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What moderate countries are left to emigrate to?
I think I'm not the only one asking themselves, whether it's time to pack up and leave. But where to?
So for the sake of brainstorming I need your help. As for myself I'm willing to go basically anywhere as long as I can imagine a future there.
Edit: Since you all are getting caught up in telling me how naive/wrong/misguided I am, I'm boiling it down to one question:
What countries are not on the verge of descending into fascism and are accepting in some form or another of westerners moving there?
All I want is countries I can look into myself and give people in my spot something to look into, please for the love of all that is holy if you don't have anything positive to say, save it.
I'm loving it here in Sweden. The government is moving to the right in a way that is quite unsettling, but it's not as drastic and horrifying as the US by a longshot. Climate change will probably make the winters wetter and colder, but I grew up in Florida, if I can survive it you probably can too.
Immigration is getting harder. There are lots of
jobs in tech, tech companies who hire internationally when they are hiring (edited for clarity). I'm most familiar with video game development, and if you can snag one of them then you're golden. Otherwise getting a visa will be very difficult. The pay in the tech sector is mostly much lower than in the US, but cost of living here is also so much lower. We're in one of the most expensive apartments in our city and it's less than we paid for a much worse apartment in a very dangerous area in Florida. Groceries cost roughly the same. Electricity is way cheaper, less than $50 a month. You don't need a car and bus tickets are very affordable. Healthcare is free, that one was a massive savings for us. The healthcare is also much better than in America. The doctors have time to talk to you, they're not rushing you out so they can chart your notes and move on to the next paying customer. I have extensive experience with both Healthcare systems and am happy to elaborate.Everyone has been very welcoming. Talking to strangers isn't really done, but there are lots of other ways to make friends and we've done well in that arena. There's also lots of city-sponsored programs for helping immigrants get acclimated.
As a westerner with modest savings, if you can get a job in tech, you'll live very comfortably. 5 weeks vacation, a comfortable retirement, a life where your needs are met and then some. It won't be lavish, but that's also sort of culturally frowned upon here.
The job market is bad. You might be able to get a tech job if you're a skilled senior, but then you'll earn way less than basically in any other western country because of progressive taxation. Everyone else will have a really hard time getting a job. By the way, the rich avoid this taxation because there's no inheritance or gift tax, and capital gains tax is flat. Sweden has low income inequality but very high wealth inequality - basically the only way to get rich is to be born rich or marry into a rich family. This also means that middle class subsidizes everyone else.
Healthcare is bad if you're from anywhere where it was decent. Queues are long, emergency rooms are 6 hours wait unless you're literally about to die. Yes the costs are capped (not free), but you'll have to really convince your doctor to do anything other than "take paracetamol and rest" by claiming your symptoms are worse than they are (it seems that doctors know this so if you tell the truth they assume it's actually even less bad). I've had friends vomiting blood who had to get a ride from someone because the ambulance wouldn't come. No free eyesight checks, dental is free until 24 years old then extremely expensive for anything whatsoever and the government subsidy is small.
Social life is extremely bad, you will have a very difficult time of befriending locals. It's also racist, I've heard from several people that changing their surname to the Swedish one after getting married radically changed the number of responses to their job resume.
Night life is horrible outside of some illegal student parties or raves. Alcohol is crazy expensive, clubs are all pretty bad and elitist.
Getting an apartment is difficult because of rent controls. You need to be in the queue for decades to get anything "good", otherwise you're renting "second hand" which means usually no more than a year contract after which you most likely have to move out and search for a new one again. This is specific to Stockholm but I'm guessing that's the most popular destination anyway.
Most of the year there's little sunlight, especially outside of office hours.
The country is English speaking, but not really. You must know Swedish if you want any chance at having a social life apart from other expats.
Basically I would only recommend Sweden if you're starting a family (childcare is well subsidized), or want to retire in the 8 months of darkness for whatever reason, or if you're already fluent in Swedish. Maybe if you already have kids, though it may be difficult for them to adapt. Or maybe your other options are worse (this was the case for me). Feel free to ask anything else about expat experience in Sweden.
I don't usually assume that posters are from America, but I actually did assume that this one was, because of the recent election. America is the only other place I've ever lived so it's my only point of comparison. This might not be relevant to OP since they're from Germany.
I can't compare it to anyplace decent, but I've been extremely happy with it. My husband had multiple surgeries for kidney stones, which friends in the states have just been given opiates for. During prep for one of those surgeries they found a tumor on his pancreas and diagnosed a genetic condition that probably would have killed him in a few years if they hadn't found it. He's had 5 or 6 surgeries since we got here a year ago and the care has been fantastic. The ER wait times are rough, I'll grant that, but they were just as bad in the US. The cap is negligible, it's like, $140 a year. If you can afford to move here you can afford the healthcare. Eyesight and dental aren't free, but they're way cheaper than the US.
I think that's very dependent on where in Sweden you are. I live in Skövde which is a hub of the games industry, manufacturing (Volvo mostly) and education (Högskolan i Skövde). All three attract a fairly young, international crowd. It's been very easy to make friends. I'm white, so it's very possible that there's racism that I'm not seeing, but there's a big international community here and many of my husband's colleagues are non-white and have non-Swedish last names. That doesn't disprove anything, but there's only so much evidence that I'm able to gather as a white person.
