I have some family members that have been ignoring the rules of canning for years like this. Most of the time they are fine. Occasionally, they end up in the hospital from a severe bout of "food...
I have some family members that have been ignoring the rules of canning for years like this.
Most of the time they are fine. Occasionally, they end up in the hospital from a severe bout of "food sickness" that is totally unrelated to their canning processes.
The best thing I can do is make sure to not eat food that they prepare at gatherings, make sure my kid knows not to eat their food, and gracefully accept their offers of canned food and throw it directly in the garbage when I get home.
I hate food waste. Unfortunately, I consider the food wasted as soon as they put it in unsanitary jars.
Today I learned. : ( I was trained as a young hiker to boil and or treat water unless it came from a safe source. I read the ghost map, the narrative nonfiction story of the discovery of the...
Today I learned. : (
I was trained as a young hiker to boil and or treat water unless it came from a safe source. I read the ghost map, the narrative nonfiction story of the discovery of the causes of cholera and the tainted well in London. This is horrifying.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/raw-meat-diet-trend-7094597#:~:text=The%20online%20obsession%20with%20eating,ribeye%2C%20and%20even%20bull%20testicles. I happily eat sashimi but not the rest of it.
I'm sitting here realizing when they say "rebel" they mean lazy and flippant. There's no good excuse to not do these things safely, from canning to sterilizing water.
I'm sitting here realizing when they say "rebel" they mean lazy and flippant. There's no good excuse to not do these things safely, from canning to sterilizing water.
Most of the people cited in the article have takes a little more nuanced than that. The founder, for instance, primarily uses regular salt instead of canning salt and doesn't put in citric acid...
Most of the people cited in the article have takes a little more nuanced than that. The founder, for instance, primarily uses regular salt instead of canning salt and doesn't put in citric acid when she's canning tomatoes. (I'd guess that she's pressure canning the tomatoes.)
Yikety yikes yikes! I live in area with a lot of agriculture and selling home-canned goods is super popular at farmer's market and other local shops here. They often carry a label stating the risk...
Yikety yikes yikes! I live in area with a lot of agriculture and selling home-canned goods is super popular at farmer's market and other local shops here. They often carry a label stating the risk of botulism due to them being made in a home/cottage industry, so I guess it's their way of skirting liability? Sometimes I receive some jellies from these type of setups as gifts, but I am so wary to trust something made by random person in a random kitchen that I don't know. It feels like a sin to toss them, but I just have no trust in it being safe. I recently bought a jar of preserved pickles from a local shop thinking it had more "vetting" only to have the jar open without a pop. Into the trash it went only to be replaced by some Bubbies.
Throwing out something that doesn't pop is only common sense. But throwing out jams and jellies that look good is mostly just a waste. Jams and jellies are a food that can be eyeballed - if it...
Throwing out something that doesn't pop is only common sense.
But throwing out jams and jellies that look good is mostly just a waste.
Jams and jellies are a food that can be eyeballed - if it looks and smells fine, it's fine.
They are too acid and too sweet for anything really problematic to grow in, and mould - although icky to look at - won't do you any real harm as it is easy to spot before throwing it out.
(Obviously if anything is bubbling or moulded or murky or smelly, something has clearly gone wrong and out it goes!)
However your point about consuming food made in a random kitchen is an increasingly valid one.
As people lose the habit of cooking routinely, a lot of the old protective behaviours are - paradoxically - dropping away, and home cooked food is not as safe as it once was.
The intersection between industry and the home is an uncomfortable one - does that chicken have the ability to cross-contaminate otherwise safe food? Was that insecticide used in a safe way near the kitchen counter? Is that gluten free item actually free of gluten?
It makes me sad, but I am also less enthusiastic about home-made food than I once was.
I think if they were jams or jellies that I had made myself or came from someone I knew well, I would be more trusting. The ones in question went through some temperature fluctuations I think and...
I think if they were jams or jellies that I had made myself or came from someone I knew well, I would be more trusting. The ones in question went through some temperature fluctuations I think and were runny in a weird way in addition from coming somewhere I was unsure of. It sorta ties into my concerns with random individuals undertaking home canning and then selling their goods to the public. I don't know how well they cleaned their work area and tools or if they measured the ratios accordingly. And these concerns seem to match your own for good reason!
A fair number of people have probably gotten food poisoning from a restaurant; a place regulated by food inspections. Cottage industry doesn't have that regulation so you are unfortunately taking a higher risk by purchasing a food item made in a home kitchen.
At least where I live, you have to have an inspected kitchen to sell prepared foods at a farmer's market. Even simple things that you couldn't possibly screw up like honey need an inspection if...
At least where I live, you have to have an inspected kitchen to sell prepared foods at a farmer's market. Even simple things that you couldn't possibly screw up like honey need an inspection if sold anywhere other than on your property. It's possible that the canned food at the farmer's market where you are is the same and just putting a warning on the label to be safe or possibly as a requirement. Granted I don't know if inspections also check the preparation of the food since I haven't gone through it myself, they may just check the kitchen itself.
I did some research in my own state due to this comment and it appears to be a case by case basis depending on the Farmer's Market you sell at. If it's something big held in one of the larger...
I did some research in my own state due to this comment and it appears to be a case by case basis depending on the Farmer's Market you sell at. If it's something big held in one of the larger population centers it appears you have to have a permit to sell your food goods. For all else such as yearly festivals, local events and pop-ups, or the small town produce stand that sells locally made canned goods; there appears to be no regulation.
It's wild that it's event to event to me. Illinois used to limit cottage industry to just farmers market but now allows direct sales. The laws vary widely state to state though and so does...
It's wild that it's event to event to me. Illinois used to limit cottage industry to just farmers market but now allows direct sales. The laws vary widely state to state though and so does enforcement. Facebook taco sales were a thing in my city long before it was even possibly legit.
I worked with one girl whose mother in law "canned" pickles. She wouldn't use recipes, measurements or ratios; she'd just boil stuff and put them in jars. When she noticed a foam starting to form...
I worked with one girl whose mother in law "canned" pickles. She wouldn't use recipes, measurements or ratios; she'd just boil stuff and put them in jars. When she noticed a foam starting to form on top, she'd open the jar, scrape it off, and put the lid back on and put it in the cupboard. If you were to tell her that it's unsanitary and could make someone sick, she would get absolutely belligerent, super defensive and offended. I don't understand it, personally. If you're going to go through the trouble of doing something, why not do it right? Especially when the risk of doing it wrong is botulism. I don't get it.
