. The second there's a downswing, you are laid off without pay for a couple of weeks. You might think that you could try to level off that curve, but that's not lean. Inventory is the devil. We have to react fast because we sold our shelves to pay for this monitoring software.
Oh, and I almost forgot - your anniversary is on November 2? You will never be able to take that day off because it happens to be John's birthday and he always takes his birthday off. Thanks to him being here three weeks longer than you, he gets seniority dibs on vacation. We are just so lean and efficient that two people attempting to schedule time off on the same line eight months ahead is just not something that can be worked around. Don't worry, as soon as John retires you will have dibs on that day.
Manufacturing jobs suck. I worked two weeks in an ice cream factory and that was enough to do whatever I could to stay far away.
Many Americans have this rose colored view of manufacturing as if there’s something magical about manufacturing that creates good jobs you can support a middle class family on.
Except the reason manufacturing jobs were “good jobs” 50 years so was because they were so shit beforehand that they were all unionized. That’s the magic.
A union McDonald’s job in Denmark is a far better paying “good job” than a non-union manufacturing job in Alabama.
Yeah, exactly. The only people with a real desire to return to manufacturing work are middle aged or older, who use to have manufacturing jobs. Maybe some youngsters have a romanticized view of manufacturing, but it's far and few between. What 20 year old is aiming for work for a factory their rest of the lives?
The ones I know who've done (shiny and new) factory work locally say that the company treats people poorly. They hired a lot of folks then laid a lot of people off, moved shifts and hours around and that's not even getting into whatever concerns employees had day to day.
They are unsurprisingly, non-union
Counter point. A friend just told me about Walmart shelf stocker health benefits and it's made me consider whether quitting my well paying job make sense for my family. In seriousness, because family needs extended health. They're talking about thousands per year per category as opposed to 500.
Counter counter point, if a job offers great benefits but is easy to get because it has high turnover because the only people that stay there long term are there solely for the benefits, there's probably a long list of cons to that pro.
It almost certainly makes more sense to try and move at least laterally in your current career and negotiate for better benefits at a new company.
I'm in the unglamorous side of tech / software. There is no such thing as negotiations.
Yeah, I don't know if I have it in me to look for new work if this one goes, or if it'll be any good in terms of salary plus benefits n
I obviously don't know where you're at, but I've been bottom tier tech support too. Go for positions you think you can stretch to, specialize. I've never had a job get better, but using it as a stepping stone is definitely possible. Experience is worth a lot.
Probably not helpful to you, but in case you find yourself in need, give a look at Colonial Williamsburg. Pay isn't that great, but not bad compared to Walmart, I'd bet. But people stay because of the insurance. I can personally attest that it's good and we have good medical around here (Sentara and Riverside both). And while there is some stupid politics, imho, it's nowhere near the crap level of a place like Walmart.
Thanks, Daychilde, I hope your comment helps another American who needs a good job and good benefits :) [ gonna stay in Canada, though]
Forgot that detail.
Pardon my English, but Fuck the USA. lol. As a replacement for an entire rant on the topic. heh.
There is a lot of truth here, but there’s also a lot of bad management practices on display. I also work in manufacturing, and have had positions on the shop floor, eventually up to a global leadership role in a medium-large company. I’ve deployed lots of tools like Ignition and others.
I have absolutely seen what you’re talking about - production managers who think that they are the rulers of the world because they have a modicum of power, and who treat people like they’re machines. I have also seen some really great ones who are loved by the sites they manage.
Unsurprisingly, it’s the latter who tend to perform better for the business in a broad sense. Turns out, when you treat people well and like they’re adults they tend to both appreciate you and enjoy their work more - which leads to better outcomes for everyone.
A really significant problem I see is that one bad leader (and worse, a series of them) can cause incredible amounts of damage that persists long after they leave the company. Even if their successor is pretty decent, the culture at the factory has been poisoned by mistrust and fear. It can take many years for a site to recover from that and get back to a place of mutual respect and trust. Sometimes they never fully make it there.
The software tools are not really a problem, how they are being used is a problem. If a human sneezing (I know that was mostly hyperbole, but also that it’s sort of not) can cause a significant enough variation that it’s noticeable financially, you’re using the wrong manufacturing process and/or have insufficient process controls.
