I know people don’t want to give credence to the idea that people stopped watching the show after it became “woke.” I personally stopped watching after Comer became Doctor because the writing was...
I know people don’t want to give credence to the idea that people stopped watching the show after it became “woke.” I personally stopped watching after Comer became Doctor because the writing was noticeably worse.
I read a comment once a couple of years ago that might seem adjacent to the “woke” stuff but which I think might have some reasoning. Doctor Who had a large female audience, but they didn’t actually want to be the doctor, they wanted to be the companion or in other words they wanted to date the doctor. So when the doctor became a woman that took away that wish fulfillment. I think that issue still took place with Gatwa’s casting. An equivalent the other way around would be Tomb Raider, men who like Laura Croft don’t want to be her, they’re just attracted to her.
It’s perhaps why we will never see James Bond, a male fantasy fulfillment character, be a woman.
This is why all the woke arguments annoy me. It's used by idiots who probably never even watched the show to attack it, but i've also seen it used by people who want to defend the noticeable drop...
This is why all the woke arguments annoy me. It's used by idiots who probably never even watched the show to attack it, but i've also seen it used by people who want to defend the noticeable drop in writing quality. I have straight up been called horrible things because pointing out that the writing quality declined (and had already been doing so) means I just hate women.
I don't think it's a secret to anyone that the writing has been and continues to be the problem with recent Dr. Who seasons. Worse I feel that like other media it's using the diversity as a shield against criticism, much like my previous example (not as bad as some, but it's certainly there).
Plenty of people i've talked to thought Jodie was a great Doctor when she was allowed to be the doctor, but mostly felt like she wasn't being given the same writing quality and moments as the previous doctors. I gave up on that season, but with the discussions i've seen around the show i'm not really surprised that poor writing still plagues it.
I know it's hip to blame "the wokeness," but IMO the real answer is that Dr. Who has always been propped up by Moffat and Davies doing the writing. And they were running out of steam by the time...
I know it's hip to blame "the wokeness," but IMO the real answer is that Dr. Who has always been propped up by Moffat and Davies doing the writing. And they were running out of steam by the time #12 came around IMO.
The first season of #13 (Jodie Whittikar) had solid viewership and audience appreciation. Better than the prior few seasons. But it wasn't enough to stem how the series has been fundamentally been running out of steam for years now....especially once Moffat and Davies stopped being deeply involved.
I stopped watching when it became woke - not because it became woke but rather because it kept hamfisting it horribly. The episode with Rosa parks left a terrible taste in my mouth. One screaming...
I stopped watching when it became woke - not because it became woke but rather because it kept hamfisting it horribly.
The episode with Rosa parks left a terrible taste in my mouth. One screaming ”I’m doing this because I support BLM” while at the same time cheapening a massive moment for black history by pretending it’s all thanks to the Doctor.
And this had been a trend before. I never liked the whole premise of the Van Gogh episode for example, but at least that one felt incredibly emotional whereas the Rosa Parks one just felt gross.
The doctor being female never bothered me either; but leaning hard into the politics of it .. just massively detracted from the show.
Moffat should have never been a main writer. I remember being so excited at the idea of him becoming a lead and it just set DW on a massive downwards trend of flanderization. The “woke” stuff is just the absurd end of it.
I definitely agree that Moffat's tenure as showrunner was marked by a sharp decrease in the quality of the show's writing that mostly just continued to get worse (which is why I stopped watching...
I definitely agree that Moffat's tenure as showrunner was marked by a sharp decrease in the quality of the show's writing that mostly just continued to get worse (which is why I stopped watching quite a long time ago now). That said, most of the new bad writing is not Moffat's fault, as he stepped down after the 10th series iirc. I'm not sure whether the Chibnall series were all that much better, as I'd been checked out for a while by that point.
Overall I think "wokeness" is orthogonal to the problems with the show's writing that are actually turning people off. The hamfisted stuff has been there in series with white male actors playing The Doctor, and I think it's much more about the quality of the writing of the episodes surrounding that and how consistent it is than it is about whether the subject matter is "woke" or not.
At this point I'd like to recommend The Fall of Doctor Who. Despite the title, it's an extremely analytic deep dive into Chibnall's series', in good faith and giving credit where possible. It's...
I'm not sure whether the Chibnall series were all that much better, as I'd been checked out for a while by that point.
At this point I'd like to recommend The Fall of Doctor Who. Despite the title, it's an extremely analytic deep dive into Chibnall's series', in good faith and giving credit where possible. It's quite long but divided into chapters for your convenience.
Fwiw IMO, Ncuti is absolutely as attractive from the feminine gaze; he's the Doctor which gives a default level but he's also just hot. I've fallen off mostly because I've fallen off from nearly...
Fwiw IMO, Ncuti is absolutely as attractive from the feminine gaze; he's the Doctor which gives a default level but he's also just hot. I've fallen off mostly because I've fallen off from nearly all TV, but enjoyed his first season. Whether or not folks are being racist about it, or homophobic or something, idk. (His queerness is an asset in my eyes but the doctor's been bi for a while, I don't think that would actually turn people off... But maybe I'm wrong)
I do think it's probably an issue for a lot of straight women, if we take that theory as fact I think that he's visibly gay is surely a blow to that wish fulfillment. A recent, popular, gay man...
