There are a lot of reasons that phone's have swapped to a non-user replaceable battery beyond just greed and waterproofness. It allows phones to be lighter and slimmer (I know, I know, this...
There are a lot of reasons that phone's have swapped to a non-user replaceable battery beyond just greed and waterproofness. It allows phones to be lighter and slimmer (I know, I know, this doesn't matter to a lot of the people here, but it obviously matters to some people or companies wouldn't keep marketing it as a selling point.)
It basically eliminates the metal/glass design of most modern phones, leading to major redesigns of pretty much everything to do with the phones case. And not only this, modern phone batteries aren't just blocks, they're designed in weird shapes to fit in the most possible storage into the limited phone space (seen here) and this is one of the more tame shapes.
I'm not saying this because I'm pro non-removable battery, I'm just saying its not going to just be sunshine and roses for everything if this change is forced.
Everyone marvels at their slick, new all glass and metal, beautiful phones that cost millions to design; then slaps a case over them and covers it all up. I never see anyone walking around with a...
Everyone marvels at their slick, new all glass and metal, beautiful phones that cost millions to design; then slaps a case over them and covers it all up. I never see anyone walking around with a naked phone. 90% of the internal battery issue relates to people being more likely to just buy a new phone than paying $175 to replace the battery.
Personally I've been running caseless for around the past 5 years now because I got tired of not seeing my phone. Perhaps surprisingly it's worked out well, with drops having been rare and the...
Personally I've been running caseless for around the past 5 years now because I got tired of not seeing my phone. Perhaps surprisingly it's worked out well, with drops having been rare and the only wear my phones accumulating having been from friction, like how one of the frosted corners on the back of an iPhone 11 wore smooth, but that's it.
I paid 175 for my new phone. It has user replaceable battery. Nokia G22. It's by no means to tier, quite the opposite. But it can do everything I need. And it's the first phone that I had that has...
I paid 175 for my new phone. It has user replaceable battery. Nokia G22. It's by no means to tier, quite the opposite. But it can do everything I need. And it's the first phone that I had that has QR code to iFixit guides for it right on the box!
You are absolutely right about people biastung aout their sleek phones and then shoving them into cheap plastic enclosures...
on the other side of the spectrum, I have a $1200 2021 flagship Asus phone with the same amount of ram as my Laptop that can tackle any game at max settings or emulation that is available. I can...
on the other side of the spectrum, I have a $1200 2021 flagship Asus phone with the same amount of ram as my Laptop that can tackle any game at max settings or emulation that is available. I can understand that it probably needs to be a sealed design in order to house 16GB of RAM, 6000 MAh battery, 2 USB C ports, and all other bells and whistles (most of which I use as a power user)... water proofness not being a part of those bells.
But on the other hand it is currently in the shop for repairs for around that magical $175 price point (mostly for expedited shipping). Only real regret is not buying proper insurance to save on that dang shipping cost.
The thing about marketting is that it becomes the talking point about why they bought their new phone. A self-re-enforcing thing that does not convey value intrinsicly. I for one can't wait for...
it obviously matters to some people or companies wouldn't keep marketing it as a selling point.
The thing about marketting is that it becomes the talking point about why they bought their new phone. A self-re-enforcing thing that does not convey value intrinsicly.
I for one can't wait for the death of ultrathin. I would like 5.6 in screens with a touch of thickness so my hands can actually hold it without having to buy accessories anymore.
I'm replying from Nokia G22. It can be done and it can be done in cheap phone. There is no reason for expensive ones to not be able to swap battery. Obviously not as user-friendly as good old...
I'm replying from Nokia G22. It can be done and it can be done in cheap phone. There is no reason for expensive ones to not be able to swap battery. Obviously not as user-friendly as good old Nokia 3310 was, but still better tha having everythun glued together and using million of different screws in one phone.
I get you message and I understand you are not defending current state. I just wanted to say that it clearly can be done while maintaining modern phone properties (my phone is still pretty slim; what is poibt of makibg it slim when mot people use some kind of case anyway?).
To be honest, for all my time owning cell phones, the only time when I had problems with batteries was when I cheaped out on my phone. Buying higher quality but still relatively inexpensive phones...
To be honest, for all my time owning cell phones, the only time when I had problems with batteries was when I cheaped out on my phone. Buying higher quality but still relatively inexpensive phones solved that problem for me.
Besides that, swapping batteries in a modern environment isn't really convenient with today's technology. First you have to wait for the thing to shut down completely, then you have to open a very fiddly back up, do the replacement, reinstall the fiddly back, hold the button, and wait an excessively long time for it to boot up all the way. And then there's no dedicated charger for the kind of battery that goes in phones, so you're stuck with a useless discharged battery which you may or may not remember to swap out when you get home to recharge it, which may leave your phone unoperable for a while if it had discharged the battery all the way. And then of course, all the times you have opened and closed the back of it wears out the fiddly part of the back. All of this combined means an increase of e-waste.
It seems to me that one good battery is worth more than two bad batteries.
Back in the dumbphone days (which I am not at all looking to go back to - they were dark times), even my cheap and hand-me-down phones had batteries that would last for at least a day - often more.
If I understand the reasoning behind this law correctly, swapping the battery is more about extending the longevity of your device. Once your battery is degraded, you can just swap it out...
swapping batteries in a modern environment isn't really convenient with today's technology. First you have to wait for the thing to shut down completely, then you have to open a very fiddly back up, do the replacement, reinstall the fiddly back, hold the button, and wait an excessively long time for it to boot up all the way.
If I understand the reasoning behind this law correctly, swapping the battery is more about extending the longevity of your device. Once your battery is degraded, you can just swap it out yourself. That's not something you have to do daily. More like once every few years. You can still use a power bank for your daily needs, if you like.
The article @cokedragon posted is limited. Here's a better write-up:
The new rules stipulate that all electric vehicle, light means of transport (e.g. electric scooters), and rechargeable industrial batteries (above 2kWh) will need to have a compulsory carbon footprint declaration, label, and digital passport.
For "portable batteries" used in devices such as smartphones, tablets, and cameras, consumers must be able to "easily remove and replace them." This will require a drastic design rethink by manufacturers, as most phone and tablet makers currently seal the battery away and require specialist tools and knowledge to access and replace them safely.
and
The new rules also stipulate strict targets for collecting waste and recovering materials from old batteries. The percentages for each increase at set intervals between now and 2031, at which point 61% waste collection must be achieved and 95% of materials must be recovered from old portable batteries. There will also be minimum levels of recycled content used in new batteries required, but only "eight years after the entry into force of the regulation."
I’m aware of that but the parent poster sounded like they were talking about easily accessible batteries that could be swapped mid-day. That’s a bit of a different ball park. (Paging @daychilde...
I’m aware of that but the parent poster sounded like they were talking about easily accessible batteries that could be swapped mid-day. That’s a bit of a different ball park.
My phone has a replaceable battery, and I would be able to switch in a new battery in about 2 minutes (I literally just tried doing it, for real). Is 2 minutes really too long to have your phone...
swapping batteries in a modern environment isn't really convenient with today's technology. First you have to wait for the thing to shut down completely, then you have to open a very fiddly back up, do the replacement, reinstall the fiddly back, hold the button, and wait an excessively long time for it to boot up all the way.
My phone has a replaceable battery, and I would be able to switch in a new battery in about 2 minutes (I literally just tried doing it, for real). Is 2 minutes really too long to have your phone not working?
