37 votes

What have we liberals done to the US west coast?

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126 comments

  1. [50]
    gryfft
    Link
    I can't help but read this as concern trolling. The bit about tampons in kindergarten boys' restroom is set up to be an eye roller, but researching the actual implementation, it's K-12 schools...
    • Exemplary

    I can't help but read this as concern trolling. The bit about tampons in kindergarten boys' restroom is set up to be an eye roller, but researching the actual implementation, it's K-12 schools that have the requirement. In my opinion, this is hand-wringing that subtly others trans people while playing down their needs. Next.

    In 2022, the Portland Freedom Fund helped a Black man named Mohamed Adan

    Oooo, a BLACK man named MOHAMED? Stabbed someone with a BIG KNIFE? Near CHILDREN? Again, this seems like cherrypicking with ugly motivations, designed to make one think, "those wacko lefties will let any murderous thug walk the streets!" But Mohamed Adan hadn't been convicted at the time and the failures of the system here weren't Freedom Fund's. Next.

    One of my school friends in my hometown, Yamhill, Ore., Stacy, struggled with alcoholism and mental illness. She became homeless and lived in a tent in a park, but it is almost impossible in such cases to move someone involuntarily into an institution. So she froze to death one winter night.

    Wow, what a sad story.

    I think of Stacy suffering and dying unnecessarily, and I believe that instead of protecting her, our liberalism failed her.

    Uh, what? Gestures at entirety of politics around healthcare You think the problem is we went too far left?

    I can't take this seriously.

    136 votes
    1. [5]
      koopa
      Link Parent
      That’s a really weird way to defend the murder of a black woman who he had already strangled leading to this arrest and she had already told police that he was going to kill her. “Don’t pay bail...

      Oooo, a BLACK man named MOHAMED? Stabbed someone with a BIG KNIFE? Near CHILDREN? Again, this seems like cherrypicking with ugly motivations, designed to make one think, "those wacko lefties will let any murderous thug walk the streets!" But Mohamed Adan hadn't been convicted at the time and the failures of the system here weren't Freedom Fund's.

      That’s a really weird way to defend the murder of a black woman who he had already strangled leading to this arrest and she had already told police that he was going to kill her. “Don’t pay bail for attempted murderers to go finish the job” really doesn’t seem like much to ask.

      This immediate defensive reaction that many on the left has towards criticism is just going to end with the general public turning away from us because we take the side of defending defenseless things. No one is going to vote for you if you defend letting a murderer run free in this dismissive tone. It’s okay to say bad things are bad and not do this over the top dance that turns off anyone not already committed to your cause.

      49 votes
      1. [4]
        redwall_hp
        Link Parent
        That's on the judge for assigning bail. If that was a risk, no bail should have been set; it's well within the discretion of the justice to make that call. If he paid his own bail, would you be...

        That's on the judge for assigning bail. If that was a risk, no bail should have been set; it's well within the discretion of the justice to make that call.

        If he paid his own bail, would you be blaming wealth and capitalism for allowing a murder to happen? Or do edge cases only matter when it's an egalitarian policy involved?

        The practice of bail is regressive and pay-to-play. It shouldn't even exist in the first place.

        45 votes
        1. [3]
          koopa
          Link Parent
          The point I’m making is about the just awful attitude and politically self destructive rhetoric on display here and not about bail policy. If you actually care about bail reform you should be...

          The point I’m making is about the just awful attitude and politically self destructive rhetoric on display here and not about bail policy.

          If you actually care about bail reform you should be hyper aware that this stuff will destroy your movement and any political support it might have.

          18 votes
          1. [2]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Any time there is bail reform, there will be someone that is let out without bail who goes on to do something horrible. Because that's statistics. That's not a reason not to do bail reform....
            • Exemplary

            Any time there is bail reform, there will be someone that is let out without bail who goes on to do something horrible. Because that's statistics. That's not a reason not to do bail reform.

            Similarly, there's no reason, given that the man discussed was granted bail, that bail shouldn't have been provided by a community organization. It isn't the community org.'s job to determine guilt or safety, it was the judge's job. He shouldn't have been granted bail at all That also isn't clearly the fault of "bail reformers" to me but I don't know enough about the specific case or Oregon law.

            I can speak to Illinois' law which absolutely still allows judges to hold someone who is clearly a risk to a person or the community and would have prevented his release, just not charged him bail for it. But that will never completely prevent someone who is let out without bail from doing something harmful.

            All of that is entirely separate from the fact that the article's use of him is almost certainly still fear-mongering with a racial tinge - Willie Horton style. And the derision around that use of it is earned. If someone talking with derision for that is enough to dissuade someone from supporting bail reform, I'd argue they'd fold the instant someone let out without bail on a low level charge commits a serious offense. It's either a principled stance or not.

            43 votes
            1. vord
              Link Parent
              White poor people and black poor people use benefits and drugs more or less the same way. But you sure as shit wouldn't think that based on media reporting.

              White poor people and black poor people use benefits and drugs more or less the same way.

              But you sure as shit wouldn't think that based on media reporting.

              11 votes
    2. [19]
      unkz
      Link Parent
      Let's actually look at Mohamed though and the events that led up to his bail being paid by the Portland Freedom Fund. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/crime/1648409/a-murder-in-portland/ So...

      Let's actually look at Mohamed though and the events that led up to his bail being paid by the Portland Freedom Fund.

      https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/crime/1648409/a-murder-in-portland/

      The beatings escalated after Rachael and Mo split. He would break in after midnight, the girls sleeping through his punching Rachael, choking her, telling her she was going to die. One night, he put a gun to her head. She was still shaking when the Portland, Oregon, police got there and told her she could request a no-contact order. “When I told him I was leaving him, he told me that he would kill me,” she wrote on the request, which stipulated Mo stay at least 150 feet away from her and the children.

      So at this point he has a no contact order.

      Mo ignored the no-contact order, showing up at dinnertime on June 23. His and Rachael’s 4-year-old let him in. He was very high, whether on cocaine or meth Rachael did not know. He broke her phone and blocked her way as she tried to escape. He spent hours hitting her that night, choking her five times and saying, as he knelt on her windpipe, “I am going to put you to sleep now.” Mo went upstairs to the children’s room. He'd left his phone on the floor. Rachael grabbed it and made for the front door. She was not wearing her abaya when the police arrived. It was 6 a.m., and Rachael had a new black eye as she told officers she believed she was going to die.

      At this point, he has violated a no contact order and committed an assault. In my opinion, he shouldn't be on the street anymore -- he's a clear danger to Rachael. If he were in jail, I would be already offended if the Portland Freedom Fund bailed him out. However, he gets an ankle monitor instead.

      Rachael’s former boyfriend was charged with five counts of felony strangulation and strapped with a GPS ankle monitor. At 1:12 a.m. on July 27, Mo was tracked to Rachael’s, where he tore off his GPS. Contacted by the monitoring service, Mo claimed someone had broken into his apartment and cut off the GPS while he slept. A bench warrant was issued for his arrest.

      Now he's stalking Rachael in violation of the no contact order, and violating his release conditions. This is worse than the point before, and it's obvious that he's going to at least assault and possibly murder Rachael at this point. It should also be obvious to any rational person that this guy needs to be in prison.

      At 2 a.m. on Aug. 11, Mo again broke into Rachael's. A foot taller and 100 pounds heavier, he body-slammed Rachael, sat on her chest, covered her mouth. She could barely breathe but was able to scream, waking the children as Mo swung a length of prayer beads and whipped her face. Then he locked her outside. It was after 3 a.m. when police arrived and arrested Mo again. He was charged with contempt of court for violating the no-contact order.

      Let's recap -- we are now on his fourth documented episode, beyond the long history of domestic abuse preceding the first police contact. So that's strangulation, assault, no contact violation, and another assault. No person in their right mind should be considering letting this person back on the street before their trial, since he's clearly incorrigible and dedicated to abusing this woman.

      As you say,

      But Mohamed Adan hadn't been convicted at the time and the failures of the system here weren't Freedom Fund's.

      The fact that Adan hadn't been convicted is a red herring. He was a clear risk, and obviously not deterred by the full range of non-custodial interventions (being arrested multiple times, no-contact order, GPS tracking).

      The Freedom Fund absolutely failed here, but I'll agree that there were failures in the system that allowed the Freedom Fund to take this disastrous action. Those failures were lenient bail policies put in place at the behest of liberal Oregonians in the wake of the BLM protests. The judge should never have allowed bail in the first place.

      35 votes
      1. [2]
        Tigress
        Link Parent
        I think you are missing the point that the article is cherry picking one instance to represent the whole thing as being bad. This reminds me of my stepmom who had just heard of a horrible case of...

        I think you are missing the point that the article is cherry picking one instance to represent the whole thing as being bad.

        This reminds me of my stepmom who had just heard of a horrible case of an illegal immigrant who killed some one in a gruesome way. She heard it from right wing news (The only type she listens to) and it just furthered her impression that they are sending the "bad ones to us" and that we shouldn't let immigrants (from Mexico and South America) in. It was a cherry picked story from right wing media to further their point against all immigrants. It was true, it was awful, but it wasn't the rule about all immigrants but it was used because it was so awful (compared to other stories) to show why people should fear immigrants and want Trump and ilk to come in and protect them from these awful immigrants.

        Nothing is perfect and problems will come through. But what we should be worried about is if this is an edge case or if this is what usually happens. The article is using what could be an edge case (They aren't showing statitistics, just one awful case) to further it's claim that this is the usual.

        21 votes
        1. unkz
          Link Parent
          I don't really think so. I can't speak to Oregon so much as a non-resident, but in Vancouver we have a serious problem with absurdly violent people being released pre-trial. And this is in Canada...

          I think you are missing the point

          I don't really think so. I can't speak to Oregon so much as a non-resident, but in Vancouver we have a serious problem with absurdly violent people being released pre-trial. And this is in Canada where bail is quite different -- generally people are released on their own recognizance, so we don't even need well-meaning but poorly operated organizations paying people's bail. This all stems from a broad policy position that we need to reduce incarceration, but it's being implemented in an unreasonable manner.

          6 votes
      2. [2]
        papasquat
        Link Parent
        Yeah, except if you're placing the blame on the freedom fund, you're saying that him murdering his girlfriend would be totally fine as long as he was wealthy. Either you can go free after being...

        Yeah, except if you're placing the blame on the freedom fund, you're saying that him murdering his girlfriend would be totally fine as long as he was wealthy.

        Either you can go free after being arrested or you can't. It's not the responsibility of the person or organization paying bail to determine that. Its the responsibility of the judge, and the blame lies squarely with the judge.

        16 votes
        1. unkz
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          That's an absurd and frankly offensive accusation, so I'm not going to respond further.

          you're saying that him murdering his girlfriend would be totally fine as long as he was wealthy.

          That's an absurd and frankly offensive accusation, so I'm not going to respond further.

          9 votes
      3. [14]
        Cycloneblaze
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        None of this - none of it - obviates the fact that thousands of people, both yet to be proven guilty and clearly innocent from the beginning, are jailed for days, weeks and months because they...

        None of this - none of it - obviates the fact that thousands of people, both yet to be proven guilty and clearly innocent from the beginning, are jailed for days, weeks and months because they can't afford bail, something that will inevitably derail their entire lives before anything resembling a fair judgement. To let this woman's murder be used as an excuse for strict cash bail is no justice.

        28 votes
        1. [11]
          vord
          Link Parent
          Exactly. An org whose primary mission is to provide bail isn't the justice system, they're just an org trying to eliminate systemic problems with the justice system. Is it common for Freedom Fund...

          Exactly. An org whose primary mission is to provide bail isn't the justice system, they're just an org trying to eliminate systemic problems with the justice system.

          Is it common for Freedom Fund to review each case in detail and only give bail to people they have a hunch are innocent? I'm very doubtful, because the whole point of bail is to remain free until your guilt has been proven.

          A bail of $0 and a bail of $500,000 are exactly identical to a billionaire. But to an average person, one of them means indefinite imprisonment.