I do think it's probably an issue for a lot of straight women, if we take that theory as fact I think that he's visibly gay is surely a blow to that wish fulfillment. A recent, popular, gay man that a lot of women like is Jonathan Bailey who is more straight presenting.
I think a blow to this argument would be Capaldi, who is quite old to the point where I don't think he would have that level of attraction from women. Even in his first episode as the Doctor he tells Clara "I'm not your boyfriend" and says that was more to remind him than it was her. Because there was this obvious sexual tension between Clara and Matt's doctor that wasn't present with Capaldi.
Is it really though? Plenty of gay people are still considered sex symbols in the eyes of straight people of the opposite gender. E.g. Luke Evans, Wentworth Miller, Jodie Foster, Zaquiri Quinto,...
I think that he's visibly gay is surely a blow to that wish fulfillment
Is it really though? Plenty of gay people are still considered sex symbols in the eyes of straight people of the opposite gender. E.g. Luke Evans, Wentworth Miller, Jodie Foster, Zaquiri Quinto, Ricky Martin, Freddie Mercury, George Michael... the list goes on and on. Or, hell, even more relevant to this particular discussion, John Barrowman (Captain Jack Harkness in Dr Who and Torchwood).
If being "visibly gay" mattered that much to straight female audiences and to ratings, why did Torchwood do as well as it did for so long?
We can probably speculate all day long about the potential contributing factors which is leading to the viewership decline. However, I think it ultimately comes down to one basic fact... shows can...
We can probably speculate all day long about the potential contributing factors which is leading to the viewership decline. However, I think it ultimately comes down to one basic fact... shows can only go for so long before they inevitably run out of steam and people get tired of watching them.
At some point the show will probably get revitalized again, like it was in 2005/2006. But right now it's just in a bit of a lull because people are tired of seeing roughly the same themes and tropes get rehashed season after season. And IMO trying to blame it on "wokeness" or any related BS, like it being the fault of them casting a woman or openly queer person as the Doctor, is just right-wing propaganda.
I watched the show up until the first break. The show is really not that "woke" and the queer element is not at the forefront. It's just something that is kinda there, but it is not the subject of...
I watched the show up until the first break. The show is really not that "woke" and the queer element is not at the forefront. It's just something that is kinda there, but it is not the subject of the show. He's a really good Doctor. Some episodes were brilliant, some were quite boring, but I enjoyed them for the most part. You're right, we don't need to look for deep reasons for everything. It's a competitive market. Good shows fail all the time.
I've probably watched over 1/3 of the Dr Who episodes since the 2005 season. I tried watching them straight through for a while but some were just a complete waste of time so I started using an...
I've probably watched over 1/3 of the Dr Who episodes since the 2005 season. I tried watching them straight through for a while but some were just a complete waste of time so I started using an episode guide to skip the bad ones. I think Dr Who has the most uneven level of quality of any show I've seen. So when you say "some episodes were brilliant, some were quite boring..." that is just how the show has been for decades.
For real. It’s such an uneven show, and it’s probably more due to the household name-iness than the quality that it’s kept going so long in this incarnation
For real. It’s such an uneven show, and it’s probably more due to the household name-iness than the quality that it’s kept going so long in this incarnation
Lots of memorable shows are uneven. Stark Trek. The Twighlight Zone. Black Mirror, even. There is something to be said about shows that are allowed to take that kind of risk. They probably made...
Lots of memorable shows are uneven. Stark Trek. The Twighlight Zone. Black Mirror, even. There is something to be said about shows that are allowed to take that kind of risk.
They probably made more sense on network TV, though. Nowadays you watch a show from beginning to end, so that uneveness becomes clearer.
There's plenty of bad episodes of other shows, but Dr Who will have an absolute science fiction classic, that we talk about for years, followed by an episode where they basically just run away...
There's plenty of bad episodes of other shows, but Dr Who will have an absolute science fiction classic, that we talk about for years, followed by an episode where they basically just run away from someone in a rubber costume for 40 minutes.
I must make an aditional comment. I am, just now, watching the Capaldi era of Doctor Who. On its very fist episode, S08E01, I was delighted to see, as part of the main cast, a lesbian couple...
I must make an aditional comment. I am, just now, watching the Capaldi era of Doctor Who. On its very fist episode, S08E01, I was delighted to see, as part of the main cast, a lesbian couple (secretly married) in what appears to be Victorian England. One of them looks like a Reptilian.
That was in 2014, but I am sure I could come up with more examples if my memory was better. It seems to me that this show has been "woke" for a long time.
The character Captain Jack Harkness is very openly bisexual though. His introduction to the show is dancing and flirting, albeit as part of what he thinks is a business transaction, with Rose...
The character Captain Jack Harkness is very openly bisexual though. His introduction to the show is dancing and flirting, albeit as part of what he thinks is a business transaction, with Rose Tyler. Here's a video of the scene although the entire episode has things like this.
In Torchwood he's also shown to be bisexual, has children although for plot reasons their mum is gone. Bear in mind also that Torchwood was aimed at adults rather than families so most of the Doctor Who audience also never saw it.
The point was that he's a gay actor who's attractive /appealing to the straight female gaze. The Doctor is also flirting with Harkness in those episodes, he's explicitly bisexual (and gender...
The point was that he's a gay actor who's attractive /appealing to the straight female gaze. The Doctor is also flirting with Harkness in those episodes, he's explicitly bisexual (and gender fluid) and has been since before Ncuti.