This is true. Also the food mostly sucks, with some glowing exceptions.
I would recommend against Stockholm for that reason and others. It was very easy for us to get our apartment in Skövde. The main reason we took such an expensive one is that they would let us sign a lease before our visa came through so we could move as soon as we got it. There were tons of other, cheaper places that we could have taken if we weren't in such a hurry.
It's still a huge chunk of the year this far south, but it's not most. Maybe 4 months? I don't actually mind the dark at all, but that's a valid worry for someone who does.
This has not been my experience at all. When people see me walking past at a party they switch to English in case I want to eavesdrop. Some younger people "brag" about being better at Englush than Swedish. I've had some trouble with businsses and the government due to not having learned much Swedish, but it has not been a problem at all socially.
So yeah, there are definitely also a lot of downsides, I won't lie about that. It's not a perfect place, and I only have Florida to compare it to, so it probably seems much better to me than it would to a lot of other people. I also miss the beaches and the latin cuisine that you just can't get here. But I'll never go back unless I'm forced.
If the AMOC crashes, climate in NW Europe will go to shit in a handbasket. Think Alaska.
Currently the tech industry globally is in a big slump. Basically no jobs available.
I might be in the minority here, but I based my move on geography and climate more so than political (Within first world countries) climate. And even in semi - terrible places I'm likely to be able to find at least half dozen decent folks to hang with. Caveat: I don't belong to groups currently in direct hurricane path of hate; I'll have a bit of runway ahead of less privileged groups. (Ask me again once China goes to war with the free world.)
Politics can change fairly quickly, for better and for worse. You can't change being on subduction zone even if 100% of the population are enlightened and wonderful.
Yes, but the infrastructure is fairly ready for it. Think bigger hurricanes hitting Florida, not North Carolina.
It's in a slump right now, but again, the infrastructure is there, and I think it's likely to rebound. There are also still some jobs available. I happen to know that there are a few games studios desperately looking for a decent VFX artist.
Not exactly globally. The cheaper the country the less bad it is. It only came to Czechia this last year afaik and it's not like there's no jobs available still. But you'll get paid considerably less than in Sweden.
I’ve been thinking about Sweden and heard good things about it and they seem to be really sweet if reserved people.
My worries are that Sweden is close neighbors with a right moving Europe and Russia is also right over there.
I am pretty concerned about Russia, too. I think, though, that despite our geographic proximity, Russia is more likely to bother a lot of other countries first before they get to Finland, and their resources are already stretched thin. America leaving Ukraine out to dry will do a lot for them, but unless the US actually allies with them, I don't think they'll be prepared to take on the wealthier Nordic countries. Sweden is also part of NATO now, and the US isn't the only NATO country with nukes.
I think it's a worry for 20 years down the road, not 5, and so many other things could change between now and then that it isn't worth worrying about.
OMG new fear unlocked
I don't see that as particularly likely, but nothing is impossible now.
Immigration is hard, it is not like the movies. Any reasonable country wll have quite strict immigration requirements, despite what the populist politicans in said country claim.
You didn't mention where you come from, but that plays a big role in how hard it is to immigrate. If you are living in a developing country, you will have a lot harder time to meet any immigration requirements than if you live in a developed country.
There usually are the below pathways available:
To actually succeed and thrive in the country you want to immigrate to, you will need to learn the local language fluently. This will also be more-or-less a requirement for finding a job, unless you work in the IT sector.
Also note, that only very few countries offer remote working visas (i.e. you work for a company in your home country, but move somewhere else). To qualify for a work visa, you need a job where the employer is in the country you move to.
I appreciate you took the time you reply with this, and your information is indeed correct there.
But I think you're being a bit doom and gloom about immigration.
If you want to move somewhere and you have a plan, then you can execute it with enough time.
Obviously I understand not everyone is in the position to immigrate. Especially with cost of living going up. But OP for example obviously has some freedom and wants to know their options, then you can work out what each country desires for the visa.
Tl;Dr; where there is a will, there is a way.
I see what you mean about it sounding a bit negative, but as an immigrant myself I can attest to the veracity of everything in the comment you replied to. If someone is truly motivated to immigrate then that advice will read as base level instructions.
I will second this. I have gone through the immigration/naturalization process, and in the early days I thought that the rules were especially strict. I now know that they are pretty typical, which is a realization I have seen numerous people come to while trying to immigrate to various countries. Not too long ago I encountered a woman who had suddenly decided to move her family here from the UK after having only visited briefly 10 or so years ago. She was furious that she was unable to open a bank account and a line of credit as a foreigner, and not knowing the language, she seemed to think the problem was just that people couldn’t understand her. Anyway, it’s good to do your homework first!
That being said, having spent a number of years as a semi-illegal alien, if you like the vagabond lifestyle and don’t want or require much stability, then you can really get around.
Thank your for your thoughtful reply but it’s missing the topic a little. I never expected it to be easy but these are questions for later.