          15 votes
          1. [10]
            unkz
            Link Parent
            I’m doubtful too, but I take the opposite view — they should be looking at these cases and applying some critical analysis. What are the risks of letting these people out on the street? If the...

            Is it common for Freedom Fund to review each case in detail and only give bail to people they have a hunch are innocent? I'm very doubtful, because the whole point of bail is to remain free until your guilt has been proven.

            I’m doubtful too, but I take the opposite view — they should be looking at these cases and applying some critical analysis. What are the risks of letting these people out on the street? If the risk is they might shoplift or pass bad cheques or do drugs or urinate in public, then sure, maybe that’s a risk that society can tolerate.

            If the charging document says they strangled their partner and have already violated their release conditions to assault their partner multiple times, then maybe ideology can take a back seat to public safety.

            I should point out that Freedom Fund wasn’t unaware of this. They knew this and chose to ignore it.

            The release papers she signed included charges of “contempt violation” and “strangulation,” but who knew if these were accurate? Bail had been set at $20,000, with only 10% security required. Maybe whatever Adan had done wasn’t that bad.

            8 votes
            1. [7]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              That is the judge's job to decide. If someone is unsafe to be in the community, that shouldn't depend on how well off they are, which is why there's a push for bail reform. A community agency...

              That is the judge's job to decide. If someone is unsafe to be in the community, that shouldn't depend on how well off they are, which is why there's a push for bail reform. A community agency making their own decisions about whose bail to cover could just as easily fall into the same set of biases. And if they were not already making those judgement calls in general, they certainly weren't qualified to make a community threat/risk assessment with no training. (Did I just spend 2 days in threat assessment training, yes. Am I qualified to decide if someone is safe to be released? Nope.) In fact only making that call in this case would be evidence of bias.

              16 votes
              1. [6]
                unkz
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                I don't disagree, which is why I don't really think they should be doing this in the first place. We should be reforming bail to keep violent people in jail until trial. I don't think a good...

                And if they were not already making those judgement calls in general, they certainly weren't qualified to make a community threat/risk assessment with no training.

                I don't disagree, which is why I don't really think they should be doing this in the first place. We should be reforming bail to keep violent people in jail until trial. I don't think a good stopgap is having well-meaning organizations facilitating the release of violent offenders in the interim.

                However, if they are going to engage in this practise, they have to do more due diligence.

                3 votes
                1. [5]
                  DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  If there's a cash bail amount set, it should be fine to pay it at or the person is only in jail because he's poor. I don't understand why it wouldn't be acceptable to do so, since that is...

                  If there's a cash bail amount set, it should be fine to pay it at or the person is only in jail because he's poor. I don't understand why it wouldn't be acceptable to do so, since that is literally how the system is set up. Refusing to implies that you know what level of threat/risk someone else is. And there's a reason why our justice system with all its bias will add resisting charges onto everyone, aren't those potentially violent?

                  And I don't even agree that all "violent offenders" should be held without bail. People who are at significant risk of harm to the community or a person should be held. A simple battery, probably not.

                  13 votes
                  1. [4]
                    unkz
                    Link Parent
                    This is black and white thinking that doesn't take into account the fact that bail is being granted inappropriately. In a perfect world, bail being granted would signify that they are only a...

                    This is black and white thinking that doesn't take into account the fact that bail is being granted inappropriately. In a perfect world, bail being granted would signify that they are only a flight risk and not a danger to society. We do not live in a perfect world.

                    6 votes
                    1. [3]
                      DefinitelyNotAFae
                      Link Parent
                      I'd argue "all violent offenders should be held without bail" is much more black and white thinking. My stance is that agencies that provide bail assistance should not be expected to do full risk...

                      This is black and white thinking that doesn't take into account the fact that bail is being granted inappropriately. In a perfect world, bail being granted would signify that they are only a flight risk and not a danger to society. We do not live in a perfect world.

                      I'd argue "all violent offenders should be held without bail" is much more black and white thinking. My stance is that agencies that provide bail assistance should not be expected to do full risk assessments on every person that asks for help. And they certainly shouldn't start doing it without a standardized assessment in place or they'll immediately start replicating the exact same biases of the system itself. Even if they had one they don't have the same information as the court does.

                      It's just shifting the blame off the police, the prosecutors and the judges involved in his case and off him for his actions. It would never be a fair assessment of blame.

                      11 votes
                      1. [2]
                        unkz
                        Link Parent
                        Which is why ideally bail assistance organizations shouldn’t really be a thing. Even in a perfect world when bail is only granted to people who are not a danger to society, bail assistance...

                        Which is why ideally bail assistance organizations shouldn’t really be a thing.

                        Even in a perfect world when bail is only granted to people who are not a danger to society, bail assistance subverts the purpose of bail which is reducing flight risk.

                        But given that we aren’t in a perfect world and there are both people who shouldn’t have to pay bail and should be simply freed on their own recognizance, and there are people who shouldn’t be allowed on the street but are improperly given the option to post bail, if organizations want to work in that space then they need to exercise judgement and not rely on a theoretical framework that doesn’t actually exist at this point in time. If they can’t do that, then they shouldn’t be posting bail for anyone.

                        3 votes
                        1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                          Link Parent
                          I agree they shouldn't need to be a thing, but if there's cash bail I think they should be a thing. Cash bail is (one of) the problem(s), so the perfect world is not "only give cash bail to those...

                          I agree they shouldn't need to be a thing, but if there's cash bail I think they should be a thing.

                          Cash bail is (one of) the problem(s), so the perfect world is not "only give cash bail to those who deserve it" it's "eliminate cash bail". The system is supposed to handle the "who's at risk" part, but it ends up just punishing poor people.

                          9 votes
            2. [2]
              papasquat
              Link Parent
              Are you requiring the same critical analysis of the people who normally provide bail? Family members and friends? Probably not, since those people are physically incapable of being objective about...

              they should be looking at these cases and applying some critical analysis. What are the risks of letting these people out on the street

              Are you requiring the same critical analysis of the people who normally provide bail? Family members and friends? Probably not, since those people are physically incapable of being objective about the case.

              Why then is it ok for a family member or friend to pay bail, but not when a non-profit does it?

              Why do the rich get extra leeway here?

              8 votes
              1. Eji1700
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                They don't. The argument is the system isn't perfect, and their behavior should reflect that because they're going to be getting exrtra scrutiny, and they're going to enable even more people to...

                They don't. The argument is the system isn't perfect, and their behavior should reflect that because they're going to be getting exrtra scrutiny, and they're going to enable even more people to get on the street who maybe shouldn't.

                I'm all for bail reform, hell i'm all for this exact fund, I still see this as a major failing and if they don't reassess their methods after this (or if it's happened before and they haven't) then that's unacceptable.

                Edit-

                Honestly this whole "well it's not their job" argument is the exact same logic that corporations use all the time to absolve themselves of blame. And just like this case, they're often technically correct in that the source of the blame lies elsewhere, but that doesn't totally absolve them from at least trying to adapt.

                5 votes
        2. updawg
          Link Parent
          But no one is using in that way here or in the article? This comment is just grandstanding.

          But no one is using in that way here or in the article? This comment is just grandstanding.

          7 votes
        3. unkz
          Link Parent
          I don’t think anyone is arguing for strict cash bail though. I think the two things here are: bail is being granted when it shouldn’t be (that’s on the judge) outside parties are paying bail in...

          I don’t think anyone is arguing for strict cash bail though. I think the two things here are:

          • bail is being granted when it shouldn’t be (that’s on the judge)
          • outside parties are paying bail in those cases (Freedom Fund and Amanda Trujillo in particular)

          Either one of those parties could have prevented this by exercising better judgement, but they didn’t.

          5 votes
    3. [25]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      I think a lot of this is symbolic (part of what people are getting at when they say “performative”) but that doesn’t mean it’s trivial or so easily dismissed. Symbolism can be important. For...

      I think a lot of this is symbolic (part of what people are getting at when they say “performative”) but that doesn’t mean it’s trivial or so easily dismissed. Symbolism can be important.

      For example, I see tampons in an elementary school as mostly symbolic. It could occasionally be useful, but adults can bring their own. Some think it’s good symbolism and others think it’s bad symbolism, and this all depends on what you think it symbolizes, which can be pretty ambiguous.

      A nice thing about symbolic gestures is that we can be flexible about replacing them with different symbolic gestures, since they don’t have to actually work except symbolically. One reason to change symbolic gestures: if you have to explain them often because they’re frequently misunderstood, they aren’t doing a great job of communicating. It might be easier to change a symbol than to change a lot of people’s minds about what it means.

      Making laws about symbolic gestures can be unfortunate when it’s being rigid about something where local flexibility might be better. It’s a kind of meta-symbolism, since passing the law is itself symbolic.

      20 votes
      1. [6]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        This sentence assumes that it's the adults who are using them (and also that adults can afford them or never run out, teachers aides don't get paid well, but that's beside the point). Most schools...
        • Exemplary

        For example, I see tampons in an elementary school as mostly symbolic. It could occasionally be useful, but adults can bring their own

        This sentence assumes that it's the adults who are using them (and also that adults can afford them or never run out, teachers aides don't get paid well, but that's beside the point).
        Most schools have students who are going through puberty. Since elementary schools go from K-5th grade generally speaking and bathrooms are rarely only used by one grade level, there is a thought process behind mandating them in all bathrooms. Anxious 4th grader who doesn't want her classmates to see her because she feels ashamed of her period might well use the bathrooms closer to the Kindergarten classrooms. So might that trans boy who has a precocious puberty and whose periods make him feel suicidal.

        Or sometimes it's the closest bathroom and you just felt a blood clot gush past and you need to go.

        It's not symbolic. It's like providing toilet paper and hand soap.

        60 votes
        1. spit-evil-olive-tips
          Link Parent
          to expand on this - imagine you're a legislator in a state that's considering a law like this one in Oregon. you're broadly supportive of it, but then you read this Kristof op-ed and think he...

          there is a thought process behind mandating them in all bathrooms

          to expand on this - imagine you're a legislator in a state that's considering a law like this one in Oregon. you're broadly supportive of it, but then you read this Kristof op-ed and think he makes a valid point about them not being necessary in bathrooms for kindergartners.

          how would you actually amend the law to satisfy that criticism?

          first, the law would need to somehow define the "proper" age of menstruation. after that age, schools must provide menstrual products to students, but before that age they should not.

          but as discussed elsewhere in this thread, the age of menarche is both a) earlier than a lot of people realize, and b) decreasing over time for not-entirely-understood reasons.

          which means...you'd want to write into the law a provision that it should be revisited every few years, in case the "official age of menarche" that schools use needs to change?

          but anyways, you come up with this official age. below N years, you decide menstruation is rare enough that you're fine with not providing tampons and pads to students; above N years, it's common enough that schools need to provide those products.

          so you make an amendment to the law to say that instead of all school restrooms, it's only required in restrooms used by students N years and older.

          but as you said, bathrooms in schools aren't segregated by grade level. which means you also need to add to the law some sort of formula for determining the average age of students who use a given restroom.

          that formula would need to take into account the floor plan of the school - where the restroom is located, what classrooms are nearby, what age range of students use that classroom, and so on.

          it would need to be detailed enough to account for all the edge cases and idiosyncrasies of every single school building in the state, as well as every single school building the state may build or operate in the future.

          but, it also needs to be simple enough that the vice principal could figure it out with a tape measure and a notepad, rather than requiring the architectural drawings of the school cross-referenced against the current classroom grade assignments.

          there's a classroom used for 1st graders, and a restroom in the hallway just outside it. OK, that restroom is fine, it doesn't need tampons and pads, according to this updated law.

          but then, halfway through the school year, a pipe bursts and floods the room where the high school band practices, which forces them to relocate to that 1st grade classroom temporarily. but, only for band practice, which is after-school...does that cross a threshold that means the school is required to start putting period products in that restroom? hmm...I'll get my slide rule, you conference call the superintendent and the school district's lawyer...

          it is so. much. simpler. to just make it a blanket rule, that applies to all restrooms.

          and of course, even if you did all of this...you'd still have op-eds criticizing the law. because it turns out that all along, people didn't actually give a shit about the age of students involved. what that actually objected to was the period products being in boys' restrooms, because they didn't like being reminded about the existence of trans men.