Bad process design is never the machinist/operator/assembler’s fault - it’s a manufacturing engineering issue. They should be using the data from those tools to improve the process, not berate people.
I could go on about this for ages. I love manufacturing, and I get deeply frustrated by the, frankly, morons I see put in positions of power in some factories. They are almost always the real problem, not the folks on the shop floor who are doing most of the actual work.
Of course the technology isn't the root problem - tools are rarely inherently good or bad. My issue is that they really allow the bad management to make bad decisions faster with the explanation of being "data driven decisions".
To be clear, I love manufacturing. Seeing the differences between an old acme screw machines and the modern CNC driven stuff with 18 axis movement is amazing.
Manufacturing just has a tendency to put the absolute worst people in positions of power at the expense of everyone around them.
It doesn’t help that data literacy among those types of managers tends to be pretty poor in general. The amount of time I’ve had to spend explaining the basics of what a common metric (e.g. OEE or Cpk/Ppk) really means to people who ought to know better is frustrating, to put it lightly. Or (repeatedly) explaining why measuring only one aspect of production is a bad idea, because without proper context you’ll incentivize corner cutting and have major blind spots…
There seems to be some pervasive idea that you can just plug metrics into a magic formula that can make the right decisions for you. They seem to always miss the implication that, if that were true, we could just cut out that layer of management entirely. The ability to consistently make good judgement calls based on available data + experience is supposed to be a key criteria for leadership, and yet is frequently absent from the skill set.
You never go full Office Space.
Speaking of Office Space. This is the beginning of the move - very first thing we see - the establishing shot of freeway, before we see actors.
It's on I-635 just west of the interchange with the Dallas North Tollway.
The camera was set around here, looking along the arrow, generally: https://ieh.im/s/firefox_AxciLRzUNB.png
If you were to be able to look back over the camera's left shoulder - today - it would look like this: https://ieh.im/s/firefox_Ic6oL0MViP.png
I worked in that building on the 4th and 6th floors in 1996-1997, at a company called Stream, International as Tier I tech support - first for CompuServe, then for HP DeskJet printers.
I do still remember the first time I saw that movie. It started and I was like,"Wait, what? Go back! Go back!!" lol
So I already had a soft spot for that movie from the start, and it is a favorite :)
I'm also all but certain that the printer-bashing scene was somewhere in Las Colinas, which is also in the Metroplex - I know they did some filming around there, at least. And that looks like that area :)
That was cathartic. Thank you.
I'm posting this article to ~life, and not ~society or ~finance, because I'm coming at it from an individual's perspective. We're feeling and witnessing plenty of doom and gloom about AI replacing jobs, and then I saw this NPR article, and it gave me some hope that it's not going to be the cyberpunk dystopia people often paint, and there will still be demand for high skilled and high paying jobs.
My partner and I talk about the future a lot, and we've mused about re-skilling to new industries, now I'm gradually letting the reality set in, that at least one of us may have to take that plunge, and it's scary, but it doesn't seem that bad, more I think about it
Is there anyone on Tildes that has transitioned to the manufacturing industry, whether in the US or otherwise, and who cares to share their experience? Is it going to be hard for older folk to get into it, I'm guessing by apprenticeship, compared to a young high school or college grad? Are the manufacturing hubs more or less evenly spread across the US, or are there hot spots?
I transitioned from a high intellectual job to an entry level service job, where the minimum requirement is a GED.
The issue that cannot be overstated enough is how fucking BORING it is. And also, if you had even a slight feeling of how dumb some of the people were who you previously worked with, you will be astounded at how dumb most of the new people you will work with are.
You will see first hand how bad the degradation of critical thinking skills and genuine void of curiosity there is in the world.
Another poster summarized how micromanaged you are and how messed up the pay scheme is. It’s one thing to be micromanaged by someone who is intellectually your peer, it’s another to be micromanaged by someone who is incompetent. A lot of these places also attract/hire power trippers and gatekeepers - obsessions with hierarchy. You will hear people who legitimately believe “if you can lean, you can clean” and despite them saying this everyday for their entire lives, still say it with a shit eating grin on their faces like it’s the cleverest thing anyone has ever said — because in their little kingdom - it is.
I like the reduced pressure and feeling of direct results from my actions that is present these days. In some ways there is also more camaraderie (trauma bonding and all, but also genuine interconnectedness from immediate cause and effect and empathy that comes from shared jobs). But I will not continue to do it, and I’ve only been doing it for like six months. The monotony and being led by idiots is mind stabbing.