In Wicked, Fiyero is flirting with all genders in "Dancing through Life," is played by a gay man, and straight women have been quite pleased.
Harkness's flirting with Rose is in fact part of why he's attractive to women, - kindness and attentiveness to the women he interacted with - is part of what makes someone appealing in the female gaze.
There's an ongoing internet fuss where straight men (particularly young, inexperienced ones) think women are just lying when they say they prefer a dad bod over, essentially, a man made of abs. And while women broadly do prefer the "dad bod" they also prefer men who don't call them liars when they say what they think. The appearance is one thing, the attitude is broadly more key. But especially when you're just enjoying a celebrity on TV, on a show where people don't really get naked regularly there's not a lot of daylight between Tennant and Gatwa.
Sometimes you realize there are people on the same internet as you who have very different experiences from you. Straight women are the majority target audience of an absolutely staggering amount...
I do think it's probably an issue for a lot of straight women, if we take that theory as fact I think that he's visibly gay is surely a blow to that wish fulfillment.
Sometimes you realize there are people on the same internet as you who have very different experiences from you.
Straight women are the majority target audience of an absolutely staggering amount of gay smut. And in my experience, even straight women who aren't into that typically have no problem finding gay men on TV attractive -- even the straight women I grew up with, who believed it was a sin, would cop to that.
As noted by other folks, queer men aren't generally a turn off for women, especially when they're being attentive and kind to said women. Barrowman is a good comparison for Ncuti. And Jonathan...
As noted by other folks, queer men aren't generally a turn off for women, especially when they're being attentive and kind to said women. Barrowman is a good comparison for Ncuti.
And Jonathan Bailey is very obviously queer IMO. Hell he's playing bisexual in Wicked and the universal opinion seemed to be how hot he was. I don't agree that he's particularly straight presenting outside of maybe bridgerton... (I haven't kept watching tbh) But regency attire by itself does a lot of the lifting there.
Honestly I think people are tired of RTD (and Moffat).
According to this, he was a sex symbol during his run. And I can definitely see it. When I first saw posters for the new season, I remember being disappointed that they were replacing Smith with...
I think a blow to this argument would be Capaldi, who is quite old to the point where I don't think he would have that level of attraction from women.
According to this, he was a sex symbol during his run. And I can definitely see it. When I first saw posters for the new season, I remember being disappointed that they were replacing Smith with some random older guy. But as soon as I saw him in action, I realized how perfect his was for the role. He has a presence that makes him stand out.
I haven't watched any doctor who since series 12. Having 3 companions that mostly just stood around asking questions for the doctor to answer did not make for good television. And the retcon to...
I haven't watched any doctor who since series 12. Having 3 companions that mostly just stood around asking questions for the doctor to answer did not make for good television. And the retcon to the doctor's history not just being a regular time lord that stole a TARDIS took away a lot of the charm for me.
Has anyone who has watched since then found the show to get better or still be worth watching?
I love Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, but I don't think she ever got a good season. Ncuti Gatwa has been great so far, and while the plots are a little less sci-fi than previous seasons, the...
I love Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, but I don't think she ever got a good season. Ncuti Gatwa has been great so far, and while the plots are a little less sci-fi than previous seasons, the writing is at much the same level—for better and worse—as most of nu-Who.
I thought the currently airing season was good enough that I'm pretty surprised to see headlines about the ratings dropping.
Doctor Who was a British cultural phenomenon for decades, but like with a lot of things, the death of analog television crippled its ability to make such an impact again. It's still popular today,...
Doctor Who was a British cultural phenomenon for decades, but like with a lot of things, the death of analog television crippled its ability to make such an impact again. It's still popular today, but it's been running off of old momentum and a cult following for a long time now. I think its end has been long approaching; personally I'm hoping they can stick the landing and end it well when the time comes, rather than drag it on and on until they have no choice.
I've always been fascinated by the culture around TV programming in the UK during the 80's and 90's, where it wasn't uncommon for literally 30% of the country or more to be tuned into a channel at once. This has created an incredibly homogenous cultural memory of the time that I don't think could ever possibly happen again. If you were from Cornwall you might have next to nothing in common with someone from Aberdeen, but you could be sure that they'd seen a few episodes of Only Fools and Horses, and that's a connection right there. I wonder if having those common experiences is part of what make British culture at the time so open and friendly, and if part of the reason why so many today are hostile and tribalistic (around the world really, not just in the UK) is that we all effectively live in our own algorithmically-generated worlds now.
I love Doctor Who. I also absolutely adore Ncuti Gatwa. I have not watched a single episode of Gatwa's Doctor because in the US I'd have to pay for Disney+ to see him, which is just too expensive...
I love Doctor Who. I also absolutely adore Ncuti Gatwa. I have not watched a single episode of Gatwa's Doctor because in the US I'd have to pay for Disney+ to see him, which is just too expensive for me.
I feel like the effect of restrictions of the new (c.2022, I think) streaming contract on viewership is more significant than you see in articles about the show's popularity.
My take is that the show became more fantasy than Sci-Fi, and the writers are simply too burned writing it, kinda like the Simpsons, I quit the show halfway with Capaldi, personally I disliked how...
My take is that the show became more fantasy than Sci-Fi, and the writers are simply too burned writing it, kinda like the Simpsons, I quit the show halfway with Capaldi, personally I disliked how he was the center of attention and basically had no rules that he could not break (example), as compared to other previous doctors like Tennant or Eccleston, who were more humble and focused on showing the wonders of the universe.
