On NSFW Content Rules
I’ve seen some discussion about whether or not NSFW content should be allowed, but I’d just like to throw my suggestion out there.
Since some of the documentation mentions it, I think that most people are assuming that nsfw will be allowed. If it is allowed I’d like for pornography to be against the rules, while non pornographic NSFW content is allowed.
There’s a few reasons for this, mainly because tildes seems to be very community and discussion focused, and pornographic content doesn’t foster either a community or discussion (usually). Additionally, tildes doesn’t have anything unique to offer in this space, categorized pornography is something you can find in a multitude of places, and the design goals of tildes don’t contribute anything novel in pornography browsing.
General NSFW posts on the other hand I can see fostering some kind of community discussion, take a look at the the /r/sex subreddit as a decent example of a useful and moderated NSFW community (not perfect, but I do think it has a net positive impact on the reddit users who visit).
This is most likely what we're going to go for - now that we're really starting to grow, I think I need to write up some more formal posting guidelines. Here's a comment I made on Hacker News a couple of weeks ago that should help explain how I'm thinking of it:
That's the ideal way to go. Seems like reddit has had it's fair share of creeper porn, subreddits that only have links to videos, and others. While there's a place for that, it doesn't exactly foster any discussion. You'd have to disallow communities like Gonewild following that same philosophy. I've never found much use for the NSFW subreddits with just porn links but looking at reddit's most visited subs... those seem to be in the top.
Porn/Sex is always going to be one of the top "topics". It can feel kinda blunt to be said but in the end the vast majority of the population has a sex drive and it doesn't make sense to deny it or act surprised.
If it does turn out of be a grand Jewish conspiracy. I'm deeply grateful for their efforts.
From the creators of the circumcised penis comes a new frontier of innovation!
I can't imagine Reddit would want to ban porn. There'd be a user outrage like no other, and considering how many visitors the porn subs get, that would be a lot of clicks and therefore ad revenue to miss out on. The most I can really see them wanting to do is make it more difficult to stumble on it, like maybe not letting you visit NSFW subreddits at all unless you log in to an account and confirm that you want to see it.
One thing a lot of people don't consider as well: porn is hugely valuable for "unique visitor" metrics, because the way those are usually measured will treat each private/incognito browser session as a "unique visitor". If a lot of people are using a new incognito session every time they're looking at reddit for porn (which probably isn't uncommon at all), their user numbers are likely being massively inflated.
Tech companies sell advertising (and are valued by investors) largely based on their traffic numbers, and I'm sure reddit knows that if they banned porn their numbers would drop precipitously.
Can't have a good percentage increase without a little purge now and then
Also while searching for niche pornography in the past some of the top results have been odd reddit communities and I would say they'd get extra traffic from that.
I agree. Reddit has a lot of posts but those posts have no discussion (nor is one really required). People go there to find esoteric things even though most porn websites these days have categories, comments, and sorting by top viewed, etc. I don't really see a need for Tildes to allow that sort of content when it's pretty well served in other locations. It also doesn't add the type of community members that would contribute much to the site.
Well, if Tilde wants to be a Reddit-killer, a pornography ban is going to hinder that I would think. Then again, most social media doesn't allow it, so it might not be a big deal. My comment is useless.
i don't think it's intended to be a reddit-killer. Even on the discussion about "fluff" there was a sentiment floating around that reddit and tumblr etc. can have low-quality content that appeals to the lowest common denominator, while tildes can have higher quality content. How you measure that or make that distinction is ambiguous to me, and whether it's a wise sentiment or not I don't know - but there it is.
That's a good point, I didn't consider it from that perspective.
Another way to think about it - good quality content and discussions have been getting their asses collectively kicked for years all over the internet. What happens when you give that stuff a home of it's own? I don't think anybody actually knows the answer to that question. It'll be fascinating finding it out.
It will certainly be interesting to see what the definition of quality becomes here.
Well, if we get this right, most groups should have their own, with some commonalities up and down their hierarchies. If the quality systems hold up, they'll work on any content - the mechanism doesn't know the difference, it's just responding to humans making judgement calls by voting and tagging.
Perhaps we could nest all adult topics under ~nsfw? It could be an explicitly opt-in community from the start with the standard "check here if you're over 18" pop-up before people can subscribe. Maybe have a profile setting indicating whether people want to see NSFW content that may be posted in other ~ such as ~creative.
Typo, or..?
Yes, definitely a typo! Thanks for looking out!