On the other hand, It did work for my dad, but that is because he has other purposes in life and can truly compartmentalize his work life from his personal life. He also fulfilled a lot of his life as an engineer before making this transition, this is something he did post -50yrs old. He went from being an engineer to a candle maker on a factory line. He loves it and makes really good money. But he lives alone and dedicates all his spare time to his family and self learning. He has weird hours and is kinda the stereotypical man who won’t seek medical treatment for preventative care. He seems very healthy, but I’m not sure everyone’s body can take it.
I think these are pretty key. If a job is really truly just a job, and if the stupidity can be laughed off, it really isn't bad at all. I'm not here to disrupt or be lean or be part of a family or whatever. I'm here to dip candles in hot wax then go home and enjoy the money and benefits, and I don't care about whatever society thinks about my job because it doesn't say anything about me as a person.
A lot of kids temp jobs are like that: it's not their whole life, it's not their whole life, and there's a lot more to look forward to after clocking out.
In my teens, I worked, as many do, in fast food for a while.
We moved and I applied for jobs; got hired at Taco Bell.
Showed up for the first day. Didn't have any problem doing the food prep stuff. Didn't have any problem cleaning. Somewhere in there, got my lunch break. Came back from lunch, no prep work needed, so more cleaning. Didn't have any problem with that.
We ran out of things to clean. So manager said, "Great! Let's start the cleaning process over!"
and THAT i had a problem with.
Fuck that noise. I didn't mind work - working hard. But not that shit. Busywork? No. No thanks.
I put in four days notice, i.e. I'd work through the end of the week, but that was it. heh.
It reminds me of stories of people who were doing their service in the Army:
"I had leaders tell me to move this pile of rocks from here to there in the middle of the desert, just to give me something to do."
Over and over again, just to justify existence, under the guise of purpose.
And then really mean leaders get mad if you lengthen out how long it takes you to move the rocks. Even though it is a natural response, to slow down the task, because you know, if I finish moving these rocks quickly, you're going to ask me to move them again!
These mindsets are everywhere in modern America, and it really makes some work, unbearable.
This feels extremely rude reading it. I’m reminded that if you judge a fish’s intelligence by how well it can climb a tree, you’ll go your whole life thinking fish are stupid.
I’ve felt like the smartest person in the room before, but that’s for the task at hand. Maybe these folk are intelligent in other ways that you just don’t see at work?
This is going to sound rough, but some people are just flat out dumber than others and one would expect a low-requirements job to have a greater proportion of them than an engineering firm (or other high-requirements job).
I see your point, even agree with it, except for framing it as "dumber" as that very specifically is overly broad demeaning term about overall intelligence. A lot of people that are seen as "dumb" simply have been dealth different cards in live with hugely different experiences that have shaped them and often limits their perspective.
In the context of this thread, some people really will have a lower overall intelligence making it a challenge to learn them new things. For others, it is more a lack of common sense that they simply have never been taught and likely never will be given all sorts of factors.
I am not writing this from a perspective where I am trying to say that with some patience and understanding they all can change. No, again, the behaviors are still incredibly frustrating to work with I just think that dumbing it down (pun intended) to people being "dumb" is ...
dumbnot a good mindset either.You're often going to find me in threads on Tildes defending aspects of blue collar life, as I've worked as a mechanic, a welder, and other trades over the years, and you will find a wide variety of folks that don't conform to stereotypes.
That being said- @carrie (and @tannhauser) are not exaggerating. At all. Yes, you will find interesting people, and they will show up in interesting places!
They are not going to be the majority, and the bottom of the bell curve is going to be well-represented in low skill jobs.
I've worked in four tech orgs the past ~10 years. Before that, ~14 years working in kitchens, boat yards, and a short time at a locksmith shop. I very much agree.
Edit: Apparently I'm one of the idiots. About 12 years. Not 14.
It’s always felt arrogant to me for someone to announce their perceived higher level of intelligence.
And I can’t help but question if everyone feels that way? Like are @Carrie’s coworkers also said “sheesh they’re annoyingly dumb”?
I actually accept that someone might think I’m dumb as well. But I am confident in my own abilities to recognize or question when I may be engaging in ignorant behavior, a sign of intelligence, imo. Of course I make mistakes all the time.