A coworker (a girl) convinced me to watch the latest season with Ncuti, she does love that the show is more woke and praised exactly that, I can see that this last season is more hopeful about love and warm in some ways, I took the opportunity to watch it with my gf, she had never watched Dr.Who before, and she loved it for the same reasons, she even cried in a couple of episodes, for me, it felt like every episode was a Christmas episode, which might not be my thing, but I'm glad they enjoy it.
To put it simply the show has evolved into something else that is not for me and that's ok, simply treasure the season, doctor, and companion that gave you the most enjoyment.
Honestly, I think Doctor Who needs to go on a hiatus for a while. I feel like the shorter seasons are harming the ability to develop any of the principal characters, especially when there's been a...
Honestly, I think Doctor Who needs to go on a hiatus for a while. I feel like the shorter seasons are harming the ability to develop any of the principal characters, especially when there's been a consistent doctor-lite episode throughout each season. That said, they're being more experimental, and I've enjoyed that a huge amount. It's nice to see the more fantasy-oriented approach the last couple of seasons are taking, although it seems like that'll be wrapping up shortly.
Even with that experimentation though, the show feels tired out. I love Doctor Who, and have since I first saw Christopher Eccleston gleefully yelling "everybody lives" back in 2005. And 20 years of fairly consistent release is unheard of in British (fictional) TV outside of soap operas and, well, Doctor Who.
What does it need to do to feel fresh again? Take a pause. Give it ten, fifteen years. Give new ideas time to percolate. Give the world a chance to forget about Doctor Who for a long while. Let some new writers start finding their voices. Let a generation be born that hasn't been exposed to Doctor Who. And then, when you're ready to bring the Doctor back (because they will be back), you do a huge universal reset that happens off screen. Another Time War, or something with a similar effect. The Doctor can be a part of it or not. Hell, force the Doctor to escape to a brand new universe or something. They have no idea what's going on, or if their whacky Time Lord powers still work. They are mourning the loss of everyone they once knew, but they are also faced with a whole new time and place to explore. IDK. It's half-baked, and I'm no script writer. But the old horse needs to be rested, and I think that much is clear.
I don't watch Dr. Who anymore because it is hard to get without paying a monthly fee it is hard to understand the dialogue. I'm not sure why. I have a similar problem with other contemporary...
I don't watch Dr. Who anymore
because it is hard to get without paying a monthly fee
it is hard to understand the dialogue. I'm not sure why. I have a similar problem with other contemporary videos especially with British actors. I think the low volume or speed of the dialogue may have something to do with it. I do NOT have this problem with classic Dr. Who.
I do not like the "new" ( not-classical ) format
I do not like how the producers have tried to make it a pop show
The TARDIS yuck - make it look like Tom Baker's TARDIS
Is it possible contemporary actors are being allowed to use their own accent instead of RP? I haven't watched a lot of classic Who but the older Britcoms I watched seems to have about 3 accents...
Is it possible contemporary actors are being allowed to use their own accent instead of RP? I haven't watched a lot of classic Who but the older Britcoms I watched seems to have about 3 accents with RP being the most common, and a single upper and lower class accent, each being used to delineate class. (
I watch with subtitles on anyways, I'm pretty good at accents but I still miss things. And some shows just need them, like Derry Girls
All of my various exposure to and knowledge of Irish culture (including a visit in the early 00s), Catholicism, the Troubles and the 90s came together to help me and I'm sure I still missed stuff....
All of my various exposure to and knowledge of Irish culture (including a visit in the early 00s), Catholicism, the Troubles and the 90s came together to help me and I'm sure I still missed stuff.
That show is so good even if I'm old enough to relate more to Sister Michael these days
British actors is where I notice needing subtitles the most, but it isn't just there. It is with other contemporary "television" and movies. I think it is the way the videos are being made.
British actors is where I notice needing subtitles the most, but it isn't just there. It is with other contemporary "television" and movies. I think it is the way the videos are being made.
I found this video informative on why subtitles are used by so many people now when watching TV shows/movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJtb2YXae8
I’ve remained fairly confused for Series 13-14 and the preceding specials. Davies is undeniably an absurdly talented writer, responsible for not only the revival of Who to new heights but also for...
I’ve remained fairly confused for Series 13-14 and the preceding specials. Davies is undeniably an absurdly talented writer, responsible for not only the revival of Who to new heights but also for numerous other unreleased fantastic series. And, after the turbulent Chibnall years (I never cared about the canon changes, it was just deeply rare to see an ounce of quality writing and soul), quality has improved, I think. Episodes like 73 Yards, Boom, Lucky Day, Lux, Rogue, The Well—wow, this programme finally has memorable highlights again! And of course things are hit and miss, as they always, always have been.
Yet it seems that, somehow, not a single one of the above “hits” was penned by Davies? He’s written episode after episode of largely panned disappointments that seemed to miss the point about what made Gatwa great and what made Who great, and a lot of these scripts were just truly surprisingly poor. Clearly he’s injected a lot of new blood and life and that’s done the trick to some good results, however his direct writing decisions seem to have been… forgotten since he last left the show? Would we have had episodes twenty years ago like Space Babies, or The Empire of Death, or The Robot Revolution, or The Star Beast? I… don’t know?