And then there's no dedicated charger for the kind of battery that goes in phones
Yes, there are. Or there would be if phone companies started manufacturing phones with replaceable batteries. Back in the day, when replaceable batteries were more common, there were dedicated chargers for those batteries. And there will be again.
All of this combined means an increase of e-waste.
How so? What's getting thrown out?
Let's do a case study.
Recently, I was having a problem with my phone not charging properly. It's an older phone, and it's been in service for a few years, so I figured the battery was wearing out. Now... bear with me... I had forgotten that it has a removeable battery because this is so uncommon these days. So, I actually started researching possible replacement phones - until I remembered that I can just replace the battery.
In that scenario, having a dodgy battery that couldn't be replaced would have resulted in me having to replace the whole phone. However, because the battery is replaceable, I get to keep the phone itself, and only replace the battery. To me, that seems like less e-waste.
(By the way... the problem turned out to be the charging cable, which was an easy fix.)
Even if I had a separate device for charging batteries, that device would stay in service for many years, charging many different batteries over that time. It wouldn't get thrown out every time I replace my phone, or even when I replace my battery.
Man I seem to have rustled some feathers with this comment. First of all, I didn’t say it was painful. Just that it was inconvenient. Of course 2 minutes isn’t a lot of time, but it’s a lot more...
Man I seem to have rustled some feathers with this comment.
First of all, I didn’t say it was painful. Just that it was inconvenient. Of course 2 minutes isn’t a lot of time, but it’s a lot more than the 20 to 30 seconds it would take for a dumb phone.
It’s honestly a stretch to believe that just because the battery is replaceable there will be chargers for it. History has shown that to be untrue. There are still many phones being used right now with user-swapable batteries that don’t fit into any commercially available chargers. I literally cannot remember any cell phone that used a battery that had a standalone charger. I think you are also forgetting that most phones don’t use standardized batteries so it’s not like you can buy one cell phone battery charger and it will work for everyone’s batteries.
The e-waste I was talking about was the extra batteries. In an ideal world they would all be recycled, but we do not live in an ideal world. If there were dedicated battery chargers they would also become e-waste when the next generation uses different batteries.
And as I mentioned in a different comment, there is no such thing as a non-replaceable battery. It may just not be easy to replace it.
I assume you are under the impression that I am against this legislation or the idea of user-replaceable batteries. I assure you that I am not. My wish is to not need to replace the battery. Referencing yet another comment I made earlier, I think a bigger problem with cell phones is software support and hardware lockouts that turn them into expensive paperweights.
2 minutes to swap a battery isn't a big inconvenience. The way you wrote about it, you made swapping batteries sound like some huge ordeal. It's not. I lived through that history. Even if there...
First of all, I didn’t say it was painful. Just that it was inconvenient.
2 minutes to swap a battery isn't a big inconvenience. The way you wrote about it, you made swapping batteries sound like some huge ordeal. It's not.
It’s honestly a stretch to believe that just because the battery is replaceable there will be chargers for it. History has shown that to be untrue.
I lived through that history. Even if there weren't chargers for phone batteries, they could still be charged inside the phone itself. Either way, they're chargeable.
The e-waste I was talking about was the extra batteries.
Imagine two phones:
My Samsung Galaxy Folder (released 2017), with a replaceable battery.
A Samsung Galaxy S8 (also released 2017), with a non-replaceable battery.
Now imagine that both phones' batteries wear out. Which device will create more e-waste?
With the Galaxy Folder, we can replace the battery, and keep the phone itself. The e-waste generated is one battery.
With the Galaxy S8, we have to replace the whole phone. The e-waste generated is one phone unit, as well as one battery.
Phones with non-replaceable batteries end up generating more e-waste than phones with replaceable batteries.
I assume you are under the impression that I am against this legislation or the idea of user-replaceable batteries.
I'm not making any such assumption. I'm merely addressing the points you raised regarding replaceable batteries:
They're not as much hassle as you made out.
They generate less e-waste than non-replaceable batteries.
I honestly do not understand why you are arguing with me about this. I didn’t write any of this to start a fight, I merely wanted to express an opinion. In any case I find it extremely distressing...
I honestly do not understand why you are arguing with me about this. I didn’t write any of this to start a fight, I merely wanted to express an opinion.
In any case I find it extremely distressing that you would misrepresent the things I am saying to such a strong degree. I’m sorry you got the wrong idea about the inconvenience of swapping batteries. I have no idea how you possibly could think that I am assuming that replaceable batteries would be non-rechargeable. And you completely missed my point that even if a phone isn’t meant to be user-serviceable that it you can still have the battery replaced.
I get where you're coming from. For perspective, I'm still almost entirely on the other side of this. My phone pulls alternate duties as a cycling computer, hiking GPS, kayaking camera, and work...
I get where you're coming from. For perspective, I'm still almost entirely on the other side of this.
My phone pulls alternate duties as a cycling computer, hiking GPS, kayaking camera, and work device in environments ranging from heavy industry to fields in the absolute middle of nowhere. I wouldn't trade away an IP68 rating for anything with a slide-off plastic battery cover, especially if I'm still lugging around some kind extra battery with me from time to time. And on the topic of spare batteries, I'd still prefer a generic, USB-charged, Anker-style, lithium ion battery pack that can charge damn near anything, over something proprietary.
I absolutely believe in the right to repair, but I'm not sure that means I need, or even want, the ability to repair and/or replace every aspect of something myself if it means mandating design choices by law. If the only thing keeping me from making the repair myself is access to the right tools and experience, I don't mind going to the person who has said tools and experience. What I mind is not having options.
Back when I was working in an office I would have killed for a big, fat, phone that'd go three days without needing to be charged. A Motorola StarTac with a big ol' tumor of a battery... drool.
My 2014 Galaxy S5 has a headphone jack, replaceable battery, an SD card slot, and an IP67 rating. The primary differentiator between IP67 and IP68 is that an IP67 phone is rated to sit in 3 meters...
I wouldn't trade away an IP68 rating for anything with a slide-off plastic battery cover
My 2014 Galaxy S5 has a headphone jack, replaceable battery, an SD card slot, and an IP67 rating.
The primary differentiator between IP67 and IP68 is that an IP67 phone is rated to sit in 3 meters of water up to 30 minutes, and IP68 can sit in up to 5 meters of water up to 30 minutes.
Unless you're regularly leaving your phone in deep pools of water, the difference is negligible.
Eh, my point wasn't really about any specific rating; rather, I'd prefer environmental resiliency, even if the trade-off was a non-removable battery. Of course some devices offer both.
Eh, my point wasn't really about any specific rating; rather, I'd prefer environmental resiliency, even if the trade-off was a non-removable battery. Of course some devices offer both.
Offering both means it's not a tradeoff that needs to be made. It means that one compny has cut corners to avoid doing both. :) The kind of thing that laws like this really help to rectify.
Offering both means it's not a tradeoff that needs to be made. It means that one compny has cut corners to avoid doing both. :)
The kind of thing that laws like this really help to rectify.
An insane law to say the least and I'm interested in how this informs smartphone design going forward. Thoughts? (Also feel free to move to ~news if it's more at home there!)
TL;DR
European Parliament passed a change to a law that will force replaceable batteries on all gadgets, including smartphones.
By law, phones in the EU by 2027 will need to have batteries you can replace with no tools, which means no adhesives.
This could fundamentally change how smartphones are designed.
An insane law to say the least and I'm interested in how this informs smartphone design going forward. Thoughts?
(Also feel free to move to ~news if it's more at home there!)
I think there are at least two major phone design elements that will change for sold-in-EU smartphones will have to do: Ditch any pretense at being fully waterproof. There's no way having a user...