This is something that I struggled with while working at a homeless shelter that accepted food donations from the public. Although we couldn't use home-canned food since we couldn't vouch for how...
and gracefully accept their offers of canned food and throw it directly in the garbage when I get home.
This is something that I struggled with while working at a homeless shelter that accepted food donations from the public.
Although we couldn't use home-canned food since we couldn't vouch for how safely it was prepared, we accepted it gracefully and promptly disposed of it. Throwing it away always bothered me, but the thought of rolling the dice with someone else's health bothered a lot more.
Excellent write up in response to this thread! With you bringing up the raw milk trends, it eerily parallels some of the crazy stuff that I would see on the Fermentation subreddit when I was first...
Excellent write up in response to this thread! With you bringing up the raw milk trends, it eerily parallels some of the crazy stuff that I would see on the Fermentation subreddit when I was first getting into it. One of the best books for Fermentation that they would recommend over there, The Art of Fermentation by Sandoor Ellix Katz, is written by an author who supports the raw milk movement. It's frustrating that a revered resource can also be an accidental introduction into these dangerous trends.
I own a copy and have used it frequently in making kraut or attempting other ferments, but I noticed how his passion for good gut bacteria from ferments trailed off into some dangerous areas especially raw milk. When a so called expert in one thing starts touting the so called benefits of something that has been out of the public mind, those who don't better start picking it up. My own copy has other book recommendations from the publisher in the back and one is for raw milk.
It feels oddly similar to the alt-right pipeline where it begins as something somewhat not insidious, but depending on where your research goes it can lead you to some questionable "experts." The alt-milk pipeline.
My favorite version of this was raw water, which is extremely foolish. I get that "blindly trust all experts" isn't a great position, but at least some experts actually have, you know, expertise.
see also: raw milk
My favorite version of this was raw water, which is extremely foolish. I get that "blindly trust all experts" isn't a great position, but at least some experts actually have, you know, expertise.
Skepticism can be healthy but I'd say that blindly trusting experts will lead to a safer life than blindly distrusting all experts like the current trend. I have a theory that society goes through...
I get that "blindly trust all experts" isn't a great position, but at least some experts actually have, you know, expertise.
Skepticism can be healthy but I'd say that blindly trusting experts will lead to a safer life than blindly distrusting all experts like the current trend.
I have a theory that society goes through cycles of "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to certain things like rules and regulations but that society also doesn't understand cause and effect. This leads to thinking like "Why should my kid get a polio vaccination? I've never known anyone with polio!"
USDA rules and guidelines are a result of deaths, diseases, injuries and a whole host of unpleasant occurences. One could argue that a certain rule may be overzealous and extreme but I'd bet that such a rule exists because someone died or a bunch of people could have died if they had co-morbidities and they got lucky and "only" got hospitalzied.
Canning salt is just salt that does not have an anti-caking agent added. Using regular salt isn't a safety concern, it just means the result might be cloudy. Page 1-28 It's not like pink...
though she doesn’t use canning salt, a product made specifically for canning food, and doesn’t add vinegar or citric acid to tomatoes, which is recommended to ensure safe levels of acidity.
Canning salt is just salt that does not have an anti-caking agent added. Using regular salt isn't a safety concern, it just means the result might be cloudy. Page 1-28 It's not like pink preserving salts where using the wrong salt is going to cause harm.
The acidity thing is super common in YouTube videos. It's rare to see anyone add acid to canned tomato sauces, and it's really concerning that there's not enough pushback about it.
Chapman claims that in all her years of canning she has never gotten sick from any of the foods she’s preserved. She’s had to deal with spoilage, which is easy to detect by sniffing — unlike botulism, which is odorless. “I’ve never had any problems in my canning, unlike with restaurants and deli food,” she says. “People misunderstand and think that all food poisoning is botulism, but it’s not. You will know when something that you’ve canned has gone bad.”
"Smell it" is terrible advice for food safety. You smell the food. The three options are
It smells mouldy. You've just inhaled mould spores, which isn't great.
It smells rotten. Don't eat it. (Although, you know, blue cheese, aged meat, yoghurt, beer, etc etc)
It smells fine -- this doesn't mean it is fine, it means you don't have enough information to know whether it's safe or not. Food poisoning bacteria can be present in tiny amounts and still make you very poorly, and they don't smell.
Yeah, I had a whole thing after reading that canning salt thing. "Canning salt is a thing? Why do you need a special salt?" And then it's just regular salt, the kind I had been buying for years...
Yeah, I had a whole thing after reading that canning salt thing. "Canning salt is a thing? Why do you need a special salt?" And then it's just regular salt, the kind I had been buying for years without "canning" in the name.
I kind of agree with you about the smell test being bad advice, but I take a little bit of umbrage with your reasoning. Inhaling a little bit of mould spores is probably going to be better for your health than eating the colony unwittingly. But you're more likely to have spotted the mold visually before needing to smell it. Number 3 is very reasonable, though.
As someone who has a growing interest in a different type of food preservation, fermentation, canning is not something I feel confident trying due to the higher risks of botulism. With...
As someone who has a growing interest in a different type of food preservation, fermentation, canning is not something I feel confident trying due to the higher risks of botulism. With fermentation there are a couple of sound rules that will keep you safe (salt %, keeping stuff below the brine, NOMA's bag method), but canning relies more on proper sanitization and acidity levels.
The brazenness of some of the folks in this article is deeply concerning and I can't help but feel I would have been one of the ones calling out the dangers in their "rebellious" methodology. Having worked in the restaurant industry in the past, food safety is pretty much nailed into my brain and I am very by the books in my own kitchen. But yet, there's a fair concession that the USDA's standards might need some revising after so long.
For those in the US, I highly recommend reaching out to your local Agricultural University/College's Extension offices. They have done some great work into researching new recipes and methods that are vetted and safe. Plus they are generally a great resource for local Agricultural things in your area that you wouldn't have considered like foraging and more.
Luckily in the US there's a lot of work about safe canning practices, and there are some genuinely great sources of information. The USDA's Complete Guide to Home Canning links to the National...
