What’s a value that you hold but also struggle to live up to?
The original title I conceived of for this was “How are you your own hypocrite?” but I didn’t like that it came across as negative and judgmental. Nevertheless, you can use that as a jumping off point for what I’m trying to get at.
I think we all have ideals and beliefs and values that we simultaneously hold but also fail to meet on a regular basis. I also think these can be hard to identify. We all like to think that we’re consistent individuals and, when something is out of alignment, we often find very good reasons or explanations for why that is. Sometimes those can be valid, but sometimes they’re really just motivated reasoning aimed at keeping a sense of internal consistency in ourselves.
I’m interested in people exploring the inconsistent areas of themselves (it’s been something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately), but I think to do that this topic needs to be a space where people can be open, honest, and vulnerable.
Please do not jump on someone for the inconsistencies they share or for their failure to meet certain standards. Please do not use this as an opportunity to get in arguments with others.
The whole point of the thread is to explore difficult areas rather than judge them. If people feel that they will have to be pressured to defend themselves in doing so, they simply won’t comment and the whole thought experiment will be for moot. Think of this as a shared space for thoughtful self-reflection and commiseration rather than a battleground.
I rarely speak up when someone spouts bigotry. I have an almost pathological fear of confrontation (even writing something in mild disagreement online makes my heart race so hard my watch pings at me to calm down). Instead I distance myself from that person - which doesn’t make the world in any way better. There are some exceptions: most people in my family I would confront and my father-in-law, but we were recently at a family event where BIL and SIL said some questionable things and all I could muster up was a stern(ish) look.
I want to be the kind of person who speaks loud about what I believe. I admire people like that so much. I just can’t get over my own anxieties to do it.
I think you're being too hard on yourself here and viewing this as a binary. You've framed saying something directly confrontational as success, and not saying something as failure. Direct sometimes works, if the person is comfortable with confrontation and experienced in managing it. But intervening in these situations and standing up to something that's not right is more complicated than that. You can still be true to your values without confrontation.
I worked in a very male-dominated workplace with a lot of issues pertaining to sexual harrassment, racism, homophobia and transphobia, etc. I am always comfortable directly calling out bad behaviour and intervening, because that's just my personality. But what I learned through going through bystander intervention training with my coworkers is that many felt the same as you - 'I should say something, but I can't, so I suck.'
This training was brilliant, and it was about empowering people who aren't necessarily comfortable with direct confrontation to perform effective bystander interventions. It was built around 5 D's I think - Direct, Delegate, Distract, Delay, Document. This video is kinda similar to the training we received, but this online resource covers much of the same material.
You don't have to be confrontational to make a difference. You can find your own way, and often the gentler, more subtle approach is much more effective.
Thank you, I’ve saved those links to look at later.
This has been a timely topic for me actually because it’s something that I’ve been thinking about a bit lately. I consider myself to have a lot of the “correct” opinions; I’m supportive of LGBTQIA+ people, anti-TERF, pro choice, anti-racist, etc etc. But! Does this mean anything if I only ever talk to people who think like me? I’m a stay at home parent in a very lefty area, all my friends and all the other parents I meet are left leaning. We’re in this nice little tolerant bubble.
Of course I know it is important whether I’m actively fighting bigots or not (I can still vote, for example) but I admire people who do.
If everyone is loud, no one is heard. There's nothing wrong with leading by quiet example (tho admittedly that doesn't work as well online, and I am right there with you on the anxiety bit).
Thank you for the reassurance :) I find I’m getting better as I get older, but there’s always work to do!
"The moment you raise your voice, you lost the argument"
"Talk soft but carry a big stick"
It's okay to be quiet, there are very clever and patient ways you can correct or destroy someone using words alone.
I genuinely revile this statement. It's used so much in corporations to shut down people who are disenfranchised by behaviours or policies that are in place.
My current boss uses the term "You've very emotional" about something that is extremely personal when challenging policy, and it's nothing short of infuriating that people think 'cold & calculated' is the right way to approach almost any more.
Emotion isn't a bad thing by any means. If you're swinging punches... you've stepped over the line. But a raised voice? A curse or swear? We're passionate creatures by default and stripping that back just doesn't help us at all. I think even the Stoics have areas where they argued passionately with raised voices and frustrated behaviours.
It's not a moral statement. It's a practical one. I don't think people who get angry and yell during arguments are wrong, they're just ineffective.
You're not going to convince anyone of anything by yelling at them. Once you start raising your voice it's ceased to be a discussion, or even an argument. It's just a shouting match. Whoever you're yelling at has dug in their heels and you're not going to convince them of anything. You're just "angry insane person", and can be completely written off. You've stolen your own power.
Shouting and screaming at each other? Not helpful. Being passionate and delivering a much needed wake up call? Entirely helpful.
But they are seen by so many as the same thing. It's exhausting.
Which frankly, is just defeatist nonsense in my eyes.
It smacks of rhetoric around 'you must behave exactly <this specific way> in order to be heard properly' with said specific way being whatever 'the powers that be' want.
I've got ADHD. It makes me tremendously volatile around matters of injustice (especially when discussing things like ADHD and the treatment of people with it). The amount of time I've sat across the desk with someone going "You're very emotional about this" in a derisive, condescending, parental tone because they've refused to acknowledge, understand and figure out how to actually behave like a reasonable human being is insane (most recently because I asked for some reasonable adjustments at work that they promptly turned down figuring they knew better.) It gets tedious having to deal with people who use rhetoric like this to disenfranchise people who can't vocalise things the same way that they do (Not saying you are, but I'm explaining the reason it's frustrating to head/read.)
There's a real problem in society at the moment where 'emotional' = wrong. Where realistically it's what we need more of... people showing emotions, whatever they actually are. Rather than supressing and sanatising personalities to please everyone around us.
Shouting and screaming at each other? Not helpful. Being passionate and delivering a much needed wake up call? Entirely helpful.
But they are seen by so many as the same thing. It's exhausting.
I'm not talking about the powers that be, or making a theoretical, ethical judgement call. I'm talking about a practical argument about something. If your partner is doing something that you think is selfish, yelling at them about it and losing your shit just because you're passionate about it, even if maybe in your mind, that anger is justified, is not an effective way to communicate.