I really need to dive back into Doctor Who. I binged 9 and 10s run so I could catch up and watch the end of 11's in real time. And then I just didn't really click with Capaldi. I was very excited...
I really need to dive back into Doctor Who. I binged 9 and 10s run so I could catch up and watch the end of 11's in real time. And then I just didn't really click with Capaldi. I was very excited to see there was a female doctor and a non-white doctor, but I kind of fell into that trap of being behind on a show and being overwhelmed by the amount of time required to catch up (which of course just gets worse as the seasons/series roll by). Where do Americans even watch Doctor Who these days? Most of NuWho was on Netflix back in the day and I pirated most of 11's run when I was watching that.
I'll say if you want to try Capaldi again, try the 10th series with Bill as the companion. It is relatively self-contained for the show and has some really good moments IMO. Bill is a great foil...
I'll say if you want to try Capaldi again, try the 10th series with Bill as the companion. It is relatively self-contained for the show and has some really good moments IMO. Bill is a great foil for Capaldi's Doctor.
The current Doctor is on Disney+ But Jodi and everything from 2005 until 2024 is on HBOMax still I think (YMMV but Justwatch.com is where I go to check)
You could absolutely restart with Ncuti Gatwa on Disney+ which really is a pretty solid reset away from the previous stuff. I couldn't tell you what number Ncuti is, because of MANY shenanigans between Capaldi and him.
This thread finally pushed me to watch the latest season. As an old time Dr Who fan, I actually loved Jodie Whittaker's doctor. She is one of the top three doctors for me. Her and Tennant had that...
This thread finally pushed me to watch the latest season.
As an old time Dr Who fan, I actually loved Jodie Whittaker's doctor. She is one of the top three doctors for me. Her and Tennant had that balance of whimsy and gravitas that Tom Baker managed to pull off so well.
I think it was a mistake to end Jodie's Dr Who so early. But at least it's obvious to everyone now, the problem wasn't with Jodie, the problem is with the writing.
And frankly, Dr Who's writing has always been all over the place.
But it used to hide the inconsistent quality with pure volume and really shitty special effects.
I simply expect much better writing from a handful of shows and top notch special effects.
Plus, I think, if all you have are upside down trash cans with toilet plungers and egg beaters sticking out of them, and you need to create 2.5 hours of TV, your natural tendency is to lean more into plot and character. You focus on the dialogue and the action, and use the special effects sparingly.
Mostly I think you have all been spoiled. Some of the best Dr Who shows ever were made in the last twenty years. There have been more great Dr Who episodes in the last twenty years (~200 episodes) than in the first twenty years (~700 episodes.)
Checking in with the most recent series finale, you can kind of see the seams on where they could of zigged or zagged, on top of it being the general ball of chaos of an RTD finale. I have...
Checking in with the most recent series finale, you can kind of see the seams on where they could of zigged or zagged, on top of it being the general ball of chaos of an RTD finale. I have questions about the future direction of the show, but it's more of the ritual of the show for me, sort of like someone who regularly watches the Simpsons at this point I'd imagine.
I know people don’t want to give credence to the idea that people stopped watching the show after it became “woke.” I personally stopped watching after Comer became Doctor because the writing was noticeably worse.
I read a comment once a couple of years ago that might seem adjacent to the “woke” stuff but which I think might have some reasoning. Doctor Who had a large female audience, but they didn’t actually want to be the doctor, they wanted to be the companion or in other words they wanted to date the doctor. So when the doctor became a woman that took away that wish fulfillment. I think that issue still took place with Gatwa’s casting. An equivalent the other way around would be Tomb Raider, men who like Laura Croft don’t want to be her, they’re just attracted to her.
It’s perhaps why we will never see James Bond, a male fantasy fulfillment character, be a woman.
This is why all the woke arguments annoy me. It's used by idiots who probably never even watched the show to attack it, but i've also seen it used by people who want to defend the noticeable drop in writing quality. I have straight up been called horrible things because pointing out that the writing quality declined (and had already been doing so) means I just hate women.
I don't think it's a secret to anyone that the writing has been and continues to be the problem with recent Dr. Who seasons. Worse I feel that like other media it's using the diversity as a shield against criticism, much like my previous example (not as bad as some, but it's certainly there).
Plenty of people i've talked to thought Jodie was a great Doctor when she was allowed to be the doctor, but mostly felt like she wasn't being given the same writing quality and moments as the previous doctors. I gave up on that season, but with the discussions i've seen around the show i'm not really surprised that poor writing still plagues it.
I know it's hip to blame "the wokeness," but IMO the real answer is that Dr. Who has always been propped up by Moffat and Davies doing the writing. And they were running out of steam by the time #12 came around IMO.
The first season of #13 (Jodie Whittikar) had solid viewership and audience appreciation. Better than the prior few seasons. But it wasn't enough to stem how the series has been fundamentally been running out of steam for years now....especially once Moffat and Davies stopped being deeply involved.
I stopped watching when it became woke - not because it became woke but rather because it kept hamfisting it horribly.
The episode with Rosa parks left a terrible taste in my mouth. One screaming ”I’m doing this because I support BLM” while at the same time cheapening a massive moment for black history by pretending it’s all thanks to the Doctor.
And this had been a trend before. I never liked the whole premise of the Van Gogh episode for example, but at least that one felt incredibly emotional whereas the Rosa Parks one just felt gross.