Also to be clear, I never said that I was smarter than everyone else, I claimed that someone may be shocked at how dumb their co workers are compared to the coworkers they had before. It’s a subtle difference, but I think it is worth mentioning.
I get it. People make mistakes. People are apathetic. People don’t always have enough time to do the “best job” or the “right thing”. People aren’t “paid enough to care” etc. But some people also just literally lack critical thinking skills and have probably had their innate curiosity beaten out of them. I also think you will run into more people that have absolutely 0 compassion or empathy left, because that has also been used against them/beaten out of them.
So I hope you trust me that I have given people the benefit of the doubt, but watched them let me down time and again, and that in my experience, the lack of curiosity and lack of critical thinking skills is a big part of it.
Even witnessing the customers is a big strain mentally. I fully understand now how COVID absolutely wrecked this country. I watch people lick their hands then count money/open plastic bags, then lick their hands again. People have no semblance of personal space either. People coughing or sneezing violently into the ether or their hand and then using a pin pad. Within the company, When I ask for even simple PPE (masks to wear while sweeping for example) I am told we don’t need them because it’s not dusty (can’t see visible dust ? Which is also inaccurate) when I ask for ear ppe for a very loud air compressor, “no one else has asked for this before/uses one”.
You may also have nothing in common because you often have to dumb down your language or talk about really banal things. Which again, is fine, we don’t have to be best friends at work, but it does make the jobs really boring. It also makes it hard to have common ground to explain things — I have no common ground to explain to people why we should use ppe- without becoming an entire lecturer and even then you’re met with glassy eyes and it’s exhausting. If you leave out explanation and say - it’s for safety, and you should at least provide it for people who want it regardless of your personal opinions, well, then you get into the gatekeepers/authoritarian crap. People at these jobs in positions of authority do not like being questioned, they do not act from places of good faith. It’s why I only recommend it for people who can compartmentalize.
Since my past jobs were in high levels of science, I hope you can understand that witnessing the blatant disregard for germ theory and other ppe disregards, coupled with the arrogance that they know better from their completely unsubstantiated claims, hits hard and leads me to the generalization that I think many people coming from a highly intellectual field, will be disappointed, at the very least
I’m curious if your experiences have been different.
Oooo fair point. I did read this the other way.
Spend time working with a genuinely unintelligent population, and you will no longer wonder that. If this sounds harsh and unfair, consider yourself blessed that you haven't had to come to terms with working in such an environment, and I mean that honestly, and without negative judgement.
What’s irking me is that I’m on the other side of the experience most weeks. And I’m not a fan of being called dumb or stupid just because someone doesn’t take the time to realize there is more than one right way to do stuff. But as I said to @carrie “that’s a me problem, sorry for projecting”
My comment is about tolerating people at work. I don’t know these people outside of work. Of course I don’t think everyone at my job is dumb 100% of the time, as I cannot know that.
What I am saying, is they are dumb at work. Like dumb enough to leave a cash drawer unattended, dumb. Dumb enough to want to play police when we are told not to chase suspected shoplifters. Dumb enough to not understand you cannot discuss someone’s race and other features over the microphone to target them for shoplifting. Dumb enough to talk about this loudly without shame. Dumb enough to stock an item next to another item instead of check to see if the barcodes match and stock them on the same peg. I really could go on all day. These are repeated behaviors over and over that are enabled by managers. So you are really surrounded by idiots, or for a better word, incompetent people at times.
If I sounded rude, it wasn’t my intention, tone is hard to convey online.
I responded elsewhere, personally I think the choice word "dumb" might not be as helpful. As you said, it is more a lack of overall work competence or common sense skills.
Having said that, having worked a lot of different jobs during college and right out of college I can confirm what you are saying. Which is not a US specific, though I suspect some of it might be worse in the US compared to my experience due to differences in the education system and (lack of) worker protection laws.
But, for me, the experience was bad enough that once I got into my current field of working it took me years before I was able to trust managers and coworkers again. Because I was always looking for the sort of micromanaged power plays I was so used to in these previous jobs.
I guess that is also why I am having an issue with the phrasing of "dumb". In many cases I wonder if it isn't simply that people stopped caring about even basic stuff. Because, in their mind, it doesn't matter anyway and they have been in the system for so long that they mentally checked out.