          31 votes
        2. [3]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          This is earlier puberty than I had been imagining. Thank you.

          This is earlier puberty than I had been imagining. Thank you.

          10 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            In the US 10% of women report their first period (or menarche) by age ten. And 8 is on the early edge, but can happen. Those are also ages where gender segregation is consistently increasing and...

            In the US 10% of women report their first period (or menarche) by age ten. And 8 is on the early edge, but can happen. Those are also ages where gender segregation is consistently increasing and where periods and puberty are subjects of harassment and ridicule. And framed as a secret thing you have to hide.

            The average age is 11.9 if you look at kids born between 2000 and 2005. Which is dropping. (Theories abound about why, they're not relevant here so gonna leave them aside.)

            40 votes
          2. RoyalHenOil
            Link Parent
            Girls are getting their first periods at earlier and earlier ages for reasons that are not entirely understood (possibly due to a mixture of things, such as increases in obesity and increases in...

            Girls are getting their first periods at earlier and earlier ages for reasons that are not entirely understood (possibly due to a mixture of things, such as increases in obesity and increases in exposure to estrogenic endocrine disruptors found in many plastics).

            17 votes
        3. Promonk
          Link Parent
          This seems as good a place as any to mention that Oregon elementary schools are mostly K-6. There are definitely menstruating students in pretty much every Oregon elementary school. The rule seems...

          This seems as good a place as any to mention that Oregon elementary schools are mostly K-6. There are definitely menstruating students in pretty much every Oregon elementary school. The rule seems pretty sound to me.

          19 votes
      2. [18]
        RheingoldRiver
        Link Parent
        I'm not an expert in education or education regulation, but I would assume that K-12 is a category that's easier to legislate/regulate around than "uhh ok lets say approximately 4th grade but...

        I see tampons in an elementary school as mostly symbolic.

        I'm not an expert in education or education regulation, but I would assume that K-12 is a category that's easier to legislate/regulate around than "uhh ok lets say approximately 4th grade but we'll investigate if 3rd grade is more appropriate (see appendix C where someone makes an argument for 2nd grade in the case that a student is held back a year and has a September birthday), through 12th grade"

        15 votes
        1. [17]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          Maybe that’s an argument for letting it be decided locally? Laws can be simple and crude or detailed and complicated, and then if you get it wrong, you have to pass another law.

          Maybe that’s an argument for letting it be decided locally? Laws can be simple and crude or detailed and complicated, and then if you get it wrong, you have to pass another law.

          2 votes
          1. [15]
            RheingoldRiver
            Link Parent
            Absolutely not, this is a protection for the kids who need it, and leaving it up to districts is forcing the families of the kids who need it to fight for themselves. And if the kid has no family...

            Absolutely not, this is a protection for the kids who need it, and leaving it up to districts is forcing the families of the kids who need it to fight for themselves. And if the kid has no family support, nothing happens.

            This is like saying "oh we can just leave abortion regulation to the states what could possibly go wrong" except that more people agree that abortion protection is important than who agree that protection of kids' gender identities is important

            29 votes
            1. [3]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              Absolutely. It's also why Project 2025 proposes dismantling the DoE.

              Absolutely. It's also why Project 2025 proposes dismantling the DoE.

              23 votes
              1. [2]
                updawg
                Link Parent
                I just want to point out that the DoE is the Department of Energy and the Department of Education is officially abbreviated as "ED."

                I just want to point out that the DoE is the Department of Energy and the Department of Education is officially abbreviated as "ED."

                14 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  Appreciate it but also they'd probably be fine with abolishing that too. Despite being in education the student affairs side of things doesn't deal directly with the Dept of Ed so I was unaware

                  Appreciate it but also they'd probably be fine with abolishing that too.

                  Despite being in education the student affairs side of things doesn't deal directly with the Dept of Ed so I was unaware

                  10 votes
            2. [11]
              skybrian
              Link Parent
              This is a digression, but I’m struck by the automatic distrust in local government. There are good reasons for skepticism, but also, when local governments cannot be trusted to make reasonable...

              This is a digression, but I’m struck by the automatic distrust in local government. There are good reasons for skepticism, but also, when local governments cannot be trusted to make reasonable decisions about things like this, it seems like things have come to pretty bad state for democracy?

              Handing down laws from above might be expedient, but it only goes so far. It increases distrust and reduces local empowerment. Why participate when important decisions aren’t being made at that level? Since local government is where people can more meaningfully participate in democracy, it seems like it could use some shoring up?

              Since having diverse perspectives represented is still important, I’m wondering about alternatives. I don’t know how practical it is, but maybe it would be better to get people from other places into local governments with some kind of rotation scheme? People can learn from each other. People from the city can learn from people in the country, and vice-versa.

              This is probably a utopian dream, but it would be nice if state laws didn’t have to specify everything down to what’s available in bathrooms, because local governments could be trusted to do something reasonable.

              (For another example, I suppose the same is true of California laws to promote building more housing. They seem like good laws because local governments have been obstructive, but having to force it on them doesn’t seem great.)

              8 votes
              1. [3]
                DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                Many of us have seen local school boards both nearby and across the country, taken over by a conservative movement in the past several years. They've been restricting sex education, access to...

                Many of us have seen local school boards both nearby and across the country, taken over by a conservative movement in the past several years. They've been restricting sex education, access to books, history education, as well as bathroom access particularly for queer and trans youth but also along racial lines covering topics of enslavement and civil rights.

                Frankly I do not wish to empower those folks further. Thankfully the pendulum appears to swing back, but there are good reasons to have state and federal guidance and regulations IMO.

                21 votes
                1. [2]
                  skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  It's certainly very easy to think of examples of bad local government, which is why I said there are good reasons for skepticism. But I don't think they're all bad, and I still hope they can be...

                  It's certainly very easy to think of examples of bad local government, which is why I said there are good reasons for skepticism.

                  But I don't think they're all bad, and I still hope they can be improved. That's more of a dream, though.

                  The same could be said of state and federal goverments - lots of things go wrong at those levels too.

                  And I don't think most people have any fixed principles about this? It's more pragmatic, based on outcomes. We support the level of government that's on our side for whatever issue we're currently talking about.

                  4 votes
                  1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                    Link Parent
                    I decided not to weigh my comment down with caveats about other levels of government. But when it comes to standards in education and in regards to things like hygiene products, I think high level...

                    I decided not to weigh my comment down with caveats about other levels of government. But when it comes to standards in education and in regards to things like hygiene products, I think high level regulation is reasonable.

                    14 votes
              2. [4]
                redwall_hp
                Link Parent
                The ultimate case study happened 150 years ago. We literally had to fight a war over what local governments were getting up to. They started at human rights abuses, tried to push them at a higher...

                I’m struck by the automatic distrust in local government. There are good reasons for skepticism, but also, when local governments cannot be trusted to make reasonable decisions about things like this, it seems like things have come to pretty bad state for democracy?

                The ultimate case study happened 150 years ago. We literally had to fight a war over what local governments were getting up to. They started at human rights abuses, tried to push them at a higher level, and then rejected the authority of the greater democracy and committed violence against it, resulting in a bloody war and eventually the assassination of the democratically elected leader at the hands of the "local governance" types. And nothing has really changed, because that assassination lead to a weak reconstruction era.

                Democracy averages out to mediocrity at scale, but it can't exist on a small scale, as it quickly becomes captured by interests whose power eclipses that of the local government, be they plantation owners or industrialists.

                15 votes
                1. [2]
                  skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  "Democracy can't exist at small scale" is kind of a radical proposition. I'm skeptical of government, but not that skeptical. Aren't there some local governments you like?

                  "Democracy can't exist at small scale" is kind of a radical proposition. I'm skeptical of government, but not that skeptical.

                  Aren't there some local governments you like?

                  7 votes
                  1. first-must-burn
                    Link Parent
                    Most of the local governments I have experienced (largely in the rural south) have basically been captured by local wealthy folks who have enough free time to run for a job that doesn't pay well...

                    Most of the local governments I have experienced (largely in the rural south) have basically been captured by local wealthy folks who have enough free time to run for a job that doesn't pay well and the money and influence to out a campaign together. The exclusion of working class people and minorities is not automatic, but nearly so. Corruption is not universal, but nearly so.

                    Now I live in a larger (blue) city in the north, and "local" politics are larger in scale, so there is better representation racially, but the important offices are still dominated by family dynasties that go back generations.

                    I don't really see it getting better while there is so much money to be made from the influence of being in politics.

                    14 votes
                2. Minori
                  Link Parent
                  Could you help me understand what small scale means in your mind? Like is a school board for a small town of a few thousand people too small? The ideas behind representative democracies seem just...

                  Democracy averages out to mediocrity at scale, but it can't exist on a small scale, as it quickly becomes captured by interests whose power eclipses that of the local government, be they plantation owners or industrialists.

                  Could you help me understand what small scale means in your mind? Like is a school board for a small town of a few thousand people too small? The ideas behind representative democracies seem just as applicable to smaller groups in my mind, so I'd like to understand where you're drawing the line.

                  I understand the concerns around special interest groups eclipsing the power of smaller regional councils, but that's why a lot of anarchists and political theorists would call for dismantling undemocratic multinational power structures (like corporations). Corruption is a hard problem to solve though.

                  4 votes
              3. [3]
                MimicSquid
                Link Parent
                I think that local government can be valuable (because it's theoretically more directly responsive to a smaller group of individuals) but also can be destructive (because it's more prone to...

                I think that local government can be valuable (because it's theoretically more directly responsive to a smaller group of individuals) but also can be destructive (because it's more prone to regulatory or ideologue capture). If (for example) all it takes is $100k to pay for campaign expenses and 5 people willing to run for school board in order to entirely control/destroy the public school system in a county it means that local government is often going to be vulnerable to pressure from a minority of more powerful individuals and thus not actually representative of or caring for the populace of the area.

                At this point cities and often even counties are small fish as compared to the forces that would like them to act in particular ways, and those actions are rarely in the best interests of the residents. Why should they be trusted when their independence is so often abused by the wealthy or powerful?

                10 votes
                1. ButteredToast
                  Link Parent
                  To add to this, between the overall low visibility of local politicians (they don't get the spotlight nearly as much as higher offices do) and low levels of political literacy among the populace...

                  To add to this, between the overall low visibility of local politicians (they don't get the spotlight nearly as much as higher offices do) and low levels of political literacy among the populace (the education system and by extension parents on average don't do well at equipping people to be politically aware and active), participation on the local level is low which makes these offices even more vulnerable to dominance by particular demographics (such as the elderly, wealthy land owners, religious fundamentalist conservatives, etc).

                  8 votes
                2. skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  Maybe one way to think about it is that responsive government can go either way, depending on who they're responding to? Sometimes we don't want anyone to interfere too easily, so there are...

                  Maybe one way to think about it is that responsive government can go either way, depending on who they're responding to?

                  Sometimes we don't want anyone to interfere too easily, so there are entities of appointed officials like the Federal Reserve. Its independence is often thought of as a good thing.

                  And there are similar issues with the Supreme Court. An independent judicial branch is supposedly a good thing, but...

                  6 votes
          2. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Not really, that reverts things to the status quo - conservative areas restrict access and liberal ones don't. The children in those areas are left to the whims of the adults. Plus if I really...

            Not really, that reverts things to the status quo - conservative areas restrict access and liberal ones don't. The children in those areas are left to the whims of the adults. Plus if I really want to make a fuss and don't want tampons in any bathroom, all my bathrooms are now kindergarten bathrooms. Sorry, no tampons or pads for anyone.

            It'd be like letting them decide if soap needed to be put in the men's/boys bathrooms because the local district doesn't think it's needed for them to wash their hands after they pee.

