Tag Use
Let's talk about what tags we should be using and how they should be used. For those of you who haven't yet read it here is the doc page on tags.
Here's what I'm looking at so far:
Talk: I removed the talk, discussion, and conversation tags from the topics in ~talk in accordance with "Don't add a tag that's the same or very similar to the group that you're posting in." If you're in ~talk of course you're having a discussion or conversation. (There are exceptions that are about conversation such as "How do you discuss open minded topics with close minded people?"). I tagged some "How was your weekend" type topics with casual conversation.
What do you think about talk and/or discussion tags in other groups?
Question: As I understand it, question should be ask Update: done
Meta: I would define meta as topics about the site or ~ the topic is posted in. Since ~tildes is entirely meta, meta is redundant here. Most of the meta topics elsewhere are about the ~ they are in. As an example of something I think is mistagged, I wouldn't tag the ~lgbt introduction topic meta since it isn't about the ~ . Update: removed meta from ~tildes topics.
I wanted to get some feedback before I continue so I don't make a mistake unilaterally retagging something that I shouldn't.
What are your thoughts on these tags? What other tags do we need to talk about? What strategies are you using for tagging and retagging?
Some stats for you all:
Number of distinct tags used so far: 19,250
Number of tags that are used more than once: 2,134
Number of tags that are used more than 5 times: 543
Top 10 most used tags: ask, politics, usa, australia, privacy, daily discussion, discussioon, survey, music, trump
(Disclaimer: I'm not pulling this from the DB, I'm collecting it; I could be wrong somewhere.)
Yes! I knew all my posting would pay off! We're top 10! Woo-hoo!
Haha I wondered about who was posting those but didn't look. Now I know!
Is this like one of those instances where the Google top suggested search has a typo because everyone just clicked on it without changing it? Or does “discussioon” mean something different?
Haha, I might have typo'd it when copying into the comment, I'll have to check.
Maybe using
challengeas a standard tag would be helpful. For example,challenge.programming, and it could even be applied to, for example, writing prompts.I did that in a couple of groups, starting with ~news, but I didn't realise there was a shortcut to find "us" tags across the whole site.
This comment makes me wish there was a save feature built in.
It's in development
I'm interested in one particular tag in one group, but 90% of that group's content doesn't interest me. So, I created the link "https://tildes.net/~thatgroup?tag=what_i_like" and saved it as a favourite in my browser.
Every time I see someone asking for a 'save' feature, I look at my browser favourites and wonder why that doesn't work for other people.
Could there be some way to automatically change tags? This topic in ~games is tagged as 'suggestions' when the docs seems to say that it should be tagged as 'recommendations'. Would there be an issue with automatically replacing the tag 'suggestions' with 'recommendations'? This could clear up a lot of issues regarding tags (at least for common substitutions), especially if there was something signalling the change to the author and a feature of the eventual search system to apply substitutions to search criteria.
Was unaware of that.
I didn't think so, but now I'm not so sure.
Perhaps a better solution would be to suggest(recommend?) substitutions particular to each group instead of forcing them. Maybe even add some guidelines on which to use.
Yeah, tag autocomplete will help with some versions of this for sure ("us" vs "usa"). Currently though it wouldn't do anything for this particular issue ("suggestions" vs "recommendations"). Perhaps in the future we could use an index of common synonyms to resolve some of the more semantically complex substitutions? I'm using these autocomplete styles as the foundation for tildes tags. I could imagine a system where we add a little warning icon and/or some text when a word with a more commonly used synonym (specifically in that group) is added to the input, with a button to swap them.
I think they're definitely distinct. Definition-wise:
Suggestion: an idea or plan put forward for consideration.
Recommendation: a suggestion or proposal as to the best course of action, especially one put forward by an authoritative body.
So they're similar, but distinct from each other.
I make suggestions that are short of recommendations with some frequency (usually in the form of "one recommendation and two alternate possibilities").