I think there are at least two major phone design elements that will change for sold-in-EU smartphones will have to do:
Ditch any pretense at being fully waterproof. There's no way having a user serviceable battery compartment door is compatible with actual immersion waterproofing, particularly without adhesives.
Phones will ship with less battery capacity because internal space will need to be spent on bracing and other strengthening to compensate for the battery compartment being rugged and batteries being larger to onboard control chips for battery safety.
Is that the end of the world? Probably not; but it does perpetuate global phone function/feature differences depending on geographic region.
Yeah I think the critical difference is legitimately around 'full immersion'. Most Japanese phones are that way by default, there have only been very few US market phones are like that. The issue...
Yeah I think the critical difference is legitimately around 'full immersion'. Most Japanese phones are that way by default, there have only been very few US market phones are like that. The issue mostly revolves around what kind of guarantees makers are willing to publish versus practical expenditure on engineering to make something close to it work. We had been trending in that unibody, no ports/panels direction, a solid 'brick' of hardware; but this will undo a lot of that, and probably reopen the conversation about other user serviceable things.
The S5’s IP67 is already rated for full immersion, at 1 meter. 68 is rated for over a meter at a manufacturer specified depth. Samsung’s move away from the (vastly superior imo) plastic removable...
The S5’s IP67 is already rated for full immersion, at 1 meter. 68 is rated for over a meter at a manufacturer specified depth. Samsung’s move away from the (vastly superior imo) plastic removable back designs seemed to be more informed by a criticism of their phones not feeling “premium” than anything else, which I personally find ridiculous. It’s like saying a drill isn’t premium and should be made of glass instead.
I replied elsewhere, but I still have my S5. Battery finally went while I was using it as an always-on server. I'll probably grab a replacement and use as a solar-powered server at some point. And...
I replied elsewhere, but I still have my S5. Battery finally went while I was using it as an always-on server. I'll probably grab a replacement and use as a solar-powered server at some point.
And IP67 is supposed to handle full submersion up to 3 meters.
Few phones are waterproof. Many are water-resistant. Fairphone 4 has replaceable parts including the battery, and meaningful water resistance. And to respond to @cokedragon: What is insane to me,...
Ditch any pretense at being fully waterproof. There's no way having a user serviceable battery compartment door is compatible with actual immersion waterproofing, particularly without adhesives.
Few phones are waterproof. Many are water-resistant.
And to respond to @cokedragon: What is insane to me, is building and selling mass consumer products that are hard or impossible to repair. It's just not a sustainable path to continue on a planet with finite resources.
Regarding the second point made I would feel inclined to offer that in my anecdotal experience of the time back when android smartphones widely had easily replacable batteries it wasn't unheard of...
Regarding the second point made I would feel inclined to offer that in my anecdotal experience of the time back when android smartphones widely had easily replacable batteries it wasn't unheard of for 3rd party companies to offer larger batteries with custom back to accomdate the added bulk. Sure they'd give your phone a thicker profile sure but just having that option was a very welcome option for power users.
I think I'd prefer the possibility of replacing a battery when it begins to degrade or swapping it out for a larger battery if the standard offering wasn't enough over what we have today where the only quick and easy way of dealing with a degrading battery is to just buy a new phone, and the only easy way to get a larger battery is to sure enough... buy a new phone.
That's a very legitimate take. One of the big reasons they've moved away from that is because unibody phones are harder for average users to break at the outset. Clearly when they're broken,...
That's a very legitimate take. One of the big reasons they've moved away from that is because unibody phones are harder for average users to break at the outset. Clearly when they're broken, they're far harder to fix. The critical cross section of those two imperatives has swung too far one way.
Do magnets have any effect on the chip? While I know it can affect the mag strip on the back, anecdotally, I haven't seen them used in like 20 years, and personally I have the one on my card...
Do magnets have any effect on the chip? While I know it can affect the mag strip on the back, anecdotally, I haven't seen them used in like 20 years, and personally I have the one on my card disabled for security purposes. (I can enable it with an app on my phone)
No chip should be fine. But gift cards and metro cards (depending on the metro system) can still get wiped since they still tend to use the magnets. Though I guess now I see more gift cards just...
No chip should be fine. But gift cards and metro cards (depending on the metro system) can still get wiped since they still tend to use the magnets. Though I guess now I see more gift cards just have a code you can scan.
Alternatively maybe using magnets in a more clever way, as a tool rather than the actual mechanism. (i.e. having the back locked in place mechanically, but such that by using a magnet it allows...
Alternatively maybe using magnets in a more clever way, as a tool rather than the actual mechanism. (i.e. having the back locked in place mechanically, but such that by using a magnet it allows for something inside to be unlinked, allowing you to open the casing). This would need a "one-way" closing design where it snaps in easily, but then opening it would require the use of a magnet.
There's no way the phone manufacturers will make two ranges of phones: one for Europe and one for the rest of the world. They'll just make one range of phones, that meets the EU's requirements,...
but it does perpetuate global phone function/feature differences depending on geographic region.
There's no way the phone manufacturers will make two ranges of phones: one for Europe and one for the rest of the world. They'll just make one range of phones, that meets the EU's requirements, and sell that range around the world.
The article even points out that this will happen with the EU's new laws about standard charging cables, and it will happen with replaceable batteries as well.
Realistically I don't know how they make a phone that has a replaceable battery and also meets, say, the Japanese market's standard demand for full-immersion water resistance. Sure, it's...
Realistically I don't know how they make a phone that has a replaceable battery and also meets, say, the Japanese market's standard demand for full-immersion water resistance. Sure, it's technically possible, but the phones are not gonna look the same/be appealing.
Absolutely willing to put up with that, 100%, if it means that I'll be able to extend the life of older devices without having to pay a technician for it (or having to purchase specialised tools...
Ditch any pretense at being fully waterproof.
Absolutely willing to put up with that, 100%, if it means that I'll be able to extend the life of older devices without having to pay a technician for it (or having to purchase specialised tools by myself and risk making a boo-boo).
But I do wonder if there will be a Brussels effect here too. Perhaps to avoid double R&D costs.
Why is it insane to require manufacturers to make a device that can have parts replaced when they become faulty, rather than having to throw out the whole device because of one faulty part?
Why is it insane to require manufacturers to make a device that can have parts replaced when they become faulty, rather than having to throw out the whole device because of one faulty part?
No, I don't know what your argument is about, because you didn't say anything beyond "an insane law to say the least". I can't read your mind; I don't know why you think this law is insane. Good...
you know the arguments not about that.
No, I don't know what your argument is about, because you didn't say anything beyond "an insane law to say the least". I can't read your mind; I don't know why you think this law is insane.
It's about enforcement of specifically a "no tools required" approach.
Good to know. So, the EU is going to force phone manufacturers to allow consumers to replace their own batteries, without having to take the device back to a shop where they'll be overcharged for the service? Again: how is that insane? It seems like common sense to me.
"No tools" seems a bit much. Is there anything wrong with needing a screwdriver? Standardizing on a few sizes of batteries would be nice. This might affect how waterproof they are.
"No tools" seems a bit much. Is there anything wrong with needing a screwdriver?
Standardizing on a few sizes of batteries would be nice.
If the screwdriver is at least a 1:1 ratio of vodka to juice, it should be strong enough. But seriously, I would really like the removable batteries to come back, but this thread has really got me...
If the screwdriver is at least a 1:1 ratio of vodka to juice, it should be strong enough.