            16 votes
  2. [40]
    krellor
    Link
    I love the West Coast. I love the mountains, and the coast, the Olympic rainforest, and the desserts, the outdoor sports, and the quirky people and cities and cultures. It's where I'm from, and...

    I love the West Coast. I love the mountains, and the coast, the Olympic rainforest, and the desserts, the outdoor sports, and the quirky people and cities and cultures. It's where I'm from, and feels like home.

    But the article does resonate with me. I think some places, both in liberal and conservative places, get so caught up in the politics, culture, and identity stuff that the stop focusing on the substantive issues of governance and spend all their time doing performative stuff.

    Governance is hard. Supporting business, while holding them accountable, balancing harms, raising funds, executing funded services well, etc. running a city government is just plain hard, thankless work. And I'm some places, like Portland, it seems like they went a bit off the rails on the performative or feel good, and are just starting to get back to some of the hard work.

    I wish more cities and their electorate would see value in pursuing progressive agendas through things like tax policy, zoning regulations, and economics, which are dry, and boring, and make for bad sound bites, but done well will improve equity in outcomes for a generation.

    27 votes
    1. [39]
      Gekko
      Link Parent
      Do you have an example of a performative progressive legislation? I'm trying to think of one that's just for show and not 1. Legitimately just helping people or 2. A necessary counter to some...

      Do you have an example of a performative progressive legislation? I'm trying to think of one that's just for show and not 1. Legitimately just helping people or 2. A necessary counter to some right wing culture war nonsense, like we wouldn't need protections for abortions, trans people, or voting if they're weren't under attack

      18 votes
      1. Minori
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        If you extend this to "intended to help people", I think the vast majority of laws are well-intended. Most abortion opponents sincerely believe that abortion is murder and harms someone...
        1. Legitimately just helping people

        If you extend this to "intended to help people", I think the vast majority of laws are well-intended. Most abortion opponents sincerely believe that abortion is murder and harms someone spiritually. It's not enough to simply have the right policy goals either. Plenty of laws have unintended consequences (like inclusionary zoning reducing affordable housing stock). We should also care about the mechanics of a law and measure whether they're achieving the right goals.

        As for silly performative laws, I'd consider California's Ebony Alerts and Feather Alerts to be absolute memes. Instead of improving Amber Alerts for everyone, they roll out separate systems just for Black and Native American youth. The new systems cost money to implement and haven't been shown to help at all. If anything, racists now know which alerts they can ignore!

        Edit: grammar

        23 votes
      2. [2]
        mayonuki
        Link Parent
        SF school board renaming 40 plus schools is one that gets cited a lot in the Bay Area. It was one of the factors that led to a recall of the school board as parents felt like the board was more...

        SF school board renaming 40 plus schools is one that gets cited a lot in the Bay Area. It was one of the factors that led to a recall of the school board as parents felt like the board was more interested in making statements than educating children in a time of crisis during Covid.

        16 votes
        1. koopa
          Link Parent
          Removing the teaching of algebra from all public schools because black students were falling behind is another SF classic. Solving disparities by improving the quality of teaching for unserved...

          Removing the teaching of algebra from all public schools because black students were falling behind is another SF classic.

          Solving disparities by improving the quality of teaching for unserved groups? No let’s just make all our schools worse instead.

          I’m very progressive but there’s no way you can honestly look at the way California and San Francisco in particular has been consumed by absolutely terrible policy decisions and not feel disgust at the wasted opportunity for good governance. A place with incredible wealth and resources and hasn’t done much good at all with it.

          26 votes
      3. [6]
        lupusthethird
        Link Parent
        I'm not the one you're replying to, but I can think of one: Banning of one-use bags in grocery stores. It was done in some progressive states and cities and is absolutely just performative. I...

        Do you have an example of a performative progressive legislation?

        I'm not the one you're replying to, but I can think of one: Banning of one-use bags in grocery stores. It was done in some progressive states and cities and is absolutely just performative. I understand getting rid of plastic bags for the environmental benefits, but banning or adding surcharges to paper bags is too much. Paper bags are already made from recycled paper, are also easily recyclable again and are more than good enough. It's not fair to poorer people to have to buy reusable bags which are often $1-2 each (and remember to always bring them or be subject to the surcharge or buying more again) The environmental harm from paper bags is a drop in the bucket compared to the harm caused by larger corporations, or compared to any of the other major issues we have going on right now. These bans just seem like something the progressives pushed through as a "feel-good" initiative that looks good on paper to rich young white progressives but is actually hurting the people they claim to protect and care about.

        15 votes
        1. [2]
          RoyalHenOil
          Link Parent
          I don't agree that it's just performative. It's trying to address a very real and widespread problem (the excessive production of one-use plastic), much of which ends up as litter in marine...

          I don't agree that it's just performative. It's trying to address a very real and widespread problem (the excessive production of one-use plastic), much of which ends up as litter in marine environments, and which also presents a large expense on taxpayers who must pay for waste removal, storage, and cleanup of so many plastic bags in everyone's garbage bins. If such a law has the effect of reducing plastic waste (and I am quite sure that most such laws do), or even if their supporters genuinely believe it will (and I am quite sure that most supporters do), then they are not "just performative" — even if the law is implemented imperfectly or has drawbacks in other, unrelated areas.

          But that is not to say that purely performative laws don't exist.

          I think a much better example is legislation outlawing silencers on gun. This is a safety feature intended to reduce risk of permanent hearing damage, but it has been made illegal in many jurisdictions — even in contexts where silencers should actually be required for OSHA reasons (such as gun ranges to protect the hearing of employees exposed to loud gunfire all day) — because they look scary in movies. This legislation does not address gun crime in any meaningful way, and I have not seen evidence that its supporters even think it will; it's just a cheap way for legislators to trick low-information voters into believing that they are making headway on gun crime.

          17 votes
          1. BHSPitMonkey
            Link Parent
            Your first paragraph is arguing the benefits of banning plastic bags, which the parent comment agrees with. Their complaint was with the required 10-cent charge for paper bags.

            Your first paragraph is arguing the benefits of banning plastic bags, which the parent comment agrees with. Their complaint was with the required 10-cent charge for paper bags.

            8 votes
        2. Tigress
          Link Parent
          Uh... it's not paper bags they are banning, it's plastic (no one has complained about paper bags being the problem). And it's a 5 cent charge if you want a paper or a plastic bag (thick enough to...

          Uh... it's not paper bags they are banning, it's plastic (no one has complained about paper bags being the problem). And it's a 5 cent charge if you want a paper or a plastic bag (thick enough to be re used but not as good as the 1-2 dollar bags) and honestly, I am a very forgetful person but I did things before they even banned bags to try to get myself to remember bags . You are not getting me at the it is horrible to make them remember to bring bags... the only reason it's horrible is people aren't used to doing it as culture is used to the store providing bags. Once they are it's not that big a problem cause it will be almost automatic. But no, I don't think it's a burden to make people remember to bring in bags... once it is habit it's not that hard!!!!

          The fact that you are focusing on paper bags (which no one has proposed bannign) makes me think you are being disgenius here with your comment.

          11 votes
        3. [2]
          WeAreWaves
          Link Parent
          Do you know where this is a law and not just the decision of the grocery store to charge for a paper bag?

          adding surcharges to paper bags

          Do you know where this is a law and not just the decision of the grocery store to charge for a paper bag?

          5 votes
          1. BHSPitMonkey
            Link Parent
            https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/bag-ban

            https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/bag-ban

            Instead, these stores generally must provide customers recycled paper bags or certified reusable grocery bags and must charge their customers at least 10 cents for each bag.

            5 votes
      4. [28]
        krellor
        Link Parent
        Good question, and probably worth defining first. When I think of performative legislation, I think in two terms: policies that will have limited effect because it fails to address practical...

        Good question, and probably worth defining first. When I think of performative legislation, I think in two terms: policies that will have limited effect because it fails to address practical implementation issues (feel good or virtue signaling) or substantial policy changes that result in unintended harms because an ideology was pressured to an impractical extent.

        This is inherently subjective, so reasonable folks will disagree. To me, the article gives one example in the form of tampon dispensers in boys bathrooms in elementary schools. It's not that it's a bad thing. It's that I doubt it is really having much impact, and in a world of limited budgets and legislative session time, couldn't something more substantial have been done to advance inclusivity of trans individuals? I would think so, but who knows.

        Another example could be a blue state enacting a law to solve a problem it doesn't have, in response to actions in red states. E.g., Maryland enacting a law protecting librarians based in reaction to laws passed in Florida. Is it bad? No. But was it the best use of legislative time if Maryland isn't having the problem? I don't think so.

        And the Republicans do it too, so it's a problem I see on multiple fronts.

        In terms of harmful feel good policy changes, I think that they specific way Portland handled decriminalizing drugs was well intentioned and poorly thought out, and was an example of an ideology taking policy to impractical places. Which is unfortunate, because I think there are practical ways to decriminalize drugs. But Portland took the easy feel good route instead of the difficult, slow policy work route and people suffered for it.

        I dunno if that helps. I'll add other examples of I think of any, but need to run at the moment.

        14 votes
        1. [24]
          RheingoldRiver
          Link Parent
          No, this is a terrible example. Kids going through puberty have a hard enough time, now imagine that you're trans or nonbinary and getting your period, you're freaking out, the idea of staining...

          To me, the article gives one example in the form of tampon dispensers in boys bathrooms in elementary schools.

          No, this is a terrible example. Kids going through puberty have a hard enough time, now imagine that you're trans or nonbinary and getting your period, you're freaking out, the idea of staining your underwear freaks you out, the idea of going into the girls' bathroom freaks you out, the idea of talking to your teacher about it freaks you out, and you end up scared to go to school because you're so traumatized by this experience.

          Why can't we do things that make people's lives nicer???

          27 votes
          1. [23]
            krellor
            Link Parent
            I think that is a very emotionally charged response to my very neutral comment, and fails to respond to the substance of what I said, which is that it isn't a bad thing, but in practical terms,...

            I think that is a very emotionally charged response to my very neutral comment, and fails to respond to the substance of what I said, which is that it isn't a bad thing, but in practical terms, how much good is accomplished?

            The average age of menarche is 11-14 and most fifth graders turn 11 in their final year of elementary. So a minority percentage begin menarche in k-5 and an even smaller intersection of those who do are trans and have changed bathroom choices (not sure how to word that).

            So in practical terms, in a data informed sense, how many trans youth are we helping per dollar, and does a more effective way exist?

            I can't even find statistics on the rate of trans youth under 13, so frankly, funding data collection might be one way those Dollars could be better spent, to even quantify the specific problems that need solving.

            18 votes
            1. [2]
              DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              It's 11.9 for the younger generations on average. 10% beginning by age 10. It's not even trans youth specific, sometimes certain bathrooms are more private, quieter, or even a friend helps out....

              It's 11.9 for the younger generations on average. 10% beginning by age 10.

              It's not even trans youth specific, sometimes certain bathrooms are more private, quieter, or even a friend helps out. It's just ensuring blanket access to hygiene products the way TP and hand soap are provided.

              17 votes
              1. krellor
                Link Parent
                To be clear, I agree that it is a good thing. I think it is one of those things that just becomes the norm over time, like baby changing stations in men's bathrooms. But I do wonder in the absence...

                To be clear, I agree that it is a good thing. I think it is one of those things that just becomes the norm over time, like baby changing stations in men's bathrooms. But I do wonder in the absence of data if it should be prioritized over other investments in trans youth. E.g., accelerating the rollout vs. opportunistically adding them in new construction or remodels.

                And the thanks for the data! So let's say 25% begin menarche by fifth grade.

                11 votes
            2. [20]
              RheingoldRiver
              Link Parent
              I would be more inclined to agree if tampon machines were $100k installations that need $10k of maintenance every year. But like, you can get a tampon and pad dispenser on amazon for $139. I would...

              I would be more inclined to agree if tampon machines were $100k installations that need $10k of maintenance every year. But like, you can get a tampon and pad dispenser on amazon for $139. I would assume that this is probably 4x (or more) the cost that school districts or the state making bulk purchases need to pay. The shelf life of a tampon is 3-5 years based on a quick google search, and for pads it's probably more, so if truly zero people are using these then you spend maybe $10-20 to restock every three years.