Luckily in the US there's a lot of work about safe canning practices, and there are some genuinely great sources of information.
Thank you for sharing out a great list of resources to help others in this thread! There's an excellent Adam Ragusea video on lacto-fermentation that includes an interview with the Director of the...
Thank you for sharing out a great list of resources to help others in this thread!
There's an excellent Adam Ragusea video on lacto-fermentation that includes an interview with the Director of the National Center for Home Food Preservation! Dr. Carla Schwan provides some excellent commentary on the science and risks along with discussing canning compared to fermentation.
It's not really as hard or dangerous as they make it sound. I have a water bath canner for things like jellies and tomatoes. I have a pressure canner for less acidic foods like meat. As you know...
It's not really as hard or dangerous as they make it sound. I have a water bath canner for things like jellies and tomatoes. I have a pressure canner for less acidic foods like meat. As you know from working in the food industry, temperature and oxygen are the 2 main factors that you're interested in. As long as you hit the right temperature foemthenright amount of time for your specific food, and have the proper gap between the top of the food and the seal, then you're good to go. If the gap is right, the temp is right, and the lid pops when it seals, then there's nothing to worry about.
I grew up watching my mom can because we had a huge garden. I was still a little intimidated the first time I did it myself. After a couple times it's not nearly as intimidating.
What kinds of meats do you can? This has always puzzled me. My mother did/does a fair bit of canning but it's always vegetables or fruits. The phrase "canned meat" just conjurors images of spam to me.
I have a pressure canner for less acidic foods like meat
What kinds of meats do you can? This has always puzzled me. My mother did/does a fair bit of canning but it's always vegetables or fruits. The phrase "canned meat" just conjurors images of spam to me.
I've canned chicken and venison by themselves, but mainly it's been stews, chili, or spaghetti sauce with meat in them. You can also can "Hamburger Helper" type homemade meals. To be clear, not...
I've canned chicken and venison by themselves, but mainly it's been stews, chili, or spaghetti sauce with meat in them. You can also can "Hamburger Helper" type homemade meals. To be clear, not actual Hamburger Helper, just meals in that same vein.
I remember the Danger Zone well haha! I've certainly been interested in canning myself due to the overlap with fermentation, but I think the equipment required has intimidated me. Sounds weird...
I remember the Danger Zone well haha! I've certainly been interested in canning myself due to the overlap with fermentation, but I think the equipment required has intimidated me. Sounds weird especially for a simple hot water bath, but I think part of it is overcoming what I think is a mountain of effort in my head. Pressure cookers also irrationally scare me despite having an Instant Pot, but I think my newer model has broken my trust in them.
I REALLY recommend a stove top pressure cooker with jiggler weights for controlling the pressure. The fancy new electric ones are less reliable and not as accurate.
I REALLY recommend a stove top pressure cooker with jiggler weights for controlling the pressure. The fancy new electric ones are less reliable and not as accurate.
Personally, I think there is a middle way. The USDA has become so rigid about canning that it is almost disturbing. Many of their recommendations are quite unwieldy, and in some instances...
Personally, I think there is a middle way.
The USDA has become so rigid about canning that it is almost disturbing.
Many of their recommendations are quite unwieldy, and in some instances unnecessary.
Things like jams and jellies are generally low-risk foods and so can be made and safely consumed in ways that are time honoured; the modern ultra-super-conservative methods of preservation often result in an objectively worse product and with no particular benefit in terms of food safety.
On the other hand, only an insane person would mess with low-acid canning and the like. There are genuine hazards with this, and gauging what is safe and what is not requires either a very expert eye or solid guidelines in order to avoid them.
I've successfully canned and preserved food all my life and would like to think that there is a balance to be struck between recklessness and paranoia.
However given the fairly worrying choices some people seem to be making (even in this discussion), I guess it's better for the USDA to be safe than sorry.
I definitely agree there is a middle ground here. The USDA regulations and the strict adherence to the tested recipes can absolutely feel stifling and do often read as overdone in the warnings....
I definitely agree there is a middle ground here. The USDA regulations and the strict adherence to the tested recipes can absolutely feel stifling and do often read as overdone in the warnings. But the flip side unfortunately is the people who have gone in the opposite direction with their push back.
I have been canning and preserving food for years and also am a trained microbiologist. I understand both sides of the argument here well. It is unbelievingly frustrating as a home cook to feel like there isn’t freedom to experiment with a recipe. Especially with home grown produce and varietals that may have different acid levels. The whole canning salt vs regular salt thing is a particular annoyance of mine. However, I definitely know the horror stories of what can happen when things go wrong. Even when I follow every rule I still get an ache of paranoia about the what ifs.
With the resurgence of home canning and other preservation methods such as fermenting, curing, and aging I would absolutely love to see the USDA revamp the communication about safe practices. Unfortunately, in the interest of having to always speak to the most clueless among us, I don’t have the highest hopes much will change.
I don't have much experience canning, outside of making a few jars of pickles. I did however, used to live in a town which suffered a botulism outbreak. I think it was almost ten years ago now,...
I don't have much experience canning, outside of making a few jars of pickles.
I did however, used to live in a town which suffered a botulism outbreak. I think it was almost ten years ago now, and I remember it blowing my mind. I didn't think people actually got botulism anymore.. But a local church has a potluck, and someone's home canned potatoes were tainted and quite a few people were hospitalized and one person even died.
I first heard about this kind of thing when the mods of r/canning got removed over the API dispute. Apparently there are quite a lot of people out there that are using and promoting unsafe canning...
I first heard about this kind of thing when the mods of r/canning got removed over the API dispute. Apparently there are quite a lot of people out there that are using and promoting unsafe canning methods — I’m curious what the state of r/canning is now, as the self-proclaimed largest online canning community, now potentially without competent moderators. I certainly wouldn’t be able to judge whether the content is now safe for human consumption.
That's certainly concerning that a mod change up can inadvertently create a food safety risk. I'm wondering if r/Fermentation is in a similar state because they were already tiptoeing that line...
That's certainly concerning that a mod change up can inadvertently create a food safety risk. I'm wondering if r/Fermentation is in a similar state because they were already tiptoeing that line already. Honey garlic was a big craze over there, but despite however much research I did, I could not find any research to assert its safety or vetting in method. One individual fermented coconut which turns out to be extremely dangerous, but both OP and mods didn't remove the post or update with a warning.