But seriously, I would really like the removable batteries to come back, but this thread has really got me thinking about if why I originally did is still a valid reason. I mean, it is because my Razer Phone 2 is still the best phone I've ever used, but its battery life took a dump (and unrelated, I rooted it so it had no updates and slowly became dysfunctional, which I suspect started weighing in on the battery and that it was old... and I am still too lazy to swap it to Lineage OS).
Haha, god I hope not. I still can't fathom how Apple's going to work this into their design language. Might just start to see special devices just for the European market.
Haha, god I hope not. I still can't fathom how Apple's going to work this into their design language. Might just start to see special devices just for the European market.
I think it's more to do with lack of eSIM availability. I can't speak for the entirety of the EU, but where I live I can only think of one carrier that supports it at the moment.
I think it's more to do with lack of eSIM availability. I can't speak for the entirety of the EU, but where I live I can only think of one carrier that supports it at the moment.
It doesn't hurt them if they make their removable-battery versions available worldwide! I'm actually interested in how Apple will approach this design challenge.
It doesn't hurt them if they make their removable-battery versions available worldwide!
I'm actually interested in how Apple will approach this design challenge.
Yeah, just having some fun. I owned one and it was the ugliest phone I've ever had. I can understand them wanting to do this to fight back against planned obsolescence but this is an extreme...
Yeah, just having some fun. I owned one and it was the ugliest phone I've ever had.
I can understand them wanting to do this to fight back against planned obsolescence but this is an extreme measure. I feel like a reasonable middle ground would be at least allowing tools. Like, humanity invented tools for a reason! If you can afford an iPhone, you can afford a torx screwdriver.
This is great if it forces phones in the US to follow(I'm sure it will), I'm just happy because it means less e waste and hopefully no more glass backs. It's so stupid to have something that's so...
This is great if it forces phones in the US to follow(I'm sure it will), I'm just happy because it means less e waste and hopefully no more glass backs. It's so stupid to have something that's so breakable cost so much. It's like they design most phones to not live in people's pockets.
No. I am not a well coordinated person by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't imagine being able to break phones as easily as some people do. I think that most of the industry has moved on...
No. I am not a well coordinated person by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't imagine being able to break phones as easily as some people do.
I think that most of the industry has moved on to super strong specialty glass, which is nice, but we already had perfectly acceptable polycarbonate screens that cost practically nothing to produce, but people hated them for some reason. I could only guess they put their phones in their back pockets alongside their collection of loose screws and nails.
Even my fancy glass screen has ample small scratches after 3 years of use. The ideal is to have it be perfect and unchanging. I’m fine with the trend of tougher glass.
Even my fancy glass screen has ample small scratches after 3 years of use. The ideal is to have it be perfect and unchanging. I’m fine with the trend of tougher glass.
I honestly don’t think it really matters too much in the long run. There was one time when it was a point of contention but now it’s basically a standard feature.
I honestly don’t think it really matters too much in the long run. There was one time when it was a point of contention but now it’s basically a standard feature.
All it takes is a few unlucky drops to concrete. Got my S21 scuffed up from one where it slid downhill a bit with a tiny piece of gravel between the phone and ground.
All it takes is a few unlucky drops to concrete.
Got my S21 scuffed up from one where it slid downhill a bit with a tiny piece of gravel between the phone and ground.
I'm not cracking screens, I own a farm so I'm pretty rough on my phones, but I use my phones for around 5 years before I get a new one. My previous phone was a pixel xl 2 battery finally died....
I'm not cracking screens, I own a farm so I'm pretty rough on my phones, but I use my phones for around 5 years before I get a new one. My previous phone was a pixel xl 2 battery finally died. Prior to that was a nexus 6, neither had cracked screens...but this new phone note10+ second day I had it, even with a OtterBox case...back glass cracked. It's pointless, and I'd probably still be using my pixel xl2 if it had a easy to replace battery.
User replaceable batteries will probably mean more e-waste TBH. People will be likely to replace their batteries more often and also buy cheaper batteries with shorter usable lives.
User replaceable batteries will probably mean more e-waste TBH. People will be likely to replace their batteries more often and also buy cheaper batteries with shorter usable lives.
I'd say that's better than people tossing away the entire phone though. I buy all of my phones second hand off Swappa or FB marketplace, but most people just buy one, use it for a year or so and...
I'd say that's better than people tossing away the entire phone though. I buy all of my phones second hand off Swappa or FB marketplace, but most people just buy one, use it for a year or so and buy another tossing the old one away.
Pretty much all the manufacturers and phone carriers in the US have buyback programs. If the phone works, is still supported software, and isn’t too badly damaged cosmetically you get money when...
Pretty much all the manufacturers and phone carriers in the US have buyback programs. If the phone works, is still supported software, and isn’t too badly damaged cosmetically you get money when you trade it in.
Refurb and resell. If it’s can’t be refurbed recover the usable materials. Lithium from batteries is basically infinitely recyclable if it can be recovered. As can the gold and copper elements of...
Refurb and resell. If it’s can’t be refurbed recover the usable materials. Lithium from batteries is basically infinitely recyclable if it can be recovered. As can the gold and copper elements of the circuits.
Once you recover the battery and the glass you’ve basically salvaged like 90% of the phone by weight.
I feel like you're more optimistic than I am about this lol https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63245150 5 billion phones tossed away in 2022 alone :(
I feel like you're more optimistic than I am about this lol
Those are mostly gonna be old, cheap phones that don’t have a long tail of support. But even then, they’re valuable enough that they can be salvaged out if scrapyards.
Those are mostly gonna be old, cheap phones that don’t have a long tail of support. But even then, they’re valuable enough that they can be salvaged out if scrapyards.
my most recent smartphone upgrade was driven not by performance or features - it was still plenty fast for what I needed. (OnePlus 6, with an 8-core processor, 8gb RAM, and 256gb storage - I have...
my most recent smartphone upgrade was driven not by performance or features - it was still plenty fast for what I needed. (OnePlus 6, with an 8-core processor, 8gb RAM, and 256gb storage - I have spare laptops with lower specs)
instead, it was planned obsolescence in two forms. OnePlus had stopped releasing security patches for it, and the battery had degraded significantly so that I got much less useful life before needing to recharge.
I could possibly run a custom ROM to deal with the first issue, but that's more hassle than I really wanted for my daily driver phone. I'm on-call for work periodically and need those alerts to get delivered reliably, so I have a low threshold for tolerating any wonkiness with custom ROMs.
so I bought a new phone, and the old one became e-waste. in a few years, the cycle will repeat again. phone hardware specs have mostly plateaued; it's been years since I wanted a phone upgrade for increased performance. I got a Google Pixel, in large part because they promise 5 years of security updates. the battery will probably degrade before then. and a battery replacement on this one is significantly more complicated. this makes the battery lifetime the limiting factor of the entire phone's lifetime for me.
I'm in favor of anything that reduces these planned obsolescence cycles. this regulation seems like a good step in that direction.
I agree that software obsolescence is a worse problem than the battery issue. Even if it's not something that users can do themselves, there is no such thing as a non-replacable battery. On the...
I agree that software obsolescence is a worse problem than the battery issue. Even if it's not something that users can do themselves, there is no such thing as a non-replacable battery. On the other hand I have seen iPads that still work and even have acceptable battery life but they can't access a lot of websites because not only are there no software updates for them, but they have no way to update the security certificates that those websites rely on. The EU would be better to enforce open hardware initiatives; that way it doesn't matter if the manufacturers want to end support, there's always going to be an option to continue using your hardware.