Right now I want to know what Countries are viable AT ALL.
I’m from Germany but my intention was for this thread to include everyone who’s suddenly developed an urge to leave to give us all something to look further into.
As an EU citizen, you probably won't find an idyllic EU/EEA country that fits all of your standards. To be fair, you won't find the perfect country anywhere, but you can, in principle, freely migrate to any of those countries.
I'd actually not start by eliminating countries based on the criteria you mentioned previously, but rather, based on your ability to (1) move there and (2) actually be able survive there (language barrier, work, etc) first.
Then I'd proceed with the questions you asked above, keeping in mind that the perfect candidate country does not really exist. Almost any country I can think of in the EU will fail at least 1 or 2 of your criteria.
I want to add disability to this list. It's incredibly difficult because disabled people are seen as a burden. As I see people talk about moving abroad, with a partner who's paraplegic and a wheelchair user, who I'm not married to because of the financial implications on disabled folks, and his lower income from his disability? Idk that even if we got married if he'd count.
Plus most people don't have highly sought after tech degrees. Idk if Master degrees in counseling are worth much abroad, given I'm not licensed anyway, but I'm not exactly rolling around in $ myself. And I have several diagnoses that do count as disability even if I'm not "disabled". It'll only happen in a refugee situation. And I cannot even imagine being successful then either. We don't make it out together if things turn that bad.
I will say that at no point during our visa application process did anyone ask if I'm disabled, and we moved through my husband's job. We did meet with someone at one point in the process, but it was after we'd already received preliminary acceptance. My city, specifically, is also a lot more accessible than my city in Florida was.
I know that doesn't mean much, it's one country, one city, and you're not really looking to move anyway, but I think it might just be nice to know anyway.
Most places don't explicitly ask if you're disabled, but they will absolutely discriminate against anyone they think can't prove they won't need to be on state support. This can absolutely come into play when you're immigrating as a disabled person, since disabled people are much more likely than others to need to be on state support in their home country, which the country they're immigrating to will definitely care about.
It can also harm your ability to get permanent residency or citizenship once you're already there. I know someone who has permanent residency here in Germany and is on state support for her disability, and she can't get citizenship because of that. Even though they have to keep paying her state support indefinitely because she's a permanent resident, so the only thing denying her citizenship does is deny her the right to vote. But policies like this that prevent naturalization or permanent residency of people who would otherwise be eligible because they've accessed social services for the disabled are not uncommon.
Also, some countries do have a medical check that straight-up excludes people with certain disabilities as part of the immigration process. Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have all denied citizenship or permanent residency to people due to their autism. Canada's immigration reforms in 2018 reportedly made it easier for disabled people to immigrate so that the deportations and denial of permanent residency that happened there isn't supposed to happen again, but I don't know enough about what they changed to know how effective that was. Given Canada's other policies about disabled people, I'm not optimistic.
That's all very true, I can only sprak to my direct experiences as a non-disabled person married ro a non-disabled person.
If we were married that might work, I know many countries have "concerns" about disabled people immigrating there and becoming a "burden." But we can't get married or lose a lot of the supports he has in place. Which is all just another wrinkle. Life is hard either way.
Chilling, your last line reminds me of the very lovely couple living off-grid in Children Of Men. Being able to leave is indeed a luxury and it also takes courage to stay put for yourselves and others in your community who can't also leave easily
I have a friend who's very set up to be mostly off grid if necessary. Though she laughs at her husband's prepping choices (so much oatmeal, no tampons, no salt, no milk, no vegetables, lots of orange drink)
But yeah idk, I'm hopeful it's never an issue, and probably it won't be. But anxiety makes me run through worst case scenarios a lot.
Lol @ no salt. I'm surprised there at least oatmeal....and not just like, barrels of pork and jerky ... Definitely need salt :)
:) whatever the evils of out-of-control capitalism, it has brought us many good things like delivery to remote locations, pick up at malls, ability to buy freeze dryers and home handicap everything. Hey at least your house is all done up for when you guys are old too!
It will be modified by, uh, January I think. I hope now.
Apparently while there's things like Oatmeal there's..... SO much oatmeal. So much. They hunt and fish and have some fowl on their land so the animal protein was less urgent. But also just found out, 1 5lb bag of regular sugar. So... It's a real work in progress.
????? Some very baffling choices here. The traditional home kitchen essentials from my culture are fuel, rice, oil, salt, sauces, vinegar, tea. Everything else is negotiable except for the above. oatmeal wouldn't rank top 20. But not gonna lie, quite jealous about the ability involved to being able to hunt protein, very cool. Maybe they have a bartering deal going on or they keep bees maybe?! Beet sugar?
It's mostly a case where her husband is doing the "prepping" and is not really thinking this through holistically. She's down with the concept but has some notes.
Do countries even want people with a Bachelors in Computer Science these days? Tech is a mess right now!
I have no idea, but folks talk about tech jobs a lot here.
OP is German, so for any country in the Schengen area your list of limiting factors are not really accurate. It is very easy to relocate for work within the Schengen area.