That’s a fair criticism. And after some pondering from your comment and @sunbutt23 comment. I could choose kinder words in the future. Tbh it’s a sign of my own apathy and burnout.
I hope from my rebuttal to their comment you can see I do have a deeper understanding of the forces that be, and do have compassion for people I struggle to work with.
But in the future, I will consider my word choices a bit more.
I hope people can understand that sometimes on the internet word choice is not as serious as it seems. It’s interesting to me that people are willing to be called “intellectually limited” or “lower level of intelligence”(which is worse imo, since it is comparative) or something instead of “dumb”, when I feel many of those other words are coded as “smart person’s word for dumb people.” I suppose the long phrase “lack of critical thinking skills and lack of curiosity” or “ignorant” are other choices.
Beyond all of that noise- you bring up another point, relevant to the parent comment degradation of trust and falling into the mindset of figuring out if what you’re being asked to do truly has purpose and meaning vs. being some weird power play, weighs on your body and mind…
All fair :) Like I said, I fully understand where you are coming from.
For sure, it was clear to me that for you, it was clear it was written with more nuance in mind. But I can also see how it doesn't come across to some other people.
I'd also apply the same to someone talking about intelligence levels. In a different comment the difference in my mind is more about calling it "dumb behavior" vs calling people dumb (or other coded phrasing). Though that is more aimed at other people than you. As I have seen some response here from people who don't seem to apply the same nuance and in one broad stroke disqualify a lot of people in their mind.
I think you’re right, but also, you’re supporting a taboo about saying certain things bluntly. Knowing how to paraphrase to make such expressions acceptable to educated people is a skill, a form of cultural competence. Ironically, it’s a skill that the people being complained about often either lack or don’t care to learn.
Either enforcing or breaking such taboos is often a signal about what class you’re in and who you side with.
So, I probably wouldn’t use the word “dumb” that way myself because I don’t want to give a certain impression, but I also don’t think it’s doing a whole lot of harm? It’s probably better to think of it as empirically describing certain behaviors, rather than inherent traits. We all do dumb things sometimes. Some more often than others.
Without knowing what you mean exactly by "a taboo about saying certain things bluntly" I can't really comment on that. It is so broad it can mean anything from being slightly more direct to being a complete asshole about things because you are no longer trying. In fact, coming from a culture known for being blunt and direct I also know that some people take it as an excuse to do exactly that.
This I can respond to. You are talking about calling specific actions "dumb things", which is different from calling a person dumb. The former is mostly harmless, the latter is a value statement about their entire person. The latter is the way it was phrased and the context I replied to.
And I think it does do harm. Simply because it influences the way we think about other people and potentially entire groups of people.
See also my other comment.
Half the population is dumber than average, statistically speaking.
The problem is that intelligence is overappreciated by society, which puts intelligent people on an undeserved pedestal and makes dumb people feel inferior.
If this topic was about running club participation and Carrie said "I changed from a club of fast runners to one of slow ones and it's frustrating to me", would anyone be offended? It's completely understandable and Carrie should be able to share their honest experience, which obviously doesn't mean that slow runners are worse humans in any way.
I think my issue comes from that fact that intelligence is amorphous and not as concrete as running speed? Perhaps I’m biased given my background in psychology (or my adhd).
I can see what you’re saying and ultimately I’d probably agree were I in the position.
interestingly, and I hope you don't take this as a jab meant to hurt, I think your field of study and ADHD make you prone to rejection sensitivity, and probably over-explanation.
-Another ADHD haver.
I think this is it. I get told my decision making is stupid once or twice a week and I feel that while I didn’t make the same decision as the complainant, I had good reason to make my decision and it didn’t really make things worse. So reading the original comment I felt sympathy for those being called dumb and wanted to fix my situation by changing your language.
Sorry for projecting. @carrie on.
No worries. I think you’ve been raked over the coals enough at this point. I hope you can be compassionate to yourself and let it wash off. Nothing was meant personally here, but it takes time getting used to it 🙂
Catching up on this thread, and wanted to say: First to admit that I found your first comment to be negative and it irritated me. Rankled me, perhaps. But as I continued to read the thread and refrained from a reply — I wanted to say that I appreciate you speaking up. And I think your comment was legitimately helpful.