Right out of the gate, this article has factual mistakes. There has NOT been one method for generations. If you've ever seen the "paraffin wax" beside the canning jars and lids at your local...
Right out of the gate, this article has factual mistakes. There has NOT been one method for generations. If you've ever seen the "paraffin wax" beside the canning jars and lids at your local grocery store, that's there because someone's grandma didn't die and ended up having children that just listen to what granny mentioned. Even the sealing rings themselves have changed in the past few decades.
Otherwise, this is why you don't accept canned goods from people you don't know. Anyone can have a blast and send their can of mushy spaghetti to be "tested", but one can free of bacteria is not science. The article is a bit light on calling out these people on this point.
In terms of muh freedoms, the people clamping down and telling you how to can foods are not your family members who will end up with food poisoning, as I've luckily discovered via a rural family members unique food management choices. Those people are scientists and the guidelines exist for a reason.
Wow, I didn't know there was such a movement. I have to say, people these days take food too seriously, but there are still some rules that need to be followed. I'll eat food well past expiring...
Wow, I didn't know there was such a movement.
I have to say, people these days take food too seriously, but there are still some rules that need to be followed. I'll eat food well past expiring using the sniff test, float eggs to see if they're bad, eat dough raw, practice the 10 second rule and cut off mold. I also know these things all have risks that I shouldn't take with other peoples lives when cooking for them and certainly shouldn't tell other people they're safe doing those things.
I also don't expect the hot food I just dumped into a jar to last long and certainly wouldn't call it canning. It kind of defeats the purpose if you don't sterilize it properly. They sounds as bad as people who don't get that petting their dog while cooking can contaminate food as much as touching raw chicken. My Great Great Grandma didn't wash her hands before cooking so it must be fine!
I made some squash soup that I canned last year that went bad in the jars and I didn't know what went wrong. Looks like you can't can squash. Now I know not to try again
I made some squash soup that I canned last year that went bad in the jars and I didn't know what went wrong. Looks like you can't can squash. Now I know not to try again
Squash is a very low-acid food and can be tricky to can successfully. Pickled squash - with lots of vinegar - is safe and easy to do. Soup, which is low acid, is technically harder and definitely...
Squash is a very low-acid food and can be tricky to can successfully.
Pickled squash - with lots of vinegar - is safe and easy to do.
Soup, which is low acid, is technically harder and definitely more dangerous in terms of possible botulism risk.
However if it just 'went bad' it's likely it wasn't processed properly.
Low acid foods can be done using a pressure canning setup. It's canning, but using a pressure cooker to get the cans above 240f. This sterilizes the food.
Low acid foods can be done using a pressure canning setup. It's canning, but using a pressure cooker to get the cans above 240f. This sterilizes the food.
Pressure canning is the only recommended method for canning low-acid foods. Do not use a boiling water canner for low-acid foods because it will not protect against botulism.
Do not use an electric, multi-cooker appliance, even if it has a “canning” or “steam canning” button on the front panel.
Yes, asterisk. But really no. Most pressure canning recipes assume 15psi. Instant pots on high only peak at 15, and spend most of their time at 10-11. Which will, if you're at sea level, juuuust...
Yes, asterisk. But really no. Most pressure canning recipes assume 15psi. Instant pots on high only peak at 15, and spend most of their time at 10-11. Which will, if you're at sea level, juuuust hits the 240F minimum for killing botulism spores. Just. But without an actual gauge, you won't know what your particular one is doing.
In my case, I only can stuff that is high acid anyway, so it's fine. But if I were going to can low-acid, low-sugar things, I wouldn't trust the instant pot to get me there.
In addition to @DanBC's comment: the measurement of PSI is absolute in one sense, but relative in another. 10 psi always means the same amount of force is being measured. (10 pounds of force per...
In addition to @DanBC's comment: the measurement of PSI is absolute in one sense, but relative in another.
10 psi always means the same amount of force is being measured. (10 pounds of force per square inch)
However that same force is being measured relative to it's surrounding environment. I assume you know that water boils at different temperatures based on elevation. The pressure canner increases pressure to allow you to achieve a higher water temperature. If you're at 0ft elevation, you need 10-15psi so that the water can reach a high enough temperatures. If your house is at 5000ft elevation, you need higher psi so the water can reach the same target temperature.
TLDR you need higher psi for the same reason you boil an egg longer in Vail Colorado than you do in San Fransisco.
Serious errors in processes obtained in pressure canners can occur if any of the following conditions exist:
The altitude at which the canner is operated is above sea level and adjustments in pressure are not made. Internal canner pressures (and therefore temperatures) are lower at higher altitudes. Canners must be operated at increased pressures as the altitude increases. Check reliable canning instructions for altitude adjustments.
This, like most food safety rules is very good advice on a society-wide scale, but also something I don't particularly find concerning on an individual scale. If something is safe say 99.8% of the...
This, like most food safety rules is very good advice on a society-wide scale, but also something I don't particularly find concerning on an individual scale. If something is safe say 99.8% of the time and you're doing it yourself you might end up sick a little less than once a year, and with the convenience or reduced waste of whatever that is, maybe it's worth it for you. But a restaurant serving 200 people a day is getting someone sick about every other day, and a food processing plant could potentially get hundreds or thousands of people ill.
Growing up my mom would get tomorrow's meat out right after dinner and thaw it for about 22 hours at room temperature. We would leave pizza sitting unrefrigerated for 2+ days and still eat it and I've eaten a lot of food out of dumpsters or off the floor in my life. And I'm sure it got me sick sometimes, but it's a risk I'm OK with. If you wanna can using untested methods go for it, but maybe don't sell or give it away, and probably keep it away from anyone under 8, over 65 or otherwise unwell.
I mean free climbing cliffs or cave diving is also stupid and dangerous to me but if that's what some people are into I really don't care. Risk tolerance is such a personal thing, I don't think it's something we should try and deal with at a personal level.
There is also a huge difference between rock climbing with safety gear and free climbing. Considering that people who can their own food also usually give canned items away to other people and...
