56 votes

Olympic committee announces a broad ban on transgender athletes and athletes with differences in sex development in Women’s events (gifted link)

91 comments

  1. [17]
    DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    This is exhausting. Trans athletes and athletes with DSD are not dominating sports and women and women's sports do not need protecting. We stopped doing sex testing because it's not a black and...

    The International Olympic Committee banned transgender athletes from competing in the women’s category at the Olympics, after telling its members to conduct mandatory genetic testing for women’s competitions.

    Under the new policy eligibility will be determined by a one-time gene test, according to the I.O.C. The test, which is already being used in track and field, requires screening via saliva, a cheek swab or a blood sample.

    The I.O.C. ruling eliminates from women’s competition a minority of athletes who do not have the typical female XX sex chromosomes, and have one of several conditions that together are known as differences in sex development, or DSD. Such people can be female to outward appearances, and some do not know they have DSD. But their unusual genetics can result in high levels of testosterone, and possibly greater muscular development, giving them some of the athletic advantage that men have.

    Track and field has been at the forefront of the debate since the South African runner Caster Semenya exploded into the public consciousness by winning gold in the 800 meters at a world championships in 2009. Her victory prompted a backlash from rivals who complained about Ms. Semenya’s appearance, leading to the governing body at the time ordering sex tests. At issue was a rare trait giving her naturally elevated levels of testosterone.

    Ms. Semenya has for years battled against previous rules demanding she and others reduce their testosterone, losing a challenge at sport’s top court in 2019. She was among nine African athletes to sign a letter sent to the I.O.C president, Ms. Coventry, in which they detailed “cruel and degrading treatment” they faced due to eligibility regulations for women with sex variations, describing invasive examinations, forced surgeries and harmful hormone treatment that have led, they say, to physical and emotional trauma and come at significant financial cost.

    “I have carried this weight. So have other women of color who deserved better from sport,” Ms. Semenya said in a statement to The New York Times. “Reintroducing genetic screening is not progress — it is walking backward,” she said, adding, “This is just exclusion with a new name.”

    This is exhausting. Trans athletes and athletes with DSD are not dominating sports and women and women's sports do not need protecting. We stopped doing sex testing because it's not a black and white, XX or XY category. So much effort to hurt so few people.

    50 votes
    1. [11]
      cheep_cheep
      Link Parent
      I get the impression that after years and multiple attempts to look for nuance, like looking at hormone levels and performing physical examinations and other invasive procedures that these...
      • Exemplary

      I get the impression that after years and multiple attempts to look for nuance, like looking at hormone levels and performing physical examinations and other invasive procedures that these athletes unnecessarily had to bear, the IOC threw up its hands and decided that a genetic test is simple, clear, fast, and concrete, thus negating the need to continually argue over whether athletes are eligible over the course of their careers. This of course obfuscates all of the nuances that make people who they are, and it's a pretty shocking rejection of the diversity of people by an organization that alleges it tries to be inclusive and supportive of diversity.

      I really hope that groups fight back against this - I discovered yesterday that a literal convicted child rapist competed for the Netherlands in beach volleyball in 2024, and although there was a fair amount of public backlash against this, the IOC said "we have no power to decide whom national Olympic committees can to bring to the Olympics". How is it possible that they have no power there, and wash their hands of the whole business, but they are taking a horrifically backwards stance here? Why can't national committees bring who they want, if it fits in line with their sport's governing board? It reads more like they want to avoid messy controversy by throwing out the athletes who might cause backlash...but only if it's based on the perception (!) of one's gender. How did we get here?

      Add on to this the very dubious records of many track and field athletes who were almost certainly doping in the 80s, many of whose records still stand today, and the hypocrisy is even more outrageous. I do not believe for a second that Caster Semenya's victories at the Olympics - which I personally found triumphant and moving - to be unfair any more than Michael Phelps's were with his unusual physiology. Bodies are weird. Some people just naturally are built to be weirdly good at certain physical activities. Why is Semenya's body unacceptable but Phelps's isn't?

      I do think women's sports need to be protected, but not on the genetic front - female athletes get less financial support and often deal with all kinds of disrespect and abuse, and it's usually pretty obvious at the international level which countries provide funding for their female athletes to succeed and which don't, in ways that often aren't true for men. (Hockey and soccer are probably two of the most obvious - there's a fair amount of parity on the men's side, but women's hockey and soccer are typically dominated by the nations that have national leagues and provide support, and there aren't many). Even when those resources exist for women, they are often treated with mockery - see the NBA vs. the WNBA. Part of providing support for women's sport isn't defining more assiduously what a woman is, it's treating athletes competing with respect and support.

      51 votes
      1. [10]
        EsteeBestee
        Link Parent
        This is so well said. We live in a world where it's mostly men making these regulations around transgender women in the name of "protecting women" when it's just lazy and hateful political theater...

        This is so well said. We live in a world where it's mostly men making these regulations around transgender women in the name of "protecting women" when it's just lazy and hateful political theater while they do very little to actually progress women's sports.

        It's also incredibly depressing seeing discussions on this subject on other social platforms as it's mostly men (and bots) trying to tell women how they should feel about transgender women. Obviously there are cis women out there with opinions on the subject as well, but it's just disgusting seeing how many people online only care about women's sports when a trans person is involved. They don't watch us play sports, they don't support our sports, but they care when they can enact their opinions and their "common sense" on us.

        23 votes
        1. [3]
          cheep_cheep
          Link Parent
          For every person who complained about Laurel Hubbard being included in women's weightlifting while trans, I want them to tell me whether they watch women's weightlifting, or any weightlifting at...

          For every person who complained about Laurel Hubbard being included in women's weightlifting while trans, I want them to tell me whether they watch women's weightlifting, or any weightlifting at all, actually. No? Then shut the fuck up. (Also: weightlifting is amazing, and the smallest weight class (<48 kilos!) has some especially incredible athletes, and makes me feel like a total scrub in comparison. Judo, too! Those ladies are badasses.)

          16 votes
          1. [2]
            EsteeBestee
            Link Parent
            I was addicted to the women’s weightlifting last Olympics and started weightlifting, myself! I’ve made some good gains, but my best lift is a 300lb deadlift and the Olympian level lifters in the...

            I was addicted to the women’s weightlifting last Olympics and started weightlifting, myself! I’ve made some good gains, but my best lift is a 300lb deadlift and the Olympian level lifters in the women’s 100+ kg weight class are doing over twice that. It’s fucking BONKERS and I love it!

            8 votes
            1. cheep_cheep
              Link Parent
              That's amazing! A family member of mine has recently gotten into weightlifting and she also has made amazing progress, and it's so fun to watch her get more and more jacked. I hope you continue to...

              That's amazing! A family member of mine has recently gotten into weightlifting and she also has made amazing progress, and it's so fun to watch her get more and more jacked. I hope you continue to have a wonderful time watching and participating in weightlifting!

              7 votes
        2. [3]
          post_below
          Link Parent
          Good point, men in general seem to have a lot of opinions about this topic for no good reason. I suspect, without much evidence, that the general population doesn't have strong feelings one way or...

          Good point, men in general seem to have a lot of opinions about this topic for no good reason.

          I suspect, without much evidence, that the general population doesn't have strong feelings one way or the other. Online it's a different story.

          9 votes
          1. [2]
            Minori
            Link Parent
            The general population doesn't prioritize it, but the issue is emotionally salient. It feels "unfair" to a majority of people per survey data.

            The general population doesn't prioritize it, but the issue is emotionally salient. It feels "unfair" to a majority of people per survey data.

            6 votes
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              This reminds me of the one study where men thought a crowd was dominated by women when there was greater than 25% women or something ridiculous. People's perception of fairness can so often be...

              This reminds me of the one study where men thought a crowd was dominated by women when there was greater than 25% women or something ridiculous. People's perception of fairness can so often be completely detached from fairness in practice -- I'd argue especially when it's emotionally salient.

              16 votes
        3. [3]
          Minori
          Link Parent
          These policies are supported by a majority of female athletes: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2024.2326354#d1e1485

          These policies are supported by a majority of female athletes: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2024.2326354#d1e1485

          8 votes
          1. EsteeBestee
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Firstly, thank you for providing a study. The findings are interesting, though I don't think the findings show that women will support blanket bans on transgender women in women's sport. In the...
            • Exemplary

            Firstly, thank you for providing a study. The findings are interesting, though I don't think the findings show that women will support blanket bans on transgender women in women's sport. In the study, you're right that the majority of women surveyed agree on segregating women's sports by biological sex (58.4%). However, I found other findings interesting. 94.2% of participants "agreed that individuals should be able to transition from one gender to another in society" and a non insignificant 44.4% of respondents indicated they would support segregating sports by gender rather than sex. A whopping 81.1% of respondents indicated "that governing bodies could be doing more to make sport more inclusive for transgender athletes" and 66.2% said that "transgender athletes are treated unfairly across all sports". 54.5% of respondents also answered yes to "Should your sport’s governing body make it be possible for people to switch sex categories" which is an important one.

            Additionally, the conclusion states that "Nevertheless, most participants (~47%) believed it was unfair for trans women to compete in the female category of contact sports and sports heavily reliant on physical capacity, compared to ~ 38% considering it fair (Figure 1a)". 15% of respondents indicated a 3 out of 5 on that question, which really could go either way and wasn't mentioned in the conclusion. So while 47% answered with a 1 or a 2 and 38% answered with a 4 or a 5, that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of respondents do not support trans women in women's sports. It means more respondents indicated they are specifically against it than those that indicated they are for it, but there's still a middle ground cohort.

            The conclusion I'd draw is that the field was pretty split on how to segregate sports (with a bias towards segregation based on sex), but that there isn't evidence to support the field would agree with a blanket ban of trans women and intersex women from women's sport. Based on how many respondents thought that transgender athletes are treated unfairly, I would guess that most respondents would prefer a more fair solution than a blanket ban. With the 54.5% of respondents that answered yes to "Should your sport’s governing body make it be possible for people to switch sex categories", and 58.4% answering yes to "Do you believe sport should be categorised by biological sex?", I'd also question if a number of respondents include trans women in women's sport even when voting to segregate based on sex.

            That was a super long winded analysis by me, but the tldr of what I concluded from that data is that while I agree that the study shows nearly half of participants think it's unfair for trans women to participate in contact/physical women's sports, there is nothing there to indicate specific regulations the respondents would support and that I'd bet they would want a more careful approach than a blanket ban, considering the overwhelming support of transgender people in general. Despite the majority (58.4%) indicating they are okay segregating sport on sex, that also doesn't necessarily mean they think trans women should have to go compete against men.