I appreciate you emphasizing how difficult it is to immigrate, since as someone who has done so once myself I think a lot of people (especially Americans) underestimate both the financial and other costs of doing so. But I do think you're exaggerating the difficulty a bit too much even so. The points you make about inability to work on a spousal visa and medical degrees/certifications being invalid are defitely harsher than than for any of the countries I've lived in or researched immigrating to. Many countries have ways to get certifications and degrees recognized as local equivalents, especially for in-demand professions.
The biggest factor in one's ability to immigrate is, unsurprisingly, money. Unfortunately, the most vulnerable are the ones least able to actually manage to immigrate somewhere potentially better. But there are plenty of people here on Tildes who have the resources and qualifications to make immigrating much more tenable.
If you have a grandparent that was an Irish citizen, you can apply for Irish citizenship yourself, which when granted also makes you an EU citizen.
They usually require that you've lived in Ireland for several years for this (at least these days) to show you have a connection to Ireland. But if citizenship by ancestry somewhere is attainable for you, it's probably worth it, as a dual citizenship makes everything WAY easier. Quite a few countries have these so it's definitely worth researching.
First of all, do not panic. Even if Trump won, it doesn't mean that the country is doomed and will fall apart in a couple of months. After all, it took 20 years for Putin to became a tyrant, and he was starting with circumstances in favor of him. The decision to relocate will impact your life much more than decision to stay, so you need to think about it carefully and rational. And if you finally decided, you have to take full responsibility for it.
If you still want to do it after all emotions are settled down, try to travel to a neighbouring country and live there for a month or two. In that way you could learn what unique challenges you will face as an immigrant. If you will find that all the issues are manageable and you actually feel better outside of USA then try to list everything that is most important to you in the future place of living. With that list it will be much more easier to reduce the scope for searching. Also it will help if you could travel to the final candidate countries and see for yourself if it will suit you.
Edit: I just realised that I assumed you are from USA, despite you didn't mention it in the post. I'm sorry if I'm wrong. Anyway I still think that this advise will help anyone from anywhere with first steps of moving.
Apart from fascism, what makes you uncomfortable in you current country? This is the first question you need to ask yourself. Every country has its own unique national identity, and its own unique culture. Culture is not just the food you eat, the language you speak and the clothes you wear; culture is how you interact with other people. You need to start with a shortlist of countries whose cultures are more aligned to your personal values than where you currently are.
Once you've got your shortlist, you can start removing countries that are likely to fall to fascism. The bad news on this front is that the whole of the developed world seems to be experiencing similar political crises; fascism only arises when more moderate politicians do not resolve those crises. The UK, where I currently live, has recently voted in a centre-left government formed from the Labour Party after fourteen years of misrule by the centre-right Conservative Party, but some of the Conservative's loss is attributable to the rise of the Reform Party on the right, and they have some fascist tendencies.
I think it may be more useful to ask, What would fascism look like in each of these countries? I live in the UK, where the response to fascism would be polite and cheerful non-compliance, but I'm originally from Australia, where people love tattling on their neighbours to the authorities.
This information is usually available on government websites. Keep in mind that this is a bureaucratic process, and governments are often incentivised to make this process unpleasant. For example, I've been waiting since June for the British Home Office to make a decision about my immigration status, and even my MP hasn't been able to get any answers out of them. You will typically need to have qualifications or experience in a particular line of work that your intended destination country has trouble recruiting for; there are usually published lists of such occupations on government websites.
Information about the cost of living and healthcare systems can be found online. Note that reporting about public health systems is often a litany of scandals, but this presents an incomplete picture. The UK's National Health Service is genuinely in a bad position, but private health insurance (which pays for private hospitals and so on) is available, is of good quality, and comparatively cheap, because it has to compete with the NHS, which is free to use.
As for social security systems, you will almost certainly not have access to these as a recent migrant.
A lot of this depends on where you're coming from and where you're moving to. An American moving to Australia will receive a much warmer welcome than a Chinese or Indian person, for complex historical and economic reasons.
If you're trying to escape fascism, this is the least important thing to consider. Climate change will be experienced mostly by less developed countries; wealthy countries can buy solutions to immediate problems like famines or water shortages. It's a serious problem for everyone, but answering the previous questions will answer this one.
Other questions to consider:
I'm in the UK, Scotland to be specific.
As another commenter mentioned, we currently have a centre-left Labour Party in power at the moment in Westminster after 14 years of Conservative party rule so the Labour Party will be in power until 2029 at least. Although I hope they'll at the very least scrape a second term as a minority government through to 2034.
As the other commenter mentioned however, the Labour Party won, less as a huge shift to the left, and more as a rejection of the Conservative Party. A lot of their voters moved to embrace Reform, a right-wing to far-right political party, headed by Nigel Farage, a particularly vile toad of a man, and heavily funded by our millionaire and billionaire class. However, our political system has less room for dictators to emerge as the King or Queen are the head of state and MPs in parliament regularly revolt and stab each other in the back after a few controversies.