I mean free climbing cliffs or cave diving is also stupid and dangerous to me but if that's what some people are into I really don't care. Risk tolerance is such a personal thing, I don't think it's something we should try and deal with at a personal level.
There is also a huge difference between rock climbing with safety gear and free climbing.
Considering that people who can their own food also usually give canned items away to other people and feed their own families with it I'd say it isn't just a personal thing. If we go climbing together and you think I've anchored in the safety rope properly but I've chosen to not anchor anything at all was that your personal choice to go without a safety rope?
Like another commentor on this thread mentioned we need signs to tell people not to fall into the Grand Canyon--and they still do.
If "only getting a little sick" was the worst case scenario it wouldn't be a big deal. However, hospitalizations can potentially financially ruin your average family as well as, you know, the risk of death..
The other very real concern is that very same scale you talk about in your first sentence. If scientifically unsound methods are adopted and accepted at home then those same people will push for things like raw milk to be allowed for public consumption. While they may not have ever had an issue with Farmer Bob's raw milk that is barely a day old, they will not accept that Farmer Jimmy doesn't follow safety protocols that has ramifications 72+ hours later after coming from the cow that could potentially kill old Gramma Ellie.
You might be thinking that I am looking at this one issue in the extreme--and perhaps I am. In the big picture, though, I am seeing this HUGE backslide in our society. Things that were outlawed or regulated for obvious reasons are being introduced again and presented as some benefit or boon to us: child labor, education and erasing of history/teaching that slavery was actually good for them, anti-vaxx, etc. They're seemingly always touted as "us against the government" and as acceptable risks because of "personal choice" which has the added benefit of eroding faith in our country/government/institutions/fellow humans.
Regulations are written in blood. Even if we don't know whose blood or how much blood they were still written in blood.
So I feel like you're kinda unfairly conflating my point with a whole heap of either unrelated things or things I specifically didn't argue for. I'm not pro child labor or anti teaching about...
So I feel like you're kinda unfairly conflating my point with a whole heap of either unrelated things or things I specifically didn't argue for. I'm not pro child labor or anti teaching about slavery and I specified not selling it or giving it away/ to kids. People die and get hurt from a million different things. Spending hours everyday sitting on the couch watching TV is probably just as bad if not worse than a lot of these canning practices for your health. I wouldn't promote doing that but I'm also not like "we need to stop people from being allowed to do that". It's their lives, and if that's the gamble they wanna take who am I to say they can't. Again, as long as it's for personal consumption. The harbor is safe but it's not what ships are built for, and all that.
Let's not forget that these people rarely are the only ones who consume their canned food -- they almost definitely feed it to their immediate family (including children) and probably gift it to...
Let's not forget that these people rarely are the only ones who consume their canned food -- they almost definitely feed it to their immediate family (including children) and probably gift it to other family members. They may also sell it at a farmer's market. Most of these people probably aren't consciously taking on the risk of improperly canned food, and they may not be as easily able to bounce back from botulism either.
Also, unless you have a very unusual lifestyle, you do not go rock climbing or cave diving 365 days a year. Most people eat more than daily, and if you are canning regularly, eating your own...
Also, unless you have a very unusual lifestyle, you do not go rock climbing or cave diving 365 days a year. Most people eat more than daily, and if you are canning regularly, eating your own canned goods on a daily basis is very plausible.
Exponentials pile up very fast. Doing something moderately dangerous on rare occasions is almost certainly far safer than doing something mostly, but not completely, safe on a regular basis.
I have some family members that have been ignoring the rules of canning for years like this.
Most of the time they are fine. Occasionally, they end up in the hospital from a severe bout of "food sickness" that is totally unrelated to their canning processes.
The best thing I can do is make sure to not eat food that they prepare at gatherings, make sure my kid knows not to eat their food, and gracefully accept their offers of canned food and throw it directly in the garbage when I get home.
I hate food waste. Unfortunately, I consider the food wasted as soon as they put it in unsanitary jars.
Jesus, some people have to be "rebels" about the stupidest things.
In a similar vein is the "raw water" trend that has predictably sickened people on multiple occasions.
Today I learned. : (
I was trained as a young hiker to boil and or treat water unless it came from a safe source. I read the ghost map, the narrative nonfiction story of the discovery of the causes of cholera and the tainted well in London. This is horrifying.
Just wait until you hear about the people who eat raw organs. 😅
https://www.verywellhealth.com/raw-meat-diet-trend-7094597#:~:text=The%20online%20obsession%20with%20eating,ribeye%2C%20and%20even%20bull%20testicles.
I happily eat sashimi but not the rest of it.
This is exactly the spirit of the Darwin Awards
I'm sitting here realizing when they say "rebel" they mean lazy and flippant. There's no good excuse to not do these things safely, from canning to sterilizing water.
Most of the people cited in the article have takes a little more nuanced than that. The founder, for instance, primarily uses regular salt instead of canning salt and doesn't put in citric acid when she's canning tomatoes. (I'd guess that she's pressure canning the tomatoes.)
Yikety yikes yikes! I live in area with a lot of agriculture and selling home-canned goods is super popular at farmer's market and other local shops here. They often carry a label stating the risk of botulism due to them being made in a home/cottage industry, so I guess it's their way of skirting liability? Sometimes I receive some jellies from these type of setups as gifts, but I am so wary to trust something made by random person in a random kitchen that I don't know. It feels like a sin to toss them, but I just have no trust in it being safe. I recently bought a jar of preserved pickles from a local shop thinking it had more "vetting" only to have the jar open without a pop. Into the trash it went only to be replaced by some Bubbies.
Throwing out something that doesn't pop is only common sense.
But throwing out jams and jellies that look good is mostly just a waste.
Jams and jellies are a food that can be eyeballed - if it looks and smells fine, it's fine.
They are too acid and too sweet for anything really problematic to grow in, and mould - although icky to look at - won't do you any real harm as it is easy to spot before throwing it out.
(Obviously if anything is bubbling or moulded or murky or smelly, something has clearly gone wrong and out it goes!)
However your point about consuming food made in a random kitchen is an increasingly valid one.
As people lose the habit of cooking routinely, a lot of the old protective behaviours are - paradoxically - dropping away, and home cooked food is not as safe as it once was.
The intersection between industry and the home is an uncomfortable one - does that chicken have the ability to cross-contaminate otherwise safe food? Was that insecticide used in a safe way near the kitchen counter? Is that gluten free item actually free of gluten?