            The way I feel on all of this is that I want more equitable solutions for everybody to enjoy sport and I feel like blanket bans on trans women hurt more people than they help. I think governing bodies should instead be focusing on how to make sport more fair for everybody instead of telling trans women to just go play with the men.

            20 votes
          2. DefinitelyNotAFae
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I'm going to rewrite this. I believe your statement seriously over-generalizes a study on a small subsection of athletes, and characterizes their opinions as agreeing with the current decision...

            That statement absolutely misstates and over-generalizes the linked study.

            I'm going to rewrite this. I believe your statement seriously over-generalizes a study on a small subsection of athletes, and characterizes their opinions as agreeing with the current decision when that was not the policy in place at the time nor were they, from what I read, asked about it specifically. They had different opinions about different sports, different opinions among retired athletes and current ones and these did not include anywhere near the majority of women/girls in sports instead focusing only on those near-olympic to olympic level athletes.

            I don't feel your comment accurately characterizes the study.

            10 votes
    2. [5]
      UTDoctor
      Link Parent
      “It’s not happening that much” isn’t a compelling argument just FYI. Fighting for what you think is right, or against what you think is wrong isn’t a matter of the frequency of something occurring.

      “It’s not happening that much” isn’t a compelling argument just FYI.

      Fighting for what you think is right, or against what you think is wrong isn’t a matter of the frequency of something occurring.

      12 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        Much like the idea of "voter fraud" the frequency and intensity with which something is occurring should probably direct our responses toward it. Because addressing perceived voter fraud with laws...

        Much like the idea of "voter fraud" the frequency and intensity with which something is occurring should probably direct our responses toward it. Because addressing perceived voter fraud with laws that disenfranchise millions is absolutely ridiculous if you're looking at, for example 39 fraudulent votes out of over 100 million over 30 years in Pennsylvania or .0000845% in Arizona. Because it's functionally not happening. And the "cure" is worse than the "disease".

        So yes, whether women's sports are at any actual "risk" from trans women competing or whether there was an indication of trans women dominating a sport, or whether there was any sign of men pretending to be women to get a gold in something all matter right alongside the ethics. Even if it were OK to harm all the trans women, and it's not, or all the cis women who know the have DSDs, and it's still not, the impact of this will be felt by every cis woman competing too, including those who find out, semi-publicly, that their chromosomes aren't what they thought and all of the social, legal and financial consequences therein.

        This does more to harm women's sports than it does to protect it and the frequency and impact absolutely matters.

        23 votes
      2. [2]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        There's little to no evidence that it's happening at all -- there are some people with DSD competing in the Olympics, but not to an extent that demonstrably outstrips their frequency in the...

        There's little to no evidence that it's happening at all -- there are some people with DSD competing in the Olympics, but not to an extent that demonstrably outstrips their frequency in the population generally. Even setting aside the fact that other genetic abnormalities that contribute to improved athletic performance are A-OK in the Olympics (Michael Phelps being the classic but by no means the only example), there is no evidence that women's sports even at this high level are being dominated by women with DSD or elevated testosterone or anything similar due to those things, and the existence of some small number of people with DSD among Olympic athletes would be statistically expected even with absolutely no affect from DSDs on athletic performance. The people "fighting for what they think is right" here are hateful transphobes and intersexists whose opinions have very little connection to actual concrete facts and are founded instead on their desire to exclude those they hate from participating in society.

        12 votes
        1. cheep_cheep
          Link Parent
          The way intersex people are being exposed, bullied, and harassed is one of the most upsetting parts of this whole saga for me. Many people don't even know they're intersex, and then it's made...

          The way intersex people are being exposed, bullied, and harassed is one of the most upsetting parts of this whole saga for me. Many people don't even know they're intersex, and then it's made suddenly very public, with a tidal wave of hate following them around out of nowhere. All because they wanted to pursue becoming an elite athlete. Most people don't even know or acknowledge that intersex people exist, either, which just compounds the hate, bigotry, and erasure. It's absolutely awful, and the IOC is leading the way.

          16 votes
      3. kacey
        Link Parent
        FYI frequency and ROI are compelling arguments to me, but I don't care about sportsball to begin with.

        FYI frequency and ROI are compelling arguments to me, but I don't care about sportsball to begin with.

        7 votes
  2. [2]
    Bullmaestro
    Link
    I'm guessing the IOC announcement means that Imane Khelif won't be able to compete in the 2028 Olympics? She has confirmed in an interview that she has the SRY gene, which is a common mutation in...

    I'm guessing the IOC announcement means that Imane Khelif won't be able to compete in the 2028 Olympics? She has confirmed in an interview that she has the SRY gene, which is a common mutation in DSD patients.

    So this ruling potentially means you could have a condition like Swyer Syndrome, be born with functional female genitalia, a vagina, uterus and fallopian tubes (you'd need HRT in order to go through puberty and can only conceive via egg donation) but because you have XY chromosomes, you're not biologically deemed a woman in the eyes of the IOC.

    This really does feel like TERFs and transphobes moving the goalposts in spectacular fashion just to hurt a very small minority of athletes, and the IOC blatantly ignoring the science and pandering towards Donald Trump...

    And this is absolutely not a Laurel Hubbard situation, with an athlete who transitioned well into adulthood (she started transitioning in 2012 at the age of 34.) Khelif was born as a woman with the SRY gene.

    31 votes
    1. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      We don't even have good evidence that naturally higher testosterone levels actually result in improved athletic performance -- iirc the evidence is that supplementing someone's baseline improves...

      We don't even have good evidence that naturally higher testosterone levels actually result in improved athletic performance -- iirc the evidence is that supplementing someone's baseline improves their performance regardless of whether that baseline was low, average, or high for someone of their gender, but that athletic performance is not necessarily all that correlated to where that baseline is naturally. As someone with naturally elevated testosterone who was assigned female at birth, I promise I can serve as a striking counterexample to the idea that "more T" = "automatically better/faster/stronger". And that's before you even touch on the sports where even what benefits we see from adding T wouldn't be relevant...

      So yeah, it's TERF bullshit all the way down.

      30 votes
  3. [2]
    ogre
    Link
    Well that fucking sucks. What’s next, banning people who are too tall from playing basketball? Oh no that’s nonsensical because it wouldn’t target a minority conservatives hate (yet). I’m so tired...

    Well that fucking sucks. What’s next, banning people who are too tall from playing basketball? Oh no that’s nonsensical because it wouldn’t target a minority conservatives hate (yet). I’m so tired of the bullshit, man.

    28 votes
    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Or Michael Phelps and his wingspan and slight webbing on his toes or whatever. It's exhausting.

      Or Michael Phelps and his wingspan and slight webbing on his toes or whatever. It's exhausting.

      25 votes
  4. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    The Olympics Has a New Sex Testing Policy. The Evidence Doesn’t Add Up An article from a journalist that did research and a podcast on the history of sex testing. It's a very good read with...

    The Olympics Has a New Sex Testing Policy. The Evidence Doesn’t Add Up

    An article from a journalist that did research and a podcast on the history of sex testing. It's a very good read with history and someone who dug into the actual data. Did you know that there's eugenics under here? Trans women may be the current scapegoats but women with DSDs have been targeted for decades due to racism and the failed study premise of a South African researcher who was predictably racist as fuck.

    I encourage folks to read because I could only highlight and quote so much.

    We last saw this particular policy emerge in the 1960s, when every woman who competed in the Olympics was forced to go through an unreliable genetic test looking for Y chromosomal material — a test that about 1 in 500 women failed. (Surprise! Lots of women have Y chromosomal material in their cells.) The women who passed this test got a "femininity certificate" they had to carry with them to every single competition. Those who "failed" were told to fake an injury and leave.

    The earliest proponents of sex testing in the 1930s were convinced that many of the women who were competing in sports were secretly men. Sometimes these claims were more figurative — most western cultures had a really different conception of sex than we do now. (Remember, this was before scientists knew much about sex chromosomes in humans.) The prevailing idea of sex at the time was something called "balance theory" — this idea that every person was born with a little bit of male stuff and a little bit of female stuff inside of them, and that that balance could shift. So if a woman was always a little bit cuspy — maybe only 70 percent woman — if she did manly things, like sports, she could actually turn into a man.

    The eugenics of it all
    When you start looking into the modern era of sex testing, and the athletes who have been impacted, it doesn't take long to notice something. Every woman who I am aware of who has been flagged and singled out under gender verification policies since 2009 is a Black or brown woman from the Global South. Most of them are from Africa.

    But advocates for sex testing policies counter that the science is on their side here, because research shows that DSDs are more common in Africa.

    ...

    the idea that DSDs, this broad category, were more common in Africa, this hugely diverse place, doesn't make sense.

    The place that this claim comes from originally is a masters thesis from 1970, by a South African researcher named Hatherley James Grace titled, "Intersex in Four South African Racial Groups in Durban."

    Even just those basic facts might give us pause. This was a white geneticist working in apartheid South Africa on genetic differences between white and Black Africans. And he states explicitly that his goal is to prove that what he calls intersex conditions are more prevalent in Black Africans.

    The paper in fact laments the fact that he could not prove that Black Africans were more likely to have these variations in sex biology. Of course he blames Black folks for this, for not self reporting their conditions enough.

    It's almost like it's always eugenics and racism underneath it all.

    20 votes
  5. [10]
    kacey
    Link
    A journalist linked to a surprisingly decent New York Times article: How a Campaign Against Transgender Rights Mobilized Conservatives (2023) (archive). A couple choice quotes: tl;dr is that this...

    A journalist linked to a surprisingly decent New York Times article: How a Campaign Against Transgender Rights Mobilized Conservatives (2023) (archive). A couple choice quotes:

    When the Supreme Court declared a constitutional right to same-sex marriage nearly eight years ago, social conservatives were set adrift.
    [...]
    “We knew we needed to find an issue that the candidates were comfortable talking about,” said Terry Schilling, the president of American Principles Project, a social conservative advocacy group. “And we threw everything at the wall.”
    What has stuck [...] is the issue of transgender identity [...]. Today, the effort to restrict transgender rights has supplanted same-sex marriage as an animating issue for social conservatives at a pace that has stunned political leaders across the spectrum. It has reinvigorated a network of conservative groups, increased fund-raising and set the agenda in school boards and state legislatures.
    [...]
    The initial efforts by the conservative movement to deploy transgender issues did not go well. In 2016, North Carolina legislators voted to bar transgender people from using the bathroom of their preference. It created a backlash so harsh — from corporations, sports teams and even Bruce Springsteen — that lawmakers eventually rescinded the bill.