Up in Scotland, things are perhaps slightly better, we generally have a cultural distaste for right wing politics, with many Scots being brought up to despise the Tories. Even if the Scottish National Party, a big tent but generally centre-left political party, lose power in the next Scottish Parliament elections, it'll more than likely be Scottish Labour who take over. Our government in Holyrood, also uses the Additional Member System for voting so majorities are very rare, forcing political parties to work with one another to pass legislation.
There are a lot of reserved matters that are still managed in Scotland by Westminster such as defence for instance. However, there is also a lot of very important stuff such as the health service, education, local council funding and certain national priorities that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament (Holyrood).
However, we can only do so much and like the rest of the UK, Scotland's NHS is struggling, it's infrastructure is quite literally crumbling in places, and the wealth gap continues to widen.
However, healthcare is free at the point of use, prescriptions are free, dentistry is free for a lot of the young and elderly, university fees are free or heavily subsidised and if you do need or want private health care it's not horrendously expensive. I just got a dental check up, scale abd polish the other day for £70.
If there's one thing I can say it's that Scots are very friendly. There's arseholes like you'd find anywhere of course, football is a huge sport here, loved by millions but it can be a pathway to bigotry and Sectarianism between Protestants and Catholics throughout the country. Alcoholism and drug abuse is our country's shame, but we are trying to reduce drug and alcohol deaths. You've got to be able to take a bit of piss-taking but it's rarely ever meant to offend, we're warm, friendly and there's plenty who'd give you the clothes off their back if they call you their friend.
In terms of careers, I can't really speak much on it, I work for the civil service for the national auditor. I could be paid more in the private sector but I like helping my country, the holidays (42 days a year) and pension (career average defined benefits) are amazing and I work with some lovely people. However, a lot of finance companies are headquartered or have huge offices in Scotland (particularly Edinburgh and Glasgow) with Edinburgh itself being a huge UK financial hub.
The weather is cold, mild, rainy, and wet. You get four different types of weather in a day, and can never be sure if you should bring a jacket out or not in case the sun suddenly comes out or it starts chucking it down with rain.
Its Westminster that deals with immigration since it's a reserved matter. So you'd have to look at the relevant UK government webpage to find out how to immigrate to the UK if that's what you want but Scotland is a wonderful place to live at times, full of history and culture.
As an immigrant to Scotland I find that the weather is not as bad as the Scottish like to make out. What was a bigger impact was the lack of daylight in the winter months.
The summer this year was pretty grim to be fair, think I was getting used to those heatwaves we've had the past few years.
The deep winter when you get 4 or 5 hours of light can be rough, you get to understand why the Scots Gaelic for December is "An Dùbhlachd" which translates to "The Blackness".
I didn't immigrate quite as far north as Scotland (I'm in Germany), but the increased darkness levels in winter really hit me unexpectedly as well. European weather is milder at higher latitudes than in North America, so I don't think most people realize how far north it is. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio originally, which is roughly the same latitude as Florence, Italy. So even if the weather in Europe is much milder or even warmer than back home, it can still be enough farther north that it has a big effect on daylight hours in the winters.
I was about to go "oi, prescriptions aren't fre..." oh. Scotland. :(
Would you mind ever so much annexing Northumberland again, please? Thanks !. Berwick's lovely this time of year.
I've only visited a few times but I will chime in that it's a beautiful country. Edinburgh I'm particular is like the fortress of comedy and improv.
I couldn't understand most of the people when I passed through Glasgow, though, so maybe keep regional accents in mind when choosing a location. :)
Visited a few times. Seconded!
Lovely people, Scots! I'd consider moving there too!
This is somewhat related, but Scotland was one of my favorite places I've ever been. I have never been to random pub in any other place in tbe world, met some nice locals, get called a cunt and we are all laughing about it.
Scotland was actually where my wife and I are considering moving. I work in IT - do you know of any resources that i can read up on for possibly migrating?
Irn-bru and Buckfast are also incredible.
I'm not certain as our immigration process is not something I'm certain of but I imagine you'd need to look at our Skilled Worker Visas.
I also found this site which details the different routes to move to and work in the UK.
I imagine it would be best to speak to an immigration lawyer who can let you know the best route for you and your wife.
But yes, cunt is very context dependent in Scotland. It can be a term of endearment or deep hatred. Being called a "sound cunt" is one of the nicest things a friend can call you here haha.
What about midges? Are they just in the Highlands or are they everywhere?
Everywhere sadly :(. Probably more of them up north but spending any deal of time outside at night in the summer requires citronella candles or insect repellent spray to ward them off.
I'm really drawn to Scotland, but the weather and bugs are a bit of a turn-off, especially for my wife. Last year we spent the summer on the east coast of Canada, and I was really surprised how many biting insects there were. It really put a downer on evenings when you wanted to sit outside to enjoy the sunset. I really love the Scottish landscape though, and the history.
I totally get that, the midges can be a pain.
Waking up the morning after enjoying one of our warm summer nights outside during the summer to find yourself covered in little itchy welts is very frustrating but certainly it's just one of those things you get used to living here.