It makes me sad, but I am also less enthusiastic about home-made food than I once was.
I think if they were jams or jellies that I had made myself or came from someone I knew well, I would be more trusting. The ones in question went through some temperature fluctuations I think and were runny in a weird way in addition from coming somewhere I was unsure of. It sorta ties into my concerns with random individuals undertaking home canning and then selling their goods to the public. I don't know how well they cleaned their work area and tools or if they measured the ratios accordingly. And these concerns seem to match your own for good reason!
A fair number of people have probably gotten food poisoning from a restaurant; a place regulated by food inspections. Cottage industry doesn't have that regulation so you are unfortunately taking a higher risk by purchasing a food item made in a home kitchen.
At least where I live, you have to have an inspected kitchen to sell prepared foods at a farmer's market. Even simple things that you couldn't possibly screw up like honey need an inspection if sold anywhere other than on your property. It's possible that the canned food at the farmer's market where you are is the same and just putting a warning on the label to be safe or possibly as a requirement. Granted I don't know if inspections also check the preparation of the food since I haven't gone through it myself, they may just check the kitchen itself.
I did some research in my own state due to this comment and it appears to be a case by case basis depending on the Farmer's Market you sell at. If it's something big held in one of the larger population centers it appears you have to have a permit to sell your food goods. For all else such as yearly festivals, local events and pop-ups, or the small town produce stand that sells locally made canned goods; there appears to be no regulation.
It's wild that it's event to event to me. Illinois used to limit cottage industry to just farmers market but now allows direct sales. The laws vary widely state to state though and so does enforcement. Facebook taco sales were a thing in my city long before it was even possibly legit.
Found this though for more detail
https://cottagefoodlaws.com/
I worked with one girl whose mother in law "canned" pickles. She wouldn't use recipes, measurements or ratios; she'd just boil stuff and put them in jars. When she noticed a foam starting to form on top, she'd open the jar, scrape it off, and put the lid back on and put it in the cupboard. If you were to tell her that it's unsanitary and could make someone sick, she would get absolutely belligerent, super defensive and offended. I don't understand it, personally. If you're going to go through the trouble of doing something, why not do it right? Especially when the risk of doing it wrong is botulism. I don't get it.
This is something that I struggled with while working at a homeless shelter that accepted food donations from the public.
Although we couldn't use home-canned food since we couldn't vouch for how safely it was prepared, we accepted it gracefully and promptly disposed of it. Throwing it away always bothered me, but the thought of rolling the dice with someone else's health bothered a lot more.
Excellent write up in response to this thread! With you bringing up the raw milk trends, it eerily parallels some of the crazy stuff that I would see on the Fermentation subreddit when I was first getting into it. One of the best books for Fermentation that they would recommend over there, The Art of Fermentation by Sandoor Ellix Katz, is written by an author who supports the raw milk movement. It's frustrating that a revered resource can also be an accidental introduction into these dangerous trends.
I own a copy and have used it frequently in making kraut or attempting other ferments, but I noticed how his passion for good gut bacteria from ferments trailed off into some dangerous areas especially raw milk. When a so called expert in one thing starts touting the so called benefits of something that has been out of the public mind, those who don't better start picking it up. My own copy has other book recommendations from the publisher in the back and one is for raw milk.
It feels oddly similar to the alt-right pipeline where it begins as something somewhat not insidious, but depending on where your research goes it can lead you to some questionable "experts." The alt-milk pipeline.
My favorite version of this was raw water, which is extremely foolish. I get that "blindly trust all experts" isn't a great position, but at least some experts actually have, you know, expertise.
Skepticism can be healthy but I'd say that blindly trusting experts will lead to a safer life than blindly distrusting all experts like the current trend.
I have a theory that society goes through cycles of "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to certain things like rules and regulations but that society also doesn't understand cause and effect. This leads to thinking like "Why should my kid get a polio vaccination? I've never known anyone with polio!"
USDA rules and guidelines are a result of deaths, diseases, injuries and a whole host of unpleasant occurences. One could argue that a certain rule may be overzealous and extreme but I'd bet that such a rule exists because someone died or a bunch of people could have died if they had co-morbidities and they got lucky and "only" got hospitalzied.
Canning salt is just salt that does not have an anti-caking agent added. Using regular salt isn't a safety concern, it just means the result might be cloudy. Page 1-28 It's not like pink preserving salts where using the wrong salt is going to cause harm.
The acidity thing is super common in YouTube videos. It's rare to see anyone add acid to canned tomato sauces, and it's really concerning that there's not enough pushback about it.
"Smell it" is terrible advice for food safety. You smell the food. The three options are
Yeah, I had a whole thing after reading that canning salt thing. "Canning salt is a thing? Why do you need a special salt?" And then it's just regular salt, the kind I had been buying for years without "canning" in the name.
I kind of agree with you about the smell test being bad advice, but I take a little bit of umbrage with your reasoning. Inhaling a little bit of mould spores is probably going to be better for your health than eating the colony unwittingly. But you're more likely to have spotted the mold visually before needing to smell it. Number 3 is very reasonable, though.
As someone who has a growing interest in a different type of food preservation, fermentation, canning is not something I feel confident trying due to the higher risks of botulism. With fermentation there are a couple of sound rules that will keep you safe (salt %, keeping stuff below the brine, NOMA's bag method), but canning relies more on proper sanitization and acidity levels.
The brazenness of some of the folks in this article is deeply concerning and I can't help but feel I would have been one of the ones calling out the dangers in their "rebellious" methodology. Having worked in the restaurant industry in the past, food safety is pretty much nailed into my brain and I am very by the books in my own kitchen. But yet, there's a fair concession that the USDA's standards might need some revising after so long.
For those in the US, I highly recommend reaching out to your local Agricultural University/College's Extension offices. They have done some great work into researching new recipes and methods that are vetted and safe. Plus they are generally a great resource for local Agricultural things in your area that you wouldn't have considered like foraging and more.
Luckily in the US there's a lot of work about safe canning practices, and there are some genuinely great sources of information.
The USDA's Complete Guide to Home Canning links to the National Center for Home Food Preservation's website which has a comprehensive, easy to understand, guide to all things canning.
