59
votes
Anyone else a bit unnerved by the number of visible satellites?
I have always know there are satellites going around the earth, but more often that not now when I casually inspect the night sky I see at least one moving satellite. It’s obvious and no need for any telescope. It feels so different than when I was younger: instead of a sense of wonder at the scale of the universe and nature, it’s a constant reminder of the pervasiveness of humanity’s technology and scope for surveillance.
I don’t really have a specific point from this post other than to express a sorrow for the loss of a night sky from my youth.
Personally I like it because it makes me think I live in the future I thought I would when I was a child. Many, many other things have fallen short of my childhood future but the night sky isn't one of them, all we need now is a giant orbital space station that would be visible to the naked eye :)
Ah yes, a nice visible space station that only the insanely rich are allowed to live on while they extract the rest of the wealth and resources from earth and we all suffer and die. Just like the movie Elysium.
So far the only people on space stations are scientists so I don't know why you'd think this. And it seems kinda miserable to actually live on a space station vs. the surface of Earth so I can't imagine many rich people opting to be up there.
I don't think you've watched/read enough science fiction. The term "space station" is pretty loose and many of them can mimic the environments of Earth and even improve upon it.
I was thinking about what an actual near-future large space station would be like.
Y'all just came at the same thought from different angles.
It is interesting how large the breadth of options are.
Well, my current favorite sci-fi universe, Universal Century Gundam, has the opposite of your Elysium scenario: the rich elite stubbornly remain on an Earth that is deteriorating, while the numerous orbital space colonies are near overcrowded with poorer people evicted from the planet and their descendants.
I think their concern is the marked pivot from publicly funded exploration to privately funded exploration, which has already been demonstrated to have sent non scientists into lower Earth orbit for funsies and bragging rights. While not a forgone conclusion, it seems like a very realistic one.
Maybe the future of science in space is paid for by luxury rentals in space first.
Honestly at this point I'd take even that. I miss the night sky. When I was a kid, even in the city I could look outside and see much of the stars. Being at my grandparents' place in the country (rural but not remote) and seeing the spill of the Milky Way was amazing. But the sky has gotten less and less visible as I've gotten older. I never get to see it anymore, without traveling into basically the wilderness. I think it's been decades since I last saw it unobstructed. I don't think I could see a satellite moving across the sky on even the clearest night, at least not here. I'm doing good to see Orion's Belt most of the year.
I have some astronomer friends who lament about light pollution on a regular basis, it's a real problem for them. Their 50+ year old observatories used to be in the dark outside town. Now the towns surround them and put up skyscrapers.
I was hoping that the swap from Soda Lamps to LED lighting would improve it, with more directional light and less excess shine, but it seems to have done nothing for ground-level light pollution. Short of demanding that all lights be turned off or at least set to a lower lumen level at night, I don't that there's a good solution. I was told that the lights being on is there to help deter criminals, but crime still happens in the night anyway so maybe that wasn't such a good reason to bathe our cities in eternal light.
If we built our cities denser and less car-dependent, a lot more land area would be "remote" enough to be free from light pollution. It would also help with a host of other problems.
Yeah but then I might have to hear, see, or think about my neighbors. Get to know them. Live in community with them. Be thoughtful and courteous towards them and ask that they be thoughtful and courteous to me in return. Me? Advocate for my own space in a city when I could just drive out to a satellite exurb in my pickup truck and claim the 90 minute round trip is freedom?
Thankfully cities have started turning the color temperature down on LED streetlights so they’re more yellow and can be filtered out more easily. I think in the near future we can also get to a point where lighting along side-streets can be motion-sensored to remain dim by default and only brighten when a car is driving through. Same with patio and outdoor lighting. Large surface parking lots, if they must exist, should also increasingly have solar panels on them so they can shield the light from reflecting back up.
For pedestrian safety we only really need lights up most of the time because car headlights and overly bright patio lighting blows out our night-vision. If we stop doing that we can get away with not really lighting anything but major obstacles. There’s a poorly reasoned theory out there that saturating everything in bright fluorescent light is “safer” since criminals can’t hide in shadows to mug you. But criminals don’t hide in shadows like that, that’s just people’s fear of the dark talking. If anything, overlying bright lighting makes shadows darker and easier to hide in. The sooner people understand this the better.
We can have dark skies again, we just need to make it a policy priority.
Every problem we face in society tends to come down to overcoming people’s feelings and irrationalities, huh? We really run a whole planet on Truthiness.