              Sure, there's a bit of maintenance in case it gets vandalized or something, but I am not thinking thats a big problem in elementary school bathrooms.

              The costs here are just so incredibly small that I can't find any sympathy for someone saying "well is this actually helping anyone" because if outfitting the entire state with pads & tampons in every K-12 bathroom gives 1 child a comfortable puberty instead of a traumatic one, that's probably worth it.

              16 votes
              1. [19]
                krellor
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                I'll go back to my initial statement, which is these are subjective assessments and reasonable people can disagree. As a point of contrast, cities are only required to retrofit crosswalks with the...

                I'll go back to my initial statement, which is these are subjective assessments and reasonable people can disagree.

                As a point of contrast, cities are only required to retrofit crosswalks with the latest blind assistance tools if there is a blind person who requests it and has attended specific training on their use. That is an example of public policy trading costs vs benefits.

                Is it better to address the costs up front everywhere, or do it case by case when a student identifies as trans?

                When we are talking about <3% of 25% of 50% of the youth population under 12, I think it is valid to debate the ways to roll out roles and programs to maximize short and long term benefits.

                In a perfect world, this would all be moot and neither trans or blind people or anyone else would need to go out of the way to access services, hygiene products, etc, they need in public spaces.

                Edit: I don't have a definitive source, but it looks like a cost of $5.6 million statewide, with Portland having spent > $200,000 so far.

                11 votes
                1. [6]
                  sparksbet
                  Link Parent
                  This reads like "anything that could possibly help trans kids is something we should criticize even when it's been pointed out to be generally cheap and beneficial" in the context of the rest of...

                  When we are talking about <3% of 25% of 50% of the youth population under 12, I think it is valid to debate the ways to roll out roles and programs to maximize short and long term benefits.

                  This reads like "anything that could possibly help trans kids is something we should criticize even when it's been pointed out to be generally cheap and beneficial" in the context of the rest of this conversation.

                  7 votes
                  1. [5]
                    krellor
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    How so? When you are trying to help a small population by installing something, it seems reasonable to weigh the pros and cons of accelerating installations everywhere, or requiring them in...

                    How so? When you are trying to help a small population by installing something, it seems reasonable to weigh the pros and cons of accelerating installations everywhere, or requiring them in remodels and new construction with a mechanism to install them ad hoc based upon current need.

                    It sounds like you think I'm arguing that because trans people are a small part of the population we shouldn't invest scarce resources. But that isn't what I'm saying. In fact, we should carve out budgets to address equity issues in general. What I'm saying is, is there anything in a given fiscal period that could have helped trans people more, If we spread out the costs of installation to be opportunistic.

                    Edit: I'll also suggest that some of the funds could pilot statistics tracking and a needs survey for tabs youth under the age of 13 to help quantify future investments.

                    Keep in mind, this is the same state during the same year where there were teacher strikes with a $220 million gap in funding, and Portland school district was paying twice the administrative costs as comparable districts. So clearly they were budgeting constrained. I still think carving out funds for equity issues is important. But I don't believe anyone actually sat down and thought about it in a holistic way.

                    E.g., require all schools to include them in remodels and new construction, set aside $1 million for ad hoc installation when there is demonstrated need, take $500k or so and fund a pilot statistics tracking and need survey program for trans youth to identify the top areas of struggle through a cooperative agreement with a university in the area. Actually make an investment in future improvements.

                    8 votes
                    1. [4]
                      sparksbet
                      Link Parent
                      Your initial complaint was that this was purely performative (and that's also even more brazenly the complaint in the article). When it was pointed out by others in these comments that, no, this...

                      Your initial complaint was that this was purely performative (and that's also even more brazenly the complaint in the article). When it was pointed out by others in these comments that, no, this policy is something that would concretely help trans boys at these schools, thereby making it not merely performative, the argument then becomes "it's a waste of money, they should have spent that money running surveys figuring out how we can actually help trans kids instead". Heck, you don't even know for sure that they didn't consult some survey or statistics here. There's plenty of stats on period poverty, and it's not hard to find trans people talking about how important period inclusivity is. You're just assuming that the state government didn't consider the issue holistically because you disagree with what they chose to do.

                      Having period products available in school bathrooms is something that we already know concretely benefits kids -- that's why advocates campaign to have them available for free for students in schools. Is this always a waste of money, despite the fact that period poverty has well-documented negative effects on students? Or is it only a waste of money when it concerns trans kids, because we don't care when those negative effects disproportionately affect them?

                      Most other steps to improve trans students' lives at school are not things that you install or spend money on directly, but rather grander scale issues of school culture and support from teachers and administration. These are not the types of things you can just throw money at and solve. By contrast, providing period products in both girl's and boy's bathrooms is comparatively cheap andow effort compared to the positive effects it can have on affected students. If someone thinks providing period products for trans boys is "performative", I don't trust them to support the state putting time and effort into pretty much any other trans issue, because very few of them are as straightforward as this one.

                      7 votes
                      1. [3]
                        krellor
                        Link Parent
                        I don't think this reply fits the facts of the thread. I defined performative legislation two ways, one of them being legislation that seeks out some good, but doesn't achieve it as effectively as...

                        I don't think this reply fits the facts of the thread.

                        I defined performative legislation two ways, one of them being legislation that seeks out some good, but doesn't achieve it as effectively as it could. I was then asked for what I thought could be examples, and gave them with the caveat that this is a subjective assessment. From there the conversation meandered in multiple threads, and evolved as conversations do.

                        I never set this out as an issue paper or comprehensive assessment, not did I make any arguments against dispensers being in all bathrooms. What I highlighted is that it is much cheaper to let the natural renewal cycle of facilities address it through changes in requirements over time then it is to accelerate it for a small population. And because folks kept talking about it, I gave some ideas for ways you could achieve the same outcome (hygiene products available for trans youth) while also advancing other improvements for the same money today.

                        And I still maintain that the Oregon legislators are doing the easy work instead of the hard work, and they are failing to achieve more substantive outcomes. Maybe this is an example, maybe it's not. I think reasonable people can get to different ideal strategies.

                        What I will say is if I had $5 million of onetime funds with the task of best supporting trans youth into the future for the state of Oregon, I would have spent the funds differently. And that is the crux of the issue and why I feel some of this is more for performance for the electorate than a deep desire to advance public health.

                        And this is an area I do have some expertise as I oversee a portfolio of public health initiatives, and we never have enough dollars to do all the good we would like.

                        8 votes
                        1. [2]
                          sparksbet
                          Link Parent
                          Well, I'm a trans person who has a period, and I thus think that your subjective assessment of the utility of this measure is based on a failure to really consider the perspective of those it...

                          What I will say is if I had $5 million of onetime funds with the task of best supporting trans youth into the future for the state of Oregon, I would have spent the funds differently. And that is the crux of the issue and why I feel some of this is more for performance for the electorate than a deep desire to advance public health.

                          And this is an area I do have some expertise as I oversee a portfolio of public health initiatives, and we never have enough dollars to do all the good we would like.

                          Well, I'm a trans person who has a period, and I thus think that your subjective assessment of the utility of this measure is based on a failure to really consider the perspective of those it actually affects. But in any case, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the bulk of this.

                          9 votes
                          1. krellor
                            Link Parent
                            I think it's perfectly ok to agree to disagree, though I don't think the gap is nearly so large as you might think. We both support dispensers in all bathrooms k-12. After that it is the method...

                            I think it's perfectly ok to agree to disagree, though I don't think the gap is nearly so large as you might think. We both support dispensers in all bathrooms k-12. After that it is the method and timing of implementation that differs.

                            My experience is coming from managing fixed budgets to maximize benefit, so it seems natural that my perspective will reflect that.

                            Regardless, have a great day!

                            6 votes
                2. [4]
                  Macha
                  Link Parent
                  Are we talking about crossings that have older generations of blind assistance technology, or crossings that have none? If we're talking about upgrading assistance technology to newer models, sure...

                  As a point of contrast, cities are only required to retrofit crosswalks with the latest blind assistance tools if there is a blind person who requests it and has attended specific training on their use.

                  Are we talking about crossings that have older generations of blind assistance technology, or crossings that have none?

                  If we're talking about upgrading assistance technology to newer models, sure that makes sense. But the equivalence here would not be only stocking tampons if requested, it would be e.g. upgrading to a higher capacity dispenser on request, maybe because some bathroom has higher than expected demand.

                  If we're talking about providing blind assistance at all, well I don't agree with the analogy or the avoidance of blind technology. Here, the standards are enforced for new or renovated crossings across the board, with the result that lights without assistance were phased out in the 90s and tactile paving is present at like 80% of signalled crossings. To do otherwise is to tell blind people that it's ok to keep inaccessible areas where other blind people have not previously gone and complained about those areas.

                  4 votes
                  1. [3]
                    krellor
                    Link Parent
                    I don't know that I follow, but I'll elaborate. Up until the 90's there just wasn't blind assistance technology at crosswalks, pretty much anywhere. The laws as I understand them is that new...

                    I don't know that I follow, but I'll elaborate. Up until the 90's there just wasn't blind assistance technology at crosswalks, pretty much anywhere. The laws as I understand them is that new installations started to require them, but a city didn't have to accelerate rollout and install them early unless specific crosswalks were requested by a blind person who had received training.

                    Fast forward 30 years and the natural replacement cycle has largely introduced various versions of the technology to a majority of crosswalks. Cities saved money by only being required to accelerate crosswalks where there was current demand.

                    Whether it is good or not, well, in a perfect world we would accelerate rollouts for all life enhancing or enabling technologies. But budgets are constrained, so we don't and we try and find ways to help people who need it today while incorporating improvements into new standards where they are cheaper to implement as new builds vs ad hoc installation.

                    6 votes
                    1. [2]
                      RheingoldRiver
                      Link Parent
                      That sounds more like an equivalent here would be, "we expect all bathrooms for all genders of all students in K-12 classrooms by 2027. If a student anonymously requests their school have this...

                      That sounds more like an equivalent here would be, "we expect all bathrooms for all genders of all students in K-12 classrooms by 2027. If a student anonymously requests their school have this happen sooner, then that school has to be outfitted within 2 weeks of the request (and the state will assist)"

                      Which also sounds pretty reasonable to me

                      5 votes
                      1. krellor
                        Link Parent
                        Pretty much. I think the goal would be to allow the schools to bundle the installation with other work to be done in a reasonable time frame to control costs. When I managed space for a state...

                        Pretty much. I think the goal would be to allow the schools to bundle the installation with other work to be done in a reasonable time frame to control costs.

                        When I managed space for a state agency, we would keep a list of work to be done, and when it became worthwhile to introduce the overhead of bidding it out we would send it out as a package and save a fair bit. One trip to the site, one set of permits of needed, etc. But you also want to be responsive to short term needs, so having a mechanism to fast track here or there seems reasonable, just like with low vision assist cross walks.

                        2 votes
                3. [8]
                  GenuinelyCrooked
                  Link Parent
                  Oregon's Dept. of Ed. website says they've got around 1200 public k-12 schools, so that's over $5000 per school, which seems quite high to even taking into account that it will cost more for...

                  Oregon's Dept. of Ed. website says they've got around 1200 public k-12 schools, so that's over $5000 per school, which seems quite high to even taking into account that it will cost more for middle and high schools. I could see a large highschool spending $10,000 per year pretty easily, but the bulk of those costs would be from replenishing used stock, which would need to happen somewhat less in a middle school, and far less in an elementary school, and that should reduce the average substantially. I could definitely see an argument that this isn't being done efficiently, that they're spending far more than is necessary to accomplish the goal, but that's a very different thing from arguing that the goal is better off being skipped over entirely.

                  4 votes
                  1. [7]
                    krellor
                    Link Parent
                    I believe the costs are just installation. I would expect sustainment to be handled by the regular operating budget. barring misuse, though it is a school, I don't think having more dispensers...