I don't know if everything adult should be under a ~nsfw topic, given that other types of things are often labeled nsfw on reddit.
Oh, I agree with you. I just mean that primarily NSFW subtildes could be at ~nsfw.sex, ~nsfw.bdsm, etc. Stuff labeled NSFW in other ~ could still exist. However, there should be a filter for people who don't want to see it.
I, for one, hate the “nsfw” tag.
Not that there is anything wrong with flagging porn, gore, etc. etc., but that it falls under this weird catch-all misnomer “Not Safe For Work”. I think NSFW is just a buzzword – it carries no actual meaning other than effectively being “censored”. And in practice NSFL is just a tag for “NSFW, but more so, and it’s most likely gore”.
I’m all for flagging nudity, gore, and any other material you may want to filter as a user. But catching it all under this esoteric “your boss might be (more) pissed off, if they catch you looking at this (than if they catch you playing games at work)” is, honestly, bullshit.
And if this is because of the kids, right now the ToS don’t allow for anyone below 13 to join anyway, so that argument is mostly moot as well (let’s not pretend that any kind of censorship will keep kids between 13 and 18 from getting to porn :P). The future is still unknown and therefore it might happen that in the future we will have kids here on Tildes, and if this is the case, it does make sense to tend to our community gardens beforehand with that in mind as well.
I would instead propose use of more descriptive flags, e.g.:
Personally, I would probably have enabled nudity (spent many childhood summers in nudist camps, so a naked body is just as well a person to me as a clothed one) and profanity (hell, I can swear like a sailor and take it as well), but would very much like to be warned if content is of sexual or violent type. I can very much imagine other would have a very different combination as preference.
What about anime communities that are based on content that is adult? FATE is a show that's literally based on a porn videogame.
Would the content that's adult go into a group for that show or into the catch all nsfw?
You'd need subgroups within nsfw at the very least. But I can see this getting horribly messy very quickly.
What do we do when the inevitable happens and a highly memed sex scene from game of thrones happens? It will be posted. People will want to talk about it. People will want to talk about very VERY specific details of it, such as the length of someone's sausage. This will include screenshots of said sausage and attempts to measure it against what can be referenced in the scene for size. Where does that go? TV? A specific GoT group? The nsfw group?
It's going to cause problems.
First, nsfw stands for nsfw not adult, porn, graphic, or disturbing. it can be used as a synonym but you can't re-interpret it even further. Second, the suggestion refers to groups not individual submissions.
As such, if a group is neither primarily generating nsfw content nor focused on the nsfw part of their submissions, there is no reason to place them there. For instance, a discussion-only group for sex workers would not fall under that category.
As for your example, unless you'll find a normal group that allows such posts, you will simply present it to a nsfw group.
That's a poor interpretation of nsfw - Not Safe For Work.
Things that are not safe for work extend much much further than that. It is much better for us to individually label a submission nsfw rather than to quarantine all nsfw content away from the significant community it is part of. Reddit's approach to nsfw is appropriate in this particular context.#
There are plenty of text-only discussions that are NSFW. VERY NSFW.
You should re-read what I said. Reddit does interpret the term exactly like I explained.
There is a big difference between referring to adult content as nsfw, and using nsfw synonymously to adult content in another unrelated context. The latter is semantically not valid form of usage.
I also didn't say there shouldn't be any individual flagging. Actually, I only rephrased what op said, I didn't offer any opinion.
You would only push a big bulk of nsfw content into a discrete group. Considering the limited parent-child sorting of tildes groups, it's a possible option to simplify the overview.
Yes, please. I fully support banning pornographic videos and images.
I don't think it should be quite as black-and-white as that. The second quote in @Deimos's comment explains pretty well what I think should be done: discussion and relevant media allowed, but media posted for the purpose of gratification and not as part of a larger discussion shouldn't be allowed, IMO.
I disagree. The problem you have with this is that some communities out there that are mostly sfw also occasionally crossover with totally pornographic content - and the userbase consuming the content likes it that way.
If Tildes is going to grow it must provide value to users. If it is going to do that and retain people then it must provide MORE value to users for the interests that they have than the other places that they can consume those interests.
Example? Anime. In fact, anime is sometimes questionably pornographic itself, the entire genre of true ecchi shows would get killed by a complete ban on pornography. FATE (https://i.imgur.com/YB3k8rv.jpg), an incredibly popular show that tops /r/anime for weeks whenever a season releases, is literally based on an eroge - a porn videogame. Another example? Parts of the FGC (fighting game community).