    As a result, conservatives went looking for a new approach to the issue. Mr. Schilling’s organization, for instance, conducted polling to determine whether curbing transgender rights had resonance with voters — and, if they did, the best way for candidates to talk about it. In 2019, the group’s research found that voters were significantly more likely to support a Republican candidate who favored a ban on transgender girls participating in school sports — particularly when framed as a question of whether “to allow men and boys to compete against women and girls” — than a candidate pushing for a ban on transgender people using a bathroom of their choosing.

    With that evidence in hand, and transgender athletes gaining attention, particularly in right-wing media, conservatives decided to focus on two main fronts: legislation that addressed participation in sports and laws curtailing the access of minors to medical transition treatments.

    tl;dr is that this "debate" was generated by right wing Americans seeking a topic that could unite their electorate in hate against a convenient minority. There are countless more impactful subjects to be concerned with at present, but a successful propaganda campaign has diverted conversation away from those, while justifying harm to a marginalized community by stripping away their rights for political points.

    Everyone should strongly consider how and why they came to their opinions on this subject. If no one told you about trans people in sports, would you have even thought to care about any of this? There are literally millions of problems to deal with in society; why are you spending mental effort coming to a conclusion on this, a topic which barely affects a handful of people?

    17 votes
    1. [2]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Riley Gaines, a former college swimmer who tied for fifth with Lia Thomas went from saying this right after the meet To this in 2025 Last year she was paid almost $475,000 dollars by the...

      Riley Gaines, a former college swimmer who tied for fifth with Lia Thomas went from saying this right after the meet

      I am in full support of her and full support of her transition and her swimming career...because there's no doubt that she works hard too, but she's just abiding by the rules that the NCAA put in place, and that's the issue."

      To this in 2025

      “It was true then and it’s true now,” Gaines wrote, before again misgendering Thomas. “He’s a man.”

      Last year she was paid almost $475,000 dollars by the conservative Leadership Institute, a higher wage than anyone else including their president or next highest paid person (a VP). It was mostly "bonuses" and is paid $25k per speech for her events and also works for TPUSA.

      That's a very large amount of money for targeting trans people.

      21 votes
      1. kfwyre
        Link Parent
        To add on to this thread: The reason that trans people in sports is a salient issue for many is because it creates a perception of unfairness, and most people want things to be generally fair. If...

        To add on to this thread:

        The reason that trans people in sports is a salient issue for many is because it creates a perception of unfairness, and most people want things to be generally fair.

        If someone is legitimately concerned about fairness (and isn’t just hiding transphobia behind a pretext), then it’s worth sharing with them that, in 2026 alone, there are over 700 bills targeting trans people in the US (and this isn’t counting the hundreds more from previous years).

        20 votes
    2. [6]
      AnthonyB
      Link Parent
      This basically sums up the past 25 years of American politics. One of the big conservative think tanks (Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute, Federalist Society, American Enterprise Institute,...

      tl;dr is that this "debate" was generated by right wing Americans seeking a topic that could unite their electorate in hate against a convenient minority. There are countless more impactful subjects to be concerned with at present, but a successful propaganda campaign has diverted conversation away from those, while justifying harm to a marginalized community by stripping away their rights for political points.

      This basically sums up the past 25 years of American politics. One of the big conservative think tanks (Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute, Federalist Society, American Enterprise Institute, etc.) comes up with a hot button culture war issue to rile up the base, the others get to work on the legal/legislative aspects, and conservative media outlets pump those issues day and night. Trans women in sports, CRT, "free speech" on college campuses, "the sanctity of marriage," etc., they all came from conservative think tanks.

      13 votes
      1. [3]
        kacey
        Link Parent
        Oh, agreed. The article even notes that the current focus on the rights of transgender individuals to exist only came up because it was becoming more difficult to incite "debate" about gay...

        Oh, agreed. The article even notes that the current focus on the rights of transgender individuals to exist only came up because it was becoming more difficult to incite "debate" about gay marriage. They literally ran surveys to optimize who to attack next, and trans people in sports polled the best. Even entertaining the idea that there's something to "debate" about serves the purposes of truly vile individuals who desire nothing but power and domination over others.

        But after the topic comes up, how does one even talk people out of continuing to "debate"? Pretending that this is an actual problem lends it legitimacy, and whispering it into the ears of countless millions is certain to radicalize a few otherwise sane individuals. In an effective bigot's list of the top 100 issues that affect white people, or whatever, this wouldn't make it close to the leaderboard: we're talking about it because it's contentious, not because it's impactful.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          nukeman
          Link Parent
          One of the big factors that boosted support for gay marriage was folks meeting and interacting with gays and lesbians. Actually knowing one IRL rather than just interfacing with a boogeyman...

          One of the big factors that boosted support for gay marriage was folks meeting and interacting with gays and lesbians. Actually knowing one IRL rather than just interfacing with a boogeyman stereotype was immensely helpful.

          8 votes
          1. TaylorSwiftsPickles
            Link Parent
            Similarly, this is a big reason why I'm absolutely proud to be visibly trans.

            Similarly, this is a big reason why I'm absolutely proud to be visibly trans.

            11 votes
    3. slade
      Link Parent
      I couldn't agree more. This is something I've felt for most of my life: The sheer time and energy and wealth that goes into fighting against people quietly living their lives is upsetting. What...

      I couldn't agree more. This is something I've felt for most of my life:

      why are you spending mental effort coming to a conclusion on this, a topic which barely affects a handful of people

      The sheer time and energy and wealth that goes into fighting against people quietly living their lives is upsetting. What would happen if we took every dollar spent on *-phobic lobbying and theater and spent it on, I don't know, healthcare and education? I wonder how things might look different?

      3 votes
  6. [18]
    Chiasmic
    Link
    I will preface this comment by saying I am not making a statement about how things are, but asking a hypothetical question not necessarily based on reality: if transgender female athletes did have...

    I will preface this comment by saying I am not making a statement about how things are, but asking a hypothetical question not necessarily based on reality: if transgender female athletes did have an advantage over biological/AFAB female athletes, AND this was a wide spread problem, what is the most compassionate way to address it, balancing the needs/desires of all athletes?

    12 votes
    1. [5]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Genuinely I personally don't think the hypothetical is worth engaging with. Nuanced regulations are always better than blanket bans. There are science based guidelines that have been used before...

      Genuinely I personally don't think the hypothetical is worth engaging with. Nuanced regulations are always better than blanket bans. There are science based guidelines that have been used before and can be adapted for new futures. And I don't think anyone here is this particular kind of specialist.

      But frankly if we exist in a world where that many women are trans women, then the existing framework based on a clear-cut sex-based binary doesn't apply and maintaining it might not be the right thing to do. The percentage of people who would have to be trans for that to happen would be huge. Meaning we no longer exist in a world that assumes two genders and rigid boundaries between them. While personally that's the goal I'd love to see (our current social constructs currently are actively harmful) that would reshape so much of our society it's not the same world anymore.

      And a society that can function like that wouldn't have the same priorities or concerns that ours does. Basically your question relies on a premise that is so fundamentally world changing the question itself is moot.

      10 votes
      1. [4]
        Chiasmic
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I would instead suggest a hypothetical where a relatively small number of transgender athletes are competing, but have a large enough advantage to have a large impact, e.g. where most competitors...

        I would instead suggest a hypothetical where a relatively small number of transgender athletes are competing, but have a large enough advantage to have a large impact, e.g. where most competitors are biological female, but most of the top 10 are transgender. Again, I am not making a statement about whether that is accurate or not (and in this specific example is deliberately stretched to what I assume is the very unrealistic). This would achieve the hypothetical without fundamental world changing in the way you describe.
        I would disagree that the hypothetical is not worth engaging with. My understanding is that this is one of the main concerns of people who do object to transgender participation in female only sports (again not saying it is justified based on reality), and that in itself is important to consider in order to try and understand the drive towards decisions like this by the olympic committee. To be clear, by ‘understand’ I don’t mean agree with, or entertain as accurate, but it is important to be able to understand other people’s views and what drives it in order to engage in dialogue to be able to change their mind to align more with yours. That tends to be more effective than rage and hate, however justified.

        11 votes
        1. [3]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I guess I just don't think you realize how having even five trans women competing at the top of every women's sport would be indicative of the sort of systemic social change I'm describing. There...

          I guess I just don't think you realize how having even five trans women competing at the top of every women's sport would be indicative of the sort of systemic social change I'm describing.

          There are experts in genetics, in hormones, in the data on how all this plays out in sports. I've read studies and analyses. And they're not the ones supporting this move. I understand the "other side" quite well and don't need to engage in a hypothetical with someone else to learn. I don't prefer Socratic methods being used in conversation, it just comes off as patronizing. And as they say, the devil doesn't need an advocate, he's doing pretty well on his own. I know how to change people's minds.

          After all, are you going to consider a hypothetical about whether being gay is an unfair advantage in women's sports? Queer women tend to be overrepresented in certain sports after all. What about Black women in certain sports? There are definitely people who think that Black people are "naturally" better at physical labor and thus sports. It starts to feel icky if we keep going down this rabbit hole of indulging bigoted ideas. I'm really not interested in hypothesizing about something impacting people I love directly.

          It's not happening. It's as pointless to engage with as most ideas based in bigotry are.

          ETA: it's wild to suggest that this is "rage and hate"

          13 votes
          1. [2]
            Chiasmic
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I suspect we just have very different ways of approaching these issues, as you and I often clash in discussions in different threads. I wonder what model you have of me in your head, but I suspect...

            I suspect we just have very different ways of approaching these issues, as you and I often clash in discussions in different threads.
            I wonder what model you have of me in your head, but I suspect it’s different to how I am and how I’m trying to come across.
            I’m not making this hypothetical for you to learn, more for me to help me understand my own thoughts and feelings with the help of others. It’s not meant to be patronising, and I am sad (and sorry) if you interpret it that way. It isn’t intended.

            What methods do you find helpful for discussion? Perhaps I can try those in future if you would like to share. Although I’d prefer it if you didn’t say you don’t like discussion, as that is the point of comment sections, and I would be saddened to hear that.

            From my point of view, in social/political issues, I like to explore why people disagree on points: is it differing evidence, differing morals, logical fallacy or more axiomatic issues? Hypotheticals help isolate facts away from other issues. I find it easier to empathise with others positions following this, understand their argument and see where I differ. Hence my hypothetical question.