I kinda do feel that I encounter a lot of people who are......... well..... thoughtless and uncaring about thinking? I mean, let's set aside judgements of brainpower - I'd argue that whatever they have is not being properly utilized. lol.
And I feel like I'm generally pretty decent at being thougtful and kind. Generally. I know I have blind spots.
So upon reflection, I see your intitial comment more now hopefully in the way it was intended, which was, if we boil it down, a reminder to be kind. At least that was part of your point.
And so, I wanted to specifically speak up and thank you for that.
Also also, even if I am as smart as I think I am (and believe me, I have mixed feelings on that - I know I'm smart in ways, and very very dumb in ways, however one wishes to phrae that), I know I absolutely make bad decisons all the time. And I hate when I do, and I hate especially when people point out when I do. So I wanted to end with just saying: Thank you for your good decision to speak up.
If I've managed to be irritating in any way, please forgive the failing on my part.
As someone with RSD who was not involved at all in this conversation: SCREW YOU
(but I am just kidding <3 )
I'm into psychology too and I also happen to have ADHD. :)
Let me first fully come out of my closet:
I actually don't believe in the truth of the above statement at all. Unlike I just said to dear @sparksbet, I don't think it even approximately true.
Then why did I say so? Because it all comes down to definitions and we could be discussing those all day, but what actually matters in the context of this conversation is @Carrie 's definition. In particular, how they experienced/perceived the intelligence of their colleagues and how that changed when changing jobs. So I cut corners and just used that definition - whatever it happens to be. I don't need to know what exactly it is to assume normal distribution. And I don't need to ascertain that assumption is exactly correct because if it's at least approximately correct, that's already enough for the purposes of the point I was trying to make.
However, if this were a conversation about IQ specifically as it is measured by "standardised" tests, then I'd be staunchly against that same statement. I've seen good evidence that people's results do not actually follow the bell curve and the only reason we believe they do is because the original researcher tampered with his data. I've forgotten all the details by now but here's the presentation if anyone is interested.
This is actually pretty much how I feel.
At times I feel we are so obsessed with not hurting anyone’s feelings. Another user discussed going against the taboo of calling things out blatantly— I feel that is what I am embodying here. We are also obsessed with considering every single application of our words, thoughts, or feelings; it becomes impossible to wield them in any sort of meaningful way.
I realize now that some people have a knee jerk reaction to feeling judged, when my statements did not come from a place of judgement, merely observation.
I, like you, realize there are forms of rhetoric that involve brevity and condensation. We have to balance expression with being understood.
I cannot control whether someone thinks my making a statement like, “people behave like dumbasses at work” will be taken as a comment on their PERSONALITY or traits. That is on them.
Yep. Personally I try to help dismantle the built-in taboo factors that certain words carry, by using the word itself in a blunt way (it gets people's attention) and then immediately making a corrective statement such as "being more intelligent doesn't make you a better human". But this isn't always practical, especially if I need to ensure social harmony, because there's always some part of people who get offended.
In that case, it's advisable to refer to people's behaviour rather than their traits, like you did above.
This is irrelevant to the actual discussion and the rest of your comment, but this line always annoys me because it isn't necessarily true, statistically speaking, even when you operate under the assumption that intelligence is directly quantifiable like this in the first place.
Most people equate "average" with the mean, and there are plenty of statistical distributions in which far fewer than half the population is below the mean -- even in a roughly normal distribution, you can have significant outliers shift the mean in such a way that less than half the population is below average. Even if you use the median and assume a normal distribution, which gets you closest to this being true, unless you're able to be infinitely precise in how you quantify intelligence, you will almost certainly have multiple individuals with intelligence of the same value as the median intelligence -- which entails that less than half the population has an intelligence below that value.
I could have said that myself, with one difference: the statement doesn't annoy me. Plenty of statements exist that are only approximately true but still useful in conveying a message.
I'm willing to consider using a different statement in the future that conveys the same message in a way that at least as many people are able to understand, if you can suggest one.
ETA: To make matters even more confusing, see this comment!
I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments.
One area I cover is occ health and safety. A lot of manufacturing is has significant risk of personal harm. It is imperative that dumb behaviors are highlighted, called out, and shamed. I've seen people lose appendages and worst for really dumb reasons. Don't be dumb, lock out/tag out before sticking your body in the "crushinator 5000."