Oh hey! We're two sides of the same coin. Oddly enough, last year I upgraded... To a OnePlus 5. :v (It was my girlfriend's old phone, its battery had degraded much like yours, but... I pounced at...
Oh hey! We're two sides of the same coin. Oddly enough, last year I upgraded... To a OnePlus 5. :v
(It was my girlfriend's old phone, its battery had degraded much like yours, but... I pounced at the idea of saving it? I love little repair projects like this, so I ended up following the iFixit battery replacement guide, and I've been using it ever since. I've only ever had budget Android phones, so it was a significant improvement for me. I'm even typing on it right now!)
How concerned should I be with the lack of security upgrades? The phone has worked super well for my needs, despite only running OxygenOS 10.0.1. But, now I'm second-guessing myself, given that it was a big enough motivator to get you to ditch your OnePlus 6.
security and risk tolerance isn't a one-size-fits-all thing, so your mileage may vary...but for me personally, I'm not comfortable with having my daily driver phone running EOL'd software with no...
How concerned should I be with the lack of security upgrades?
security and risk tolerance isn't a one-size-fits-all thing, so your mileage may vary...but for me personally, I'm not comfortable with having my daily driver phone running EOL'd software with no security patches available.
CVE-2023-20951 and CVE-2023-20954: both are critical RCE vulnerabilities in the System component. The most severe vulnerability could lead to remote code execution with no additional execution privileges needed. User interaction is not needed for exploitation.
those specific vulnerabilities are Android 11 and later, so your device was actually unaffected because it's running Android 10. but that's an example of the type of vulnerability that can exist and need urgent patching.
modern smartphones run extraordinarily complicated software stacks, and in some ways are more exposed security-wise than a Windows/Mac/Linux desktop or laptop - if someone sends you an SMS or MMS message for example, your phone downloads and parses the message in the background, with no interaction from you required. your desktop or laptop generally isn't exposed to the whole world in the same way (and even then, I also wouldn't recommend running a Windows version that's EOL'd and doesn't get security patches)
and that worst-case scenario has happened before - from 2015:
The vulnerability affects about 950 million Android phones and tablets, according to Joshua Drake, vice president of platform research and exploitation at security firm Zimperium. It resides in "Stagefright," an Android code library that processes several widely used media formats. The most serious exploit scenario is the use of a specially modified text message using the multimedia message (MMS) format. All an attacker needs is the phone number of the vulnerable Android phone. From there, the malicious message will surreptitiously execute malicious code on the vulnerable device with no action required by the end user and no indication that anything is amiss.
Thanks for the nudge! I'm going to start looking into custom ROMs again. (I used to dabble, but I noticed the wonkiness you describe, so I've stuck with the phone's default OS in recent years....
Thanks for the nudge! I'm going to start looking into custom ROMs again.
(I used to dabble, but I noticed the wonkiness you describe, so I've stuck with the phone's default OS in recent years. But, now I have a bit of motivation to play around with them again. Thanks!)
I'm in the same boat now. I still run a pixel 2, but it no longer gets security updates. Battery life isn't as good as when I first got it, but it will get me through the day with a quick charge...
I'm in the same boat now. I still run a pixel 2, but it no longer gets security updates. Battery life isn't as good as when I first got it, but it will get me through the day with a quick charge here and there (which is good enough for me). I thought about jumping on the 7a, but I'm probably just going to wait for the 8 at this point.
I do hate the idea of replacing a (for me) perfectly good piece of hardware, but that's just where we're at, I suppose.
When the law says "easily replaceable," it doesn't necessarily mean that the batteries can be swapped within seconds like old phones. It means making the process of replacing batteries easier. Not...
In a sweeping new change to a previous law, MEPs voted 587 to nine to force all gadgets to have easily replaceable batteries. When we say “easily,” we mean it: MEPs say this should not require special tools, which means no adhesives.
Without adhesives, OEMs from Apple to Google to Samsung will need to drastically change how they design phones. The “glass sandwich” design method would almost certainly need to stop unless companies could devise a way to keep the parts connected without adhesives.
When the law says "easily replaceable," it doesn't necessarily mean that the batteries can be swapped within seconds like old phones. It means making the process of replacing batteries easier. Not using adhesives and allowing owners to open the back of their phones, and replace the battery without specialized tools. (screwdrivers are not specialized tools). This is to make the devices (not just phones) more repairable and reduce e-waste.
I'm torn on this. On one hand, I do like the sleek designs that phones have with glass backings. To me, they feel a bit more premium, and I really like the way they look. However, I do like the...
I'm torn on this. On one hand, I do like the sleek designs that phones have with glass backings. To me, they feel a bit more premium, and I really like the way they look. However, I do like the idea of swapping a battery out when my old one stops holding charge, and I like having my phone for as long as possible. Hopefully this is possible without going back to plastic backs, the last phone I had with a removable battery was a Galaxy S5.
While i can't say for sure whether its the best option or not. I am currently using a Fairphone. A modular smartphone and its honestly great knowing that if the battery goes bad i can replace it...
While i can't say for sure whether its the best option or not. I am currently using a Fairphone. A modular smartphone and its honestly great knowing that if the battery goes bad i can replace it myself easily. The battery isn't the best i admit but to be honest, no phone of mine after a year can get a full day on a battery if i actively use it.
There are a lot of reasons that phone's have swapped to a non-user replaceable battery beyond just greed and waterproofness. It allows phones to be lighter and slimmer (I know, I know, this doesn't matter to a lot of the people here, but it obviously matters to some people or companies wouldn't keep marketing it as a selling point.)
It basically eliminates the metal/glass design of most modern phones, leading to major redesigns of pretty much everything to do with the phones case. And not only this, modern phone batteries aren't just blocks, they're designed in weird shapes to fit in the most possible storage into the limited phone space (seen here) and this is one of the more tame shapes.
I'm not saying this because I'm pro non-removable battery, I'm just saying its not going to just be sunshine and roses for everything if this change is forced.
Everyone marvels at their slick, new all glass and metal, beautiful phones that cost millions to design; then slaps a case over them and covers it all up. I never see anyone walking around with a naked phone. 90% of the internal battery issue relates to people being more likely to just buy a new phone than paying $175 to replace the battery.
Personally I've been running caseless for around the past 5 years now because I got tired of not seeing my phone. Perhaps surprisingly it's worked out well, with drops having been rare and the only wear my phones accumulating having been from friction, like how one of the frosted corners on the back of an iPhone 11 wore smooth, but that's it.
I paid 175 for my new phone. It has user replaceable battery. Nokia G22. It's by no means to tier, quite the opposite. But it can do everything I need. And it's the first phone that I had that has QR code to iFixit guides for it right on the box!
You are absolutely right about people biastung aout their sleek phones and then shoving them into cheap plastic enclosures...
on the other side of the spectrum, I have a $1200 2021 flagship Asus phone with the same amount of ram as my Laptop that can tackle any game at max settings or emulation that is available. I can understand that it probably needs to be a sealed design in order to house 16GB of RAM, 6000 MAh battery, 2 USB C ports, and all other bells and whistles (most of which I use as a power user)... water proofness not being a part of those bells.
But on the other hand it is currently in the shop for repairs for around that magical $175 price point (mostly for expedited shipping). Only real regret is not buying proper insurance to save on that dang shipping cost.
The thing about marketting is that it becomes the talking point about why they bought their new phone. A self-re-enforcing thing that does not convey value intrinsicly.
I for one can't wait for the death of ultrathin. I would like 5.6 in screens with a touch of thickness so my hands can actually hold it without having to buy accessories anymore.