If you are willing to teach and probably invest some time into further education, teaching at international schools is an option:
2.1. Edit (I left out a step): Teach the same subject for 2+ years somewhere with lower requirements (SE Asia, parts of central/south America)
2.2 Go to China and teach a subject (not English/EFL/ESL!)
...how exactly do most people get jobs teaching in China for anything that isn't ESL without being fluent in Chinese? They were even getting stricter about letting people in as English teachers when I looked into it ~10 years ago, and I'm not under the impression that institutions where someone with just an undergraduate degree would be qualified to teach are teaching in English for subjects other than English language.
The idea of that type of education is that the teacher doesn’t know Chinese/Japanese/Korean, so the students will need to learn English in order to have a conversation with the teacher.
That’s for teaching English, and it kinda sorta makes sense even though usually the foreign teacher is more of a glorified clown.
I’ve never seen a math class where the students need to actively learn english to then learn math lol.
The programs in English are to help the students prepare for AP, CAIE, IB, or SAT exams so that they can then apply to international universities. They might know the math already from local curriculum, but the English based subject lessons teach them how to actually understand the English on the exams in order to understand and solve the problems.
For any subject other than English? I don't think I've ever heard of such a program.
There are a lot, usually within a government or private school, usually with the term "international program" or "international division". All classes are in English, and the curriculum is usually Cambridge, ~AP, or IB.
That was step 4 of your plan though, since teaching at these schools requires certifications (which was step 3). Is it really so common for international schools to allow you to teach with an undergraduate degree and zero teaching experience? This isn't even something I think is common for ESL teaching anymore at normal Chinese schools, as those with no teaching experience are typically assigned a teacher's aide level role beneath a local teacher.
Edit: Ah, yes I left out a step.
Prior to covid the only requirements for China were a bachelor's in a semi related field, and ~2 years (maybe 3?) of consecutive teaching experience in the given subject area. Recruiting agencies will even massage your resume to get the visa, because they get paid again when you complete your contract. As far as I know, nobody was hired with zero teaching experience, but even teaching primary math in a random Thai government school for 2 years would meet the Chinese requirement.
The beginning of the journey is ideally experience in an international program, which generally has lower requirements. You then use that experience + an online MEd or iPGCE to work your way into a very low tier "legit" international school. Once you have done that you can then start applying to "real" international schools.
It's basically a work around to the alternative of working for poverty level wages as a new teacher in a US high school for a few years, then going international.
Edit 2: Also, thanks to politics and COVID China basically forced a lot of foreign teachers out (evil foreigners spreading COVID, sound familiar?), which left them fairly short when COVID ended. Not sure if that is still the case, but the demand definitely changes from year to year.
Surely then your list of steps should include something between "get undergrad degree" and "move to China" to get that perfunctory teaching experience at least?
Yeah, I added it, sorry.
There are plenty of international divisions in schools where the entire curriculum is in English. Easiest way is through recruiters like Pacific Bridge, then through connections.
Depending on qualifications you might need 2 years of teaching elsewhere to meet the Chinese work permit requirements.
There are countries that has digital nomad visas, those might be a good options for people who want to try living abroad. Or might need short term medical care or need to flee for their safety. Although many countries, locals are a little hostile to them due to gentrification/unaffordable housing and such. Also this is a short term solution, not a permanent one.
PS. I'm not willing to have a political debate, just offering some advice who one reason or another might need to leave their countries. Note that I'm first generation immigrant.
Completely agree. I think people are "dreaming" versus "actually doing". Either way, do your homework, especially if you are in the class of people who can afford to move. I read an article recently of late generation couple who moved to France thinking it was going to be great only to regret and move back to California. Lucky them they got the money to do it. For those who don't have the money to move like that, well, it's a do or die situation. Plenty of places you can go, survive and overcome at all cost to live.
I think this is a particularly interesting question if you're in a "world is your oyster" position.
I think to some extent its very difficult to gauge a country or city simply by stats or anecdotes.
It's very complicated because there are so many factors to include like language, geography, culture, history, current affairs... The list goes on and on.
I moved to rural Norway last year but the choice was really based on moving to live with my partner. If it'd not been for that, I'd be in OP's position.
Personally I really like it here compared to the UK where the government, cost of living, public transport and healthcare has gone to shit. I've found little I don't like (except learning a new language).
But had I had the choice in anywhere in the world... I dunno? It's easy to get lost in the numbers and I've visited a lot of places I'm not sure I'd like to live in. I think I would personally just choose somewhere that sounds good, give it a visit and if it seems good then go try to live there for as long as I could on a visitor/temp visa to scout it out.
In Europe you can stay 90 days out of 180 in any other country, so you can spend basically 3 months out somewhere and test the waters.
You get a feel for a place pretty fast when you live there for more than a couple weeks.
Anyway, I hope you find refuge, I did hear Germany making some pretty questionable political choices recently, so I understand your concern.
Hey, I'm also considering moving to Norway in future years (also due to my spouse more than anything), do you have any particular advice for Norway from your experience? I've immigrated to Germany from the US, so I've had a lot of the main common immigrant experiences, but I was wondering if you had any particular insights to Norway in particular to give.
Sure!
It's not particularly easy to get into Norway. I'm sure you know the usual criteria and others have posted it here in detail.