Yeah, manufacturing jobs are safer than they used to be but it’s still an environment that can be wildly dangerous. Even with good procedures and PPE, fatal or life altering accidents can easily happen if people are tired, distracted, etc.
I’ll add to this: be really sure that you know what you’re doing and are licensed/trained before you touch that 480v electrical panel.
I can't tell what your "this" refers to in the statement:"I dunno, this kind of reaction feels like the sort of thing that only comes up in low stakes environments." because the comment thread is too deep lol.
If what I say below to you doesn't apply, I apologize.
Sometimes the issue is that the system is totally fucked up though, even in high-stakes environments.
I don't know if you've watched "Chernobyl", but in that series, one of the huge "fatal flaws" is that their equipment did not have the range to actually measure the levels of radiation accurately. The second major flaw is leadership behaving with such arrogance and conflicts of interest so great, they could not see past their own hubris to make the safest decisions.
I would argue that, if you are taught to use the detector, even if you are the best user of the detector, but do not know how the detector works or its limitations, you will still fall victim to misuse of it, and inherently dangerous or otherwise grossly misguided situations.
Honestly, this difference is kind of what I'm talking about in high intellectual positions vs. not--or, for more sensitive wording, situations where critical thinking and curiosity are not the priority.
The best mechanic in the world can know how to use a machine, but he may not know how it works and thus troubleshoot it or know its limitations. If the person were educated enough to know their own limitations, and empowered enough to ask for and receive help, then we have no problem.
But that is not often the case, in my experience, in these positions; People would rather double down on their perceived position of power (being the person wielding the tool). People would rather seek out their own ease and comfort (understandably), before rocking the boat; They tell themselves -"Surely, someone else would have done something if what I was doing was so wrong or dangerous," or, more commonly, "it's not my job to make X decision, my job is to act out X decision."
Many positions, in any profession at this point, are about unquestioning obedience and self-serving behavior, and that, does not foster an environment of critical thinking or curiosity, which, I'm aware, I sound like a broken record, but there is no other way to say it.
Examples in Science, to round out my viewpoints--it's not just manufacturing or other "blue collar" jobs
The following examples are more examples of people doing dumb things, some of whom have PhDs from highly regarded institutions.
-Lab associates that use their hands to activate an air curtain shield to stop a machine from operating, instead of using the button on the computer, because it saves time, or because the button doesn't always work, I don't know the full reasons, but that blatant disregard comes from all kinds of things. I assume one of those things is not realizing that your hand will literally be chopped off if that air curtain fails. Or "it won't happen to me."
-Scientists looking directly down the barrel of a laser to figure out if it is working...I won't even explain this one.
-People disposing of sharps in non-sharps containers. People not realizing that not all sharps are metal or glass, looking at you, pipette tips.
Honestly, it happens everywhere--blue collar, white collar, grey collar--and this thread is making me realize the lack of curiosity combined with, if I had to guess, not feeling like your curiosity matters (even if you bring up the issue, someone may not help you fix it, so what's the point), is the real problem. But I stand by my assertions, that the proportion of people you run into, at your job, that are "like this", is higher, depending on the profession/environment.
In my post "this" referred to the pushback you received using the word "dumb." I'd never use it in a learning context. I absolutely will call someone dumb if their behavior is endangering themselves or others.
I feel this entire conversation is beating around the bush for no particular reason. Some people are dealt a bad hand at birth and have some serious cognitive challenges. You'd overwhelmingly find those folks at jobs that do not require strong reasoning skills and require rote, unthinking manual labour instead.
There is no sleight or judgement towards anyone by saying that.
I didn't want to single you out and respond to you specifically, I just got to the end of the entire chain and figured I might as well respond here.
Yeah 100%. The workforce I help manage is highly diverse across any slice you'd want to make. Literacy is not a given; you could have a refugee doctor who just isn't sharp on her English working alongside an American who didn't finish elementary school.
That's a really weird way of saying "we need slaves to make labor-intensive goods for our population to buy."
There will never be global parity in quality of life until there is a global minimum wage.
I don’t think this is how comparative advantage works.
Goods in the U.S. are expensive, in part because of a high density of capital owners and high-skill laborers, and in part because of the dollar’s status as the global reserve currency.