Follow the recipes and instructions and you'll be okay.
And the other source is the Ball Blue Book guide to canning.
[EDIT: it's good to see the linked article does include links to these sites]
Thank you for sharing out a great list of resources to help others in this thread!
There's an excellent Adam Ragusea video on lacto-fermentation that includes an interview with the Director of the National Center for Home Food Preservation! Dr. Carla Schwan provides some excellent commentary on the science and risks along with discussing canning compared to fermentation.
It's not really as hard or dangerous as they make it sound. I have a water bath canner for things like jellies and tomatoes. I have a pressure canner for less acidic foods like meat. As you know from working in the food industry, temperature and oxygen are the 2 main factors that you're interested in. As long as you hit the right temperature foemthenright amount of time for your specific food, and have the proper gap between the top of the food and the seal, then you're good to go. If the gap is right, the temp is right, and the lid pops when it seals, then there's nothing to worry about.
I grew up watching my mom can because we had a huge garden. I was still a little intimidated the first time I did it myself. After a couple times it's not nearly as intimidating.
What kinds of meats do you can? This has always puzzled me. My mother did/does a fair bit of canning but it's always vegetables or fruits. The phrase "canned meat" just conjurors images of spam to me.
I've canned chicken and venison by themselves, but mainly it's been stews, chili, or spaghetti sauce with meat in them. You can also can "Hamburger Helper" type homemade meals. To be clear, not actual Hamburger Helper, just meals in that same vein.
I remember the Danger Zone well haha! I've certainly been interested in canning myself due to the overlap with fermentation, but I think the equipment required has intimidated me. Sounds weird especially for a simple hot water bath, but I think part of it is overcoming what I think is a mountain of effort in my head. Pressure cookers also irrationally scare me despite having an Instant Pot, but I think my newer model has broken my trust in them.
I REALLY recommend a stove top pressure cooker with jiggler weights for controlling the pressure. The fancy new electric ones are less reliable and not as accurate.
Personally, I think there is a middle way.
The USDA has become so rigid about canning that it is almost disturbing.
Many of their recommendations are quite unwieldy, and in some instances unnecessary.
Things like jams and jellies are generally low-risk foods and so can be made and safely consumed in ways that are time honoured; the modern ultra-super-conservative methods of preservation often result in an objectively worse product and with no particular benefit in terms of food safety.
On the other hand, only an insane person would mess with low-acid canning and the like. There are genuine hazards with this, and gauging what is safe and what is not requires either a very expert eye or solid guidelines in order to avoid them.
I've successfully canned and preserved food all my life and would like to think that there is a balance to be struck between recklessness and paranoia.
However given the fairly worrying choices some people seem to be making (even in this discussion), I guess it's better for the USDA to be safe than sorry.
I definitely agree there is a middle ground here. The USDA regulations and the strict adherence to the tested recipes can absolutely feel stifling and do often read as overdone in the warnings. But the flip side unfortunately is the people who have gone in the opposite direction with their push back.
I have been canning and preserving food for years and also am a trained microbiologist. I understand both sides of the argument here well. It is unbelievingly frustrating as a home cook to feel like there isn’t freedom to experiment with a recipe. Especially with home grown produce and varietals that may have different acid levels. The whole canning salt vs regular salt thing is a particular annoyance of mine. However, I definitely know the horror stories of what can happen when things go wrong. Even when I follow every rule I still get an ache of paranoia about the what ifs.
With the resurgence of home canning and other preservation methods such as fermenting, curing, and aging I would absolutely love to see the USDA revamp the communication about safe practices. Unfortunately, in the interest of having to always speak to the most clueless among us, I don’t have the highest hopes much will change.
As the saying goes there is a disturbing large over lap between the dumbest tourists and the smartest bears.
I don't have much experience canning, outside of making a few jars of pickles.
I did however, used to live in a town which suffered a botulism outbreak. I think it was almost ten years ago now, and I remember it blowing my mind. I didn't think people actually got botulism anymore.. But a local church has a potluck, and someone's home canned potatoes were tainted and quite a few people were hospitalized and one person even died.
These people are playing with fire.
I first heard about this kind of thing when the mods of r/canning got removed over the API dispute. Apparently there are quite a lot of people out there that are using and promoting unsafe canning methods — I’m curious what the state of r/canning is now, as the self-proclaimed largest online canning community, now potentially without competent moderators. I certainly wouldn’t be able to judge whether the content is now safe for human consumption.
That's certainly concerning that a mod change up can inadvertently create a food safety risk. I'm wondering if r/Fermentation is in a similar state because they were already tiptoeing that line already. Honey garlic was a big craze over there, but despite however much research I did, I could not find any research to assert its safety or vetting in method. One individual fermented coconut which turns out to be extremely dangerous, but both OP and mods didn't remove the post or update with a warning.
What’s dangerous about fermented coconut?
Risk of bongkrekic acid produced by B. cocovenenans, a fatty acid loving bacteria that particularly likes coconut and corn.
Ah, okay. Thanks!
Right out of the gate, this article has factual mistakes. There has NOT been one method for generations. If you've ever seen the "paraffin wax" beside the canning jars and lids at your local grocery store, that's there because someone's grandma didn't die and ended up having children that just listen to what granny mentioned. Even the sealing rings themselves have changed in the past few decades.
Otherwise, this is why you don't accept canned goods from people you don't know. Anyone can have a blast and send their can of mushy spaghetti to be "tested", but one can free of bacteria is not science. The article is a bit light on calling out these people on this point.
In terms of muh freedoms, the people clamping down and telling you how to can foods are not your family members who will end up with food poisoning, as I've luckily discovered via a rural family members unique food management choices. Those people are scientists and the guidelines exist for a reason.
Wow, I didn't know there was such a movement.
I have to say, people these days take food too seriously, but there are still some rules that need to be followed. I'll eat food well past expiring using the sniff test, float eggs to see if they're bad, eat dough raw, practice the 10 second rule and cut off mold. I also know these things all have risks that I shouldn't take with other peoples lives when cooking for them and certainly shouldn't tell other people they're safe doing those things.
I also don't expect the hot food I just dumped into a jar to last long and certainly wouldn't call it canning. It kind of defeats the purpose if you don't sterilize it properly. They sounds as bad as people who don't get that petting their dog while cooking can contaminate food as much as touching raw chicken. My Great Great Grandma didn't wash her hands before cooking so it must be fine!