Whether that's just or not doesn't really matter, it's just the nature of human communication.
That's just a conversation, No?
And if you said that in the first place, that would have been easier to respond to. I had to assume that you were responding to much of what I said in my comment, rather than what you would like to have spoken about.
I did say that in the first place
I think it's accurate to say that they're in the wrong, too. Yelling and screaming can mean you're intentionally inflicting stress and emotional pain on the other person, and trying to brute-force your way to 'winning' some kind of dispute- i.e., you're basically throwing a tantrum. IMO it's is a behavior that we should expect people to grow out of once they stop being toddlers, and something we should never accept within close relationships.
As someone with ADHD who is struggling a bit at work, can I ask what you asked for?
You can.
I asked for a different way of looking at project management and how we deliver things. I was resoundingly rejected based on what amounts to, "That sounds like paperwork". They half arsed the approach in a big way and I got told "There you go, crack on", despite that not being helpful.
This is also going to vary somewhat between cultures. If normal disagreement includes yelling (I'm thinking of Italy but I'm sure there are others), then you haven't lost anything unless you yourself have lost control. But this is just adding a nuance. I think you make a good argument.
True, yeah. I'm speaking from a very US-centric POV here, because that's the only culture I really have any sort of deep familiarity with. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with yelling, it's just that in mainstream US culture, it will get you written off pretty quickly.
I agree with all of this, but I don’t speak up at all. Even speaking softly would be an improvement! Or I should really say it’s what I aspire to - that’s a more positive way to put it.
You can also just send them a text about it later or something, you can think out your response and confront them in a less direct confrontational way.
This is true and much less scary!
I know what you mean. There have been a number of times I've fought through this anxiety and pushed back, and it's never gone well. I've spent more time on thorough debunkings than I did on some of my college classes. I've taken great pains to remain civil, measured, compassionate... which is already far more consideration than the other parties have shown to me. Even just asking for something as simple as refraining from using racial epithets in my presence has been met with vitriol, condescension, hand-waving dismissal, or other defensive reactions. Some truly impressive relationship implosions have resulted, but I doubt I changed their minds.
At this point, I can't be bothered to write further theses for even those I care about most. Distancing to protect myself is the best I can do. I can't control their reactions, so removing myself is the only recourse. Maybe something I said will eventually sink in, but I either won't be in their lives to find out, or I won't be having further conversations on the subject with them at all.
These confrontations have not helped my anxiety, but they have given me the "gifts" of several bigoted manifestos, numerous conspiracy-laden emails, and one racist PowerPoint. The absurdity of that last one almost makes up for the heartache.
Not everyone can confront things in the same way. Your distance may be more effective than you think, too. Sometimes, a fight is what they're looking for, so denying them the attention is also a tactic.
The racist PowerPoint made me chuckle though I’m sure it was far from funny at the time.
I’m grateful that I haven’t encountered that kind of vitriolic hate-filled bigotry. It’s the insidious “just jokes” kind, or the “that’s just what we said back then” type of ignorance. For me the second type is much harder to address. I’d feel comfortable calling out someone using a slur. Sometimes the type of comments I hear have so many layers of ignorance that it’s overwhelming to think about unpacking it all. I’m tired before I’ve even started. (And it is an immense privilege to be able to choose not to engage. I can’t imagine how it is for people who are forced to, because its them that’s being spoken about this way).
This is a little out of left field, but I used to get this feeling a lot; then I was prescribed a beta blocker for HBP. I looked it up, and it's actually used off-label for anxiety, but very specifically stage fright & other performance specific anxieties. It works so well, it's a banned performance enhancer for several sports.
Personally, it keeps my physical reaction to stress from overwhelming my brain. It's helped me become a more confident person, honestly, because I don't feel like I'm visibly shaking/blushing/dying over everything. I have a condition called cataplexy that is exacerbated by strong emotions, and it also helps reduce the severity. It's like emergency composure in a bottle, lol.
Just something to consider. Best of luck :)
Thank you! My sister takes a beta blocker for when she has to talk in meetings. I think I would consider it if there was something I had to do regularly in my personal or professional life that brought on that type of anxiety. I’m really glad to hear it’s working well for you :)
I'd call out friends and family if they said something blatantly racist/sexist/whatever, but a stranger?
Nah.
You're not going to change their mind, you'll just waste your time having an argument at absolute best, or end up hurt or in jail. It's totally pointless and I don't think anyone has any sort of moral obligation to do that sort of thing.
Yeah I totally agree. Where I wish I were stronger is in confronting family (more specifically my husbands family). Luckily my own family and our friends don’t say the sorts of things that they need to be told off for
I think it depends how you approach the argument. Are you shouting abuse inches from their face? Or are you listening, considering, asking (potentially leading) questions, and telling stories that may cause them to rethink things?
That being said I do 100% agree that no one has an obligation to engage in any of this.
Based on what you're saying, there's a situational aspect to your concerns about confrontation. It's incredibly painful to contemplate confrontations with people you're obligated to spend time around, without benefit of loving, immediate family ties and the implied forgiveness that comes with those bonds.
It might be worthwhile to think about what the silence and internal conflict are doing to you, personally. Waiting until you literally can't restrain yourself from speaking causes real harm to yourself and diminishes your powers of advocacy and argument.
At least in the English-speaking world, we're socialized to compartmentalize passion and reason. As others have mentioned, it's easier for listeners to dismiss a person who appears volatile (and yes, this applies to all genders, but moreso feminine ones) and hold onto unjust, cruel but cool, comfortable, and well-rationalized positions.
This is why it's crucial to open the discussion before you've had it up to the ears with someone's bigoted nonsense. Effective confrontation takes practice and skill at letting go of your fears - sometimes you just have to jump out of the airplane and hope the parachute opens. I've found it's almost never as bad as I thought it would be, particularly when I consciously and deliberately chose the time and place.
Letting my authentic feelings and thoughts be known has led to much stronger relationships with people, and goodness knows it's been a long, hard journey for a shy introvert. And sometimes, you have to be prepared for other people to walk away from what you're saying. Sometimes, the bigoted noise is actually an opening into a person's loneliness, and they're really straining for acceptance while believing they're not worthy of it. That's a frightening situation in itself - how do you convince someone that they're lovable and worthy, without encouraging or endorsing the hatefulness they're expressing? I'm still working on that one.