I'm replying from Nokia G22. It can be done and it can be done in cheap phone. There is no reason for expensive ones to not be able to swap battery. Obviously not as user-friendly as good old Nokia 3310 was, but still better tha having everythun glued together and using million of different screws in one phone.
I get you message and I understand you are not defending current state. I just wanted to say that it clearly can be done while maintaining modern phone properties (my phone is still pretty slim; what is poibt of makibg it slim when mot people use some kind of case anyway?).
To be honest, for all my time owning cell phones, the only time when I had problems with batteries was when I cheaped out on my phone. Buying higher quality but still relatively inexpensive phones solved that problem for me.
Besides that, swapping batteries in a modern environment isn't really convenient with today's technology. First you have to wait for the thing to shut down completely, then you have to open a very fiddly back up, do the replacement, reinstall the fiddly back, hold the button, and wait an excessively long time for it to boot up all the way. And then there's no dedicated charger for the kind of battery that goes in phones, so you're stuck with a useless discharged battery which you may or may not remember to swap out when you get home to recharge it, which may leave your phone unoperable for a while if it had discharged the battery all the way. And then of course, all the times you have opened and closed the back of it wears out the fiddly part of the back. All of this combined means an increase of e-waste.
It seems to me that one good battery is worth more than two bad batteries.
Back in the dumbphone days (which I am not at all looking to go back to - they were dark times), even my cheap and hand-me-down phones had batteries that would last for at least a day - often more.
If I understand the reasoning behind this law correctly, swapping the battery is more about extending the longevity of your device. Once your battery is degraded, you can just swap it out yourself. That's not something you have to do daily. More like once every few years. You can still use a power bank for your daily needs, if you like.
The article @cokedragon posted is limited. Here's a better write-up:
https://www.pcmag.com/news/eu-smartphones-must-have-user-replaceable-batteries-by-2027
and
I’m aware of that but the parent poster sounded like they were talking about easily accessible batteries that could be swapped mid-day. That’s a bit of a different ball park.
(Paging @daychilde who made a similar response)
My mistake! I'm half-asleep at the moment...
My phone has a replaceable battery, and I would be able to switch in a new battery in about 2 minutes (I literally just tried doing it, for real). Is 2 minutes really too long to have your phone not working?
Yes, there are. Or there would be if phone companies started manufacturing phones with replaceable batteries. Back in the day, when replaceable batteries were more common, there were dedicated chargers for those batteries. And there will be again.
How so? What's getting thrown out?
Let's do a case study.
Recently, I was having a problem with my phone not charging properly. It's an older phone, and it's been in service for a few years, so I figured the battery was wearing out. Now... bear with me... I had forgotten that it has a removeable battery because this is so uncommon these days. So, I actually started researching possible replacement phones - until I remembered that I can just replace the battery.
In that scenario, having a dodgy battery that couldn't be replaced would have resulted in me having to replace the whole phone. However, because the battery is replaceable, I get to keep the phone itself, and only replace the battery. To me, that seems like less e-waste.
(By the way... the problem turned out to be the charging cable, which was an easy fix.)
Even if I had a separate device for charging batteries, that device would stay in service for many years, charging many different batteries over that time. It wouldn't get thrown out every time I replace my phone, or even when I replace my battery.
Man I seem to have rustled some feathers with this comment.
First of all, I didn’t say it was painful. Just that it was inconvenient. Of course 2 minutes isn’t a lot of time, but it’s a lot more than the 20 to 30 seconds it would take for a dumb phone.
It’s honestly a stretch to believe that just because the battery is replaceable there will be chargers for it. History has shown that to be untrue. There are still many phones being used right now with user-swapable batteries that don’t fit into any commercially available chargers. I literally cannot remember any cell phone that used a battery that had a standalone charger. I think you are also forgetting that most phones don’t use standardized batteries so it’s not like you can buy one cell phone battery charger and it will work for everyone’s batteries.
The e-waste I was talking about was the extra batteries. In an ideal world they would all be recycled, but we do not live in an ideal world. If there were dedicated battery chargers they would also become e-waste when the next generation uses different batteries.
And as I mentioned in a different comment, there is no such thing as a non-replaceable battery. It may just not be easy to replace it.
I assume you are under the impression that I am against this legislation or the idea of user-replaceable batteries. I assure you that I am not. My wish is to not need to replace the battery. Referencing yet another comment I made earlier, I think a bigger problem with cell phones is software support and hardware lockouts that turn them into expensive paperweights.
2 minutes to swap a battery isn't a big inconvenience. The way you wrote about it, you made swapping batteries sound like some huge ordeal. It's not.
I lived through that history. Even if there weren't chargers for phone batteries, they could still be charged inside the phone itself. Either way, they're chargeable.
Imagine two phones:
My Samsung Galaxy Folder (released 2017), with a replaceable battery.
A Samsung Galaxy S8 (also released 2017), with a non-replaceable battery.
Now imagine that both phones' batteries wear out. Which device will create more e-waste?
With the Galaxy Folder, we can replace the battery, and keep the phone itself. The e-waste generated is one battery.
With the Galaxy S8, we have to replace the whole phone. The e-waste generated is one phone unit, as well as one battery.
Phones with non-replaceable batteries end up generating more e-waste than phones with replaceable batteries.
I'm not making any such assumption. I'm merely addressing the points you raised regarding replaceable batteries:
They're not as much hassle as you made out.
They generate less e-waste than non-replaceable batteries.
I honestly do not understand why you are arguing with me about this. I didn’t write any of this to start a fight, I merely wanted to express an opinion.
In any case I find it extremely distressing that you would misrepresent the things I am saying to such a strong degree. I’m sorry you got the wrong idea about the inconvenience of swapping batteries. I have no idea how you possibly could think that I am assuming that replaceable batteries would be non-rechargeable. And you completely missed my point that even if a phone isn’t meant to be user-serviceable that it you can still have the battery replaced.
I am done here; this is my last reply.
You stated this:
I disagree with that. Simple.
Bye!
I get where you're coming from. For perspective, I'm still almost entirely on the other side of this.
My phone pulls alternate duties as a cycling computer, hiking GPS, kayaking camera, and work device in environments ranging from heavy industry to fields in the absolute middle of nowhere. I wouldn't trade away an IP68 rating for anything with a slide-off plastic battery cover, especially if I'm still lugging around some kind extra battery with me from time to time. And on the topic of spare batteries, I'd still prefer a generic, USB-charged, Anker-style, lithium ion battery pack that can charge damn near anything, over something proprietary.
I absolutely believe in the right to repair, but I'm not sure that means I need, or even want, the ability to repair and/or replace every aspect of something myself if it means mandating design choices by law. If the only thing keeping me from making the repair myself is access to the right tools and experience, I don't mind going to the person who has said tools and experience. What I mind is not having options.
Back when I was working in an office I would have killed for a big, fat, phone that'd go three days without needing to be charged. A Motorola StarTac with a big ol' tumor of a battery... drool.
My 2014 Galaxy S5 has a headphone jack, replaceable battery, an SD card slot, and an IP67 rating.
The primary differentiator between IP67 and IP68 is that an IP67 phone is rated to sit in 3 meters of water up to 30 minutes, and IP68 can sit in up to 5 meters of water up to 30 minutes.
Unless you're regularly leaving your phone in deep pools of water, the difference is negligible.
Eh, my point wasn't really about any specific rating; rather, I'd prefer environmental resiliency, even if the trade-off was a non-removable battery. Of course some devices offer both.