            So in answer to your last question, if someone felt that way, I would consider it to try and understand their fears and argument. For me considering something doesn’t mean I accept it or entertain it as true. Where are there concerns and fears? How can that play in to their views? What can I say to challenge views I disagree with which will resonate with them?

            There are people who have an agenda and don’t care for seeking agreement/consensus, but I believe most people are normal people who do care for others, but differ in how they think the best way to achieve that is. I hope shared compassion can bridge most disagreements.

            Edit: and re: rage and hate, I didn’t mean you were raging or hating against me, more the fact of the situation, and perhaps rage and hate was too strong but I couldn’t think of the right word to use to summarise what I meant.

            9 votes
            1. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              For what it's worth, I don't have any model of you. I don't think poorly of you, I just am not interested in engaging in a hypothetical that is not even slightly grounded in reality when neither...

              I wonder what model you have of me in your head, but I suspect it’s different to how I am and how I’m trying to come across.

              For what it's worth, I don't have any model of you. I don't think poorly of you, I just am not interested in engaging in a hypothetical that is not even slightly grounded in reality when neither of us are experts on the actual science or best practices in the field and there is the potential for active harm to the people for whom this is not hypothetical at all. I don't have the right to determine for trans women in sports what is fair to them.

              This is a topic where I have a lot of understanding, I do a lot of research and read studies. I don't mind discussions or answering questions or pointing to the experts who I have found or trust. I am still not an actual expert.

              While I agree that most people do consider themselves kind and care about others, often they exclude certain groups of people from those they consider "people" or "deserving of kindness" especially when engaging in politics and the decision making therein. There's a reason that "but he was such a nice boy/man/teacher" is almost a trope after someone kills people. There's a reason that "prison rape" is a joke included in children's cartoons without a thought about why that's funny.

              I prefer to highlight the cognitive dissonance and correct the thinking errors when challenging folks who are operating in ways that dehumanize others. Sometimes I'll explain the lived experience. Sometimes I'll appeal to the values they claim to have, but aren't portraying. It depends on the person. But I don't believe that engaging the hypothetical is productive because it's so limited.

              Why not imagine a world that's better and build from there, rather than one where the bigots are right and try to figure out how to cope if they are? Because to get to the world where they're kind of right, some actually really cool things would have to be true that when pointed out you discarded because they didn't fit.

              So anyway, nothing personal, I have no idea how we've interacted. Yes I find the Socratic method patronizing but that was my being pre-emptive to avoid going there and to make clear why I'm uninterested in engaging in this sort of game, especially with real people's emotions.

              11 votes
    2. Minori
      Link Parent
      Pretty much this policy. If transgender women actually had a clear biological advantage in all cases (they don't), cis women would be unfairly judged when competing against them. However, this...

      Pretty much this policy. If transgender women actually had a clear biological advantage in all cases (they don't), cis women would be unfairly judged when competing against them. However, this policy doesn't seem to exempt sports where biological sex doesn't matter. Some sports have mens and womens leagues despite there being no advantages either way (usually for historical reasons).

      In reality, there's a lot more nuance that's being ignored. In reality, some transgender people start hormone blockers and never go through their biological puberty. For all intents and purposes, those trans people are the same as cis athletes.

      There's also gray zone on whether someone was a trained athlete before transitioning. That can make a pretty huge difference, depending on the sport.

      7 votes
    3. [10]
      Lia
      Link Parent
      I'm a cis woman and I suck at sports. No matter how much I practice, the performance levels that are attainable to me are average at best. In many other areas investing enough time and focus tends...

      I'm a cis woman and I suck at sports. No matter how much I practice, the performance levels that are attainable to me are average at best. In many other areas investing enough time and focus tends to get me excellent results, but in sports I'm stuck being completely average. And this means that top athletes, every single one of them, trans or not, must have some sort of biological advantage over me. So if someone is a trans woman and has some sort of advantage that is loosely or tightly related to being trans, I see that as part of the same phenomenon: they were simply born to excel at sports in a way that I myself wasn't. It would be ridiculous to try to ban these people from competing in the thing they excel at!

      On to what you asked: if trans women were welcomed completely normally (as I believe they should be) and if this then eventually led to a situation where trans women dominated the competitions disproportionately (which I believe isn't happening at the moment), then the number of professional trans athletes would have to be so great that a third category would be warranted. Maybe call it "open"? Every gender could compete in it, no questions asked. We might get exciting cases where the open world record on something would potentially surpass the men's? Which might entice some male competitors to take part in the open category. I don't watch sports much but I probably would if there was a chance to see women compete against men, with at least some potential to do well.

      6 votes
      1. [9]
        sparksbet
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I mean, the fact that trans women who have undergone HRT don't dominate in women's sports means that we'd never need an open category anyway. I get that it's a hypothetical, but constructing a...

        I mean, the fact that trans women who have undergone HRT don't dominate in women's sports means that we'd never need an open category anyway. I get that it's a hypothetical, but constructing a hypothetical based on the false idea that trans women are crushing cis women in sports cedes way too much to TERF talking points that aren't remotely evidenced by our current reality, and I don't think it makes sense to do so. I think that's why so many people are pushing back on even asking for the hypothetical -- it's like asking "what if everything the TERFs say is true" and then demanding you come up with a non-transphobic outcome. It's kinda rigging the system to accept transphobes' unscientific fearmongering about trans people as scientific fact for your hypothetical.

        In your hypothetical, though, I also don't think a completely open category makes sense if you want there to be any anti-doping regulations, given the existence of trans men, but I don't care enough about sports to have checked what the regulations on that for trans men competing in mens' leagues have been (ofc in women's leagues supplementing with testosterone-based HRT is generally not allowed, which is completely reasonable imo).

        11 votes
        1. [3]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          I believe in Olympic sports trans men have no restrictions on participating if they get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone as of 2022 it looks like with that exemption they were good. If...

          I believe in Olympic sports trans men have no restrictions on participating if they get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone as of 2022 it looks like with that exemption they were good. If they haven't medically transitioned they can generally compete in the women's category.

          And otherwise, as usual, they're ignored because the point is blaming trans women for "hurting" women. I can't currently find anything updated past the 2022 document from the world doping agency

          7 votes
          1. [2]
            sparksbet
            Link Parent
            Oh yeah I mean I didn't expect the current rules definitely to negatively impact trans men directly in the same way they do trans women so that's not too shocking. It just occurred to me that the...

            Oh yeah I mean I didn't expect the current rules definitely to negatively impact trans men directly in the same way they do trans women so that's not too shocking. It just occurred to me that the hypothetical "open" category brought up in that comment would present the same problems for trans men as the existing women's sports typically do, forcing them to choose between HRT and participation.

            4 votes
            1. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              Oh for sure, just went digging into it to see what I could find! Functionally the men's category is mostly an "open" category... Except when they don't want it to, because they don't offer a...

              Oh for sure, just went digging into it to see what I could find! Functionally the men's category is mostly an "open" category... Except when they don't want it to, because they don't offer a women's event at all.

              5 votes
        2. [5]
          Chiasmic
          Link Parent
          I see your points but I still disagree that its not helpful. First, for me it helps show even if this hypothetical were true, it’s still not the right way to do it - banning people would far from...

          I see your points but I still disagree that its not helpful. First, for me it helps show even if this hypothetical were true, it’s still not the right way to do it - banning people would far from compassionate, and their are what seems like better options (even if not needed or optimal), like Lia’s suggestion for an open category. So for me, that shows the weakness of their position, regardless of the facts that they will disagree with. So for your example with what if everything the TERFs say is true, that to me is useful because even if it was all true, most of the stuff I see TERFs come out with is just cruel and illogical. Transphobia is still not logical even if their facts were true. That is what makes their position most illogical and weak to me, as it has moved beyond arguing about the facts.

          And for me it is helpful, as it helps to break down the argument beyond a tussle about facts. It helps me understanding my own feelings on introspection to assess what is right, and persuade other people. Like for instance, my cousin would support this decision as she thinks that it would be unfair for transgender athletes to compete against AFAB females. I don’t really care about sports, so I struggle to empathise with how much she cares. I know she generally is supportive to trans, but she cares about sports and doesn’t find it fair. It’s not based in fact, and when I discuss it with her, the facts matter less, its much more about the feeling of what is fair or not.
          So for her, when she (like many people unfortunately) won’t be swayed by evidence, how would I persuade her to question her stance? She is a generally nice and cares about others, so those arguments going further in persuasion than saying you’re wrong, here are the facts, if you don’t accept them you are a bigot. I find that tact puts people on the defensive and makes them dig their heels in. So I ask the hypothetical to see what points other people might raise that would be useful to reflect back to her when I see her next, when I am sure this story will come up.

          I hope after my explanation you can see why I find the hypothetical helpful.

          7 votes
          1. [4]
            sparksbet
            Link Parent
            I can see your perspective, thank you for the explanation! I'm not sure I fully agree with you there -- I think conceding on facts for hypotheticals too often can frequently lead to bystanders...

            I can see your perspective, thank you for the explanation! I'm not sure I fully agree with you there -- I think conceding on facts for hypotheticals too often can frequently lead to bystanders believing that the incorrect things are actually "the facts", leading to them coming to conclusions based on faulty assumptions, and I think it's difficult rhetorically to navigate hypotheticals like this while avoiding that. I can see where you're coming from when it comes to the potential rhetorical usage of these hypotheticals, but I think it's difficult to balance that with this kind of potential "side effect". But I understand your perspective a lot better now, so thanks for your comment!

            10 votes
            1. [3]
              Chiasmic
              Link Parent
              Yeah that is also a good point. I guess I feel the local Overton window on tildes being pro trans and the proactive moderation makes me think the risk of that is less here. I don’t think I would...

              Yeah that is also a good point. I guess I feel the local Overton window on tildes being pro trans and the proactive moderation makes me think the risk of that is less here. I don’t think I would use such a technique on Reddit for instance, where I can definitely see the side effects being worse.

              4 votes
              1. sparksbet
                Link Parent
                Ah, yeah, that's a fair assessment. I think the risk would be greater someplace like Reddit for sure, but I think I have a more mixed view of Tildes' general userbase. I think it's good that...