                    I believe the costs are just installation. I would expect sustainment to be handled by the regular operating budget. barring misuse, though it is a school, I don't think having more dispensers will increase resupply costs much.

                    I think what folks often don't know about these sorts of things is how quickly costs increase. You can't just price out the cost of a unit on Amazon and go, by grabthars hammer what a savings.

                    I've been on the programming and design team for multiple publicly funded buildings and overseen space and operations for a public agency. The cost to install a dispenser in new construction is practically nothing, just the cost of the units which are small relative to other construction costs.

                    As soon as you talk about retro fitting, even something simple, costs go up. Most of that work is likely done on a local prevailing wages contract. Someone has to come in, review the locations, if necessary test for things like asbestos, request R sheets or detect in wall utilities, order units, install, etc. $5,000 to have someone come through a school and install a few units actually isn't all that bad.

                    There aren't really good ways to avoid those costs, other than being selective on where you roll them out and requiring remodels and new construction to include them, when it is dirt cheap comparatively.

                    It's unfortunate, but even the largest budgets leave some needs unmet. I've overseen large private and public budgets, in the hundreds of millions, so I'm particularly sensitive to trying to maximize the good you can do with every dollar. Everyone always thinks there is more invalidated money somewhere, but every dollar spent one place is taken from some other good.

                    3 votes
                    1. [6]
                      GenuinelyCrooked
                      Link Parent
                      Why would they need to test for asbestos or detect in-wall utilities? The only reason to use a dispenser rather than just a box on a shelf is to deter people from taking huge handfuls. If that's...

                      Why would they need to test for asbestos or detect in-wall utilities? The only reason to use a dispenser rather than just a box on a shelf is to deter people from taking huge handfuls. If that's what's making it expensive, then just put a box on the shelf and have done with it.

                      Again, arguments about the most effective implementation seem reasonable to me, while arguments that we shouldn't do it at all do not.

                      1 vote
                      1. [5]
                        krellor
                        (edited )
                        Link Parent
                        Well, I'm viewing this from the perspective of, we want to spend ~$5 million in onetime funds to help trans youth, how can we best maximize the value. And in this thread I've thrown out...

                        Well, I'm viewing this from the perspective of, we want to spend ~$5 million in onetime funds to help trans youth, how can we best maximize the value. And in this thread I've thrown out suggestions that ultimately get dispensers in every bathroom, and funds things like corporative agreements to layout out future work.

                        So I'm not arguing if it should be done at all, I'm looking at maximizing impact.

                        With respect to just putting a box out, I suspect that is a nonstarter. The box will wander away, there is the potential for tampering, etc. In assuming you would use dispensers for all the reasons they use dispensers now.

                        Maybe in a sufficiently small school it wouldn't matter. But if nothing else, dispensers rate limit the misuse of them.

                        Edit: and they need to do those things if the dispenser is bolted to the wall like the other dispensers I've seen. You can't drill into a wall without knowing what's there.

                        3 votes
                        1. [4]
                          updawg
                          Link Parent
                          Also, the process for putting up a shelf is the same as putting up a dispenser: drill holes, mount.

                          Also, the process for putting up a shelf is the same as putting up a dispenser: drill holes, mount.

                          1. [3]
                            krellor
                            Link Parent
                            When I managed space for a state agency, if I needed anything mounted to the walls in multiple locations and received a quote for $5k I would consider that a good deal. For reference, some ad hoc...

                            When I managed space for a state agency, if I needed anything mounted to the walls in multiple locations and received a quote for $5k I would consider that a good deal.

                            For reference, some ad hoc costs I've paid for space alterations in public buildings: $4,500 for a single Ethernet cable pull, $2,200 to mount a whiteboard, $7,000 to paint a modest office area. Things get expensive.

                            7 votes
                            1. [2]
                              updawg
                              Link Parent
                              You didn't have a facility manager who could do that stuff for you?

                              You didn't have a facility manager who could do that stuff for you?

                              1. krellor
                                Link Parent
                                We had a whole union facility operations division. But we also had 50 offices across the state. The union shop had first right of refusal on jobs, after which we could send jobs out through a job...

                                We had a whole union facility operations division. But we also had 50 offices across the state. The union shop had first right of refusal on jobs, after which we could send jobs out through a job order contract, ride on an existing state contract, or send out an RFP for bids.

                                The general idea was to avoid one off jobs by building packages of work to bid out and save on the overhead of site visits.

                                With regards to schools, some school districts will have an in-house ability and others will rely on contracts. For those using contracts, the ability to defer until it can be matched with other work would save money. But even for those with in-house ability, setting a short timetable might force them to contract out just to hit a deadline due to availability of resources.

                                I was shocked to find that in my new county, each individual school is responsible for their own snow removal. It's shocking what schools have to do to get by, so I'm all for giving them space to operate, within reason.

                                4 votes
        2. [3]
          spit-evil-olive-tips
          Link Parent
          I hadn't heard of the law in Maryland you're referencing. so I typed "Maryland libraries" into Google News. and literally the very first result was a news article that says the problem they're...

          Another example could be a blue state enacting a law to solve a problem it doesn't have, in response to actions in red states. E.g., Maryland enacting a law protecting librarians based in reaction to laws passed in Florida. Is it bad? No. But was it the best use of legislative time if Maryland isn't having the problem? I don't think so.

          I hadn't heard of the law in Maryland you're referencing. so I typed "Maryland libraries" into Google News. and literally the very first result was a news article that says the problem they're trying to address is indeed happening in Maryland:

          In Maryland, there have been several instances of parents and community members requesting the removal of certain books from library shelves and catalogs. In Aug. 2023, Carroll County Public Schools (CCPS) parents and the parental rights group, Moms for Liberty, challenged 58 books in CCPS catalogs, resulting in their temporary removal from shelves until a decision was reached. Additionally, the Carroll County Board of Education voted unanimously to prohibit sexually explicit content in instructional and supplemental materials, including library books. As of Feb. 20, CCPS has pulled 25 of the 58 challenged books from shelves, including “It Ends With Us” by Colleen Hoover and “A Court of Mist and Fury” by Sarah J. Maas.

          Also in Aug. 2023, Maryland Judge Deborah Boardman denied an injunction in a parent lawsuit against MCPS regarding a policy preventing students from opting out of LGBTQ+ themed books. Families claimed the policy violates parents’ due process rights under Maryland law’s 14th Amendment and their First Amendment right to freedom of religion.

          16 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Once again, this is why there's deep skepticism about local government.

            Once again, this is why there's deep skepticism about local government.

            10 votes
          2. krellor
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            The article was published after the bill was signed into law and focuses narrowly on the application to school libraries. The bill was revised many times as it went through committee. I believe...

            The article was published after the bill was signed into law and focuses narrowly on the application to school libraries. The bill was revised many times as it went through committee. I believe one thing that changed was around how the law shielded librarians from harm for following the rules. The passed version includes language preventing them from being fired for keeping books on shelves, which is something that could conceivably occur with a backwards local school board. But some of the proposed language initially included shielding from laws that don't exist in the state. I.e., shielding them from something that can't happen. That fits my definition of performative fairly well. It's also rather interesting to me that the bill exempts school media programs. Most Maryland schools have integrated "media programs" rather than libraries, so the bill is failing to protect what is likely a future source of complaints.

            I would also say that while the frequency of book complaints has gone up, the dramatic statistics cited in the article are national statistics, and in Maryland most of the complaints were resolved with the board simply reviewing and authoring the books to go back in circulation.

            That said, perhaps it is best to cut off an avenue for wasting school board time.

            Edit: I also believe the bill changed in regards to enforcement, from outright prohibitions to authorizing the comptroller to withhold state funds. I think it ended on the latter, but could be wrong. So to me the bigger question is the extent to which the bill will even help vs a more strongly written bill.

            2 votes
      5. papasquat
        Link Parent
        https://apnews.com/article/san-francisco-supervisors-gaza-ceasefire-vote-eec997f13f88de2e80d4a5ac45d259f9 This one hits close to home because my city is spending endless time on public comments...

        https://apnews.com/article/san-francisco-supervisors-gaza-ceasefire-vote-eec997f13f88de2e80d4a5ac45d259f9

        This one hits close to home because my city is spending endless time on public comments and debate on the same issue.

        San Francisco is not involved in foreign policy. It has nothing to do with Gaza or Israel, and has no say whatsoever in what happens in that war.

        Yet tens of thousands of hours of local government legislation time are wasted on this instead of things that could directly help the people that live there. It's eye rolling, even for someone who think Israel is going about this in a very heavy handed way and would love to see a ceasefire.

        Petition your federal legislature if this is something you care about, not your city councilman who can do literally nothing about it.

        10 votes
  3. [6]
    Raistlin
    Link
    This is something I keep coming back to because it's something that (to me) illustrated the utter performance of some left-leaning organisations, and it was the obsession (now finally fading) with...

    This is something I keep coming back to because it's something that (to me) illustrated the utter performance of some left-leaning organisations, and it was the obsession (now finally fading) with the word Latinx. A word that doesn't work in Spanish because articles are gendered as well and unpronounceable, and doesn't work in English because English already has gender neutral nouns (Latin American, Hispanic, Latin, etc). It's a word you only think to use if your only audience is English speaking people of Latin American descent in universities (aka the elite).

    But fuck me, it took like a decade of every news organisation hearing over and over that we bloody hated it (because it's language colonialism) before they took the message. Meanwhile, Trump takes a larger proportion of the Latin vote every time he runs, particularly men.

    I'm not saying you can't be performative. Performances are important to keep coalitions together, and let people know that they're heard. I'm saying that picking every single hill to die on is only a good strategy if you actually want to die on a hill.

    23 votes
    1. [4]
      ajwish
      Link Parent
      I see this come up all the time in this context, and it kind of baffles me (if there are some key facts that I am ignorant of, please do let me know). Most discussion I can find of the origins of...

      I see this come up all the time in this context, and it kind of baffles me (if there are some key facts that I am ignorant of, please do let me know). Most discussion I can find of the origins of Latinx suggest it was first used in Puerto Rican publications:

      Scharron-del Rio first noticed the use of the letter X to escape the gender binaries encoded in the Spanish language about two years ago in a number of Puerto Rican psychology periodicals. Authors would, for example, write “lxs participantes” to avoid the masculine “los” in the phrase “the participants.” 1

      Would it not be the height of linguistic colonialism for English speakers to decide they shouldn't use a word that a group of Spanish speakers are using? And it is a word that many Spanish speaker do use (though of course this does not take from your point that there are many detractors):

      Sometimes negative reactions to new terms like Latinx are based on the assumption that ivory tower scholars, or a small group of activists disconnected from the rest of society, make those words up. In my own experience, I first heard Latinx being used by queer, non-binary students as a way to linguistically perform and promote gender inclusivity. ... So, I would respond to those criticisms by expressing that the use of the term Latinx is an opportunity to approach history with an open mind. Latinx histories have been marginalized, ignored and suppressed. The term reflects the desire to broaden awareness about historically newer or lesser examined communities. In this sense, the “x,” in Latinx, is also about the unknown past and complex present of the diverse Latinx community. 2

      There also seem to be some concerns regarding the use of terms like "Hispanic," which prioritizes linguistic and cultural traditions derived from Spain (... a colonial power) over any other culture or history in the area:

      "That immediately erases all of the centuries of pre-Columbian history, culture and civilizations that existed before the European conquest and colonization of the Americas ... and that's understandably upsetting to people who are not white." It alienates indigenous and Afro-Latino communities whose history includes deep resistance to the Spanish invasion and is not necessarily tied to Spain, Ortiz says. 3

      Lastly, I am curious about the statement that "English speaking people of Latin American descent in universities" are "the elite." Some research from the Pew Institute seems to suggest that in 2021 ~30% of latin americans were enrolled at least part time in college, while 23% of them had earned at least a Bachelor's degree4 (there is definitely a larger conversation to be had about relative rates of enrollment and graduation for asian vs white vs all other students, but that is probably beyond the scope of this discussion). Calling 20-30% of the population "the elite" seems a bit strange to me, but I might be misunderstanding this statement.