I made some squash soup that I canned last year that went bad in the jars and I didn't know what went wrong. Looks like you can't can squash. Now I know not to try again
Squash is a very low-acid food and can be tricky to can successfully.
Pickled squash - with lots of vinegar - is safe and easy to do.
Soup, which is low acid, is technically harder and definitely more dangerous in terms of possible botulism risk.
However if it just 'went bad' it's likely it wasn't processed properly.
It will obviously destroy the texture of any vegetables in them, but freezing is generally a better way to preserve soups than canning them.
Low acid foods can be done using a pressure canning setup. It's canning, but using a pressure cooker to get the cans above 240f. This sterilizes the food.
Out of curiosity, is it possible to do that with a regular pressure cooker, like an instant pot?
It is not recommended and the CDC even discourages it.
I don't think so. You need to know the exact pressure since that will tell you the temperature. Pressure canning setups have a real pressure gauge.
Yes, asterisk. But really no. Most pressure canning recipes assume 15psi. Instant pots on high only peak at 15, and spend most of their time at 10-11. Which will, if you're at sea level, juuuust hits the 240F minimum for killing botulism spores. Just. But without an actual gauge, you won't know what your particular one is doing.
In my case, I only can stuff that is high acid anyway, so it's fine. But if I were going to can low-acid, low-sugar things, I wouldn't trust the instant pot to get me there.
Why would being at sea level matter if the interior pressure is 10-11 psi either way?
In addition to @DanBC's comment: the measurement of PSI is absolute in one sense, but relative in another.
10 psi always means the same amount of force is being measured. (10 pounds of force per square inch)
However that same force is being measured relative to it's surrounding environment. I assume you know that water boils at different temperatures based on elevation. The pressure canner increases pressure to allow you to achieve a higher water temperature. If you're at 0ft elevation, you need 10-15psi so that the water can reach a high enough temperatures. If your house is at 5000ft elevation, you need higher psi so the water can reach the same target temperature.
TLDR you need higher psi for the same reason you boil an egg longer in Vail Colorado than you do in San Fransisco.
The interior pressure is not 10-11 psi at higher altitudes.
https://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/uga/using_press_canners.html#gsc.tab=0
Good to know if I try again
This, like most food safety rules is very good advice on a society-wide scale, but also something I don't particularly find concerning on an individual scale. If something is safe say 99.8% of the time and you're doing it yourself you might end up sick a little less than once a year, and with the convenience or reduced waste of whatever that is, maybe it's worth it for you. But a restaurant serving 200 people a day is getting someone sick about every other day, and a food processing plant could potentially get hundreds or thousands of people ill.
Growing up my mom would get tomorrow's meat out right after dinner and thaw it for about 22 hours at room temperature. We would leave pizza sitting unrefrigerated for 2+ days and still eat it and I've eaten a lot of food out of dumpsters or off the floor in my life. And I'm sure it got me sick sometimes, but it's a risk I'm OK with. If you wanna can using untested methods go for it, but maybe don't sell or give it away, and probably keep it away from anyone under 8, over 65 or otherwise unwell.
I mean free climbing cliffs or cave diving is also stupid and dangerous to me but if that's what some people are into I really don't care. Risk tolerance is such a personal thing, I don't think it's something we should try and deal with at a personal level.
There is also a huge difference between rock climbing with safety gear and free climbing.
Considering that people who can their own food also usually give canned items away to other people and feed their own families with it I'd say it isn't just a personal thing. If we go climbing together and you think I've anchored in the safety rope properly but I've chosen to not anchor anything at all was that your personal choice to go without a safety rope?
Like another commentor on this thread mentioned we need signs to tell people not to fall into the Grand Canyon--and they still do.
If "only getting a little sick" was the worst case scenario it wouldn't be a big deal. However, hospitalizations can potentially financially ruin your average family as well as, you know, the risk of death..
The other very real concern is that very same scale you talk about in your first sentence. If scientifically unsound methods are adopted and accepted at home then those same people will push for things like raw milk to be allowed for public consumption. While they may not have ever had an issue with Farmer Bob's raw milk that is barely a day old, they will not accept that Farmer Jimmy doesn't follow safety protocols that has ramifications 72+ hours later after coming from the cow that could potentially kill old Gramma Ellie.
You might be thinking that I am looking at this one issue in the extreme--and perhaps I am. In the big picture, though, I am seeing this HUGE backslide in our society. Things that were outlawed or regulated for obvious reasons are being introduced again and presented as some benefit or boon to us: child labor, education and erasing of history/teaching that slavery was actually good for them, anti-vaxx, etc. They're seemingly always touted as "us against the government" and as acceptable risks because of "personal choice" which has the added benefit of eroding faith in our country/government/institutions/fellow humans.
Regulations are written in blood. Even if we don't know whose blood or how much blood they were still written in blood.
So I feel like you're kinda unfairly conflating my point with a whole heap of either unrelated things or things I specifically didn't argue for. I'm not pro child labor or anti teaching about slavery and I specified not selling it or giving it away/ to kids. People die and get hurt from a million different things. Spending hours everyday sitting on the couch watching TV is probably just as bad if not worse than a lot of these canning practices for your health. I wouldn't promote doing that but I'm also not like "we need to stop people from being allowed to do that". It's their lives, and if that's the gamble they wanna take who am I to say they can't. Again, as long as it's for personal consumption. The harbor is safe but it's not what ships are built for, and all that.
A big part of the problem is that it isn't necessarily limited to personal consumption. See the comment below by @meech.
Let's not forget that these people rarely are the only ones who consume their canned food -- they almost definitely feed it to their immediate family (including children) and probably gift it to other family members. They may also sell it at a farmer's market. Most of these people probably aren't consciously taking on the risk of improperly canned food, and they may not be as easily able to bounce back from botulism either.
Also, unless you have a very unusual lifestyle, you do not go rock climbing or cave diving 365 days a year. Most people eat more than daily, and if you are canning regularly, eating your own canned goods on a daily basis is very plausible.
Exponentials pile up very fast. Doing something moderately dangerous on rare occasions is almost certainly far safer than doing something mostly, but not completely, safe on a regular basis.