                Ah, yeah, that's a fair assessment. I think the risk would be greater someplace like Reddit for sure, but I think I have a more mixed view of Tildes' general userbase. I think it's good that Tildes is a space where blatant, vocal bigotry tends to be quickly shut down by both other users and moderation, but I do think there's a "let's debate everything" culture that can lead to lurkers assessing things based on the pithiest rhetoric rather than the evidence or strength of the arguments (and I don't exclude myself from that -- I think almost anyone on a site like this inevitably does this sometimes). This can cause friction in places like ~lgbt specifically, since it can often feel like even in the space dedicated to discussion of our issues, we're forced to defend ourselves from the same ignorant arguments repeatedly, and I think it's why it's good that Deimos moderates ~lgbt a bit more strictly (at least ime and based on what I recall from discussion on moderation in ~tildes). I think upvote behavior within some controversial threads on topics like these does indicate that we can't hold ourselves as entirely above Redditors in all respects, at least not as a whole, and bystanders who can be misled by the false claims in question do still exist here. So I guess ultimately I think my assessment of the risks of this particular type of rhetoric on Tildes differs from yours.

                8 votes
              2. Drewbahr
                Link Parent
                Quite honestly, I don't think tildes is as pro trans as you're asserting here. Proactive moderation is nice, but there's a lot of "just asking questions" that people engage in, that they are...

                Quite honestly, I don't think tildes is as pro trans as you're asserting here. Proactive moderation is nice, but there's a lot of "just asking questions" that people engage in, that they are unwilling to reconcile with bigotry, conscious or otherwise.

                7 votes
    4. nukeman
      Link Parent
      Ideally a time or score adjustment. In practice I don’t think the biology will be that neat and tidy. I suspect it will vary based on sport.

      Ideally a time or score adjustment. In practice I don’t think the biology will be that neat and tidy. I suspect it will vary based on sport.

      1 vote
  7. Staross
    Link
    As I understand the reasoning is : Genetic factors improves your performance (e.g. via more testosterone) That's not fair ! So we should prevent people with "genetic advantage" to compete The...

    As I understand the reasoning is :

    • Genetic factors improves your performance (e.g. via more testosterone)
    • That's not fair !
    • So we should prevent people with "genetic advantage" to compete

    The issue I see is that probably many top athletes have genetic advantages, should we ban them too ? it seems to me the reasoning above applies. Of course that's not gonna be done because the issue is politically/socially motivated rather than concerned with principles. But it's pretty clear to me that there's no fairness in top-level sport, unless we introduce some kind of "genetic group" with penalties or classes like for the paralympics. Excluding people isn't fair either btw. Maybe paralympics is the future.

    Elite endurance athletes represent a small but important group in the study of sports genetics. These athletes are typically distinguished by their participation at the highest levels of competition, (e.g., Olympic Games) and are characterized by a high maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max), a key determinant of endurance performance.

    Genetics plays a key role in determining elite athlete status, particularly in relation to VO2max. Studies of the heritability of VO2max and its response to training suggest that genetics accounts for 44% to 68% of the variation in this trait among athletes, with adjusted heritability estimates of 44% to 56% when controlling for factors like body weight and fat-free mass. As a polygenic trait, VO2max is influenced by multiple genes and polymorphisms, each of which affects different physiological systems, such as the cardiovascular system, the musculoskeletal system, and the respiratory system. Numerous polymorphisms have been associated with endurance performance and the status of elite endurance athletes, some of which have been highlighted in this review.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11641144/

    7 votes
  8. DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    Sex test used in IOC’s new transgender ban more likely to exclude from Olympics intersex women who were assigned female at birth Just a few ways the new test is not that great

    Sex test used in IOC’s new transgender ban more likely to exclude from Olympics intersex women who were assigned female at birth

    People with androgen insensitivity don’t respond as much to androgens like testosterone. Some believe that having high levels of testosterone can give athletes a competitive advantage. Athletes with this condition gain little or no advantage like muscle growth from androgens. This also means their visible sex characteristics, including their genitals, appear mostly or entirely female. The new IOC policy has an exception for “complete” androgen insensitivity but doesn’t say how athletes would demonstrate this.

    The policy also doesn’t mention partial androgen insensitivity, where androgen receptors respond to testosterone but probably not enough to gain a significant advantage in performance. Nevertheless, athletes with partial androgen insensitivity will presumably fail the test and be excluded from participating under the new policy.

    People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency make and respond to testosterone but make little or none of a more potent androgen called dihydrotestosterone, or DHT. If they have no DHT, their genitals appear more female and they gain less athletic advantage from androgens. People with this condition who have a Y chromosome will fail the new sex test and be excluded.

    People with mosaicism are born with some cells that have a Y chromosome and some that do not. Women can develop mosaicism during pregnancy, when fetal cells with Y chromosomes cross the placenta into her body. The woman will have some cells with a Y chromosome, perhaps for the rest of her life. Such cells could cause a previously pregnant athlete to fail the new test.

    Just a few ways the new test is not that great

    4 votes
  9. [35]
    Pepetto
    Link
    When I have a daughter, I'd like her to be able to have a chance at professional sport if she wants it. There is a continuum between normal physiology and dopped up supersoldier. We have to draw a...

    When I have a daughter, I'd like her to be able to have a chance at professional sport if she wants it.
    There is a continuum between normal physiology and dopped up supersoldier. We have to draw a line somewhere, as arbitrary as it is, or abandon the idea of baseline healthy women playing sport.
    Sure, right now the genetically dopped athletes are naturally occuring and rare, but how long before some superpower organise some breeding program to get more gold medals? Or even genetically engineer them. It's acheivable with current tech. Superpower did organise mass doping when it wasn't well screened for. Wouldn't you rather remove any incentive to do this to people?
    I see some comment suggesting that SRY isn't proven to give an advantage. Please have just a shred of intellectual honnesty.
    We have to agree on sone definition of a baseline woman (for professional sport participation only obviously, i will fight for your right to dress however you want, and yes, some TERF will feel legitimised so we'll have to be vigilant). And some woman barelly outside the definition will suffer, because they won't be able to benefit from what we defined as an unfair advantage. That will be true no matter where you define the limit.

    12 votes
    1. [27]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      Isn't this literally a slippery slope? Trans folks, intersex folks and people with DSD have been around for as long as the Olympics have - and I mean the originals not the modern. This change does...

      Sure, right now the genetically dopped athletes are naturally occuring and rare, but how long before some superpower organise some breeding program to get more gold medals? Or even genetically engineer them. It's acheivable with current tech. Superpower did organise mass doping when it wasn't well screened for. Wouldn't you rather remove any incentive to do this to people?

      Isn't this literally a slippery slope? Trans folks, intersex folks and people with DSD have been around for as long as the Olympics have - and I mean the originals not the modern. This change does nothing to prevent people from "breeding" athletes or genetically modifying any of their other chromosomes. And cis women seem to have been winning the vast majority of sports at all levels.

      If your daughter is genetically gifted enough to be an Olympic athlete she'll already be at the top of the top of her field. Why would her random genetic gifts be acceptable and others not? Trans women aren't "genetically doped" and aren't stopping cis women from competing. If a trans woman never went through "male" puberty via hormone blockers and gender affirming therapy.... Ah but wait we're banning that too.

      The discoverer of the SRY gene says

      Biological sex is much more complex, with chromosomal, gonadal, hormonal and secondary sex characteristics all playing a role. Using SRY to establish biological sex is wrong because all it tells you is whether or not the gene is present.”

      What is the SRY gene test, and should it be used to test female athletes? | The BMJ

      I have plenty of intellectual honesty, it just isn't based on the idea that failing to ban these women from sports will exclude your daughter and lead to the breeding and genetic engineering of athletes for gold medals.

      25 votes
      1. [26]
        Pepetto
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        If the "science" (i know it'll be hard to get everyone to agree what counts as science here, bias is everywhere) shows something doesn't give an advantage, I agree we should define that thing as...

        If the "science" (i know it'll be hard to get everyone to agree what counts as science here, bias is everywhere) shows something doesn't give an advantage, I agree we should define that thing as acceptable in pro sport.
        But I think we should have that debate, not just stick our head in the sand and pretend there aren't some biological differences. If we want women sport to be meaningfully different from man sport, we have to agree on some objective criteria , it cann't just be what the athletes identify as (which i feel is what you apparently want, please tell me if I'm wrong)...
        As you say, genetic giftedness is a continuum. We have to draw a line somewhere between very fit humans and post-humans.
        (Also btw, i would agree someone having their puberty blocked as acceptably not advantaged... see, my point isn't xx is necessary to play pro women sport (even though it's a pretty obvious and easy shelling's fence (doesn't make it right), so not surprising it always comes up...), just that it's unreasonable to refuse to discuss what is acceptable and not in women sport. Wishy washy "everything goes" won't work)

        9 votes
        1. [25]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          There's not the slightest benefit in you and I having that debate. Or any random internet strangers. Especially not in the lgbt subgroup where any "debate" will inherently get into the human...
          • Exemplary

          There's not the slightest benefit in you and I having that debate. Or any random internet strangers. Especially not in the lgbt subgroup where any "debate" will inherently get into the human dignity and civil rights of the folks who this group is for.

          What is happening now is clearly a political reaction not a scientific decision based on evidence and best practices. Prior to the recent wave of anti-trans sentiment and harassment sports mostly set guidelines about having around two years of hormone replacement therapy prior to competing in the women's category. Prior to that the sex testing was discarded in part because it wasn't disqualifying people and in part because a bunch of folks were finding out publicly they had DSDs of some sort. And the existing systems of more nuanced regs was broadly working fairly well. It was probably still not as inclusive as needed in fact, but we did not see trans women or intersex women dominating women's sports.

          Trans women aren't "post humans" and are not genetically engineered super-athletes. And there are many cis women who have DSDs, or high androgen levels like those caused by PCOS that they may never know about. Hell, It's not realistic for us to categorize the entire genome and figure out who is "gifted" and who is "too gifted". (What precisely is the "baseline" and why do I suspect it would be people of European descent, not African women athletes for example... )

          So when a change is being made, without scientific backing, without evidence of an actual problem being solved, I don't think there is a debate to be had. Women's sports mostly get brought up by the general public to harass trans women or mock them. Trans women were banned from swimming after one trans woman tied for fifth with a cis woman. Trans women are banned from women's chess.

          There's no debate, just bigotry. And indulging the idea there is one just buys into the underlying premise. Especially given the comparisons you're making here.
          Regardless of anything else, you said when you have a daughter - if you aren't equally prepared for the child you thought was a son to be your daughter, the child you thought was your daughter to be just your "kid" or any child of yours to have any sort of physical differences from birth or later on, think hard about having kids at all.