I'm increasingly grappling with my failures to uphold the values of tolerance and non-judgment.
It's horrifying to me that I'm becoming an angrier, less compassionate person because I'm being confronted with real evil done by people who claim they're good and moral.
However much I tell myself that I don't live in someone else's shoes, the worm of contempt writhes and grows fat on my increasingly reflexive irritation and rage over others' seemingly ignorant, spiteful, or malicious behavior.
I'm a queer atheist, but I used to be able to comfortably accept that most people need a grounding of religious faith to find psychological safety and purpose in a world where suffering and death are the only wholly predictable outcomes. Now even the most innocent expressions of spirituality grate on my ears. It's not just watching the immense political and societal harm done by the recent spate of performative, politicized moralizing. I can't stop forming a belief that the religious people around me are incurably dangerously delusional. It seems to me like half of the front page stories on any given news source offer opportunities to despise some fraction of the religious population because they're afflicted with idiocy or mania. I feel like I'm continually being forced to defend (including in my own head) objective reality. And more often, my own and others' physical and mental safety.
When you're fearful and in defense mode all the time, it's much harder to maintain empathy. When I speak to an acquaintance or stranger who innocently expresses a religious sentiment, part of me starts scanning everything I've heard from them for negative things - are they anti-vaccination, anti-science, climate change deniers, anti-LGBTQ, anti-abortion, pro-gun rights... I'm falling into exactly the reactionary Manichean good vs. evil paradigm that is causing the world to become a worse place. I didn't even have to watch the propaganda, just live with those who do.
I don't want to exist in a perpetual state of simmering rage, suspicion, and disgust at the people around me, most of whom like me believe they're just living their lives. And yes, paradox of tolerance, but it still doesn't stop me from feeling like I'm drifting away from the person I want to be.
I find myself increasingly more judgemental too. I still have empathy, but the older I get the more set my belief that your background or circumstances or whatever may be a reason but they are not an excuse. There comes a point where their ignorance is willful.
(Bravo on this line “the worm of contempt writhes and grows fat on my increasingly reflexive irritation and rage“ what an image!!)
This is a perfect summary for how I feel. For the longest time, I would empathize with people with terrible views, it's not their fault they were raised that way, or fell into a conspiracy hole, or allowed their paranoia to fester. Why should I reject them for things they can't control?
Because it's killing people is why. Their fantasies cause real harm. Their righteousness in the face of rationality hurts people I love. They don't deserve to be immune from the consequences of their decisions, despite the circumstances that led them here, because none of us are immune to the consequences of their decisions.
Well said! I find I still have some empathy, but I also expect better from them. The empathy I feel for their past or upbringing or current situation doesn’t preclude me thinking them a bad person in the present moment
There are days when my overly active imagination really does picture a brain worm, some kids' sci-fi parasite that feeds on hate. But it's just our half-evolved ape brains grappling with unprecedented environments. The old Simpsons line “I'm a rageaholic, I just can't live without rageahol!” is becoming painfully true.
That would make a brilliant story!
True enough about rage. I think as a species we’re wired to chase any strong emotion, but rage is the easiest of them to catch
So you have inspired me to write a few things, partially for you and partially to add to the broader conversation and to resolve some of my own trauma from life and from reddit. If at any point this becomes difficult to read, please stop.
Re existing in simmering rage, I personally found Thich Nhat Hanh's book Peace is Every Step and other books by him and similar books helpful. Also meditation practice. I am still angry with injustice and scared re certain political movements but my mood is less poisoned and it is less disabling.
As for religion, my family background is Christian but bicultural. One side of the family was protestant in that they had a membership and took kids to Sunday school but were practically speaking secular and personally skeptical, agnostic if not atheist. The other side has been very religious for many generations. They have pastors in the family. They immigrated explicitly to find religious freedom. They were and are quite conservative on social issues. However, a hundred years ago, they believed and taught that political participation was worldly and detrimental to finding holiness and practicing personal piety.
Growing up as a precocious kid and a reader, I got some of my books from religious bookstores. In addition to Pilgrim's Progress, I also found there The Hiding Place a memoir by Corrie Ten Boom about how her family's religious commitment led them to build a secret room in their house in Haarlem the Netherlands and hide jewish people until they were caught. She and her sister were in Ravensbruck. I also found there Dietrich Bonhoeffer's Letters and Papers from Prison. Bonhoeffer was a german lutheran pastor who participated in a failed plot to assassinate Hitler.
As a university educated thinking person with a religous background and with close emotional ties to highly religious people I did a lot of research as a young adult about Christianity. If anyone is interested, I can highly recommend two books by historian Jaroslav Pelikan Jesus Through the Centuries and Whose Bible is it.
I'm not going to write a book about my experiences or thought processes. However as an adult, I have come to a few conclusions that I will share. First Biblical innerrancy is a strand of Christian thought that became popular among some branches of Protestant Christianity in response to Darwin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy. It is a malignant teaching, responsible for antirational and antiscientific beliefs and has done tremendous harm. Prior to the fight about Darwin, religious scholars felt free to use various methods of interpreting and attempting to find meaning from scripture, including allegorical interpretation. Liberal protestant clergy still, or even more, do not assert antirational interpretations of the Bible. These days, their churches have lgbt members, marry gay couples, ordain gay clergy.
Second, the alliance between right wing politics and fundamentalist Christianity is new or at least different in character since the end of the Civil Rights movement in the US and the Nixon presidency. It is as dangerous and malignant as the rise of Isis and the Taleban. These days it is sponsoring fascism and I cannot express how deeply I am opposed to it and how deeply it scares me. Liberals are not first on the list to be destroyed should this group come to power, but we are one of their priorities.
I will leave it here. Best wishes.
Edit, I am happy to share some of my history and background. I am also happy to share some of what I have learned about the range and variety of religious belief and practice in the US today and in previous centuries. I am not open to discussing my personal beliefs or philosophical commitments except to say that I am a woman who supports women's rights, abortion rights, gay rights and everyone's right to political freedom and intellectual self determination.