Offering both means it's not a tradeoff that needs to be made. It means that one compny has cut corners to avoid doing both. :)
The kind of thing that laws like this really help to rectify.
I’m not sure I agree with that entirely, but it’s still a good point.
An insane law to say the least and I'm interested in how this informs smartphone design going forward. Thoughts?
(Also feel free to move to ~news if it's more at home there!)
I think there are at least two major phone design elements that will change for sold-in-EU smartphones will have to do:
Ditch any pretense at being fully waterproof. There's no way having a user serviceable battery compartment door is compatible with actual immersion waterproofing, particularly without adhesives.
Phones will ship with less battery capacity because internal space will need to be spent on bracing and other strengthening to compensate for the battery compartment being rugged and batteries being larger to onboard control chips for battery safety.
Is that the end of the world? Probably not; but it does perpetuate global phone function/feature differences depending on geographic region.
The Samsung Galaxy S5 had a removable battery and IP67 water and dust resistance, which isn't water "proof", but neither are modern phones.
Yeah I think the critical difference is legitimately around 'full immersion'. Most Japanese phones are that way by default, there have only been very few US market phones are like that. The issue mostly revolves around what kind of guarantees makers are willing to publish versus practical expenditure on engineering to make something close to it work. We had been trending in that unibody, no ports/panels direction, a solid 'brick' of hardware; but this will undo a lot of that, and probably reopen the conversation about other user serviceable things.
The S5’s IP67 is already rated for full immersion, at 1 meter. 68 is rated for over a meter at a manufacturer specified depth. Samsung’s move away from the (vastly superior imo) plastic removable back designs seemed to be more informed by a criticism of their phones not feeling “premium” than anything else, which I personally find ridiculous. It’s like saying a drill isn’t premium and should be made of glass instead.
I replied elsewhere, but I still have my S5. Battery finally went while I was using it as an always-on server. I'll probably grab a replacement and use as a solar-powered server at some point.
And IP67 is supposed to handle full submersion up to 3 meters.
Few phones are waterproof. Many are water-resistant.
Fairphone 4 has replaceable parts including the battery, and meaningful water resistance.
And to respond to @cokedragon: What is insane to me, is building and selling mass consumer products that are hard or impossible to repair. It's just not a sustainable path to continue on a planet with finite resources.
Regarding the second point made I would feel inclined to offer that in my anecdotal experience of the time back when android smartphones widely had easily replacable batteries it wasn't unheard of for 3rd party companies to offer larger batteries with custom back to accomdate the added bulk. Sure they'd give your phone a thicker profile sure but just having that option was a very welcome option for power users.
I think I'd prefer the possibility of replacing a battery when it begins to degrade or swapping it out for a larger battery if the standard offering wasn't enough over what we have today where the only quick and easy way of dealing with a degrading battery is to just buy a new phone, and the only easy way to get a larger battery is to sure enough... buy a new phone.
That's a very legitimate take. One of the big reasons they've moved away from that is because unibody phones are harder for average users to break at the outset. Clearly when they're broken, they're far harder to fix. The critical cross section of those two imperatives has swung too far one way.
What if we use like, really strong magnets
Hope you don’t plan on keeping credit cards in the same pocket then.
Do magnets have any effect on the chip? While I know it can affect the mag strip on the back, anecdotally, I haven't seen them used in like 20 years, and personally I have the one on my card disabled for security purposes. (I can enable it with an app on my phone)
No chip should be fine. But gift cards and metro cards (depending on the metro system) can still get wiped since they still tend to use the magnets. Though I guess now I see more gift cards just have a code you can scan.
Alternatively maybe using magnets in a more clever way, as a tool rather than the actual mechanism. (i.e. having the back locked in place mechanically, but such that by using a magnet it allows for something inside to be unlinked, allowing you to open the casing). This would need a "one-way" closing design where it snaps in easily, but then opening it would require the use of a magnet.
Magnets, how do they even work?
Practically and very sadly, though, it really wouldn't be a good choice for a lot of reasons.
There's no way the phone manufacturers will make two ranges of phones: one for Europe and one for the rest of the world. They'll just make one range of phones, that meets the EU's requirements, and sell that range around the world.
The article even points out that this will happen with the EU's new laws about standard charging cables, and it will happen with replaceable batteries as well.
Realistically I don't know how they make a phone that has a replaceable battery and also meets, say, the Japanese market's standard demand for full-immersion water resistance. Sure, it's technically possible, but the phones are not gonna look the same/be appealing.
Absolutely willing to put up with that, 100%, if it means that I'll be able to extend the life of older devices without having to pay a technician for it (or having to purchase specialised tools by myself and risk making a boo-boo).
But I do wonder if there will be a Brussels effect here too. Perhaps to avoid double R&D costs.
Why is it insane to require manufacturers to make a device that can have parts replaced when they become faulty, rather than having to throw out the whole device because of one faulty part?
No, I don't know what your argument is about, because you didn't say anything beyond "an insane law to say the least". I can't read your mind; I don't know why you think this law is insane.
Good to know. So, the EU is going to force phone manufacturers to allow consumers to replace their own batteries, without having to take the device back to a shop where they'll be overcharged for the service? Again: how is that insane? It seems like common sense to me.
"No tools" seems a bit much. Is there anything wrong with needing a screwdriver?
Standardizing on a few sizes of batteries would be nice.
This might affect how waterproof they are.
"No special tools". A screwdriver would almost certainly be OK to require, no one is defining that as a special tool.
Depends on the screwdriver.
Yes, Apple, I'm talking about your BS Pentalobe screws.
If the screwdriver is at least a 1:1 ratio of vodka to juice, it should be strong enough.
But seriously, I would really like the removable batteries to come back, but this thread has really got me thinking about if why I originally did is still a valid reason. I mean, it is because my Razer Phone 2 is still the best phone I've ever used, but its battery life took a dump (and unrelated, I rooted it so it had no updates and slowly became dysfunctional, which I suspect started weighing in on the battery and that it was old... and I am still too lazy to swap it to Lineage OS).
I don't know that this was their intent, but "no tools" would allow for casually swapping to a second battery, mid-day, while out and about.
Back go the Galaxy S5 bandaid back and charge port flap?
Haha, god I hope not. I still can't fathom how Apple's going to work this into their design language. Might just start to see special devices just for the European market.
This specifically hurts Apple more than basically anyone else because, AFAIK, they don't make region specific hardware now anyway.
The iPhone 14 is eSIM only in the US, but still has a physical SIM tray here in the EU, so that would be one such difference.
Oh that's interesting. I assume that's also an EU regulation?
I think it's more to do with lack of eSIM availability. I can't speak for the entirety of the EU, but where I live I can only think of one carrier that supports it at the moment.
Oh that's wild. Is it a technological limitation or guided by something else?
If I had to guess there's probably a lot of legacy infrastructure at play... coupled with a dash of incompetency!
Oh I love me some good structural incompetency in utilities!
It doesn't hurt them if they make their removable-battery versions available worldwide!
I'm actually interested in how Apple will approach this design challenge.
Maybe Apple will come out with a ruggedized phone and that's the only one they sell in Europe?
Yeah, just having some fun. I owned one and it was the ugliest phone I've ever had.
I can understand them wanting to do this to fight back against planned obsolescence but this is an extreme measure. I feel like a reasonable middle ground would be at least allowing tools. Like, humanity invented tools for a reason! If you can afford an iPhone, you can afford a torx screwdriver.
They are allowing tools, you're just not allowed to require "special" tools (I.e. proprietary crap or $100k devices).