          28 votes
          1. [2]
            Minori
            Link Parent
            We may not want the debate, but it exists. "Reasonable concerns" are sometimes real, and we can't win every argument by calling someone a bigot. How do we expect to change hearts and minds by...
            • Exemplary

            There's no debate, just bigotry.

            We may not want the debate, but it exists. "Reasonable concerns" are sometimes real, and we can't win every argument by calling someone a bigot. How do we expect to change hearts and minds by shutting everyone down? If we can't discuss ~lgbt topics in ~lgbt, where can we discuss them?

            Our existence is political. We can bury our heads in the sand and call people bigots or try our best to critically engage them in good faith, as exhausting as it can be.

            14 votes
            1. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              You can do and debate whatever and whomever you want. I do not think there's actually a debate to be had about the IOC's position because it's not based on evidence. I change hearts and minds...

              You can do and debate whatever and whomever you want. I do not think there's actually a debate to be had about the IOC's position because it's not based on evidence. I change hearts and minds other times. Someone demanding to debate me is not inherently owed my time and not all topics are worth debating with anyone who demands it.

              I said elsewhere I'm open to discussion, but debates are not, in my experience, where anyone changes minds. It's where people score points.

              12 votes
          2. [16]
            Pepetto
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Thankfully you have no say on wether or not I have kids, but if it helps you rest easy, I would support my kid no matter what. I do struggle to understand why trans people expose themselves to so...

            Thankfully you have no say on wether or not I have kids, but if it helps you rest easy, I would support my kid no matter what. I do struggle to understand why trans people expose themselves to so much pain instead of just going with their asigned gender, i trully wouldn't care myself, but understanding isn't required for love.

            If I have bigotry, then it's uncounscious bigotry, and I'd rather express it to have a chance to work myself out of it. This isn't some LGBT safe space, this thread turned up in my rss feed so I commented. I challenge you to ever (now and in the futur) find me being anti trans, i'll donate $50 to some lgbt activist association of your choice if you find anything.

            I don't think giving the Rock hormone replacement therapy for just 2 years would stop him from crushing any woman at any sport (well actually not litteraly, but you see my point, men are at least one SD stronger than women, once puberty kicked in you cann't go back). So the new guidelines, despite being politically motivated, seem like an improvement.

            I don't think the number of high level trans athlete is really worth taking into consideration. Either they have an advantage, or they don't. Dopping isn't ok if just a few people do it.

            Just because distinguishing gifted and "too gifted" is hard and at least a bit subjective, doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted as best we can.

            Now about debate between internet stranger being worseless, I disagree. You cann't just decide that any position you strongly feel about shouldn't even be debated. I probably don't vote in your country, but I do vote somewhere so this is a golden opportunity to at least soften my views (assuming my views need softening, which is usually a fair assumption). You cann't just assume everyone's position is frozen. Did everyone you agree with always start off fully agreeing with you always?

            7 votes
            1. [5]
              TaylorSwiftsPickles
              Link Parent
              As a certifiedTM intersex trans woman, I find this perspective very misinformed - what pain did I expose myself to, really? My transition itself has been nothing but joy. My mind is at peace, and...
              • Exemplary

              I do struggle to understand why trans people expose themselves to so much pain instead of just going with their asigned gender, i trully wouldn't care myself, but understanding isn't required for love.

              As a certifiedTM intersex trans woman, I find this perspective very misinformed - what pain did I expose myself to, really?

              My transition itself has been nothing but joy. My mind is at peace, and my body and face finally mostly align with what my brain was expecting to always see in any reflection or picture of myself, and every day I change for the better. My mental health has improved sharply. I'm just myself and I do whatever I like without having to put on an act. My partner loves me just the same. My work environment fully accepts me, and my boss is really happy with my work. My women colleagues ask me for advice for "girl stuff". My friends like me just the same and our relationships have gotten a lot better, and I even met some new and super amazing friends (girls and enbies, you know who you are) whom I feel like I've known for forever. Strangers consistently gender me correctly, almost always, and nobody has ever given a fuck about me being trans, in any meaningful way. My government recognises me fully as a woman and has deleted any mention of the opposite. Hell, I even get cyclical symptoms without even having an uterus, and if anyone wants to debate this as "delusional", come do come talk to me when, say, I have horrible stomach cramps, my legs feel painful as fuck, and I'm sobbing at random meaningless things for a few days every ~26 days without me tracking it in any way at all until I realise month after month "shit, so THIS is why I've been feeling like that".

              All my conscious life - since was around 2 or 3 - I've been a woman in every way other than presentation, whether I accepted it or not. I was acutely aware of this as a 3 year old kid, before I even knew being trans was a thing. I was always expecting to see a girl as my reflection even when I knew my parents seemingly gave birth to a boy. All my life, I did not have a masculine gender identity at all. All my life - but especially as puberty started when I was in elementary school - I lived through intense, debilitating gender dysphoria without my consent. It's not something I ever chose. It's not something I ever desired. I never consciously made any choice or decision. It was completely outside my own control and no amount of "trying" ever fixed it. I tried for years - decades - to convince myself I don't need to transition; to convince myself to at least survive like that, if not live; to convince myself to live an unsuspecting life and take 0 risks; to not potentially ruin anything and just secretly suffer without ever desiring to suffer. It did not work in the slightest, and at the end it only made things worse for me. I could've transitioned, say, 11 years ago, and things might've been even better.
              At school and at summer camp, I was "bullied" (lol) about "walking like a woman". Outside, 10-15 years before I even actually accepted myself and started transitioning, I was semi-regularly getting gendered as a woman. My own parents, until I came out to them, thought I was a closeted flamboyant gay man or some shit all my life. Everyone I'd ever pseudonymously met on the internet always "clocked me" as a woman, even when visual hints (e.g. me playing a male character on a game) said otherwise. Every person I'd ever dated told me I was "a very weird guy that was somehow very unlike every other guy they'd met" and "a lot more similar to their girl/women friends".

              I no longer feel like my brain and body are two separate entities; I'm no longer dissociated 24/7; I no longer feel like a Lovecraftian horror walking in a world it does not belong; I finally have a sense of self; my own mother finally sees life in my eyes; I mostly no longer feel the urge to vomit every time I see myself naked; I mostly no longer feel this dreadful sense of body horror about my entire existence; I no longer feel the shame I used to feel 24/7 about perceived as a man; I no longer feel detached from the people I care about; I no longer feel like my life is just a waiting lobby for death; I no longer feel the 1000 HP of physical and mental damage every time someone refers to me using masculine-coded grammar because they didn't know better; I no longer feel like my brain is underclocked and barely functioning; I no longer have to be an actor all the time and put on an act for my whole life, and so on.

              But see the difference. Nowhere above did I actually expose myself to any form of pain, consciously. Nowhere above did I make a choice to feel pain. A pain was always there, regardless of whether I would actually transition or not. Transition - something completely inevitable for me - was a sort of healing from all of this; not a source of pain or suffering, but in fact the opposite.

              @DefinitelyNotAFae and @sparksbet - as always, I genuinely thank you for all your contributions to this thread. I don't check tildes almost at all anymore but two are amazing and I adore you both.

              12 votes
              1. sparksbet
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                The feeling is definitely mutual, I always love seeing your comments! Honestly when it comes to my own answer to this question, I never experienced the "wanna throw up" levels of physical...
                • Exemplary

                The feeling is definitely mutual, I always love seeing your comments!

                Honestly when it comes to my own answer to this question, I never experienced the "wanna throw up" levels of physical dysphoria -- mine was much more akin to having a little rock stuck in your shoe. Sure, you can keep walking just fine, it's a mere constant annoyance, but if you're able to take it out, why not? I didn't immensely suffer from my breasts, but now that I've had top surgery I'm a lot happier without them.

                I find the wording of the initial question very interesting because, like. I was never all that good at "going with my assigned gender". I sucked at being a woman, and I still suck at it. My options were not "woman or trans struggle", they were "fail at womanhood or try something different." The social roles and expectations women are often expected to fill can be a prison even for cis women. I've never been good at filling them, and any opportunity to escape feels like magic. There's a Sylvia Plath quote about the constriction of living as a woman that deeply resonated with me when I first heard it:

                Yes, my consuming desire is to mingle with road crews, sailors and soldiers, barroom regulars—to be a part of a scene, anonymous, listening, recording—all this is spoiled by the fact that I am a girl, a female always supposedly in danger of assault and battery. My consuming interest in men and their lives is often misconstrued as a desire to seduce them, or as an invitation to intimacy. Yes, God, I want to talk to everybody as deeply as I can. I want to be able to sleep in an open field, to travel west, to walk freely at night...

                I've watched a fair bit of travel content of young men traveling across countries and continents and meeting strangers and experiencing surprising friendship and connections (the current tip2tip is an example of the type of content, but I've also watched a lot of GeoWizard doing similar hitchhiking content) and it always has resulted in me feeling an overwhelming sense of what Plath describes in this quote. I wish I could do these things and experience these things, but I couldn't because I've been trapped in this box with the word "woman" written on it. Once, when I was an egg, I told my therapist that the label "woman" felt like an anvil hanging over my head. I remember, back when I was an egg, feeling euphoria when a redditor called me "he" in an argument -- one in which he heatedly disagreed with me (I don't remember what the argument was about, but it was probably something stupid), but I felt absolute joy at him assessing me as another person in that argument rather than a Woman.

                Realistically, I think if I was born a man I would also have been bad at fulfilling those gender roles, and I'd have ended up with completely different baggage due to my failure to fill society's roles for men, too. Under those circumstances, I'd probably find embracing the feminine freeing in a way it isn't for me currently. My internal experience is something weird and mixed that I tend not to label unless it's relevant for a conversation. And as far as the external world is concerned, I desperately want us to just treat people like fucking people and stop forcing people into these stupid gendered boxes.

                Also, while I don't have any intersex conditions that I'm directly aware of, I do have elevated testosterone for someone who's afab despite not being on any HRT, so I don't think some sporting bodies would consider me a woman either anyway. That kinda rules me out from just going with my gender assigned at birth in the course of this conversation. Of course I've never been remotely athletic and thus never competed in sports at a level where anyone remotely suspected me of having genetic advantages, so this has never been an issue for me irl. But I do wonder what people who see the alternatives as suffering through transition and just going with your assigned gender think people like me should be doing.