If you get too strong on content you are going to completely lose entire groups of entertainment interests that crossover with it. If you lose entire groups of entertainment interests then people with those interests will stay where they are for those interests.
Anime and fgc users will stay where their interest is catered to better, which is where their communities are moderated well by people that understand the content and audience as opposed to Tildes enacting a sitewide content rule.
You know this better than anyone Deimos - Communities moderated by people that understand firmly what the audience wants are going to make better rules for that community than people that know nothing about the content this audience is consuming.
Later on if/when you start allowing people to make groups there will be groups for shows like /r/konosuba, a comedy. A very good comedy. Which is also FULL of sex jokes, and as such the community is full of sex content and some of that is pornographic. Would the current top post be considered pornographic here? It might be. It features a pantyless upskirt, which is frequent in the show.
Then there's... Television? Movies? What about movies that feature highly pornographic scenes? Game of Thrones? Pornographic GoT scenes have regularly hit top/all in multiple subreddits and spawned genuinely good/interesting content.
I think you should allow it. Huge swathes of entertainment content will be affected in adverse ways otherwise.
Leaving out all the crusty content you just described in this thread would provide exponentially more value to me as a user than accommodating it, especially given the site’s vision of prioritizing high quality discussion. GoT genital measurements and anime sex jokes are not that, and TV/movie sex scenes virtually never hit the top of the relevant mainstream SFW subreddits (e.g. /r/gameofthrones, /r/television, /r/movies, etc.). /r/watchitfortheplot doesn’t count.
Reddit already provides a home to every single niche NSFW/pornographic interest and then some - let them carry that mantle rather than compromising the vision for the site and recreating it here.
For every single thing Tildes says "But that already has a home in x" a massive amount of users are entirely alienated.
I don't think this vision will work for the long term. Taking the puritan stance that you don't want anime fans to discuss an anime that you have decided is pornographic while not being an anime fan is really not a good way to make any site endearing or loveable to people. What it will do is make consumers of that content, who talk about it in exceptionally high quality, highly analytical, highly detailed ways, think that the site is just a bunch of assholes.
If a site says "I disagree with what you think is high quality" to something as beloved and obsessive to fans as the shows they want to talk about then those fans are going to say "I disagree with that entire website and don't want to use it".
They won't just go to the other place you're saying they should go to for their one type of content. They will go there for all content because the other site has fundamentally upset them with its judgement of what they want to discuss. The entire group is permanently alienated for all site usage by the decision. Not just sent somewhere else for one type of content.
I'm perfectly okay with Tildes saying "This is hate speech and should fuck off."
I'm not okay with Tildes judging what people should and should not talk about. Not on a sitewide basis. Let the consumers of that content vote on it. Those voting in an Anime group will vote episode discussions to the top, and occasionally episodes will be highly sexualised, fanservice exists. The anime consumers themselves will differentiate with what is good nsfw content to vote for and what is not. They won't vote all of it up all the time. But completel disallowing it is a serious mistake and will result in the site being out-of-touch with many many audiences and how their consumption of their entertainment operates.
So? This site isn't motivated by profit or beholden to accommodating every single interest. If it alienates users, then it alienates users. In fact, the implicit intention of ~ is to alienate certain kinds of users (and related content).
What you are describing and what is reality are two different things. Nothing about these comments or these comments is "exceptionally high quality, highly analytical, [and] highly detailed". How about the top post of all time in /r/anime with FATE in the title? That isn't even thinly veiled eroticism.
Is that what happened when reddit banned /r/fatpeoplehate? Or any of these subreddits? Was there a mass exodus that crippled the site? What about individuals who use 4chan or other chans to see content banned on reddit? Are all of them using that other site exclusively, or do they spend time on both? Do you think everyone who went over to voat stays on voat? Were they really "permanently alienated for all site usage"?
How about these comments? Here's a pornographic discussion, linking directly to multiple porn games prominently featuring porn in the links, in the subreddit that Deimos founded.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/5kxuqg/thoughts_on_the_current_porn_game_scene_nsfw/?utm_content=comments&utm_medium=front&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Games
Discussion topics can and do exist for pornographic content that are of value. Disallowing links to pornographic content will fundamentally stop discussion of that content as well, at the very least create a chilling effect.