I mean, that's significantly more reasonable than OP implied... thanks for the clarification.
This is great if it forces phones in the US to follow(I'm sure it will), I'm just happy because it means less e waste and hopefully no more glass backs. It's so stupid to have something that's so breakable cost so much. It's like they design most phones to not live in people's pockets.
Am I the only person who’s never cracked a screen?
No. I am not a well coordinated person by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't imagine being able to break phones as easily as some people do.
I think that most of the industry has moved on to super strong specialty glass, which is nice, but we already had perfectly acceptable polycarbonate screens that cost practically nothing to produce, but people hated them for some reason. I could only guess they put their phones in their back pockets alongside their collection of loose screws and nails.
Even my fancy glass screen has ample small scratches after 3 years of use. The ideal is to have it be perfect and unchanging. I’m fine with the trend of tougher glass.
I honestly don’t think it really matters too much in the long run. There was one time when it was a point of contention but now it’s basically a standard feature.
All it takes is a few unlucky drops to concrete.
Got my S21 scuffed up from one where it slid downhill a bit with a tiny piece of gravel between the phone and ground.
That was me as well until recently. I was doing a woodworking project outdoors, phone fell out of my pocket facedown onto a particularly jagged rock.
I'm not cracking screens, I own a farm so I'm pretty rough on my phones, but I use my phones for around 5 years before I get a new one. My previous phone was a pixel xl 2 battery finally died. Prior to that was a nexus 6, neither had cracked screens...but this new phone note10+ second day I had it, even with a OtterBox case...back glass cracked. It's pointless, and I'd probably still be using my pixel xl2 if it had a easy to replace battery.
The only time I ever cracked a screen was when I handed it to a girl to give me her number and she dropped it as she handed it back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
User replaceable batteries will probably mean more e-waste TBH. People will be likely to replace their batteries more often and also buy cheaper batteries with shorter usable lives.
I'd say that's better than people tossing away the entire phone though. I buy all of my phones second hand off Swappa or FB marketplace, but most people just buy one, use it for a year or so and buy another tossing the old one away.
Pretty much all the manufacturers and phone carriers in the US have buyback programs. If the phone works, is still supported software, and isn’t too badly damaged cosmetically you get money when you trade it in.
And what do they do with them? Pretty sure it's cheaper to trash them than recycle them
Refurb and resell. If it’s can’t be refurbed recover the usable materials. Lithium from batteries is basically infinitely recyclable if it can be recovered. As can the gold and copper elements of the circuits.
Once you recover the battery and the glass you’ve basically salvaged like 90% of the phone by weight.
I feel like you're more optimistic than I am about this lol
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63245150
5 billion phones tossed away in 2022 alone :(
Those are mostly gonna be old, cheap phones that don’t have a long tail of support. But even then, they’re valuable enough that they can be salvaged out if scrapyards.
This doesn't make it better though.
The point is, you’re going to see more such waste rather than less as a result of this directive.
my most recent smartphone upgrade was driven not by performance or features - it was still plenty fast for what I needed. (OnePlus 6, with an 8-core processor, 8gb RAM, and 256gb storage - I have spare laptops with lower specs)
instead, it was planned obsolescence in two forms. OnePlus had stopped releasing security patches for it, and the battery had degraded significantly so that I got much less useful life before needing to recharge.
I could possibly run a custom ROM to deal with the first issue, but that's more hassle than I really wanted for my daily driver phone. I'm on-call for work periodically and need those alerts to get delivered reliably, so I have a low threshold for tolerating any wonkiness with custom ROMs.
and the battery was kinda sorta replaceable, but clearly not meant to be done by end-users.
so I bought a new phone, and the old one became e-waste. in a few years, the cycle will repeat again. phone hardware specs have mostly plateaued; it's been years since I wanted a phone upgrade for increased performance. I got a Google Pixel, in large part because they promise 5 years of security updates. the battery will probably degrade before then. and a battery replacement on this one is significantly more complicated. this makes the battery lifetime the limiting factor of the entire phone's lifetime for me.
I'm in favor of anything that reduces these planned obsolescence cycles. this regulation seems like a good step in that direction.
I agree that software obsolescence is a worse problem than the battery issue. Even if it's not something that users can do themselves, there is no such thing as a non-replacable battery. On the other hand I have seen iPads that still work and even have acceptable battery life but they can't access a lot of websites because not only are there no software updates for them, but they have no way to update the security certificates that those websites rely on. The EU would be better to enforce open hardware initiatives; that way it doesn't matter if the manufacturers want to end support, there's always going to be an option to continue using your hardware.
Oh hey! We're two sides of the same coin. Oddly enough, last year I upgraded... To a OnePlus 5. :v
(It was my girlfriend's old phone, its battery had degraded much like yours, but... I pounced at the idea of saving it? I love little repair projects like this, so I ended up following the iFixit battery replacement guide, and I've been using it ever since. I've only ever had budget Android phones, so it was a significant improvement for me. I'm even typing on it right now!)
How concerned should I be with the lack of security upgrades? The phone has worked super well for my needs, despite only running OxygenOS 10.0.1. But, now I'm second-guessing myself, given that it was a big enough motivator to get you to ditch your OnePlus 6.
security and risk tolerance isn't a one-size-fits-all thing, so your mileage may vary...but for me personally, I'm not comfortable with having my daily driver phone running EOL'd software with no security patches available.
from March:
those specific vulnerabilities are Android 11 and later, so your device was actually unaffected because it's running Android 10. but that's an example of the type of vulnerability that can exist and need urgent patching.
modern smartphones run extraordinarily complicated software stacks, and in some ways are more exposed security-wise than a Windows/Mac/Linux desktop or laptop - if someone sends you an SMS or MMS message for example, your phone downloads and parses the message in the background, with no interaction from you required. your desktop or laptop generally isn't exposed to the whole world in the same way (and even then, I also wouldn't recommend running a Windows version that's EOL'd and doesn't get security patches)
and that worst-case scenario has happened before - from 2015:
Thanks for the nudge! I'm going to start looking into custom ROMs again.
(I used to dabble, but I noticed the wonkiness you describe, so I've stuck with the phone's default OS in recent years. But, now I have a bit of motivation to play around with them again. Thanks!)
I'm in the same boat now. I still run a pixel 2, but it no longer gets security updates. Battery life isn't as good as when I first got it, but it will get me through the day with a quick charge here and there (which is good enough for me). I thought about jumping on the 7a, but I'm probably just going to wait for the 8 at this point.
I do hate the idea of replacing a (for me) perfectly good piece of hardware, but that's just where we're at, I suppose.
When the law says "easily replaceable," it doesn't necessarily mean that the batteries can be swapped within seconds like old phones. It means making the process of replacing batteries easier. Not using adhesives and allowing owners to open the back of their phones, and replace the battery without specialized tools. (screwdrivers are not specialized tools). This is to make the devices (not just phones) more repairable and reduce e-waste.
I'm torn on this. On one hand, I do like the sleek designs that phones have with glass backings. To me, they feel a bit more premium, and I really like the way they look. However, I do like the idea of swapping a battery out when my old one stops holding charge, and I like having my phone for as long as possible. Hopefully this is possible without going back to plastic backs, the last phone I had with a removable battery was a Galaxy S5.
While i can't say for sure whether its the best option or not. I am currently using a Fairphone. A modular smartphone and its honestly great knowing that if the battery goes bad i can replace it myself easily. The battery isn't the best i admit but to be honest, no phone of mine after a year can get a full day on a battery if i actively use it.
Kinda cool