                7 votes
              2. DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                Thank you so much for sharing your experience, the feeling is mutual ( ◜‿◝ )♡

                Thank you so much for sharing your experience, the feeling is mutual (⁠ ⁠◜⁠‿⁠◝⁠ ⁠)⁠♡

                6 votes
              3. [2]
                Pepetto
                Link Parent
                I meant about exposing oneself to bigotry, discrimination, or even just misunderstandings... (but comments here seem to point to that I may have overestimated those things?). I could be...

                I meant about exposing oneself to bigotry, discrimination, or even just misunderstandings... (but comments here seem to point to that I may have overestimated those things?). I could be bodyswapped right now into either sex, or an asexual robot, whatever, and I think i'd just behave however is expected of me within reason, because it is easy to go with the flow. and I intellectually understand that trans people have a strong affinity for behaving one gender, I just can't "emotionnaly" understand how they could have such a strong affinity... it doesn't compute (to me). Just like I abstractly know some people really care about realityTV but i can't emulate their though process. I guess reading about all your explanation of it should probably help, so thank you for taking the time.

                but, as I said, full understanding isn't required. I don't need to understand why you'd rather use one particular set of pronouns to know to use that set when the need comes up.

                4 votes
                1. TaylorSwiftsPickles
                  Link Parent
                  I feel like things on the internet make these things seem a lot more common than they actually are. I come from and live in some relatively *-phobic, conservative-leaning countries, and even then...

                  I meant about exposing oneself to bigotry, discrimination, or even just misunderstandings...

                  I feel like things on the internet make these things seem a lot more common than they actually are. I come from and live in some relatively *-phobic, conservative-leaning countries, and even then I've not really been exposed to bigotry, discrimination, violence, etc. due to being visibly trans. Everyone's been treating me like a normal person, and at worst might just stare at me a bit but mind their own business. I feel like - at least in my own lived experiences - aside from a very small minority of people, the majority of people don't really give all that much a fuck.

                  I just can't "emotionnaly" understand how they could have such a strong affinity... it doesn't compute (to me). but, as I said, full understanding isn't required. I don't need to understand why you'd rather use one particular set of pronouns to know to use that set when the need comes up.

                  But yeah, I completely agree that full understanding isn't (or shouldn't be) required; it's basic decency after all.

                  5 votes
            2. [5]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              Correct. I just made a recommendation that you only have kids if you can accept them regardless of their gender identity, dis/ability, or intersex status, among other things. Consider that for...

              Thankfully you have no say on wether or not I have kids,

              Correct. I just made a recommendation that you only have kids if you can accept them regardless of their gender identity, dis/ability, or intersex status, among other things.

              but if it helps you rest easy, I would support my kid no matter what. I do struggle to understand why trans people expose themselves to so much pain instead of just going with their asigned gender, i trully wouldn't care myself, but understanding isn't required for love.

              Consider that for some people existing as their gender assigned at birth is far more painful than the pain you're describing. That "not caring" thing you feel sounds like "being cis." (It could be some gender apathy as well).

              I challenge you.

              No.

              I don't think giving the Rock hormone replacement therapy for just 2 years would stop him from crushing any woman at any sport (well actually not litteraly, but you see my point, men are at least one SD stronger than women, once puberty kicked in you cann't go back). So the new guidelines, despite being politically motivated, seem like an improvement.

              See as far as we know the Rock is a man, not a woman so it's not relevant. And he's not an athlete in a sports sense. He's not a peak Olympian, he's peak "looking pretty on camera." And even if we assume he isn't taking some sort of gender affirming hormones to get his current build, research is more valuable than either of our opinions on a random celebrity who isn't, at 53 years old, becoming an Olympic athlete.

              I don't think the number of high level trans athlete is really worth taking into consideration. Either they have an advantage, or they don't. Dopping isn't ok if just a few people do it.

              So it seems like they don't then, since they're not winning things, maybe we could go full Harrison Bergeron and provide everyone with a handicap to the average person. Problem solved, everyone will be exactly the same amount of gifted. I'm being facetious but the research does not support trans people having any significant advantage, no matter what you imagine the Rock to do. Certainly not more advantage than money and training provide and we don't test and ban people for that.

              Now about debate between internet stranger being worseless, I disagree. You cann't just decide that any position you strongly feel about shouldn't even be debated. I probably don't vote in your country, but I do vote somewhere so this is a golden opportunity to at least soften my views (assuming my views need softening, which is usually a fair assumption). You cann't just assume everyone's position is frozen. Did everyone you agree with always start off fully agreeing with you always?

              You are free to disagree. I am not seeking a golden opportunity. As you said, this is not a "safe space." And as I don't control whether you have a kid, you don't control my decisions nor my assumptions.

              I do hope, as you mentioned, you work through any subconscious bigotry/implicit bias you may find you have and I wish you luck with that.

              14 votes
              1. [4]
                Pepetto
                Link Parent
                Yeah, the rock was a pretty poor exemple, I just couldn't think of a well known male athlete. You haven't addressed the point though. Biological men are obviously stronger than biological women (...

                Yeah, the rock was a pretty poor exemple, I just couldn't think of a well known male athlete.
                You haven't addressed the point though. Biological men are obviously stronger than biological women ( I looked into it since last comment and it's indeed more complicated than just having more SRY, otherwise you'd expect XYY to dominate in men sport) but however it works, there is something giving an advantage, why deny that? And how can you think just 2 years of hormones is enough to negate that advantage?

                no.

                So you can just imply i'm bigoted and not even point out what you're talking about. Nice!

                4 votes
                1. [3]
                  DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  It sounds like looking into the topic more would help you feel more comfortable engaging in this kind of discussion. I linked another good article below that itself has a number of citations. I...

                  Yeah, the rock was a pretty poor exemple, I just couldn't think of a well known male athlete.

                  It sounds like looking into the topic more would help you feel more comfortable engaging in this kind of discussion. I linked another good article below that itself has a number of citations. I highly recommend it.

                  You haven't addressed the point though. Biological men are obviously stronger than biological women ( I looked into it since last comment and it's indeed more complicated than just having more SRY, otherwise you'd expect XYY to dominate in men sport) but however it works, there is something giving an advantage, why deny that? And how can you think just 2 years of hormones is enough to negate that advantage?

                  All men are not stronger than all women, bell curves overlap after all. Btw "Biological" is unclear as to whether you mean chromosomal, hormonal, or any other number of nuanced categories of sex or gender.

                  I've addressed the point, you just don't believe it, and wonder how I can think it. I'm basing my opinions on the research I've read and watching how trans women don't dominate a sport.

                  no.

                  So you can just imply i'm bigoted and not even point out what you're talking about. Nice!

                  No, I declined to participate in your "challenge" because it's weird and I don't want to. I don't believe I implied you were bigoted but please let me know which thing it was that gave you the impression.

                  11 votes
                  1. [2]
                    Pepetto
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    I said I'd leave you alone, so just one last thing in the interest of answering your closing question about what gave me the impression you implied I was a bigot: I recognise you didn't blatently...

                    I said I'd leave you alone, so just one last thing in the interest of answering your closing question about what gave me the impression you implied I was a bigot:

                    There's no debate, just bigotry. And indulging the idea there is one just buys into the underlying premise. Especially given the comparisons you're making here.

                    you don't control my decisions nor my assumptions.

                    I do hope, as you mentioned, you work through any subconscious bigotry/implicit bias you may find you have and I wish you luck with that.

                    I recognise you didn't blatently call me a bigot, and I probably wouldn't have reacted so badly if not for the "don't have kids" comment which gave me a knee jerk reaction for personal reasons.

                    3 votes
                    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                      Link Parent
                      Allow me to clarify those comments "There's no debate just bigotry" is my referring to the IOC decision and that I'm not interested in entertaining a debate about it because it's not based on...

                      Allow me to clarify those comments

                      "There's no debate just bigotry" is my referring to the IOC decision and that I'm not interested in entertaining a debate about it because it's not based on actual evidence of unfair advantage. To me there is no debate to be had.

                      "You don't control my decisions or assumptions" was in response to you saying "You can't just decide...." And in the same paragraph referencing making assumptions about you. I can just decide not to debate either a topic or a person. And I mirrored your phrasing in stating I don't control whether or not you have kids, to which I agreed, by stating you similarly don't control my actions.

                      The last one was in response to

                      If I have bigotry, then it's uncounscious bigotry

                      And is why I specified "as you mentioned" and that if you found you did have some you that you would be able to work through it. That is a genuine wish and not one exclusive to you.

                      I'll also note that you "challenged" me to find you saying something bigoted. While I declined, and continue to, it does not convince me that you would have taken it well had I accepted.

                      I also didn't say "don't have kids". I meant what I said but I didn't say that.

                      7 votes
            3. Minori
              Link Parent
              Same reason people take antidepressants and deal with the side effects. On the whole, their life is still better. There are some people that weigh the options and decide not to transition. They...

              I do struggle to understand why trans people expose themselves to so much pain instead of just going with their asigned gender, i trully wouldn't care myself, but understanding isn't required for love.

              Same reason people take antidepressants and deal with the side effects. On the whole, their life is still better. There are some people that weigh the options and decide not to transition. They live with their gender dysphoria, however much they have.

              For most trans people that transition, they do it to solve a legitimate medical issue. They have severe distress (gender dysphoria) which is only treated by transitioning.

              Controversially, I think people really overstate the pain of transitioning. While it varies by country, most people really aren't that hateful to transgender people. Medically, it's pretty straightforward too.

              14 votes
            4. [4]
              nukeman
              Link Parent
              ~lgbt actually is intended to be a safe space with minimal “debate.”

              ~lgbt actually is intended to be a safe space with minimal “debate.”

              12 votes
              1. Minori
                Link Parent
                I don't want weekly, "should queer people exist?" debates, but I'd hope we can discuss lgbt topics in good faith here.

                I don't want weekly, "should queer people exist?" debates, but I'd hope we can discuss lgbt topics in good faith here.

                10 votes
              2. [2]
                kacey
                Link Parent
                Just popping in. The description is currently this: I was going to make a thread in ~tildes to have it amended, when I first read the parent to the above comment, to include that it's a safe...

                Just popping in. The description is currently this:

                This group includes discussions and news regarding LGBT-related topics. The umbrella term "LGBT" includes all minority sexualities and gender identities. Everybody is welcome to participate.

                I was going to make a thread in ~tildes to have it amended, when I first read the parent to the above comment, to include that it's a safe space, but I wasn't sure what the community was looking for. Figure it's worth starting, then, at least to have the discussion?

                5 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  Per the most recent group update pinned in ~tildes it seemed intended that moderation would be more stringent here, in part if I understand correctly, due to queer people leaving the site over...