If you're coming through a skilled worker visa or something similar, you've got to prove you've got a job lined up with a Norwegian company, somewhere to stay and at least 6 months worth of money in the bank to live on. They simply won't accept you coming in with a job from overseas or remote, but I think that's reasonably standard.
I was extremely lucky in that my company is global and I asked to get sponsored through to the Norwegian branch, so they handled the visa and paid for it.
But I understand it can be pretty slow and they are picky.
There is a lot of good (albeit the UX isn't wonderful) info on the Norwegian visa website UDI.
I think that's about as much as I can say about the actual visa process. Moving was pretty easy. As was getting my temp ID and shipping my stuff over. Getting Norwegian BankID (which is their kinda social security number) was a nightmare and took like 3 months of back and forward to the bank so I had the convenience of logging in to the tax system to not getting taxed at like 45 percent. But once I got it everything was way easier.
Culture and language are very strong here. I guess less so in Oslo if that's where you're thinking but IMO Oslo is the worst city in Norway. Bergen, Trondheim, etc are nicer places. Though if you learned any German you'll be in luck because Norwegian is very Germanic and shares a lot of roots.
I'd also say you need to be ok with the cold and the dark, its not for a lot of people. The summers here are awesome, but the winters are long. The darkness is like nothing Ive seen before, it is truly pitch black here at night and its dark at like 5pm. Winter will go down to -35 degrees C. Shops sell vitamin D like candy.
It's better when it snows.
All that said, I really like the culture, the people, I like the cold and the summer. I don't know a huge amount about the politics here yet but they seem good (better than the UK and US) from what I've understood. Plus there's a lot of social security which I'm enjoying.
If you've got any questions go for it and I'll try and answer.
Awesome, thanks for the reply! My wife is Norwegian and I'm married to her, so that makes things a lot smoother. That does also mean we're more likely to end up in Oslo than anywhere else, though, since her family's all in the southeast.
How has learning the language gone for you? I know a teeny bit of the basics right now and it seems like it'll be easier to learn than German based on that, but how did the process go in your case? Especially when it comes to learning the language alongside your life as an adult with a job?
Also, how have you found the social situation? The impression I've got from r/Norway is that every Norwegian makes all their friends in high school and then never speaks to another person until they die. But r/Norway is also not an encouraging place, given that half the comments on any immigration-related thread are people telling OP to leave and go back to their home country. Here in Germany I've been able to make some friends through shared interests and school, but my friend group definitely still skews international. How have you found making friends in Norway and becoming part of things (like joining groups or clubs and such)?
Ah then you are sorted for the visa then, no problem!
The language has been a nightmare for me honestly. My partner and I speak English at home, even though she's Norwegian. And I don't get enough exposure really to actually learn properly.
I agree that it seems like a pretty simple language compared to many others.
One thing I'd probably mention is the lack of resources. All Norwegian TV has no English subtitles, which makes it a pain in the ass to learn from. There's a new Netflix shows but we've been through them all.
Otherwise its online or in person classes, which I think I'm gonna need to make a point of going to personally next year.
Socially is a difficult too. I think the language is a prerequisite to be honest! I've made friends with the neighbours here (remember I'm rural) and my partner's family are all really nice, we see them a lot for dinner and cake. If I knew the language better I would get into Norwegian social groups. They are really big on their community hobby groups for stuff and around me there's a group for shooting, country dancing, magic the gathering and a local band meet at least that i know about. That's how I'd do it.
The trick about /r/Norway is no-one who's actually Norwegian is on /r/Norway except to mock us expats. You want /r/Norge which is in Norwegian and actually talks about Norway and life there. Likewise Norway has a Norwegian version of just about everything you normally use. There is no Amazon. There is no Craigslist/Gumtree. They have their own stuff and its all in Norwegian for Norwegians.
Also everyone in Norway still uses Facebook for some reason. Which made me have to go and reactivate my account.
Your language and social situation sounds very familiar to mine here in Germany lol, so I can relate. I'm hoping I can force my in-laws to be a useful resource in that regard, but we'll see. My wife is very enthusiastic about me learning Norwegian but we'll see whether that translates into her being good at using it with me.
I'm not sure where I stand on resources tbqh. If I watch German content with English subtitles, I focus almost exclusively on the subtitles and learn very little German. And I definitely have come to rely on machine translation a bit too much (DeepL is a blessing...). So it can go either way I think.
Overall it sounds like most of the problems are very familiar immigrant problems that I'm at least already used to. Which is at least reassuring to know there's nothing super secret and new around the corner.
And yeah, that tracks for my experience with r/Norway so far. To be fair, it's not so different with r/Germany vs r/de, but I think r/Germany is either moderated a lot more heavily or the xenophobic comments get downvoted quicker. More comments from bitter current immigrants there! Would not recommend except for their wiki.
I do already have the finn.no app downloaded. Speculative apartment hunting there is always fun. Rent here in Berlin is so much worse than when I moved here that it doesn't even look that bad in Oslo anymore!
Man it's nice to hear someone else in a similar situation!
Best wishes in your plans! I hope it comes together. PM me if you want to talk more about it to avoid cluttering up the comments.