The /r/anime community is ridiculously well moderated and absolutely chock-full of high quality content. It is the anime equivalent of /r/games and fundamentally has all the principles Deimorz had when starting /r/games. The anime consumers LIKE artists. They watch anime in part for art. The comment section there features the original artist of the content, it features people discussing direct critique of the art itself, it also features a bunch of moronic comments BUT those comments would ideally be moderated out in a site like Tildes like they would be in /r/games so you can essentially ignore them for the purpose of judging value anyway.
It's original art though, being posted by the artist themselves. You might not like it but that's exceptionally high-effort content within its community. Non-original art in /r/anime requires posting multiple images in an "effort" post which reduces the amount of karma point farming significantly.
Offtopic - Where can I find a formatting explanation for Tildes? Are links here just the same as reddit? Is it documented anywhere?
The ~ text formatting/syntax doc was actually merged last night and can now be found on the docs page: https://docs.tildes.net/text-formatting
p.s. thanks again to @flaque for doing it. <3
Quick reply: yes, the site uses markdown formatting like reddit.
AFAIK it uses the CommonMark variation of MarkDown, which IMHO seems a sensible choice, as its aim is to become a de facto modern standard of MarkDown.
There is a very useful quick guide for it, as well as the full specifications, if you’re interested in that.
The site's goal is to prioritise hight quality content, not have it exclusively. Or must every post be highly analytical and in-depth?
Well, a site that allows no whimsy at all should be interesting in itself. To be fair though, tilde is meant to be different from other sites, and if we can get a site full of only quality content at the expense of in-community jokes, that would be a worthwhile compromise.
You're being a bit disingenuous if you're equating porn to R-rated television and movies. It is perfectly possible to ban porn without in any way limiting all these discussions about sex jokes or sex on 'Game of Thrones' that you're so worried about.
For one thing, it's possible to ban the images but not the discussions. If you need to talk about a sex joke in 'Konosuba', go for it. If you want to discuss a sex scene in 'Fate', go for it. If you have a desire to start a thread about the latest fucking in 'Game of Thrones', go for it. But... none of these discussions require you to post an NSFW image.
For another thing, porn is all about context. Television shows and cinematic movies are not porn, even if they contain nudity and sex scenes.
None do. But they will contain them nonetheless. Users will post them, users will be banned for posting them, this will equate to "don't talk about that topic" in the userbase.
The effect is chilling. It will stop nonetheless.
First time I've seen Fate written in all-caps.
No idea why I did that. Too busy thinking about the topic perhaps!
I'd rather not have weird stuff like BDSM even in discussion. There are countless other places for that and I think it would be good to have a Reddit style website untainted by lust. It's just annoying to deal with unless you conceal yourself in a bubble.
IMO there's always going to be topics that some people are uncomfortable with, and a robust self-filtering system is better than censoring for everyone.
There's plenty of places for porn tho, just saying.
You're mixing up something like BDSM with straight up "porn".
Now I don't want to be blunt but that's quite the bigot generalisation that also imply that for you people that want to talk about BDSM as going to be there just for lust.
It's on the same level of a BDSM friendly user saying that straight vanilla porn is for sad boring repressed people (most common attack I've seen).
A HUGE portion, of even say the most of it, of the BDSM approach is happening on a psychological level. Not on a physical level.
I don't fucking care, all of it can go and stay go.
Oh well, this is just the kind of reply i want to see here.
Hatred and closing up to discussing.
Counting the days to the fully working ban & trust system.
You can't wait to ban me, is that what you mean? Weird.
The fact that you don't even know how it will works says a lot about your sincere interest in this community.
Don't be so serious, it's just a forum.
How is discussion of something like BDSM or some other kind of sex-related subject porn?
While we're at it, can we PLEASE not name the picture subs (topic)-Porn hurr durr what a stupid idea that was.
Seriously. On reddit there's /r/animalporn, and even /r/humanporn. Neither of which are NSFW, but I can't pull them up at work anyway because then there's something with "porn" in the URL.
I despise the r/****Porn naming convention.
I have held a one user, incredibly ineffective, boycott of the SFWporn network for years.
If it helps I've done the same and enough people doing a one person boycott kinda works.
How dare you censor me.
Banning the discussion of kink, or "weird" stuff as you describe it, is pretty limiting to genuine discussion. I would not back this site if that was policy.
Also describing lust as "taint" is fairly puritanical, is it not? Is that what we're going for here?