Get off social media, stop reading news constantly and peel yourself away from your screen.
I've experienced similar things, but since I've begun eliminating or reducing this toxic shit in my life, I'm so much more happy, accommodating and willing to meet people on their own grounds.
It's too easy to get sucked into rage bait, even if you consider yourself a leftist. Cut it out and you'll find that people are just people and we're all doing the best we can at any given time.
I mean, unless it directly affects you, (and I mean directly effects you), why does what other people's opinions are, even people you like, have to matter?
I'm friends with anti-vaxxers, despite thinking that opinion is absolutely stupid, I'm friends with pro-lifers too. I'm a staunch atheist and have been my whole life, but my girlfriend is somewhat religious. I'm a gun owner but I'm friends with a lot vehemently anti gun people. It doesn't affect my relationship with them though. It's just something we disagree on, sometimes to quite an extreme. I wouldn't get into a romantic relationship with someone who was pro life or live with someone who absolutely cannot live in a household with guns because those things directly affect my life, but in most cases, those things would never, ever come up as an issue in a relationship, so why focus on them so much? It would be impossible to for me to find someone who has the exact same opinion on every single political thing as me, and I don't even think it would be desirable if I could.
For the sake of argument, did you spend the better part of 2 years inside because of a rising anti-vax, covid hoaxer movement? I did, affected my life pretty directly. I'm lucky, it just ruined my vacation plans, but my grandma died from it. She got the short end of the stick.
Have a warm summer? Fossil fuel industry, their puppets, and climate change deniers are to thank for that one. I'm lucky, my summer was just uncomfortably hot, but there are people out there who no longer have farmland, who have to move away from the equator because there's nothing left for them.
I could go on, but this is real to a lot of people. More than real. My life is affected in significant ways, and even I feel blessed that it's only inconvenient and not devastating. The harm is still real, and in my opinion the people that support this harm do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
That's the definition of something indirectly affecting your life. That specific person being anti-vax didn't make the pandemic happen. It contributed to it in an extremely small way. Someone not believing in climate change didn't directly make the summer hotter. If you could go back in time 20 years and magically make some person in your life believe in climate change, it wouldn't shift the temperature a single degree.
Because it negatively effects me even if it is indirect by your definition. Their actions have a consequence on my life, and if they didn't have those opinions, my life would be better. That's why I care.
One person not believing in climate change is a drop in a stupid ocean made up of individual drops who could have been different. Each one contributes, and each woefully incorrect person perpetuates these falsehoods, leads their lives following artificial, harmful doctrines. Hiding in a collective is a great way to not feel directly responsible.
They vote and spread lies.
We had 4 years of Bolsonaro and 700.000 deaths because of it and that includes people I know.
I'm with OP on that. I can't stand real life fairytales anymore.
Voting and spreading lies would fall under the realm of indirectly affecting you. Most people make decisions at some points that indirectly harm me, including myself.
If that lie killed a relative of Mine, it affected me directly. Let's just agree to disagree on this.
So it's not just an abstraction for me and mine. I don't need to read the news to feel fearful and defensive.
An old and dear friend was violently attacked by someone who decided she looked Chinese. Another old friend was hounded out of a small-town librarian job. Still another friend died because he caught COVID from a nurse who showed up for work at an extended care facility with a fake vaccination certificate. I've got friends who have a suicidal trans child in Florida, and can't just move away. There are many queer and trans people on Tildes and other sites whose stories and lives I cherish, and I fear for their safety. I'm still in touch with "abortion" doctors (a/k/a maternal-fetal medicine specialists) across the U.S. that I used to work with, who are literally running in fear for the lives of their patients, if not themselves. I was in a roomful of parents with kids at Parkland High School when they got word of the shootings, including a friend whose daughter sustained injuries.
I'm still breathing smoke from Canada's climate change-induced wildfires. I'm looking at some extra joint replacements due to the unavailability of one of my arthritis medicines during the pandemic, since loonies decided it cured COVID. There's a good chance the other critical arthritis drug I depend on will be outlawed because it can be used as an abortifacient. In some states, it's now illegal for me to dress the way I normally do in public. Did I mention that I'm a Jewish non-believer, and half my family tree went missing in Europe not too long ago, in historical terms? I've got relatives in Ukraine who are at risk from an old madman's 21st Century "holy" war.
Do I really need to continue with my litany of direct concerns? This is the town I live in.
I'm not looking to surround myself with a cozy echo chamber. I'm friendly with people who have beliefs I disagree with, up to a point. Yet it's glaringly obvious to me, at least, that people are acting violently or obstructing necessary action on the basis of beliefs I have reason to find intolerable.
And that's me demonstrating that I'm not living up to my values. I'm sorry to unleash a spew of bitter anger, but I just can't sit back and smilingly, dishonestly pretend to be OK with it all, without conflict with my other values.
I understand this and I don't know if it's just me or what, but it was actually shockingly easy to divorce myself from it.
I started by diminishing my exposure to social media and eliminating anything that directly shoved a lot of politics in my face. Not that I don't keep abreast of the information, but I don't watch videos of highly politically motivated people intended to incense people or anything. This alone meant that my exposure was reduced and I saw that there weren't as many people in my daily life who behaved in ways that raised those concerns.
In addition, I just compartmentalized religions to an extent. I've never really been religious particularly, but I get that religion in all its forms is or was a means of controlling fears. We created Gods and monsters to break the curse of the unknown, and as we conquered the world to make it known - we killed our gods until all that was left was death itself. Right now people are growing fears in different ways, and turning to their one-size-fits-all religion across America.
Their fears are that their way of life is changing, that their community is under threat, that they may not be strictly black-and-white good guys, that there are even just problems that need solving. People are reactionary, and with time will calm down.
Religion isn't inherently an evil - it's a place of community and mutual devotion. The problem is that it's easy to mishandle a bomb, and these communities are currently pent up. But there are a lot of people who aren't so stuck into all of that such that they fail to see the forest for the trees. Plenty of people found religion to make them feel at peace with the things they can't change instead of being angry because they can't change it. In a case where I can assume a person in front of me is delusional and wielding the weapon of indignance or that they're simply trying to find temperance of their fears - I'll choose optimism over malice.