                  Per the most recent group update pinned in ~tildes it seemed intended that moderation would be more stringent here, in part if I understand correctly, due to queer people leaving the site over previous homophobic replies/users.

                  I see it as a community space, not private nor necessarily "safe" but one where the people who it applies to are prioritized over people who just want to debate our rights.

                  11 votes
          3. [6]
            Maxi
            Link Parent
            Regardless of the fact that you disagree with /u/Pepetto the above is very rude and uncalled for and in my opinion is not in spirit with how one should act on Tildes.

            Especially given the comparisons you're making here.
            Regardless of anything else, you said when you have a daughter - if you aren't equally prepared for the child you thought was a son to be your daughter, the child you thought was your daughter to be just your "kid" or any child of yours to have any sort of physical differences from birth or later on, think hard about having kids at all.

            Regardless of the fact that you disagree with /u/Pepetto the above is very rude and uncalled for and in my opinion is not in spirit with how one should act on Tildes.

            4 votes
            1. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              I don't think that "if you have kids, you should be prepared to care for them equally whether they're cis or trans" should be considered controversial or inappropriate to express on Tildes tbqh.

              I don't think that "if you have kids, you should be prepared to care for them equally whether they're cis or trans" should be considered controversial or inappropriate to express on Tildes tbqh.

              10 votes
            2. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              I do not agree with your opinion and I believe very firmly that no one should have a child if they aren't ok with having a trans child, because their kid might be trans. Given the context of...

              I do not agree with your opinion and I believe very firmly that no one should have a child if they aren't ok with having a trans child, because their kid might be trans. Given the context of wanting one's daughter to be able to participate in sports there seemed an assumption of having a cis daughter negatively impacted by the participation of trans girls.

              You may find it too personal, or presumptuous, but that statement has absolutely nothing to do with whether I agree or not on another topic and was not said out of malice but as a genuine plea. I work with college students and I see far too many in my office because of how their parents invalidate them, disown them, and otherwise mistreat them in a world that currently supports the parents for "not giving in to their delusions."

              So I may be rude, but I'm being genuine and honest.

              9 votes
            3. [3]
              Pepetto
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Thank you Maxi for defending me and also tildes' de facto unofficial code of conduct, but even thought I reacted poorly for personal reason when (edit) she said it, I do agree with...

              Thank you Maxi for defending me and also tildes' de facto unofficial code of conduct, but even thought I reacted poorly for personal reason when he (edit) she said it, I do agree with DefinitelyNotAFae that my kid might not turn out how I expect, so I should be ready to love them no matter what. I'm not sure it was said with good intention, but the advice is sound. but yeah, passing judgement on who should get to have kids is a very touchy subject (rightfully so).

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                To be clear, my pronouns are she/they.

                To be clear, my pronouns are she/they.

                7 votes
                1. Pepetto
                  Link Parent
                  Sorry, (right after I specifically mentioned respecting pronouns is just basic decency, I know this seems voluntary, I'll prove it wasn't by being super extra carefull next time.)

                  Sorry,
                  (right after I specifically mentioned respecting pronouns is just basic decency, I know this seems voluntary, I'll prove it wasn't by being super extra carefull next time.)

                  5 votes
    2. [3]
      cheep_cheep
      Link Parent
      As a woman who competed in women's sports through high school, I would not feel disadvantaged if a trans or intersex athlete was on my team. My feeling about sports is that they're supposed to...

      As a woman who competed in women's sports through high school, I would not feel disadvantaged if a trans or intersex athlete was on my team. My feeling about sports is that they're supposed to represent camaraderie and teamwork, especially at younger ages, and for people who don't fall neatly into the binary, we can actually do a lot toward inclusion and community building by allowing all people to participate. The vast majority of children are just playing for fun, they're not going to have any career success in sports, and it's nonsensical to me that we should try "protecting" children from their peers because we want them to have the best chance to win trophies and titles. Trophies and titles don't mean shit. People do.

      When you start thinking about more elite levels - say, the NCAA system or international competitions (various world cups) - I think it's best to ask other athletes, and in particular, the athletes competing in women's sports. Many and maybe even most athletes accept their teammates and support them. And can we please consider what we are doing when we try so hard to define "what is a "real" woman" for sporting purposes? It's about who's best at running real fast or jumping real high and who gets to put the shiny piece of metal around their neck. I love almost all sports and I will watch almost anything, but elevating trinkets and bragging rights over our humanity is totally missing the point, in my opinion. Are these the values we think are most important??? There have been so many studies about how sex is not easily divided into categories, and attempts to "biologically" define what is fair to women have been messy and inconsistent, leading to the current IOC that completely lacks nuance. I don't think this makes sports better, it is invasive and bigoted toward women. I would absolutely rather have an committee of current female athletes work together to come up with a policy they are comfortable with, especially if they will need to undergo invasive testing that can be made public accidentally or through malice.

      17 votes
      1. [2]
        Pepetto
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Sounds like a pretty good solution to me. (With some edge case about defining who is eligible to be part of the committee, and also plenty of woman are not very trans friendly, but seems...

        an committee of current female athletes work together to come up with a policy they are comfortable with, especially if they will need to undergo invasive testing that can be made public accidentally or through malice.

        Sounds like a pretty good solution to me. (With some edge case about defining who is eligible to be part of the committee, and also plenty of woman are not very trans friendly, but seems workable.) Thank you.

        Now when there are medals and glory to be had, it really is a competition, not some "spirit of camaraderie" but whatever. Your solution still sounds good.

        4 votes
        1. cheep_cheep
          Link Parent
          To be clear, I count intersex and transwomen in that group, and they should be represented as participants, because they are. Glory and competition are secondary to fairness, and bigotry shouldn't...

          To be clear, I count intersex and transwomen in that group, and they should be represented as participants, because they are. Glory and competition are secondary to fairness, and bigotry shouldn't have any place at all, especially in the Olympics. Bigotry is unfortunately what the IOC's current policy is compared to their old one, which did genuinely (if ham-fistedly) attempt to really dig down into what was "fair" - I assume that they abandoned the entire data-based approach because there is a lot of gray, and there is no "right" "scientific" answer, which is why they turned instead to a simply defined but highly inaccurate categorical division.

          If I were a cis female athlete, I would be doing everything in my power to boycott the Olympics, because hell the fuck no i'm not subjecting myself to genetic testing. It's none of their fucking business.

          8 votes
    3. [4]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      You can just say you only care about excluding people without even caring about the actual evidence that it causes an advantage or the fact that other genetic factors that do provably provide...

      I see some comment suggesting that SRY isn't proven to give an advantage. Please have just a shred of intellectual honnesty.

      You can just say you only care about excluding people without even caring about the actual evidence that it causes an advantage or the fact that other genetic factors that do provably provide advantages do not prevent anyone from competing.

      What if your daughter ended up being one of those people who they decide doesn't count as a real woman because of something she can't control? You don't even consider that option, even though it's not even that unlikely for her to unknowingly have genes that exclude her under this new IOC rule without either of you having any knowledge of it. But you don't think of being intersex/having a DSD as being things that could affect people you care about. You've already lumped all of those people outside the category of people who deserve to be included the way you want your daughter to be.

      And if you're so worried about me intellectual honesty, I'll be clear. I don't think these people should be excluded even if their DSDs did convey a competitive advantage, and the fact that we have so little evidence of any actual competitive advantage is just icing on the cake. The fact that you have to fear-monger about slippery-slope generic engineering and then ring your hands about my "intellectual dishonesty" is absurd. The problem here isn't that I lack intellectual honesty, it's that you lack compassion for people who you don't think are equal to you and yours.

      16 votes
      1. [3]
        Pepetto
        Link Parent
        Hold on, I did consider she could be one of the unfortunate one excluded from pro sport by this, I just didn't think i had to mention every single possible outcome. Yes it is perfectly possible....

        Hold on, I did consider she could be one of the unfortunate one excluded from pro sport by this, I just didn't think i had to mention every single possible outcome. Yes it is perfectly possible. In this case i'd understand that we have to draw a line somewhere.
        I realise me calling you intellectually dishonnest is hurtfull, but I'll have to double down on that. Do you just define everyone who disagree with you as evil people who lack compassion?
        Also, you realise slippery slope isn't inherently invalid reasonning... Aren't we regularly worried about slippery slope with reguard to ensgitification and AI?

        10 votes
        1. [2]
          sparksbet
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I have no interest in having further discussion with you about any topic whatsoever, including whether the slippery slope from "intersex and trans people exist" to "doped-up super soldiers" is...

          I have no interest in having further discussion with you about any topic whatsoever, including whether the slippery slope from "intersex and trans people exist" to "doped-up super soldiers" is unreasonable, not only because the way you've used it is so obviously absurd and fallacious that refusing to acknowledge it indicates you're completely unwilling to approach a discussion on a remotely grounded or rational basis, but also because the shit you've said in other comments here makes it clear you don't actually care about either the evidence or what trans and intersex people have to say. I say you lack compassion because it's evidenced in your comments, and your refusal to engage with any evidence but your own feelings is far more intellectually dishonest than anything I've said here (none of which you've presented a shred of evidence is even incorrect, much less presented in bad faith as would be entailed by intellectual dishonesty). I've had productive conversations with people who disagree with me about trans issues before, but not with someone who treats me with as much disrespect as you do. If Tildes had a block function, I'd have used it by now.

          9 votes
          1. Pepetto
            Link Parent
            I confident you assume too much about my personality and motivation. For your comfort, I'll try not to comment on thread where you do from now on.

            I confident you assume too much about my personality and motivation.

            For your comfort, I'll try not to comment on thread where you do from now on.

            1 vote
  10. [4]
    kallisti
    Link
    I'm at the point where I'm sick of all this weird posturing and maybe instead we should just have an Olympics where every form of doping is allowed and we get to see how far the human body really...

    I'm at the point where I'm sick of all this weird posturing and maybe instead we should just have an Olympics where every form of doping is allowed and we get to see how far the human body really can be pushed.

    2 votes
    1. [3]
      DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      I understand the impulse though I don't agree, but also don't love the comparison of trans folks and doping since they're two very different topics.

      I understand the impulse though I don't agree, but also don't love the comparison of trans folks and doping since they're two very different topics.

      9 votes
      1. [2]
        kallisti
        Link Parent
        Sorry, I should probably be more specific that it's the IOC making that comparison, not me.

        Sorry, I should probably be more specific that it's the IOC making that comparison, not me.

        3 votes