Nah, I think there's a lot of other places for some porn or adult discussion is all. Pornhub, Fetlife, various collector's forums, Skyrim picture groups, any chat app, so many places. The limit you mention is a matter of perspective. Though I wonder if you back adult websites already with your money? (I don't pay for porn lol)
I think fetish is weird and it gets annoying. Also taint is a great word. >:(
This argument works for anything anyone thinks is weird or annoying. You don't have to subscribe to hypothetical ~kink.
I would back (financially support via patreon) tildes if it supported sex work, sex positive discussion, and was a welcoming space for the "weird". I do that in other places; I don't see why this should be an exception.
Exactly. And ~kink doesn't have to exist at all. There is no ultimate need for inclusion.
Do you mean this place could have a forum for prostitutes to work out of as a kind of support? Just a forum? Because if you want to support hookers you can donate to them directly.
I mean, it's a free website. Deimos doesn't have to include anything or allow any discussion. I just think it would be ethically wrong to ban NSFW discussion.
Also, you're either intentionally using terms to be inflammatory or ignorant that there's A. Proper terms to use and B. More than one kind of sex worker. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.
I'm suggesting that tildes can have NSFW categories, some of which could be for sex workers to discuss the industry, their rights, whatever. As for it being a place for their work- I said in another post, if we allow one kind of creative or self promotion why not the others? If a smut author wants to post and share their work, shouldn't they be as welcome as any other creative?
There's more types of support than financial support. Being welcomng to sex workers is something that is actually rare- especially with FOSTA/SESTA right now. https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/11/fosta-sesta-silencing-sex-workers/
I don't think there's anything wrong with the word prostitute. My posts are creative works you know.
That seems awfully closed minded. ~kink doesn't have to exist, but it could and if it did you wouldn't / shouldn't be forced upon it. Also there's nothing wrong with "a forum for prostitutes to work out of". If it's civil and (probably preferably) private/anonymous, then what harm is there in that?
I never said there was something wrong with it, I was asking if that's what was meant by support for prostitutes. Now with that out of the way yeah, that's a fucked up kind of service to have IMO.
A lot of places do what tildes do, don't you think? The point of this site as I take it is to do it better, both from the point of view of quality and from that of privacy and security.
I don't think shaming @seila on his/her supporting adult websites is in any way on the spirit of this site by the way.
Okay.
Not exactly what I wanted to be my first comment haha, but I don't see why straight up banning porn would be necessary. Having a ~nsfw group with subdivisions for the various types of ~nsfw (very similar to the tags described in the logs) and having the entire group tagged nsfw by default would be a simple enough solution, I think. While I know a big focus is community, and I support that, this site also describes itself as a link aggregator, and it's more than fair to say that nsfw content fits into that.
"If you don't want to see it, don't look", while a vast oversimplification, I know, should probably apply here.
The issue I have seen in most picture based nsfw communities is a complete lack of depth to the conversation. Why should a link aggregator attempt to emulate an old pictures/thumbnails porn site. If you read through any of the picture only subreddits, most of the replies are some form of “who is this/you are hot/i like this” and it feels like the goal here is to have conversations around content. imho pure porn doesn’t inspire conversations, just private actions.
Yes, subs like r/RealGirls or r/PornInFifteenSeconds have pretty much no discussion and aren't ideal communities to have for a site like this. They aren't the only porn subs. r/Yiff is pure porn by any definition, yet brings people together because it's also artwork. I find r/JOBuds totally strange and creepy, but at least they're bonding over something, and they do pretty actively discuss their porn. Groups like that, while not ones that I would participate in, do exist, and shouldn't be shunned because we dislike their content; if we don't want to see it, we don't have to join the group.
For the longest time, pornographic content was technically disallowed on reddit per the user agreement. Content that appealed to "prurient interests" iirc was the phrasing. Despite this, the site was overflowing the pornography. I wasn't around in the very very early days of the site, but i wonder when the first porn content was submitted, and if the community even noticed and said it was okay, or if it just kind of grew under the radar initially. I mean, i assume most people never read the agreement so maybe it wasn't actually something the admins or users cared about, but tossed in there because lawyers said they should.
Perhaps in "adult" communities there can be a mechanism to allow for images and other content but in the narrow scope of the discussion at hand?
Very much so … even the US Supreme Court, famously, had issues defining what is obscenity and hard-core porn:
… and, with all due respect to the collective intelligence gathered herein, I doubt we will be able to get much closer to a usable definition. Especially since the US Supreme Court, truth be told, had an easier task at hand than we do – it only had to apply the limitation to one legal system and one culture, while here on the world wide web, we have to deal with (dozens of) dozens.