I’ve heard many economists say something along the lines of “laborers in countries with weaker economies and weaker currencies can get far more QOL benefit than U.S. workers for the same pay” when criticizing the president’s “plan” to bring back U.S. manufacturing. In other words, manufacturing will be cheaper in countries where workers are willing to work for less pay in raw dollars.
Unequal distribution of resources will always cause different places to have different strengths. This means that different wages will map to different qualities of life in different parts of the globe, probably forever. Thus, different parts of the globe will have different economic strengths and weaknesses (therefore, comparative advantage).
For example, cooks and service workers that live near coastal towns with nice weather will likely always make more money than the same careers anywhere else, but their cost of living will also be higher due to the relatively higher demand for living in that area. We can absolutely achieve global parity in quality of life without global parity in wages.
That will require additional investment and development in countries that don’t currently have a high quality of life.
I'm not disputing that regional differences will result in differing costs of living. I am rejecting this, though:
I'm not saying "all coal miners should be paid $200 an hour." I am saying that worldwide, all wages should be within a standard deviation or two from each other. Somebody doing "low skill" labor like fast food work should have more or less equal buying power on a global market. But as things currently stand, the primary reason goods get shipped across the world and back for refinement and manufacturing has more to do with being able to exploit a given area's lower CoL to pay disproportionately less.
There should be global minimum and maximum wages. It will set a natural cap on how high CoL will go, and a floor for exploitation.
I do understand this is not a feasible thing to implement given the current state of the world. It would require a much stronger UN, with a country's voting power directly proportional to its population.
I mean.. that's either impossible or a tautology.
Morally I like the idea. But how does this get implemented while respecting the sovereignty of nations? Sure you could get some kind of treaty of trade pact, but I'm not sure how enforceable it is.
Personally, I don't. If the goods and services are global, so should the rules and regulations that govern their existence.
In that same vein: People should be as free (or more so) to move as goods. There should be no such thing as "illegal" immigration.
huh... I wouldn't really endorse a worldview where moving a person is as easy as any good.
But I would also believe that if people wants to self organize into a nation towards the ends of self determination; some measures of sovereignty should be afforded.
That's why they invented localities. It would function much like the USA or the EU: Autonomous local governance beholden to the laws of the world.
I would be curious to know why you feel people shouldn't be free to move as desired, with little more than identifying their residence.
Would it be immoral to have a bunch of armed thugs that shoot you on sight if you try to leave your town? If so, why is it acceptable when the border is larger?
I do support free movement of people. But I don't equate that as the same as movement of goods; when I think of people moving as easily as any good I think of chattel slavery.
I've been hearing some more Mikhail Bakunin lately and it's fun to see someone at least somewhat resembling the anarcho-collectivist arguments of the time.
I'm not sure how true that is for your overall worldview, and I don't want to assume, but I felt the coincidence was interesting enough to point out.
While likely inspired by, one of my inspirational sources was openborders.info. They've got an aggregate of pretty solid arguments in favor of open borders from almost any moral perspective.
Looks like you've given me more reading material.
Yup. I'd vibe with this dude.
He's a great radical anarchist. He thinks that liberty only exists if everyone is free. If only a few people have liberty, then liberty does not exist. Only privilege exists. Church and state are included in this, and the ideal is a federalist commune structure (a la Paris Commune) where everyone is at all times free to leave or join, as long as they provide through labour. Of which they all collectively reap the rewards. So... No borders.
I like his idealist look on freedom, but strongly disagree with his anarcho-collectivist methods. If there are any real methods to implement this to speak of.
He was the political and philosophical rival of Marx, alive during the same period and clashed often during the meetings of the First International.
All we need is a proper global benevolent dictator. Easy peasy :)
Yeah some sort of immortal god emperor so we don't need to deal with succession either.
A properly run democracy, with proper representation, at a global level would likely do the trick. Is the EU completely ineffectual? The UN would be much more effective if it weren't for the USA basically having veto power over everything.
The problem, as usual, is getting there from here. Especially when it goes directly against the interests of the people most able to make that happen. It would require the human race to collectively decide to drop the competitiveness and cooperate for the common good.
I wager this only occurs in the event of cataclysmic fall of society via climate change or nuclear war necessitating the survivors work together in ways previously unfathomable.
...A conservative think tank says wages are too low.
One of those situations that causes infighting: When free market religion butts against the interests of business.