The doctor being female never bothered me either; but leaning hard into the politics of it .. just massively detracted from the show.
Moffat should have never been a main writer. I remember being so excited at the idea of him becoming a lead and it just set DW on a massive downwards trend of flanderization. The “woke” stuff is just the absurd end of it.
I definitely agree that Moffat's tenure as showrunner was marked by a sharp decrease in the quality of the show's writing that mostly just continued to get worse (which is why I stopped watching quite a long time ago now). That said, most of the new bad writing is not Moffat's fault, as he stepped down after the 10th series iirc. I'm not sure whether the Chibnall series were all that much better, as I'd been checked out for a while by that point.
Overall I think "wokeness" is orthogonal to the problems with the show's writing that are actually turning people off. The hamfisted stuff has been there in series with white male actors playing The Doctor, and I think it's much more about the quality of the writing of the episodes surrounding that and how consistent it is than it is about whether the subject matter is "woke" or not.
At this point I'd like to recommend The Fall of Doctor Who. Despite the title, it's an extremely analytic deep dive into Chibnall's series', in good faith and giving credit where possible. It's quite long but divided into chapters for your convenience.
Fwiw IMO, Ncuti is absolutely as attractive from the feminine gaze; he's the Doctor which gives a default level but he's also just hot. I've fallen off mostly because I've fallen off from nearly all TV, but enjoyed his first season. Whether or not folks are being racist about it, or homophobic or something, idk. (His queerness is an asset in my eyes but the doctor's been bi for a while, I don't think that would actually turn people off... But maybe I'm wrong)
I do think it's probably an issue for a lot of straight women, if we take that theory as fact I think that he's visibly gay is surely a blow to that wish fulfillment. A recent, popular, gay man that a lot of women like is Jonathan Bailey who is more straight presenting.
I think a blow to this argument would be Capaldi, who is quite old to the point where I don't think he would have that level of attraction from women. Even in his first episode as the Doctor he tells Clara "I'm not your boyfriend" and says that was more to remind him than it was her. Because there was this obvious sexual tension between Clara and Matt's doctor that wasn't present with Capaldi.
Is it really though? Plenty of gay people are still considered sex symbols in the eyes of straight people of the opposite gender. E.g. Luke Evans, Wentworth Miller, Jodie Foster, Zaquiri Quinto, Ricky Martin, Freddie Mercury, George Michael... the list goes on and on. Or, hell, even more relevant to this particular discussion, John Barrowman (Captain Jack Harkness in Dr Who and Torchwood).
If being "visibly gay" mattered that much to straight female audiences and to ratings, why did Torchwood do as well as it did for so long?
You got me there. That's a good list.
We can probably speculate all day long about the potential contributing factors which is leading to the viewership decline. However, I think it ultimately comes down to one basic fact... shows can only go for so long before they inevitably run out of steam and people get tired of watching them.
At some point the show will probably get revitalized again, like it was in 2005/2006. But right now it's just in a bit of a lull because people are tired of seeing roughly the same themes and tropes get rehashed season after season. And IMO trying to blame it on "wokeness" or any related BS, like it being the fault of them casting a woman or openly queer person as the Doctor, is just right-wing propaganda.
I watched the show up until the first break. The show is really not that "woke" and the queer element is not at the forefront. It's just something that is kinda there, but it is not the subject of the show. He's a really good Doctor. Some episodes were brilliant, some were quite boring, but I enjoyed them for the most part. You're right, we don't need to look for deep reasons for everything. It's a competitive market. Good shows fail all the time.
I've probably watched over 1/3 of the Dr Who episodes since the 2005 season. I tried watching them straight through for a while but some were just a complete waste of time so I started using an episode guide to skip the bad ones. I think Dr Who has the most uneven level of quality of any show I've seen. So when you say "some episodes were brilliant, some were quite boring..." that is just how the show has been for decades.
I agree.
For real. It’s such an uneven show, and it’s probably more due to the household name-iness than the quality that it’s kept going so long in this incarnation
Lots of memorable shows are uneven. Stark Trek. The Twighlight Zone. Black Mirror, even. There is something to be said about shows that are allowed to take that kind of risk.
They probably made more sense on network TV, though. Nowadays you watch a show from beginning to end, so that uneveness becomes clearer.
There's plenty of bad episodes of other shows, but Dr Who will have an absolute science fiction classic, that we talk about for years, followed by an episode where they basically just run away from someone in a rubber costume for 40 minutes.
I must make an aditional comment. I am, just now, watching the Capaldi era of Doctor Who. On its very fist episode, S08E01, I was delighted to see, as part of the main cast, a lesbian couple (secretly married) in what appears to be Victorian England. One of them looks like a Reptilian.
That was in 2014, but I am sure I could come up with more examples if my memory was better. It seems to me that this show has been "woke" for a long time.
The character Captain Jack Harkness is very openly bisexual though. His introduction to the show is dancing and flirting, albeit as part of what he thinks is a business transaction, with Rose Tyler. Here's a video of the scene although the entire episode has things like this.
In Torchwood he's also shown to be bisexual, has children although for plot reasons their mum is gone. Bear in mind also that Torchwood was aimed at adults rather than families so most of the Doctor Who audience also never saw it.
The point was that he's a gay actor who's attractive /appealing to the straight female gaze. The Doctor is also flirting with Harkness in those episodes, he's explicitly bisexual (and gender fluid) and has been since before Ncuti.