Maybe it's the long standing policy of that assumption that people generally are trying to do the best they can for themselves that means I don't take offense to much. But one way or another, I get the concerns you raise and I hope you're able to find the peace you want as well. Peace and love to everyone in the meantime.
I agree with this sentiment, and it was something that I used to struggle with.
I think the issue is like all online media is based around ragebait in this day and age. I think there was this era of the internet and media where nice and good things were the main drivers of user engagement, and then the corporations realized that rage was driving the clicks.... and then it snowballed till vast parts of the internet were driven by it. Which, even if you don't engage with, it affects the people who do engage with it, which is almost everyone.
What really helped me was internalizing that a lot of problems were so outside of my control, and scope and context of existence that I needed to let go.
Additionally, I sat down and worked to understand how these people think. I read several articles about how propaganda influences people and how specifically psy-ops in general work. I did learn to emphasize with these people, and all I feel is pity. These are people who practice a religion based off of a 2000 year old guy who preached peace and love, and unironically miss every beat of what he said. What is there to feel other than pity? It's just another tragedy in sea of tragedies. A flock of people who unironically would be damned to hell by the very book they espouse.
All we can do, is to be the best people we can be to the world, and especially the people we love.
I agree with most of what you said. However, I think the algorithms that find, promote and actively spread ragebait harm society. We need rules to regulate this. The evidence is accumulating about the choices big social media makes about what to feed people and why and the harm that it does.
I've felt like this before a lot too. I'm pessimistic normally, but it was incredibly bad around like 2014-2016.
It was a consequence of too much doomer news consumption, turning every day into a bad day, turning everyone I disagree with, even family and friends, into a direct despicable enemy.
What worked for me a few years ago was to take a step back from it for a while and try and consume less negativity, for me that while took like 2 years, and I might need to do it again.
I strongly believe that you should never assume the worst of people, should seek to empathize and understand before casting judgement; that everyone is a product of their environment and deserves at least a little grace, and opportunity to grow. And you know, I think I do a good job of living up to these values. With one exception: I extend no grace to myself. When I make a mistake, even a minor one, all that goes out the window and suddenly I'm seething about how useless/horrible/applicable insult I am, how I'll never change, this is why no one loves me, etc, etc. I'm in therapy for this but I honestly just can't figure out why I'm unable to be kind to myself. Something to do with my parents, I imagine, or society, but my reactionary self-criticism is becoming a real obstacle to personal growth and I don't know how to clear it.
God, I feel this. Really, really hard.
I'm also really, really bad about trusting and opening up to people, no matter how much I try to be there for my friends and such. I just... can't do emotional vulnerability. Even with my therapist or my parents, or friends I've known for decades, it's just - my brain automatically goes "well, they don't really want to hear about what's going on, I don't want to trouble them with my problems," and so on and so forth.
I don't know if I could even point to a reason why this fear is so deeply ingrained in me, but it is. It's maddening.
100%. I have a similar fear, and for me personally, I think I'm worried that if people get to know me too well, they'll start to hate me. The 'logic' being, I know myself super well and I (often) hate myself, so the closer people get to me the more they'll start to share my views. It takes a lot of energy for me to push past this and open up.
I hate animal cruelty, and am a vegetarian for a reason. While I try to lessen dairy products etc. it's really difficult to get it out of your diet completely.
I do my best of course, and to an extend its all we can do and my current housing situation makes it nearly impossible to turn vegan. Assuming I get disciplined enough for it.
Knowing and trying to be better isn't the same as knowing and not caring.
Keep it up, you're doing great for what you can
I'm vegan. Funnily enough, I still have regular internal debates about plastic use, honey, petroleum products (like in cosmetics), direct trade chocolate / coffee, buying new, elastane, travel carbon footprint, local produce vs. not local, and general farming practices. This isn't to diminish the impact of going vegan: I tried vegetarianism after a decade of veganism and found it hard to go back, to let go of the sense of peace I had about my lifestyle. But speaking practically, reduction of animal products without abstinence is still impactful, and you can make positive impacts without giving up dairy.
I'm a veggie as well mate and have been for over a year. I enjoy it.
But milk is just wonderful and I can't cut it out no matter how much I tried.
Everyone's got a line you know? Like, no matter what, your existence will cause other beings to suffer. You'll squish ants. You'll kill insects on your drive. The products you consume will kill birds or rodents.
Everyone decides how much extra effort devoted to minimizing that suffering is warranted. You have to accept that you can't avoid it, and you can minimize it, but that minimizing it comes at personal cost, and those costs increase as you go further along; it's a classic case of diminishing returns. There's no right or wrong place along that spectrum.
Can you describe both ends of the spectrum to which you are referring?
Well, just as ridiculous extremes, one end would be someone who tortures and kills animals solely for fun, and the other end would be someone who goes to ridiculously outlandish lengths to minimize any possible harm to any sort of being ever at the expense of a semblance of a practical lifestyle (a freegan who only eats things that have fallen from plants, inspects each square foot of area before putting their feet there to minimize the chance of crushing anything, doesn't use electricity or burn anything to reduce carbon footprint, doesn't use antibacterial products of any kind, etc)
Do you actually think there’s not a wrong place on that spectrum?
I haven't eaten meat since the 90s, but I can't go without real butter and real cheese.
I always tell people who express interest in vegetarianism to not strive to fit into a category, and do what feels right and is good for you. Hell, even reducing the amount in one's diet is a big step for some, and that's great in my eyes!
I'm lacto-ovo-pescatarian and I was going to say the same thing!
I don't think it's impossible to have cruelty-free dairy, but if I'm honest with myself, I know how American animal agriculture works.
I don't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good, but I have more dairy than I should.
I think it's important that you can recognize that inconsistency in yourself. It can definitely be difficult. I was vegetarian for a bit before I finally bit the bullet and went vegan, and giving up dairy was the hardest part, so I know your struggle.
I'm happy to answer any questions you have, if you'd like, or give some tips that helped me.
I’m not sure if it quite applies, but I struggle with being patient. I am in charge of leading a team at my job, and I am patient, understanding, and forgiving with the team. If they make mistakes they all know they can come to me and we will fix it together, learn together.