I don't like absolutes, but "Just go to Reddit instead" should pretty much never be used as a reason not to add something here. If the goal is to be to Reddit as Reddit was to Digg, as I assume it is, wouldn't filling all its uses be a goal, not a negative?
I disagree entirely. Reddit does a lot of things very well like low-effort, instant gratification, garbage content. And the redesign is clearly focused on encouraging even more of that crap, so I say let them have it.
Read the blog post and the overall goals "In-depth content (primarily text-based) is the most important" section at the bottom. Does that sound like the intent is to replace reddit entirely when/if an exodus happens? IMO it doesn't.
I think it's pretty clear ~ is a reddit alternative but not intended to be a wholesale reddit replacement. Hence the discussion on whether fluff should be allowed here and @deimos' statement at the top of this very comments section about why he is leaning towards not allowing porn either.
I don't think the primary goal of Tildes should be to copy Reddit, and that's not what I meant to say (totally see how it reads that way though, haha). What I mean is that it should be able to bring over many of the same groups while growing community involvement within these groups. It may sound strange, but community can be built over porn (r/yiff comes to mind, as does the arguably far stranger <r/JOBros> EDIT: r/JOBuds). I absolutely agree that high-quality, community-based content should be a focus, and I love that, but discussion is not the sole aspect of a community.
I don't disagree but this is a discussion based site. @deimos has already said discussion on sexuality and sexual fetishes is something he would be fine with. However groups centered around submitting porn itself is another matter though. There are significant legal responsibilities that go along with that and ones that ~ is not yet financially or staffing-wise equipped to handle... nor may ever be. We shall have to wait and see.
Not sure why the financial aspect of it never came to my mind to be perfectly honest, that's actually a huge angle to consider. I totally agree that pure porn with no community should be kept to other places, but the line is very blurry, and that's my concern.
I also agree there... it can be very blurry, as can "what is art vs porn vs fluff (cat pics/memes)?", "don't be an asshole", etc... but it's something @deimos is just going to have to make a call on eventually and then we shall see what the users think about it.
Judgment on a case-by-case basis is really the only option here, and while I do trust deimos to make the right decisions here, I shouldn't have to. People trusted kn0thing and spez too, and I think I'm right to be cautious despite how much I'd like to have faith. Community involvement is equally finicky, as democracy is rarely filled with well-studied bodies, so I'm not exactly sure what steps to take, and I'm sure deimos feels at least somewhat similarly.
Reddit was created with profit in mind, they took VC to start right out of the gate, sold to Condé Nast as soon as they could and have only continued to take more VC and more VC... and now they're probably prepping for an IPO. ~ is a Canadian Not-for-profit Corporation and can't legally do any of those things.
Yes, the non-profit aspect makes me more willing to put my trust into it, but a non-profit is not a charity, so profit is still absolutely a possibility (it's always bothered me how untrue the name "non-profit" is) since you pay yourself whatever you want, not sure how it works in Canada.
Deimos is taking every step he can to show us he cares about the platform first, but I'm a naturally paranoid person 😛
https://docs.tildes.net/faq#why-is-tildes-a-non-profit-and-not-a-charity
And yes, the laws for non-profits in Canada are significantly more strict than in the US. @deimos cannot just pay himself whatever he wants (the median salary for non-profit CEOs in Canada is $100k/yr), there is strict legal requirements for record keeping and financial disclosure and all profits must be reinvested back into the non-profit to further its aims, goals and projects. See more here: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-7.75/
I was expecting Canadian law to make more sense than US law, as it generally does, haha. I know about the difficulty of becoming a charity up there, though, I've already read the docs. Regardless, I still try to remain at least a little skeptical, no matter how unnecessary it is sometimes. I appreciate you trying to comfort me about it though :)
We have all had our hearts broken before. So I understand. :)
Which is where the line between nsfw discussion and porn should be drawn, as the latter is low-effort and instant gratification.
There's a million and one places to find porn/NSFW content.
Personally, I would shed no tears of tildes was not one of those places. I can see a ~art type community making a case for nsfw content though
That'd be the difference between porn and artistic nudity, I suppose.
I do think that because the entire point of Tildes is to foster deep conversations between people that it's probably for the best to ban porn here. I mean, go to the porn website of your choice and take a look at the comments on the videos. Sure, have adult group were people can talk about such things.
That being said, I do wonder where exactly we should draw the line. Ban pictures and videos sure, but what about erotic literature? What if people post questions like on AskReddit about sex and people describe their experiences; would that count as pornography?