      I don't speak Spanish nor am I of Latin American/Hispanic/Latin/Latinx/Latin@ (etc, etc) descent, so I am absolutely not the right person to have an opinion on the best term to use. But I do think that the term "Latinx" in particular is met with perhaps unwarranted scorn and oversimplified as an issue, and I think it's worth considering its origins and use a little more carefully when considering it in the context of performative liberalism and linguistic imperialism.

      14 votes
      1. EgoEimi
        Link Parent
        It’s worth noting that the root of Latino and Latinx are Latin; it originated to describe people who speak Romance languages. The same argument against using Hispanic is equally applicable to...

        There also seem to be some concerns regarding the use of terms like "Hispanic," which prioritizes linguistic and cultural traditions derived from Spain (... a colonial power) over any other culture or history in the area:

        It’s worth noting that the root of Latino and Latinx are Latin; it originated to describe people who speak Romance languages. The same argument against using Hispanic is equally applicable to Latino, Latinx, etc.

        Regardless, Spain and Portugal already obliterated indigenous American cultures and peoples.

        11 votes
      2. [2]
        Minori
        Link Parent
        I'm just going to stick to a bullet point format. Previous discussions on Latinx here. Elites are often defined as the upper crust that gets more media attention. I think we can agree American...

        I'm just going to stick to a bullet point format. Previous discussions on Latinx here.

        • Elites are often defined as the upper crust that gets more media attention. I think we can agree American college graduates are very very different from first generation farm laborers.
        • Only 2-3% of Hispanic people use Latinx which is practically zero in a survey.
        • It's literally impossible to pronounce Latinx or "lxs" in Spanish. The word has to be pronounced like English to sound natural.
        • Spanish speakers that care about gender neutrality have already switched to -e instead of -o/-a. Latine would be inline with this change, but again it makes way more sense to just use the words that Hispanic people prefer.
        • All the etymology I can find says the word first showed up in the US and US territories.
        • I went looking into the actual background of the authors who first wrote about Latinx in 2013. Unsurprisingly, they're both highly educated elites that graduated from American universities. Fiol-Matta from Yale and NYU and Gómez-Barris from UC San Diego and Berkeley.

        Also, majorities of Hispanic people dislike the term Latinx and explicitly say it should not be used. There's nothing more imperialist than Americans imposing a label on an ethnic group that hate it or have never heard of it. Just call people what they want to be called. You're better off using Hispanic and Latino 98% of the time.

        9 votes
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          I'll just add that it doesn't matter if it started in puerto rico if the push and usage comes mostly from the US. Just because it may have roots in the latin/hispanic community, doesn't discount...

          I'll just add that it doesn't matter if it started in puerto rico if the push and usage comes mostly from the US. Just because it may have roots in the latin/hispanic community, doesn't discount the fact that the majority of adoption and push for it has been the white, left, US community.

          7 votes
    2. lejos
      Link Parent
      So much of what you've said here is simply inaccurate. I lived in Mexico in the early 2010s, and happened to make a few queer friends (who I have never spoken English with at all). I've see them...

      So much of what you've said here is simply inaccurate.

      I lived in Mexico in the early 2010s, and happened to make a few queer friends (who I have never spoken English with at all). I've see them use both -@ and later -x on social media and and as far as I can tell, neither was ever pronounceable, and that was never the point (though the -e suffix is becoming more common with the benefit that it's more pronounceable). When you expect to see an -o/a and you see an -@ or -x instead, it visually communicates exactly what it's doing as far as including both/removing gender respectively.

      If you speak Spanish, you should know it's not simply a grammatical gender issue. I can say "soy una persona masculina" and the fact that persona and its accompanying article/adjective are all feminine grammatically have nothing to do with my gender. But you quickly run into the necessity of identifying yourself as one gender or the other to say even the most mundane of things, like "I'm bored".

      On the English side of things, I'm also just going to guess that any time a woman identifies herself as Latina, you don't respond with "Well ackshually English doesn't have grammatical gender so Latina is incorrect"; and if you do, please don't, for your own sake. Point being, Latino/a/x are all just words borrowed from Spanish anyway.

      For what it's worth, I think it's a drawback of "Latinx" in English that it can be pronounced, because it doesn't confer the meaning that it has in Spanish.

      Grammar and pronunciation arguments about it are really just red herrings that fall apart unless you just really don't think queer or non-binary people should exist in any language.

      It's a word you only think to use if your only audience is English speaking people of Latin American descent in universities (aka the elite).

      A lot of the backlash against "Latinx" is really no different than any other right-wing anti-queer / anti-"woke" talking points, and calling college-educated Latinos, the majority of whom are the first generation to attend college, "the elite" really makes no sense other than to understand it as simply being conflated with other right-wing talking points.

      Sorry, but "the elites" are the people that benefit from you being angry about "Latinx", not the queer or non-binary college kids that use it to describe themselves.

      But fuck me, it took like a decade of every news organisation hearing over and over that we bloody hated it (because it's language colonialism) before they took the message.

      This sentence really struck me as hilarious, given how British it sounds, if "we" is understood to be people in the United States, and that's before considering the next layer of irony that Spanish itself is a colonial language.

      On that note, literally the first time I ever saw -x removing gender from words in Spanish it was on Zapatista political artwork in Chiapas, which is an indigenous movement of people for whom Spanish is their second or maybe third or fourth language if they speak it at all. In their case, it's a response to colonialism.

      Meanwhile, Trump takes a larger proportion of the Latin vote every time he runs, particularly men.

      The right wing fuels itself on resentment and hate of queer people, particularly among men, be it trans people using the bathroom or playing sports, or trans kids taking puberty blockers, or queer Latinos using "Latinx" to describe themselves. It's not unique when it comes to Latino men, or any more justified.

      I'm not saying you can't be performative. Performances are important to keep coalitions together, and let people know that they're heard. I'm saying that picking every single hill to die on is only a good strategy if you actually want to die on a hill.

      I'd argue that even if you're cynical enough to think that anyone using Latinx is simply performative, and not simply, going out of their way to signal that they genuinely want to be inclusive of LGBTQ people, it's worse to be so anti-Latinx that you just propagate right-wing memes and disinformation.

      11 votes
  4. [30]
    zazowoo
    Link
    Direct link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/15/opinion/progressives-california-portland.html

    Direct link: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/15/opinion/progressives-california-portland.html

    Conservatives argue that the problem is simply the left. Michael Shellenberger wrote a tough book denouncing what he called “San Fransicko” with the subtitle “Why Progressives Ruin Cities.” Yet that doesn’t ring true to me.

    Democratic states enjoy a life expectancy two years longer than Republican states. Per capita G.D.P. in Democratic states is 29 percent higher than in G.O.P. states, and child poverty is lower. Education is generally better in blue states, with more kids graduating from high school and college. The gulf in well-being between blue states and red states is growing wider, not narrower.

    Politics always is part theater, but out West too often we settle for being performative rather than substantive.

    For example, as a gesture to support trans kids, Oregon took money from the tight education budget to put tampons in boys’ restrooms in elementary schools — including boys’ restrooms in kindergartens.

    “The inability of progressives, particularly in the Portland metro area, to deal with the nitty-gritty of governing and to get something done is just staggering,” Representative Earl Blumenauer, a Democrat who has been representing and championing Portland for more than half a century, told me. “People are much more interested in ideology than in actual results.”

    In 2022, the Portland Freedom Fund helped a Black man named Mohamed Adan who had been arrested after allegedly strangling his former girlfriend, holding a gun to her head and then — in violation of a restraining order — cutting off his G.P.S. monitor and entering her building. “He told me that he would kill me,” the former girlfriend, Rachael Abraham, warned.

    The Freedom Fund paid Adan’s bail, and he walked out of jail. A week later, Adan allegedly removed his G.P.S. monitor again and entered Abraham’s home. The police found Abraham’s body drenched in blood with a large knife nearby; three children were also in the house.

    Perhaps on the West Coast we have ideological purity because there isn’t much political competition. Republicans are irrelevant in much of the Far West, so they can’t hold Democrats’ feet to the fire — leading Democrats in turn to wander unchecked farther to the left. That’s not so true in the Northeast: A Republican, Charlie Baker, was until recently governor of Massachusetts, and Republicans are competitive statewide in Maine, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York and New Jersey.

    Maybe a healthy Republican Party keeps the Democratic Party healthy, and vice versa.

    12 votes
    1. [13]
      RheingoldRiver
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Is this supposed to be a bad thing? This seems like a fantastic idea, it normalizes the idea of periods for all kids starting from kindergarten and inspires confidence in any trans / GNC /...

      For example, as a gesture to support trans kids, Oregon took money from the tight education budget to put tampons in boys’ restrooms in elementary schools — including boys’ restrooms in kindergartens.

      Is this supposed to be a bad thing? This seems like a fantastic idea, it normalizes the idea of periods for all kids starting from kindergarten and inspires confidence in any trans / GNC / questioning kids that they can live their lives securely no matter what path they choose

      Also, don't teachers use these bathrooms too? Seems like a general workplace safety sort of thing. And when I was in elementary school we had like "buddy reading" time where 5th graders would read to kindergartners in the kindergarten classroom, so it's not like a bathroom for kindergartners won't be used by older kids sometimes too.

      Also, tampons are SO CHEAP and I can't imagine the little metal containers to hold them are much more expensive, this was probably not an expensive thing to do

      22 votes
      1. [10]
        krellor
        Link Parent
        I don't think the point is that it is a bad thing, but that it might not have been the most good that could be accomplished for the money. Without seeing the alternate needs I can't say, but even...

        I don't think the point is that it is a bad thing, but that it might not have been the most good that could be accomplished for the money. Without seeing the alternate needs I can't say, but even small amounts of money can mean new books, computers, or classroom resources.

        11 votes
        1. [9]
          vord
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Like putting condoms in kindergarden toilets. Not bad, just stupid wasteful. That said, with early onset pubery happening as early as 8, having some pads accessible in later elementary bathrooms...

          Like putting condoms in kindergarden toilets. Not bad, just stupid wasteful.

          That said, with early onset pubery happening as early as 8, having some pads accessible in later elementary bathrooms is not a bad idea.

          9 votes
          1. [8]
            BHSPitMonkey
            Link Parent
            I don't think most elementary schools typically have separate bathrooms reserved just for the later grades. The ten year olds and the five year olds go to the same place.

            I don't think most elementary schools typically have separate bathrooms reserved just for the later grades. The ten year olds and the five year olds go to the same place.

            7 votes
            1. [6]
              vord
              Link Parent
              Both my childhood school from the 80s in rural PA, and my kids school in NJ have in-classroom bathrooms for the kindergarden kids. There's a much higher rate of accidents and smaller bladders,...

              Both my childhood school from the 80s in rural PA, and my kids school in NJ have in-classroom bathrooms for the kindergarden kids. There's a much higher rate of accidents and smaller bladders, which makes it a practical decision.

              Schools are also often divided by wings, where say K-2 is on one half and 3-5 on the other.

              I will say there's a bit of moral panic/outrage to the whole thing, it is an easy enough problem to solve:

              No questions asked access to these things at the school nurse.

              5 votes
              1. [5]
                DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                That's just adding another barrier to access, now you have to tell a nurse your menstrual status including outing yourself if you're trans and socially transitioned. Adults barely like to mention...

                That's just adding another barrier to access, now you have to tell a nurse your menstrual status including outing yourself if you're trans and socially transitioned. Adults barely like to mention their periods to other people but have mostly gotten over the barrier, it's women's restroom code that if you have a spare tampon or pad you share it with even your worst enemy if they need it. And we did that in school.

                But when you hit early or even precocious menarche you're potentially freaking out. And walking to the nurse instead of the bathroom could mean the difference between stained pants and going about your day. The barrier of telling an adult is so much worse.

                Also it medicalizes periods. Would you propose putting toilet paper or soap at the nurse? If not, why menstrual products?