In Wicked, Fiyero is flirting with all genders in "Dancing through Life," is played by a gay man, and straight women have been quite pleased.
Harkness's flirting with Rose is in fact part of why he's attractive to women, - kindness and attentiveness to the women he interacted with - is part of what makes someone appealing in the female gaze.
There's an ongoing internet fuss where straight men (particularly young, inexperienced ones) think women are just lying when they say they prefer a dad bod over, essentially, a man made of abs. And while women broadly do prefer the "dad bod" they also prefer men who don't call them liars when they say what they think. The appearance is one thing, the attitude is broadly more key. But especially when you're just enjoying a celebrity on TV, on a show where people don't really get naked regularly there's not a lot of daylight between Tennant and Gatwa.
Sometimes you realize there are people on the same internet as you who have very different experiences from you.
Straight women are the majority target audience of an absolutely staggering amount of gay smut. And in my experience, even straight women who aren't into that typically have no problem finding gay men on TV attractive -- even the straight women I grew up with, who believed it was a sin, would cop to that.
As noted by other folks, queer men aren't generally a turn off for women, especially when they're being attentive and kind to said women. Barrowman is a good comparison for Ncuti.
And Jonathan Bailey is very obviously queer IMO. Hell he's playing bisexual in Wicked and the universal opinion seemed to be how hot he was. I don't agree that he's particularly straight presenting outside of maybe bridgerton... (I haven't kept watching tbh) But regency attire by itself does a lot of the lifting there.
Honestly I think people are tired of RTD (and Moffat).
According to this, he was a sex symbol during his run. And I can definitely see it. When I first saw posters for the new season, I remember being disappointed that they were replacing Smith with some random older guy. But as soon as I saw him in action, I realized how perfect his was for the role. He has a presence that makes him stand out.
Dr. Who has always been woke.
I haven't watched any doctor who since series 12. Having 3 companions that mostly just stood around asking questions for the doctor to answer did not make for good television. And the retcon to the doctor's history not just being a regular time lord that stole a TARDIS took away a lot of the charm for me.
Has anyone who has watched since then found the show to get better or still be worth watching?
I love Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor, but I don't think she ever got a good season. Ncuti Gatwa has been great so far, and while the plots are a little less sci-fi than previous seasons, the writing is at much the same level—for better and worse—as most of nu-Who.
I thought the currently airing season was good enough that I'm pretty surprised to see headlines about the ratings dropping.
Doctor Who was a British cultural phenomenon for decades, but like with a lot of things, the death of analog television crippled its ability to make such an impact again. It's still popular today, but it's been running off of old momentum and a cult following for a long time now. I think its end has been long approaching; personally I'm hoping they can stick the landing and end it well when the time comes, rather than drag it on and on until they have no choice.
I've always been fascinated by the culture around TV programming in the UK during the 80's and 90's, where it wasn't uncommon for literally 30% of the country or more to be tuned into a channel at once. This has created an incredibly homogenous cultural memory of the time that I don't think could ever possibly happen again. If you were from Cornwall you might have next to nothing in common with someone from Aberdeen, but you could be sure that they'd seen a few episodes of Only Fools and Horses, and that's a connection right there. I wonder if having those common experiences is part of what make British culture at the time so open and friendly, and if part of the reason why so many today are hostile and tribalistic (around the world really, not just in the UK) is that we all effectively live in our own algorithmically-generated worlds now.
I love Doctor Who. I also absolutely adore Ncuti Gatwa. I have not watched a single episode of Gatwa's Doctor because in the US I'd have to pay for Disney+ to see him, which is just too expensive for me.
I feel like the effect of restrictions of the new (c.2022, I think) streaming contract on viewership is more significant than you see in articles about the show's popularity.
My take is that the show became more fantasy than Sci-Fi, and the writers are simply too burned writing it, kinda like the Simpsons, I quit the show halfway with Capaldi, personally I disliked how he was the center of attention and basically had no rules that he could not break (example), as compared to other previous doctors like Tennant or Eccleston, who were more humble and focused on showing the wonders of the universe.
A coworker (a girl) convinced me to watch the latest season with Ncuti, she does love that the show is more woke and praised exactly that, I can see that this last season is more hopeful about love and warm in some ways, I took the opportunity to watch it with my gf, she had never watched Dr.Who before, and she loved it for the same reasons, she even cried in a couple of episodes, for me, it felt like every episode was a Christmas episode, which might not be my thing, but I'm glad they enjoy it.
To put it simply the show has evolved into something else that is not for me and that's ok, simply treasure the season, doctor, and companion that gave you the most enjoyment.
Honestly, I think Doctor Who needs to go on a hiatus for a while. I feel like the shorter seasons are harming the ability to develop any of the principal characters, especially when there's been a consistent doctor-lite episode throughout each season. That said, they're being more experimental, and I've enjoyed that a huge amount. It's nice to see the more fantasy-oriented approach the last couple of seasons are taking, although it seems like that'll be wrapping up shortly.
Even with that experimentation though, the show feels tired out. I love Doctor Who, and have since I first saw Christopher Eccleston gleefully yelling "everybody lives" back in 2005. And 20 years of fairly consistent release is unheard of in British (fictional) TV outside of soap operas and, well, Doctor Who.