I would say the ask reddit discussion wouldn't be porn at all. Also discussions like r/sex would surley fit the conversation side of things. Not sure about the erotic lit though.
Personally, this feels like an odd conversation to have. I honestly think that making a blanket statement that NSFW content has does not help create a good community is really limiting what this site can become. Good points have been made on both sides, but I feel like this can turn into a slippery slope real fast. Since Deimos
mentioned filtering functionality, why wouldn't we just filter out content we don't wish to participate in? I feel like this place has some great potential, and could really grow from having an open mind.
Edit: I don't know how to link people yet...
You can link users with @, e.g. @Vibe. Eventually that will actually ping the user.
To not be censored should mean porn, pro or amateur, or anything along those lines should be allowed. I'm all for ditching gore or watchpeopledie, but nudity is a part of life that I think everyone enjoys (except for uptight religious people (and crius) and let's be honest, they all like their porn as well).
It's not about censorship, it's about seeing it correlated with the main directive of Tildes.
It foster discussion? If yes, it will not be removed. If not, it will be. It's very simple.
Post of a "vagina in 4K" really don't foster that much of a discussion.
Unless you want to talk about how someone like me would find that just vulgar more than arousing? But if you want to discuss the subtle declination of what is sensual and arousing and what not, you don't need to post a picture like that, no?
I don't think we should have porn here. Non-porn NSFW content might be OK. I'm not against porn, or WTF-type stuff, but I don't think it's what we should focus on. Tildes was created in part to focus on text content over photos or videos, and porn is pretty much porn and videos. They won't foster good discussion in the comments, just like animal photos. In either case the comments are pretty much only "Nice ass" or "I'd like to pet that."
I know of a torrent site that decided to disallow porn at the onset, and it's generally been a good decision. It's kept the focus on their core content.
In my mind, Tildes will start to take away some of reddit's user base over time. But Tildes goal isn't to be the next reddit, it's to be a better site than reddit. Let reddit keep the fluff, the memes, and the porn. Clearly it's what reddit wants to become. That lowest common denominator stuff will attract people who aren't interested in more meaningful discussions and content and deflect them from coming to Tildes. This could make administration and moderation here a bit easier. "We don't do that at Tildes. Might I suggest you visit reddit?"
What torrent site?
That's like asking someone how many sexual partners they've had.
I don't have a problem with nudity, especially where biology and art are concerned. The human body is gross but fascinating, and nature is often the same. I'm also fine with talking about sex and sexuality, as I think that has a lot of potential for fostering community, discussion and learning.
Porn can be found in so many places, and tends to be either a solitary thing or something done with intimate partner(s). I don't see it being something that fosters community or discussion.
I think nsfw content would be a great thing to have here, though there should be categories of communities:
Required communities would require consent on a one-time alert that appears when visiting the ~community. Allowed communities would require consent to view each post, unless specifies otherwise in user settings.
NSFW forbidden communities would still have a tickbox for NSFW, but if a post is attempted while the box is ticked it will say "no NSFW is allowed here" or something.
As for no porn - totally agree. This should be a discussion oriented site, and porn is just a view-pusher. There's no reason to have porn on tildes unless there's some sort of real discussion that could be made from it.
tl;dr NSFW content is good - not all stuff is okay to look at at work. Porn shouldn't really be here as it doesn't drive discussions.
I don't oppose the idea of disallow linking porn but I would like to have something like gonewild where people can post their own content.
I'd like to understand how seeing a user of tildes naked, with the clear intent of arouse the viewer, would foster a meaningful discussion.
So the oc user can interact with its viewerbase? Some exhibitionists like to be seen naked and likes comments from other people.
Considering tildes is built around quality content as its priority, I'd say it's enough of a reason to not allow that already.
If you want to please your ego, there is still reddit, facebook, twitter, etc etc.
Mhm, not banned. Definitely not supported.
If the community read the announcement (that I keep saying it's a manifest), it would also know not to vote those kind of topic.
You might want to give this a read:
https://tildes.net/~tildes/jz/daily_tildes_discussion_why_should_we_allow_or_not_allow_fluff_content
Have you looked at any GW posts comment sections? 99% of the comments are less than 5 words and virtually none of them are quality or promote further discussion other than occasionally getting a "Thanks" from the OP. The same goes for comments on porn sites and the various porn subreddits.
What do you see as a distinguishing factor between user content and non-user links?