However, when it comes to myself, I have none of that patience. I am not patient, understanding, or forgiving. When I make a mistake I beat up on myself and I get frustrated. It is easier to solve the problems of others than it is to solve my own problems. It is much easier to say that we make mistakes and that is how we learn when I’m talking about others, but don’t give myself that same grace. I know this about myself, and I’ve always been this way. I’ve tried to change it and not really ever had success in it.
Regardless of how you think about yourself, you sound like a great manager!
If it's to the point that it interferes with your life, it might be worthwhile to consider therapy for it. I know that it may seem to small and you may have considered it yourself but can't for whatever reason, but inner peace is worth so much. It makes life so much more enjoyable... And unfortunately beating yourself up isn't uncommon. :/
I want to be a good Dad, to be chill, taking everything with a sense of humor and being willing to forgive my children's mistakes. The polar opposite of my Dad, who I needed to walk on eggshells around, because you never knew when he'd fly off the handle.
I struggle. A lot. I'm a lot like my Dad and I often do rage over stupid shit and get mad at my kids when they absolutely do not deserve it. I lack patience I should have.
I try, at least, to apologize and tell my kids that my behavior wasn't appropriate and I shouldn't treat them like that, but I feel like an abuser going through the cycle of abuse. Abusing, then being apologetic and trying to make it up to them.
I'm still trying, but it's hard.
Oooh I recognise myself in this one! Something I read from a child psychologist (I think… some flavour of expert about children) was that children aren’t harmed by being hurt, they’re harmed by being alone with the hurt. In other words it’s not losing your temper that’s likely to cause trauma, but not apologising and letting them think they deserved it.
We all default to parenting in the way we were raised. It’s a long and difficult and massive undertaking to change that and go against your instinctual responses to react in a different way. Any of us trying to do this are going to fail, often. My feeling is that if I can do better than my parents, even if it isn’t perfect, then I’ve done well for my children. And that by sometimes failing and apologising, I’m teaching them how to apologise to people they hurt too, so that’s a silver lining.
Forgiving yourself for not acting how you’d like is important. A bit of shame can help you, but too much makes you start to feel like trying is pointless. It’s easier to change when you feel positive about your ability to do it.
Sounds to me like what you’re doing already is amazing! I hope you can give yourself some grace and recognise it
Thanks; I am absolutely better than my Dad. Who, while kind of shitty, has his own qualities. But still, when I act like him, I can't help but feel like I'm really failing.
I try to be generous with myself, but I do fail and I often feel like shit for the rest of the day when I do. My 5-year old still brings-up times I lost my temper and I find myself apologizing again and telling them it's not the way a Daddy should act.
I just hope it gets easier the older they get, but I'm not sure it will. I'm sure it'll be hard watching them make mistakes as teens when they get there.
I think as they get older it’ll be hard in different ways. Under 5 is such a hard age for me.
It really can’t be overstated how impactful it is that you apologise. Having the humility and courage to admit wrongdoing is so powerful. I bet that’s sticking with your kids even more than the tempers - they just have no idea how unusual it is and don’t have the words to express it. But it is absolutely affecting their future in positive ways! I’m the future when they mess up, they’ll have the modelling to know how to forgive themselves.
My parents have never apologised to me in my life, so I know I’m doing better than they did. It’s not perfect, but I hope I’m giving them the tools to do better than I have if they decide to have their own children - this is what breaking the cycle is, to me; it’s not just about trying to be better yourself, it’s about enabling your children to be better when it’s their turn to be parents.
I think you sound very insightful. Your children are lucky to have you :)
An important consequence of apologizing is that it implicitly acknowledges they are their own individual people who can be wronged and hurt. People who treat their kids as objects or property scare the shit out of me. I remember a redditor once deliberately argued with me that children were property.
Yes, really important addition, thank you! Giving them agency is so powerful for kids
I'm not sure if you are going or not, but therapy can help with this. As in, a good therapist can give you coping mechanisms to first curtail the anger and reaction, and second to help you forgive yourself when you slip. It's a muscle and a process so I hope you continue to try to be better; it is all anyone can do.
Without ousting myself in any specific ways, I'd like to freely confess that I am the "chief among sinners"': ALL of the ideals and values that I hold, I in fact keep none of them. Most of the time I am inhibited by fear of pain or jail or public judgement should I outwardly play the hypocrite, rather than truly loving the values for their own sake. And worse yet, in the off chance I happen to be acting in decent ways, it is as likely to be out of wanting to be praised, as it is likely to be a case of "Lord thank you that I am not like that worse off person over there".
The remaining bits of decency are probably best explained as "decent upbringing" and "comfortable economic circumstances" rather than any active resolution on my part.
I am basically just a Clever Hans of punishment stick avoidance and vanity carrot chasing conditioning.
:) the funniest part though, is that even after admitting all that, I remain my favorite person in the entire history of all the known universe.
So, perhaps, I highly value humility and kindness to others, precisely because I'm a raging narcissist who is supremely and unreasonably kind to myself.
It sounds like you do keep to your ideals and values, but that you're questioning whether your motives in doing so are as pure as other's... which isn't something you can definitively know about other people.
Ego is a doozy. Integrity is the character trait I'd say value most, and yet I see more than a little of myself in your post. I have to remind myself daily to do better, as well as not to feel too proud about it... I'm slowly accepting it as a struggle essential to the human condition (I suppose), but that doesn't make it any more fun. If you haven't before, I'd recommend reading Camus' The Fall. It's a short but somewhat challenging read, perhaps it will resonate with you as it did with me.
You know, you're probably an objectively kinder, nicer person towards everyone else as well?
I'm only too aware, from experience, that you can't be cruel towards yourself without negative impact on other people.
That's very true that being down on oneself is often a negative thing, for sure. I know of some people who....I guess..... eventually become immobilized by the weight of negativity. And also it's very easy to imagine if they're that poorly off then everyone else is probably awful too.
My priest likes to say there are ditches on both sides of the road, and that one can fall off the horse from the right as well as from the left :) it's hard to stay in the middle!