                12 votes
                1. [4]
                  vord
                  Link Parent
                  Or, you just have a giant pile of things kids need sitting on a table. Honestly, I don't really care about exact implementation, and both is probably the correct answer. I do seem some advantages...

                  Or, you just have a giant pile of things kids need sitting on a table. Honestly, I don't really care about exact implementation, and both is probably the correct answer. I do seem some advantages to the nursing station as well:

                  A (hopefully) trusted adult is available to ask questions if needed... some kids don't have parents whom would provide support in this context. If you're freaking out, and your parents never talked to you about this, are you going to be able to figure out a tampon or pad on your own? Or are you gonna go to a nurse freaking out thinking your dying? Or are you going to have blood all over you and going to the nurse anyway to hide until someone can get you and bring you a change of clothes? Nurses should be bound by doctor-patient confidentiality, though I don't know if they are. If they were, they could definitely be a confidant in a system that doesn't really have many.

                  4 votes
                  1. [3]
                    DefinitelyNotAFae
                    Link Parent
                    But you can still go to the nurse if you need help and if that's a safe option for you regardless of where the tampons and pads are. There's no logic in putting sanitary products behind barriers...

                    But you can still go to the nurse if you need help and if that's a safe option for you regardless of where the tampons and pads are.

                    There's no logic in putting sanitary products behind barriers just because they're used by "only" half the population. And going to the nurse will just get even more stigma added to it by the "ew periods" school crowd.

                    School nurses can be safe or they can be incredibly harmful. It's not a guarantee and many students will just avoid them.

                    5 votes
                    1. [2]
                      vord
                      Link Parent
                      Yes, yes, there's also razorblades in the candy, Dungeons and Dragons is turning our children into Devil worshippers, and every stranger is a dangerous person to not be trusted. Moral panics for...

                      School nurses can be safe or they can be incredibly harmful.

                      Yes, yes, there's also razorblades in the candy, Dungeons and Dragons is turning our children into Devil worshippers, and every stranger is a dangerous person to not be trusted. Moral panics for everybody!

                      If the people in a position of trust can't be trusted, that's a problem that should be resolved. Not teaching kids to not trust strangers, which has been the status quo.

                      To be clear, from my last comment, the correct answer is probably both, for most of the reasons you state.

                      4 votes
                      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                        Link Parent
                        The line you quoted was part of the entire argument about not putting menstrual products behind barriers so cherry picking it out and mocking it as a moral panic is poor form. It's also not a...

                        The line you quoted was part of the entire argument about not putting menstrual products behind barriers so cherry picking it out and mocking it as a moral panic is poor form. It's also not a moral panic. I'd agree the issue should be solved but no one's come close to ensuring all adults in schools are supportive and safe people yet. And even when the adults are safe and supportive, the kids still don't always feel safe accessing them.

                        I really don't care if nurses also have menstrual products, that's perfectly fine.But the issue isn't where else products should be offered, just that they should be accessible without barriers of cost or gatekeeping.

                        My comment was in response to you saying the solution should be having (or adding) that additional barrier. Dismissing it now through mockery isn't just moving goalposts it's yanking them out of the ground and telling me they were never there in the first place. Please do me the courtesy of not cherry picking and then mocking my comment which for the record was written with genuine concern for the safety of trans kids in particular.

                        7 votes
            2. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              At best there's bathrooms closer to the younger kids' classrooms with lower toilets and sinks but they're still not exclusive unless it's a separate building.

              At best there's bathrooms closer to the younger kids' classrooms with lower toilets and sinks but they're still not exclusive unless it's a separate building.

              2 votes
      2. [2]
        DrStone
        Link Parent
        From what my teacher friends tell me, staff do not use the student bathrooms. Beyond size differences in lower grades (e.g. little kids have appropriately short sinks and tiny toilets/urinals),...

        From what my teacher friends tell me, staff do not use the student bathrooms. Beyond size differences in lower grades (e.g. little kids have appropriately short sinks and tiny toilets/urinals), there is a liability issue around adults potentially exposing themselves to children even unintentionally that schools absolutely don’t want to risk. They can enter a student bathroom, with the door open, when there’s an issue, but they must do their own business in the staff bathroom(s).

        10 votes
    2. [4]
      Eji1700
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Don't have the time to go through all of this, but saw this while scanning it. This is a topic much discussed, and the other side of this coin is that cost of living in blue states, and especially...

      Democratic states enjoy a life expectancy two years longer than Republican states. Per capita G.D.P. in Democratic states is 29 percent higher than in G.O.P. states, and child poverty is lower. Education is generally better in blue states, with more kids graduating from high school and college. The gulf in well-being between blue states and red states is growing wider, not narrower.

      Don't have the time to go through all of this, but saw this while scanning it.

      This is a topic much discussed, and the other side of this coin is that cost of living in blue states, and especially blue districts (which of course happen to be urban areas) is also MUCH higher.

      So yeah it turns out, families that make more money, tend to do better in almost all these areas (living longer, graduating, succeeding, etc). And low and behold, living in these areas requires that you already make more money. There's very much a natural filter of the unsuccessful (be it their fault or not) to lower cost of living areas and states.

      It would probably mean a lot more if these stats bothered to control for that, and say looked at what the range of income for viable living is in the state, and the metrics across those. Because yeah, turns out more people who live in San Francisco can afford better healthcare than say, Barstow

      19 votes
      1. vord
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Part of it is that red states have their low cost of livings subsidized by the blue states. Red states have far higher percentages of their state budget coming from federal funds. Blue states...

        Part of it is that red states have their low cost of livings subsidized by the blue states.

        Red states have far higher percentages of their state budget coming from federal funds.

        Blue states generate much more tax revenue for the federal government.

        Pennsylvania is a striking example of this, as a state with a huge urban/rural cultural divide. Philadelphia is basically subsidizing the bejesus out of the rest of the state. PA has a 3% income tax. Philadelphia also has a 3% (for commuters) or 6% (city residents) tax. Frankly, they'd probably do well to flip that, as the highest earners all commute from the suburbs.

        The reason Philadelphia needs that extra tax is because the Republican legislature of PA gives Philadelphia far less back than it contributes. If it was enforced to be a more-balanced distribution between the entirety of the state per capita, the tax levels would need to almost double across the board, outside of Philadelphia.

        PA could solve a lot of these problems by implementing a proper progressive income tax between say 1% and 9%, but the odds of that happing inside of the next 20 years I put at approximately 0.

        Also having a minimum wage which is in line with a reasonable living in the highest CoL areas will inflate the wages in the low CoL areas and severely reduce the wage disparity between them.

        30 votes
      2. [2]
        pyeri
        Link Parent
        There is also this whole "lies and damn lies" thing about statistics. I'd rather average out the lived experiences or anecdotes of those living in blue and red states respectively than rely on...

        There is also this whole "lies and damn lies" thing about statistics. I'd rather average out the lived experiences or anecdotes of those living in blue and red states respectively than rely on averaged statistics on this topic.

        10 votes
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          Yeah. An interesting study (that i'm sure has been done), might be the same metrics but of those by standard deviation from the poverty line for each state, as obviously adjusted for by cost of...

          Yeah. An interesting study (that i'm sure has been done), might be the same metrics but of those by standard deviation from the poverty line for each state, as obviously adjusted for by cost of living.

          It's still hardly gospel, but at least you're trying to compare apples to apples, rather than some quick surface assessment without the appropriate caveats supplied.

          6 votes
    3. [2]
      Deimos
      Link Parent
      I changed the topic to link to the original source, the archive link was https://archive.is/xknAF

      I changed the topic to link to the original source, the archive link was https://archive.is/xknAF

      8 votes
      1. nul
        Link Parent
        I was just about to comment "the link says it goes directly to the source, but when I clicked it I got an Archive link. How'd that happen?" Now I see it was just edited lol. Thank you for the...

        I was just about to comment "the link says it goes directly to the source, but when I clicked it I got an Archive link. How'd that happen?" Now I see it was just edited lol. Thank you for the comment on doing this.

    4. [10]
      kjw
      Link Parent
      Some offtopic: Reading above comment I'd like to ask US citizens - do you really have only two parties to choose from? Democrats and Republicans? Nothing else? Or is it just mainstream media...

      Some offtopic:
      Reading above comment I'd like to ask US citizens - do you really have only two parties to choose from? Democrats and Republicans? Nothing else? Or is it just mainstream media creating this duopolist world in US politics?

      4 votes
      1. [7]
        MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        There's only two parties, and it's due to First Past the Post voting. The Wikipedia article has an explanation for why a two-party system is the stable equilibrium given FPTP voting.

        There's only two parties, and it's due to First Past the Post voting. The Wikipedia article has an explanation for why a two-party system is the stable equilibrium given FPTP voting.

        12 votes
        1. [6]
          sparksbet
          Link Parent
          While FPTP voting is responsible for two dominant parties, it's not the only reason when it comes to the US that any third parties are so non-existent. You can see this by comparing it to the UK,...

          While FPTP voting is responsible for two dominant parties, it's not the only reason when it comes to the US that any third parties are so non-existent. You can see this by comparing it to the UK, which also uses FPTP (and thus has two dominant parties) but which does have other parties with significant enough presence that coalitions in parliament to form a government are a thing.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            kjw
            Link Parent
            What may be the reasons of UK having more than two significant parties while using FPTP voting?

            What may be the reasons of UK having more than two significant parties while using FPTP voting?

            2 votes
            1. jess
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              UK isn't really FPTP for their general elections. Each constituency gets a representative elected to parliament via FPTP, but a party in parliament has to form a coalition if they don't have an...

              UK isn't really FPTP for their general elections. Each constituency gets a representative elected to parliament via FPTP, but a party in parliament has to form a coalition if they don't have an outright majority. This keeps minor parties somewhat relevant.

              For the USA the presidential elections don't have coalitions. If the parties became very fragmented then a president could theoretically be elected with a <50% vote. Third parties have zero power and thus zero relevance.

              There are other factors too, but that's the major one.

              11 votes
          2. [3]
            MimicSquid
            Link Parent
            Thanks for providing a counterexample. What leads to the difference? Is it purely cultural, something else about how coalitions are negotiated, or are there some different quirks of the rules?

            Thanks for providing a counterexample. What leads to the difference? Is it purely cultural, something else about how coalitions are negotiated, or are there some different quirks of the rules?

            1 vote
            1. unkz
              Link Parent
              The difference is presidential elections versus parliamentary elections. We don’t elect our prime minister directly.

              The difference is presidential elections versus parliamentary elections. We don’t elect our prime minister directly.

              5 votes
            2. sparksbet
              Link Parent
              In general, there just aren't coalitions in US congress, presumably since presidential elections are separate from electing representatives in congress. In a parliamentary system the government...

              In general, there just aren't coalitions in US congress, presumably since presidential elections are separate from electing representatives in congress. In a parliamentary system the government comes from whatever party is in power in parliament, and smaller parties will help dominant parties form a coalition in order to have their say in some of that government's policies, in return for their votes when passing legislation. But since the appointees in and policies of the executive branch are largely independent of the legislative branch in the US, this kind of deal doesn't work out.

              3 votes
      2. GenuinelyCrooked
        Link Parent
        Technically other parties exist, but due to the First Past The Post system that MimicSquid mentioned, it is almost always mathematically impossible for them to win anything but small local...

        Technically other parties exist, but due to the First Past The Post system that MimicSquid mentioned, it is almost always mathematically impossible for them to win anything but small local elections. They typically only impact larger elections as spoiler candidates.

        5 votes
      3. sparksbet
        Link Parent
        While technically there are other parties, in practice the US has two parties. In the current congress, there are 4 independent members in the Senate (of a total of 100) and 0 independent members...

        While technically there are other parties, in practice the US has two parties. In the current congress, there are 4 independent members in the Senate (of a total of 100) and 0 independent members in the House (of a total of 435). While there may be some places where a third party has some sway at a very local level, at a national level any third party is virtually non-existent and any serious presidential candidate will run with one of the two dominant parties (for instance, Bernie Sanders is an independent in the Senate but ran in the Democratic party primaries).

        3 votes