One recommends movies and suggests site features.
Oh nice, I was looking for a place to ask this:
For the rule about not having tags that are about the same as the name of the group, does that include groups with multiple wide topics? Like, I get that most everything in ~movies would have the "movies" tag so we shouldn't have it there, but what about ~anime? Should "anime" and "manga" be tagged? It seems like that would be the most common thing to use tags for in that group, but that rule suggests we shouldn't. Should ~games have "video games" and "tabletop games" tags? I imagine there's other situations with things that are equally related to the name of the group itself but are worth being able to filter.
If a topic is in ~anime, it doesn't need an "anime" tag as well: that's redundant. I'm not sure of the difference between anime and manga, but if they represent different concepts, or if one is a subset of the other, then we need to use "manga" on relevant topics.
Yes! Eventually, ~games will be separated into ~games.computer and ~games.tabletop. Maybe the relevant tags are just "computer" and "tabletop" if the topics are already in ~games, but they should definitely be tagged separately.
I'd say it's about the same split as video games and tabletop games, or even further apart. Anime are cartoons and manga are comic books. They're lumped together because the audience and other communities all group themselves together, but they're different enough that whatever decision applies to that game situation would only make sense to apply to ~anime. Looking at the description of each might make the comparison a little clearer:
Naming the group ~anime naturally causes issues like this, though I understand it since something like ~japanesemedia sounds awkward and isn't as immediately recognizable as ~anime (and is also reducing a whole nation's cultural output to one subculture within it).
A possible workaround, if any other users of ~anime could chime in, would be to start tagging a level down. It isn't quite as clear or kind for filters, but tagging all anime "tv" or "movie" depending on the form along with the "manga" tag might do the job.
FWIW I'm on board with what you say about ~games, I'm just curious if going through and adding that would be considered abuse by @Deimos since it's rubbing up against the rule about group name tags. I've been a bit hesitant for that reason.
I'm confused. How is using "computer games" and "tabletop games" rubbing up against any rule? What rule? How is it abuse? Huh?
I think they are talking about this rule:
But that rule doesn't mean tags can't contain the name of the group.
gamesin ~games is redundant.computer gamesin ~games is not.My question mostly rests on ~anime, then. An "anime" tag in ~anime is no more redundant than "computer games" in ~games in the sense that they're both top level kinds of content in a group that allows both, the naming of ~anime just makes it weird.
Actually, an "anime" tag in ~anime is redundant because the tag is exactly the same as the group name, and therefore provides no extra information or utility. For example, I've seen people tag posts in ~news with "news" and posts in ~talk with "talk". In all these cases, the tag adds no information, does not differentiate the topic in any way, and does not provide any utility to tilders.
If a topic is in ~anime, we'll assume it's about anime by default: that tag is implicit in the group name. The tags "computer games" and "tabletop games" differentiate these two subsets of games within the ~games group. They're therefore useful. However, an "anime" tag in ~anime isn't useful.
If, as you said above, you assume that the group name ~anime is wrong, and should be treated as equivalent to something like ~japanesemedia, with two major sub-categories of "anime" and "manga", I can see why you think "anime" and "manga" tags are equivalent to the "computer games" and
"tabletop games" tags in ~games. However, that's not currently the case. The group name is ~anime, which means most people will assume it's about anime by default, so an "anime" tag doesn't add anything useful - whereas a "manga" tag does.
It seems like the ideal answer to your question is for @Deimos to rename ~anime to ~japanesemedia (or something similar), which would then enable the correct use of "anime" and "manga" tags in that group. But, until then, an "anime" tag in ~anime is redundant.
But ~anime is already officially split the same way. The description makes the same separation, I'm not only pulling from what I think would make a better title for the group. There's nothing in the description (or the actual use of the group) for ~talk or ~news that would not be...talking or news. However, there's a load of content (at some point, possibly even the majority) that fits in ~anime that is not anime.