For myself I know I'm naturally extremely self indulgent and think very very highly of myself lol so, the kind of correction I best benefit from would be unsuitable for others who need a lot more lifting up and an improved sense of self :)
religion + morals is a weird combo.
I'm sorry you feel that way. And I'm always upset to hear the opposite as well, when religious people think non-religious people must not be capable of moral living because they must be less holy than they are themselves
I wish it was weird, chocobean basically describes the entire population of the neighborhood I grew up in
That sucks, friend. I get it. I had an experience as a teen where I learned that my parents were not willing to experience nuance nor hold two contradictory thoughts in their heads for the purpose of learning, and it really affected my relationship with them. I still distrust any moral or scientific arguments they make to this day, and that distrust extended itself to much of my community due to values that I knew my friends, neighbors and associates shared with my parents that would likely lead to the same results.
The thing that pulled me out of a real mental nosedive was (and this is a description of a lucky turn, not advice) getting a job in a small, close-knit workplace where we share some basic thoughts about our role in humanity but are willing to hear from each other and consider new points of view. Through years of built-up trust, we feel comfortable sharing some off-the-wall stuff knowing that at the end of the
argumentdiscussion we'll be getting back to working together and having each other's backs. This dynamic is amazing for me, giving me essentially an audience with which to share my discoveries and a source of new discoveries outside of my own experience. Having the boundary of needing to work closely together keeps us from crossing lines, and mutual respect keeps us from simply dismissing each other.Is there still some mutual distrust within certain topics? Certainly. We know which topics we are always gonna disagree about. But without the weird power dynamics of a family or religious community to put a thumb on the scale, these discussions feel so much more real.
I hope you find a forgiving, understanding, and resilient audience. They exist. And I hope this whole thing comes off as hopeful, because that is my intent. Good conversational partners still exist. That makes me glad.
I believe in unconditional love, say, as Jesus taught it (without the biases of the people who came after). I believe nothing is more important than acceptance and empathy, and that living for another is worthy, and leads to personal fulfillment and to a better world for all. I know it's also important to care for one's self, but some of the worst people I see care about themselves a lot, just not about anyone else.
As the years go by, I find myself increasingly more bitter and cynical. I don't trust anyone and I can't make a conscious effort to get close to anyone. People always disappoint, and I'm so raw on the inside I can't stand much more of that except in very small doses.
I believe in restorative justice and rehabilitation and that incarceration should be an absolutely last resort and the death penalty should never be considered. Yet a lot of the time, I open the news, and it's really fucking hard to maintain that ideal, even when I know that the preference for punitive justice is cultural and the entire system is rigged against the most vulnerable.
As someone who lives in a major urban area, I am genuinely curious how these restorative justice methods are meant to keep habitual offenders from reoffending. I am not so much into punishment, but the 'take them off the streets' objective really resonates with me, especially for certain crimes. In any large enough group of people, some subset will be into doing any possible behavior, because they can. Some people climb Everest or surf subway cars. Some do crimes. Crimes put the rest of us at risk.
I'm not quite a prison abolitionist and it sounds like @draconicrose isn't either, so the realistic goal of that kind of reformation isn't to eliminate prisons entirely. But if you address the issues that lead people in a society to engage in crime, such as removing barriers to work, providing education with a stipend, generally address poverty on both systemic and individual levels, etc you address a lot of the little shit. Then you can do education that develops empathy. It's not easy but it's doable
But I think there will always need to be a way to separate some people from society.
To be clear I am one hundred percent a supporter of strong safety nets, possibly even something like universal basic income.
In my region we live with pharmacies and supermarkets that have locked down many products because of organized crime sponsoring shoplifting on a massive scale. Catalytic converter theft rings. A rising trend in violent home burglaries targetting the elderly. and more.
I am not an expert but I worked with folks on parole for about years. The vast majority didn't want to hurt anyone; they didn't always have good anger management and they definitely made poor decisions, but sometimes they made the best decisions they could at the time. Sometimes selling drugs was the only option to supporting family.
Sometimes stealing from stores is the only apparent option either due to internal or external lack of alternatives. Some people find that the use of force and violence becomes easy because they're slowly dehumanizing the people they use it on.
And yeah some people are so antisocial in their behaviors they're not gonna come back from that. Or it'll take a long time. But you can develop empathy for others and rehumanize others. It's doable, if not for everyone.
In fact, murderers were my favorite clients. Because they'd made one very bad decision for a complicated variety of reasons, and nearly universally wanted to do the right things from then on.
I don't know current stats but we've been on a long downward trend of violent crime for decades. Things spike - catalytic converters for example - but other than a post COVID spike I don't know that we're trending up in violence. I'd have to go do some research on the most recent data though so that's just me talking from past knowledge.
Habitual reoffenders usually reoffend because the issue that caused the first offense wasn't resolved, be it mental illness, poverty, material conditions, whatever. The biggest problem with our current prison systems is that they punish the behavior without addressing the root cause of it in any shape or form.
Restorative justice and rehabilitation are not incompatible with separating an offender from the community and, in many cases, that is actually preferable, but not in the way that is done in the current prison system.
If you're really curious I honestly recommend doing a dive into these concepts. I'm not an expert, or even an activist, I was just convinced by the sound logic of the arguments put forth online and, most of all, recedivism statistics.
I will stress that it's counterintuitive, but it does make logical sense and does have data to support it, which is what makes it hard to keep as a belief when you've been taught all your life that bad behavior must be punished.
I'm right there with you.
For what it's worth, when we see something become a virtual universal across all cultures, at that point it becomes very likely that it's not nurture but nature that is driving that cultural institution or behavior. I think that a desire for retribution and punitive justice is innate. That's what makes it so hard to fight against. Our instincts tell us that the "bad" should be punished, potentially violently.
As with many instincts, it takes education and a lot of cultural force to overcome it. But I think—I hope—it's an instinct that we could potentially overcome. If we wanted to.
I'm not sure if I agree with the assessment that a virtual universal means it's human nature driving it, given the history of imperialism in the world right now, but that's besides the point because you're right, it will take a lot of effort to overcome and I also hope we can do it!
I really struggle with being vulnerable with other people. I want to be able to be able to form relationships with people where I can be open with my feelings, but I really can't.