Yeah, I think that Norway has some deep Germanic roots in language and nature, so I'd be surprised if you didn't see some similarities!
I'll definitely try to PM you as things become more concrete if I have questions!
I'm probably in a different situation than a lot of people here. I'm 55 in the US, hoping to retire at 60. I have a good nest egg, though bridging health insurance from 60 to when Medicare kicks in at 65 is a big and costly challenge. I'm not in a good position with my age and my career winding down to immigrate anywhere. How possible is it to live in Canada as a US citizen on "permanent vacation", so to speak, possibly owning property?
This scenario is very popular and our Canadian snow birds do the opposite thing. If I were considering doing something like that I would speak with an immigration lawyer: for $~200 consultation, they'll walk you through this extremely common scenario with all the watch outs and do's and don'ts and best cheapest way to go. You'll come away with more questions answered and more resources than you can shake a stick at, and it'll be all legit and up to the minute , instead of internet people hearsay from previous administrations. Some firms even have free info sessions online. Lawyer lawyer lawyer; they're one of my favorite professions and subject matter experts.
Once upon a time, I gathered a long list of questions from a group of internet friends, and paid for an hour going through them, with the immigration lawyer agreeing to be recorded and shared with the group. 10/10 recommend
Well, I don't think Portugal is on the verge of descending into fascism. Right wing populism is on the rise but I attribute that to a combination of factors:
There is a serious housing crisis in the large cities due to a general lack of construction and precisely, in part, the fact that well-off foreigners (also) love to move here (as opposed to cheap labor). If you don't need employment from a local business and are fine with living in a small backwater town, you'll find it easy to live here.
Essentially, literally everyone here would be covered by what certain right wing populists would refer to as "sending their best". There is only xenophobia against much poorer countries, unless you are in a position where you might be perceived as being part of the housing problem.
Denmark is nice, but the expectation here is you'll assimilate to the culture. Been here three years but still feel like an outsider. And ofc, Denmark has racism and the like, but overall, its quite civilized and democratic. Consistently #1 on the rule of law index.
I haven't seen Australia mentioned yet so I'll throw it out as an option. Up until recently Australia had a long standing right leaning government that kept pushing dated policies (Supporting fossil fuels and the like). While the current government leaves a lot to be desired, it's a step in the right direction.
The job market is not too bad if you're in IT, just be aware that you'll likely get a pay cut coming here, though the quality of life tends to be pretty good in exchange.
I'm in the same boat, not sure where to possibly escape to if needed. My current option by birthright would be a place under the threat of invasion. 🫠 If I took a stab in the dark, then I'd start looking at either Finland or Sweden. They constantly come out on top of those annual "happiest country in the world" lists.
Sweden, The United Kingdom, The Netherlands, Thailand.
As Thai people I'd say most people don't have much hope in our country not going in the Fascism route. It was only a few years that we got out of almost 10 years of military junta in full or in half. There is also risk that we would play by Chinese Government's rules, but I think the actual strategy is just the classical Siamese Talk - play to the powers that are useful to us.
It might be a fine country to live in if you're 1) white 2) rich (by Thai standard) 3) not into politics. The past few coups it's almost business-as-usual during daylight hours, just with more limited freedom of speech. We do have digital nomad visa now (need to show a bank account with more than ฿500,000 and an employment contract - you get 5 years visa with max 6 months per visit)
I am sorry to hear that and I guess I was thinking about it being a great place to live from a western "perspective", which was due to my ignorance. Hopefully at some point soon the Thai people get a leader who improves life for all living in Thailand...
It's better you discuss this with your close family and not with like-minded people on internet.
I don't understand why. Isn't it better to get information about other countries from people who live there rather than from people who have only heard about it?
Just my opinion. OP is clearly motivated by hatred for their current leader. Their requirements are also extremely politically motivated. They should be discussing this matter with family, not here. In new country they will face same issues maybe not tomorrow but one day for sure. Get off internet for a while maybe.
I'm extremely biased because the political climate in my home country was probably the biggest factor in wanting to leave. In my opinion, it's an extremely valid reason to go. Aside from family that would be coming with you, the input of family isn't necessarily useful. My dad is afraid that Putin is going to personally break into my house carrying a nuclear bomb, two of my sisters just voted for Trump, and my mom wishes that there weren't so many rainbow flags at the nearby church, so while I love them, none of them really factored into my decision.
Even better if OP does both
I wish people would stop questioning my reasons. I said I am willing to go anywhere, If you must know its because I have exactly zero things tying me to where I am. I have thought long about it, I know it's not all sunshine and rainbows but life is already pretty close to a living hell for me where I am and its about to get worse.
If it makes you feel any better this is a well know phenomenon...."I'm leaving" signals ditching the home team and people reflexively really don't like that. It's easier to dismiss you as being hot headed or any number of negative things than it is to question "is the team really bad enough that I need to also move".
They're not wrong to be careful etc but you explicitly asked not to be patronized, and it's irritating. i hope you can see their own agitation instead of these comments being criticism of you.
This has crossed my mind yes. I guess I’m gonna go ask an AI instead…