As for practical utility, put it this way: There is no reason you would ever visit ~news and filter out "news," so the tag is redundant. But there are a ton of situations where you would use ~anime and not want to see anime.
I have to admit: I'm a little out of my depth because I don't really watch or read anime or manga, and I'm not subscribed to ~anime. I'm just reflecting your own descriptions back to you.
Also... I can't help you. If you truly believe the ~anime name is wrong (as indicated by the difficulty you're seeing of needing an "anime" tag in the ~anime group), the only person who can fix it is @Deimos. I've tagged him here, hoping he'll read this. However, if you feel strongly enough about it, I recommend you build a case for changing the group name. Maybe make a meta-post in ~anime itself, asking its subscribers how they feel about the name. Get a groundswell behind you, and then take your concerns to @Deimos.
EDIT: I was going to suggest you go back to the original suggestion for the ~anime group as a starting point for your campaign... but it was suggested by you!
Jumping in with my perspective as a certified Weeb:
An anime tag makes sense in ~anime, or at least something to denote animated media specifically.
In the subculture, "anime" is largely used as a catch-all term of convenience. If I ask somebody if they're into anime, there's an unspoken implication that I'm not just asking specifically about mainstream animated series, but also Original Video Animations, animated film, manga (i.e. comics), video games, visual novels, and other tangentially related media. ~anime doesn't need to be renamed because those in the know tend to already understand this. An anime tag — while it sounds redundant — would offer a great bit of specificity that would otherwise be lost.
I understand where you're coming from. However the way things ought to be according to logic or structure begin to fall apart a little bit when we take existing culture or colloquialisms into account. Inside the subculture, renaming ~anime to ~japanesemedia could be seen as just as unnecessary as those outside of the subculture would see the anime tag.
I don't know if changing the name is worth getting rid of the convenience, so I never really argued with it before. I'm not sure that not tagging it is the best way to go either, but at least I know what to go along with for a safe default, so thank you.
Sorry if I dragged you more into this conversation than you intended to be, though!
So I've got an interesting example I'd like some advice on: @Deimos posted the following in ~science: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/researcher-center-epic-fraud-remains-enigma-those-who-exposed-him
Tildes link: https://tildes.net/~science/58o/researcher_at_the_center_of_an_epic_fraud_remains_an_enigma_to_those_who_exposed_him
The original tags were "biology" and "research". I didn't think these were precise or searchable enough. The material concerns human biology as it relates to medicine, and involves decades-long research fraud, the tolerance of which is a subset of the sociology of scientific knowledge. I've re-tagged as I think appropriate for long-term searchability.
Tags serve two purposes:
they indicate demand for future sub-groups;
they're used for searching.
In the future, ~science will have sub-groups for the major branches of science: ~science.biology, ~science.physics, ~science.mathematics, and so on. In the meantime, if someone wants to see all topics about biology, they need a high-level "biology" tag. Using a "biology" tag on topics will also help indicate a demand for a sub-group about biology when the time comes to split ~science into sub-groups.
In addition, if someone's looking specifically for studies on bone science, they'll want an "osteology" tag.
We can have multiple tags on a topic, and there's nothing stopping us from using a combination of broad tags like "biology" and specific tags like "osteology" on a single topic.
I am wondering how people feel about
askandsurvey. They seem like the same thing to me in most cases, so maybe dropsurvey?That's my fault! I was discussing the use of the "ask" tag with Deimos a few weeks ago. I forget the details of the conversation, but I remember that the outcome was:
"ask" is for all questions;
"survey" is for the subset of questions asking "What's your favourite X?" and "What's the best/worst X?" - basically poll-type questions.
Thanks. I think it's probably pretty safe to drop ask when survey is present then.
Would it make more sense if these were presented as hierarchical/concatenated tags?
ask.survey
ask.help
ask.recommendations
They're all question posts, but they're different types of questions.