What does it need to do to feel fresh again? Take a pause. Give it ten, fifteen years. Give new ideas time to percolate. Give the world a chance to forget about Doctor Who for a long while. Let some new writers start finding their voices. Let a generation be born that hasn't been exposed to Doctor Who. And then, when you're ready to bring the Doctor back (because they will be back), you do a huge universal reset that happens off screen. Another Time War, or something with a similar effect. The Doctor can be a part of it or not. Hell, force the Doctor to escape to a brand new universe or something. They have no idea what's going on, or if their whacky Time Lord powers still work. They are mourning the loss of everyone they once knew, but they are also faced with a whole new time and place to explore. IDK. It's half-baked, and I'm no script writer. But the old horse needs to be rested, and I think that much is clear.
I don't watch Dr. Who anymore
Is it possible contemporary actors are being allowed to use their own accent instead of RP? I haven't watched a lot of classic Who but the older Britcoms I watched seems to have about 3 accents with RP being the most common, and a single upper and lower class accent, each being used to delineate class. (
I watch with subtitles on anyways, I'm pretty good at accents but I still miss things. And some shows just need them, like Derry Girls
I had a really hard time understanding this show but it didn't stop my from enjoying it any.
Don't worry, even other Irish people have trouble with the northern accents (and also many other counties).
All of my various exposure to and knowledge of Irish culture (including a visit in the early 00s), Catholicism, the Troubles and the 90s came together to help me and I'm sure I still missed stuff.
That show is so good even if I'm old enough to relate more to Sister Michael these days
British actors is where I notice needing subtitles the most, but it isn't just there. It is with other contemporary "television" and movies. I think it is the way the videos are being made.
Fair, I assume something about the sound mixing has changed and, like the whole video smoothing tech, it's all worse
I found this video informative on why subtitles are used by so many people now when watching TV shows/movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJtb2YXae8
This sort of makes me sad, even as someone who hasn’t watched the show in probably a decade. I just sort of assumed that it would always exist.
I’ve remained fairly confused for Series 13-14 and the preceding specials. Davies is undeniably an absurdly talented writer, responsible for not only the revival of Who to new heights but also for numerous other unreleased fantastic series. And, after the turbulent Chibnall years (I never cared about the canon changes, it was just deeply rare to see an ounce of quality writing and soul), quality has improved, I think. Episodes like 73 Yards, Boom, Lucky Day, Lux, Rogue, The Well—wow, this programme finally has memorable highlights again! And of course things are hit and miss, as they always, always have been.
Yet it seems that, somehow, not a single one of the above “hits” was penned by Davies? He’s written episode after episode of largely panned disappointments that seemed to miss the point about what made Gatwa great and what made Who great, and a lot of these scripts were just truly surprisingly poor. Clearly he’s injected a lot of new blood and life and that’s done the trick to some good results, however his direct writing decisions seem to have been… forgotten since he last left the show? Would we have had episodes twenty years ago like Space Babies, or The Empire of Death, or The Robot Revolution, or The Star Beast? I… don’t know?
I really need to dive back into Doctor Who. I binged 9 and 10s run so I could catch up and watch the end of 11's in real time. And then I just didn't really click with Capaldi. I was very excited to see there was a female doctor and a non-white doctor, but I kind of fell into that trap of being behind on a show and being overwhelmed by the amount of time required to catch up (which of course just gets worse as the seasons/series roll by). Where do Americans even watch Doctor Who these days? Most of NuWho was on Netflix back in the day and I pirated most of 11's run when I was watching that.
I'll say if you want to try Capaldi again, try the 10th series with Bill as the companion. It is relatively self-contained for the show and has some really good moments IMO. Bill is a great foil for Capaldi's Doctor.
The current Doctor is on Disney+ But Jodi and everything from 2005 until 2024 is on HBOMax still I think (YMMV but Justwatch.com is where I go to check)
You could absolutely restart with Ncuti Gatwa on Disney+ which really is a pretty solid reset away from the previous stuff. I couldn't tell you what number Ncuti is, because of MANY shenanigans between Capaldi and him.
This thread finally pushed me to watch the latest season.
As an old time Dr Who fan, I actually loved Jodie Whittaker's doctor. She is one of the top three doctors for me. Her and Tennant had that balance of whimsy and gravitas that Tom Baker managed to pull off so well.
I think it was a mistake to end Jodie's Dr Who so early. But at least it's obvious to everyone now, the problem wasn't with Jodie, the problem is with the writing.
And frankly, Dr Who's writing has always been all over the place.
But it used to hide the inconsistent quality with pure volume and really shitty special effects.
I simply expect much better writing from a handful of shows and top notch special effects.
Plus, I think, if all you have are upside down trash cans with toilet plungers and egg beaters sticking out of them, and you need to create 2.5 hours of TV, your natural tendency is to lean more into plot and character. You focus on the dialogue and the action, and use the special effects sparingly.
Mostly I think you have all been spoiled. Some of the best Dr Who shows ever were made in the last twenty years. There have been more great Dr Who episodes in the last twenty years (~200 episodes) than in the first twenty years (~700 episodes.)
Have faith.
Believe.
Dr Who will rise like the phoenix again.
Checking in with the most recent series finale, you can kind of see the seams on where they could of zigged or zagged, on top of it being the general ball of chaos of an RTD finale. I have questions about the future direction of the show, but it's more of the ritual of the show for me, sort of like someone who regularly watches the Simpsons at this point I'd imagine.