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⢛⡛⢛⡛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠡⠬⠥⠵⢏⣳⣘⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠠⠤⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠟⠑⠀⠀⠀⢀⠠⠠⠘⡤⡙⢎⢲⡩⣟⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢟⠝⣈⠅⠀⣀⣀⣺⣿⣿⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⡀⠂⢱⠘⣆⢱⣎⣰⣿⣹⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢳⠁⢰⠒⠊⠁⠚⠉⡙⠛⠛⣿
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⡁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠂⢭⣾⡽⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣖⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠠⢹⡶⠈
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⢠⠄⠀⠀⠠⣄⡾⣴⢶⣾⣿⢿⣟⣿⣿⣿⣿⣯⡄⠀⠀⢹⣿⣿⣿⣛⣩⢍⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠁⢀⠀⠿⠓⠛⠂⠺⣡⡀⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡰⣀⠸⢠⠐⢬⣻⣮⣿⣷⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡛⡁⢈⣀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡩⣰⣀⠁⠀⠀⢀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡟⠁⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣇⢹⣈⡁⠌⣠⣧⣏⣁⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⠁⢇⣜⣼⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⣤⠼⠀⠀⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⣁⣧⠀⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⢺⠽⣷⠽⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⠔⠰⢾⣿⠄⠀⣸⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡗⠀⢀⠀⢡⠐⠒⠀⠀⠀⢞⠀⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣯⣟⣻⣷⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠃⠀⢀⣾⣿⡆⠀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣼⡆⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠈⣼⣿⣿⡇⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⡦⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣿⡇⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⢀⣢⢻⣿⣿⡇⢠⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡀⢼⣿⣷⠀
⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡟⠀⠗⠂⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⣰⣿⣿
I feel you. It also wrecks life for nocturnal animals.
Motion sensors with very short timeouts would help. Or switching it all to red light.
I'm team 'all outdoor lights switch off at 10PM' though. Maybe we'll all get some more sleep.
My neighbors always have their lights on because of ONE time a teenager was up to no good and looking for unlocked cars in the neighborhood. It depresses me :( and I feel bad for all the wildlife. My mom says I shouldn't dwell on such things but it's hard when the mega bright lights are shining into my room all night. Sigh. Maybe I should think about some blackout curtains...
Someone should tell them that putting the floodlight on a motion sensor is actually a BETTER deterrent to that because it makes them think they’re being watched.
I can't remember if I mentioned it elsewhere, but I haven't had a good night's sleep in decades because I haven't been out where it's truly dark in so long. There was an experiment where a guy lived in a cave in absolute darkness for like a month or so, and I forget the reason and the outcome of the experiment but all I could think was "I'd love to have a pitch-black cave that I could sleep in."
I think if I were ever wealthy enough to have a panic room, or a fallout shelter, I'd probably have a bedroom in there just to get some sleep.
Where abouts are you based? I live in a town/city in the UK and I can see most significant constellations, but no Milky Way. Countryside needed for the Milky Way. But I had always thought it was quite bad here, but that sounds way worse!
Northeast Texas, near the DFW Metroplex with around nine to ten million other folks. I’m technically outside of the city proper but the skyscrapers of downtown Dallas light up a whole section of my sky. We’ve been in conditions where we’re in a blackout due to storms or someone crashing into a substation or something and you can still see the glow of Dallas.
In a similar vein, I love cities but light pollution makes me angry. I want much, MUCH tighter rules around lights at night. Cities can and should be much closer to dark sky status than they are. We might not be able to see the full Milky Way from the middle of a city, but we could see far more stars. Shielding, color temp ~2700K, and smart/motion lighting to start.
Funny, I live in a city and light pollution is actually one of my pluses; I really like that even at its darkest, it's never too dark. I grew up in the country, and when it got dark it got pitch black, and while there was very little actual danger (no strangers around, and not the dangerous variety of wildlife) it was still very unnerving to not be able to see 20 feet ahead of you unless it was a full moon.
Granted, I would love to see more stars, and I can't comment on the environmental impacts of light pollution (I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them), but as a general vibe I enjoy having some light all the time
I grew up in the country, went to college in the city and stayed there for 10+ years, and moved back to the country and this is one of the reasons why. I need that organic night.
Even 25ish years later, I still can't sleep as well as I could as I did as a country kid, and I think the lack of proper nightime is no small part of it.
Even in my own damn house I counted no less than 30 LEDs that are passively on 24/7. I've resorted to glue, tape, and perfectly tin-foiled windows.
Try goth nail polish.
Well I certainly look slay now, but what am I to do about these LEDs?
Well, now that you are ready, I guess you just desolder them and replace with either blacklight or deepest red. Whatever goes better with your drapes.
There's a middle ground here. In many places, the lights that illuminate the ground (good) are also flooding the sky above them with light (light pollution, and also a waste of energy). Simple things, like aiming them correctly and shielding their tops, goes a very long way to improving night sky visibility without reducing ground illumination.
But I am talking about the sky pollution, how the sky is purple-ish, and even on streets with no streetlights it's still sorta visible. In theory a comprehensive street light system could handle this and also avoid light pollution, but in that absence the "ambient" sky light is appreciated.