Yeah, I prefer this style.
Cool.
I think this might be the first instance of hierarchical tags that actually makes sense to me, and I just made it up on the spot, almost without thinking. They're implicit in Deimos' definitions, and it was almost obvious to me that this is how they should work.
Until now I haven't really "got" hierarchical tags. I've been seeing them around, and they don't make sense to me. Except now, these ones. Now, if only I could figure out why these tags make sense to me and the other ones I've seen don't...
I think
foo.barmakes sense ifbarclarifies what is meant byfoo, but not ifbaris it's own stand alone tag.surveyclarifies what kind ofaskit is, butaskis still the main tag.twitch.streamingshould be separate tags becausestreamingis a stand alone tag.Another way of saying it is that one tag should be one tag. A subtag just makes it more precise.
Yes! Thank you!
Uh-oh.
?
I don't think it should be that either.
streamingis a thing,twitchis a thing, they should be separate tags.Suppose someone makes a post comparing streaming on twitch with streaming on youtube. Using dotted tags they would have
streaming.twitchandstreaming.youtube. They have twostreamingtags, which is redundant. Someone looking for posts about youtube has to search forstreaming.youtubeandvideos.youtube. The same applies for people that want to filter outyoutube. If they usestreaming,twitch, andyoutubeas separate tags then people can search or filter each of those independently, or in any combination.But romance is a sub-category of fiction, along with sci-fi and mysteries and so on. ~fiction.romance and ~fiction.scifi and ~fiction.mystery make sense to me... now (I don't think they would have a few days ago).
:)
That's usually where the good ideas come from. ;)
haha, that's exactly how I felt when I saw them! They were just perfect.
From the docs:
It seems like it could be useful to have moderator-curated docs for specific tags be displayed when those tags are added to the tags field on a new post. That is, if I make a new topic and add the "ask" tag, once I've typed "ask,", tildes could display a short blurb explaining how that tag should be best used, which would allow me to decide whether to leave it on my post or not.
It could also be useful to have a moderator curated list of tags for the group that people can easily see and select when tagging.
I do remember that from a while ago, but not sure if it still applies. I personally like that idea of dropping ask whenever recommendations or survey is used.
It does still apply: the "ask"/"survey" definition is the one that Deimos & I came up with in our discussion a few weeks back (maybe longer?), and which he then added to the documentation - and, more importantly, I've seen Topic Logs showing that he has been applying these tags in this way.
From my understanding, survey is going to be the predominate tag that accompanies ask. It would make sense to drop the most common and then assume that ask without one of the other tags is that; however, I imagine that Deimos included it for filtering purposes.
This was the case back when we were first discussing tags, so not sure if we still need both for sure.
I support your idea of dropping the common.
I believe that was originally what was intended to be the difference for ask and survey, but honestly. I've been flip-flopping between which one to keep, so maybe something like survey for the specific cases it applies to, without adding ask. Ask for all other questions.
Just tried it out on ~games with a nintendo.switch tag. Shows up in both searches:
https://tildes.net/~games?tag=nintendo
https://tildes.net/~games?tag=nintendo.switch
Neat!
Another question I have is for the use of dot operator tags. For instance, this thread has
trigger.rape, should it also havetriggerto it? As filteringtriggerat the moment doesn't pick uptrigger.rapeso it would still appear in their feed.Yeah, I saw that the search grabbed it, but the filtering doesn't. Was requesting best practices for the site now. I know people are particular about their filters, especially when it comes to triggers.
If a post is generating a lot of controversial back and forth, should it be tagged
controversial?Why? What would that tag tell people? Why would people want to know that a topic is controversial?
I'm only asking because I see it a lot on reddit. It's kind of like a
triggertag, it lets people know there's likely to be some nasty fighting going on.So they can join in? :P
Or avoid, if so desired
It might be interesting if a controversial tag hid the vote count from that discussion and maybe sorted the comments sorted more randomly.