Literally every relationship in my life I am fully willing to lose. I essentially go into every relationship fully expecting the next time I spend time with someone will be the last time I ever see them. I figure that everyone will eventually grow to hate me, and thus I hide vast parts of myself for anyone I even mildly care about.
And, the corollary, is that every relationship that I form, I am completely willing to burn. I am ready to cut a relationship lose at a moments notice, and never speak to them again.
I essentially put up a façade. I have a list of details about my life that I am willing to provide to people, organized in my head, but I refuse to share my actual feelings and intimate details about who I am.
I really don't want to be this person, and I do this for a few reasons. First, out of a need for control. But I also spent years isolating myself due to mental health issues, and it really warped my views on relationships and people. Finally, I had several friendships that ended due to mental illness on their part, and I've just learned to be detached from it all.
There's not really a good solution to it, I just try a little bit harder with each new person I meet.
I find it helps to just shelve some relationships into a dormant phase while I, or they, process crunchy parts of life. Maybe it's my inner hoarder. But I am loath to throw things away if there was ever any sort of value to me in them. Even when those things are scuffed and threadbare.
Even people I fell out with as a child are still up there collecting dust. Maybe sometime in the future when we're both older and wiser we'll run into each other and laugh at our foolish foibles.
Not to revert to reddit, but your username really fits with this thread. Also clever self-deprecation.
In the UK parliament's two houses, by tradition, they do not refer directly each other by name but as 'the other place' or 'another place' as a courteous way to show their contempt. Given that there are so many refugees from reddit here maybe we could do the same for there.
I'm judgemental when I shouldn't be, or think I'm being better than others at times. I hate this about myself. It's a core belief of mine not to be judgemental; I believe that no one can know anything for certain, and that most things are not that big of a deal to get upset about. And most importantly, I believe that no one is better than anyone else. Yet sometimes I just judge people and I don't even realize I'm doing it until I'm doing it. Once I recognize I'm doing it, I stop, put my head on straight, but I do it without even thinking and that's the part that bothers me. I don't know how to change this about myself.
OP - Wonderful topic, just wanted to thank you for posting it. It reminds me of this problem/conflict with myself, among other things, and is a change to make positive changes.
Something I read once was that your first thought is what society conditioned you to think; your next thought is what you really think.
I find myself judging people sometimes too, but I think it’s catching it and changing your thought that’s the important part. That shows who you really are
That's a really cool thought, thanks for sharing this quote. I have to say I've never heard about that or thought about that. It's just one sentence, but it gives so much to think about.
I appreciate the kindness here. Unfortunately, I struggle sometimes with realizing I'm doing this, or at least I don't catch that I'm doing it quick enough. It's better than it once was, but it's something I really need to work on. I just catch myself sometimes feeling like I'm better than someone else.. I've felt that way even towards my own friends before. I hate it and I know it's 100% bullshit. I just personally don't believe that anyone is better than another. Or even if you do happen to have a better grip on life in one area than someone else, there is always things they have a much better handle on than you do. And even if not... who cares? So you were just lucky enough to encounter experiences that taught you that, and maybe that person didn't (yet). Had the life experiences been reversed, maybe your beliefs/actions/behaviors whatever would be swapped as well, and you'd be doing that thing you look down on. (P.s. I'm using the word You in a general way - I'm not referring to you. I was just thinking out loud.)
I see people who don't display this judgement, they never think they're better than anyone. I really look up to that example, and want to be more that way. Really, it disgusts me to even admit I do this. Maybe yes it could have something to do with society, or even the way I was raised. Damn, thank you for that idea. Gives me some ideas on other ways to try and solve this problem within my self.
Didn't mean to ramble on here, and don't feel obligated to say more here, I don't mean to put that on you. It was helpful to just write this out.
“ I see people who don't display this judgement, ” you really have no way of knowing this! You can’t always see people’s internal thoughts on their faces. It’s your actions that matter, and those actions include redirecting your thoughts when you’re having less charitable ones. We are all shaped by society. If you read a hundred headlines about people on welfare being lazy, and then you meet someone on welfare, you might immediately think of them as lazy because of the influence of the media - if you catch yourself and think “wtf, there are xyz reasons to be on welfare” and reframe your thought, I don’t think that’s you being judgemental. And it doesn’t always happen that quickly - it doesn’t make you bad if you think those first thoughts for much longer!
Thanks a lot for this, and for the continued kindness here. You're correct, I don't know what's in another person's mind. Maybe they do have judgemental thoughts, but they catch them quickly and re-direct it. But if they do, they appear to do so very quick, because their actions are ones of pure non-judgement. I really aspire to that. I'd love to get to a point where I don't have those thoughts even initially, and where society loses that influence on me. Given what you're suggesting, maybe it's an interesting metric for understanding how much society and our upbringing still influences us: to see when and if/how often we have those sorts of initial thoughts. I need to think about this for a while!
Have some kindness for yourself too! Even just being aware of this and wanting to work on it is much further along the journey than some. It’s a work in progress, the more you practice and are aware the quicker it gets :)
Thank you, I should. It was helpful to read your quote about society, because until then I had never considered that could play a role in this. The interesting thing I'm discovering about practicing awareness is that it takes a while for it to become an ingrained habit. For example, sometimes if I'm focusing on it, I'll catch these things and make progress. Then, a few months down the road, if I stop practicing it, I will lose a lot of that progress. It really requires continued, sustained effort (in my experience at least). However, I firmly believe change is possible, because there have been a few similar things I have tried to change, and I have had success in altering those thought patterns (not 100% success yet, but, the change is occurring, and the new thoughts are becoming more natural.)
I try to use a simple mantra as the highest too level ideal to strive for - just don't be a dick. simple but flexible. I break it all the time, but generally by not thinking, so it's a good way to add little markers to my life to remind me that hey my dude think for a second and be a good person.
for the record I think I mostly achieve it. as someone with a healthy dose of autism/adhd it's sometimes useful to realise by putting something off or not having that chat with a friend actually you might be being a dick, because I'm not always aware of things outside my own small bubble.
it's also useful when someone is annoying or hurtful as a simple start point for analysing intentions. are they taking a joke a little too far but not intending to actually hurt? do they not realise what they are doing? or are they just being a dick.