I don't feel super strong, and I'm not going to attend a city hall meeting to oppose proper light pollution reduction or anything, but it does kind of comfort me in small ways
I grew up in an rural area and this was my experience too, but nowadays LEDs are so cheap and the batteries and bulbs so long-lasting that it’s trivial to wear a little lantern pinned to your shirt to light your way. I think pretty much every dog owner in places without a lot of street lighting now has LED collars or harnesses when they take them out. And that’s ignoring the phone flashlights that everyone has with them at all times now.
Yeah, I live in rural North Carolina and it gets very dark out here. I also love cities and I realize that more light is part of being in one. At the same time, I think cities are much brighter than they need to be. It seems like we have the technology and smarts to avoid extremes and light our environment intelligently in a way that respects our biology and nature. In my mind, it even has the potential to enhance city living.
Shy of mandating zero power consumption once it's dark, how? Let's say at least the hospital needs lights all night. The what about the roads going to the hospital? What about the houses of the paramedics coming home from the hospital? Or the convenience store where the paramedic buys food on the way home?
Modern life is 24/7/365: we have people who work at night and they need to be safe, be able to eat and get home.
I mentioned some solutions in my original comment: "Shielding, color temp ~2700K, and smart/motion lighting to start." Shielding keeps lighting where it should be. Warmer temps reduce glare and the darkness of shadows. Motion sensing allows us to illuminate areas when actively needed, and dim them otherwise.
We already know that more light, and blue/white light does not equal greater safety. They increase glare and the darkness of shadows. Even, low-intensity lighting is better for safety and security than bright white lights.
This is why Dark Sky International has five principles for responsible outdoor lighting - it should be useful, controlled, targeted, no brighter than necessary, and warm color. They have more resources if you're interested in exploring.
Thanks for the links -- even on just the road safety aspect we could really use some changes and legislation, instead of eye blinding arms race of bright white LEDs. Even better if it helps us with light pollution.
But it's one of those things US/Canadian politicians would never risk themselves to push for, I'm afraid. Maybe we'll see China do it first and then everyone else eventually warm up to it.
Idk it evokes a sense of wonder of the exponential growth of human technology. It wasn't all that long ago that humans worshipped the stars; now we launch stars of our own into the night sky.
That’s how I used to think about it, but it’s so extensive now it feels different and more negative.
The modern world is full of wonder.
The people wading through unregulated ewaste dump sites in rural Hong Kong might disagree.
The point on surveillance hits home for me. Soon we are never going to be able to escape cameras pointed at us all the time and we won't have any privacy, in or out of our homes. Soon it will be frivolous to record everyone all the time.
It already is, the permeation of Ring and Nest has bonkers level of coverage. Plus you can't step within 500ft of any retail establishment without being in sight of at least 5 cameras.
Plus, you are 100% trusting that your phone isn't lying to you and isn't recording you whenever it damn well feels like it.
Every single car built after a certain year also has cameras slapped all over it and are connected to the internet. They might not be recording you, but they totally could do that.
Bonus points if you realize that the Chinese government now owns a big part of some of these companies and have a lot of influence over them. So they could turn on an extensive surveillance network in foreign countries if they so pleased
I think anybody not paranoid about the current state of technology is not paranoid enough.
The governments of the world are like 2 steps away from being able to quietly assasinate anyone with a car. And everyone is perfectly fine with it, because 'they wouldn't do that.'
Honestly this hasn't been my experience at all. The only manmade thing I regularly see in the night sky is the ISS. I've spotted a handful of other satellites here and there over the years, but those have been an exception, not the rule.
Admittedly, I don't do as much observing of the night sky as I used to, so that could be why. But I do frequently take a minute or two to observe if I get home late or feel urge to go outside and feel miniscule.
All that being said, I'm certainly not thrilled by the amount of space junk spinning around us up there.
My dad is an amateur radio operator (ham radio) and has been since my childhood. We would watch the skies for satellites all the time, and he would use some of them to transmit. He had this satellite tracking program on his old Commodore Vic20. He'd put in some data and it would calculate the satellite passes for him.
I know there are more satellites in LEO these days, but I guess I'm saying I've always been aware of them, so I don't know if I've actually noticed the uptick.
Ok I feel like an idiot for asking this but… how is it possible to see satellites with the naked eye? Aren’t they smaller than airplanes, dramatically further away, and with no need for lights? What should I look for to identify a satellite? Are there AR apps that could identify one?
They are reflecting the sun off polished metal surfaces in a dark sky. You won’t see satellites that are in earth’s shadow. They also aren’t that far away, starlink is like 550 km.
If you want to see the international space station pass over, NASA has an app that will alert you and tell you what direction to look and when it will pass. It looks like a star moving through the night sky. Other apps can show you when satellites are going by too.
Yup, but sometimes you get the angle juuuust right with their body and/or solar panels to reflect the sun.
If you find a star that doesn't blink, isn't colored (like a plane) and that's visible more than 1 sec (like a shooting star), then it's a satellite.
Or just a regular star/planet (you forgot to mention they need to be moving across the sky as well)
I think Stellarium has satellite tracking as well.