OC like gonewild can make a good community, some people post it for money, some are exhibitionist just because they like it, sometime, art creator even have nsfw stuff in their form of art. If we ever create an art community, will we prohibit posting art that contains naked people?
While linking porn from outside just make it become a porn aggregator and we have plenty of place for this and there is usually no discussion.
my 2 cents would have to be regarding your self-labelling as a link aggregate. yes, many nsfw subs and subsequent posts are just links with no commentary, but i dont find that entirely unexpected on a site selling itself as a link aggregate.
as others have mentioned, sometimes its nice for a community to come together and aggregate links they like, including porn, with little or no discussion
with the roadmap of serious categorization and meta filtering, this shouldn't be a difficult decision
Even if ~ was labeling itself as only a link aggregator with no other stated goals (which it is not), I still wouldn't agree with you that "this shouldn't be a difficult decision." There is also the legal responsibility aspects to consider with allowing the sharing of pornographic material on the site. ~ is a Canadian Not-for-profit Corporation and as such would need to be compliant with Canadian law regarding non-profits and the hosting of said materials. It will also have to comply with Canadian copyright laws and the take down processes here. All of which require legal council and significant manpower to do.
fair enough. i guess it's a matter of goals... penguins must have their islands
https://docs.tildes.net/faq#why-is-tildes-a-non-profit-and-not-a-charity
And above and beyond that, Non-profits in Canada have legal obligations for record keeping and financial transparency that regular LLCs do not and AFAIK they also cannot take on any investors since all profits must, by law, be reinvested back into the organization to further its aims and projects.
Yep... just like AGPLv3 preventing the source from ever being closed up again and sold off later, being a Non-profit in Canada is a legal commitment/obligation to stick to the founding principles.
yin & yang, baby! :P Similar end goals, opposite approaches.
Are we going to allow creatives to post their work on here? If so, sex workers and smut authors should be allowed to participate. Otherwise, this community is already starting off on the wrong foot.
I agree
Ban porn unless it involves elves please.
I have to disagree slightly. I have seen great nsfw subreddits that were a community because they felt free and closer to each other.
My main problem with that type of content on reddit is that porn subs and a lot of SFW picture/video/gif centric subreddits are overrun by karmafarming spambots, as it's such a cheap and easy way to gain lots of karma quickly.
The amount of these low effort shitposts, which immensely dilute the signal to noise ratio on reddit, is one of the main reasons I've been looking for an alternative like Tildes.
I'm all for discussions on these topics or allowing artsy content, but I don't really care for the rest. IMHO it attracts the wrong kind of users and cheapens the user experience.
I think on ~ any trust gained by spamming images or porn would stay within that group (or maybe even subgroup), so it wouldn't have as much reach or impact as karma farmed the same way. (I'm not arguing for porn, since either way I'll be filtering out those subgroups, but I find the proposed mechanics interesting~)
I think its touchy, but what i would suggest is that it be with context. Firstly, to stop spam and stright porn archives, require the posting to be from either the photographer with legal rights to the photo, or the model with legal rights to the photo.
Second the context, Porn and nude posing are without context the exact same thing, having context is important. a person within a photography or videography group may well have nude models, and may want feedback or showing of their work or to start a discussion with something. Thats different then just flatly porn.
I think wanting to avoid porn for porn's sake is reasonable without censorship due to legal concerns, but i do not think it would be healthy to disallow nudity, even for the sake of it being nudity, within the context of an artist shearing his work. And i understand that is a very thin line and one that can be easily abused, but that is after all the necessary evil of free speech.
I agree with the direction mentioned in OPs post and commented by another user. (I.e. BDSM thread, but not just an aggregator for BDSM porn, rather a discussions channel etc).
I was a fan of Gonewild. I could see arguments for and against it. But curious what people think
I'd like to see an absence of porn on Tildes, but accommodation for NSFW content that's not porn (and I don't care much to debate the distinction because I think it's mostly obvious and the few cases where it's questionable aren't worth derailing a discussion over the fundamental policy).
There are people who I won't even refer to reddit because it's fairly hard to browse there for any period of time without running across porn unintentionally. It's a turn off for people who would rather not see it for various reasons (not interested, opposed to it, don't want it to show up on their screen at work, etc.). There are plenty of places on the Internet to go for porn. It's got to be the most serviced "special interest" on the entire Internet. I can't imagine Tildes being able to offer something unique that can't already be found on various other sites which are dedicated to porn. But Tildes could offer a porn-free experience, and I think there's value in that.